MUScoop

Whether or not the "grace period is over" it is absolutely right that in the next four years Shaka is 100% in control of the program - all his guys - all his development - all his choices. So, what results do we need to see for you to still say Shaka's seat is as ice-cold in April 2029 as it is this year?

For me, no surprise, we need to see some deep tourney success (for me - FF) - this is why we made the change. If we wanted a clean program that keeps us in the tourney convo most years we could have hung on to "try harder". Winning a couple NCAAT games over a 4 year span where we're the heavy favorite and no more isn't really much better IMO. At this point, Shaka's NCAAT struggles are a feature, not a bug. If he can figure out how to get over that hurdle in the next 4 keep him forever - but if our program's aspirations under Shaka top out at "hopefully we make the 2nd weekend every once in a while" I'm not sold. 

Marquette needs to become a consistent S16 team and then once in a while make a deeper run.  Gonzaga has been to two final fours, but the most impressive thing about Mark Few is the amount of S16s he has been to.  Jim Boeheim is one of the greatest coaches ever, coached 47 years, and made 5 final fours.  So that is about once a decade.  Maybe Shaka can do better than my expectations, but I'd like to compete for conference titles and get out of opening weekend on a consistent basis and life will be pretty good in my book. 

If nit the bunson burner should already be firmly placed under somebody's ass.

I'm between the second and third options. If we continue to get bids every year, half as protected seeds, I fully believe the E8/F4 results will follow. For years guys like Jay, Bennett, and Drew were the guys who always got in but didn't win the big one. Hell, I'm old enough to remember when they said that about Coach K. Keep positioning yourself in the regular season and that breakthrough will come.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 22, 2025, 08:00:37 AMI'm between the second and third options. If we continue to get bids every year, half as protected seeds, I fully believe the E8/F4 results will follow. For years guys like Jay, Bennett, and Drew were the guys who always got in but didn't win the big one. Hell, I'm old enough to remember when they said that about Coach K. Keep positioning yourself in the regular season and that breakthrough will come.

Sure, but if at some point the breakthrough doesn't come, then you're stuck in slight better than Wojoville.

K was in the title game in year 6 at Duke.
Jay was EE in year 5 and FF in year 8.
Bennett EE in year 7.

Quote from: 1SE on March 22, 2025, 08:11:25 AMSure, but if at some point the breakthrough doesn't come, then you're stuck in slight better than Wojoville.

K was in the title game in year 6 at Duke.
Jay was EE in year 5 and FF in year 8.
Bennett EE in year 7.

And the narrative around K was that he couldn't win until he knocked off UNLV in year 10. Jay's F4 was long forgotten and there were calls for him to be fired in 2012, along with fan frustration when he earned 1/2 seeds and bowed out in the first weekend in 2014 & 2015. And Bennett was the poster child for "his teams always flame out" until the insane endgame heroics against Purdue, Auburn, & Texas Tech.

If you really think this is "slight better than Wojoville" I have to assume you were born in 2020. We're in a much, much better place than we were, while still being short of where we want to be. The program is on par with where Buzz had it, probably slightly ahead. The difference is Buzz got the huge shot from DJO (after a regular season worse than any Shaka has had), managed the comeback on Murray State, and had that final frenetic minute against Davidson.

Quote from: 1SE on March 22, 2025, 08:11:25 AMSure, but if at some point the breakthrough doesn't come, then you're stuck in slight better than Wojoville.

K was in the title game in year 6 at Duke.
Jay was EE in year 5 and FF in year 8.
Bennett EE in year 7.

Slightly better than Wojo is nonsense.  Look up cataclysmic disaster in the dictionary.  That's where we were under Wojo. 

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 22, 2025, 08:20:47 AMAnd the narrative around K was that he couldn't win until he knocked off UNLV in year 10. Jay's F4 was long forgotten and there were calls for him to be fired in 2012, along with fan frustration when he earned 1/2 seeds and bowed out in the first weekend in 2014 & 2015. And Bennett was the poster child for "his teams always flame out" until the insane endgame heroics against Purdue, Auburn, & Texas Tech.

If you really think this is "slight better than Wojoville" I have to assume you were born in 2020. We're in a much, much better place than we were, while still being short of where we want to be. The program is on par with where Buzz had it, probably slightly ahead. The difference is Buzz got the huge shot from DJO (after a regular season worse than any Shaka has had), managed the comeback on Murray State, and had that final frenetic minute against Davidson.

In other words, multiple examples of Buzz's players rising to the occasion and playing with poise in the biggest moments.  We're still waiting on that under Shaka other than Colorado last year.

We made three consecutive S16, with an E8 among that under Buzz.  Shaka's not "slightly ahead".  Get real.

But enjoying the new narrative- hey, he's better than Wojoke.  Sit down and shut up now! 

There's nothing magic or special about coaching in March. You keep getting high seeds to give yourself the best chance at making a run,  eventually it will happen.

If you think MU would ever fire a coach that maskes the tourney every year,  you would be mistaken

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 22, 2025, 08:31:37 AMThere's nothing magic or special about coaching in March. You keep getting high seeds to give yourself the best chance at making a run,  eventually it will happen.

If you think MU would ever fire a coach that maskes the tourney every year,  you would be mistaken

I 90% agree with you.  At the end of the day it's about getting a high protected seed.  That said, we've played well in one Shaka coached tournament game.  We've played pretty poorly in the other games, including our 1st rds as a #2. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on March 22, 2025, 08:39:19 AMI 90% agree with you.  At the end of the day it's about getting a high protected seed.  That said, we've played well in one Shaka coached tournament game.  We've played pretty poorly in the other games, including our 1st rds as a #2. 

Tyler injury and going 4/31 from 3 the following year, both against teams that went to the final 4.

Not saying Shaka shouldn't have some accountability but if your star gets hurt or shots don't fall I don't see a ton you can do.

If the level of recruiting doesn't improve there will be no tournament every year.  Look at Hurley's incoming class

Shaka has done a lot of good things, and we are in way better shape than with Wojo.

BUT ... he has had no success whatsoever in the NCAAT.  He has two 2/15 wins. Wow
And a win v. Colorado

Otherwise:
Losing to NC by about 100 points, and terrible games / losses v. MSU, NCST and yesterday

Let's not forget... he's here cuz TX was going to fire him for not winning a single NCAAT game.

And ... the cupboard is bare for next season.  His recruiting has been poor at best


Do we really need THREE " project " big men ?

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 22, 2025, 08:27:54 AMIn other words, multiple examples of Buzz's players rising to the occasion and playing with poise in the biggest moments.  We're still waiting on that under Shaka other than Colorado last year.

We made three consecutive S16, with an E8 among that under Buzz.  Shaka's not "slightly ahead".  Get real.

But enjoying the new narrative- hey, he's better than Wojoke.  Sit down and shut up now! 

Dude, if you think that 2011 season was better than any under Shaka, you're still drunk from last night. Buzz had 5 NBA players (Jimmy, Jae, DJO, Buycks, Blue) and barely made the tourney. He had one year in his first four (2012) that was close to Shaka's years 2 & 3. But no, his best year in that span (3-seed, S16) was still not better than Shaka's (2-seed, S16).

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 22, 2025, 08:27:54 AMIn other words, multiple examples of Buzz's players rising to the occasion and playing with poise in the biggest moments.  We're still waiting on that under Shaka other than Colorado last year.

We made three consecutive S16, with an E8 among that under Buzz.  Shaka's not "slightly ahead".  Get real.

But enjoying the new narrative- hey, he's better than Wojoke.  Sit down and shut up now! 

I want what we had in the Buzz years. That's where it felt like the breakthrough was coming before it came crashing down.

I worry about his stubbornness with recruiting.

Why are we even comparing and bringing up the Wojo years? Is that the standard for comparing ourselves to? Or should it be similar spending programs?

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 22, 2025, 08:59:57 AMDude, if you think that 2011 season was better than any under Shaka, you're still drunk from last night. Buzz had 5 NBA players (Jimmy, Jae, DJO, Buycks, Blue) and barely made the tourney. He had one year in his first four (2012) that was close to Shaka's years 2 & 3. But no, his best year in that span (3-seed, S16) was still not better than Shaka's (2-seed, S16).

Jamil made the NBA if you're counting Vander. I don't know who you're attributing Wes, Jerel and Juan to but they all played for Buzz as well.

The rest I agree with.

Quote from: WolfganghisKhan on March 22, 2025, 09:15:02 AMWhy are we even comparing and bringing up the Wojo years? Is that the standard for comparing ourselves to? Or should it be similar spending programs?

Shaka's results are getting more and more difficult to defend.  Hence, he's better than Wojo for crying out loud! 

I don't ever see a day where Shaka's seat gets warm at MU. His floor is far too high for that to happen. That aside though if he wants to be considered one of the all time great MU coaches he's going to need some deep tourney runs and his early exits are hard to ignore

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 22, 2025, 09:24:08 AMShaka's results are getting more and more difficult to defend.  Hence, he's better than Wojo for crying out loud! 

They don't need defending at all.

Quote from: GB Warrior on March 22, 2025, 09:04:23 AMI want what we had in the Buzz years. That's where it felt like the breakthrough was coming before it came crashing down.

I worry about his stubbornness with recruiting.

This is where I'm at, right now I feel like we're basically on par with that minus the tournament.

seeds 6, 6, 11, 3, 3 avg 5.8 vs 9, 2, 2, 7 avg 5

Big East standings

5, 5, 9, 2, 1 avg 4.4 Vs 5, 1, 2, 4 avg 3

I think next year's going to be rough, and there probably needs to be some tweaks in the system long term

Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 22, 2025, 09:21:23 AMJamil made the NBA if you're counting Vander. I don't know who you're attributing Wes, Jerel and Juan to but they all played for Buzz as well.

The rest I agree with.

Jamil didn't play until 2012 though.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 22, 2025, 08:59:57 AMDude, if you think that 2011 season was better than any under Shaka, you're still drunk from last night. Buzz had 5 NBA players (Jimmy, Jae, DJO, Buycks, Blue) and barely made the tourney. He had one year in his first four (2012) that was close to Shaka's years 2 & 3. But no, his best year in that span (3-seed, S16) was still not better than Shaka's (2-seed, S16).

Buycks took 2 years to make the NBA and 6 after leaving MU to play more than 14 games. Vander and DJO played a combined 17 NBA games.  Butler and Jae were 2nd rounders coming out.  No one predicted in their wildest dreams how Butler's career took off. 

The only Buzz NCAA underperformance was a two pt loss in 2010.  He won a first round game without Dominic in 2009.  His teams continued to be tough, clutch, and poised when the season hung in the balance. 

The one and only accomplishment Shaka holds over Buzz is the BET championship. 

Buzz didn't way outperform Shaka to current, but is still ahead at this juncture. 

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 22, 2025, 09:31:41 AMJamil didn't play until 2012 though.

Oh misread your post thought you were referencing all Buzz's NBA guys not just the 2011 ones

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 22, 2025, 09:26:47 AMThey don't need defending at all.

Sure they do and are.  Another NCAAT underperformance will do that.  Been a long time since even close to this many Wojo references

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 22, 2025, 08:20:47 AMAnd the narrative around K was that he couldn't win until he knocked off UNLV in year 10. Jay's F4 was long forgotten and there were calls for him to be fired in 2012, along with fan frustration when he earned 1/2 seeds and bowed out in the first weekend in 2014 & 2015. And Bennett was the poster child for "his teams always flame out" until the insane endgame heroics against Purdue, Auburn, & Texas Tech.

If you really think this is "slight better than Wojoville" I have to assume you were born in 2020. We're in a much, much better place than we were, while still being short of where we want to be. The program is on par with where Buzz had it, probably slightly ahead. The difference is Buzz got the huge shot from DJO (after a regular season worse than any Shaka has had), managed the comeback on Murray State, and had that final frenetic minute against Davidson.

Oh boy. This will now start more comparisons of Shaka to Wright, K, etc. Would like to see him get to Al s level, but that would require a different strategy. Meanwhile the Hurleys, Pitinos, McDermotts are quickly passing us by.

The question is: do you want how this season went to become a pattern?

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 22, 2025, 08:20:47 AMAnd the narrative around K was that he couldn't win until he knocked off UNLV in year 10. Jay's F4 was long forgotten and there were calls for him to be fired in 2012, along with fan frustration when he earned 1/2 seeds and bowed out in the first weekend in 2014 & 2015. And Bennett was the poster child for "his teams always flame out" until the insane endgame heroics against Purdue, Auburn, & Texas Tech.

If you really think this is "slight better than Wojoville" I have to assume you were born in 2020. We're in a much, much better place than we were, while still being short of where we want to be. The program is on par with where Buzz had it, probably slightly ahead. The difference is Buzz got the huge shot from DJO (after a regular season worse than any Shaka has had), managed the comeback on Murray State, and had that final frenetic minute against Davidson.

Oh boy. This will now start more comparisons of Shaka to Wright, K, etc. Would like to see him get to Al s level, but that would require a different strategy. Meanwhile the Hurleys, Pitinos, McDermotts are quickly passing us by.

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 22, 2025, 08:31:37 AMThere's nothing magic or special about coaching in March. You keep getting high seeds to give yourself the best chance at making a run,  eventually it will happen.

If you think MU would ever fire a coach that maskes the tourney every year,  you would be mistaken

You are right about that. But next years roster is not a tourney roster, unless Freshmen come through. Shaka does not play freshmen much.

Quote from: willie warrior on March 22, 2025, 09:38:45 AMOh boy. This will now start more comparisons of Shaka to Wright, K, etc. Would like to see him get to Al s level, but that would require a different strategy. Meanwhile the Hurleys, Pitinos, McDermotts are quickly passing us by.

It's just the reality that until a coach cuts down nets in April, they will always be regarded as an underachiever. Hell, people still say that about Mark Few, and he's going for a 10th straight S16 with two runner up appearances.

Maybe Shaka will never get there, but he could go to the next five Final Fours and if he doesn't cut nets at one of them, you'll still be bitching about what he can't do rather than acknowledging what he did.

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 22, 2025, 09:34:47 AMThe only Buzz NCAA underperformance was a two pt loss in 2010. 

Umm I think you missed us getting embarrassed by a Syracuse team in 2013.

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 22, 2025, 09:34:47 AMHe won a first round game without Dominic in 2009.  His teams continued to be tough, clutch, and poised when the season hung in the balance. 

Poor buzz only had 3 of the best non Al players in program history one of which was an all American to rely on. And what do you mean hung tough when the season was in the balance? With Junior Lazar, senior Jerel and Wes he lost the last 3 games, went 1-1 in the big east tournament, and then lost to Mizzou rapier getting James back. I didn't realize 2-5 is an acceptable record with Jerel, Wes and Lazar

Quote from: warriors141 on March 22, 2025, 09:39:39 AMThe question is: do you want how this season went to become a pattern?

Absolutely not. I think we could stand another mid season and then expect a return to a top 5 seed. No "just missed the tournament" not if you aren't willing to take transfers.

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 22, 2025, 09:38:32 AMSure they do and are.  Another NCAAT underperformance will do that.  Been a long time since even close to this many Wojo references

Were not nearly good enough of a program to be turning ours noses up at a 7 seed season.

Championship , it's been almost 50 years!

Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 22, 2025, 09:44:07 AMUmm I think you missed us getting embarrassed by a Syracuse team in 2013.


Poor buzz only had 3 of the best non Al players in program history one of which was an all American to rely on. And what do you mean hung tough when the season was in the balance? With Junior Lazar, senior Jerel and Wes he lost the last 3 games, went 1-1 in the big east tournament, and then lost to Mizzou rapier getting James back. I didn't realize 2-5 is an acceptable record with Jerel, Wes and Lazar

They were a 3 seed and made the E8 in 2013. Do I actually need to expand to establish not an underperformance? 

The other point about record after losing Dominic and having a shell Dominic against 3 seed Missouri is even dumber. 

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 22, 2025, 09:49:30 AMWere not nearly good enough of a program to be turning ours noses up at a 7 seed season.

Oh, ok COLE.  How about a 3.5 to 4.5 pt favorite losing by 9?  We aren't "nearly good enough" to expect better than that either? 

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 22, 2025, 09:49:30 AMWere not nearly good enough of a program to be turning ours noses up at a 7 seed season.

Since they started seeding teams in 1979 we've been better than a 7 seed 13 times.

79, 94, 96, 02, 03, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 19, 23, 24

My takeaway is a program like Marquette needs a conference POY to get there given 8 of those had Mac, Wade, Crowder, Markus or Kolek.

Quote from: WolfganghisKhan on March 22, 2025, 09:15:02 AMWhy are we even comparing and bringing up the Wojo years? Is that the standard for comparing ourselves to? Or should it be similar spending programs?

The CoS uses the "Wojo comparison" as a gaslight to obscure their identity as previously being "Wojo-slurpers."

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 22, 2025, 09:52:05 AMThey were a 3 seed and made the E8 in 2013. Do I actually need to expand to establish not an underperformance? 

The other point about record after losing Dominic and having a shell Dominic against 3 seed Missouri is even dumber.

If you're going to complain a out being a 2 seed losing to NC State in the sweet 16 and not complains about buzz's 3 seed losing to 7 seed Florida in the sweet 16 or 4 seed Syracuse in the Elite 8 then yeah you need to admit you're cherry picking how you look at it.

As far as the other point it absolutely is not. Did we have a second team all American? Yes. Is Junior lazar > chase yes. Is senior Wes > Jop yes. You can't beat your chest about that team with most talent and experience and slam this one with less.

I don't

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 22, 2025, 09:55:21 AMOh, ok COLE.  How about a 3.5 to 4.5 pt favorite losing by 9?  We aren't "nearly good enough" to expect better than that either? 

I don't overreact to single game results postively or negatively.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 22, 2025, 10:09:32 AMIf you're going to complain a out being a 2 seed losing to NC State in the sweet 16 and not complains about buzz's 3 seed losing to 7 seed Florida in the sweet 16 or 4 seed Syracuse in the Elite 8 then yeah you need to admit you're cherry picking how you look at it.

As far as the other point it absolutely is not. Did we have a second team all American? Yes. Is Junior lazar > chase yes. Is senior Wes > Jop yes. You can't beat your chest about that team with most talent and experience and slam this one with less.

You don't lose a 4 year starter and your point guard at the most critical part of the season and not feel a tremendous impact.  Is this the hill you're really going to die on?  A loss that came down to the wire against a 3 seed in the second round?? 

NC State was a dumpster fire loss to an 11 seed. That's not close to what we lost to in 2012 or 13 and the comparison is ridiculous.

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 22, 2025, 10:16:38 AMI don't
I don't overreact to single game results postively or negatively.

No, the truth is you don't criticize who's in charge.  You refused to criticize Wojo either.  One of the slurpers that Point noted elsewhere. 

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 22, 2025, 10:20:37 AMYou don't lose a 4 year starter at the most critical part of the season and not feel a tremendous impact.  Is this the hill you're really going to die on?  A loss that came down to the wire against a 3 seed in the second round?? 

NC State was a dumpster fire loss to an 11 seed. That's not close to what we lost to in 2012 or 13 and the comparison is ridiculous.

Goal posts moving. It's gone from buzz under performed once to realizing he got upset by lower seeds two more times. Now those upsets just were t as bad because "I feel like it!" I'm as unhappy with the season as the next person but your moving goalposts and if you took a Time Machine to the 70s you'd be screaming about how terrible Al was outside of 74 and maybe 76.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 22, 2025, 10:31:01 AMGoal posts moving. It's gone from buzz under performed once to realizing he got upset by lower seeds two more times. Now those upsets just were t as bad because "I feel like it!" I'm as unhappy with the season as the next person but your moving goalposts and negativity is constantly so toxic that if you took a Time Machine to the 70s you'd be screaming about how terrible Al was outside of 74 and maybe 76.

I've been responding to your arguments! 

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 22, 2025, 10:16:38 AMI don't
I don't overreact to single game results postively or negatively.

At least you been consistent in your reaction to each of the 4 shitty post-season performances (CoS).

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 22, 2025, 10:24:58 AMNo, the truth is you don't criticize who's in charge.  You refused to criticize Wojo either.  One of the slurpers that Point noted elsewhere. 

I criticize the coach plenty. He should have known that Sean was going to be out and that Hamilton wasnt ready. Not addressing both of those limited our ceiling. The thing I like about Shaka is that he is reflective.  I trust he will learn from this.

I just recognize that weve gotten a 7 seed or better 13 times in 46 years. A performance well inside the top 3rd is not something that needs defending. I'm not satisfied,  I want more.  I still think it's reasonable to believe that Shaka can get us there

Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 22, 2025, 10:31:01 AMGoal posts moving. It's gone from buzz under performed once to realizing he got upset by lower seeds two more times. Now those upsets just were t as bad because "I feel like it!" I'm as unhappy with the season as the next person but your moving goalposts and if you took a Time Machine to the 70s you'd be screaming about how terrible Al was outside of 74 and maybe 76.

To help you further:

Lost in S16 as a 3 in 2012- performance at our seed.

Lost in E8 as a 3 in 2013- out performance of our seed. 

Lost in S16 as a 2 last year- underperformance of our seed, compounded by a dumpster fire performance against an 11 seed that needed a miraculous conference tournament to have even made the field. 

So your best argument is the gigantic, unheard of upsets of a 4 and 7 beating a 3 when they performed at and above their seed line both years? 

Quote from: MuggsyB on March 22, 2025, 08:23:44 AMSlightly better than Wojo is nonsense.  Look up cataclysmic disaster in the dictionary.  That's where we were under Wojo. 

Agree. Massive upgrade over Wojo.

The question in this thread is a really good one because it spells out what rabid fans expect from the program. Coach Shaka has spoiled us -- we're back to expecting great things annually. In effect, he has purged the Wojo, Dukiet, Dean and other years from our systems.

We were plagued this year by lack of bench strength and inside power. St. John's, UConn, Creighton and now New Mexico just bullied us inside. Also, we simply wore down because Coach Shaka had limited confidence in his bench.

Maybe I'm an outlier but if I've learned anything in life, there's what you tell the public (called "spin") and what you really do. Of course, Coach Shaka isn't going to telegraph any portal moves because he doesn't want to upset the returning, existing team, who he's counting on for development for the core of next year's team.

I'm not convinced Coach Shaka won't be in the portal, if he finds the right person for his team. He's got the "relationships" and "growth" down. What we need is Victory in March and April -- and Coach Shaka knows that better than any of us.

How does this conversation parlay to the "NCAAT is a crapshoot just gotta get there with a decent seed" crowd that hammered me last year?

This is antithetical to that.

I am team Shaka Lifetime Contract. The tourney success will come.

He should dip into the portal from time to time though. I think that piece was an effort to keep Kam / Oso / Tyler together.

Quote from: dgies9156 on March 22, 2025, 10:47:18 AMThe question in this thread is a really good one because it spells out what rabid fans expect from the program. Coach Shaka has spoiled us -- we're back to expecting great things annually. In effect, he has purged the Wojo, Dukiet, Dean and other years from our systems.

We were plagued this year by lack of bench strength and inside power. St. John's, UConn, Creighton and now New Mexico just bullied us inside. Also, we simply wore down because Coach Shaka had limited confidence in his bench.

Maybe I'm an outlier but if I've learned anything in life, there's what you tell the public (called "spin") and what you really do. Of course, Coach Shaka isn't going to telegraph any portal moves because he doesn't want to upset the returning, existing team, who he's counting on for development for the core of next year's team.

I'm not convinced Coach Shaka won't be in the portal, if he finds the right person for his team. He's got the "relationships" and "growth" down. What we need is Victory in March and April -- and Coach Shaka knows that better than any of us.

We have to get a knock down shooter brother dgies.  I think it's possible ZL, DO, and RP will take big jumps, but there are a lot of question marks.  It really depends how good our Frosh are. 

If he does number 3, his seat will be ice cold. I'm hoping we can get number 2.

If we want to be a top 25 program, I'm not sure number 3 gets us outside of that. Winning in March is hard and takes luck. We also didn't have great injury luck in March for the previous two years.

If we are going to focus on development, we are going to need some pretty big leaps though. There was a lot of hope for Owens before his offseason injury. I know we have some high potential freshman.

We really need Chase to take a leap on offense and hopefully Zaide can take a large leap.

Regarding the portal, suggesting it's antithetical to "culture" is honestly stupid.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't develop players, and Shaka has, but all hands on deck should be our process.  Where would some of these teams be without their impact transfers? 

Quote from: MuggsyB on March 22, 2025, 10:57:31 AMRegarding the portal, suggesting it's antithetical to "culture" is honestly stupid.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't develop players, and Shaka has, but all hands on deck should be our process.  Where would some of these teams be without their impact transfers? 

Bullseye Muggsy! 😊

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 22, 2025, 10:51:02 AMHow does this conversation parlay to the "NCAAT is a crapshoot just gotta get there with a decent seed" crowd that hammered me last year?

This is antithetical to that.

I am team Shaka Lifetime Contract. The tourney success will come.

He should dip into the portal from time to time though. I think that piece was an effort to keep Kam / Oso / Tyler together.

The CoS believes the tourney is a crapshoot when their better seeded team loses, even consistently. 

Quote from: MuggsyB on March 22, 2025, 10:53:57 AMWe have to get a knock down shooter brother dgies.  I think it's possible ZL, DO, and RP will take big jumps, but there are a lot of question marks.  It really depends how good our Frosh are.

I would rather have a bull that can get offensive rebounds and score in the paint.

Quote from: MuggsyB on March 22, 2025, 10:57:31 AMRegarding the portal, suggesting it's antithetical to "culture" is honestly stupid.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't develop players, and Shaka has, but all hands on deck should be our process.  Where would some of these teams be without their impact transfers? 

I agree with this.

I've never understood all the comments from those who suggest we should avoid transfers because it might scare off current players.

How good is our culture if it results in players becoming so fragile or so selfish that they put their own playing time ahead attempts to improve the team? That their response to being challenged by a potentially better player is to run away?

I suspect the board consensus is wrong about this. I strongly suspect a guys like Kam Jones and Stevie Mitchell and David Joplin would have welcomed all comers--they know that stiff competition every day in practice is not a threat to their playing time but an opportunity to get better and motivation to improve.

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 22, 2025, 10:46:09 AMTo help you further:

Lost in S16 as a 3 in 2012- performance at our seed.

Lost in E8 as a 3 in 2013- out performance of our seed. 

Lost in S16 as a 2 last year- underperformance of our seed, compounded by a dumpster fire performance against an 11 seed that needed a miraculous conference tournament to have even made the field. 

So your best argument is the gigantic, unheard of upsets of a 4 and 7 beating a 3 when they performed at and above their seed line both years? 

Let's take MU out of the equation. Your argument is tantamount to saying that Purdue in 2022 should be happy with the sweet 16 after losing to #15 seed st peters. Because they performed to seed and what happens opposite of you is irrelevant. But realistically, due to upsets, performance to seed doesn't happen in a vacuum and to say otherwise is ridiculous.

In 2012 given that Mizzou lost we become the top seed in that bracket, performance to seed is no longer sweet 16 is changes to elite 8. there's no way in hell after losing to Florida you were sitting there golf clapping saying "we did what our seed was supposed to".

Similar to 2013, IU & Miami lost, we became the favorite to advance to the Final four as a 3 seed vs a 4 seed. You weren't sitting there clapping saying "we outperformed" maybe if we'd played IU and lost I could see that argument saying "we lost to the top seed and took down the 2 seed" but that's not what happened we upset someone, then got upset.

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 22, 2025, 09:34:47 AMBuycks took 2 years to make the NBA and 6 after leaving MU to play more than 14 games. Vander and DJO played a combined 17 NBA games.  Butler and Jae were 2nd rounders coming out.  No one predicted in their wildest dreams how Butler's career took off. 

The only Buzz NCAA underperformance was a two pt loss in 2010.  He won a first round game without Dominic in 2009.  His teams continued to be tough, clutch, and poised when the season hung in the balance. 

The one and only accomplishment Shaka holds over Buzz is the BET championship. 

Buzz didn't way outperform Shaka to current, but is still ahead at this juncture. 

Buzz also inherited a loaded program coming off three straight tournaments and he was there for the prior season as an assistant.  Shaka came into a program that fired its coach and the cupboard was pretty bare.  Yes, he inherited Oso but he developed him into an NBA player.  He had to re-recruit Stevie and Kam as well.

He started at a much lower spot than Buzz and built a strong program that hasn't had its tournament breakthrough yet.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 22, 2025, 08:59:57 AMDude, if you think that 2011 season was better than any under Shaka, you're still drunk from last night. Buzz had 5 NBA players (Jimmy, Jae, DJO, Buycks, Blue) and barely made the tourney. He had one year in his first four (2012) that was close to Shaka's years 2 & 3. But no, his best year in that span (3-seed, S16) was still not better than Shaka's (2-seed, S16).

I don't understand the way Marquette fans categorize players. Buycks, DJO, and Vander Blue were not NBA players. That was proven every single time they got a shot on a roster.

People keep saying Shaka had 3 NBA players with another coming in Kam. Shaka has not had 4 NBA players. Oso is borderline so far. Tyler is averaging less than 5 minutes a game and less than 2 points. O-Max is under 4 points a game.

None of these guys have proven to be an actual NBA player. It's embarrassing to count them this way, either in bragging about alumni, or using them as "X coach had Y NBA players".

Further, the quality of a college player doesn't translate to the NBA in that way. Jerel was an elite college player, and never an NBA player. Tyler was by far our best player, even if Oso ends up a more successful NBA player.

That's all a side note to the thread's discussion. Which in general, Buzz and Shaka were both quite good coaches for MU in their early years. How much you value March vs regular season will dictate your appreciation between the two. It is a shame that Shaka loses to a significantly lower seed seemingly every year. Last year was unbelievably poor shooting. This year we got outplayed.

Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 22, 2025, 10:42:51 AMI criticize the coach plenty. He should have known that Sean was going to be out and that Hamilton wasnt ready. Not addressing both of those limited our ceiling. The thing I like about Shaka is that he is reflective.  I trust he will learn from this.

I just recognize that weve gotten a 7 seed or better 13 times in 46 years. A performance well inside the top 3rd is not something that needs defending. I'm not satisfied,  I want more.  I still think it's reasonable to believe that Shaka can get us there

\Sure hope you are right. Not seeing it from Shaka, based on this years performance and what is in the cupboard. Now if he can get some banger and 3 point shooting commits, maybe.

In any given year, I can buy that the tourney is a crapshoot.

But there are coaches and programs that systematically under/over perform.

Right now for Shaka in the NCAAT, the outlier is the FF - the mode is underperformance.

You can get NCAAT success in one of two ways - getting a high seed and performing to expectations, or getting a low seed and overperforming. I'm happy with either path - but so far we haven't really seen either one - and Shaka hasn't done either in a long time. If that hasn't changed by 2029 I'd certainly be on the Shaka hot seat wagon.

If we scrape in next year as a 10 or 11 and win a game or two that would be progress. If we have a solid season but then lose our first round game as a 5 or 6 that would be regression.

What does COLE stand for?

Quote from: dpucane on March 22, 2025, 06:38:52 PMWhat does COLE stand for?

Cult
Of
Low
Expectations

I am usually CONE
Cult
Of
No
Expectations

Quote from: dgies9156 on March 22, 2025, 10:47:18 AMThe question in this thread is a really good one because it spells out what rabid fans expect from the program. Coach Shaka has spoiled us -- we're back to expecting great things annually. In effect, he has purged the Wojo, Dukiet, Dean and other years from our systems.

We were plagued this year by lack of bench strength and inside power. St. John's, UConn, Creighton and now New Mexico just bullied us inside. Also, we simply wore down because Coach Shaka had limited confidence in his bench.

Maybe I'm an outlier but if I've learned anything in life, there's what you tell the public (called "spin") and what you really do. Of course, Coach Shaka isn't going to telegraph any portal moves because he doesn't want to upset the returning, existing team, who he's counting on for development for the core of next year's team.

I'm not convinced Coach Shaka won't be in the portal, if he finds the right person for his team. He's got the "relationships" and "growth" down. What we need is Victory in March and April -- and Coach Shaka knows that better than any of us.

He does not have the growth down.


o down.

Total speculation here but I feel Shaka could easily shift his direction on the portal now that this group of his first class is coming to a close. He has never "closed the door" to the portal but only wants to use it in a way that makes sense for each group. I think he just felt the connections and culture were so grounded that he didn't want to bring someone in to throw it all off. It didn't work out obviously but now is a time to refresh as there is a lot of youth and a chance to solidify this new group's culture. Similar to when he got here and grabbed Kolek he could easily shift back in that direction to solidify gaps. I sense there could be more movement than we've seen the last couple years similar to his year 1 and 2. That doesn't mean his philosophy has changed. It's just a time to reflect and make sure we have the right gaps filled and the right leadership in place. Maybe wishful but he will use the portal if necessary in my opinion.

Quote from: Warrior_2002 on March 22, 2025, 07:27:22 PMTotal speculation here but I feel Shaka could easily shift his direction on the portal now that this group of his first class is coming to a close. He has never "closed the door" to the portal but only wants to use it in a way that makes sense for each group. I think he just felt the connections and culture were so grounded that he didn't want to bring someone in to throw it all off. It didn't work out obviously but now is a time to refresh as there is a lot of youth and a chance to solidify this new group's culture. Similar to when he got here and grabbed Kolek he could easily shift back in that direction to solidify gaps. I sense there could be more movement than we've seen the last couple years similar to his year 1 and 2. That doesn't mean his philosophy has changed. It's just a time to reflect and make sure we have the right gaps filled and the right leadership in place. Maybe wishful but he will use the portal if necessary in my opinion.

There's no similarity to when Kolek transferred in. He had 3 returning players and had to essentially build an entire team. That's not the case anymore.

Not saying exactly the same. Just feel it's a new group not the same situation as the last couple years.

Quote from: Warrior_2002 on March 22, 2025, 07:27:22 PMTotal speculation here but I feel Shaka could easily shift his direction on the portal now that this group of his first class is coming to a close. He has never "closed the door" to the portal but only wants to use it in a way that makes sense for each group. I think he just felt the connections and culture were so grounded that he didn't want to bring someone in to throw it all off. It didn't work out obviously but now is a time to refresh as there is a lot of youth and a chance to solidify this new group's culture. Similar to when he got here and grabbed Kolek he could easily shift back in that direction to solidify gaps. I sense there could be more movement than we've seen the last couple years similar to his year 1 and 2. That doesn't mean his philosophy has changed. It's just a time to reflect and make sure we have the right gaps filled and the right leadership in place. Maybe wishful but he will use the portal if necessary in my opinion.

I kind of agree with you. I don't think Shaka is deluding himself about the roster flaws with this Sr class leaving

Quote from: NickelDimer on March 22, 2025, 09:24:17 AMI don't ever see a day where Shaka's seat gets warm at MU. His floor is far too high for that to happen. That aside though if he wants to be considered one of the all time great MU coaches he's going to need some deep tourney runs and his early exits are hard to ignore

Will somebody please start the bunson burner. That might help things along.

Quote from: 1SE on March 22, 2025, 04:22:39 PMIn any given year, I can buy that the tourney is a crapshoot.

But there are coaches and programs that systematically under/over perform.

Examples, please. 

And before you say Michigan State, I will remind you Izzo lost in the first round as a 2 seed, in the second round as a 3 seed, and twice as a 1 seed in the Sweet 16.

Quote from: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on March 23, 2025, 08:39:29 AMExamples, please. 

And before you say Michigan State, I will remind you Izzo lost in the first round as a 2 seed, in the second round as a 3 seed, and twice as a 1 seed in the Sweet 16.

Shaka and Gard both underperform off the top of my head.

Quote from: jeffreyweee on March 22, 2025, 02:05:45 PMI don't understand the way Marquette fans categorize players.

It's simple. Play in the NBA, you are an NBA player. Hope that helps.

Quote from: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on March 23, 2025, 08:39:29 AMExamples, please. 

And before you say Michigan State, I will remind you Izzo lost in the first round as a 2 seed, in the second round as a 3 seed, and twice as a 1 seed in the Sweet 16.

In 26 tournament appearances, an Izzo team flamed out four times.
Doesn't that kind of prove his point?

Every team that didn't win the championship underperformed.  Pitino underperformed.  The Big 10 hasn't won a championship in a quarter century. 

Quote from: tower912 on March 23, 2025, 09:06:07 AMEvery team that didn't win the championship underperformed.  Pitino underperformed.  The Big 10 hasn't won a championship in a quarter century. 

I *think* the definition here is that "underperform" means losing before your seed says you should

Quote from: tower912 on March 23, 2025, 09:06:07 AMEvery team that didn't win the championship underperformed.  Pitino underperformed.  The Big 10 hasn't won a championship in a quarter century. 

When Butler made back-to-back national title games, they underperformed?

Yeah, that's ridiculous

Izzo's previous four years of tourney results haven't looked too different than Shaka's.

Uconn has a player on their roster named Isiah Abraham. His Dad is named Faisel and he was a very good player for Mu. Isiah was a top 100 recruit and had mu in his final 3. He choose uconn despite the legacy connection. I am fairly sure that Marquette was significantly lower than uconn in their money offer. It's not culture or hugs or not being recruited over that pulls in the better players. That is a small part of it versus playing with other great players and money (which weigh more).

Clemson, in football, eschewed the portal and paying players and have not been really relevant since. They have now changed tactics and are paying more for recruits and in nil to stop the slide.

It's basic stupidity for shaka to utilize our culture and "you won't be recruited over" as our primary recruiting strategy. The more sought after Recruits and portal players are not on the same page with that. Sure, we pay pick off a good player or two but we will not have sustained success with top 150 recruits and will have to rely on projects and development of lower rated recruits. This is seriously magnified by lack of interest in the portal, which can assist us when we miss on recruits.

Please don't bring up a former player or two who doesn't fit this because it can work sporadically. It's simply a poor long term strategy.

Quote from: Captain Quette on March 23, 2025, 12:32:36 PMUconn has a player on their roster named Isiah Abraham. His Dad is named Faisel and he was a very good player for Mu. Isiah was a top 100 recruit and had mu in his final 3. He choose uconn despite the legacy connection. I am fairly sure that Marquette was significantly lower than uconn in their money offer. It's not culture or hugs or not being recruited over that pulls in the better players. That is a small part of it versus playing with other great players and money (which weigh more).

Clemson, in football, eschewed the portal and paying players and have not been really relevant since. They have now changed tactics and are paying more for recruits and in nil to stop the slide.

It's basic stupidity for shaka to utilize our culture and "you won't be recruited over" as our primary recruiting strategy. The more sought after Recruits and portal players are not on the same page with that. Sure, we pay pick off a good player or two but we will not have sustained success with top 150 recruits and will have to rely on projects and development of lower rated recruits. This is seriously magnified by lack of interest in the portal, which can assist us when we miss on recruits.

Please don't bring up a former player or two who doesn't fit this because it can work sporadically. It's simply a poor long term strategy.

It breeds a level of complacency as well.

Quote from: Captain Quette on March 23, 2025, 12:32:36 PMUconn has a player on their roster named Isiah Abraham. His Dad is named Faisel and he was a very good player for Mu. Isiah was a top 100 recruit and had mu in his final 3. He choose uconn despite the legacy connection. I am fairly sure that Marquette was significantly lower than uconn in their money offer. It's not culture or hugs or not being recruited over that pulls in the better players. That is a small part of it versus playing with other great players and money (which weigh more).

Clemson, in football, eschewed the portal and paying players and have not been really relevant since. They have now changed tactics and are paying more for recruits and in nil to stop the slide.

It's basic stupidity for shaka to utilize our culture and "you won't be recruited over" as our primary recruiting strategy. The more sought after Recruits and portal players are not on the same page with that. Sure, we pay pick off a good player or two but we will not have sustained success with top 150 recruits and will have to rely on projects and development of lower rated recruits. This is seriously magnified by lack of interest in the portal, which can assist us when we miss on recruits.

Please don't bring up a former player or two who doesn't fit this because it can work sporadically. It's simply a poor long term strategy.

I'm curious...why is it a poor long-term strategy when the approach has led to 4-straight tourney appearances, 2 two-seeds, a Big East regular season championship, and a Big East conference championship?

Why is it a poor strategy when our incoming freshman class is highly-regarded and we are in the mix for a number of highly-ranked high school players right now?

Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 23, 2025, 12:56:03 PMI'm curious...why is it a poor long-term strategy when the approach has led to 4-straight tourney appearances, 2 two-seeds, a Big East regular season championship, and a Big East conference championship?

Why is it a poor strategy when our incoming freshman class is highly-regarded and we are in the mix for a number of highly-ranked high school players right now?

The clock on whether Shaka's strategy is brilliant or poor started Saturday.
From a player standpoint, the previous four years' success was driven primarily by transfers - Kolek, OMax, Morsell - and the prior staff's recruits - Lewis, Oso, Kam*, Stevie*.
(Goes without saying Shaka and staff did a better job of coaching them up than the last staff)

Now Shaka gets his chance to show he can replicate that success with a roster built of the high school guys he recruited and developed.


* Yes, I know Shaka had to persuade Kam and Stevie to stick with their commitments, and he deserves credit for that, but it's extremely unlikely either ends up at MU had Wojo not signed them first. There's no indication either was recruited by Texas or had a relationship with Shaka.

I heard that Isiah Abraham said yes to Shaka to come to MU but for some reason I do not know, Shaka did not want him, am I right or wrong?  The kid barely played at UConn this year.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 23, 2025, 01:08:29 PMThe clock on whether Shaka's strategy is brilliant or poor started Saturday.
From a player standpoint, the previous four years' success was driven primarily by transfers - Kolek, OMax, Morsell - and the prior staff's recruits - Lewis, Oso, Kam*, Stevie*.
(Goes without saying Shaka and staff did a better job of coaching them up than the last staff)

Now Shaka gets his chance to show he can replicate that success with a roster built of the high school guys he recruited and developed.


* Yes, I know Shaka had to persuade Kam and Stevie to stick with their commitments, and he deserves credit for that, but it's extremely unlikely either ends up at MU had Wojo not signed them first. There's no indication either was recruited by Texas or had a relationship with Shaka.

The clock "just starting is ludicrous.  That makes very little sense - he HAD to use transfers his 1st year to actually have a team on the floor.  Look what he developed those transfers into.  To try to discount that is absurd and the same goes for re-recruiting Kam and Stevie.  He very will could have just let those guys move on. 

Please feel free to take a look at the stats from Omax's and Kolek's freshman year and tell me you thought those would be All-conference and/or NBA playes.   

Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 23, 2025, 01:41:28 PMThe clock "just starting is ludicrous.  That makes very little sense - he HAD to use transfers his 1st year to actually have a team on the floor.  Look what he developed those transfers into.  To try to discount that is absurd and the same goes for re-recruiting Kam and Stevie.  He very will could have just let those guys move on. 

Please feel free to take a look at the stats from Omax's and Kolek's freshman year and tell me you thought those would be All-conference and/or NBA playes.   

I said nothing to discount his development of those players. I wrote just the opposite, that he coached them up better than the previous staff had/would have.

Whether he had to take transfers or not four years ago - his strategy then - is irrelevant to any judgement of his strategy now. They're not the same strategies. You seem to acknowledge that. So judging his strategy now by the success of his strategy then seems ... odd?

This shouldn't be hard. Next year will be the first in which Shaka won't have a roster led by transfers (we think?) or players recruited by the prior staff. Hence, the clock on that personnel strategy - not his coaching ability, the personnel strategy - begins now.

Honestly, it feels like you're choosing to ignore what I actually wrote just to be in an argument.

Next year is a new season with a new team.  Players are going to have new roles and new responsibilities.  This is as it has always been in college sports.  Even if Shaka purges what some scoopers perceive as lesser players and then hits the portal, the fundamental fact that it will be a new year with new players filling new roles remains unchanged. 
  Just as it is at schools that rely heavily on the portal.  Just as it was when Cal was all about 1-and-dones.   Just as it will be at Duke, UConn, Wiscy, BYU.  A new journey, a new adventure, a new opportunity.
  I am looking forward to seeing the young guys take on their new roles and responsibilities.  As it has always been.

Pakuni, am in agreement with you 100%. Past teams had portalers and 1 or 2 developed players (as I said also) but now - all shaka recruits and perhaps no one from portal. Shaka's pure strategy on display next season.

Next year is indeed a new year for mu, just with a lower expectations roster.

Omax and Kolek were transfers, shaka unlikely to take transfers prospectively, so you cannot compare them.

I'd say, let's see how the next few weeks play out before making any declarations on what the team will look like.

To me, it's very unrealistic there won't be departures from this group beyond the seniors.  Not because of culture, but because nearly everyone will have departures.

I also expect some hard discussions with certain players about their future playing time in Milwaukee.  Discussions Shaka has also had with other players be brought to Marquette.

Finally, he isn't afraid to shake things up with his staff.  When his teams struggled defensively at Texas, he went out and hired Luke Yaklich, who was the architect of Michigan's better defensive teams under John Beilein.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 23, 2025, 01:08:29 PMThe clock on whether Shaka's strategy is brilliant or poor started Saturday.
From a player standpoint, the previous four years' success was driven primarily by transfers - Kolek, OMax, Morsell - and the prior staff's recruits - Lewis, Oso, Kam*, Stevie*.
(Goes without saying Shaka and staff did a better job of coaching them up than the last staff)

Now Shaka gets his chance to show he can replicate that success with a roster built of the high school guys he recruited and developed.


* Yes, I know Shaka had to persuade Kam and Stevie to stick with their commitments, and he deserves credit for that, but it's extremely unlikely either ends up at MU had Wojo not signed them first. There's no indication either was recruited by Texas or had a relationship with Shaka.

Your argument feels intellectual dishonest to me.

Most of the people here who really want Marquette to dive into the portal want transfers that are fully-formed and ready to make a significant impact immediately.

That certainly was not the case with OMax and TKO. Shaka identified those guys, developed them, and retained them until they were drafted.

Two of Marquette's best regular seasons in the past 25 years were guys Shaka retained and developed.  That level of success wasn't achieved with quick fixes resulting from transfers in.

In terms of approach, I don't see the team that came back for the 22-23 season as a team built around transfers.

It certainly doesn't make sense to me that the retain and develop model for that team should be looked are differently than it is for next season or the season's after that.

Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 23, 2025, 02:55:55 PMYour argument feels intellectual dishonest to me.

Most of the people here who really want Marquette to dive into the portal want transfers that are fully-formed and ready to make a significant impact immediately.

That certainly was not the case with OMax and TKO. Shaka identified those guys, developed them, and retained them until they were drafted.

Two of Marquette's best regular seasons in the past 25 years were guys Shaka retained and developed.  That level of success wasn't achieved with quick fixes resulting from transfers in.

In terms of approach, I don't see the team that came back for the 22-23 season as a team built around transfers.

It certainly doesn't make sense to me that the retain and develop model for that team should be looked are differently than it is for next season or the season's after that.

And I think there is a disconnect about the portal.  Impact players aren't coming cheap.  I do believe he can and should augment the roster where they're lacking. Or maybe you get lucky and stumble on a John Tonje.

We'll probably never know, but I do wonder if there were expectations of a Sean Jones return at some point.  If there was uncertainty, he should have been more aggressive in pursuing another ball handler.

Kolek was rookie of the year in his prior college basketball season. Omax attended the NBA academy and was a top recruit at Clemson. These two feel more like proven players than developmental players tre, Clark, Hamilton.

Uncle R - you make great points and am hopeful your thoughts are realized.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on March 23, 2025, 03:01:22 PMAnd I think there is a disconnect about the portal.  Impact players aren't coming cheap.  I do believe he can and should augment the roster where they're lacking. Or maybe you get lucky and stumble on a John Tonje.

We'll probably never know, but I do wonder if there were expectations of a Sean Jones return at some point.  If there was uncertainty, he should have been more aggressive in pursuing another ball handler.

I can only speak for myself, but I've never asked or expected Shaka to go out and drop the bag on a big name (which is different than impact) transfer.

Really, it's no different than how smart NFL teams operate. You want to build the core of your team through the draft - the equivalent of high school recruiting - then plug holes through free agency.

This year's team had two notable holes on the bench, either of which could have been filled with an experienced transfer. Shaka chose to fill neither. And before anyone says "You can't get a quality player to come in for a likely bench role," Shaka already proved he can do that.

Quote from: Captain Quette on March 23, 2025, 12:32:36 PMUconn has a player on their roster named Isiah Abraham. His Dad is named Faisel and he was a very good player for Mu. Isiah was a top 100 recruit and had mu in his final 3. He choose uconn despite the legacy connection. I am fairly sure that Marquette was significantly lower than uconn in their money offer. It's not culture or hugs or not being recruited over that pulls in the better players. That is a small part of it versus playing with other great players and money (which weigh more).

Going to leave it at this, but I'm fairly certain you know nothing about this recruitment.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 23, 2025, 03:16:57 PMI can only speak for myself, but I've never asked or expected Shaka to go out and drop the bag on a big name (which is different than impact) transfer.

Really, it's no different than how smart NFL teams operate. You want to build the core of your team through the draft - the equivalent of high school recruiting - then plug holes through free agency.

This year's team had two notable holes on the bench, either of which could have been filled with an experienced transfer. Shaka chose to fill neither. And before anyone says "You can't get a quality player to come in for a likely bench role," Shaka already proved he can do that.

I don't disagree.  I think depth pieces would have been helpful.  Those don't always workout either, but, hard to say what those do if they're here

Quote from: Uncle Rico on March 23, 2025, 03:01:22 PMAnd I think there is a disconnect about the portal.  Impact players aren't coming cheap.  I do believe he can and should augment the roster where they're lacking. Or maybe you get lucky and stumble on a John Tonje.

We'll probably never know, but I do wonder if there were expectations of a Sean Jones return at some point.  If there was uncertainty, he should have been more aggressive in pursuing another ball handler.

While it might seem like it, I'm not anti-portal. If Shaka found another OMax who didn't require a bag and didn't do much his freshman year bring him in. But that's not want the people complaining about really want.

I have to believe he expected Sean back. He also likely expected more out of Tre. So injury and lack of development bit him.

With 15 scholarships I don't mind redshirting project bigs like CH and Clark.

So did they misevaluate Hamilton in regards to what he could contribute?  That very well may be the case. Did he look better in practice based on who he was going up against?

Right now, our bigs behind Ben are big question marks (I'm not including Royce in that group).

Maybe the development we saw in one off-season for Oso, OMax, Kam and TKO was an outlier. I just wonder why people seem so sure we won't see massive leaps from guys like Zaide, Royce, and Owens.

Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 23, 2025, 03:22:44 PMWhile it might seem like it, I'm not anti-portal. If Shaka found another OMax who didn't require a bag and didn't do much his freshman year bring him in. But that's not want the people complaining about really want.

I have to believe he expected Sean back. He also likely expected more out of Tre. So injury and lack of development bit him.

With 15 scholarships I don't mind redshirting project bigs like CH and Clark.

So did they misevaluate Hamilton in regards to what he could contribute?  That very well may be the case. Did he look better in practice based on who he was going up against?

Right now, our bigs behind Ben are big question marks (I'm not including Royce in that group).

Maybe the development we saw in one off-season for Oso, OMax, Kam and TKO was an outlier. I just wonder why people seem so sure we won't see massive leaps from guys like Zaide, Royce, and Owens.

Part of it is simply recency bias.  Team has been mediocre at best the last two months, so no way guys can get better.  Also, some fans are just programmed to think the players on their teams suck

Going to leave it at this also and say two sides to every story.

Quote from: Captain Quette on March 23, 2025, 03:39:23 PMGoing to leave it at this also and say two sides to every story.

Which story? 

Quote from: tower912 on March 23, 2025, 02:05:17 PMNext year is a new season with a new team.  Players are going to have new roles and new responsibilities.  This is as it has always been in college sports.  Even if Shaka purges what some scoopers perceive as lesser players and then hits the portal, the fundamental fact that it will be a new year with new players filling new roles remains unchanged. 
  Just as it is at schools that rely heavily on the portal.  Just as it was when Cal was all about 1-and-dones.  Just as it will be at Duke, UConn, Wiscy, BYU.  A new journey, a new adventure, a new opportunity.
  I am looking forward to seeing the young guys take on their new roles and responsibilities.  As it has always been.

Yes it will be a new season. Each season ahead is a new season. This season ended on a flame out and the roster next year will be pretty young. Hope these guys mature and get better. However you cannot cloud over the fact that this season was less than the prior two and that next year does not look real promising but will certainly be an "adventure". How do you feel about the program moving downward this year and further next year as compared to the two prior years when Shaka was playing with many players he did not recruit? Do you not see why some are concerned? Do you not believe as you have said Shaka should saddle up or die. I am hoping that Shaka giddyups and further hope that Shaka saddles up a stud and not a mule. May questions and concerns abound.

Clearly, I can't stop others from worrying.  I will remain optimistic, cheerful, and fearless.   At worst, it is a rebuilding year.  At best, it lays the foundation for further greatness.

I have yet to see any acknowledgement here that Shaka's "system"-essentially the pre-portal way of building a team for all but the bluebloods-takes several seasons to (possibly) become successful.

The portal has created a path for teams like St. Johns to quickly create a powerhouse team with a billionaire NIL donor in Pitino's pocket. When the right now! demand for immediate results is the bar for evaluating a system like Shaka's, he doesn't have a snowball's chance in Hell of winning this game with scoopers. but then again...he doesn't need to.  ;D  The deck is stacked via the right now! bar.

Marquette has plenty of money and can compete with any other school for the transfers that Muggsy (see the "happy" thread  ::) ) and others say we must have, right? Shaka's system is obviously a failure based upon this season, so we need to replace at least some of the (not) returning players. Perhaps a contingent of scoopers should address the team and explain the new plan to them.

Shaka may very well go to the portal for a transfer, but I think it would be to fill a hole and he would essentially stay with the framework of his system.

Quote from: Uncle Rico on March 23, 2025, 03:26:19 PMPart of it is simply recency bias.  Team has been mediocre at best the last two months, so no way guys can get better.  Also, some fans are just programmed to think the players on their teams suck

I think all of the players have and will get better. But is that going to be enough to compete at a high level.

We are losing 3 great starters.

Some players just don't have it and the game that Shaka is playing, you can't miss on your recruits because you are not replacing them with proven ncaa talent.

Then you look at what we are bringing back and you have 3 current players who have been with the program for 2 years and none of them look ready to contribute(Tre, Hamilton, Al). Add 4 new freshmen who look promising but are not ranked where you would expect them to make a huge impact.  That is half your team.

You have another project in Clark and that makes 8.

Sean coming off a major injury makes 9 legit question marks.

That doesn't include Parham, Owens and Zaide.  We are really going to have to hope all 3 improve a lot and none of them get an injury that stunts their development.

Call it recency bias, I call it a big ask to think we are competing for a Big East title with that roster, let alone a top 4 finish.

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on March 23, 2025, 03:56:10 PMI have yet to see any acknowledgement here that Shaka's "system"-essentially the pre-portal way of building a team for all but the bluebloods-takes several seasons to (possibly) become successful.

The portal has created a path for teams like St. Johns to quickly create a powerhouse team with a billionaire NIL donor in Pitino's pocket. When the right now! demand for immediate results is the bar for evaluating a system like Shaka's, he doesn't have a snowball's chance in Hell of winning this game with scoopers. but then again...he doesn't need to.  ;D  The deck is stacked via the right now! bar.

Marquette has plenty of money and can compete with any other school for the transfers that Muggsy (see the "happy" thread  ::) ) and others say we must have, right? Shaka's system is obviously a failure based upon this season, so we need to replace at least some of the (not) returning players. Perhaps a contingent of scoopers should address the team and explain the new plan to them.

Shaka may very well go to the portal for a transfer, but I think it would be to fill a hole and he would essentially stay with the framework of his system.


Hope there not competing for last!

Quote from: Big Papi on March 23, 2025, 04:07:21 PMI think all of the players have and will get better. But is that going to be enough to compete at a high level.

We are losing 3 great starters.

Some players just don't have it and the game that Shaka is playing, you can't miss on your recruits because you are not replacing them with proven ncaa talent.

Then you look at what we are bringing back and you have 3 current players who have been with the program for 2 years and none of them look ready to contribute(Tre, Hamilton, Al). Add 4 new freshmen who look promising but are not ranked where you would expect them to make a huge impact.  That is half your team.

You have another project in Clark and that makes 8.

Sean coming off a major injury makes 9 legit question marks.

That doesn't include Parham, Owens and Zaide.  We are really going to have to hope all 3 improve a lot and none of them get an injury that stunts their development.

Call it recency bias, I call it a big ask to think we are competing for a Big East title with that roster, let alone a top 4 finish.

Yeah, we'll see.  Again, I want to see the next month or so play out. Player progress isn't always linear, too.  Maybe there are multiple big leaps, maybe not. We're all guessing in that regard. 

All concerns are fair to have.

I believe Shaka will try and go to the portal this year. I believe Marquette has plenty of money and sources. I believe he will be thoughtful about who he brings in and how long. He will also encourage some guys to play down and or be honest that they will be glorified walk ons. He will build around Zaid, Ross, jones, gold, Owens and parham. A couple of freshmen will play parham type minutes. The program is in good shape and this is a transition year.

Kentucky has nine portal players?  How could they possibly win a game in the tourney?

Quote from: PointWarrior on March 23, 2025, 04:33:21 PMKentucky has nine portal players?  How could they possibly win a game in the tourney?

Probably the same way Purdue won without any

Notre Dame has a good 6'9" player, 15/6 would help!

Quote from: BCHoopster on March 23, 2025, 04:58:05 PMNotre Dame has a good 6'9" player, 15/6 would help!

Is he in the portal

Quote from: Uncle Rico on March 23, 2025, 05:03:42 PMIs he in the portal

Yes

Quote from: Uncle Rico on March 23, 2025, 04:35:10 PMProbably the same way Purdue won without any

And it sounds like he will be active in it this year although he prefers recruit and development.  At least Painter is open minded about it.

Quote from: Big Papi on March 23, 2025, 05:16:11 PMAnd it sounds like he will be active in it this year although he prefers recruit and development.  At least Painter is open minded about it.

Shaka has used the portal

Quote from: Uncle Rico on March 23, 2025, 05:18:22 PMShaka has used the portal

Last 2 years I missed those players, called a physical 4 or 5

Quote from: Uncle Rico on March 23, 2025, 05:18:22 PMShaka has used the portal

But not for two years, and even then it was a flier on a NAIA guy. And when asked about it Friday night, he didn't sound like a guy who planned to dive into the portal this year. For better or worse, he's made not using the portal his coaching personality.

Contrast that to Painter, who said this 10 days ago:
"We're going to get some guys here, we're going to get some guys here in the spring, because you have to — you have to be aggressive."

Quote from: Pakuni on March 23, 2025, 05:25:41 PMBut not for two years, and even then it was a flier on a NAIA guy. And when asked about it Friday night, he didn't sound like a guy who planned to dive into the portal this year. For better or worse, he's made not using the portal his coaching personality.

Contrast that to Painter, who said this 10 days ago:
"We're going to get some guys here, we're going to get some guys here in the spring, because you have to — you have to be aggressive."

A lot can change in the next month plus.

Kam looking for another year

https://x.com/csgkam/status/1903938589618024666?t=2xkeMrA0jUVQeSS1lx-R3A&s=19

Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on March 23, 2025, 05:37:34 PMKam looking for another year

https://x.com/csgkam/status/1903938589618024666?t=2xkeMrA0jUVQeSS1lx-R3A&s=19

He should just get a lawyer. 4 year eligibility probably isn't enforceable or something stupid like that. Problem is then you have guys like Kalkbrenner, Dickinson, Tonje, etc who can't move on from college all doing the same.

Get a fake ID.  It is what everybody did if they didn't get get grandfathered in on the drinking age change.

Quote from: BCHoopster on March 23, 2025, 04:58:05 PMNotre Dame has a good 6'9" player, 15/6 would help!

I'm not sure a Domer is bringing the right culture here.

Quote from: tower912 on March 23, 2025, 05:52:37 PMGet a fake ID.  It is what everybody did if they didn't get get grandfathered in on the drinking age change.

I had a fake ID at Marquette and listed Sparta Wisconsin as my hometown. It was a speck on the map, so I thought that no one would know anything about it and ask me questions. The first or second time I used the ID, the guy checking it was very happy to meet someone from Sparta. Somehow, I BSed my way through the conversation.  ;D

Quote from: Big Papi on March 23, 2025, 05:16:11 PMAnd it sounds like he will be active in it this year although he prefers recruit and development.  At least Painter is open minded about it.

Unlike Shaka who refuses to consider advice from scoopers.  ::)

Quote from: Scoop Snoop on March 23, 2025, 06:05:43 PMUnlike Shaka who refuses to consider advice from scoopers.  ::)

Insensitive meanie.  Validate OUR feelings.

Quote from: cheebs09 on March 23, 2025, 05:55:12 PMI'm not sure a Domer is bringing the right culture here.

Oh, I'm positive that a Domer would not fit into the culture. I have a nephew who has always been conspicuously snooty about being a ND alum. I don't think he likes it when I laugh in his face about it.

Quote from: willie warrior on March 23, 2025, 03:42:59 PMYes it will be a new season. Each season ahead is a new season. This season ended on a flame out and the roster next year will be pretty young. Hope these guys mature and get better. However you cannot cloud over the fact that this season was less than the prior two and that next year does not look real promising but will certainly be an "adventure". How do you feel about the program moving downward this year and further next year as compared to the two prior years when Shaka was playing with many players he did not recruit? Do you not see why some are concerned? Do you not believe as you have said Shaka should saddle up or die. I am hoping that Shaka giddyups and further hope that Shaka saddles up a stud and not a mule. May questions and concerns abound.

Willie won't see this as he has me on ignore but others here definitely have this same or similar viewpoint...

I'm confused how the two teams that achieved two seeds weren't composed of Shaka recruits.

If someone is a transfer, are they not recruited?  (TKO, Omax)

If you re-open your recruitment are you not re-recruited (Stevie, Kam)

If you were recruited to Texas and follow the coach, were you not recruited? (Jop)

If you were recruited in high school by Shaka and stay, does that not count?  (Oso)

Concerns about next year's team are totally fair.  There are a lot of questions. But the same guy and staff that identified, recruited/retained, and developed that talent is still here. 

Maybe I'm crazy but I'm guessing he still knows what he's doing. 

Yes, not too long ago MU was picked for 9th in the conference.   Why?  Morsell and Kuath graduated, Justin declared for the NBA, Greg went off to Pitt.   MU WAS DOOMED!

Maybe Sean Jones could save us by moving Kolek off the ball or to the bench.  No way was Oso ready to be a Big East center.  Starting Stevie Mitchell?  What had he shown?  OMax was athletic but out of control and fell down to much.  Kam was nothing but a conscience free gunner.   Some thought MU shouldn't be picked as high as 9th.

Misery and woe and gnashing of teeth and rending of garments.

I am not predicting a repeat of that.  I simply remember we gave all been here before relatively recently.  And I am refusing to despair. 

Quote from: CountryRoads on March 23, 2025, 05:47:06 PMHe should just get a lawyer. 4 year eligibility probably isn't enforceable or something stupid like that. Problem is then you have guys like Kalkbrenner, Dickinson, Tonje, etc who can't move on from college all doing the same.

Tonje wants another year and looking at BYU. They like guys over 30. plus, can't beat em join em

Quote from: Big Papi on March 23, 2025, 04:07:21 PMWe are losing 3 great starters.

This is overstated. MU is losing a great offensive player in Kam and a couple of very good players in Stevie and Jop. But let's remember that these three were the leaders of this team. They're the ones relied upon to hit free throws and make open shots. MU had a very solid season and these three deserve respect and credit. I am personally fine with this season. That said, many are dissatisfied with how the end of the season played out and these three bear much of the responsibility. For the end of the season to have played out differently, these three seniors needed to play better more consistently.

As for replacing them, I personally think Parham will develop into a better player than Joplin and Lowery was already playing as well as Stevie by season's end. I think both Owens and Lowery will eventually be better. Kam will be much tougher to replace. The guys off the bench and the incoming freshmen have much more athletic upside.

In any event, it wouldn't surprise me to see MU involved in the portal and/or for a player off MU's bench go into the portal.

I, too, think Parham can be better than Joplin.  Zaide played down the stretch against New Mexico.  Probably due to Stevie's injuries, but the fact remains.  Of course, the young guys will have to grow and develop.  When has that not been the case?

Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 23, 2025, 03:22:44 PMWhile it might seem like it, I'm not anti-portal. If Shaka found another OMax who didn't require a bag and didn't do much his freshman year bring him in. But that's not want the people complaining about really want.

I have to believe he expected Sean back. He also likely expected more out of Tre. So injury and lack of development bit him.

With 15 scholarships I don't mind redshirting project bigs like CH and Clark.

So did they misevaluate Hamilton in regards to what he could contribute?  That very well may be the case. Did he look better in practice based on who he was going up against?

Right now, our bigs behind Ben are big question marks (I'm not including Royce in that group).

Maybe the development we saw in one off-season for Oso, OMax, Kam and TKO was an outlier. I just wonder why people seem so sure we won't see massive leaps from guys like Zaide, Royce, and Owens.

I can definitively say there was a zero percent chance Sean was coming back this year. The player knew it and the coaching staff knew it.  Any medical professional here or a simple google search will tell you a high level athlete rarely returns to full activity in 12ish months.

Given Sean's high NIL expectations, there was no way he would come back for half a season, thusly burning a year of NIL earning potential.

Quote from: MuggsyB on March 22, 2025, 08:23:44 AMSlightly better than Wojo is nonsense.  Look up cataclysmic disaster in the dictionary.  That's where we were under Wojo. 

This makes me think that you've never actually used a dictionary.