Since Tower posted he isn't watching until later, I will do a game recap.
1. Stevie Mitchell just makes winning plays. Saved the game at the end with his steals.
2. David Joplin had some ill advised shots in the first half, but was great in the 2nd half. And his defense was great all day.
3. Kam found his game in the 2nd half after a very rough 1st half. 20 points, 8 assists, ho hum.
4. Ben Gold was very solid. Dependable defense and efficient offense. 11 points, made three treys, and ran the floor for a dunk on a nice pass from Kam.
5. Defense was great for 35 minutes, then not so great...until Stevie returned.
6. Bench played solid D, including Royce and Damarius. Was nice to see that improvement.
7. No Caedin today. Reminder, he's a project...patience.
8. Shaka calling timeout up 13 gave me flashbacks to Buzz calling timeout at Georgetown. Xavier went on their run immediately after that. Never give your opponent a free timeout.
9. Chase was invisible today, which is probably why the officials didn't call anything at the end. But, seriously I think that has to be a no call there. Incidental contact...and the refs probably owed us one after giving Xavier a FT parade in the 2nd half.
10. Win anyway.
Think Jop is best from three when he just catches and shoots. No time to think.
I think it should have been a tripping foul at the end but X got quite a few questionable calls go their way.
I have always hated refs telling a bench to sit down. They stopped play making MU have to inbound it which led to a turnover and easy X bucket.
Fox had terrible picture and sound all day. Woof.
I do wish Shaka would have called a TO during that late X run.
Chase and Stevie appear banged up so hopefully 10 days off gets them right!
That was clearly a foul on Chase.
The refs were very inconsistent (what's new), but Marquette does commit a lot of ticky tack stuff...often on the perimeter and often early in the half, that really benefits the opposition down the stretch. I love the aggressive defense, but sometimes their aggression gets them into trouble.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 21, 2024, 01:48:55 PMThat was clearly a foul on Chase.
The refs were very inconsistent (what's new), but Marquette does commit a lot of ticky tack stuff...often on the perimeter and often early in the half, that really benefits the opposition down the stretch. I love the aggressive defense, but sometimes their aggression gets them into trouble.
100% agree here. Have to be smarter picking their spots. Reaching in and slapping at the ball is gonna get called a ton away from the hoop. Need to wall up on those traps.
Nice summary. Agree with all points except 9, I thought it was a foul.
There was a weird sense imo at about 5:30 left that Marquette would get into trouble with Stevie and Chase on 4 fouls, and then Kam missed the front end and X nailed a 3.
Game got away from Shaka a bit at that point imo.
Odd take of the day for me-
Tre was good/serviceable today, but there were several times in the 2H where I was begging for Shaka to give us a lineup of
Benny, Parham, Jop, Damarius, Kam. For some reason I'd really like to see it. Nice length, when the frosh are playing defense it might work.
You could slide in Stevie to give Kam a break or Zaide in Owens spot here, but I like the length aspect and the scoring ability that would come from that lineup, in moments where the offense stagnates
Thought our bench gave us some really good minutes. Shaka gives them a lot of run, which should help in the future. Think Tre is turning a bit of a corner.
If we're going to go anywhere, our bench has to get a lot better. We were borderline helpless when Stevie and Chase were sitting for a longish stretch.
Good job filling in for Tower, especially with the title of the thread.
Quote from: CountryRoads on December 21, 2024, 01:55:02 PMThought our bench gave us some really good minutes. Shaka gives them a lot of run, which should help in the future. Think Tre is turning a bit of a corner.
They did and he did, but CT Warrior is right though. There just isn't any bench player that comes in that you can consistently count on rather than just playing well at the margins.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 21, 2024, 01:46:34 PMThink Jop is best from three when he just catches and shoots. No time to think.
I think it should have been a tripping foul at the end but X got quite a few questionable calls go their way.
I have always hated refs telling a bench to sit down. They stopped play making MU have to inbound it which led to a turnover and easy X bucket.
Fox had terrible picture and sound all day. Woof.
I do wish Shaka would have called a TO during that late X run.
Chase and Stevie appear banged up so hopefully 10 days off gets them right!
That non-call goes against MU, my family likely planning a funeral!!
Thought Tre had some nice minutes today.
Quote from: kclem on December 21, 2024, 02:02:33 PMGood job filling in for Tower, especially with the title of the thread.
Agreed. A+ thread title.
My observation of the team, aside from Kam, is that it looks like a football team with a slew of #2 and a couple of #3 receivers. There are guys that step up most games, but one of the non seniors needs to step it up on a consistent basis. To be honest, I would put Stevie and Jop in the same category.
As I mentioned last week, the ceiling is lower for this team and the floor is higher. Ross and Gold are my key guys going forward if this team can have a chance at top three BE and a run in tournament. I do not think you can leave it to chance and see who becomes 1b on this team on a given night.
I'm in the camp the last play was NOT a foul on Chase.
Chase's foot was planted. Chase's toes do rotate upward, heel planted, but that happens when #7 kicked/flicked Chase's foot as he tried and failed to jump over the planted foot.
.. Also .. Stevie Mitchell might be our most important player. Things went to complete hell when he was sitting w/4 PFs.
I thought our bench had a very solid game today.
Quote from: CountryRoads on December 21, 2024, 01:55:02 PMThought our bench gave us some really good minutes. Shaka gives them a lot of run, which should help in the future. Think Tre is turning a bit of a corner.
Sorry, I missed your post CR. I couldn't agree more. Loved Zaide's theft and bucket.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 21, 2024, 01:46:34 PMI have always hated refs telling a bench to sit down. They stopped play making MU have to inbound it which led to a turnover and easy X bucket.
Refs stopped MU twice with the X bench call and the shot clock not starting...both trips were unsuccessful.
Since on the other end, do not penalize the offense to give the warning. Wait until the change of possession.
This game reminded me of St. John's on the road last year. Up big with 6 left, went to hell, Kolek missed FTs, and SJ had last shot to win but we came away with a road W.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on December 21, 2024, 02:23:08 PMI'm in the camp the last play was NOT a foul on Chase.
Chase's foot was planted. Chase's toes do rotate upward, heel planted, but that happens when #7 kicked/flicked Chase's foot as he tried and failed to jump over the planted foot.
.. Also .. Stevie Mitchell might be our most important player. Things went to complete hell when he was sitting w/4 PFs.
Definitely, sure passed the eyetest for me.
If you foot is planted outside your body, they are going to call that foul. If that were the middle of the first half, that would have been called 10 times out of 10.
I don't know how many fouls they called against us today, but rest assured it will be double that at the Dunk or whatever they call that place these days.
Nice win. Happy for the team. Maybe lucky X's best player is injured. X game planned well for Kam going left in the first half. Kam went right in the 2nd half.
As a Jop questioner, I'll say this was Jop's best game so far. I think he even had an assist!
Chase is important.
Stevie is amazing. Made the plays that won the game.
W
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 21, 2024, 01:48:55 PMThat was clearly a foul on Chase.
The refs were very inconsistent (what's new), but Marquette does commit a lot of ticky tack stuff...often on the perimeter and often early in the half, that really benefits the opposition down the stretch. I love the aggressive defense, but sometimes their aggression gets them into trouble.
Well, they are not in a vaccum.
Agressive team generating lots of turnovers up top get ticky tack fouls.....thats the trade off. Easier said than done "I love all of our steals but I hate the ticky tack fouls. Comes with the territory.
Marquette up to 8th in KenPom. 15th in offensive efficiency and 16th in defensive efficiency.
Quote from: CTWarrior on December 21, 2024, 01:55:38 PMIf we're going to go anywhere, our bench has to get a lot better. We were borderline helpless when Stevie and Chase were sitting for a longish stretch.
its early. Shaka needs the bench to get up to speed on D first. All of January. All of February. 1/2 March. Practice. Watch. Learn. He is preparing them to be serviceable in March.
Quote from: CTWarrior on December 21, 2024, 01:55:38 PMIf we're going to go anywhere, our bench has to get a lot better. We were borderline helpless when Stevie and Chase were sitting for a longish stretch.
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Quote from: Goose on December 21, 2024, 02:19:48 PMMy observation of the team, aside from Kam, is that it looks like a football team with a slew of #2 and a couple of #3 receivers. There are guys that step up most games, but one of the non seniors needs to step it up on a consistent basis. To be honest, I would put Stevie and Jop in the same category.
As I mentioned last week, the ceiling is lower for this team and the floor is higher. Ross and Gold are my key guys going forward if this team can have a chance at top three BE and a run in tournament. I do not think you can leave it to chance and see who becomes 1b on this team on a given night.
Agree with your first paragraph. Not sure I agree with the second. If nobody improves at all, this team is top 2 in the Big East.
As for a run in the tournament, depends how you define that.
Quote from: BM1090 on December 21, 2024, 03:11:38 PMAgree with your first paragraph. Not sure I agree with the second. If nobody improves at all, this team is top 2 in the Big East.
As for a run in the tournament, depends how you define that.
Benny has been really good in recent weeks.
BM1090
They definitely could be top two in BE if no one steps up but I think that is a big task. IMO,Kam is the best player on the team and he does not really make the guys around him better. TK and Oso made everyone better and that is why the offense often looked beautiful.
This team is a work in progress to me. A lot to like, some things not to like and still question marks. By no stretch am I down on the team, just want to see more before getting too excited.
I think the fresh/sophs have all improved on the defensive end. Need that trend to continue and then we have something.
Kam/Stevie/Gold probably the 3 players we can least afford to be in foul trouble. In that order. Kam/Stevie on all around game, Gold due to height more than anything else.
When Jop and/or Gold score consistently, I like our chances.
Quote from: Goose on December 21, 2024, 03:28:18 PMBM1090They definitely could be top two in BE if no one steps up but I think that is a big task. IMO,Kam is the best player on the team and he does not really make the guys around him better. TK and Oso made everyone better and that is why the offense often looked beautiful.
Kam has the 7th highest assist rate in the country and doesn't make his teammates better? This is the Scoopiest of Scoop Takes. ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Goose on December 21, 2024, 03:28:18 PMBM1090
They definitely could be top two in BE if no one steps up but I think that is a big task. IMO,Kam is the best player on the team and he does not really make the guys around him better. TK and Oso made everyone better and that is why the offense often looked beautiful.
This team is a work in progress to me. A lot to like, some things not to like and still question marks. By no stretch am I down on the team, just want to see more before getting too excited.
I agree the offense doesn't look as pretty as last year. But it's actually been more efficient. Mostly due to less turnovers and significantly better offensive rebounding.
They might have more ugly wins, but if they win at PC on NYE I'd honestly be slightly surprised if they don't start 10-0 in conference.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 21, 2024, 03:17:41 PMBenny has been really good in recent weeks.
Brick? Per some here he is our worse player and should be benched
Self loathing navel gazers who lack perspective on how good MU really is.
Missing the forest for the trees.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 21, 2024, 03:39:35 PMKam has the 7th highest assist rate in the country and doesn't make his teammates better? This is the Scoopiest of Scoop Takes. ;D ;D ;D
Facts don't matter
Quote from: Goose on December 21, 2024, 03:28:18 PMBM1090
They definitely could be top two in BE if no one steps up but I think that is a big task. IMO,Kam is the best player on the team and he does not really make the guys around him better. TK and Oso made everyone better and that is why the offense often looked beautiful.
This team is a work in progress to me. A lot to like, some things not to like and still question marks. By no stretch am I down on the team, just want to see more before getting too excited.
I am with you on your assessment. This season could go either way. Sure wish we had Sean Jones back. He could be that 6th man this team needs. Afraid we will not see him until next season at this point.
Excited to see how this upcoming month plays out. I think the schedule is set up really nice for us. One game at a time I guess, but I won't be surprised if we make a nice run here now that we are into conference play.
I think our team was running on fumes and needs the 10 day break.
Quote from: Goose on December 21, 2024, 03:28:18 PMBM1090
They definitely could be top two in BE if no one steps up but I think that is a big task. IMO,Kam is the best player on the team and he does not really make the guys around him better. TK and Oso made everyone better and that is why the offense often looked beautiful.
This team is a work in progress to me. A lot to like, some things not to like and still question marks. By no stretch am I down on the team, just want to see more before getting too excited.
(https://i.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExdHl5eHNpaGcxcWc2NWtnNGE3c2NlaTc2NTR3MXhyM25rMjVvcTF2aiZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/yZ2FSn86bf2co/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Newsdreams on December 21, 2024, 03:48:23 PMBrick? Per some here he is our worse player and should be benched
He's gotten better once he realized the ball needs to go in the hoop from above...
and not DOWN UNDA
Brew
Then the supporting cast is not as good I had hoped they would be. My point is simply that they have to work extremely hard to get open looks, imo. At this point, a tremendous amount of production is on Kam's shoulders and hoping someone steps up.
As I said, I am not down on the team at all. Hoping that we start to see a more balanced and consistent play from more guys on a regular basis. Will add, TK and Oso had more options around them last year and drop off from the top two players to #3 was not a big one.
Curious, as we sit today who is the #2 and #3 player on the team? I could not give a firm answer for game in and game out. I do not believe you can have a deep run if you do not know who can be counted on to step up on a very consistent basis.
I think the last two games we've seen a team not playing their best, with their all American PG not at his best, and they've still been able to grind out two games. I see a team capable of winning when they have their C game because they are far more well rounded than in past years. There last two games are games that frankly they probably would have lost last year.
I do think they need Sean to get back to really be a final four threat. Take some pressure off Kam for 10-15 mins per game, one more ball handler that can penetrate off the dribble
Side comment on the non-foul.
Remember we were up by two. If he hits both, overtime...60/40 we win.
It's a whole different set of drama if tied or were up by only 1.
Still it was a collapse. Not epic, but a collapse.
W-MU so that's that
Quote from: Goose on December 21, 2024, 03:28:18 PMBM1090
They definitely could be top two in BE if no one steps up but I think that is a big task. IMO,Kam is the best player on the team and he does not really make the guys around him better. TK and Oso made everyone better and that is why the offense often looked beautiful.
This team is a work in progress to me. A lot to like, some things not to like and still question marks. By no stretch am I down on the team, just want to see more before getting too excited.
Goose I definitely don't mean this as a slight, because you've said you haven't watched as much muball early in the season due to family obligations, and who can blame you, but this sounds a lot like you've started tuning in more in the last 4-5 games.
That stretch has easily been the toughest of the season- roadies at ISU, Dayton, X and a home game v UW and Butler.
Before that stretch Kam Jones was easily a top 2/3 offensive player in the country and super efficient, and was great at getting his teammates involved.
Since early December he's had some tougher sledding- easy to happen when the competition ramps up and the defenses get much better.
He's been 6/21, 12/21, 6/13, 11/24, 8/20 in the last 5. Much less efficient at the rim and from the outside offensively, but still averaging 6APG and 5RPG in that stretch.
The eye test shows that he's found some challenges- scoring at the bucket isn't as easy of late, missing shots he usually makes, and his outside shot hasn't been falling.
He's been feasting and padding stats a bit late and stuffing the box score, so the narrative is still the same, but he and everyone else that's watched will tell you he's had a bit of a negative stretch.
That will change though, and he will still be a first team All American, because he's that good.
He definitely makes his teammates better.
It's not as pretty or pure as what TyKo and Oso did, it's quite a bit different, but it's still effective.
Goose also mentioned a true 1B being needed by this team-
This years team isn't really that, imo.
The true #2 is Stevie, because his overall presence and defensive abilities, his pure grit and passion and ability to embody the Shaka and Marquette way is invaluable. He's the true #2 because he's the #1 defensively. Stevie has been WAY better offensively this year, his drives and finishes look great, and he needs to push that more, but offensive aggressiveness isn't in his DNA like the defensive aggressiveness.
David Joplin is easily the true #2 offensively, that's why I think he's the X factor for the season. This team will be great defensively, but will need Jop and Kam cooking on many nights, or against great teams, to win the game. Sure the defense can mask offensive inefficiencies, and as I've said it's much easier to win when the opponent scores in the 60s or low 70s, but Jop is the offensive 1B.
Chase is the two way player that will always play great defensively but pick his spots offensively.
Benny is fine, he's playing better and better and can be a big difference maker here and there but he's no 1B. Zaide, Owens, Parham, Tre, and SJ22 if he plays will be role players that will shine one night and disappear the next, with Zaide being a great defensive stopper as needed and Owens and Parham being a key to some wins with their offensive abilities.
Maybe one of the above group becomes more of a #3 option offensively (Owens or Parham?) but I'd say it's a long shot.
Those guys will win some games like Novak won some games off the bench for the FF team.
Overall this team is based on its defensive identity and ability to wreak havok defensively, get steals and create turnovers and go on huge runs off them. Deflection champions and defensive warriors. That is going to be their identity, with a true alpha stud All American in Kam and a microwave offensive cat in Jop.
The others will rotate and take turns, but Stevie and Chase will always be there on the defensive end, if they can all manage to stay on the court and avoid injury and foul
Someday, some of you will appreciate how much fun it is to be a Marquette fan right now
Gave up 37 points in 30 minutes. 44 in 32.5. Then foul trouble happened and X got hot at home. Good team.
Bad defensive team, my chico.
There were some spectacular takes over the last couple of days. I enjoyed them all. So much wrong. But so fun to read.
The bench looked better.
Pollsters and tournament committees do not GAF about style points as long as the words 'conference road win' appear over and over again.
So, to sum up, MU survived foul trouble to Stevie and Chase to hang on for a conference road win. You have earned your time off, men.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 21, 2024, 04:19:15 PMSomeday, some of you will appreciate how much fun it is to be a Marquette fan right now
Will never happen
Quote from: 79Warrior on December 21, 2024, 03:52:25 PMI am with you on it your assessment. This season could go either way. Sure wish we had Sean Jones back. He could be that 6th man this team needs. Afraid we will not see him until next season at this point.
Where are you getting that Sean will be out a full calendar year from right now?
Chase Ross with a heel turn.
Quote from: Newsdreams on December 21, 2024, 04:31:08 PMWill never happen
I know. Don't enjoy the now, dread the future.
Quote from: Goose on December 21, 2024, 03:58:33 PMBrew
Then the supporting cast is not as good I had hoped they would be. My point is simply that they have to work extremely hard to get open looks, imo. At this point, a tremendous amount of production is on Kam's shoulders and hoping someone steps up.
As I said, I am not down on the team at all. Hoping that we start to see a more balanced and consistent play from more guys on a regular basis. Will add, TK and Oso had more options around them last year and drop off from the top two players to #3 was not a big one.
Curious, as we sit today who is the #2 and #3 player on the team? I could not give a firm answer for game in and game out. I do not believe you can have a deep run if you do not know who can be counted on to step up on a very consistent basis.
For me this team starts with defense. Chase and Stevie are tremendous defenders. Jop & Gold are both very solid on the defensive end. Offensively, it could be Chase, Jop, or Stevie, but we've generally had guys step up.
Stevie has been at 9+ points in 10/13 games and over 100 ORtg in 11/13. Chase has been at 8+ in 9/13 and over 100 in 10/13. Our other guards are reliable deputies. Ben has been 9+ in 9/13 and over 100 in 10/13.
We might not have a second consistently explosive scoring option, but our supplementary scorers have been consistently solid.
Quote from: BM1090 on December 21, 2024, 04:11:19 PMI think the last two games we've seen a team not playing their best, with their all American PG not at his best, and they've still been able to grind out two games. I see a team capable of winning when they have their C game because they are far more well rounded than in past years. There last two games are games that frankly they probably would have lost last year.
I do think they need Sean to get back to really be a final four threat. Take some pressure off Kam for 10-15 mins per game, one more ball handler that can penetrate off the dribble
More likely that Tre contributes to MUBB success this year than a "we need Sean to make a FF run" narrative
Quote from: Goose on December 21, 2024, 03:28:18 PMBM1090
They definitely could be top two in BE if no one steps up but I think that is a big task. IMO,Kam is the best player on the team and he does not really make the guys around him better. TK and Oso made everyone better and that is why the offense often looked beautiful.
This team is a work in progress to me. A lot to like, some things not to like and still question marks. By no stretch am I down on the team, just want to see more before getting too excited.
Gloomy goose is back.
Point
Far from gloomy and think this team will be a four seed or higher. Just want to see more before I a looking for final four tickets. Last year I thought they had legit chance to go to FF and they might this year.
Simply hoping to see 2-3 guys emerge as consistent go to guys on offense. Gloomy Goose thinks that my guy Ben is on the verge of being a consistent 10-12+ guy.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 21, 2024, 04:19:15 PMSomeday, some of you will appreciate how much fun it is to be a Marquette fan right now
Everyone appreciates it
I don't think we need a consistent number 2. We have 3 players who can fit that role and depending on the day or matchup, one of them usually does.
Kam is in a mini slump for two reasons. One is just better overall competition and two, teams working Kam hard and entire teams are trying to take away his left. He still gets there, but those 2-3 footers, are now 3-5 footers. He needs to adjust. It seems like he started to adjust in the second half today. Also, I think he needs to start hitting from the outside more consistently to open up his drives some more.
I think this is a very good team but not quite the ceiling we had last year. We never reached last year's ceiling due to injuries. Hoping to push through the ceiling this year.
Quote from: We R Final Four on December 21, 2024, 04:42:48 PMMore likely that Tre contributes to MUBB success this year than a "we need Sean to make a FF run" narrative
Why? Unless you believe or know Sean won't be back this year. This team is missing a guy who can force rotations and take advantage. Tre isn't going to be that guy this year.
No idea if Sean gets back healthy, but if he does he immediately offers something we don't have.
Quote from: Big Papi on December 21, 2024, 05:39:57 PMI don't think we need a consistent number 2. We have 3 players who can fit that role and depending on the day or matchup, one of them usually does.
Kam is in a mini slump for two reasons. One is just better overall competition and two, teams working Kam hard and entire teams are trying to take away his left. He still gets there, but those 2-3 footers, are now 3-5 footers. He needs to adjust. It seems like he started to adjust in the second half today. Also, I think he needs to start hitting from the outside more consistently to open up his drives some more.
I think this is a very good team but not quite the ceiling we had last year. We never reached last year's ceiling due to injuries. Hoping to push through the ceiling this year.
I think the ceiling is higher this year. Last year we were never going to be able to win a title rebounding as poorly as we did. This team can win in more ways. Oso and TK were too exploitable defensively in certain matchups.
Last year's team was more fun. This one is better, IMO.
https://www.jsonline.com/videos/sports/college/marquette/2024/12/21/marquettes-shaka-smart-gives-kam-jones-a-b-minus-for-game-at-xavier/77136166007/
Shaka grades Kam a B minus today. Take the road win and be happy.
Quote from: BM1090 on December 21, 2024, 05:40:14 PMWhy? Unless you believe or know Sean won't be back this year. This team is missing a guy who can force rotations and take advantage. Tre isn't going to be that guy this year.
No idea if Sean gets back healthy, but if he does he IMMEDIATELY offers something we don't have.
No. You are viewing what Sean was prior to the injury through a sepia tinted lens. Post injury, it is completely unfair and unrealistic to assume Sean will be the best version of himself. It is a process and it will take time. If he comes back soon, hopefully he will be comfortable a month later.
Quote from: BM1090 on December 21, 2024, 05:43:24 PMI think the ceiling is higher this year. Last year we were never going to be able to win a title rebounding as poorly as we did. This team can win in more ways. Oso and TK were too exploitable defensively in certain matchups.
Last year's team was more fun. This one is better, IMO.
Reason why I though last season had a higher ceiling was a healthy Kolek playing at a high level and Oso providing the defense, presence and high basketball IQ. I thought we had the guns to win it all with very few weaknesses. Didn't happen. Chase plays hurt most of the year and Sean's season ends early. Kolek didn't quite play Kolek like and then he got hurt.
This year's team I worry about our size and the point guard position if Kam/Stevie get into foul trouble. More weaknesses heading into the year. Time will tell but heading into both seasons, last year's team was better.
Sounds like Shaka and the staff feel Sean is ready to play but Sean is not mentally there. If he comes back, it won't be Sean at 100%. Definitely not mentally and probably not physically as well. All I can hope for is Sean comes back and plays 5-10 minutes to provide some starters to catch there breathe and offer a change of pace of attack. Anything above that would be awesome but not realistic.
Quote from: tower912 on December 21, 2024, 05:48:40 PMNo. You are viewing what Sean was prior to the injury through a sepia tinted lens. Post injury, it is completely unfair and unrealistic to assume Sean will be the best version of himself. It is a process and it will take time. If he comes back soon, hopefully he will be comfortable a month later.
I'm not assuming anything. Even if he's not his best self, allowing Kam to play 10 minutes off the ball and having the ability to get by defenders on the bounce would be impactful for this team.
If he comes back, I wouldn't expect him to be his best self. But he could still improve the team.
Quote from: Big Papi on December 21, 2024, 05:50:07 PMReason why I though last season had a higher ceiling was a healthy Kolek playing at a high level and Oso providing the defense, presence and high basketball IQ. I thought we had the guns to win it all with very few weaknesses. Didn't happen. Chase plays hurt most of the year and Sean's season ends early. Kolek didn't quite play Kolek like and then he got hurt.
This year's team I worry about our size and the point guard position if Kam/Stevie get into foul trouble. More weaknesses heading into the year. Time will tell but heading into both seasons, last year's team was better.
I disagree, but this is a very reasonable take. Time will tell.
Quote from: tower912 on December 21, 2024, 05:48:40 PMNo. You are viewing what Sean was prior to the injury through a sepia tinted lens. Post injury, it is completely unfair and unrealistic to assume Sean will be the best version of himself. It is a process and it will take time. If he comes back soon, hopefully he will be comfortable a month later.
On this past Thursday's radio show, Shaka basically flat out said Sean is not mentally ready to play yet. Sure sounds like the ball is in Sean's court and it's his decision to continue sitting. So, I agree that he is going to have a sizable ramp up period and expectations should be tempered if he does decide to return this year. Just my opinion, but Sean is too big of an asset to the program to take the chance that he'll "hopefully be comfortable" in February. Would be a shame to burn a year of eligibility if it turns out he's not comfortable, but it's his life and his decision.
Quote from: Goose on December 21, 2024, 05:12:10 PMPoint
Far from gloomy and think this team will be a four seed or higher. Just want to see more before I a looking for final four tickets. Last year I thought they had legit chance to go to FF and they might this year.
Simply hoping to see 2-3 guys emerge as consistent go to guys on offense. Gloomy Goose thinks that my guy Ben is on the verge of being a consistent 10-12+ guy.
Backing away from the "Kam doesn't make his teammates better" take pretty quick.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 21, 2024, 06:00:25 PMBacking away from the "Kam doesn't make his teammates better" take pretty quick.
To be fair, backing off it when others adamantly disagreed is far better than doubling down.
Quote from: BM1090 on December 21, 2024, 05:58:01 PMI'm not assuming anything. Even if he's not his best self, allowing Kam to play 10 minutes off the ball and having the ability to get by defenders on the bounce would be impactful for this team.
If he comes back, I wouldn't expect him to be his best self. But he could still improve the team.
Sean is not going to allow Kam to play 10 minutes off the ball. At best, he will give Kam 3-5 minutes rest for the foreseeable future. If he comes back this season.
Kolek was in a pouty funk and a slump playing off the ball last season. 1-13 in the game Sean got hurt. I am not convinced Kam wants to play off the ball right now.
At this point, the better hope is that Tre continues to improve. Expecting Sean to do anything significant doesn't seem to be realistic.
Quote from: tower912 on December 21, 2024, 06:05:18 PMSean is not going to allow Kam to play 10 minutes off the ball. At best, he will give Kam 3-5 minutes rest for the foreseeable future. If he comes back this season.
Kolek was in a pouty funk and a slump playing off the ball last season. 1-13 in the game Sean got hurt. I am not convinced Kam wants to play off the ball right now.
You might be right, and ten minutes is an exaggeration. But being able to run Kam off some screens to free him up for a look at a 3 would open up some things for him and other guys.
I agree with that. And I would think we can get that with Chase, Stevie, Tre, or even Ben with the ball on top.
Good job, JAM.
I attempted the same when Tower was MIA a year ago (or two), but you have outdone me.
Quote from: DoctorV on December 21, 2024, 04:14:32 PMGoose I definitely don't mean this as a slight, because you've said you haven't watched as much muball early in the season due to family obligations, and who can blame you, but this sounds a lot like you've started tuning in more in the last 4-5 games.
That stretch has easily been the toughest of the season- roadies at ISU, Dayton, X and a home game v UW and Butler.
Before that stretch Kam Jones was easily a top 2/3 offensive player in the country and super efficient, and was great at getting his teammates involved.
Since early December he's had some tougher sledding- easy to happen when the competition ramps up and the defenses get much better.
He's been 6/21, 12/21, 6/13, 11/24, 8/20 in the last 5. Much less efficient at the rim and from the outside offensively, but still averaging 6APG and 5RPG in that stretch.
The eye test shows that he's found some challenges- scoring at the bucket isn't as easy of late, missing shots he usually makes, and his outside shot hasn't been falling.
He's been feasting and padding stats a bit late and stuffing the box score, so the narrative is still the same, but he and everyone else that's watched will tell you he's had a bit of a negative stretch.
That will change though, and he will still be a first team All American, because he's that good.
He definitely makes his teammates better.
It's not as pretty or pure as what TyKo and Oso did, it's quite a bit different, but it's still effective.
Goose also mentioned a true 1B being needed by this team-
This years team isn't really that, imo.
The true #2 is Stevie, because his overall presence and defensive abilities, his pure grit and passion and ability to embody the Shaka and Marquette way is invaluable. He's the true #2 because he's the #1 defensively. Stevie has been WAY better offensively this year, his drives and finishes look great, and he needs to push that more, but offensive aggressiveness isn't in his DNA like the defensive aggressiveness.
David Joplin is easily the true #2 offensively, that's why I think he's the X factor for the season. This team will be great defensively, but will need Jop and Kam cooking on many nights, or against great teams, to win the game. Sure the defense can mask offensive inefficiencies, and as I've said it's much easier to win when the opponent scores in the 60s or low 70s, but Jop is the offensive 1B.
Chase is the two way player that will always play great defensively but pick his spots offensively.
Benny is fine, he's playing better and better and can be a big difference maker here and there but he's no 1B. Zaide, Owens, Parham, Tre, and SJ22 if he plays will be role players that will shine one night and disappear the next, with Zaide being a great defensive stopper as needed and Owens and Parham being a key to some wins with their offensive abilities.
Maybe one of the above group becomes more of a #3 option offensively (Owens or Parham?) but I'd say it's a long shot.
Those guys will win some games like Novak won some games off the bench for the FF team.
Overall this team is based on its defensive identity and ability to wreak havok defensively, get steals and create turnovers and go on huge runs off them. Deflection champions and defensive warriors. That is going to be their identity, with a true alpha stud All American in Kam and a microwave offensive cat in Jop.
The others will rotate and take turns, but Stevie and Chase will always be there on the defensive end, if they can all manage to stay on the court and avoid injury and foul
I was half done typing my reply to Goose but this is my +1. And to Goose: you've been the optimist to my cynic for the past few years...but I think the ceiling is much higher than you're predicting
51 bench minutes in a conference road game. No "issues" with any of those minutes. This team just keeps getting better.
As for the 1b conversation - offensively it seems Shaka has decided it's Jop. His drives were better today... less drives to nowhere, but then X is not that big. More drives to finish and less drives where he stops and pivots and spins and gets lost.
Quote from: WarriorFan on December 21, 2024, 07:14:38 PM51 bench minutes in a conference road game. No "issues" with any of those minutes. This team just keeps getting better.
As for the 1b conversation - offensively it seems Shaka has decided it's Jop. His drives were better today... less drives to nowhere, but then X is not that big. More drives to finish and less drives where he stops and pivots and spins and gets lost.
Appeared that he wasn't driving in too far and left himself room to work. Jop can't finish when he takes that extra step into traffic.
Quote from: tower912 on December 21, 2024, 03:49:38 PMSelf loathing navel gazers who lack perspective on how good MU really is.
Missing the forest for the trees.
So true. #4 Kentucky got blown out on the road today by a very mediocre tOSU team. Purdue lost by 20 on the road. It's tough out there.
There were only 2 lessons from todays game. Unnecessary because we already knew them both.
1. It's hard to win on the Road against good (or even mediocre) teams.
2. It's hard to win when multiple players are in foul trouble.
Until Chase & Stevie had to sit, the game was a blowout. All 5 starters played well. I have no complaints about this team right now. They are really good.
Quote from: Jockey on December 21, 2024, 07:28:09 PMSo true. #4 Kentucky got blown out on the road today by a very mediocre tOSU team. Purdue lost by 20 on the road. It's tough out there.
There were only 2 lessons from todays game. Unnecessary because we already knew them both.
1. It's hard to win on the Road against good (or even mediocre) teams.
2. It's hard to win when multiple players are in foul trouble.
Until Chase & Stevie had to sit, the game was a blowout. All 5 starters played well. I have no complaints about this team right now. They are really good.
All your points about MU being fine are very valid
But this is the issue with sports. Context is lost really easily. Guessing you saw the team on the bottom of the score ticker? Neither of those games were on the road(although Auburn was much more local)
Same way with all the people on social media calling X screwed without watching the 15 min prior where they got all the calls.
Quote from: Jockey on December 21, 2024, 07:28:09 PMSo true. #4 Kentucky got blown out on the road today by a very mediocre tOSU team. Purdue lost by 20 on the road. It's tough out there.
There were only 2 lessons from todays game. Unnecessary because we already knew them both.
1. It's hard to win on the Road against good (or even mediocre) teams.
2. It's hard to win when multiple players are in foul trouble.
Until Chase & Stevie had to sit, the game was a blowout. All 5 starters played well. I have no complaints about this team right now. They are really good.
Agree with much of this - except the "all 5 starters played well" part. Chase played poorly.
Quote from: BM1090 on December 21, 2024, 05:40:14 PMWhy? Unless you believe or know Sean won't be back this year. This team is missing a guy who can force rotations and take advantage. Tre isn't going to be that guy this year.
No idea if Sean gets back healthy, but if he does he immediately offers something we don't have.
To count on Sean to impact games to push us to a FF is a HUGE ask....thats all.
More likely that comes from a player who is actually improving than a hope for a player we haven't seen for a year.
Quote from: We R Final Four on December 21, 2024, 07:58:44 PMTo count on Sean to impact games to push us to a FF is a HUGE ask....thats all.
More likely that comes from a player who is actually improving than a hope for a player we haven't seen for a year.
I definitely get what you're saying, but I think Sean is the only one who can add the dimension the offense needs to improve in the half court. What he can do, nobody else can.
Incremental improvement in shooting by the underclassmen would improve efficiency, but Sean changes the way teams have to guard us for a little bit each game.
Is they too much to ask this year? Maybe.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 21, 2024, 04:19:15 PMSomeday, some of you will appreciate how much fun it is to be a Marquette fan right now
Ha! This.
Listened to the field of 68 tonight. Dauster got picked apart by childress and a little fanta
Yes, the call was def missed imo.
But Dauster went on a rant on F68, how Miller shoulda sacrificed all this salary it was inexcusable all this(of course without mentioning calls that helped X before hand) nonsense. And in his argument he talked about how he doesn't know if chase even made contact lol.
His claim was that since chase caused Conwell to at least "freak out" and change direction its chase fault for him face planting. One of the more insane things I have ever heard and RC buried him for it.
Fluff
I am not backing down one bit on my Kam making teammates better. Only caveat, comparing him to TK and Oso is not fair to him. TK and Oso made things look easy and I was spoiled.
Jake
My comments on high ceiling are based off of past performances against Baylor and Kansas, not how far they can go in NCAA. I literally loved the performances in those two games and do not think that will be matched with this group.
I said over past couple of weeks that the higher floor might take them further in tournament. By no means do I think this team cannot have a great season, just not as entertaining as the past two years.
Quote from: Goose on December 21, 2024, 08:45:37 PMFluff
I am not backing down one bit on my Kam making teammates better.
And to think you once thought of yourself as the arbiter of people "knowing ball."
Quote from: BM1090 on December 21, 2024, 08:02:36 PMI definitely get what you're saying, but I think Sean is the only one who can add the dimension the offense needs to improve in the half court. What he can do, nobody else can.
Incremental improvement in shooting by the underclassmen would improve efficiency, but Sean changes the way teams have to guard us for a little bit each game.
Is they too much to ask this year? Maybe.
I, like you, think he would add a dimension to the offense that would be nice to see especially when Kam is out of the game. It would also be nice to have him handle the ball and relieve some pressure from Kam at times when they are on the floor together, especially against heavy pressure. Tre hasn't shown he can do that and the other guards are not stellar at it either.
Of course we all don't know how he will perform this year when he gets on the court. But if he wants to come back I'd like to find out. Nothing more, nothing less.
He won't hurt the team this year by doing so. Two years from now, if he red shirts, is a long way off. Take advantage of having an all American on your team while you can.
Quote from: Goose on December 21, 2024, 08:51:55 PMJake
My comments on high ceiling are based off of past performances against Baylor and Kansas, not how far they can go in NCAA. I literally loved the performances in those two games and do not think that will be matched with this group.
I said over past couple of weeks that the higher floor might take them further in tournament. By no means do I think this team cannot have a great season, just not as entertaining as the past two years.
Wuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut.
So we need to have individual games like Baylor and Kansas to be final 4?
First off, while the Kansas win was great it didn't even age that well.
Second, Shakas first year we boat raced a top 15 providence team in conference play. Baylor style.
So were they more final 4?
If you wanna be more reserved, go ahead. But all your reasons for it are reaches to say the least.
Also that Baylor win was more of a wake up for the fans that this team had potential. There were many games later in that season(namely the Uconn wins) that showed me way more.
PG
Did you read my post? I said a less entertaining team may go further than the previous two years. They may have to battle harder to do it, but may be better suited to do it.
As Fluff stated, maybe your take on other games makes you a far better judge of ball than I am and perfectly fine with that. The Baylor game was an all time clinic in watching MU basketball and was more than a wake up call to me, but that is my take.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 21, 2024, 04:19:15 PMSomeday, some of you will appreciate how much fun it is to be a Marquette fan right now
As a fan that watched nearly every game of the Wojo era, I am thrilled to be a Marquette fan right now. So much fun! I think this group has a ton of potential. When the question becomes how deep can they go rather than can they even win tonight and will we find a way to get to the tournament, I think that says it all.
Quote from: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on December 21, 2024, 01:42:04 PM9. Chase was invisible today
No, Conwell was invisible today. Chase Ross was the reason why
#FTsNoMatta
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 21, 2024, 10:53:46 PMNo, Conwell was invisible today. Chase Ross was the reason why
True, Chase's defense was elite in the first half. Foul trouble took him completely out of the game in the 2nd half.
Loooong time reader, first time poster.
Fantastic win! Especially when you consider...it was Chase's worst game of the year, maybe Kam's worst half of the season, and on the road in a tough environment vs a solid team. Of course you'd love to see a veteran team close that out easier, but never apologize for road wins in the BEast.
Loved the bench tonight. Played tough D and offensively played with needed "restraint," if that makes sense. Thought we'd get more Lowrey minutes in 2nd half. He can switch everything and has looked more confident on O. Especially when X was on their run. Clearly, Im buying stock in 2025 Zaide!
To Goose's point, MU might be better served when Kam isnt taking 20+ shots in games. But he's such a great shot maker its hard to complain when he does.
Excited for the rest of the season!
I'm pretty concerned about Stevie in all honesty. He was very noticeably hobbled today (moreso than usual). His achilles are clearly bothering him quite a bit to the point where he was running completely flat-footed.
Hopefully this 10 day break is enough to get him in a good spot, though I'd imagine this won't go away. Kid is as tough as they come.
On that final play, is there anyone that is familiar enough with the rules and the interpretations provided to officials that can answer whether or not that should have been called a foul?
We won't know if the no call was because the referees did not know that the ball handler had stepped on Ross's foot, or if they decided that Ross had established a proper guarding position, and that the contact that was initiated by the ball handler was incidental.
Casey Jacobson on FS1 said that it was a good no call because Ross had established his position. But Robbie Plummer on the game telecast said that it was clearly a tripping foul.
When you think about it, it doesn't seem right that a player who is in position and remains stationary (as Ross did) should be called for a foul because a guy with the ball essentially runs into him. I also wonder if it matters if the defender's feet are extended outside of the width of his shoulders.
Everyone here has already said what I would have added. I will say that, that foul gets called 99.9% of the time we just so happen to have the ref behind the play watching so his view was kind of harder so see which caused us to fall into the .01 % of the time that's not called a foul. Simple matter is it doesn't matter if the defender tripped on chases food inadvertently, that's a foul on chase any other time.
Regardless 2nd half adjustments need to get better. We can win at Xavier, seton hall, Georgetown etc like that but if we want the conference it needs to get better.
If that was a foul, then the play on which Chase sprained his ankle a few games ago was also a foul.
In other words, it was not a foul. Stepping on a guys foot is unfortunate, but incidental contact.
Quote from: HowardsWorld on December 22, 2024, 06:58:48 AMEveryone here has already said what I would have added. I will say that, that foul gets called 99.9% of the time we just so happen to have the ref behind the play watching so his view was kind of harder so see which caused us to fall into the .01 % of the time that's not called a foul. Simple matter is it doesn't matter if the defender tripped on chases food inadvertently, that's a foul on chase any other time.
Regardless 2nd half adjustments need to get better. We can win at Xavier, seton hall, Georgetown etc like that but if we want the conference it needs to get better.
The second half adjustments led to a 15 point lead. Stevie and Chase on the bench with foul trouble led to a comeback.
Quote from: HowardsWorld on December 22, 2024, 06:58:48 AMEveryone here has already said what I would have added. I will say that, that foul gets called 99.9% of the time we just so happen to have the ref behind the play watching so his view was kind of harder so see which caused us to fall into the .01 % of the time that's not called a foul. Simple matter is it doesn't matter if the defender tripped on chases food inadvertently, that's a foul on chase any other time.
Regardless 2nd half adjustments need to get better. We can win at Xavier, seton hall, Georgetown etc like that but if we want the conference it needs to get better.
*.1
I think the first thing we have to acknowledge is the officials didn't have a good view on the final play.
One ref was ahead of the play; was he watching the ball or was he watching off the ball in case Xavier tried a long pass?
One ref was trailing; he was probably too far away to have a good look.
One ref was a mid court but on the far side with an obstructed view.
Chase didn't raise his leg in the air, which would have made a tripping foul more obvious.
So the officials have to make a split second decision without a great view of the play. And without the benefit of slow mo replay.
Did the player slip? Was Chase in legal guarding position? Was it incidental contact?
The truth is, none of know what the refs saw or what they were thinking in their ruling. But it's not like Chase tackled the guy or gave him a bear hug. It's one of those bang bang plays that requires a split second decision. Sometimes those calls go in your favor, and sometimes they don't.
MessWithAll
I have little problem with Kam's number of shots because he creates a lot of great looks. My biggest takeaway is not that Kam cannot pass to open guys, but I am not seeing other guys doing that on a regular basis. The last two years it seemed that every guy was in on finding the open guy and this year it is falling completely on Kam.
I guess that is what I mean about not making other guys better. I would love to see more ball movement and less dribbling, with the exception of Kam.
You had to watch multiple angles to pick up the contact plus the dribbler changes his direction/skips when chase stunts. I'd be mad if I were an X fan but it all happened so quick.
Reality is it was one of many questionable calls during the game. My guess is that Xavier benefited from more favorable calls than they lost.
Quote from: Goose on December 22, 2024, 09:19:14 AMMessWithAll
I have little problem with Kam's number of shots because he creates a lot of great looks. My biggest takeaway is not that Kam cannot pass to open guys, but I am not seeing other guys doing that on a regular basis. The last two years it seemed that every guy was in on finding the open guy and this year it is falling completely on Kam.
I guess that is what I mean about not making other guys better. I would love to see more ball movement and less dribbling, with the exception of Kam.
I don't know how this results in a conclusion that Kam doesn't make the players around him better.
Personally I think Kam right now is the only player on our team that can cause multiple defenders to switch or help. So the the ball moves better with him as he is creating those opportunities.
Our ceiling is probably dictated by one or more players stepping up to be able to better initiate the offense.
nm
Xavier 80.0% FT%
#muMbb 63.6% FT%
How on erf did we win?!
Frenns
I agree that Kam is the best option and draws the most attention. I guess I am hoping to see the other guys make better decisions with the ball. I think Kam is 95%+ in making smart decisions with the ball, either shooting or passing. Again, I think I was spoiled last year watching an extra pass being made on a regular basis.
Quote from: Jay Bee on December 22, 2024, 09:51:34 AMXavier 80.0% FT%
#muMbb 63.6% FT%
How on erf did we win?!
Any new PB injuries?
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 21, 2024, 10:53:46 PMNo, Conwell was invisible today. Chase Ross was the reason why
Chase only played 17 mins
Quote from: HowardsWorld on December 22, 2024, 06:58:48 AMEveryone here has already said what I would have added. I will say that, that foul gets called 99.9% of the time we just so happen to have the ref behind the play watching so his view was kind of harder so see which caused us to fall into the .01 % of the time that's not called a foul. Simple matter is it doesn't matter if the defender tripped on chases food inadvertently, that's a foul on chase any other time.
Regardless 2nd half adjustments need to get better. We can win at Xavier, seton hall, Georgetown etc like that but if we want the conference it needs to get better.
Second half adjustments were just fine. They need to learn how to close games better.
Quote from: BM1090 on December 22, 2024, 11:28:54 AMSecond half adjustments were just fine. They need to learn how to close games better.
MU is not a team that runs well on cruise control, especially when key players are on the bench.
Quote from: 1318WWells on December 22, 2024, 11:10:17 AMChase only played 17 mins
I'm aware. And he was guarding Conwell all 17 minutes and it was beautiful