https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/what-trump-s-plan-to-stop-minting-pennies-means-for-consumers/ar-AA1yMcyz?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=7f57377eea534594a8787d7ba202ef1e&ei=32
What do you think? I seldom use cash anymore, so I am sort of on the fence. I think it will affect mom and pop stores more than anyone else. Maybe a hundred years from now a penny might be worth something if they are discontinued.
Yes we should get rid of the penny. Round every transaction to the nearest nickel.
Politics, unfortunately.
Quote from: The Sultan on February 11, 2025, 09:26:52 AMYes we should get rid of the penny. Round every transaction to the nearest nickel.
Realistically, the penny, and nickle could probably be eliminated. However, I don't think there's really any cost savings in the end, with the additional cost for businesses to implement price changes, and rounding - especially with state and local taxes involved.
Quote from: tower912 on February 11, 2025, 09:32:29 AMPolitics, unfortunately.
If folks can avoid their partisan takes, it's an interesting discussion, that I'll be watching carefully.
One place this would have a big (and weird) change, is internet ad sales. We get pennies (or fractions thereof) for every few ads viewed. We get more when people click on the ads, but still usually a few cents.
Would every ad then be rounded up? That would increase costs of advertising a lot. Just round up the overall ad campaign cost, and round up or down the payments to those that show ads? Still doesn't seem right to be counting in pennies (or fractions of nickles) if it's something that doesn't exist.
https://youtu.be/y5UT04p5f7U?si=eIATn4ieVOuwSCkW
Yes. And the nickel. And probably the dime too.
So NZ only rounds up (to 10c) if you pay with cash. You pay to the "cent" when using credit. Cash tax.
The long term trend is a cashless society.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 11, 2025, 11:05:38 AMSo NZ only rounds up (to 10c) if you pay with cash. You pay to the "cent" when using credit. Cash tax.
I like this idea, at least as an interim solution.
Silly to keep making pennies and nickels, as they cost too much to make and are largely made of materials that are poor for the environment.
I so rarely use cash, I had to look up the percentages:
https://capitaloneshopping.com/research/cash-vs-credit-card-spending-statistics/
The interesting thing is that it's only about 12% cash transactions.
But 37% of retail dollars come from cash? I'm not sure I understand how these two bullets make sense, unless the 4x combines online and in-store. I'm guessing in-store cash shoppers spend more then.Shoppers spend up to 4x as much when they pay with credit cards instead of cash.63% of nationwide retail sales dollars are from credit card transactions.
Edit: I'm just gonna ignore that link. I can't make sense of it's mutiple conflicting percentages.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 11, 2025, 11:58:39 AMI so rarely use cash, I had to look up the percentages:
https://capitaloneshopping.com/research/cash-vs-credit-card-spending-statistics/
The interesting thing is that it's only about 12% cash transactions.
But 37% of retail dollars come from cash? I'm not sure I understand how these two bullets make sense, unless the 4x combines online and in-store. I'm guessing in-store cash shoppers spend more then.
- Shoppers spend up to 4x as much when they pay with credit cards instead of cash.
- 63% of nationwide retail sales dollars are from credit card transactions.
I am like you, but I still see people pay cash at the grocery store.
Does bubble gum cost more than a penny? Put a penny in the machine and out came the bubble gum.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on February 11, 2025, 12:04:25 PMDoes bubble gum cost more than a penny? Put a penny in the machine and out came the bubble gum.
This would also deliver a hit to the penny press machines nationwide.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 11, 2025, 10:51:20 AMOne place this would have a big (and weird) change, is internet ad sales. We get pennies (or fractions thereof) for every few ads viewed. We get more when people click on the ads, but still usually a few cents.
Would every ad then be rounded up? That would increase costs of advertising a lot. Just round up the overall ad campaign cost, and round up or down the payments to those that show ads? Still doesn't seem right to be counting in pennies (or fractions of nickles) if it's something that doesn't exist.
I don't know...they've been selling gasoline at prices that end in 1/10 penny for as long as I can remember and they somehow have figured out a way to make that work.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 11, 2025, 10:51:20 AMOne place this would have a big (and weird) change, is internet ad sales. We get pennies (or fractions thereof) for every few ads viewed. We get more when people click on the ads, but still usually a few cents.
Would every ad then be rounded up? That would increase costs of advertising a lot. Just round up the overall ad campaign cost, and round up or down the payments to those that show ads? Still doesn't seem right to be counting in pennies (or fractions of nickles) if it's something that doesn't exist.
The vast majority of transactions are digital now anyhow, so I'm not sure it would matter. As I understand it, the proposal would eliminate the penny as a physical currency, not the concept of cents. Businesses that deal with a lot of cash customers could simply implement a round up policy.
Yes
Quote from: muwarrior69 on February 11, 2025, 09:25:13 AMhttps://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/what-trump-s-plan-to-stop-minting-pennies-means-for-consumers/ar-AA1yMcyz?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=7f57377eea534594a8787d7ba202ef1e&ei=32
What do you think? I seldom use cash anymore, so I am sort of on the fence. I think it will affect mom and pop stores more than anyone else. Maybe a hundred years from now a penny might be worth something if they are discontinued.
Today's pennies will have no extra value in 100 years. Except sentimental.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 11, 2025, 12:19:32 PMThe vast majority of transactions are digital now anyhow, so I'm not sure it would matter. As I understand it, the proposal would eliminate the penny as a physical currency, not the concept of cents. Businesses that deal with a lot of cash customers could simply implement a round up policy.
Yes, as I noted after, NZ only "taxes" cash transactions. Which I guess is a fine, but weird way to do it. Stay cashless and win...
Quote from: StillAWarrior on February 11, 2025, 12:07:50 PMI don't know...they've been selling gasoline at prices that end in 1/10 penny for as long as I can remember and they somehow have figured out a way to make that work.
Also weird, but agree. We should probably force gas stations to abandon the 9/10 practice.
New Zealand? I thought they were on the Gold standard.
I think only having a $0.10 and $0.50 coin makes sense. All prices round to the tenth of a dollar.
I'd be fine eliminating the penny and nickel and keeping the dime and quarter.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 11, 2025, 10:36:41 AMRealistically, the penny, and nickle could probably be eliminated. However, I don't think there's really any cost savings in the end, with the additional cost for businesses to implement price changes, and rounding - especially with state and local taxes involved.
If folks can avoid their partisan takes, it's an interesting discussion, that I'll be watching carefully.
I don't think it's a partisan issue but more of a common sense one. It costs more to produce than it's worth and there are reasonable solutions to phasing it out. I'm not a "we should move to a cashless society" guy and Jockey makes a good point when he says "I think it will affect mom and pop stores more than anyone else." The idea of rounding for those who want to pay cash or businesses that only take cash is a very reasonable solution. I'm seeing more places that offer a discount for customers who pay cash to avoid the processing fees.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on February 11, 2025, 01:02:43 PMdon't think it's a partisan issue
You must live in a cave :-X
I agree...it *shouldn't* be.
Quote from: The Sultan on February 11, 2025, 09:26:52 AMYes we should get rid of the penny. Round every transaction to the nearest nickel.
It costs more than a penny to make a penny and more than a nickel to make a nickel. 100+ years ago, a penny had more buying power than a quarter does now, and we got along fine. Get rid of pennies and nickels and round to the nearest dime. When I was in the Netherlands 20 years ago they were already doing that with their currency.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on February 11, 2025, 01:02:43 PMI don't think it's a partisan issue but more of a common sense one. It costs more to produce than it's worth and there are reasonable solutions to phasing it out. I'm not a "we should move to a cashless society" guy and Jockey makes a good point when he says "I think it will affect mom and pop stores more than anyone else." The idea of rounding for those who want to pay cash or businesses that only take cash is a very reasonable solution. I'm seeing more places that offer a discount for customers who pay cash to avoid the processing fees.
A portion of all pricing where credit cards are accepted typically includes the fee(s) that the merchant pays unless it is listed separately. If you believe that the merchant is absorbing this business expense, I think you are being naive.
By stating that a fee is added the customer has the option of paying less with cash. The "mom and pop" stores refusal to accept credit cards
sometimes, I suspect, is because they want to hide some of their income from the IRS.
Some resistance to credit cards is cultural. When we visited Portugal, we found quite a few merchants dealt solely in cash.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on February 11, 2025, 01:32:10 PMA portion of all pricing where credit cards are accepted typically includes the fee(s) that the merchant pays unless it is listed separately. If you believe that the merchant is absorbing this business expense, I think you are being naive.
By stating that a fee is added the customer has the option of paying less with cash. The "mom and pop" stores refusal to accept credit cards sometimes, I suspect, is because they want to hide some of their income from the IRS.
Some resistance to credit cards is cultural. When we visited Portugal, we found quite a few merchants dealt solely in cash.
A few convenience stores I have gone to would only accept a credit card for purchases over 10 dollars.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on February 11, 2025, 01:49:22 PMA few convenience stores I have gone to would only accept a credit card for purchases over 10 dollars.
There is something to be said about this because of processing fees and whatnot on card purchases.
Ask yourself, who will profit from the elimination of hard currency?
Vi$a, Ma$tercard, and American Expre$$
Sorry Di$cover.
But cash isn't "free", taxpayers pay to create it, and business pay to process it - assuming they're bringing in good quantities of cash and not just avoiding the IRS. Plus money launderers aren't cheap.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 11, 2025, 01:54:37 PMThere is something to be said about this because of processing fees and whatnot on card purchases.
Ask yourself, who will profit from the elimination of hard currency?
Well, they're not what they used to be, but...the mafia. They loved the restaurant and bar industry when cash was still king. Great way to make money that you could hide. And I'm pretty sure that drug dealers insist upon cash. Some scoopers can answer that question for you (or maybe you can answer it yourself).
OK, I've had my fun. Rocky answered your question. They love it when the cardholder takes advantage of their friendly offer to finance the balance on the cards.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 11, 2025, 02:01:52 PMVi$a, Ma$tercard, and American Expre$$
Sorry Di$cover.
But cash isn't "free", taxpayers pay to create it, and business pay to process it - assuming they're bringing in good quantities of cash and not just avoiding the IRS. Plus money launderers aren't cheap.
Tell me about it! Sheesh!
Get rid of the Penny. Bring back Lil Penny.
(https://a57.foxsports.com/statics.foxsports.com/www.foxsports.com/content/uploads/2020/02/1280/960/5747fe43-PENNYWITHLIL.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on February 11, 2025, 01:32:10 PMportion of all pricing where credit cards are accepted typically includes the fee(s) that the merchant pays unless it is listed separately. If you believe that the merchant is absorbing this business expense, I think you are being naive.
By stating that a fee is added the customer has the option of paying less with cash. The "mom and pop" stores refusal to accept credit cards sometimes, I suspect, is because they want to hide some of their income from the IRS.
If a merchant accepts cash, he or she has to order it from the bank, have it delivered by armored car, account it, manage it, protect it and deposit what you don't need. And, one inevitably has cash and coin inventory shrinkage, either by theft or mistake. Maybe there is a tax advantage to taking cash "under the table," but even that's becoming harder to do.
Don't kid yourself. Banks charge for rolls of coins, they charge to deliver and they charge to pick-up.
Much of the costs of obtaining and managing cash are "soft" or allocated costs. Whereas credit card fees are hard costs. I'll bet most cash-heavy companies find their cost of cash per transaction isn't that much different than their credit card costs. That's why more than a few merchants are no cash merchants.
Quote from: tower912 on February 11, 2025, 12:41:15 PMNew Zealand? I thought they were on the Gold standard.
Wait, wait, this is better.
New Zealand abandoned the (Kirk) Penney ages ago. Now they are on the Gold standard.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 11, 2025, 01:04:33 PMYou must live in a cave :-X
I agree...it *shouldn't* be.
I know EVERYTHING is a partisan issue these days. Saying "it shouldn't be a partisan issue" would have been more appropriate.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 11, 2025, 01:54:37 PMThere is something to be said about this because of processing fees and whatnot on card purchases.
Ask yourself, who will profit from the elimination of hard currency?
I'm sure the credit card companies will always round down.
Quote from: dgies9156 on February 11, 2025, 02:49:48 PMIf a merchant accepts cash, he or she has to order it from the bank, have it delivered by armored car, account it, manage it, protect it and deposit what you don't need. And, one inevitably has cash and coin inventory shrinkage, either by theft or mistake. Maybe there is a tax advantage to taking cash "under the table," but even that's becoming harder to do.
Don't kid yourself. Banks charge for rolls of coins, they charge to deliver and they charge to pick-up.
Much of the costs of obtaining and managing cash are "soft" or allocated costs. Whereas credit card fees are hard costs. I'll bet most cash-heavy companies find their cost of cash per transaction isn't that much different than their credit card costs. That's why more than a few merchants are no cash merchants.
They can refuse legal tender?
Quote from: muwarrior69 on February 11, 2025, 04:15:40 PMThey can refuse legal tender?
Yes. (https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm)
Quote from: Jockey on February 11, 2025, 12:39:23 PMToday's pennies will have no extra value in 100 years. Except sentimental.
I should have made clear that they will have no collector value. They will also have zero value for their copper since their is no copper IN the penny - just a thin copper coating.
Quote from: The Sultan on February 11, 2025, 04:17:00 PMYes. (https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm)
Maybe where you live, but not here in New Jersey.
Some states have laws that require cash be accepted. CO has one of those. However, it's hard to enforce (I feel like many food trucks avoid cash), and it's not illegal to say "We don't carry change" if you insist on paying in cash.
Edit: Oddly, Banks and Credit unions aren't required to accept cash for their services. lol
Absolutely. Probably nickels also.
Dimes are the new pennies.
Dollars are the new dimes.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 11, 2025, 01:04:33 PMYou must live in a cave :-X
I agree...it *shouldn't* be.
As you know, I'm not the biggest fan of a certain political figure, but I am absolutely fine with eliminating the penny.
Quote from: CTWarrior on February 11, 2025, 01:14:26 PMIt costs more than a penny to make a penny and more than a nickel to make a nickel. 100+ years ago, a penny had more buying power than a quarter does now, and we got along fine. Get rid of pennies and nickels and round to the nearest dime. When I was in the Netherlands 20 years ago they were already doing that with their currency.
I'm in the Netherlands often and it is still the case
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 11, 2025, 10:51:20 AMOne place this would have a big (and weird) change, is internet ad sales. We get pennies (or fractions thereof) for every few ads viewed. We get more when people click on the ads, but still usually a few cents.
Would every ad then be rounded up? That would increase costs of advertising a lot. Just round up the overall ad campaign cost, and round up or down the payments to those that show ads? Still doesn't seem right to be counting in pennies (or fractions of nickles) if it's something that doesn't exist.
I'd think they could track it, and when they send you the check just round it to the nearest nickel or dime or whatever
Quote from: Hards Alumni on February 12, 2025, 01:41:16 PMI'd think they could track it, and when they send you the check just round it to the nearest nickel or dime or whatever
When I posted that, I wasn't really sure how it would work. Sounds like digital (and likely check) payments would still use exact change - so no difference. Of course, if you were to cash a check - the bank would round up or down? Probably always down, hah.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 11, 2025, 10:36:41 AMRealistically, the penny, and nickle could probably be eliminated. However, I don't think there's really any cost savings in the end, with the additional cost for businesses to implement price changes, and rounding - especially with state and local taxes involved.
If folks can avoid their partisan takes, it's an interesting discussion, that I'll be watching carefully.
Ohhhhh... what scoopai could have been
A dumb question. Since pennies cost so much, why do we take old ones out of circulation and make new ones? Just let the old ones stay in circulation.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on February 12, 2025, 01:41:16 PMI'd think they could track it, and when they send you the check just round it to the nearest nickel or dime or whatever
they'll just round off the fraction of the cents and put it into a bank account. It will be too small to notice. What could possibly go wrong?
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on February 13, 2025, 12:50:04 PMthey'll just round off the fraction of the cents and put it into a bank account. It will be too small to notice. What could possibly go wrong?
Nice.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on February 13, 2025, 12:50:04 PMthey'll just round off the fraction of the cents and put it into a bank account. It will be too small to notice. What could possibly go wrong?
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on February 13, 2025, 12:50:04 PMthey'll just round off the fraction of the cents and put it into a bank account. It will be too small to notice. What could possibly go wrong?
I'm going to work on my matrix.
Don't forget the cover for your TPS report