Poll
Question:
What is Your Grade on the Non-Con performance by Marquette
Option 1: A
votes: 66
Option 2: B
votes: 115
Option 3: C
votes: 8
Option 4: D
votes: 1
Option 5: F
votes: 4
What grade do you give Marquette's non-conference performance?
A-/B+.
Only two losses being on the road against legit high major competition? I'll give that an A. A- if we need to get specific.
Easy A. I guarantee he one vote for "F" was Willard.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on December 14, 2024, 09:07:52 PMEasy A. I guarantee he one vote for "F" was Willard.
No, I voted F. Can't lose 2 games before conference play on the road. Shows me a mentally weak team
Quote from: DJO's Jaw on December 14, 2024, 09:06:56 PMOnly two losses being on the road against legit high major competition? I'll give that an A. A- if we need to get specific.
Dayton could be #1 in the country........but not a high major....I learned that on scoop.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 14, 2024, 09:09:30 PMNo, I voted F. Can't lose 2 games before conference play on the road. Shows me a mentally weak team
My mistake. ;D
A.
Great non-con. It's also great for our fans to see so many high level games. Crean and Buzz would have a schedule littered with the little sisters of the poor x9.
Hard to say anything other than A.
Wish they were a bit healthier, as Stevie and Chase limp like they struggle to stay upright, but the results are an A.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on December 14, 2024, 09:07:52 PMEasy A. I guarantee he one vote for "F" was Willard.
If 0-2 vs ISU and DAY is an easy A........what would your grade be if we went 2-0?!?
Extra credit?
A++
Solid A at halftime, dropped to an A-.
B+
Didn't like the way they lost tonight. Out-worked. Out-hustled.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 14, 2024, 09:09:30 PMNo, I voted F. Can't lose 2 games before conference play on the road. Shows me a mentally weak team
What are you, duanewade?
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 14, 2024, 09:13:08 PMB+
Didn't like the way they lost tonight. Out-worked. Out-hustled.
Dayton is 20th in the nation in defensive rebounding %, but average on the offensive glass. Marquette is also average on the defensive glass (both teams hover around 30%). Dayton shouldn't have dominated that, so effort was the difference.
Marquette changed their grading system to the +/- system later into my college career, but if it were the original system, I'd give Marquette an AB.
Quote from: We R Final Four on December 14, 2024, 09:12:32 PMIf 0-2 vs ISU and DAY is an easy A........what would your grade be if we went 2-0?!?
Extra credit?
A++
I guess I view those games as the equivalent of AP classes?
If we went 5-1 with a loss to UW.....scoopers would give a B.
B. Would have been an A with a win tonight.
The nature of the two road losses, and the fact they nearly pissed away an 8 point lead in 68 seconds at Maryland, have me concerned about their mentality away from Fiserv. They seem easily rattled at times when the crowd is really firing.
AB
UConn has won back to back national titles, meanwhile this board gives out A's for losing two out of three road games.::) We even tried to give away the Maryland game in the last minute, but barely salvaged the win.
Not too hard to see why UConn has won six national championships and we've languished at one title and haven't been close since.
I wish I could Xmas shop for this group as even the cheap, ugly sweaters I buy at the Salvation Army Resale Shop would be greeted as Christian Dior cashmere cardigans in the mind's of this group.🤷�♂️
Quote from: We R Final Four on December 14, 2024, 09:09:58 PMDayton could be #1 in the country........but not a high major....I learned that on scoop.
Ah crap, you're right. B+ then
D
My initial thought was B, but that was wrong.
Tonight should've never happened. After Green Bay, I was told we wouldn't schedule a road game that didn't get us a high major in return. This was already a low value game because it likely won't move any STH packages next year.
Winning at home is expected. Go 2-1 on the road, we're talking B/C. But 2 losses, including one that we never should've played, that's subpar.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2024, 10:00:05 PMD
My initial thought was B, but that was wrong.
Tonight should've never happened. After Green Bay, I was told we wouldn't schedule a road game that didn't get us a high major in return. This was already a low value game because it likely won't move any STH packages next year.
Winning at home is expected. Go 2-1 on the road, we're talking B/C. But 2 losses, including one that we never should've played, that's subpar.
Now THIS is the Scoop equivalent of a Dr. Wolfe Constitutional Law grade scale. And I appreciate it.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2024, 10:00:05 PMD
My initial thought was B, but that was wrong.
Tonight should've never happened. After Green Bay, I was told we wouldn't schedule a road game that didn't get us a high major in return. This was already a low value game because it likely won't move any STH packages next year.
Winning at home is expected. Go 2-1 on the road, we're talking B/C. But 2 losses, including one that we never should've played, that's subpar.
Oh god. This again? Similar to last year, we aren't the best team in the country. We were never going undefeated. We almost certainly aren't winning a national title. Anything lower than a B+ grade for this non conference is nuts.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2024, 10:00:05 PMD
My initial thought was B, but that was wrong.
Tonight should've never happened. After Green Bay, I was told we wouldn't schedule a road game that didn't get us a high major in return. This was already a low value game because it likely won't move any STH packages next year.
Winning at home is expected. Go 2-1 on the road, we're talking B/C. But 2 losses, including one that we never should've played, that's subpar.
I think that's a little harsh. The Georgia game was the horrible game to schedule though, not Dayton. We won so it was forgotten but what the hell were they thinking with that. I didn't mind this Dayton home and home. Dayton is a much better program than many high majors. Some who are afraid to play us (ie Notre Dame).
Quote from: wadesworld on December 14, 2024, 10:07:32 PMOh god. This again? Similar to last year, we aren't the best team in the country. We were never going undefeated. We almost certainly aren't winning a national title. Anything lower than a B+ grade for this non conference is nuts.
Why is that? Maryland, Dayton, Georgia, Purdue, Wisconsin, those are all games that considering the location we were supposed to win. We did nothing to overachieve, so I'm not sure how you get to a B, much less B+.
An average grade is a C. Going 10-1 against this schedule would merit a C. But 9-2 with a required return game that never should be played other than as a buy game? That's below average.
But maybe I just had higher standards coming in.
Home and homes should be for power conference opponents only, outside of Gonzaga. The downside to doing this with Dayton far outweighs any upside. There's a reason no HM schools do this with them.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2024, 10:14:46 PMWhy is that? Maryland, Dayton, Georgia, Purdue, Wisconsin, those are all games that considering the location we were supposed to win. We did nothing to overachieve, so I'm not sure how you get to a B, much less B+.
An average grade is a C. Going 10-1 against this schedule would merit a C. But 9-2 with a required return game that never should be played other than as a buy game? That's below average.
But maybe I just had higher standards coming in.
For one I would've expected 3 losses in the nonconfernece and we finished with two.
For two that's a ridiculous way to grade. Kansas was the top ranked team in the country in the preseason. If they had gone undefeated in a non-conference schedule that included UNC, Michigan State, Duke, at Creighton, at Mizzou, and vs. NC State they'd get a C? That's an A.
Even if Marquette was favored in every non conference game individually (which they weren't), that doesn't mean they were expected to go 11-0 in non-conference games.
We've moved up in every computer and human poll out there from the start of the season to now.
Don't be silly.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 14, 2024, 10:17:35 PMHome and homes should be for power conference opponents only, outside of Gonzaga. The downside to doing this with Dayton far outweighs any upside. There's a reason no HM schools do this with them.
It's a Q1 road game. Who cares?
Quote from: CountryRoads on December 14, 2024, 10:09:09 PMI think that's a little harsh. The Georgia game was the horrible game to schedule though, not Dayton. We won so it was forgotten but what the hell were they thinking with that. I didn't mind this Dayton home and home. Dayton is a much better program than many high majors. Some who are afraid to play us (ie Notre Dame).
Notre Dame is afraid, but they would sell season tickets and mini plans. Dayton next year will bring about as much interest as Northern Illinois, barring a massive roster overhaul.
A program like ours does not schedule a home and home with a program like that. If they want to be a buy game, that's fine, but not giving up a home game for.
EDIT: I agree that Georgia shouldn't have been scheduled. Though for the time we spent away from home for UGA & Dayton, might as well have participated in a 2-game MTE.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2024, 10:14:46 PMWhy is that? Maryland, Dayton, Georgia, Purdue, Wisconsin, those are all games that considering the location we were supposed to win. We did nothing to overachieve, so I'm not sure how you get to a B, much less B+.
An average grade is a C. Going 10-1 against this schedule would merit a C. But 9-2 with a required return game that never should be played other than as a buy game? That's below average.
But maybe I just had higher standards coming in.
I'm going to borrow your logic for a sec. An average grade is a C, so a C makes sense if we simply win all the games we're favored in and lose the ones we're not. We accomplished the former, and also "overachieved" by winning at Maryland as underdogs. Now we did lose two true road games (neither of which we were favored in), but I think you'd be remiss to treat all road environments as the same. There's obviously a very distinct difference between playing at DePaul and playing at Kansas.
Our two non-con losses both took place in infamously difficult arenas. Iowa State hasn't lost at home this season nor last, and Dayton has also won 23 consecutive games at home.
I personally appreciate your opinions and analyses perhaps more than anyone else on this board, but I gotta say, I have to disagree with your take on this one.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 14, 2024, 09:18:04 PMB. Would have been an A with a win tonight.
The nature of the two road losses, and the fact they nearly pissed away an 8 point lead in 68 seconds at Maryland, have me concerned about their mentality away from Fiserv. They seem easily rattled at times when the crowd is really firing.
Agreed, but they've started out that way the last two years and fixed it each year. I'd expect the same this year.
I voted B, but closer to a C than an A.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2024, 10:00:05 PMD
My initial thought was B, but that was wrong.
Tonight should've never happened. After Green Bay, I was told we wouldn't schedule a road game that didn't get us a high major in return. This was already a low value game because it likely won't move any STH packages next year.
Winning at home is expected. Go 2-1 on the road, we're talking B/C. But 2 losses, including one that we never should've played, that's subpar.
I read a few sentences into this and was convinced that you were pulling a Rico.
I was surprised to see you weren't.
You're a metrics guy so let's talk data.
Marquette has improved from its preseason metrics during this non-con season.
It's also been inside the top 10 in the AP and well on the national radar.
It has several quality wins that will make a difference on March 16th.
You complain about scheduling Dayton, but had Marquette not fallen apart in the 2H it could've gotten a huge win that would have put them in a good position for a 1 seed.
The loss doesn't help the metrics, but it isn't a massive blow.
Additionally, there is something to be said about Shaka not losing sight of his roots, and not forgetting the type of thing that got him here. Marquette is positioning itself amongst the elites, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't give teams like Dayton a chance. 24 consecutive home wins is an impressive feat, maybe Shaka thought he had a good opportunity of ending that? Or maybe he felt like Anthony Grant and his program earned the opportunity?
Either way, it's hard to see this non-con slate being a near failure, especially after losing TyKo and Oso
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2024, 10:14:46 PMWhy is that? Maryland, Dayton, Georgia, Purdue, Wisconsin, those are all games that considering the location we were supposed to win. We did nothing to overachieve, so I'm not sure how you get to a B, much less B+.
An average grade is a C. Going 10-1 against this schedule would merit a C. But 9-2 with a required return game that never should be played other than as a buy game? That's below average.
But maybe I just had higher standards coming in.
Or maybe you don't understand math and probabilities. First, we were slight underdogs vs Dayton. We had (give or take) a 65% chance to beat Purdue, Wisconsin, Georgia and Maryland - which means we had an 17.8% chance to beat all 4. When you accomplish something against 6-1 odds that is not a C. If it were a very small group of Scoopers would have made it through MU.
Solid B. Don't think Wisconsin and Purdue will age that well.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2024, 11:14:12 PMOr maybe you don't understand math and probabilities. First, we were slight underdogs vs Dayton. We had (give or take) a 65% chance to beat Purdue, Wisconsin, Georgia and Maryland - which means we had an 17.8% chance to beat all 4. When you accomplish something against 6-1 odds that is not a C. If it were a very small group of Scoopers would have made it through MU.
We were favored in all of them, Dayton included. My expectation at home is to win. Any home loss is underachieving, so I pencilled both Purdue and Wisconsin as wins. And while I acknowledge there were tough games on the slate, my prediction at this point was 10-1. I don't grade on someone else's curve, I grade on mine.
Quote from: DoctorV on December 14, 2024, 11:13:33 PMYou're a metrics guy so let's talk data.
Marquette has improved from its preseason metrics during this non-con season.
It's also been inside the top 10 in the AP and well on the national radar.
It has several quality wins that will make a difference on March 16th.
Or we were underrated in the preseason, and still haven't played to our potential
Quote from: DoctorV on December 14, 2024, 11:13:33 PMYou complain about scheduling Dayton, but had Marquette not fallen apart in the 2H it could've gotten a huge win that would have put them in a good position for a 1 seed.
The loss doesn't help the metrics, but it isn't a massive blow.
After losing in Green Bay, Marquette decided not to give up home games for non-HM return games. I'm not complaining about the loss, but rather that this game (and Georgia, though for different reasons) never should've been scheduled.
The "big" home non-con games are there not just to build a resume but to promote the program nationally and to STHs & fans. Dayton won't do that. Better to take a buy game and schedule a H/H with a program that's more of a peer next year. ND, Purdue, Bucky, Texas, those move the dial. Dayton is not that.
Quote from: DoctorV on December 14, 2024, 11:13:33 PMAdditionally, there is something to be said about Shaka not losing sight of his roots, and not forgetting the type of thing that got him here. Marquette is positioning itself amongst the elites, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't give teams like Dayton a chance. 24 consecutive home wins is an impressive feat, maybe Shaka thought he had a good opportunity of ending that? Or maybe he felt like Anthony Grant and his program earned the opportunity?
Then someone should've told Shaka that we don't do that. If they wanted to come as a but game, like George Mason, Buffalo, Fresno State, Vermont, and other decent mid-majors have, then fine. But a program of their ilk should not be a home and home candidate.
Quote from: DoctorV on December 14, 2024, 11:13:33 PMEither way, it's hard to see this non-con slate being a near failure, especially after losing TyKo and Oso
Two years ago when Justin & Morsell left, people had similar falloff expectations because of what we lost. I focused on what returned and expected us to be better. I felt much the same this year. Maybe just different expectations.
Quote from: duanewade on December 14, 2024, 09:52:11 PMUConn has won back to back national titles, meanwhile this board gives out A's for losing two out of three road games.::) We even tried to give away the Maryland game in the last minute, but barely salvaged the win.
Not too hard to see why UConn has won six national championships and we've languished at one title and haven't been close since.
I wish I could Xmas shop for this group as even the cheap, ugly sweaters I buy at the Salvation Army Resale Shop would be greeted as Christian Dior cashmere cardigans in the mind's of this group.🤷�♂️
🤡
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2024, 10:00:05 PMD
My initial thought was B, but that was wrong.
Tonight should've never happened. After Green Bay, I was told we wouldn't schedule a road game that didn't get us a high major in return. This was already a low value game because it likely won't move any STH packages next year.
Winning at home is expected. Go 2-1 on the road, we're talking B/C. But 2 losses, including one that we never should've played, that's subpar.
This is actually a serious post?
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2024, 11:31:36 PMThe "big" home non-con games are there not just to build a resume but to promote the program nationally and to STHs & fans. Dayton won't do that. Better to take a buy game and schedule a H/H with a program that's more of a peer next year. ND, Purdue, Bucky, Texas, those move the dial. Dayton is not that.
MU has home and homes with Purdue, Maryland and Wisconsin. You may know off the top of your head, but who in the country even comes close to that? Sorry, but season ticket holders are pretty spoiled to be expecting anything more than that in the non-conference. Replace Dayton with Arkansas Pine Bluff as a buy game and that's still miles better than what the schedule used to be. Having 4 quality home and homes going on concurrently seems pretty insane to me. Even if you don't like 1 of them, 3 still probably tops almost every program in the country.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2024, 10:14:46 PMWhy is that? Maryland, Dayton, Georgia, Purdue, Wisconsin, those are all games that considering the location we were supposed to win. We did nothing to overachieve, so I'm not sure how you get to a B, much less B+.
An average grade is a C. Going 10-1 against this schedule would merit a C. But 9-2 with a required return game that never should be played other than as a buy game? That's below average.
But maybe I just had higher standards coming in.
We were underdogs in two of those five games. We won four of them.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2024, 11:31:36 PMWe were favored in all of them, Dayton included. My expectation at home is to win. Any home loss is underachieving, so I pencilled both Purdue and Wisconsin as wins. And while I acknowledge there were tough games on the slate, my prediction at this point was 10-1. I don't grade on someone else's curve, I grade on mine.
Are you using your own odds too? What you're saying is objectively false since Maryland and Dayton were both favored according to the point spreads.
And you said it yourself — what you're talking about isn't even related to the loss or purpose of this thread. You're just frustrated about Dayton being a home-and-home (to a bizarrely extreme extent, for some reason).
Clearly you misread the title. It was asking about your grade for Marquette's non-con performance, not the non-con scheduling. I recommend posting a new discussion thread if it bothers you that badly, rather than hijacking this one with an irrelevant diatribe.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on December 14, 2024, 11:45:57 PMThis is actually a serious post?
He is still pissed at no hot dogs at the scrimmage.
You're a f uckin troll moron
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2024, 11:31:36 PMWe were favored in all of them, Dayton included. My expectation at home is to win. Any home loss is underachieving, so I pencilled both Purdue and Wisconsin as wins. And while I acknowledge there were tough games on the slate, my prediction at this point was 10-1. I don't grade on someone else's curve, I grade on mine.
Dayton was a 1.5 point favorite where I bet but that's not really the issue. The issue is you evidently don't understand (or don't believe in) laws of probability (math and science) For example, if a team has a 70% chance to win each of their next 10 games your expectations might be that anything less than 10-0 is an underachievement. But your expectations would be factually wrong/unfair. The laws of probability say that 10-0 will happen less than 3 times out of 100. You're free to have whatever expectations you want, I guess but when they are set so high that the chances they'll occur are a high improbability statistically they're not very realistic.
I agree that Dayton isn't going to sell tickets, but the margin of them vs. someone like UCLA or Maryland is pretty small to the ticket office.
8th best WAB in the country right now. It's an A for me.
I look at this series this way... If there wasn't a history with them there's no way in hell it would have been scheduled. I'm with Brew on this one... this year it doesn't hurt all that much, but they're going to suck next year when their average age drops from 27 to 19.
Marquette opened as -1.5 against Dayton and was favored in every advanced metric. I don't care what the closing line was, we were the favorite last night.
;)
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2024, 10:14:46 PMWhy is that? Maryland, Dayton, Georgia, Purdue, Wisconsin, those are all games that considering the location we were supposed to win. We did nothing to overachieve, so I'm not sure how you get to a B, much less B+.
An average grade is a C. Going 10-1 against this schedule would merit a C. But 9-2 with a required return game that never should be played other than as a buy game? That's below average.
But maybe I just had higher standards coming in.
This is an argument for another topic entirely, and irrelevant to the poll question at hand.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2024, 10:14:46 PMWhy is that? Maryland, Dayton, Georgia, Purdue, Wisconsin, those are all games that considering the location we were supposed to win. We did nothing to overachieve, so I'm not sure how you get to a B, much less B+.
An average grade is a C. Going 10-1 against this schedule would merit a C. But 9-2 with a required return game that never should be played other than as a buy game? That's below average.
But maybe I just had higher standards coming in.
I think your expectations are simply too high. Even if they were 90% favorites going to every non conference game, the chances of them going undefeated were only 30%.
You get too wrapped up in numbers as absolute predictors without understanding that any human activity is going to have variables. Especially 18-22 year olds playing in stressful environment.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2024, 11:31:36 PMThe "big" home non-con games are there not just to build a resume but to promote the program nationally and to STHs & fans. Dayton won't do that. Better to take a buy game and schedule a H/H with a program that's more of a peer next year. ND, Purdue, Bucky, Texas, those move the dial. Dayton is not that.
Marquette is going to sell season tickets and generate interest if Marquette is successful no matter the non-conference opponents. Claiming that ND is a peer, when they were significantly worse the last two seasons than Dayton was yesterday and likely will be next year, is interesting though.
Quote from: CountryRoads on December 14, 2024, 11:59:46 PMMU has home and homes with Purdue, Maryland and Wisconsin. You may know off the top of your head, but who in the country even comes close to that? Sorry, but season ticket holders are pretty spoiled to be expecting anything more than that in the non-conference. Replace Dayton with Arkansas Pine Bluff as a buy game and that's still miles better than what the schedule used to be. Having 4 quality home and homes going on concurrently seems pretty insane to me. Even if you don't like 1 of them, 3 still probably tops almost every program in the country.
Every year we have two marquee matchups at home:
- 2024: Purdue & Wisconsin
- 2023: Texas & Notre Dame
- 2022: Baylor & Wisconsin
- 2021: Illinois & UCLA
- 2020: Oklahoma St & Wisconsin (in a 7-game non-con schedule with COVID)
Dayton does not belong on that list. If you're going to break with the "we only give up home games for high majors" plan you must win both legs to consider it a success.
Maybe I'm just a harsher grader, but when you do (at best) what was expected of you, that's a C. When you do that while degrading your future STH schedule, that knocks it a letter down.
They can still have a solid season, go to a Final Four, but as of December 15, they've come up short of my personal expectations. If you personally disagree, then I guess I just had higher expectations of this team.
Quote from: Johnny B on December 15, 2024, 04:32:36 AMYou're a f uckin troll moron
What grade did you vote for?
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 15, 2024, 07:51:16 AMI think your expectations are simply too high. Even if they were 90% favorites going to every non conference game, the chances of them going undefeated were only 30%.
You get too wrapped up in numbers as absolute predictors without understanding that any human activity is going to have variables. Especially 18-22 year olds playing in stressful environment.
Marquette is going to sell season tickets and generate interest if Marquette is successful no matter the non-conference opponents. Claiming that ND is a peer, when they were significantly worse the last two seasons than Dayton was yesterday and likely will be next year, is interesting though.
Bingo. This and blowing off Wisconsin and Purdue that they were both at home and expected to win any home game...they didn't just win those, they dismantled each of them in the 2nd half. Go beyond simply W or L and where it was played.
They had a great non con. Last night was disappointing, but doesn't take away from on the whole some very impressive performances against good programs.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2024, 07:55:10 AMEvery year we have two marquee matchups at home:
- 2024: Purdue & Wisconsin
- 2023: Texas & Notre Dame
- 2022: Baylor & Wisconsin
- 2021: Illinois & UCLA
- 2020: Oklahoma St & Wisconsin (in a 7-game non-con schedule with COVID)
Dayton does not belong on that list. If you're going to break with the "we only give up home games for high majors" plan you must win both legs to consider it a success.
Maybe I'm just a harsher grader, but when you do (at best) what was expected of you, that's a C. When you do that while degrading your future STH schedule, that knocks it a letter down.
They can still have a solid season, go to a Final Four, but as of December 15, they've come up short of my personal expectations. If you personally disagree, then I guess I just had higher expectations of this team.
You have expectations that are going to always lead to you being disappointed. Which is your right, certainly. But this was objectively a very good non conference performance.
And we don't know Marquette's full schedule for next year.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2024, 07:55:10 AMEvery year we have two marquee matchups at home:
- 2024: Purdue & Wisconsin
- 2023: Texas & Notre Dame
- 2022: Baylor & Wisconsin
- 2021: Illinois & UCLA
- 2020: Oklahoma St & Wisconsin (in a 7-game non-con schedule with COVID)
Dayton does not belong on that list. If you're going to break with the "we only give up home games for high majors" plan you must win both legs to consider it a success.
Maybe I'm just a harsher grader, but when you do (at best) what was expected of you, that's a C. When you do that while degrading your future STH schedule, that knocks it a letter down.
They can still have a solid season, go to a Final Four, but as of December 15, they've come up short of my personal expectations. If you personally disagree, then I guess I just had higher expectations of this team.
Not higher, unrealistic and ignoring the performances that made up the wins.
Also, irrelevant argument about scheduling that belongs in a whole other topic. So I guess applying that and all home games are simply a W they started at about a B+ before tipping off against Stony Brook and could only go down from there.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 15, 2024, 07:51:16 AMI think your expectations are simply too high. Even if they were 90% favorites going to every non conference game, the chances of them going undefeated were only 30%.
My expectations were not undefeated. They were 10-1. If we don't choke away a 13-point second half lead, we would be meeting those expectations.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 15, 2024, 07:51:16 AMYou get too wrapped up in numbers as absolute predictors without understanding that any human activity is going to have variables. Especially 18-22 year olds playing in stressful environment.
If expecting a 13-point second half lead to result in a win when we are the bigger, stronger, more talented team, then I guess my expectations really are too high.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 15, 2024, 07:51:16 AMMarquette is going to sell season tickets and generate interest if Marquette is successful no matter the non-conference opponents. Claiming that ND is a peer, when they were significantly worse the last two seasons than Dayton was yesterday and likely will be next year, is interesting though.
If you don't understand the Marquette fan perception difference between Notre Dame and Dayton, I really don't know what to tell you. Most out-of-state Marquette fans I talk to consider them our biggest non-con rival.
I never considered ND a huge add from a quadrant perspective, but from a fan interest perspective, it was huge getting them back on the schedule.
We do know that they are hosting Maryland and Dayton, and going on the road to UW and Purdue. It would be nice to get another high major series started with the loss of the Big 12 challenge, but we will see if that happens. We also don't know about any MTEs, or neutral site games. But that's where they got the Texas, Baylor and Oklahoma State games. (And Oklahoma State moves the needle a lot less than Dayton.)
But again, Marquette is going to sell season tickets because they are Marquette. They play in the Big East and have a great home court atmosphere.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 15, 2024, 08:07:17 AMWe do know that they are hosting Maryland and Dayton, and going on the road to UW and Purdue. It would be nice to get another high major series started with the loss of the Big 12 challenge, but we will see if that happens. We also don't know about any MTEs, or neutral site games. But that's where they got the Texas, Baylor and Oklahoma State games. (And Oklahoma State moves the needle a lot less than Dayton.)
But again, Marquette is going to sell season tickets because they are Marquette. They play in the Big East and have a great home court atmosphere.
I get what people are saying about Dayton not "moving the needle" but let's not act like the arena won't be hopping next year.
I'd be a lot more concerned about something like that if Marquette was mediocre and they aren't. They're one of the elite teams in the nation this year.
Brew is one of our smarter fans and posters but on this I'll disagree with him.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2024, 08:05:56 AMIf expecting a 13-point second half lead to result in a win when we are the bigger, stronger, more talented team, then I guess my expectations really are too high.
I wasn't talking about yesterday. I was talking about the topic. You seem to think that performing 10-1 is only worth a C, and anything less than that is a D, because they were favored in ten games. But that's not how probabilities work.
If Marquette played 11 games and was 51% favorites in each one, I guess you would expect 11-0, but simple math suggests that a near impossibility.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2024, 08:05:56 AMIf you don't understand the Marquette fan perception difference between Notre Dame and Dayton, I really don't know what to tell you. Most out-of-state Marquette fans I talk to consider them our biggest non-con rival.
I never considered ND a huge add from a quadrant perspective, but from a fan interest perspective, it was huge getting them back on the schedule.
You used the word "peer." Notre Dame was not a peer in any way.
Glad everyone is so obsessed with my grading. I wrote in preseason that I felt this team could be as good or better than the last two years.
If you thought this team would fall off without TK & Oso and are pleasantly surprised they didn't, then I understand your easier grading curve. I personally expected a top-10 team that would be neck and neck with UConn. Suffice to say, that requires a bit more accomplishment to exceed expectations.
Scheduling Dayton, just like scheduling Georgia on a football Saturday with no TV plan in place, was always going to put a cap on the grade. The team slightly underperformed, but part of my estimation of the non-con is how well it was planned and how well it sets us up for the future. The 9-2 record, FloHoops, and Dayton in 2025 are all knocks on this non-con.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2024, 08:16:30 AMGlad everyone is so obsessed with my grading. I wrote in preseason that I felt this team could be as good or better than the last two years.
If you thought this team would fall off without TK & Oso and are pleasantly surprised they didn't, then I understand your easier grading curve. I personally expected a top-10 team that would be neck and neck with UConn. Suffice to say, that requires a bit more accomplishment to exceed expectations.
Scheduling Dayton, just like scheduling Georgia on a football Saturday with no TV plan in place, was always going to put a cap on the grade. The team slightly underperformed, but part of my estimation of the non-con is how well it was planned and how well it sets us up for the future. The 9-2 record, FloHoops, and Dayton in 2025 are all knocks on this non-con.
Fair. I get it.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2024, 08:16:30 AMGlad everyone is so obsessed with my grading. I wrote in preseason that I felt this team could be as good or better than the last two years.
If you thought this team would fall off without TK & Oso and are pleasantly surprised they didn't, then I understand your easier grading curve. I personally expected a top-10 team that would be neck and neck with UConn. Suffice to say, that requires a bit more accomplishment to exceed expectations.
Scheduling Dayton, just like scheduling Georgia on a football Saturday with no TV plan in place, was always going to put a cap on the grade. The team slightly underperformed, but part of my estimation of the non-con is how well it was planned and how well it sets us up for the future. The 9-2 record, FloHoops, and Dayton in 2025 are all knocks on this non-con.
The fact that you are including a game on NEXT year's schedule to judge the performance of this year's team is a bridge waaaayyy too far for me.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 15, 2024, 08:15:04 AMI wasn't talking about yesterday. I was talking about the topic. You seem to think that performing 10-1 is only worth a C, and anything less than that is a D, because they were favored in ten games. But that's not how probabilities work.
And you are only focused on performance. The record is one of multiple failings with this non-con.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 15, 2024, 08:15:04 AMIf Marquette played 11 games and was 51% favorites in each one, I guess you would expect 11-0, but simple math suggests that a near impossibility.
Everyone else is asserting I'm using kenpom probabilities for my expectations. I'm not. Please stop with that assumption.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 15, 2024, 08:15:04 AMYou used the word "peer." Notre Dame was not a peer in any way.
On the court, they were not. In terms of program, conference, and historical relevance, yes, they were.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on December 15, 2024, 08:20:37 AMThe fact that you are including a game on NEXT year's schedule to judge the performance of this year's team is a bridge waaaayyy too far for me.
Non-con performance is both the team performance and Athletic Department performance, IMO.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2024, 08:16:30 AMIf you thought this team would fall off without TK & Oso and are pleasantly surprised they didn't, then I understand your easier grading curve. I personally expected a top-10 team that would be neck and neck with UConn. Suffice to say, that requires a bit more accomplishment to exceed expectations.
I had similar expectations. But they still have to play up to those expectations, so its hard for me to say 9-2 is a D.
So you are basing your grade not just on the court (one bad half of basketball with a healthy roster in 11 games), but on scheduling a home and home with Dayton in the first place and the Georgia fiasco. I have to assume, unspoken, the scrimmage food issue.
If I understand correctly, your grade is for the whole program, opportunities missed or poorly managed, and one additional loss than forecast.
All of Brew's arguments for his grade would not have required watching one minute of any game.
Quote from: K1 Lover on December 15, 2024, 12:26:23 AMAre you using your own odds too? What you're saying is objectively false since Maryland and Dayton were both favored according to the point spreads.
And you said it yourself — what you're talking about isn't even related to the loss or purpose of this thread. You're just frustrated about Dayton being a home-and-home (to a bizarrely extreme extent, for some reason).
Clearly you misread the title. It was asking about your grade for Marquette's non-con performance, not the non-con scheduling. I recommend posting a new discussion thread if it bothers you that badly, rather than hijacking this one with an irrelevant diatribe.
We are in a golden era of Marquette hoops, best since Al McGuire, and you could argue better than Al's glory days - and BrewCity77 calls a 10-2 Non-Con record/schedule that featured a Top 5 Ken Pom team on the road, 4 Top 25 Ken Pom games, and 2 more in Ken Pom Top 40, a "C" or "D"? C'mon man. Perhaps BrewCity is rolling in his frustration over no tube steak available during the open scrimmage?
Dayton is a legit Top 25 team and obviously a tough place to win, and certainly a higher value strength of schedule opponent than Notre Dame. I'm glad we scheduled Dayton. The loss will give the team and staff some good film to study, learn from, and improve.
My grade btw is an "A," and I too had high expectations coming into this year - thought this was a Top 15ish type of team. We are exceeding that. Love this team and staff.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 15, 2024, 08:26:33 AMI had similar expectations. But they still have to play up to those expectations, so its hard for me to say 9-2 is a D.
Which is your prerogative. But coupling not meeting on court expectations with FloHoops. Dayton next year, and a run of 4 straight games that had us on Flo/FS2/FS2/ESPN+, meaning many fans couldn't watch any of those are all negatives that also impact the grade.
For me...
A - Blows away expectations (undefeated, #1 ranking, top-3 kenpom, getting Georgia & ISU on broadcast TV)
B - Exceeds expectations, accomplishing at least two of the above
C - Meets expectations, 10-1, top-10 in both AP & Kenpom, all games easily accessible to the casual fan.
D - Fails to meet expectations, 9-2, games difficult to find
Every time we have these grading things, I'm typically a harsh grader. I think y'all take my grades way too seriously, but if you put Dayton on the schedule, you absolutely have to sweep that, and even then it's still a half letter grade knock for me.
Yeah, I can't mix in the off court stuff with the on court performance. It leaves a bad taste in ones mouth for sure, but is completely independent of the team's actual performance.
Quote from: tower912 on December 15, 2024, 08:29:54 AMSo you are basing your grade not just on the court (one bad half of basketball with a healthy roster in 11 games), but on scheduling a home and home with Dayton in the first place and the Georgia fiasco. I have to assume, unspoken, the scrimmage food issue.
If I understand correctly, your grade is for the whole program, opportunities missed or poorly managed, and one additional loss than forecast.
Yes. The record is just one part of the grade, but no, the scrimmage and other preseason failures are not factored in. My grade starts with Stony Brook, the team performance since, the non-con schedule construction this year and how it impacts the future, and game accessibility.
Georgia & Iowa State being streaming only are another big knock. That didn't impact me personally, but from a program perspective, those are a massive failure, IMO (which is the only thing that matters to my grade).
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2024, 08:16:30 AMGlad everyone is so obsessed with my grading. I wrote in preseason that I felt this team could be as good or better than the last two years.
Nobody is obsessed with your grading. Pointing out that it is based on unrealistic mathematical and scientific data doesn't indicate obsession. Defending provably unrealistic expectations is where obsession enters the discussion.
The ISU TV situation was beyond MU's control. That was a Big 12 call.
I'll back you up on that Dayton series all day. Should we schedule SLU because there's history there? VCU because of Shaka? Davidson so they can avenge the first round loss?
I don't want to hear "Good for Marquette, a lot of high majors wouldn't play at Dayton." That's because a lot of high majors are smarter than MU.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 15, 2024, 08:48:07 AMYeah, I can't mix in the off court stuff with the on court performance. It leaves a bad taste in ones mouth for sure, but is completely independent of the team's actual performance.
But the question was Marquette's non-con performance. For me those two are linked.
I'm sorry, but you fly to the Bahamas with no broadcast plan and get a top-6 matchup relegated to a streaming platform and can't get it moved to somewhere more accessible, that's a failure. No, not an on-court failure, but a Marquette failure.
And I mostly kept my Dayton thoughts in private conversations because, from a bracketologist perspective, it could be an okay addition if (but only if) you sweep that series. We basically handed them an at-large bid at our expense, and I mean expense literally because having Dayton on next year's schedule instead of a high major actively hurts the program.
We are Marquette. We aspire to again be the Champs of a league that has seen their best NCAA teams win 4 of the last 8 national championships. We should act like it.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2024, 08:25:37 AMNon-con performance is both the team performance and Athletic Department performance, IMO.
C'mon.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 15, 2024, 08:48:59 AMNobody is obsessed with your grading. Pointing out that it is based on unrealistic mathematical and scientific data doesn't indicate obsession. Defending provably unrealistic expectations is where obsession enters the discussion.
And yet you keep responding...
You are looking at probabilities that I do not feel accurately represent what this team should be. The team we saw against Maryland, Purdue, Wisconsin, & first half Dayton was what I expected this team to be. When in the vast majority of minutes played they were meeting my expectations, I don't view that as unrealistic. Maybe spend less time looking at probabilities and more watching the games.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 15, 2024, 08:52:06 AMThe ISU TV situation was beyond MU's control. That was a Big 12 call.
I'll back you up on that Dayton series all day. Should we schedule SLU because there's history there? VCU because of Shaka? Davidson so they can avenge the first round loss?
I don't want to hear "Good for Marquette, a lot of high majors wouldn't play at Dayton." That's because a lot of high majors are smarter than MU.
Shaka is just so in over his head 🙄
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 14, 2024, 09:04:26 PMWhat grade do you give Marquette's non-conference performance?
No Arby's?
Very solid non conference in my opinion. They did not have their A game last night and that happens.
I would give the team a B+ thus far. I think this team showed their ceiling for crazy high performance is slightly lower than last couple years and their floor seems higher to me.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 15, 2024, 08:52:06 AMThe ISU TV situation was beyond MU's control. That was a Big 12 call.
I'll back you up on that Dayton series all day. Should we schedule SLU because there's history there? VCU because of Shaka? Davidson so they can avenge the first round loss?
I don't want to hear "Good for Marquette, a lot of high majors wouldn't play at Dayton." That's because a lot of high majors are smarter than MU.
The ISU game could've been optioned to ESPNEWS, ESPNU, or FS2. That not happening is on par with the Georgia TV situation, where someone else had the rights, but Marquette has a vested interest and voice in how it's handled.
And exact same thoughts on SLU or VCU. It's the same reason we don't play Green Bay or Milwaukee anymore. You wanna be a big boy, act like it. Gonzaga is the only non-P4 program we should give a home and home to.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2024, 08:56:16 AMBut the question was Marquette's non-con performance. For me those two are linked.
I'm sorry, but you fly to the Bahamas with no broadcast plan and get a top-6 matchup relegated to a streaming platform and can't get it moved to somewhere more accessible, that's a failure. No, not an on-court failure, but a Marquette failure.
And I mostly kept my Dayton thoughts in private conversations because, from a bracketologist perspective, it could be an okay addition if (but only if) you sweep that series. We basically handed them an at-large bid at our expense, and I mean expense literally because having Dayton on next year's schedule instead of a high major actively hurts the program.
We are Marquette. We aspire to again be the Champs of a league that has seen their best NCAA teams win 4 of the last 8 national championships. We should act like it.
When Villanova last won a national championship, they played a game in Allentown against Lafayette and two Big 5 road games.
Anyway, I agree it's not ideal, but it's fine and won't have a significant bearing on MU's ultimate success.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2024, 09:01:31 AMYou are looking at probabilities that I do not feel accurately represent what this team should be.
Well, then I guess this observation of yours might be accurate.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2024, 10:14:46 PMBut maybe I just had higher standards coming in.
You can set whatever standards you like, but just like last year, I think they are unreasonably high.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 15, 2024, 09:09:16 AMWhen Villanova last won a national championship, they played a game in Allentown against Lafayette and two Big 5 road games.
Anyway, I agree it's not ideal, but it's fine and won't have a significant bearing on MU's ultimate success.
Personally, I feel playing in a hostile environment like Dayton last night served a far better purpose than playing at say Cal or some other bad-to-mediocre P4 school
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 15, 2024, 09:02:33 AMShaka is just so in over his head 🙄
Oh GTFOH. Shaka and Broeker have done a really good job of scheduling. But I think this was a misstep. Your opinion may vary.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2024, 09:01:31 AMAnd yet you keep responding...
You are looking at probabilities that I do not feel accurately represent what this team should be. The team we saw against Maryland, Purdue, Wisconsin, & first half Dayton was what I expected this team to be. When in the vast majority of minutes played they were meeting my expectations, I don't view that as unrealistic. Maybe spend less time looking at probabilities and more watching the games.
Ah, science be damned when we have the Brew eye test to go by. LOL
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 15, 2024, 09:17:38 AMPersonally, I feel playing in a hostile environment like Dayton last night served a far better purpose than playing at say Cal or some other bad-to-mediocre P4 school
This ^
The P4 of today isn't the P4 we were used to in the past
Half of those teams in the ACC and plenty in the B10 are currently awful programs.
Facing Dayton in a home and home this year and next is better for Marquette than facing several of the P4 teams imo.
Would fans get that much more fired up about a home game versus USC, Washington, Boston College, Cal, Georgia Tech, Minnesota, TCU, etc?
I understand it based off historical mid major scheduling fear, but Dayton is a very good program under Anthony Grant
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 15, 2024, 09:17:38 AMPersonally, I feel playing in a hostile environment like Dayton last night served a far better purpose than playing at say Cal or some other bad-to-mediocre P4 school
And Dayton would be a bigger draw than Cal next year. As evidenced in this very topic, many Marquette fans have siblings and friends who went to Dayton.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 15, 2024, 09:22:39 AMOh GTFOH. Shaka and Broeker have done a really good job of scheduling. But I think this was a misstep. Your opinion may vary.
You changed your statement from "That's because a lot of high majors are smarter than MU." to now being a "misstep". Just admit your first comment was stupid instead of pretending you said or meant something else.
We played a Q1 road game.
When we scheduled all cupcakes and Wisconsin at home people cried about not scheduling enough tough games. Now we're scheduling Q1 road games and we're above that. ::)
Also, Marquette had literally absolutely zero ability to do anything about what station the Iowa State game is on. The idea that Marquette just chose ESPN+ for a game the B12 had the rights to instead of Broeker just getting on the phone and getting that thing on big Fox, ESPN, NBC, and ABC at the same time shows your "expectations" aren't just higher than other people's, they're simply out of touch with reality.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 15, 2024, 09:35:11 AMYou changed your statement from "That's because a lot of high majors are smarter than MU." to now being a "misstep". Just admit your first comment was stupid instead of pretending you said or meant something else.
Smart people make dumb decisions sometimes. I think was dumb to schedule this home and home. And pretty much every other high major would agree, based on how few go to Dayton.
Hope that helps clear this up for you.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 15, 2024, 09:32:28 AMAnd Dayton would be a bigger draw than Cal next year. As evidenced in this very topic, many Marquette fans have siblings and friends who went to Dayton.
I'd add, there's a personal comnection between Shaka and Grant, too. Relationships matter to the program
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2024, 10:14:46 PMWhy is that? Maryland, Dayton, Georgia, Purdue, Wisconsin, those are all games that considering the location we were supposed to win. We did nothing to overachieve, so I'm not sure how you get to a B, much less B+.
An average grade is a C. Going 10-1 against this schedule would merit a C. But 9-2 with a required return game that never should be played other than as a buy game? That's below average.
But maybe I just had higher standards coming in.
Agree. Our best win was @Maryland which leaves me wondering what could have been... and where we really are.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2024, 08:44:06 AMEvery time we have these grading things, I'm typically a harsh grader. I think y'all take my grades way too seriously, but if you put Dayton on the schedule, you absolutely have to sweep that, and even then it's still a half letter grade knock for me.
First off, including the athletic department in a grading of player performances is just stupid. There's no Naismith award for AD of the year, and Bill Scholl isn't going to win us six games in March. No one's obsessed with your grading - only annoyed by the fact that what you're saying effectively detracts from how well our players have actually been doing on the floor. That lack of appreciation gives me the impression you've never actually played a sport.
Secondly, are you really a harsh grader, or are you simply such a passionate Dayton hater that it not-so-subtly influences your entire perception of the non-con slate. I can't help but be reminded of something you said in this (https://www.anonymouseagle.com/2024/7/10/24195964/marquette-golden-eagles-mens-basketball-non-conference-schedule-dayton-flyers-home-and-home-series) article you wrote five months ago:
"I am still mad at Dayton about this. I do not want to play them. Yes, I am being a sore loser about it. I do not care."
Would it be fair to say this same attitude guided your grading as well?
Right, if they would have scheduled someone like LaSalle home and home, I wouldn't be happy about it. But Dayton is fine. Not ideal, but acceptable.
It would be nice if we could get access to some of the one off games that UConn and the Zags played at MSG last night. But we just aren't at that level yet. Need to get to a couple Final Fours before we can be that type of draw.
I could also see the emphasis on a winnable road game to help seeding. Coming out of the non-con with 2 road wins would have really bolstered the resume.
Also, we get Dayton at home with probably a much less experienced team. I get that we didn't give a Buffalo or other similar level school a Home and Home, but some of this might be the trade off of not doing an MTE. You have to schedule more higher quality games that were taken care of for you before.
Not that these grades really mean anything, but docking the grade due to tv situation to me seems equivalent to changing the grade based on how much you like the throwback yellow and player designed jerseys.
Quote from: K1 Lover on December 15, 2024, 09:47:49 AMFirst off, including the athletic department in a grading of player performances is just stupid.
Read the opening post. It says nothing about player performances. That's you putting your own feelings into my assessment.
Quote from: K1 Lover on December 15, 2024, 09:47:49 AMI can't help but be reminded of something you said in this (https://www.anonymouseagle.com/2024/7/10/24195964/marquette-golden-eagles-mens-basketball-non-conference-schedule-dayton-flyers-home-and-home-series) article you wrote five months ago:
"I am still mad at Dayton about this. I do not want to play them. Yes, I am being a sore loser about it. I do not care."
Would it be fair to say this same attitude guided your grading as well?
I know you're new here, but I didn't write that. I'm not Brewtown Andy nor have I ever written for Anonymous Eagle.
Just so I'm not accused of being unfair or thinking our outstanding coach is in over his head...
I do think scheduling is going to be increasingly difficult moving forward. With the mega-leagues and diminishing role of MTEs it's going to be harder to get quality non-con games against power conference teams. They'll need to get creative.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2024, 10:10:40 AMI know you're new here, but I didn't write that. I'm not Brewtown Andy nor have I ever written for Anonymous Eagle.
Apologies for the mix-up then. It was suggested to me otherwise. Yet, my point still stands.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 15, 2024, 10:16:44 AMJust so I'm not accused of being unfair or thinking our outstanding coach is in over his head...
I do think scheduling is going to be increasingly difficult moving forward. With the mega-leagues and diminishing role of MTEs it's going to be harder to get quality non-con games against power conference teams. They'll need to get creative.
And larger in conference schedules.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2024, 10:08:18 AMRead the opening post. It says nothing about player performances. That's you putting your own feelings into my assessment.
Ask every sports fan in the world to rate their team's performance and I can guarantee you that less than 0.0001% answer that question the same way you did.
There's a comedic level of irony in you saying that I'm putting my own feelings into my assessment.
I mean we can ask Rico what he meant, but I don't think he meant anything but on court performance.
Scheduling a home and home with Dayton reeked mid-major at the time, now it's aging even worse.
There's no upside for MU, only the downside which they are in now.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 15, 2024, 10:23:51 AMI mean we can ask Rico what he meant, but I don't think he meant anything but on court performance.
That's what I meant but also appreciate the discussion. If I wanted a topic to stay on-topic, I would not come to scoop anyway expecting that.
I was not and am not thrilled with the scheduling of Dayton. But it's such a low priority issue for me in the grand scheme of things I wouldn't include it anyway. Had we been 9-2 with a loss to Maryland instead, it doesn't change what I think of this team. I think the ceiling is quite high and will be disappointed if they don't challenge for the Big East regular season title
Quote from: 🏀 on December 15, 2024, 10:29:07 AMScheduling a home and home with Dayton reeked mid-major at the time, now it's aging even worse.
There's no upside for MU, only the downside which they are in now.
If they schedule a home-and-home with South Carolina and lose there last night instead, would that be better?
Quote from: 🏀 on December 15, 2024, 10:29:07 AMScheduling a home and home with Dayton reeked mid-major at the time, now it's aging even worse.
There's no upside for MU, only the downside which they are in now.
The last time MU lost at Dayton the season ended up ok.
Playing at Dayton is a good decision and toughens us up going into conference play. UD arena is a tougher atmosphere than most BE venues and as we've already seen, Dayton is a legit squad and would be top four in the BE.
Quote from: K1 Lover on December 15, 2024, 10:22:05 AMAsk every sports fan in the world to rate their team's performance and I can guarantee you that less than 0.0001% answer that question the same way you did.
There's a comedic level of irony in you saying that I'm putting my own feelings into my assessment.
I agree with this analysis. And further, to expect the team to go 11-0 to meet expectations is a similarly unlikely probability of .0001%.
Buy hey, god damnit, Mike Broeker should have the power to wield over ESPN and get that ISU game on ESPN!! What an amateur hour operation we have running our basketball scheduling. (And open scrimmages without free tube steak available for the kids!!)
I do wonder if this discussion is different had they lost their 2nd game two weeks ago to someone in similar fashion versus last night. Recency bias is a powerful thing in discussing sports, well, anything in general
Quote from: K1 Lover on December 15, 2024, 10:17:21 AMApologies for the mix-up then. It was suggested to me otherwise. Yet, my point still stands.
That I'm accountable for someone else's words?
Quote from: K1 Lover on December 15, 2024, 10:22:05 AMAsk every sports fan in the world to rate their team's performance and I can guarantee you that less than 0.0001% answer that question the same way you did.
There's a comedic level of irony in you saying that I'm putting my own feelings into my assessment.
Really not comedic because you are the one trying to evaluate my personal evaluation. Last I checked, I'm not the one criticizing everyone else's grades because they don't conform with my own.
B but AB on the traditional MU grading scale.
If the Dayton loss teaches some things on how MU needs to put away a solid opponent and win on the road against conference teams then it served its purpose.
Time to beat Butler and Xavier and enjoy Christmas.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2024, 10:38:28 AMThat I'm accountable for someone else's words?
Really not comedic because you are the one trying to evaluate my personal evaluation. Last I checked, I'm not the one criticizing everyone else's grades because they don't conform with my own.
No, the point that still stands is that you clearly appear to be so fixated and upset by the Dayton home-and-home that it outweighs anything else positive that's come out of the non-con.
And you're also wrong in that I'm criticizing anyone else's grades for not confirming with my own. You're not the only one said anything less the "AB" I gave. But you
are the only one who's failed to answer the question in a way that is close to relevant. That is what I'm criticizing.
Quote from: K1 Lover on December 15, 2024, 10:46:25 AMNo, the point that still stands is that you clearly appear to be so fixated and upset by the Dayton home-and-home that it outweighs anything else positive that's come out of the non-con.
And you're also wrong in that I'm criticizing anyone else's grades for not confirming with my own. You're not the only one said anything less the "AB" I gave. But you are the only one who's failed to answer the question in a way that is close to relevant. That is what I'm criticizing.
I've answered it repeatedly. Record below expectations, metrics only meeting expectations, poor handing of television rights, poor setup for future non-con schedules.
And my feelings on Dayton are based on what the athletic department has said. After the Green Bay loss, they told me they were changing how they handled non-con scheduling and would no longer give home games up to non-HM teams. This was repeated multiple times since then.
If they're going to go against their own scheduling policies, they better get it right, and in this case, they didn't. I would say the same if it was SLU, Wichita State, Loyola Chicago, Boise State, St Mary's, or other mid-major.
A lot has changed since MU lost at Green Bay 13 years ago.
And they also won the BE and progressed to the E8 that season.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 15, 2024, 11:11:32 AMA lot has changed since MU lost at Green Bay 13 years ago.
Bingo. To hold onto something one was told 13 years ago as it relates to college basketball scheduling is ridiculous.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2024, 11:02:06 AMI've answered it repeatedly. Record below expectations, metrics only meeting expectations, poor handing of television rights, poor setup for future non-con schedules.
And my feelings on Dayton are based on what the athletic department has said. After the Green Bay loss, they told me they were changing how they handled non-con scheduling and would no longer give home games up to non-HM teams. This was repeated multiple times since then.
If they're going to go against their own scheduling policies, they better get it right, and in this case, they didn't. I would say the same if it was SLU, Wichita State, Loyola Chicago, Boise State, St Mary's, or other mid-major.
I'll take a home and home with a strong "mid major" over a low level "high major" team. The benefits of playing Dayton are greater than playing South Carolina, Va Tech, Mississippi State, or UCF. Would you oppose a home and home with Memphis because they're in a non-HM conference? Or any of the MVC teams that made the dance last year. Dayton is going to be a Q1 loss, I'm fine with that. We didn't lose to Illinois State or Davidson or, UWGB.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 15, 2024, 11:11:32 AMA lot has changed since MU lost at Green Bay 13 years ago.
And they also won the BE and progressed to the E8 that season.
Not that we won't give up home games to non-HM teams. That was repeated to me as recently as May of this year.
And nothing about my grade says this team can't still reach great heights. Contending for the Big East title and Elite 8 has been my expectation from the start and hasn't changed.
Yeah I'd go B plus.....win last night and it's an A
I certainly would have taken 9-2 at the beginning of the year.
Ps I also had 1-2 in the poll for the last 3 but at the half I was feeling hopeful that I was going to be wrong..........unfortunately not.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2024, 11:21:38 AMNot that we won't give up home games to non-HM teams. That was repeated to me as recently as May of this year.
Well if that was just told to you in May, don't you think that there were some sort of circumstances that made the scheduling of Dayton the best of whatever options were also available?
Did the rumored discussions with NCST fall apart at the last minute? Did they want to give up a home buy game to get at least something decent on the books for next year? And maybe Shaka was fine with it due to his relationship with Grant and the fact that he used to work there.
It feels like you are being overly critical of a decision without understanding all the circumstances behind it.
And in the end, it is fine.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2024, 11:02:06 AMI've answered it repeatedly. Record below expectations, metrics only meeting expectations, poor handing of television rights, poor setup for future non-con schedules.
And my feelings on Dayton are based on what the athletic department has said. After the Green Bay loss, they told me they were changing how they handled non-con scheduling and would no longer give home games up to non-HM teams. This was repeated multiple times since then.
If they're going to go against their own scheduling policies, they better get it right, and in this case, they didn't. I would say the same if it was SLU, Wichita State, Loyola Chicago, Boise State, St Mary's, or other mid-major.
Anything beyond player/coach performance is superfluous to me. I know you're a numbers guy, but basketball is qualitative too. This sport would be played by robots if it weren't. So although we can agree losing to Dayton is objectively bad for Marquette, that doesn't mean a loss like this doesn't have the opportunity to pay dividends down the road and result in a net positive later. Perhaps this is where we differ, but like it was mentioned previously, I'd gladly take a loss to tournament-level teams in a hostile environment over a win against bottom-feeding high-majors any day.
I don't know who "they" are, but I can only assume you're referring to MUBB staff. All I can say is I'm sorry they've wronged you. I get why you'd be upset, and though I don't completely agree with your logic, I understand why that frustration would influence your opinions on the non-con. I simply haven't had the same experience, so naturally my only concern is the actual playing of basketball.
All that said, you may not be Brewtown Andy (I was confused by the fact your names both start with A), but I'll still continue to enjoy your opinions and analyses. I just have to agree to disagree with you on this one. Hopefully the scheduling improves over time, and along with it, your opinion on MUBB.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 15, 2024, 10:33:27 AMIf they schedule a home-and-home with South Carolina and lose there last night instead, would that be better?
No, losing is not acceptable.
But, yes.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2024, 09:08:36 AMThe ISU game could've been optioned to ESPNEWS, ESPNU, or FS2. That not happening is on par with the Georgia TV situation, where someone else had the rights, but Marquette has a vested interest and voice in how it's handled.
And exact same thoughts on SLU or VCU. It's the same reason we don't play Green Bay or Milwaukee anymore. You wanna be a big boy, act like it. Gonzaga is the only non-P4 program we should give a home and home to.
TV rights don't work the way you think they work.
Quote from: 🏀 on December 15, 2024, 11:51:14 AMNo, losing is not acceptable.
But, yes.
Losing to currently ranked #98 in the NET South Carolina would have been better? What about currently ranked #110 NC State who we were rumored to be negotiating with? That would have been more acceptable to you than #23 Dayton, currently ranked higher than all but two Big East teams? Let's buy out Dayton for next year and replace them with #168 Minnesota or #196 Boston College on the schedule for next year, they are in a high major conference after all.
If I didn't know better I'd think I was on the Badger board after they lost to us.
Quote from: 🏀 on December 15, 2024, 10:29:07 AMScheduling a home and home with Dayton reeked mid-major at the time, now it's aging even worse.
There's no upside for MU, only the downside which they are in now.
Honestly it's quite the opposite. No downside whatsoever to playing the road game this year. We lost a Q1 road game. Oh no! So will everyone in the country. We dropped a whopping 2 spots on KenPom. What a terrible loss!
The loss won't even register to the selection committee. It was a chance for a Q1 road win. That moves the needle. A Q1 road loss does not move the needle at all.
And next year with a less experienced roster we get a home game.
Are you guys really debating if a home and home with Dayton is good for the program? There are a lot of things in the world that I currently find troubling but this two year series makes perfect sense to me.
No stud of the Noncon when we lose
Why do we think playing Dayton next season won't be a fan draw? The Fiserv was packed and rocking for fricking Buffalo when they were good a few years ago. Assuming we're a top 25 team again it'll be a possible sellout.
B for me. We have the record I expected preaeason. I thought we would win at Dayton but lose at Maryland. Got to the B because we were more dominant in our wins than I expected and only had one half where I thought we played poorly in a meaningful game. Unfortunately it was the most recent half
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 16, 2024, 09:23:26 AMWhy do we think playing Dayton next season won't be a fan draw? The Fiserv was packed and rocking for fricking Buffalo when they were good a few years ago. Assuming we're a top 25 team again it'll be a possible sellout.
The A10 looks better than the Big East this year. The Bonnies over PC and Dayton over UCONN and MU.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 16, 2024, 09:23:26 AMWhy do we think playing Dayton next season won't be a fan draw? The Fiserv was packed and rocking for fricking Buffalo when they were good a few years ago. Assuming we're a top 25 team again it'll be a possible sellout.
I'm comfortable saying MU will take a sizable step back next year. The on-off splits with Kam are terrifying.
Buffalo just came off a big tournament upset the year before, brought everyone back, and was undefeated and ranked 14th in the country. If Dayton can equal that, wonderful. I'll eat crow about scheduling them.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 16, 2024, 09:23:26 AMWhy do we think playing Dayton next season won't be a fan draw? The Fiserv was packed and rocking for fricking Buffalo when they were good a few years ago. Assuming we're a top 25 team again it'll be a possible sellout.
We've hit point for the program where we don't need big name opponents to draw. The only area where that is the case is with students and we're still filling the section far more than we did during the days of Deane and the first two seasons under Crean. There are still far more student diehards than who will show up for anyone than there were when I was at MU in the late 90s.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on December 16, 2024, 09:40:56 AMThe A10 looks better than the Big East this year. The Bonnies over PC and Dayton over UCONN and MU.
You're gonna PAY for this post.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on December 16, 2024, 09:40:56 AMThe A10 looks better than the Big East this year. The Bonnies over PC and Dayton over UCONN and MU.
But also MU over George Mason.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on December 16, 2024, 09:40:56 AMThe A10 looks better than the Big East this year.
Not even close
https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/rpi-ranking/rpi-rating-by-conf
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 16, 2024, 09:50:59 AMWe've hit point for the program where we don't need big name opponents to draw. The only area where that is the case is with students and we're still filling the section far more than we did during the days of Deane and the first two seasons under Crean. There are still far more student diehards than who will show up for anyone than there were when I was at MU in the late 90s.
Yes and no. It certainly still helps, and we're a down season away from the attendance falling back a bit.
The one area that could be difficult with this return game is the timing, while fitting Purdue and Maryland around the UW game. If it's a weekend game there will be a sizable Dayton contingent there. They have a bunch of Chicago area alumni.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 16, 2024, 10:09:49 AMYes and no. It certainly still helps, and we're a down season away from the attendance falling back a bit.
The one area that could be difficult with this return game is the timing, while fitting Purdue and Maryland around the UW game. If it's a weekend game there will be a sizable Dayton contingent there. They have a bunch of Chicago area alumni.
Make it a gold package game
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 16, 2024, 09:23:26 AMWhy do we think playing Dayton next season won't be a fan draw? The Fiserv was packed and rocking for fricking Buffalo when they were good a few years ago. Assuming we're a top 25 team again it'll be a possible sellout.
Buffalo was an incredibly fortunate situation though. They were ranked #14 largely on the strength of their stunning win over preseason #13 West Virginia in OT. That WVU team went 15-21 FWIW. If Dayton comes in ranked in the #12 they might be a similar draw. But other than the 2020 Obi Toppin season, Dayton has been ranked that high for a total of one week since 1967-68.
Their name alone is not a draw, so unless they find lightning in a bottle with next year's roster with 4 of their top-6 rotation players ineligible to return, them being a draw on their own merit is unlikely. Color me skeptical. If they want to come as a buy game, fine, but otherwise they should not be on our schedule.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 16, 2024, 10:56:57 AMBuffalo was an incredibly fortunate situation though. They were ranked #14 largely on the strength of their stunning win over preseason #13 West Virginia in OT. That WVU team went 15-21 FWIW. If Dayton comes in ranked in the #12 they might be a similar draw. But other than the 2020 Obi Toppin season, Dayton has been ranked that high for a total of one week since 1967-68.
Their name alone is not a draw, so unless they find lightning in a bottle with next year's roster with 4 of their top-6 rotation players ineligible to return, them being a draw on their own merit is unlikely. Color me skeptical. If they want to come as a buy game, fine, but otherwise they should not be on our schedule.
If youre going to give casual fans enough credit to know that Buffalo that Buffalo was a good low major opponet that year, you gotta give them enough credit to know that Dayton is one of the top mid majors every season.
Unless we tank, that game will be packed
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 16, 2024, 09:44:44 AMI'm comfortable saying MU will take a sizable step back next year. The on-off splits with Kam are terrifying.
Buffalo just came off a big tournament upset the year before, brought everyone back, and was undefeated and ranked 14th in the country. If Dayton can equal that, wonderful. I'll eat crow about scheduling them.
See what i said to Brew about casual fans. If they knew about Buffalo, they'll know about Dayton.
I'm also terrified of the Kam on/off splits but it's early and our top bench PG is injured and our second bench PG is a freshman who missed a lot of offseason due to injury. Plenty of time to put a plan together for next season
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 16, 2024, 11:16:24 AMIf youre going to give casual fans enough credit to know that Buffalo that Buffalo was a good low major opponet that year, you gotta give them enough credit to know that Dayton is one of the top mid majors every season.
Unless we tank, that game will be packed
Not just that, but a lot of Marquette alumni have family and friends who went to Dayton. If you graduated anytime prior to 1990, you will remember Dayton as a team that they played every year. If it's played on a Saturday afternoon or night like the road game was, it will be packed.
Again, not my preferred non-conference opponent, but it works.
https://x.com/HolyLandofHoops/status/1868678179306815897?t=SUw60OmyvCmyA3HJlpmngg&s=19
Shaka speaks:
https://x.com/phillpmcg/status/1868707519805415695?t=hN6xOzU_ULQt_qBKVw2pmw&s=19
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 16, 2024, 11:40:15 AMhttps://x.com/HolyLandofHoops/status/1868678179306815897?t=SUw60OmyvCmyA3HJlpmngg&s=19
Shaka speaks:
https://x.com/phillpmcg/status/1868707519805415695?t=hN6xOzU_ULQt_qBKVw2pmw&s=19
If getting ready for the NCAA tourney is your goal, then play high quality non-conf opponents away.
If you goal is a nice record and possibly higher ranking, then play cupcakes at home.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2024, 07:36:32 AMMarquette opened as -1.5 against Dayton and was favored in every advanced metric. I don't care what the closing line was, we were the favorite last night.
I could have sworn Torvik had that one as a loss.
I came here for the AB jokes and was not disappointed.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 16, 2024, 09:23:26 AMWhy do we think playing Dayton next season won't be a fan draw? The Fiserv was packed and rocking for fricking Buffalo when they were good a few years ago. Assuming we're a top 25 team again it'll be a possible sellout.
MU fans better show up, and I think they will, because there is no doubt Dayton will have a large turnout in Milwaukee.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 16, 2024, 11:24:02 AMNot just that, but a lot of Marquette alumni have family and friends who went to Dayton. If you graduated anytime prior to 1990, you will remember Dayton as a team that they played every year. If it's played on a Saturday afternoon or night like the road game was, it will be packed.
Again, not my preferred non-conference opponent, but it works.
That was 35 years ago and Dayton wasn't that great 2 NCAA appearances in the 80 and 3 NITs makes our 80s stretch look good. The family & friends argument is stronger, in a similar reason ND is fun, or Creighton X & DePaul (could be) there's a lot of overlap in social circles that would make it enjoyable.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 16, 2024, 11:16:24 AMIf youre going to give casual fans enough credit to know that Buffalo that Buffalo was a good low major opponet that year, you gotta give them enough credit to know that Dayton is one of the top mid majors every season.
Unless we tank, that game will be packed
I think we're giving credit that people were excited we brought in a top 15 opponent not that they knew Buffalo was a top mid major for one year coming off another solid year. If Dayton (and us) aren't ranked I doubt it's that packed. And if we're playing immediately after finals again then I don't expect the students to be there en mass either.
Quote from: Goose on December 15, 2024, 02:13:05 PMAre you guys really debating if a home and home with Dayton is good for the program? There are a lot of things in the world that I currently find troubling but this two year series makes perfect sense to me.
Goose, I agree. Dayton is probably the best A-10 team in terms of program, facility, fan base, imo. Heck, wouldn't Dayton be a better addition to the BE than DeP currently is, or Gtown has been of late? Frustrating loss on Saturday because that was a very winnable road game. But, we remain top 10, so all good.
Viper
Agreed. I cannot say that Dayton would be on my dream non-conference wish list, but definitely a worthy amount and I am good with a home-home deal. Playing in a tough environment never hurts get a team ready. If you MU needed another non-conference win for seeding thank they are not as good as their ranking.
The terribly scheduled road game at a mid major who we are so far above dropped us 2 spots in Kenpom and 3 spots in the AP poll.
Guess the boys have to strap up the laces and show up to the game Wednesday. The season that was over appears to be back on after all.
By the way, Dayton won a Tournament game last year, lost 3 of their top 4 scorers, and will be a first round favorite this year. The idea that they'll be some awful mid-major next year is just as crazy as thinking Marquette is about to fall off a cliff because we lose Kam Jones, Stevie Mitchell, and David Joplin.
ABD
B and I'm a hard grader
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 16, 2024, 11:16:24 AMIf youre going to give casual fans enough credit to know that Buffalo that Buffalo was a good low major opponet that year, you gotta give them enough credit to know that Dayton is one of the top mid majors every season.
Unless we tank, that game will be packed
Buffalo was undefeated and ranked. It wasn't casuals knowing Buffalo was good. I'm taking the under on Dayton being top-14 and the over on losses at zero.
It's pretty much a once in a lifetime situation to get a buy game level opponent like Buffalo or Dayton to be undefeated and top-15. We're not adding STHs because they see Dayton and think "I gotta see that!"
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 16, 2024, 03:20:38 PMBuffalo was undefeated and ranked. It wasn't casuals knowing Buffalo was good. I'm taking the under on Dayton being top-14 and the over on losses at zero.
It's pretty much a once in a lifetime situation to get a buy game level opponent like Buffalo or Dayton to be undefeated and top-15. We're not adding STHs because they see Dayton and think "I gotta see that!"
I'm guessing Dayton won't be 11-0 because their schedule won't consist of St. Francis, West Virginia (finished 15-21 after losing to Coastal Carolina in the CBI that year), Southern Illinois, Dartmouth, Marist, Milwaukee, San Francisco, Le Moyne, St. Bonaventure, Southern Illinois (yes, they played the same team twice in the non-conference), and Syracuse (a good win against a 20-14 team that lost in the first round).
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 16, 2024, 03:20:38 PMBuffalo was undefeated and ranked. It wasn't casuals knowing Buffalo was good. I'm taking the under on Dayton being top-14 and the over on losses at zero.
It's pretty much a once in a lifetime situation to get a buy game level opponent like Buffalo or Dayton to be undefeated and top-15. We're not adding STHs because they see Dayton and think "I gotta see that!"
Well, no. I guess I never thought that the quality of the non-conference slate is why STHs are added anyway. I would guess than about 90% of STHs are added because Marquette is doing well.
If Marquette is good, and the game is on a weekend, it will draw a big crowd.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 16, 2024, 03:29:57 PMWell, no. I guess I never thought that the quality of the non-conference slate is why STHs are added anyway. I would guess than about 90% of STHs are added because Marquette is doing well.
If Marquette is good, and the game is on a weekend, it will draw a big crowd.
Hope we add Wake Forest or Nebraska next year
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 16, 2024, 03:20:38 PMBuffalo was undefeated and ranked. It wasn't casuals knowing Buffalo was good. I'm taking the under on Dayton being top-14 and the over on losses at zero.
It's pretty much a once in a lifetime situation to get a buy game level opponent like Buffalo or Dayton to be undefeated and top-15. We're not adding STHs because they see Dayton and think "I gotta see that!"
Honest question. Do you work for Marquette's ticket office? I'm trying to understand why you have such heavy concern over season ticket holders.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 16, 2024, 03:20:38 PMBuffalo was undefeated and ranked. It wasn't casuals knowing Buffalo was good. I'm taking the under on Dayton being top-14 and the over on losses at zero.
It's pretty much a once in a lifetime situation to get a buy game level opponent like Buffalo or Dayton to be undefeated and top-15. We're not adding STHs because they see Dayton and think "I gotta see that!"
Buffalo didn't add any STHs. And thats okay because that's not how STHs get added. They get added by the team being consistently good. We're at a record for STHs and that will continue as long as we are at this level.
What Buffalo added was some single ticket buyers and those 1. Do not make or break a program 2. Are just as likely to know that Dayton is a quality non con opponet that they were that Buffalo was.
Or we could use a pass/fail system?
Did our non conference performance put us in a position to make the NCAA tournament and get a high seed if we perform well in conference?
Pass
Quote from: MuMark on December 16, 2024, 06:52:56 PMOr we could use a pass/fail system?
Did our non conference performance put us in a position to make the NCAA tournament and get a high seed if we perform well in conference?
Pass
Fail because we're hosting Dayton at home next season.
Quote from: K1 Lover on December 16, 2024, 03:32:33 PMHonest question. Do you work for Marquette's ticket office? I'm trying to understand why you have such heavy concern over season ticket holders.
Because we should act like a big boy program, not a mid-major. We're not UW-Milwaukee or even DePaul. This series is zero gain. You win, you're supposed to. You lose, you hand them at at-large bid that potentially hurts the Big East by shrinking the field. In the return, again, no gain. People aren't going out of their way for that game unless there's an unusual circumstance, and you have to win.
This is why we don't give home games to UW-Green Bay or Milwaukee anymore. Dayton isn't Gonzaga or even San Diego State. They are worthy of a buy game, nothing more.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 16, 2024, 08:15:55 PMBecause we should act like a big boy program, not a mid-major. We're not UW-Milwaukee or even DePaul. This series is zero gain. You win, you're supposed to. You lose, you hand them at at-large bid that potentially hurts the Big East by shrinking the field. In the return, again, no gain. People aren't going out of their way for that game unless there's an unusual circumstance, and you have to win.
This is why we don't give home games to UW-Green Bay or Milwaukee anymore. Dayton isn't Gonzaga or even San Diego State. They are worthy of a buy game, nothing more.
Dayton's not Milwaukee or Green Bay.
Dayton was already getting an at large bid.
There was no downside at all. Win? Q1 road win. Lose? Selection committee won't even blink at a Q1 road loss.
Dropped us so far that we're in the top 10 of human polls and computer metrics.
Quit acting like we're above playing a very good team. Pretending they're Milwaukee because they play in a 3 bid league (the same amount of bids the BE has last year and may have again this year) while ignoring they won a Tourney game last year and will be favored to do so again this year is crazy.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 16, 2024, 08:15:55 PMPeople aren't going out of their way for that game unless there's an unusual circumstance, and you have to win.
There's a very small percentage of people in the market for MU tickets and those that are know who Dayton is and would understand that it is a high level game. It's especially more of a draw next year since we lost to them this year. Hell, I'm already excited to attend the game next year and get payback on them.
If they are nothing more than a worthy buy game, then why are they getting invited to prominent MTEs like Maui and Atlantis? Why aren't those tournaments inviting the bottom half of the high majors instead?
Quote from: wadesworld on December 16, 2024, 08:39:50 PMQuit acting like we're above playing a very good team. Pretending they're Milwaukee because they play in a 3 bid league (the same amount of bids the BE has last year and may have again this year) while ignoring they won a Tourney game last year and will be favored to do so again this year is crazy.
I'm not saying we're above playing them. If they want to be a buy game like George Mason, fine. But yes, we are above H/H with A10 teams. Which has been Marquette's policy for over a decade.
Unless we think UDPride was right...
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 16, 2024, 08:15:55 PMBecause we should act like a big boy program, not a mid-major. We're not UW-Milwaukee or even DePaul. This series is zero gain. You win, you're supposed to. You lose, you hand them at at-large bid that potentially hurts the Big East by shrinking the field. In the return, again, no gain. People aren't going out of their way for that game unless there's an unusual circumstance, and you have to win.
This is why we don't give home games to UW-Green Bay or Milwaukee anymore. Dayton isn't Gonzaga or even San Diego State. They are worthy of a buy game, nothing more.
Thanks for answering. Though that didn't answer my question on why STH sales specifically are such a big deal for you - unless it relates to the conversation you mentioned you previously had with the athletic department.
In any case, you make a great point and I believe what you're saying is valid. Though it's not as large of an issue to me (at least not yet), I agree I'd rather have Dayton and the rest of the A10 stay right where they are. Dayton was good/beneficial competition for us and probably will be again next year. But the last thing the Big East needs is more reason for others to think we're closer to a mid-major conference than a high-major one. So to that end, I'm with you.
I care about program perception. There's a reason VCU has a clause in their contract that you have to play at Siegel if you poach their coach. Because no high major with an iota of sense goes there voluntarily.
Is VCU our next H/H because of Shaka's connection there? Should we give one to Bradley out of respect for Brian Wardle? Those are Q1 games right now too.
The answer to those should be no, just like it should be no to Drake, UC Irvine, and North Texas. Because playing those games as series can only hurt you. The A10, American, MVC, Big West, WCC, MWC, MAC, those are all leagues that we should only see in non-con as buy games or MTEs. That's it.
Saturday is the exact reason why teams like us don't play games like that, nor should we.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 16, 2024, 10:21:51 PMI care about program perception. There's a reason VCU has a clause in their contract that you have to play at Siegel if you poach their coach. Because no high major with an iota of sense goes there voluntarily.
Is VCU our next H/H because of Shaka's connection there? Should we give one to Bradley out of respect for Brian Wardle? Those are Q1 games right now too.
The answer to those should be no, just like it should be no to Drake, UC Irvine, and North Texas. Because playing those games as series can only hurt you. The A10, American, MVC, Big West, WCC, MWC, MAC, those are all leagues that we should only see in non-con as buy games or MTEs. That's it.
Saturday is the exact reason why teams like us don't play games like that, nor should we.
All that you wrote could be said of Gonzaga over the years. Mark Few had the brass balls to take on the Big Boys and the little school from Spokane became known for a lot more than their funny sounding name.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 16, 2024, 10:21:51 PMI care about program perception. There's a reason VCU has a clause in their contract that you have to play at Siegel if you poach their coach. Because no high major with an iota of sense goes there voluntarily.
Is VCU our next H/H because of Shaka's connection there? Should we give one to Bradley out of respect for Brian Wardle? Those are Q1 games right now too.
The answer to those should be no, just like it should be no to Drake, UC Irvine, and North Texas. Because playing those games as series can only hurt you. The A10, American, MVC, Big West, WCC, MWC, MAC, those are all leagues that we should only see in non-con as buy games or MTEs. That's it.
Saturday is the exact reason why teams like us don't play games like that, nor should we.
Brilliant, have a reply.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on December 16, 2024, 10:27:58 PMAll that you wrote could be said of Gonzaga over the years. Mark Few had the brass balls to take on the Big Boys and the little school from Spokane became known for a lot more than their funny sounding name.
When Dayton goes to 9 straight Sweet 16s with two Final Fours along the way, get back to me. Until then, they are closer to Bradley than Gonzaga.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 16, 2024, 10:33:36 PMWhen Dayton goes to 9 straight Sweet 16s with two Final Fours along the way, get back to me. Until then, they are closer to Bradley than Gonzaga.
My point was that Gonzaga's scheduling boldly is the way to go. I'm confused by your response. Maybe I was not clear. Mea culpa.
What's wrong with Bradley
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 16, 2024, 10:21:51 PMI care about program perception. There's a reason VCU has a clause in their contract that you have to play at Siegel if you poach their coach. Because no high major with an iota of sense goes there voluntarily.
Is VCU our next H/H because of Shaka's connection there? Should we give one to Bradley out of respect for Brian Wardle? Those are Q1 games right now too.
The answer to those should be no, just like it should be no to Drake, UC Irvine, and North Texas. Because playing those games as series can only hurt you. The A10, American, MVC, Big West, WCC, MWC, MAC, those are all leagues that we should only see in non-con as buy games or MTEs. That's it.
Saturday is the exact reason why teams like us don't play games like that, nor should we.
To be honest. I've seen way more chatter about it being a cool thing that Marquette played at Dayton than people saying anything negative about MU losing.
Should we do this every year? No. But it's fine to schedule home and homes with good teams. If Shaka would rather play at Dayton because he thinks it's better for this team than playing Dayton at home or at Nebraska, then we should do that.
If MU keeps having seasons like they've been having nobody is going to think they are a lesser program for the occasional mid major home and home.
And yeah, if Shaka wants to play a home and home with VCU bc he values his time there then I'd support that too.
Brew I agree with you in general that we should not be scheduling H/H with A10 schools. I am convinced that either something fell through with another major opponent OR something else happened (Shaka connection to the school or to Grant) that lead this to be the best option. If they told you they were going to avoid this in May, then something changed right?
But if you're going to schedule a mid-major, this is the one to schedule. A quality opponent and historic rival.
Finally I would love to schedule like a top program. I would love to fly over the country for neutral site games against the likes of Kansas and Gonzaga a couple times a year. But we're not yet at that level. Hope we can be.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on December 16, 2024, 10:27:58 PMAll that you wrote could be said of Gonzaga over the years. Mark Few had the brass balls to take on the Big Boys and the little school from Spokane became known for a lot more than their funny sounding name.
...and once Few retires will Gonzaga be as successful? Just look at Nova; look at us during the 7-year run with Wojo.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on December 17, 2024, 07:36:22 AM...and once Few retires will Gonzaga be as successful? Just look at Nova; look at us during the 7-year run with Wojo.
I'm not seeing the relevance here at all. Whether Gonzaga, Villanova, or any other team declines after a coach leaves, the principle of scheduling as tough of a slate as possible-realizing that your team will likely get beat up in some games-is what I posted about. The departure of a very successful coach is a separate subject.
Edit: And I really do not understand the fairly common assumption that Gonzaga will collapse when Few retires. Why is it so difficult to believe that Gonzaga will be able to hire an "A-list" coach?
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 17, 2024, 04:14:23 AMBrew I agree with you in general that we should not be scheduling H/H with A10 schools. I am convinced that either something fell through with another major opponent OR something else happened (Shaka connection to the school or to Grant) that lead this to be the best option. If they told you they were going to avoid this in May, then something changed right?
But if you're going to schedule a mid-major, this is the one to schedule. A quality opponent and historic rival.
Finally I would love to schedule like a top program. I would love to fly over the country for neutral site games against the likes of Kansas and Gonzaga a couple times a year. But we're not yet at that level. Hope we can be.
NC State cancelled on us
Quote from: BM1090 on December 16, 2024, 11:39:56 PMTo be honest. I've seen way more chatter about it being a cool thing that Marquette played at Dayton than people saying anything negative about MU losing.
Should we do this every year? No. But it's fine to schedule home and homes with good teams. If Shaka would rather play at Dayton because he thinks it's better for this team than playing Dayton at home or at Nebraska, then we should do that.
If MU keeps having seasons like they've been having nobody is going to think they are a lesser program for the occasional mid major home and home.
And yeah, if Shaka wants to play a home and home with VCU bc he values his time there then I'd support that too.
agreed. I feel like folks are stuck on Dayton being a 'mid major'. I don't see Dayton as that, even if most of their conference mates are mid majors. Is Butler a mid major over conferenced in the BE? Was Creighton a mid that has elevated by way of the BE out of mid-major status? I think HH with programs such as Dayton, VCU, even Drake, are a lot more interest catching than one-offs vs the likes of Ark Pine Bluff, Stonehill etc. Heck, since we'll inevitably play some mids in the NC, I'd toss Green Bay/ Gottlieb a bone and sign a 3 yr deal...2 at FF and 1 at Resch, and Doug talks MU on his national FOX radio show everyday for a week preceding the game!
Quote from: Newsdreams on December 17, 2024, 08:26:58 AMNC State cancelled on us
That is kinda what I heard as well. And if that's the case, then I really can't fault Marquette for doing the H/H with Dayton. But I do agree with brew that these arrangements with A10 schools, or any other mid-major, should not be a thing.
Quote from: Viper on December 17, 2024, 08:33:08 AMagreed. I feel like folks are stuck on Dayton being a 'mid major'. I don't see Dayton as that, even if most of their conference mates are mid majors. Is Butler a mid major over conferenced in the BE? Was Creighton a mid that has elevated by way of the BE out of mid-major status? I think HH with programs such as Dayton, VCU, even Drake, are a lot more interest catching than one-offs vs the likes of Ark Pine Bluff, Stonehill etc. Heck, since we'll inevitably play some mids in the NC, I'd toss Green Bay/ Gottlieb a bone and sign a 3 yr deal...2 at FF and 1 at Resch, and Doug talks MU on his national FOX radio show everyday for a week preceding the game!
Sorry but this just isn't smart scheduling. There is no way we should be playing Dayton, VCU or Drake regularly. Butler and Creighton automatically are better for our schedule because they are in the BE and play BE opponents. Dayton, VCU and Drake have to deal with the likes of LaSalle, St. Joes and Murry State as conference members.
And Gottlieb isn't going to be in Green Bay in three years - not to mention no one cares what he says anyway.
Sounds like it was either a H+H with a top tier mid major, which Dayton is, or another buy game. Given that the Beast is down, grabbing another Q1 game seems like a fine decision to me. Don't expect or think it will become the norm, but considering the circumstances we could have done much worse.
Hopefully in future years our nonconf is just Stonehill at MU 11 times
Quote from: Jay Bee on December 17, 2024, 09:51:04 AMHopefully in future years our nonconf is just Stonehill at MU 11 times
Only won 10 of the 11 games by 40.
F.
Quote from: Jay Bee on December 17, 2024, 09:51:04 AMHopefully in future years our nonconf is just Stonehill at MU 11 times
Won't cover
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on December 17, 2024, 07:41:50 AMI'm not seeing the relevance here at all. Whether Gonzaga, Villanova, or any other team declines after a coach leaves, the principle of scheduling as tough of a slate as possible-realizing that your team will likely get beat up in some games-is what I posted about. The departure of a very successful coach is a separate subject.
Edit: And I really do not understand the fairly common assumption that Gonzaga will collapse when Few retires. Why is it so difficult to believe that Gonzaga will be able to hire an "A-list" coach?
GU has already named top assistant Brian Michaelson as the "coach in waiting," assuming he does not bolt for another job as Tommy Lloyd did.
https://collegehoopstoday.net/rothstein-files/mark-few-brian-michaelson-will-be-next-head-coach-at-gonzaga/
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 16, 2024, 03:32:20 PMHope we add Wake Forest or Nebraska next year
#118 Wake Forest? Let's add #190 Boston College while we're at it. They did just beat mighty Stonehill by 4 and have a solid average attendance of 3900/game in an 8600 seat arena. Minnesota is a good regional rivalry, they're coming in at #169 in the NET. They're such a better opponent than #23 Dayton ever will be. Maybe Big 12 power Central Florida so we can play in a 70% full arena would be a better game and drive attendance when they come back to Milwaukee the following year.
Michigan State has played road games at Loyola Chicago, the Citadel, Bradley, Wright State (they lost that game the year they won the national championship) and Samford. Nobody is questioning their status as a high major. In fact, Izzo schedules those games because they provide a hostile environment that prepares them for Big Ten play.
Yeah literally every national basketball podcast I've listened to has praised Shaka for scheduling this game. If you're concerned with the "perception of the program," this certainly didn't hurt it, outside of MUScoop.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 17, 2024, 11:27:24 AM#118 Wake Forest? Let's add #190 Boston College while we're at it. They did just beat mighty Stonehill by 4 and have a solid average attendance of 3900/game in an 8600 seat arena. Minnesota is a good regional rivalry, they're coming in at #169 in the NET. They're such a better opponent than #23 Dayton ever will be. Maybe Big 12 power Central Florida so we can play in a 70% full arena would be a better game and drive attendance when they come back to Milwaukee the following year.
Michigan State has played road games at Loyola Chicago, the Citadel, Bradley, Wright State (they lost that game the year they won the national championship) and Samford. Nobody is questioning their status as a high major. In fact, Izzo schedules those games because they provide a hostile environment that prepares them for Big Ten play.
I'm all for adding an excellent Jesuit institution to our schedule
Quote from: Newsdreams on December 17, 2024, 02:12:47 PMI'm all for adding an excellent Jesuit institution to our schedule
We jesuits should collectively beat the B1G and SEC to the punch and preemptively secede from the NCAA. BC can stay.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 17, 2024, 08:49:43 AMSorry but this just isn't smart scheduling. There is no way we should be playing Dayton, VCU or Drake regularly. Butler and Creighton automatically are better for our schedule because they are in the BE and play BE opponents. Dayton, VCU and Drake have to deal with the likes of LaSalle, St. Joes and Murry State as conference members.
And Gottlieb isn't going to be in Green Bay in three years - not to mention no one cares what he says anyway.
I like the Gottlieb outside the box hire. Will it work? Rimming. I don't care who Dayton has to 'deal with' within their conf. Play em.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 17, 2024, 02:32:10 PMWe jesuits should collectively beat the B1G and SEC to the punch and preemptively secede from the NCAA. BC can stay.
We started by beating the easily top 2 B1G team
Quote from: Newsdreams on December 17, 2024, 02:12:47 PMI'm all for adding an excellent Jesuit institution to our schedule
Santa Clara? Loyola Marymount? Loyola Chicago? SLU? St. Joe's? Let's go get Fairfield and Holy Cross too.
I know NC State cancelled; they announced their H/H with Kansas in late May. The thing is, Baylor and Arkansas didn't agree terms on their neutral site game until August. We were in The Bahamas at the same time Baylor was. Most programs didn't announced non-con schedules until July and many of these were being finalized in June. There were other agreements still being negotiated well after NC State fell through. Play Baylor at a neutral, start a H/H on the road with Arkansas, or any of the other programs out there that were still finishing schedules.
In addition, there are always higher quality buy game options that struggle to get games, think about how many times mid-major coaches complain "no one will play us." Get that as a buy game and negotiate a better H/H the following year.
When there are 68 high-majors in other leagues and 282 mid-majors that weren't on their schedule, I'm skeptical that giving up a home game to play Dayton was the only option, and certainly not the best.
Quote from: Viper on December 17, 2024, 02:36:00 PMI like the Gottlieb outside the box hire. Will it work? Rimming. I don't care who Dayton has to 'deal with' within their conf. Play em.
You should care who Dayton has to deal with. It hampers their NET rating, which in turn hampers ours. And that matters for selection and seeding.
And we will see about Gottleib. So far looks over his head but who knows.
As a fan (and if I were a head coach), I'm willing to "give up" a game against Lindenwood to play a Q1 road game when I have a team that I think can compete for a BE title and make a deep tournament run. I'd rather have a game that prepares me for those things than one that brings in a half empty Fiserv Forum, even if I get all the ticket sales from season tickets.
And fans seem to agree, considering the all important season ticket sales are at a record high, even with one less home game to go play at Dayton.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 17, 2024, 03:13:50 PMAs a fan (and if I were a head coach), I'm willing to "give up" a game against Lindenwood to play a Q1 road game when I have a team that I think can compete for a BE title and make a deep tournament run. I'd rather have a game that prepares me for those things than one that brings in a half empty Fiserv Forum, even if I get all the ticket sales from season tickets.
And fans seem to agree, considering the all important season ticket sales are at a record high, even with one less home game to go play at Dayton.
I don't know how anyone could argue with this. But several pages of back and forth here already have proven me to be wrong.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 17, 2024, 03:44:51 PMI don't know how anyone could argue with this. But several pages of back and forth here already have proven me to be wrong.
Well as of right now, 92% seems to agree, 2% are clearly trolls, and one person is giving major "old man yells at clouds" vibes. Considering I'm not sure you could get 92% of Scoop to agree that the sky is blue, I'd take this as a win.
To me this is relatively simple,
Does playing an A10 team on any given year, where we don't know the talent they'll have, have equal or more upside than playing a major opponent? No. Could it potentially? Of course, the A10s about as respectable a mid major conference can get but even if it's a good year and this year it's likely fine, but if Dayton gets hit with injury bug their numbers bottom out much faster than say Georgia or Maryland they're a Toppin or Holmes twisted ankle in previous years from Ls to places like Duquesne and Lasalle. That's why Brew's saying it's risky and we shouldn't play them.
There's also the thumbing your nose at the mid majors which I find a bit funny but only because somewhere UDPride or Fieldhouse are definitely reading it and flipping out.
From a marketing perspective, is there an emotional element for alumni from >55yrs ago? Yes. Is there likely a friends and family overlap in the stakeholder bodies that creates some extra fun? Yes. From that side it's a fine game to schedule.
To me, it's a fine game but they likely could've scheduled a safer alternative but people who care more about Dayton seem to be happy so there's that. I'll personally wait for Loyola Chi.
Funny that this conversation is still going because both "sides" are right, really.
Dayton being on our schedule this year was a good thing since they were great competition for us and the loss should ultimately help us in the long run. I'd MUCH rather have a tournament-level team expose our flaws during the non-con than in March. But from now, we definitely shouldn't have H&Hs with mid-majors that aren't guaranteed to offer the same competition Dayton did. It won't help us or the Big East.
I have a feeling Shaka's learned from this and seriously doubt we'll need to have a conversation like this again in the future. At least I hope not.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 17, 2024, 02:53:28 PMSanta Clara? Loyola Marymount? Loyola Chicago? SLU? St. Joe's? Let's go get Fairfield and Holy Cross too.
I'm ok with Boston College
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 17, 2024, 02:53:28 PMSanta Clara? Loyola Marymount? Loyola Chicago? SLU? St. Joe's? Let's go get Fairfield and Holy Cross too.
Don't forget Zags, Detroit, Seattle, San Fran, canisius, Loyola Maryland, st Peter's, fordham, and le Moyne
Add them to our big east Jesuit mafia and form the NJCAA... middle finger to BC. We're almost guaranteed a final four every year!
Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 17, 2024, 09:18:14 PMAdd them to our big east Jesuit mafia and form the NJCAA
The National Junior College Athletic Association would like a word...
The proper Marquette grade is AB.
Quote from: Viper on December 17, 2024, 08:33:08 AMagreed. I feel like folks are stuck on Dayton being a 'mid major'. I don't see Dayton as that, even if most of their conference mates are mid majors. Is Butler a mid major over conferenced in the BE? Was Creighton a mid that has elevated by way of the BE out of mid-major status? I think HH with programs such as Dayton, VCU, even Drake, are a lot more interest catching than one-offs vs the likes of Ark Pine Bluff, Stonehill etc. Heck, since we'll inevitably play some mids in the NC, I'd toss Green Bay/ Gottlieb a bone and sign a 3 yr deal...2 at FF and 1 at Resch, and Doug talks MU on his national FOX radio show everyday for a week preceding the game!
I'm sure it doesn't need to be said, but I'm glad you're not in charge of scheduling.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 17, 2024, 03:11:33 PMYou should care who Dayton has to deal with. It hampers their NET rating, which in turn hampers ours. And that matters for selection and seeding.
And we will see about Gottleib. So far looks over his head but who knows.
if Dayton has a strong season...which they will, our loss at their place does not hurt us. On the other hand, I'd agree with you if you said there was nothing to gain by Alabama traveling to Grand Forks to play North Dakota...winning by only seven.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 18, 2024, 03:26:35 PMI'm sure it doesn't need to be said, but I'm glad you're not in charge of scheduling.
you win the useless comment of this thread award. Congrats.