MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Warrior of Law on January 01, 2025, 09:53:12 AM

Title: Mid-season grades
Post by: Warrior of Law on January 01, 2025, 09:53:12 AM
Nearly every one of the key players has improved and exceeded expectations in '24-25. Stevie, Joplin, Ross, Gold and Kam have met or exceeded expectations ("A"). Lowery, Owens and Parham are positive developments ("B"). The only player who has been underwhelming is Norman, and his minutes will evaporate if Sean Jones returns. The goals for the team remain the same: win the BE, be in the conversation for a 1-2 seed in the NCAA.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Newsdreams on January 01, 2025, 09:55:11 AM
Hopefully all can read
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: wadesworld on January 01, 2025, 10:02:51 AM
I expected Kam to contend for BEPOY, and since he's only the favorite I can't give him higher than a C+.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: FairWeatherEagle on January 01, 2025, 10:11:33 AM
Quote from: Newsdreams on January 01, 2025, 09:55:11 AMHopefully all can read

We really don't know...only that Bball has got to challenge what they do in the classroom. As for character though, they look real good from the outside-in. Shaka leadership, etc.
It was really good to see Jop in a PSA against drugs one day while I was watching something. Nice.

"Sometimes winning means not taking every shot I'm given,"

https://risedrugfreemke.org/news-events/blog.html/article/2024/11/27/partnering-with-mu-basketball-s-david-joplin-on-setting-boundaries-with-alcohol-and-other-drugs-multimedia-campaign
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 01, 2025, 11:33:05 AM
I'm with Brew. Team gets a C/D so far. Undefeated from here on out moves us up to a B, one loss puts us back at C/D, two or more losses means an F.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Badgerhater on January 01, 2025, 12:31:34 PM
D+.   At some point in a game I don't recall, MU had not covered the spread before the first media time out.

Unacceptable
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Jockey on January 01, 2025, 12:52:43 PM
We are in the 2nd golden age of MU basketball.

So C- is about right. If not 1st, it can't be better than a 'C'.


As an aside, we really are in the 2nd golden age. ENJOY IT, people. Too many here can't accept success when they see it. Al would have been crucified on Scoop.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: GoldenEagles03 on January 01, 2025, 12:59:13 PM
Quote from: Jockey on January 01, 2025, 12:52:43 PMWe are in the 2nd golden age of MU basketball.

So C- is about right. If not 1st, it can't be better than a 'C'.


As an aside, we really are in the 2nd golden age. ENJOY IT, people. Too many here can't accept success when they see it. Al would have been crucified on Scoop.

Shaka seemed very business like last night in the postgame compared to his usual upbeat self.

Could be nothing, but this team is very good at taking the identity of their coach and one another...maybe they are just out for blood so to speak in the 2nd half of the year.

Last night certainly looked like it.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Galway Eagle on January 01, 2025, 01:08:02 PM
Quote from: Jockey on January 01, 2025, 12:52:43 PMWe are in the 2nd golden age of MU basketball.

So C- is about right. If not 1st, it can't be better than a 'C'.


As an aside, we really are in the 2nd golden age. ENJOY IT, people. Too many here can't accept success when they see it. Al would have been crucified on Scoop.

What was 02-13? I'd call 10/12 NCAA tournaments multiple top 10 teams, multiple conference championships, NCAA runs, NBA players and top 3 seeds worthy of calling it a golden age.

Maybe not 24 karat gold age but at least gold plated age.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Shaka Shart on January 01, 2025, 01:09:20 PM
Quote from: FairWeatherEagle on January 01, 2025, 10:11:33 AMWe really don't know...only that Bball has got to challenge what they do in the classroom. As for character though, they look real good from the outside-in. Shaka leadership, etc.
It was really good to see Jop in a PSA against drugs one day while I was watching something. Nice.

"Sometimes winning means not taking every shot I'm given,"

https://risedrugfreemke.org/news-events/blog.html/article/2024/11/27/partnering-with-mu-basketball-s-david-joplin-on-setting-boundaries-with-alcohol-and-other-drugs-multimedia-campaign

@Newsdreams uh oh
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: K1 Lover on January 01, 2025, 01:26:44 PM
Quote from: wadesworld on January 01, 2025, 10:02:51 AMI expected Kam to contend for BEPOY, and since he's only the favorite I can't give him higher than a C+.

That's a bit too generous for me. Every player gets a D because the athletic department scheduled against Dayton.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: cheebs09 on January 01, 2025, 01:42:39 PM
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 01, 2025, 01:08:02 PMWhat was 02-13? I'd call 10/12 NCAA tournaments multiple top 10 teams, multiple conference championships, NCAA runs, NBA players and top 3 seeds worthy of calling it a golden age.

Maybe not 24 karat gold age but at least gold plated age.

Agreed. I think we are doing some things we haven't done before, but the Crean/Buzz era was pretty good.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Galway Eagle on January 01, 2025, 03:10:25 PM
Quote from: cheebs09 on January 01, 2025, 01:42:39 PMAgreed. I think we are doing some things we haven't done before, but the Crean/Buzz era was pretty good.

Exactly I don't think it takes anything away from the current era but let's summarize that span

Conference Champs: 2x

Made tournament: 10x

Seeds: 5, 3, 7, 8, 6, 6, 6, 11, 3, 3

Runs: 2 R32s, 2 S16s, 1 E8, 1 F4.

NBA: 12 players

Current run:

Conference champs: 1x

Conference tournament champs 1x

Made Tournament: 3x

Seeds: 9, 2, 2

Runs: 1 R32, 1 S16

NBA: 3 (4? Can't recall if Justin logged any time)

We need a few more years before we can act like the 02-13 run is clearly a notch below.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on January 01, 2025, 03:16:01 PM
Interestingly I've never considered combining the Wade years with the amigos/Buzz years. I've always thought of them as two seperate eras. I don't think it's wrong to combine them, i just never have.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: mug644 on January 01, 2025, 04:34:32 PM
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on January 01, 2025, 03:16:01 PMInterestingly I've never considered combining the Wade years with the amigos/Buzz years. I've always thought of them as two seperate eras. I don't think it's wrong to combine them, i just never have.

I'm the same. The end of 2004-05--with Diener's injury, a plethora of losses and the debacle against Western Michigan in the NIT--has always felt like the transition from one era to the next. I know Crean coached the Amigos the following year, but it just feels like a different time to me. Perhaps it was the move into the Big East in 2004-05 that is really the marker of a change in eras.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Newsdreams on January 01, 2025, 04:48:36 PM
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 01, 2025, 03:10:25 PMExactly I don't think it takes anything away from the current era but let's summarize that span

Conference Champs: 2x

Made tournament: 10x

Seeds: 5, 3, 7, 8, 6, 6, 6, 11, 3, 3

Runs: 2 R32s, 2 S16s, 1 E8, 1 F4.

NBA: 12 players

Current run:

Conference champs: 1x

Conference tournament champs 1x

Made Tournament: 3x

Seeds: 9, 2, 2

Runs: 1 R32, 1 S16

NBA: 3 (4? Can't recall if Justin logged any time)

We need a few more years before we can act like the 02-13 run is clearly a notch below.
Shaka suxs. We need to mix Woj / Shaka
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: tower912 on January 01, 2025, 04:52:11 PM
Quote from: Newsdreams on January 01, 2025, 04:48:36 PMShaka suxs. We need to mix Woj / Shaka
With Kam and Stevie, MU still is.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Newsdreams on January 01, 2025, 05:00:09 PM
Quote from: tower912 on January 01, 2025, 04:52:11 PMWith Kam and Stevie, MU still is.
Shaka needs to thank Woj
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: tower912 on January 01, 2025, 05:08:37 PM
He has before.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Newsdreams on January 01, 2025, 05:27:23 PM
Quote from: tower912 on January 01, 2025, 05:08:37 PMHe has before.
True
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Shaka Shart on January 01, 2025, 06:56:48 PM
Quote from: tower912 on January 01, 2025, 05:08:37 PMHe has before.

Why is Shaka dwelling on the past instead of recruiting aircraft carriers
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: tower912 on January 01, 2025, 07:03:26 PM
In all seriousness, my grades are based on being 12-2, 3-0, #8.  So, A.  I thought the preseason polls were fair with MU in the mid teens.  I also thought that MU'S ceiling was every bit as high as last season.   So far, so good.

Stay healthy, hit 3's, develop the bench.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Jay Bee on January 01, 2025, 07:32:04 PM
Need to see first semester GPAs before I'm able to opine
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Herman Cain on January 01, 2025, 07:54:26 PM
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 01, 2025, 03:10:25 PMExactly I don't think it takes anything away from the current era but let's summarize that span

Conference Champs: 2x

Made tournament: 10x

Seeds: 5, 3, 7, 8, 6, 6, 6, 11, 3, 3

Runs: 2 R32s, 2 S16s, 1 E8, 1 F4.

NBA: 12 players

Current run:

Conference champs: 1x

Conference tournament champs 1x

Made Tournament: 3x

Seeds: 9, 2, 2

Runs: 1 R32, 1 S16

NBA: 3 (4? Can't recall if Justin logged any time)

We need a few more years before we can act like the 02-13 run is clearly a notch below.

02-13 Period was definitely an Excellent Age of MU Basketball. It built a very strong foundation which enabled MU to survive the Wojo era with our progress slowed but not stymied.

I was around during the Al era, Our Golden Age,and this current Age of MU Basketball is definitely starting to be reminiscent of the feeling we had during the early part of the Al era (when #24 and #14 made a lot of noise) 

MU has had very legitimate paths the last two years to winning a National Championship and barring injury have a bona fide path this year. Those pathways, past and present,  are validated by #2 seeds, consistent top 10 rankings, consistently beating top 10 teams, having the best individual player on the floor in multiple seasons, each who will rank among MU all time greats.  Yes it is early days in this age of MU basketball, and more time is needed, but the baseline is absolutely superb. I am very confident in Shaka's ability to build the program from here.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Newsdreams on January 01, 2025, 08:50:31 PM
Quote from: Jay Bee on January 01, 2025, 07:32:04 PMNeed to see first semester GPAs before I'm able to opine
And make sure they all can read
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: barfolomew on January 02, 2025, 08:40:07 AM
If the season ended today, here would be the ten best seasons of Marquette basketball net efficiency in the Kenpom era:

Shaka S. 24-25 -- +26.01
Shaka S. 23-24 -- +23.02
Shaka S. 22-23 -- +22.38
Tom C.  07-08 -- +22.16
Tom C. 01-02 -- +21.47
Tom C. 02-03 -- +21.30
Brent W. 08-09 -- +21.02
Brent W. 11-12 -- +20.22
Brent W. 09-10 -- +19.65
Brent W. 12-13 -- +18.32

Best for Steve W. 19-20 -- +17.19

Best for Mike D.  96-97 -- +15.62

Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Newsdreams on January 02, 2025, 09:19:03 AM
Crean sucks
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Goose on January 02, 2025, 10:22:17 AM
I think the Shaka era will end up being the second best, or possibly best, era in MU basketball history. As Herman noted, the past two years I felt MU had a very strong chance of making the FF and feel the same way this season. They have been consistently ranked in the top for much of the last 2+ seasons and have looked like they belonged there.

IMO, this is different than other mini runs of success because there is system in place that looks built for long term success. Again, having three straight years with a team very capable of making a FF is very impressive.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: GoldenEagles03 on January 02, 2025, 10:33:53 AM
Quote from: Goose on January 02, 2025, 10:22:17 AMI think the Shaka era will end up being the second best, or possibly best, era in MU basketball history. As Herman noted, the past two years I felt MU had a very strong chance of making the FF and feel the same way this season. They have been consistently ranked in the top for much of the last 2+ seasons and have looked like they belonged there.

IMO, this is different than other mini runs of success because there is system in place that looks built for long term success. Again, having three straight years with a team very capable of making a FF is very impressive.

Taking Bill Chandler out of the equation...I think Shaka has a real chance to be Marquette's longest tenured coach.

Crean and Buzz always seemed like guys who would use MU as a stepping stone so their eras were always going to be cut short. Doesn't really feel like that with Shaka.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: TallTitan34 on January 02, 2025, 10:37:27 AM
Quote from: mug644 on January 01, 2025, 04:34:32 PMI'm the same. The end of 2004-05--with Diener's injury, a plethora of losses and the debacle against Western Michigan in the NIT--has always felt like the transition from one era to the next. I know Crean coached the Amigos the following year, but it just feels like a different time to me. Perhaps it was the move into the Big East in 2004-05 that is really the marker of a change in eras.

I always enjoy that Chris Otule played with both the Amigos and Jajuan Johnson.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: PointWarrior on January 02, 2025, 12:22:03 PM
Scrimmage hot dog debacle takes down every players grade by 1....
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Pepe Sylvia on January 02, 2025, 01:37:29 PM
Quote from: PointWarrior on January 02, 2025, 12:22:03 PMScrimmage hot dog debacle takes down every players grade by 1....
I was told it was the players' decision to close concessions so it seems fair to me.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: DoctorV on January 02, 2025, 06:23:24 PM
Quote from: Goose on January 02, 2025, 10:22:17 AMI think the Shaka era will end up being the second best, or possibly best, era in MU basketball history. As Herman noted, the past two years I felt MU had a very strong chance of making the FF and feel the same way this season. They have been consistently ranked in the top for much of the last 2+ seasons and have looked like they belonged there.

IMO, this is different than other mini runs of success because there is system in place that looks built for long term success. Again, having three straight years with a team very capable of making a FF is very impressive.

Would a Natty in 2025 catapult the Shaka era to the best ever?

I assume not quite. How many extra good to great seasons would be needed?

I wasn't around for the Al years.

So much for 5 years to judge
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Shaka Shart on January 02, 2025, 06:25:51 PM
Quote from: DoctorV on January 02, 2025, 06:23:24 PMWould a Natty in 2025 catapult the Shaka era to the best ever?

I assume not quite. How many extra good to great seasons would be needed?

I wasn't around for the Al years.

So much for 5 years to judge

There was an option for 4 years to judge in there, remember. We are right in the sweet spot.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Galway Eagle on January 02, 2025, 10:21:41 PM
Quote from: DoctorV on January 02, 2025, 06:23:24 PMWould a Natty in 2025 catapult the Shaka era to the best ever?

I assume not quite. How many extra good to great seasons would be needed?

I wasn't around for the Al years.

So much for 5 years to judge

Shaka could make us the next 60s/70s ucla and there's still be people saying Al's teams were better lol.

Shaka does the past two years and stays on track this with little to no fall off next year and the year after and I think he's solidified second greatest era. Make a FF or a natty or (knocks on wood) win a natty. And it certainly starts to become a debate for greatest.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 02, 2025, 10:45:54 PM
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 02, 2025, 10:21:41 PMShaka could make us the next 60s/70s ucla and there's still be people saying Al's teams were better lol.

Shaka does the past two years and stays on track this with little to no fall off next year and the year after and I think he's solidified second greatest era. Make a FF or a natty or (knocks on wood) win a natty. And it certainly starts to become a debate for greatest.

Your first paragraph is (I assume and hope) intentional hyperbole.

Matching Al over a 10 year period) would mean 10 straight NCAA invites, 9 straight top 10 finishes in the AP poll, one National runner up, one National Championship, 4 Elite 8s and 8 S16s. The landscape is harder today so Shaka could match Al with a resume' a bit less gaudy - but it's a stretch. Still, he's easily the best we've had since.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on January 02, 2025, 11:47:39 PM
Quote from: DoctorV on January 02, 2025, 06:23:24 PMSo much for 5 years to judge

5 years to judge is an outdated phrase. Once insta transfers became a thing you could start judging right away.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Galway Eagle on January 02, 2025, 11:56:43 PM
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 02, 2025, 10:45:54 PMYour first paragraph is (I assume and hope) intentional hyperbole.


Yes and no. There's definitely some posters I could see saying "it was harder back then" "Al laid the groundwork so he gets credit here as well" "these guys still couldn't carry any Al player's jock" but yeah overall was intentional hyperbole overall
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Uncle Rico on January 03, 2025, 07:25:02 AM
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 02, 2025, 11:56:43 PMYes and no. There's definitely some posters I could see saying "it was harder back then" "Al laid the groundwork so he gets credit here as well" "these guys still couldn't carry any Al player's jock" but yeah overall was intentional hyperbole overall

College basketball is way deeper and way more competitive than the 1970's.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Galway Eagle on January 03, 2025, 08:09:56 AM
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 03, 2025, 07:25:02 AMCollege basketball is way deeper and way more competitive than the 1970's.

Another classic Rico comedy post
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: mileskishnish72 on January 03, 2025, 08:55:03 AM
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 02, 2025, 10:21:41 PMShaka could make us the next 60s/70s ucla and there's still be people saying Al's teams were better lol.

In some of our elders reminiscing plays a part in evaluating the two eras. Shaka hasn't caught Al yet, but I do hope that the comparison gets more and more difficult to debate.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: TallTitan34 on January 03, 2025, 09:16:43 AM
Well before my time but I've always been kind of pissed Al went to the NIT in 1970.  It's a fun story and all but I'd much rather have a legit shot at another natty.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Hards Alumni on January 03, 2025, 09:25:31 AM
Quote from: TallTitan34 on January 03, 2025, 09:16:43 AMWell before my time but I've always been kind of pissed Al went to the NIT in 1970.  It's a fun story and all but I'd much rather have a legit shot at another natty.

I agree.  Depending on the fan's POV Al was giving the NCAA the finger, but really he was being rather petty.

Cut off your nose to spite your face energy
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Galway Eagle on January 03, 2025, 09:55:45 AM
Quote from: Hards Alumni on January 03, 2025, 09:25:31 AMI agree.  Depending on the fan's POV Al was giving the NCAA the finger, but really he was being rather petty.

Cut off your nose to spite your face energy

My favorite excuse is the "nit was basically on par with the ncaa tournament at the time. We had to beat Pistol Pete and Dr J to win it!" Argument.

Someone on Reddit did a deep look at rankings, records, etc of the NCAA vs NIT and it turns out the argument that it was ever on par is pretty much BS.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CollegeBasketball/comments/1c53o8n/examining_the_claim_that_the_nit_was_better_than/
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: MU82 on January 05, 2025, 10:50:23 AM
Quote from: DoctorV on January 02, 2025, 06:23:24 PMWould a Natty in 2025 catapult the Shaka era to the best ever?

Looking forward to finding out!
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 05, 2025, 11:07:14 AM
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 03, 2025, 09:55:45 AMMy favorite excuse is the "nit was basically on par with the ncaa tournament at the time. We had to beat Pistol Pete and Dr J to win it!" Argument.

Someone on Reddit did a deep look at rankings, records, etc of the NCAA vs NIT and it turns out the argument that it was ever on par is pretty much BS.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CollegeBasketball/comments/1c53o8n/examining_the_claim_that_the_nit_was_better_than/

The NIT was not the equivalent of the NCAA. But a whole lot of teams who have won NCAA titles would have been left out of the field back in the day - only 1 team from each conference was invited, in some cases the regular season champion, in others the post season tournament champ.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: muwarrior69 on January 05, 2025, 11:31:22 AM
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 02, 2025, 10:45:54 PMYour first paragraph is (I assume and hope) intentional hyperbole.

Matching Al over a 10 year period) would mean 10 straight NCAA invites, 9 straight top 10 finishes in the AP poll, one National runner up, one National Championship, 4 Elite 8s and 8 S16s. The landscape is harder today so Shaka could match Al with a resume' a bit less gaudy - but it's a stretch. Still, he's easily the best we've had since.

Today you have to win 2 games to make the S16 and 3 games to make the E8. Back in Al's time he had to win 1 game to make the S16 and 3 games to make the E8. As for the landscape being harder, that is open for debate. We were always placed in the Mid East Region, 1970 being the exception; which meant we had to play the SEC champ and the Big 10 Champ to just to make it the final 4. That all changed when they expanded the tournament to 32 in the 70s.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Scoop Snoop on January 05, 2025, 01:16:13 PM
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 03, 2025, 09:55:45 AMMy favorite excuse is the "nit was basically on par with the ncaa tournament at the time. We had to beat Pistol Pete and Dr J to win it!" Argument.

Someone on Reddit did a deep look at rankings, records, etc of the NCAA vs NIT and it turns out the argument that it was ever on par is pretty much BS.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CollegeBasketball/comments/1c53o8n/examining_the_claim_that_the_nit_was_better_than/

I was a senior that year and the mood on campus was very dark after Al made that decision. I do not recall anyone at the time saying that the NIT was "on par" with the NCAA tourney. Even back then, we knew the NIT was a distant second, but I know that you are referring to the after-the-fact BS arguments.

According to Gasaway in Miracles on Hardwood, Marquette's assistant to the president called Al to try to change his mind. Al's response allegedly was "Father, I don't hear confession, and you don't coach this team".

The Marquette Tribune tried to put a positive spin on Al's decision, but no one was buying it. Hearing about Al's decision was absolutely awful- a HUGE gut punch.  
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Herman Cain on January 05, 2025, 08:33:28 PM
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on January 05, 2025, 01:16:13 PMI was a senior that year and the mood on campus was very dark after Al made that decision. I do not recall anyone at the time saying that the NIT was "on par" with the NCAA tourney. Even back then, we knew the NIT was a distant second, but I know that you are referring to the after-the-fact BS arguments.

According to Gasaway in Miracles on Hardwood, Marquette's assistant to the president called Al to try to change his mind. Al's response allegedly was "Father, I don't hear confession, and you don't coach this team".

The Marquette Tribune tried to put a positive spin on Al's decision, but no one was buying it. Hearing about Al's decision was absolutely awful- a HUGE gut punch.   
1970 was also probably the second best chance to beat UCLA during the Wooden years. As the Bruins were between Alcindor and Walton and no other blue blood of that Era  was all that strong  . 72 was probably the best chance prior to Chones leaving.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: We R Final Four on January 05, 2025, 08:44:29 PM
Al won a title.
That's the bar.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 05, 2025, 08:59:52 PM
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on January 05, 2025, 01:16:13 PMI was a senior that year and the mood on campus was very dark after Al made that decision. I do not recall anyone at the time saying that the NIT was "on par" with the NCAA tourney. Even back then, we knew the NIT was a distant second, but I know that you are referring to the after-the-fact BS arguments.

According to Gasaway in Miracles on Hardwood, Marquette's assistant to the president called Al to try to change his mind. Al's response allegedly was "Father, I don't hear confession, and you don't coach this team".

The Marquette Tribune tried to put a positive spin on Al's decision, but no one was buying it. Hearing about Al's decision was absolutely awful- a HUGE gut punch. 

I was also a senior in 1970. I agree that nobody who followed basketball thought that the NIT was on a par with the NCAA. It wasn't a distant second, but it was the lesser of the two.

I disagree, though, with your assertion that the students and general fandom was up in arms over the decision. Al had built up a ton of political capital with the fans by then, and when he spent some of it telling the NCAA to shove it everybody I knew (while maybe a tad disappointed) backed him. The team played their asses off, won going away and it became the first celebratory March run to Lake Michigan in Marquette history.

I was on that run, and everybody was stoked. I assume you missed it. Too bad.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Goose on January 05, 2025, 09:35:43 PM
Snoop

While I was a very young guy in 1970, I am pretty familiar with the NIT situation and it was not dark time for anyone in the inside circle. I would argue that the decision to go to NIT was one of the most influential decisions in program history, and a positive one.

That decision solidified MU and Al as a force to be taken seriously. More importantly, getting the win in the Garden added to the decision. Lose the NIT and it might have been a different story.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Nukem2 on January 05, 2025, 09:35:57 PM
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 05, 2025, 08:59:52 PMI was also a senior in 1970. I agree that nobody who followed basketball thought that the NIT was on a par with the NCAA. It wasn't a distant second, but it was the lesser of the two.

I disagree, though, with your assertion that the students and general fandom was up in arms over the decision. Al had built up a ton of political capital with the fans by then, and when he spent some of it telling the NCAA to shove it everybody I knew (while maybe a tad disappointed) backed him. The team played their asses off, won going away and it became the first celebratory March run to Lake Michigan in Marquette history.

I was on that run, and everybody was stoked. I assume you missed it. Too bad.

Ah, you be a septuagenarian (like me).
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Scoop Snoop on January 05, 2025, 10:07:38 PM
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 05, 2025, 08:59:52 PMI was also a senior in 1970. I agree that nobody who followed basketball thought that the NIT was on a par with the NCAA. It wasn't a distant second, but it was the lesser of the two.

I disagree, though, with your assertion that the students and general fandom was up in arms over the decision. Al had built up a ton of political capital with the fans by then, and when he spent some of it telling the NCAA to shove it everybody I knew (while maybe a tad disappointed) backed him. The team played their asses off, won going away and it became the first celebratory March run to Lake Michigan in Marquette history.

I was on that run, and everybody was stoked. I assume you missed it. Too bad.


You "assume" WAY too much Lenny. By dark I meant unhappy. I did not say "up in arms", but you did. Some "assertion". Instead of asking what I meant, you decided that you knew what I meant. You missed it. Too bad. Next time, take a deep breath and THINK before you post crap like this.

Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Scoop Snoop on January 05, 2025, 10:19:26 PM
Quote from: Goose on January 05, 2025, 09:35:43 PMSnoop

While I was a very young guy in 1970, I am pretty familiar with the NIT situation and it was not dark time for anyone in the inside circle. I would argue that the decision to go to NIT was one of the most influential decisions in program history, and a positive one.

That decision solidified MU and Al as a force to be taken seriously. More importantly, getting the win in the Garden added to the decision. Lose the NIT and it might have been a different story.

We have different recollections Goose. We went to the second best tourney when we had a chance to go to the best one. Yes, students enjoyed MU winning the NIT and celebrated. That does not change the missed opportunity. There was no "up in arms" about Al's decision, but disappointment.

I appreciate the tone of your post that, unlike Lenny's, politely disagreed with me rather than distorting what I wrote. Of course, that's his M.O. on so many of his posts, so I should not be surprised. He's a shoot first, ask questions later kind of guy. 
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: DoctorV on January 05, 2025, 10:38:29 PM
Where's Oilcan when you need 'em?
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 05, 2025, 10:40:12 PM
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on January 05, 2025, 10:07:38 PMYou "assume" WAY too much Lenny. By dark I meant unhappy. I did not say "up in arms", but you did. Some "assertion". Instead of asking what I meant, you decided that you knew what I meant. You missed it. Too bad. Next time, take a deep breath and THINK before you post crap like this.



Now you say dark. By dark did you mean VERY dark? Because that's what you wrote. So I guess you meant that everyone was VERY unhappy. The mood on campus and among players, coaches and fans was not very dark. The press, the players and most fans backed Al's decision and celebrated every win, especially the semi final over Maravich and the final over Al's alma mater St John's.

I'm sorry the whole thing left you very dark and very unhappy. I'm sorry that for you it was it was a huge gut punch. You missed some great celebrations.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 05, 2025, 10:44:32 PM
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on January 05, 2025, 10:19:26 PMWe have different recollections Goose. We went to the second best tourney when we had a chance to go to the best one. Yes, students enjoyed MU winning the NIT and celebrated. That does not change the missed opportunity. There was no "up in arms" about Al's decision, but disappointment.

I appreciate the tone of your post that, unlike Lenny's, politely disagreed with me rather than distorting what I wrote. Of course, that's his M.O. on so many of his posts, so I should not be surprised. He's a shoot first, ask questions later kind of guy. 

Quote from: Goose on January 05, 2025, 09:35:43 PMSnoop

While I was a very young guy in 1970, I am pretty familiar with the NIT situation and it was not dark time for anyone in the inside circle. I would argue that the decision to go to NIT was one of the most influential decisions in program history, and a positive one.

That decision solidified MU and Al as a force to be taken seriously. More importantly, getting the win in the Garden added to the decision. Lose the NIT and it might have been a different story.

Spot on Goose.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Scoop Snoop on January 06, 2025, 06:21:05 AM
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 05, 2025, 10:40:12 PMNow you say dark. By dark did you mean VERY dark? Because that's what you wrote. So I guess you meant that everyone was VERY unhappy. The mood on campus and among players, coaches and fans was not very dark. The press, the players and most fans backed Al's decision and celebrated every win, especially the semi final over Maravich and the final over Al's alma mater St John's.

I'm sorry the whole thing left you very dark and very unhappy. I'm sorry that for you it was it was a huge gut punch. You missed some great celebrations.

I'm sorry that you lack reading comprehension. Once again, you have decided to rewrite my post. You decided that I wrote "everyone" was unhappy" and that I did not enjoy the celebrations.

We missed a chance to probably play the mega power in college bball, UCLA, for an NCAA natty and took an NIT natty instead over St. Johns. I watched the NIT games, was happy that we won, but did not enjoy the NCAA championship game as much. There were plenty of students who shared my take. I spoke with them, but of course this will be taken as another opportunity to rewrite my post.

Notice that scoopers hope for a second natty. No one ever posted "I hope we win another NIT championship."

Also notice that you get into a ton of fights with a lot of scoopers.  ::)  You get up in arms. Of course, you're right, they're wrong, and that settles it. 
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 06, 2025, 06:43:51 AM
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on January 06, 2025, 06:21:05 AMI'm sorry that you lack reading comprehension. Once again, you have decided to rewrite my post. You decided that I wrote "everyone" was unhappy" and that I did not enjoy the celebrations.

We missed a chance to probably play the mega power in college bball, UCLA, for an NCAA natty and took an NIT natty instead over St. Johns. I watched the NIT games, was happy that we won, but did not enjoy the NCAA championship game as much. There were plenty of students who shared my take. I spoke with them, but of course this will be taken as another opportunity to rewrite my post.

Notice that scoopers hope for a second natty. No one ever posted "I hope we win another NIT championship."

Also notice that you get into a ton of fights with a lot of scoopers.  ::)  You get up in arms. Of course, you're right, they're wrong, and that settles it. 

Tons of fights? LOL. How many fights in a ton? Meanwhile, your contributions consist of attacks on Muggsy and piling on in other discussions. Or misrepresenting Marquette's past.
In March of 1970 the mood on campus was not very dark. Hearing about Al's decision was not awful and it wasn't a HUGE gut punch - for the players and coaches and for the vast majority of Marquette students and fans. Maybe personally for you, but not as a general rule.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Scoop Snoop on January 06, 2025, 07:11:40 AM
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 06, 2025, 06:43:51 AMTons of fights? LOL. How many fights in a ton? Meanwhile, your contributions consist of attacks on Muggsy and piling on in other discussions. Or misrepresenting Marquette's past.
In March of 1970 the mood on campus was not very dark. Hearing about Al's decision was not awful and it wasn't a HUGE gut punch - for the players and coaches and for the vast majority of Marquette students and fans. Maybe personally for you, but not as a general rule.

 ;D I think you take first place for "perpetually pissed" on scoop. You might want to check the "What's wrong with people" thread. Time for another post by you there.  Posts # 134 and #135 are interesting.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: wiscwarrior on January 06, 2025, 07:55:46 AM
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 05, 2025, 08:59:52 PMI was also a senior in 1970. I agree that nobody who followed basketball thought that the NIT was on a par with the NCAA. It wasn't a distant second, but it was the lesser of the two.

I disagree, though, with your assertion that the students and general fandom was up in arms over the decision. Al had built up a ton of political capital with the fans by then, and when he spent some of it telling the NCAA to shove it everybody I knew (while maybe a tad disappointed) backed him. The team played their asses off, won going away and it became the first celebratory March run to Lake Michigan in Marquette history.

I was on that run, and everybody was stoked. I assume you missed it. Too bad.


Little nit: It may have been the second one. I was on one in '67 when we made the finals of the NIT in Al's third year.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Scoop Snoop on January 06, 2025, 07:58:15 AM
Quote from: wiscwarrior on January 06, 2025, 07:55:46 AMLittle nit: It may have been the second one. I was on one in '67 when we made the finals of the NIT in Al's third year.

I remember that! It was fun.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Viper on January 06, 2025, 08:00:16 AM
Quote from: Jockey on January 01, 2025, 12:52:43 PMWe are in the 2nd golden age of MU basketball.

So C- is about right. If not 1st, it can't be better than a 'C'.


As an aside, we really are in the 2nd golden age. ENJOY IT, people. Too many here can't accept success when they see it. Al would have been crucified on Scoop.
2nd Golden Age? Well, we are the Golden eagles!  But that Crean-Buzz era, all things DWade, Crowder BE POY, F4, E8...I think Shaka gets there...and maybe beyond, but let's hold off for a few more seasons before making declarations of glory.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Galway Eagle on January 06, 2025, 09:02:56 AM
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 06, 2025, 06:43:51 AMTons of fights? LOL. How many fights in a ton?

I don't really have a dog in this race but let's be honest your feud with Chicos was in every thread for a good 5 years.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: dgies9156 on January 06, 2025, 09:33:40 AM
Quote from: DoctorV on January 02, 2025, 06:23:24 PMWould a Natty in 2025 catapult the Shaka era to the best ever?

I assume not quite. How many extra good to great seasons would be needed?

I wasn't around for the Al years.

So much for 5 years to judge

I was and if we landed a Natty, it would be on par with the Al era.

Coach Shaka has done something few have done at Marquette, win from the outset. His approach to basketball is much like Al's -- defense first -- though his style is very different.

I agree with Goose. We're in for a long run of very good basketball, so long as someone in the administration doesn't screw it up. I'm hopeful this will be the renaissance of if not the greatest era ever of Marquette basketball.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: tower912 on January 06, 2025, 09:39:20 AM
I don't know if MU wins another natty.  Too many things have to go right.  A run similar to Gonzaga's would be OK.  Sustained excellence.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: MU82 on January 06, 2025, 09:50:03 AM
Quote from: tower912 on January 06, 2025, 09:39:20 AMI don't know if MU wins another natty.  Too many things have to go right.  A run similar to Gonzaga's would be OK.  Sustained excellence.

Yep. I want us to win another title, and I think we have the necessary things in place to do so, but it takes so much luck as well as tremendous skill.

As one who wondered aloud a few years ago why Marquette couldn't be the next Villanova or next Gonzaga, I agree that a long stretch of sustained excellence would be wonderful.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Scoop Snoop on January 06, 2025, 10:36:53 AM
Quote from: dgies9156 on January 06, 2025, 09:33:40 AMI was and if we landed a Natty, it would be on par with the Al era.

Coach Shaka has done something few have done at Marquette, win from the outset. His approach to basketball is much like Al's -- defense first -- though his style is very different.

I agree with Goose. We're in for a long run of very good basketball, so long as someone in the administration doesn't screw it up. I'm hopeful this will be the renaissance of if not the greatest era ever of Marquette basketball.

Shaka and Marquette are the perfect basketball marriage partners. Love it!
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 06, 2025, 02:24:34 PM
Quote from: wiscwarrior on January 06, 2025, 07:55:46 AMLittle nit: It may have been the second one. I was on one in '67 when we made the finals of the NIT in Al's third year.

Yep, we were up by maybe 9 at half vs SIU, but Clyde Frazier and the Salukis boat raced us in the 2nd half. Think we lost by around 15 or so.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: wiscwarrior on January 06, 2025, 02:49:13 PM
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 06, 2025, 02:24:34 PMYep, we were up by maybe 9 at half vs SIU, but Clyde Frazier and the Salukis boat raced us in the 2nd half. Think we lost by around 15 or so.

Think we beat UMass and Dr. J in the semis although I'm old may be misremembering. NIT wasn't the NCAA, but there were some pretty good teams playing in it. Only 24 or maybe 32 teams made the Big Dance at that time.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 06, 2025, 03:22:32 PM
Quote from: wiscwarrior on January 06, 2025, 02:49:13 PMThink we beat UMass and Dr. J in the semis although I'm old may be misremembering. NIT wasn't the NCAA, but there were some pretty good teams playing in it. Only 24 or maybe 32 teams made the Big Dance at that time.

We actually beat UMass and Dr J in the first round of our 1970 NIT championship run.

In 1967 our most notable NIT win was by 1 point over a Jimmy Walker led Providence team.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: wiscwarrior on January 06, 2025, 03:31:08 PM
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 06, 2025, 03:22:32 PMWe actually beat UMass and Dr J in the first round of our 1970 NIT championship run.

In 1967 our most notable NIT win was by 1 point over a Jimmy Walker led Providence team.

There you go. I knew we beat a pretty good player in '67. Jimmy Walker was in the back of my mind, but I couldn't remember when we played him. Thanks.
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: tower912 on January 06, 2025, 03:35:25 PM
That sounds like dyn-o-mite
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 06, 2025, 04:12:05 PM
Quote from: wiscwarrior on January 06, 2025, 03:31:08 PMThere you go. I knew we beat a pretty good player in '67. Jimmy Walker was in the back of my mind, but I couldn't remember when we played him. Thanks.

You bet
Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: barfolomew on May 13, 2025, 12:27:43 PM
Quote from: barfolomew on January 02, 2025, 08:40:07 AMIf the season ended today, here would be the ten best seasons of Marquette basketball net efficiency in the Kenpom era:

Shaka S. 24-25 -- +26.01
Shaka S. 23-24 -- +23.02
Shaka S. 22-23 -- +22.38
Tom C.  07-08 -- +22.16
Tom C. 01-02 -- +21.47
Tom C. 02-03 -- +21.30
Brent W. 08-09 -- +21.02
Brent W. 11-12 -- +20.22
Brent W. 09-10 -- +19.65
Brent W. 12-13 -- +18.32

Best for Steve W. 19-20 -- +17.19

Best for Mike D.  96-97 -- +15.62


Not bumping this to rehash what has already been discussed in length, but wanted to update the top ten ranking with the final Kenpom number for last season:

Shaka S. 23-24 -- +23.02
Shaka S. 22-23 -- +22.38
Tom C.  07-08 -- +22.16
Tom C. 01-02 -- +21.47
Tom C. 02-03 -- +21.30
Brent W. 08-09 -- +21.02
Shaka S. 24-25 -- +21.01
Brent W. 11-12 -- +20.22
Brent W. 09-10 -- +19.65
Brent W. 12-13 -- +18.32

Best for Steve W. 19-20 -- +17.19

Best for Mike D.  96-97 -- +15.62

Title: Re: Mid-season grades
Post by: Jay Bee on May 13, 2025, 02:05:55 PM
Quote from: barfolomew on May 13, 2025, 12:27:43 PMNot bumping this to rehash what has already been discussed in length, but wanted to update the top ten ranking with the final Kenpom number for last season:

Shaka S. 23-24 -- +23.02
Shaka S. 22-23 -- +22.38
Tom C.  07-08 -- +22.16
Tom C. 01-02 -- +21.47
Tom C. 02-03 -- +21.30
Brent W. 08-09 -- +21.02
Shaka S. 24-25 -- +21.01
Brent W. 11-12 -- +20.22
Brent W. 09-10 -- +19.65
Brent W. 12-13 -- +18.32

Best for Steve W. 19-20 -- +17.19

Best for Mike D.  96-97 -- +15.62



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