Whoops. Not your average, ordinary, murder or murderer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 09, 2024, 07:14:48 PM??
I think he is suggesting that there are a lot of people that either outwardly, or inwardly, think that Luigi killing a healthcare exec isn't that bad, so they will find it difficult to convict.
I think there are a surprisingly large number of people that do think that, but that is disgusting. This was a cold blooded murder.
The man can't win. Buys another mansion and then there are all these fcking ghosts in it.
I'll be honest, when I heard the sentence "Italian guy who posts about Fleshlights and Tenga eggs is arrested at McDonalds" I assumed it was Willie
Quote from: Apolitical Warrior on December 09, 2024, 08:54:15 PMThe man can't win. Buys another mansion and then there are all these fcking ghosts in it.
All those ground pounds created a preexisting condition in his back
Quote from: Apolitical Warrior on December 09, 2024, 08:54:15 PMThe man can't win. Buys another mansion and then there are all these fcking ghosts in it.
Daisy was a win.
You think Daisy is visiting him in prison? Get fcking real. Daisy is moving onto Waluigi tomorrow.
Quote from: Apolitical Warrior on December 09, 2024, 09:18:14 PMYou think Daisy is visiting him in prison? Get fcking real. Daisy is moving onto Waluigi tomorrow.
If you had asked me which Mario character had a 3d printed gun I would have said Waluigi. You think you know someone...
Quote from: forgetful on December 09, 2024, 08:51:34 PMI think he is suggesting that there are a lot of people that either outwardly, or inwardly, think that Luigi killing a healthcare exec isn't that bad, so they will find it difficult to convict.
I think there are a surprisingly large number of people that do think that, but that is disgusting. This was a cold blooded murder.
Meh, the guy he killed had just approved using ai to auto deny claims. Could you imagine the pain and suffering you may have to go through because a robot denied your claim for meds?
Quote from: #UnleashSean on December 09, 2024, 09:25:02 PMMeh, the guy he killed had just approved using ai to auto deny claims. Could you imagine the pain and suffering you may have to go through because a robot denied your claim for meds?
Murder is wrong, but I'm also surprised this is the first insurance ceo murder. Especially in healthcare, insurance carriers aren't adding value to the system, just introducing pain and suffering.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 09, 2024, 10:00:14 PMMurder is wrong, but I'm also surprised this is the first insurance ceo murder. Especially in healthcare, insurance carriers aren't adding value to the system, just introducing pain and suffering.
Really bold statement.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 09, 2024, 10:00:14 PMMurder is wrong, but I'm also surprised this is the first insurance ceo murder. Especially in healthcare, insurance carriers aren't adding value to the system, just introducing pain and suffering.
Are assassinations of evil people wrong? Like if you could take out hitler would you? I'm guessing this guy had a much lower threshold for the evil he considers justified to take out. It's a bit different than a gang shooting or killing over jealousy or Ted bundy etc.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 09, 2024, 10:51:46 PMAre assassinations of evil people wrong? Like if you could take out hitler would you? I'm guessing this guy had a much lower threshold for the evil he considers justified to take out. It's a bit different than a gang shooting or killing over jealousy or Ted bundy etc.
That's a philosophical question routed in the ideas of morality, and the problem is that throughout history, the worst aspect of humanity involve both groups thinking that they are morally justified for their actions.
So if you permit one act of violence because you find it morally Just, then those that disagree with you will believe that they are Just in retaliating.
It is cleaner to say that murder is wrong, and assassinations are wrong, as they are both extrajudicial actions.
But that's just my worthless opinion.
Quote from: Jockey on December 09, 2024, 10:43:59 PMReally bold statement.
I choose to believe that this is a wonderful pun
Vigilante justice is wrong, murder is wrong.
Muggsy, this guy saw what to him was an ultimately evil person and introduced him to darkness.
Quote from: 4 Falling Turds on December 09, 2024, 09:04:17 PMI'll be honest, when I heard the sentence "Italian guy who posts about Fleshlights and Tenga eggs is arrested at McDonalds" I assumed it was Willie
He's Albanian...Luigi I mean. I have no idea what willie is.
Murder is wrong. Vigilante justice is wrong.
However people are using the victim as a symbol for what they find is bad about the health care industry in this country. People using others' misfortunes as symbols for things they dislike is hardly new.
Anyway, don't want this to head off into politics so I will stop there.
I think there are a number of healthcare-related folks that would be ahead of this guy in terms of pure evil.
The Sackler family, for example. They are responsible for literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions of deaths. Purdue Pharma relentlessly pushed for the prescribing of high doses of their opioids knowing full well how addictive they were.
If you want some enraging source material, read Empire of Pain. Disgusting.
Maybe we put a Top 10 list out there and see what happens
Quote from: warriorchick on December 10, 2024, 08:18:19 AMI think there are a number of healthcare-related folks that would be ahead of this guy in terms of pure evil.
The Sackler family, for example. They are responsible for literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions of deaths. Purdue Pharma relentlessly pushed for the prescribing of high doses of their opioids knowing full well how addictive they were.
If you want some enraging source material, read Empire of Pain. Disgusting.
Or if TV is more your medium, watch Dopesick. A truly disgusting family
Quote from: tower912 on December 10, 2024, 06:05:31 AMVigilante justice is wrong, murder is wrong.
Muggsy, this guy saw what to him was an ultimately evil person and introduced him to darkness.
You can't just go out and murder people Tower without any repercussions. There are definitely people that are pure evil and must be erased but I think that's a separate topic.
You are contradicting yourself.
Quote from: warriorchick on December 10, 2024, 08:18:19 AMI think there are a number of healthcare-related folks that would be ahead of this guy in terms of pure evil.
The Sackler family, for example. They are responsible for literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions of deaths. Purdue Pharma relentlessly pushed for the prescribing of high doses of their opioids knowing full well how addictive they were.
If you want some enraging source material, read Empire of Pain. Disgusting.
Thank you for the recommendation.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 10, 2024, 08:54:30 AMYou can't just go out and murder people Tower without any repercussions. There are definitely people that are pure evil and must be erased but I think that's a separate topic.
Assassins (and those who attempt assassinations) always think they are doing the right thing by trying to erase "pure evil." I'll stop there, lest this veer into politics.
I was amused that BCBS immediately retracted their plan to limit anesthesia during procedures the day after the murder.
Quote from: tower912 on December 10, 2024, 08:58:56 AMYou are contradicting yourself.
I make distinctions within the scumbag/ pure evil categories. Anyway, I think Luigi thought he wasn't going to get caught.
Quote from: MU82 on December 10, 2024, 09:04:52 AMAssassins (and those who attempt assassinations) always think they are doing the right thing by trying to erase "pure evil." I'll stop there, lest this veer into politics.
Bronson and Denzel did the right thing.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 10, 2024, 08:24:40 AMOr if TV is more your medium, watch Dopesick. A truly disgusting family
Painkiller on Netflix is also an excellent look into not just the Sackler family but the industry as a whole, especially the use of young, good-looking people as pharmaceutical reps. My dad was a physician and many of the males who were drug reps were former D1 college athletes.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 10, 2024, 09:06:37 AMI make distinctions within the scumbag/ pure evil categories. Anyway, I think Luigi thought he wasn't going to get caught.
Ivy Leaguers can be the dumbest smart kids. Why the guy wasn't in Nicaragua or Cuba by now I'll never now. His picture was out there and he stuck around the Northeast?
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 10, 2024, 09:29:34 AMPainkiller on Netflix is also an excellent look into not just the Sackler family but the industry as a whole, especially the use of young, good-looking people as pharmaceutical reps. My dad was a physician and many of the males who were drug reps were former D1 college athletes.
That's just sales positions in general. People buy from people they like. People like folks that are conventionally attractive or people they relate to (same age, social status, background, etc).
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 10, 2024, 09:06:37 AMI make distinctions within the scumbag/ pure evil categories. Anyway, I think Luigi thought he wasn't going to get caught.
Why? I think he clearly wanted to get caught. The dude was eating in a public restaurant and had the gun, silencer, and fake ID he used at the hostel still on him. He had plenty of time to flee across the boarder and board a plane from there, and certainly to ditch any evidence. But he had it on him.
A guy who is smart enough to graduate from UPenn with a masters in computer science is smart enough to know there are cameras everywhere, especially in NYC.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 10, 2024, 09:29:34 AMPainkiller on Netflix is also an excellent look into not just the Sackler family but the industry as a whole, especially the use of young, good-looking people as pharmaceutical reps. My dad was a physician and many of the males who were drug reps were former D1 college athletes.
Pro tip - if you're playing in a scramble, put your money on the team with the pharmaceutical sales reps. I've attended quite a few fund raisers for non-profit healthcare clients. The teams with the pharm reps always win.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 10, 2024, 10:03:59 AMWhy? I think he clearly wanted to get caught. The dude was eating in a public restaurant and had the gun, silencer, and fake ID he used at the hostel still on him. He had plenty of time to flee across the boarder and board a plane from there, and certainly to ditch any evidence. But he had it on him.
A guy who is smart enough to graduate from UPenn with a masters in computer science is smart enough to know there are cameras everywhere, especially in NYC.
Not to mention he had the smarts to plan and time the whole thing perfectly and flee.
Clearly didn't care about being caught down the line.
He
Yeah pretty sure this guy is making an example / martyr of himself for various reasons.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 10, 2024, 09:29:34 AMPainkiller on Netflix is also an excellent look into not just the Sackler family but the industry as a whole, especially the use of young, good-looking people as pharmaceutical reps. My dad was a physician and many of the males who were drug reps were former D1 college athletes.
Or hot former sorority girls.
Quote from: warriorchick on December 10, 2024, 01:25:19 PMOr hot former sorority girls.
yeah, that's what they showed in Painkillers. I don't remember any of the reps my dad met with being females. A lot of former D1 football and men's basketball players always wearing their conference title or bowl rings (I remember him calling me to tell me one former D1 hoops player played at my HS after my family had moved away).
Suites for professional games (including playoffs), private shopping at a high end butcher shop, and a hunting trip to a private camp/game preserve were some of the more elaborate benefits I remember my dad telling me about. There was nothing like hearing a pitch for Xzghiidosre or whatever med the dude was selling during the first intermission of a Stanley Cup playoff game. LOL!
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 10, 2024, 02:35:57 PMyeah, that's what they showed in Painkillers. I don't remember any of the reps my dad met with being females. A lot of former D1 football and men's basketball players always wearing their conference title or bowl rings (I remember him calling me to tell me one former D1 hoops player played at my HS after my family had moved away).
Suites for professional games (including playoffs), private shopping at a high end butcher shop, and a hunting trip to a private camp/game preserve were some of the more elaborate benefits I remember my dad telling me about. There was nothing like hearing a pitch for Xzghiidosre or whatever med the dude was selling during the first intermission of a Stanley Cup playoff game. LOL!
Can't outright give the providers money so gotta give gifts!
Quote from: wadesworld on December 10, 2024, 10:03:59 AMA guy who is smart enough to graduate from UPenn
Based on a small sample size I've determined one doesn't have to be a genius to graduate from there.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 10, 2024, 04:10:35 PMBased on a small sample size I've determined one doesn't have to be a genius to graduate from there.
Hallelujah
Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 10, 2024, 04:10:35 PMBased on a small sample size I've determined one doesn't have to be a genius to graduate from there.
You have to be pretty dang smart to be able to get into the school.
And yes, it of course helps to have parents who went to an Ivy League school and who have money. But you still need to do well in school.
Going to prison for a lengthy sentence doesn't seem too smart. Although I suppose he could plead insanity.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 10, 2024, 05:21:46 PMGoing to prison for a lengthy sentence doesn't seem too smart. Although I suppose he could plead insanity.
Most CEO's should be in jail, too
Perhaps you can arrange rounding them up, as well as other Americans, and charge them with rapacity?
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 10, 2024, 05:30:28 PMPerhaps you can arrange rounding them up, as well as other Americans, and charge them with rapacity?
Would be my pleasure, especially Health and Insurance execs. No mercy
Healthcare in this country is the tits compared to what this ass hole will get at the Graybar Hotel, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 10, 2024, 05:40:26 PMHealthcare in this country is the tits compared to what this ass hole will get at the Graybar Hotel, aina?
Hahahaha, the American healthcare system. 😂😂😂
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 10, 2024, 05:32:10 PMWould be my pleasure, especially Health and Insurance execs. No mercy
Maybe you can snag Luigi's family as well?
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 10, 2024, 06:24:35 PMMaybe you can snag Luigi's family as well?
Fo' sho, it's eat the rich season
Quote from: wadesworld on December 10, 2024, 10:03:59 AMWhy? I think he clearly wanted to get caught. The dude was eating in a public restaurant and had the gun, silencer, and fake ID he used at the hostel still on him. He had plenty of time to flee across the boarder and board a plane from there, and certainly to ditch any evidence. But he had it on him.
A guy who is smart enough to graduate from UPenn with a masters in computer science is smart enough to know there are cameras everywhere, especially in NYC.
If he really wanted to be caught why didn't he turn himself in? Why did he run from the scene, jump on an electric bike and head for a bus station and end up in Altoona? Why? Because that was part of his "genius" (lol) plan.
Just because he got good grades and scored well on standardized tests doesn't mean he has any common sense.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 10, 2024, 06:51:34 PMIf he really wanted to be caught why didn't he turn himself in? Why did he run from the scene, jump on an electric bike and head for a bus station and end up in Altoona? Why? Because that was part of his "genius" (lol) plan.
Just because he got good grades and scored well on standardized tests doesn't mean he has any common sense.
He needed to find more Monopoly money? Or a better mask?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 10, 2024, 06:51:34 PMIf he really wanted to be caught why didn't he turn himself in? Why did he run from the scene, jump on an electric bike and head for a bus station and end up in Altoona? Why? Because that was part of his "genius" (lol) plan.
Just because he got good grades and scored well on standardized tests doesn't mean he has any common sense.
He enjoys the attention. I don't care if he went to UPenn or MATC. If you don't want to be caught, you probably aren't carrying the gun, silencer, and fake IDs you used to murder someone 5 days prior around with you.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 10, 2024, 07:06:20 PMHe enjoys the attention. I don't care if he went to UPenn or MATC. If you don't want to be caught, you probably aren't carrying the gun, silencer, and fake IDs you used to murder someone 5 days prior around with you.
Not wanting to get caught and actually having a plan not to get caught are two separate issues.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 10, 2024, 07:09:34 PMNot wanting to get caught and actually having a plan not to get caught are two separate issues.
He was carrying a manifesto on him. Like someone in this thread said, he thinks of himself as some kind of martyr for a cause.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 10, 2024, 07:06:20 PMHe enjoys the attention. I don't care if he went to UPenn or MATC. If you don't want to be caught, you probably aren't carrying the gun, silencer, and fake IDs you used to murder someone 5 days prior around with you.
Common sense: People who want to be caught turn themselves in or remain at the scene. People who want to escape run, (i.e., escape). Just because his escape was haphazard (stupid, lacking cohesion, whatever) doesn't mean it wasn't an attempt to escape. Without a doubt it was.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 10, 2024, 07:35:21 PMCommon sense: People who want to be caught turn themselves in or remain at the scene. People who want to escape run, (i.e., escape). Just because his escape was haphazard (stupid, lacking cohesion, whatever) doesn't mean it wasn't an attempt to escape. Without a doubt it was.
People who want to get away with murder don't carry around their manifesto admitting to what they did, giving their motive, etc., as well as the murder weapon and a plethora of other evidence almost a week after the murder.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 10, 2024, 07:37:07 PMPeople who want to get away with murder don't carry around their manifesto admitting to what they did, giving their motive, etc., as well as the murder weapon and a plethora of other evidence almost a week after the murder.
Manifesto isn't what he was carrying. It was like a 300-word essay. Media sensationalizing it, along with law enforcement.
The unibomber had a manifesto. But was significantly smarter. He actually was a genius by all accounts.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 10, 2024, 07:43:48 PMThe unibomber had a manifesto. But was significantly smarter. He actually was a genius by all accounts.
We could use some smart anarchists
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 10, 2024, 07:44:42 PMWe could use some smart anarchists
The Unibomber didn't care for people from what I've read.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 10, 2024, 07:37:07 PMPeople who want to get away with murder don't carry around their manifesto admitting to what they did, giving their motive, etc., as well as the murder weapon and a plethora of other evidence almost a week after the murder.
Murderers are often stupid and do stupid things. Like committing murder. This idiot didn't concoct some great escape plan. That's why his escape route had him at a McDonalds in Altoona, Pa. But if you're fleeing the scene of your crime, that literally is an escape. Being dumb about it doesn't make it less so. Take the L.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 10, 2024, 07:43:48 PMThe unibomber had a manifesto. But was significantly smarter. He actually was a genius by all accounts.
Informed consent is a hell of a thing
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 10, 2024, 07:56:01 PMMurderers are often stupid and do stupid things. Like committing murder. This idiot didn't concoct some great escape plan. That's why his escape route had him at a McDonalds in Altoona, Pa. But if you're fleeing the scene of your crime, that literally is an escape. Being dumb about it doesn't make it less so. Take the L.
We are all taking the L these days with these dang premiums!
Quote from: 4 Falling Turds on December 10, 2024, 02:54:28 PMCan't outright give the providers money so gotta give gifts!
Or sponsor an all-expenses paid "conference" in some place like Scottsdale or Palm Springs which consists of a 2-hour sales pitch about the drug and then 2 1/2 days of golfing and steak dinners.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 10, 2024, 07:56:01 PMMurderers are often stupid and do stupid things. Like committing murder. This idiot didn't concoct some great escape plan. That's why his escape route had him at a McDonalds in Altoona, Pa. But if you're fleeing the scene of your crime, that literally is an escape. Being dumb about it doesn't make it less so. Take the L.
Lol. You know plenty about taking Ls.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 10, 2024, 07:37:07 PMPeople who want to get away with murder don't carry around their manifesto admitting to what they did, giving their motive, etc., as well as the murder weapon and a plethora of other evidence almost a week after the murder.
I think he is angling for an insanity defense. I think his outburst when being taken into the courtroom was part of that angle.
Quote from: forgetful on December 10, 2024, 08:03:22 PMI think he is angling for an insanity defense. I think his outburst when being taken into the courtroom was part of that angle.
We're in a post-insanity society
I heard he's covering for a manatee.
Quote"To the Feds, I'll keep this short, because I do respect what you do for our country. To save you a lengthy investigation, I state plainly that I wasn't working with anyone. This was fairly trivial: some elementary social engineering, basic CAD, a lot of patience. The spiral notebook, if present, has some straggling notes and To Do lists that illuminate the gist of it. My tech is pretty locked down because I work in engineering so probably not much info there. I do apologize for any strife of traumas but it had to be done. Frankly, these parasites simply had it coming. A reminder: the US has the #1 most expensive healthcare system in the world, yet we rank roughly #42 in life expectancy. United is the [indecipherable] largest company in the US by market cap, behind only Apple, Google, Walmart. It has grown and grown, but as our life expectancy? No the reality is, these [indecipherable] have simply gotten too powerful, and they continue to abuse our country for immense profit because the American public has allwed them to get away with it. Obviously the problem is more complex, but I do not have space, and frankly I do not pretend to be the most qualified person to lay out the full argument. But many have illuminated the corruption and greed (e.g.: Rosenthal, Moore), decades ago and the problems simply remain. It is not an issue of awareness at this point, but clearly power games at play. Evidently I am the first to face it with such brutal honesty."
Sounds like someone who thought he'd get away with murder.
Quote from: CreightonWarrior on December 10, 2024, 08:30:57 PMI heard he's covering for a manatee.
????? Manatees are never angry or unhinged.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 10, 2024, 08:02:13 PMLol. You know plenty about taking Ls.
I know plenty about a lot of things - many thanks for the kind words and for graciously admitting your mistake.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 10, 2024, 09:16:30 PMI know plenty about a lot of things - many thanks for the kind words and for graciously admitting your mistake.
You're right. That manifesto above seems like a guy who expected to get away with murder. To go along with the fact he was carrying all relevant evidence against him on himself days after the murder, including the murder weapon.
I know what you are but what am I
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 10, 2024, 09:29:34 AMPainkiller on Netflix is also an excellent look into not just the Sackler family but the industry as a whole, especially the use of young, good-looking people as pharmaceutical reps. My dad was a physician and many of the males who were drug reps were former D1 college athletes.
Empire of Pain is an excellent read.
I once represented a guy on a murder case where the only eyewitness could not id him despite the fact that he was an albino black guy with freckles. He was caught because he left his bond slip from another case and his birth certificate at the scene. Of course he wasn't valedictorian of his exclusive private high school either, but still...
Leoold and Loeb were caught because one of them dropped their prescription glasses with an unusual hinge at Wolf Lake. And they were brilliant students.
Even the smartest, most prepared, people usually overlook something.
To me, his written statement reads like he did not intend to be taken alive.
He was expecting to be found and taken either dead or alive. Obviously so. Because his goal was to make a point and serve as a symbol for his problems.
There really isn't much of a point otherwise.
The conspiracy theories on social media are...something.
They always are.
Quote from: BM1090 on December 11, 2024, 12:06:25 AMEmpire of Pain is an excellent read.
thanks. Sounds like a good read for the days off I have at the end of the month.
His family is only worth 55-60 million, so I can see why he was bitter about not having coverage for back surgery.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on December 11, 2024, 12:42:48 AMI once represented a guy on a murder case where the only eyewitness could not id him despite the fact that he was an albino black guy with freckles. He was caught because he left his bond slip from another case and his birth certificate at the scene. Of course he wasn't valedictorian of his exclusive private high school either, but still...
Leoold and Loeb were caught because one of them dropped their prescription glasses with an unusual hinge at Wolf Lake. And they were brilliant students.
Even the smartest, most prepared, people usually overlook something.
Exactly. Assuming that murderers or other criminals do stupid things that lead to their capture because they want to get caught is asinine. If this kid's goal was to be caught why was he 270 miles from the scene of the crime wearing a mask in a McDonald's? Was he afraid of Covid? And if his goal was to be killed why didn't he pull his gun when approached by police? I'm sure they would have obliged him. Want to get caught? Drop your gun and remain at the scene. Want to get killed? Don't drop your gun and remain at the scene. Not rocket science for such a "brilliant" young man.
What maximizes coverage. If you're caught right away, you get the ~weeks worth of coverage because the murder and apprehension overlap. If you disappear forever the murder gets the ~weeks worth of coverage. If you're caught after a week the murder gets it ~week coverage, the apprehension gets its ~weeks coverage, and you get the additional publicity when they release details about your background or there's a new mugshot, or a trial date is set, which wouldn't be the case if you were killed. It seems clear that he wanted to have the spotlight on him/United for as long as possible. This seems to accomplish that.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 11, 2024, 05:44:32 AMHe was expecting to be found and taken either dead or alive. Obviously so. Because his goal was to make a point and serve as a symbol for his problems.
There really isn't much of a point otherwise.
The only point made by shooting an unarmed complete stranger in the back is that you're a POS murderer. That people are paying attention to the shooter's opinions on the healthcare system or turning him into some sort of heroic figure is even more troubling than the cold blooded murder.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 11, 2024, 08:35:23 AMThe only point made by shooting an unarmed complete stranger in the back is that you're a POS murderer. That people are paying attention to the shooter's opinions on the healthcare system or turning him into some sort of heroic figure is even more troubling than the cold blooded murder.
Eh. We have a long history as a country of idolizing those who have used violence to push agendas - John Dillinger, Bernie Goetz, the Jehovah's Witness riots, etc. etc. etc. This is nothing new, and it will happen again.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 11, 2024, 08:35:23 AMThe only point made by shooting an unarmed complete stranger in the back is that you're a POS murderer. That people are paying attention to the shooter's opinions on the healthcare system or turning him into some sort of heroic figure is even more troubling than the cold blooded murder.
This, 100%. I saw a Twitter post with a guy showing a pic of his new tattoo of bullets with the words the dude wrote on the shells he shot the CEO with. WTF?
I think we can all agree, that's it is very important oligarchs of America get extra security moving forward. Their contributions to America have been immeasurable
The schmuck is nuts and I'm sure the best defense attorney money can buy will argue that in court. Oh, and the overprescribed pain meds made him do it, hey?
His name sounds like sommething that would be made up by within an SNL skit.
"Yeah, I have a boyfriend. He's Italian. His name is ... um ... uh ... Luigi! Luigi Mangione!"
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 11, 2024, 09:18:57 AMThis, 100%. I saw a Twitter post with a guy showing a pic of his new tattoo of bullets with the words the dude wrote on the shells he shot the CEO with. WTF?
We have DAs prosecuting and citizen's demanding the head of Good Samaritan heroes and citizens praising or making excuses for a cold blooded cowardly murderer. Sad.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 11, 2024, 09:59:25 AMThe schmuck is nuts and I'm sure the best defense attorney money can buy will argue that in court. Oh, and the overprescribed pain meds made him do it, hey?
American healthcare will make a lot of people nuts. Time to eat the rich.
Power to the people, not the oligarchs, hey?
Yes, Lenny, social media is a cesspool of dumb. A race to the bottom with racism, misogyny, and conspiracy theories drowning out facts.
Murder is wrong. Vigilante justice is wrong. Using guns to inflict your anger and rage on others is a stain on America. Lock him up.
Quote from: Its DJOver on December 11, 2024, 08:33:23 AMWhat maximizes coverage. If you're caught right away, you get the ~weeks worth of coverage because the murder and apprehension overlap. If you disappear forever the murder gets the ~weeks worth of coverage. If you're caught after a week the murder gets it ~week coverage, the apprehension gets its ~weeks coverage, and you get the additional publicity when they release details about your background or there's a new mugshot, or a trial date is set, which wouldn't be the case if you were killed. It seems clear that he wanted to have the spotlight on him/United for as long as possible. This seems to accomplish that.
Bingo. It's not hard to understand. Muggsy stated he thinks the guy expected to get away with it. Why is he carrying a manifesto with him 5 days after the murder if he doesn't think he'll be caught?
Why did he flee? Because he wants the attention on his "message." His "message" is in the news cycle for one day if he stays at the scene and surrenders to police. If there's an international manhunt to find him? Yeah, a lot more publicity for a lot longer time.
But yes, I'm sure a guy who thought he was going to get away with murder wrote a manifesto and kept it with him, along with the murder weapon, the silencer, and fake IDs used to get lodging near the scene. And I'm the one taking the loss. ;D
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 11, 2024, 10:10:13 AMWe have DAs prosecuting and citizen's demanding the head of Good Samaritan heroes and citizens praising or making excuses for a cold blooded cowardly murderer. Sad.
Wait, are you and Billy really projecting a Twitter post to represent society? hah
Quote from: wadesworld on December 11, 2024, 10:18:24 AMBingo. It's not hard to understand. Muggsy stated he thinks the guy expected to get away with it. Why is he carrying a manifesto with him 5 days after the murder if he doesn't think he'll be caught?
Why did he flee? Because he wants the attention on his "message." His "message" is in the news cycle for one day if he stays at the scene and surrenders to police. If there's an international manhunt to find him? Yeah, a lot more publicity for a lot longer time.
But yes, I'm sure a guy who thought he was going to get away with murder wrote a manifesto and kept it with him, along with the murder weapon, the silencer, and fake IDs used to get lodging near the scene. And I'm the one taking the loss. ;D
Right. I'm sure his goal was to generate attention for the manhunt like Bonnie and Clyde or Eric Rudolph...all of whom killed people in pursuit of their version of justice.
But he flirted with a girl at a coffee shop and it didn't last as long as he would have liked. Tale as old as time.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 11, 2024, 08:35:23 AMThe only point made by shooting an unarmed complete stranger in the back is that you're a POS murderer. That people are paying attention to the shooter's opinions on the healthcare system or turning him into some sort of heroic figure is even more troubling than the cold blooded murder.
It's really not a cold blooded murder. Luigi (and plenty of other people) truly believe these ceos are evil.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 11, 2024, 10:20:25 AMWait, are you and Billy really projecting a Twitter post to represent society? hah
No, I'm using it as an example of people who are making the guy out to be a hero and going to extreme levels in doing it. Though it does reflect a segment of society.
Traditionally, the seven deadly sins are pride, greed, wrath, envy, lust, gluttony, and sloth. In modern society, a significant subset has made them their virtues. You can find them on social media.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 11, 2024, 10:29:58 AMNo, I'm using it as an example of people who are making the guy out to be a hero and going to extreme levels in doing it. Though it does reflect a segment of society.
This is not exactly anything new in our society though. What's changed relatively recently is that everyone has access to a platform to broadcast their beliefs to literally anyone that looks for them.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 11, 2024, 10:29:58 AMNo, I'm using it as an example of people who are making the guy out to be a hero and going to extreme levels in doing it. Though it does reflect a segment of society.
Sure, there are some, but using a likely AI generated image might not be your best work (I don't tweet, but I'd guess it's not the best source of facts).
I would also guess, that most "sympathizers" aren't actually condoning killing, but rather suffering from the same fallacy that Luigi did - that health insurance (or any other big business) will be exposed or change because a CEO killing.
But hey, this is really just another gun violence thread (which never end well).
Let's not forget - guns are fun whether used to murder lots of kids or a CEO.
Outside is America.
Quote from: tower912 on December 11, 2024, 10:32:34 AMTraditionally, the seven deadly sins are pride, greed, wrath, envy, lust, gluttony, and sloth. In modern society, a significant subset has made them their virtues. You can find them on social media.
I'm guilty of the last three. You got a problem with that Tower?
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on December 11, 2024, 11:50:11 AMI'm guilty of the last three. You got a problem with that Tower?
I'm envious.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 11, 2024, 10:36:23 AMSure, there are some, but using a likely AI generated image might not be your best work (I don't tweet, but I'd guess it's not the best source of facts).
I would also guess, that most "sympathizers" aren't actually condoning killing, but rather suffering from the same fallacy that Luigi did - that health insurance (or any other big business) will be exposed or change because a CEO killing.
But hey, this is really just another gun violence thread (which never end well).
Of course nothing will change with regards to insurance or heath care. This is America, baby. The oligarchs always win and the people happily take it and blame the poor and downtrodden. We are a Christian nation, after all
Tots and pears
Unfortunately, there will probably have to be more blood before any actual change in the for profit health care system occurs.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 11, 2024, 10:36:23 AMSure, there are some, but using a likely AI generated image might not be your best work (I don't tweet, but I'd guess it's not the best source of facts).
I would also guess, that most "sympathizers" aren't actually condoning killing, but rather suffering from the same fallacy that Luigi did - that health insurance (or any other big business) will be exposed or change because a CEO killing.
But hey, this is really just another gun violence thread (which never end well).
Murder is about the worst crime you can commit as an individual, I assume we all agree.
I'd argue that the shooter and the victim both have blood on their hands and getting murdered in cold blood doesn't exonerate you from the role you played in others dying.
https://www.propublica.org/article/unitedhealth-healthcare-insurance-denial-ulcerative-colitis
I hope that the victims family finds peace for what was done to their beloved family member. They didn't deserve to have their loved one torn away from them like that.
Just as I hope that the thousands of people who are denied care every day are able to find peace and not have to make the hard choice between bankrupting their families due to medical debt and living in pain/accepting their demise.
The man did not deserve to be shot like he did but I find it hard to lecture others on not having a shred of pity for someone who has played a significant role in their eyes in making their lives more challenging. I have personal acquaintances who have experienced excessive hardship over coverage denial, as I'm sure many here do too.
You cannot deny that something that has always kind of bubbled at the surface level of inevitability for the last few years is now thrust into the main spotlight due to the events though.
Does anyone have any ideas on why they are only charging him with 2nd degree homicide. Seems like it is pretty clear that this was premeditated?
Quote from: forgetful on December 11, 2024, 02:07:07 PMDoes anyone have any ideas on why they are only charging him with 2nd degree homicide. Seems like it is pretty clear that this was premeditated?
They will likely upgrade the charges as the investigation continues.
Quote from: forgetful on December 11, 2024, 02:07:07 PMDoes anyone have any ideas on why they are only charging him with 2nd degree homicide. Seems like it is pretty clear that this was premeditated?
https://www.foxnews.com/video/6365842422112
Skip to about 1 minute in
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 11, 2024, 02:12:55 PMhttps://www.foxnews.com/video/6365842422112
Skip to about 1 minute in
Thank you. And may be a bit old man screaming at clouds, but I hate how much of the news has to be video now, I so prefer to just read the news.
yeah same
Thanks Mark Zuckerberg
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 11, 2024, 10:20:25 AMWait, are you and Billy really projecting a Twitter post to represent society? hah
A twitter post? I've watched people who are paid for their insights on the human condition sharing these ideas on TV. I've seen organizations protesting outside of courtrooms. I wish it was just a twitter post. Or just a thousand twitter posts.
I hope you are enjoying Medicare, Lenny.
Quote from: 4 Falling Turds on December 11, 2024, 01:37:13 PMI'd argue that the shooter and the victim both have blood on their hands and getting murdered in cold blood doesn't exonerate you from the role you played in others dying.
I guess you could argue that. Just as one could argue that John Wilkes Booth and Abraham Lincoln had blood on their hands. Dumb argument then, dumb argument now.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 11, 2024, 03:39:19 PMI guess you could argue that. Just as one could argue that John Wilkes Booth and Abraham Lincoln had blood on their hands. Dumb argument then, dumb argument now.
That'd be a terrible analogy. But please, expand.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 11, 2024, 03:43:35 PMThat'd be a terrible analogy. But please, expand.
Pretty obvious, but since you don't get it here's another one:
Climate change extremist murders CEO of Exxon. Poster on Scoop opines that the victim and the killer both have blood on their hands.
Anti abortion extremist shoots a doctor who performs abortions in the back and kills him. Poster on Scoop opines that victim and the killer have blood on their hands.
Bottom line: some people can always find something negative to say about the victim - remember George Floyd? Why? It's beside the point and meaningless except in the sick mind of the murderer.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 11, 2024, 03:28:52 PMA twitter post? I've watched people who are paid for their insights on the human condition sharing these ideas on TV. I've seen organizations protesting outside of courtrooms. I wish it was just a twitter post. Or just a thousand twitter posts.
Well, you did reply to a post about a twitter post. Anyhow, read my following reply, I think the reactions are more nuanced than you think.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 11, 2024, 03:59:51 PMPretty obvious, but since you don't get it here's another one:
Climate change extremist murders CEO of Exxon. Poster on Scoop opines that the victim and the killer both have blood on their hands.
Anti abortion extremist shoots a doctor who performs abortions in the back and kills him. Poster on Scoop opines that victim and the killer have blood on their hands.
Bottom line: some people can always find something negative to say about the victim - remember George Floyd? Why? It's beside the point and meaningless except in the sick mind of the murderer.
These are also bad, but please, more.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 11, 2024, 03:59:51 PMPretty obvious, but since you don't get it here's another one:
Climate change extremist murders CEO of Exxon. Poster on Scoop opines that the victim and the killer both have blood on their hands.
Anti abortion extremist shoots a doctor who performs abortions in the back and kills him. Poster on Scoop opines that victim and the killer have blood on their hands.
Bottom line: some people can always find something negative to say about the victim - remember George Floyd? Why? It's beside the point and meaningless except in the sick mind of the murderer.
Forest 4 da treez
Quote from: 4 Falling Turds on December 11, 2024, 01:37:13 PMMurder is about the worst crime you can commit as an individual, I assume we all agree.
I'd argue that the shooter and the victim both have blood on their hands and getting murdered in cold blood doesn't exonerate you from the role you played in others dying.
https://www.propublica.org/article/unitedhealth-healthcare-insurance-denial-ulcerative-colitis
I hope that the victims family finds peace for what was done to their beloved family member. They didn't deserve to have their loved one torn away from them like that.
Just as I hope that the thousands of people who are denied care every day are able to find peace and not have to make the hard choice between bankrupting their families due to medical debt and living in pain/accepting their demise.
The man did not deserve to be shot like he did but I find it hard to lecture others on not having a shred of pity for someone who has played a significant role in their eyes in making their lives more challenging. I have personal acquaintances who have experienced excessive hardship over coverage denial, as I'm sure many here do too.
You cannot deny that something that has always kind of bubbled at the surface level of inevitability for the last few years is now thrust into the main spotlight due to the events though.
Some people beg for death after what they've been through, so no I won't agree.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 11, 2024, 03:59:51 PMPretty obvious, but since you don't get it here's another one:
Climate change extremist murders CEO of Exxon. Poster on Scoop opines that the victim and the killer both have blood on their hands.
Anti abortion extremist shoots a doctor who performs abortions in the back and kills him. Poster on Scoop opines that victim and the killer have blood on their hands.
Bottom line: some people can always find something negative to say about the victim - remember George Floyd? Why? It's beside the point and meaningless except in the sick mind of the murderer.
Jamie did the second example.
Lenny, if I am hearing you correctly, it sounds like you are frustrated about the lies, conspiracy theories, and disregard for your fellow man being exhibited on social media.
In the spirit of the season, WELCOME TO THE PARTY, PAL.
Do yourself and your sanity a favor if it frustrates you so. Walk away. Abandon it and cable news.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 11, 2024, 04:00:23 PMWell, you did reply to a post about a twitter post. Anyhow, read my following reply, I think the reactions are more nuanced than you think.
Right. Most people aren't saying "he deserved to die." I think many are simply not finding him to be a sympathetic victim because he's a symbol for many of the things that people find wrong with the health care industry in our country.
"I would never do such a thing, but I get the anger behind it."
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 11, 2024, 04:02:33 PMThese are also bad, but please, more.
Why waste more time on someone so committed to being dense?
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 11, 2024, 04:09:43 PMRight. Most people aren't saying "he deserved to die." I think many are simply not finding him to be a sympathetic victim because he's a symbol for many of the things that people find wrong with the health care industry in our country.
"I would never do such a thing, but I get the anger behind it."
There are movements to support him financially, and to support his case for exoneration. Sadly, there are a lot of people that do think "he deserved to die".
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 11, 2024, 04:12:08 PMWhy waste more time on someone so committed to being dense?
I dunno, you get replies all the time so it seems others have patience.
Quote from: forgetful on December 11, 2024, 04:27:56 PMThere are movements to support him financially, and to support his case for exoneration. Sadly, there are a lot of people that do think "he deserved to die".
Maybe he didn't deserve to die, but that isn't the point. The point is he (and many many others) have enriched themselves upon the misery of the average person. And now that price has been paid. Call it mob justice or whatever, but sometimes that is the cost of doing business on the edge of morality.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 11, 2024, 08:35:23 AMThe only point made by shooting an unarmed complete stranger in the back is that you're a POS murderer. That people are paying attention to the shooter's opinions on the healthcare system or turning him into some sort of heroic figure is even more troubling than the cold blooded murder.
Yes, it's like the many people who rallied to defend (and even praise) murderers Kyle Rittenhouse and George Zimmerman, not to mention the police-bludgeoning Jan. 6 "patriots."
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 11, 2024, 03:59:51 PMPretty obvious, but since you don't get it here's another one:
Climate change extremist murders CEO of Exxon. Poster on Scoop opines that the victim and the killer both have blood on their hands.
Anti abortion extremist shoots a doctor who performs abortions in the back and kills him. Poster on Scoop opines that victim and the killer have blood on their hands.
Bottom line: some people can always find something negative to say about the victim - remember George Floyd? Why? It's beside the point and meaningless except in the sick mind of the murderer.
Again, I hope you are enjoying Medicare.
If there is an overwhelming reaction as you are saying there is, maybe think about why that may be regardless of whether you agree or not.
Quote from: forgetful on December 11, 2024, 04:27:56 PMThere are movements to support him financially, and to support his case for exoneration. Sadly, there are a lot of people that do think "he deserved to die".
I would suggest those aren't mutually exclusive but not going to argue it.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 11, 2024, 04:38:15 PMMaybe he didn't deserve to die, but that isn't the point. The point is he (and many many others) have enriched themselves upon the misery of the average person. And now that price has been paid. Call it mob justice or whatever, but sometimes that is the cost of doing business on the edge of morality.
(https://images.cartoonstock.com/lowres/politics-clay_bennett_s_editorial_cartoons-racial-ignorance-brutality-knife-EC126994_low.jpg)
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 11, 2024, 04:38:15 PMMaybe he didn't deserve to die,Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 11, 2024, 04:38:15 PMMaybe he didn't deserve to die, but that isn't the point. The point is he (and many many others) have enriched themselves upon the misery of the average person. And now that price has been paid. Call it mob justice or whatever, but sometimes that is the cost of doing business on the edge of morality.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 11, 2024, 04:38:15 PMMaybe he didn't deserve to die, but that isn't the point. The point is he (and many many others) have enriched themselves upon the misery of the average person. And now that price has been paid. Call it mob justice or whatever, but sometimes that is the cost of doing business on the edge of morality.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 11, 2024, 04:38:15 PMMaybe he didn't deserve to die, but that isn't the point. The point is he (and many many others) have enriched themselves upon the misery of the average person. And now that price has been paid. Call it mob justice or whatever, but sometimes that is the cost of doing business on the edge of morality.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 11, 2024, 04:38:15 PMMaybe he didn't deserve to die
Maybe he didn't deserve to die? MAYBE??? If you honestly believe that a maybe belongs before the "he didn't deserve to die" you're an awful human being. Not one who deserves to die, mind you, but awful nonetheless.
Pretty sure blue whales made him do it, they are always on the attack
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 11, 2024, 04:51:02 PMI would suggest those aren't mutually exclusive but not going to argue it.
Are you sure you are feeling alright? Because that would have just been an argument over semantics, which I believe is your forte.
Might want to schedule a doctors visit, as you don't seem like your normal self.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 11, 2024, 07:28:01 PMMaybe he didn't deserve to die? MAYBE??? If you honestly believe that a maybe belongs before the "he didn't deserve to die" you're an awful human being. Not one who deserves to die, mind you, but awful nonetheless.
Maybe he was part of a child sacrificing cult behind close doors. You can't be sure. I'd use the maybe for anyone just to be safe.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 11, 2024, 07:28:01 PMMaybe he didn't deserve to die? MAYBE??? If you honestly believe that a maybe belongs before the "he didn't deserve to die" you're an awful human being. Not one who deserves to die, mind you, but awful nonetheless.
Seethe. Hell has a special place for people who are complicit with profiteering from the deaths of their fellow humans. What I'm saying is that while I didn't wish for this man's death, I am indifferent about it.
QuoteI just did what I do best. I took your little plan and I turned it on itself. Look what I did to this city with a few drums of gas and a couple of bullets. Hmmm? You know... You know what I've noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying! If, tomorrow, I tell the press that, like, a gang banger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all "part of the plan". But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds. Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos. I'm an agent of chaos. Oh, and you know the thing about chaos? It's fair!"
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 11, 2024, 07:28:01 PMMaybe he didn't deserve to die? MAYBE??? If you honestly believe that a maybe belongs before the "he didn't deserve to die" you're an awful human being. Not one who deserves to die, mind you, but awful nonetheless.
Let's play this game.
When does someone deserve to die?
Does Lugie deserve to die for murder? Sex trafficers? Pol pot? Khan? Hitler? Stalin?
When does one cross into the deserve to die territory in your mind?
Quote from: 4 Falling Turds on December 11, 2024, 09:22:08 PMMaybe he was part of a child sacrificing cult behind close doors. You can't be sure. I'd use the maybe for anyone just to be safe.
I mean.... he was part of the very awful healthcare insurance. So child sacrifice (and sacrifice in general) is pretty much routine.
No sympathy for this murderer. He created his own problems and deserves the punishment for the rest of his life that he's likely to get.
We have laws in this country that guide us all to live in civility. Luigi didn't respect the process...kolek 'im, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 12, 2024, 09:23:16 AMNo sympathy for this murderer. He created his own problems and deserves the punishment for the rest of his life that he's likely to get.
We have laws in this country that guide us all to live in civility. Luigi didn't respect the process...kolek 'im, aina?
Yep, I agree. Also, I won't be surprised when it happens again.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 12, 2024, 09:23:16 AMNo sympathy for this murderer. He created his own problems and deserves the punishment for the rest of his life that he's likely to get.
We have laws in this country that guide us all to live in civility. Luigi didn't respect the process...kolek 'im, aina?
I of course agree with this. But it would have been nice if you said and felt the same about the likes of Rittenhouse, Zimmerman, etc.
I guess it's occasionally OK to ignore our country's laws if it fits the narrative one prefers.
aina
I'm just glad we're having this discussion instead of after a group of kids gets slaughtered and we say "we just have to live with it"
Quote from: MU82 on December 12, 2024, 09:53:23 AMI of course agree with this. But it would have been nice if you said and felt the same about the likes of Rittenhouse, Zimmerman, etc.
I guess it's occasionally OK to ignore our country's laws if it fits the narrative one prefers.
aina
Without taking the obvious political bait, the people have spoken, hey?
Quote from: MU82 on December 12, 2024, 09:53:23 AMI of course agree with this. But it would have been nice if you said and felt the same about the likes of Rittenhouse, Zimmerman, etc.
I guess it's occasionally OK to ignore our country's laws if it fits the narrative one prefers.
aina
Huh? Tf are you talm bout?
Weren't Rittenhouse & Zimmerman acquitted in a court of law? I don't think this non-sex having lunatic will. Completely different, my boi.
Maybe your judgment is just clouded bc you think he's a ... what's your term?... a "sexpot"?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 12, 2024, 10:06:51 AMWithout taking the obvious political bait, the people have spoken, hey?
They have spoken, and what a lot of people say is they don't have a problem with the use of violence if it advances their cause. There is a long history in America of that being the case.
I mean, we faught an entire civil war because half the country wanted to continue to enslave other human beings. We have video accounts of a mob of people physically assaulting members of a police force, yet we have a significant portion of our society wanting members of that mob pardoned.
Why would we expect anything different in this case? We have a violent past. That will continue.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 12, 2024, 10:16:37 AMThey have spoken, and what a lot of people say is they don't have a problem with the use of violence if it advances their cause. There is a long history in America of that being the case.
I mean, we faught an entire civil war because half the country wanted to continue to enslave other human beings. We have video accounts of a mob of people physically assaulting members of a police force, yet we have a significant portion of our society wanting members of that mob pardoned.
Why would we expect anything different in this case? We have a violent past. That will continue.
Hope so. We need a little anarchy in this country
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 12, 2024, 10:06:51 AMWithout taking the obvious political bait, the people have spoken, hey?
The American people pride themselves in ignorance, so I'm not sure listening to them is the wisest idea.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 12, 2024, 10:16:37 AMThey have spoken, and what a lot of people say is they don't have a problem with the use of violence if it advances their cause. There is a long history in America of that being the case.
I mean, we faught an entire civil war because half the country wanted to continue to enslave other human beings. We have video accounts of a mob of people physically assaulting members of a police force, yet we have a significant portion of our society wanting members of that mob pardoned.
Why would we expect anything different in this case? We have a violent past. That will continue.
Put it to a vote, shall we, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 12, 2024, 10:41:23 AMPut it to a vote, shall we, hey?
Put what to a vote? I made a series of factual statements.
Quote from: Jay Bee on December 12, 2024, 10:13:52 AMHuh? Tf are you talm bout?
Weren't Rittenhouse & Zimmerman acquitted in a court of law? I don't think this non-sex having lunatic will. Completely different, my boi.
Maybe your judgment is just clouded bc you think he's a ... what's your term?... a "sexpot"?
The law presumes innocence until proven guilty, sir.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 12, 2024, 10:59:52 AMThe law presumes innocence until proven guilty, sir.
Had the CEO been African-American, he'd probably been more likely to be acquitted
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 12, 2024, 09:58:59 AMI'm just glad we're having this discussion instead of after a group of kids gets slaughtered and we say "we just have to live with it"
I am upset that no one has offered thoughts & prayers for this CEO and his family. Seems to mean that those that are appalled aren't really THAT appalled.
Quote from: MU82 on December 12, 2024, 09:53:23 AMI of course agree with this. But it would have been nice if you said and felt the same about the likes of Rittenhouse, Zimmerman, etc.
I guess it's occasionally OK to ignore our country's laws if it fits the narrative one prefers.
aina
Leave it to 82 to bring the ban hammer into the thread...
Quote from: Jockey on December 12, 2024, 11:57:15 AMI am upset that no one has offered thoughts & prayers for this CEO and his family. Seems to mean that those that are appalled aren't really THAT appalled.
Probably because they know he's in hell
Quote from: Jockey on December 12, 2024, 11:57:15 AMI am upset that no one has offered thoughts & prayers for this CEO and his family. Seems to mean that those that are appalled aren't really THAT appalled.
Wait. When people do offer thoughts and prayers you question their sincerity about being appalled. And when they don't offer thoughts and prayers you do the same.
Who's the one being insincere?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 12, 2024, 12:13:19 PMWait. When people do offer thoughts and prayers you question their sincerity about being appalled. And when they don't offer thoughts and prayers you do the same.
Who's the one being insincere?
Thoughts and prayers are a joke, right? I thought it was a tongue-in-cheek way of saying, "I'm not going to lift my finger over this one."
People are serious when they say thoughts and prayers? Wild.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 12, 2024, 12:13:19 PMWait. When people do offer thoughts and prayers you question their sincerity about being appalled. And when they don't offer thoughts and prayers you do the same.
Who's the one being insincere?
The ones offering thoughts and prayers, easy
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 12, 2024, 12:44:25 PMThoughts and prayers are a joke, right? I thought it was a tongue-in-cheek way of saying, "I'm not going to lift my finger over this one."
People are serious when they say thoughts and prayers? Wild.
They're very serious about not upsetting their donors
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 12, 2024, 12:44:25 PMThoughts and prayers are a joke, right? I thought it was a tongue-in-cheek way of saying, "I'm not going to lift my finger over this one."
People are serious when they say thoughts and prayers? Wild.
Nothing more exhilarating than helping the blind to see. You're welcome!
I prayed for United's stock price
Quote from: 4 Falling Turds on December 12, 2024, 02:01:00 PMI prayed for United's stock price
Won't anyone think of the stockholders?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 12, 2024, 02:04:34 PMWon't anyone think of the stockholders?
Yeah, I just told you I gave my prayers and what I assumed would also suggest my thoughts.
Quote from: #UnleashSean on December 12, 2024, 12:04:54 PMLeave it to 82 to bring the ban hammer into the thread...
https://x.com/janecoaston/status/1867322516446031957
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 12, 2024, 12:13:19 PMWait. When people do offer thoughts and prayers you question their sincerity about being appalled. And when they don't offer thoughts and prayers you do the same.
Who's the one being insincere?
That would be me.
I mock these shootings because people really don't care. T&P is nothing but empty lip service (if I may be redundant). But I do wonder why people who extend thought & prayers only do so for some. How do they decide?
So, yes, I was being 100% insincere.
Quote from: Jockey on December 12, 2024, 07:35:50 PMThat would be me.
I mock these shootings because people really don't care. T&P is nothing but empty lip service (if I may be redundant). But I do wonder why people who extend thought & prayers only do so for some understanding. How do they decide?
So, yes, I was being 100% insincere.
We disagree, as we often do. But as always I appreciate your honesty.
Quote from: Jay Bee on December 12, 2024, 10:13:52 AMHuh? Tf are you talm bout?
Weren't Rittenhouse & Zimmerman acquitted in a court of law? I don't think this non-sex having lunatic will. Completely different, my boi.
Maybe your judgment is just clouded bc you think he's a ... what's your term?... a "sexpot"?
I'm 100% confident, that no matter what the jury decides in the Luigi case, you will still say he is guilty of murder.
If he would happen to be acquitted by jury nullification, or simply found innocent, you would still say he is guilty. And I would too.
Quote from: forgetful on December 12, 2024, 09:31:26 PMI'm 100% confident, that no matter what the jury decides in the Luigi case, you will still say he is guilty of murder.
If he would happen to be acquitted by jury nullification, or simply found innocent, you would still say he is guilty. And I would too.
Well..... this one is a BIT different than Rittenhouse. Let's respect the nuance .
Like OJ, Rittenhouse is a murderer who wasn't found guilty. And like OJ, a segment of society made Rittenhouse a hero.
Quote from: MU82 on December 12, 2024, 10:11:01 PMLike OJ, Rittenhouse is a murderer who wasn't found guilty. And like OJ, a segment of society made Rittenhouse a hero.
Totally the same. OJ admitted he cut Nicole and Ron Goldman's heads off but that is was in self defense. And there was proof that Nicole attacked the Juice with a skateboard and that Goldman had a Glock pointed at OJ's head. Lots of chaos in Brentwood that night.
https://bsky.app/profile/themorrancave.bsky.social/post/3ld6n72q2422v
Let's make this thread an example of the cruelty and disgrace that is the American healthcare system.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 13, 2024, 07:10:06 AMhttps://bsky.app/profile/themorrancave.bsky.social/post/3ld6n72q2422v
Let's make this thread an example of the cruelty and disgrace that is the American healthcare system.
"Hey man, what can we do? That's just business" - Bootlicker Lenny, probably.
https://bsky.app/profile/newyorker.com/post/3ld5ccx67ac2a
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 13, 2024, 07:23:36 AM"Hey man, what can we do? That's just business" - Bootlicker Lenny, probably.
What can we do? Eat the rich, baby, eat the rich.
I don't think a lot of people have a great understanding of how difficult it is to navigate the health care system these days. IMO it has gotten significantly harder and more expensive the last decade or so.
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/2024-in-review/the-gilded-age-of-medicine-is-here
https://x.com/DudespostingWs/status/1867552667284713785?t=G2kFjlS_YJCcv7xG3M2SJg&s=19
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2024, 07:00:44 AMTotally the same. OJ admitted he cut Nicole and Ron Goldman's heads off but that is was in self defense. And there was proof that Nicole attacked the Juice with a skateboard and that Goldman had a Glock pointed at OJ's head. Lots of chaos in Brentwood that night.
What you are failing to acknowledge is that the people that look at this the same as those other cases, look at it in that way because these healthcare CEO's run companies that deny insurance claims for necessary treatments, without which, the individuals who need them may, or likely will die. Or are suffering from debilitating injuries/diseases which make them want to die.
So to them, it is the the same (or in some cases they would prefer) that they just were attacked with a skateboard. Or that it is the same as having a Glock to their head, because, they can choose bankruptcy or death.
but then when BCBS tries to do something to keep costs down for patients the doctors go nuts (that Q7 payment and country club dues aren't going to pay themselves) and force a reversal and the public cheers:
https://www.vox.com/policy/390031/anthem-blue-cross-blue-shield-anesthesia-limits-insurance?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 13, 2024, 09:27:04 AMbut then when BCBS tries to do something to keep costs down for patients the doctors go nuts (that Q7 payment and country club dues aren't going to pay themselves) and force a reversal and the public cheers:
https://www.vox.com/policy/390031/anthem-blue-cross-blue-shield-anesthesia-limits-insurance?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
How'd your dad manage to pay for the country club dues? Big pharm reps just put those on the expense account for him?
Quote from: wadesworld on December 13, 2024, 09:31:00 AMHow'd your dad manage to pay for the country club dues? Big pharm reps just put those on the expense account for him?
my dad was just a small-town GP so I worked at the country club and we played at the public course. But the payments on his Chevy S10 with power nothing were low enough he didn't have to overcharge patients.
I do remember his group stopped taking Medicaid patients in the early 90s because the reimbursement process was so arduous and unreliable.
Quote from: forgetful on December 13, 2024, 08:42:30 AMWhat you are failing to acknowledge is that the people that look at this the same as those other cases, look at it in that way because these healthcare CEO's run companies that deny insurance claims for necessary treatments, without which, the individuals who need them may, or likely will die. Or are suffering from debilitating injuries/diseases which make them want to die.
So to them, it is the the same (or in some cases they would prefer) that they just were attacked with a skateboard. Or that it is the same as having a Glock to their head, because, they can choose bankruptcy or death.
On the contrary, I totally acknowledge that to some people executing healthcare CEOs, abortion doctors, oil company executives, presidential candidates and others whom they consider bad people is a form of self defense or justifiable homicide. I just think they're way worse than the people the people they choose to murder. Evidently many here disagree.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2024, 10:09:32 AMOn the contrary, I totally acknowledge that to some people executing healthcare CEOs, abortion doctors, oil company executives, presidential candidates and others whom they consider bad people is a form of self defense or justifiable homicide. I just think they're way worse than the people the people they choose to murder. Evidently many here disagree.
Peak
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 13, 2024, 09:57:45 AMmy dad was just a small-town GP so I worked at the country club and we played at the public course. But the payments on his Chevy S10 with power nothing were low enough he didn't have to overcharge patients.
I do remember his group stopped taking Medicaid patients in the early 90s because the reimbursement process was so arduous and unreliable.
Unless things have changed, the "GP" physicians still earn far less than physicians in specialties. My guess is that your father got a lot of flak when he stopped taking Medicaid patients. The "reimbursement process" is faceless, so it can easily escape blame.
My brother, a grad from Marquette's last Medical School class and a Urologist, had a policy of waiving the office and treatment charges for kids if the family was unable to pay. If an adult was unable to pay, he would ask what they did for a living or what skills they had to offer. In hardship cases, he waived the charges. When I would visit him, there was sometimes an electrician, painter, or landscaper keeping his end of the bargain. I would joke "being a fine upstanding American citizen, I know that you are reporting the value of their services on your 1040."
My Primary physician is almost always cheerful and he is very likable. But when he talks about Big Pharma? A darker side of his personality emerges.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 13, 2024, 07:10:06 AMhttps://bsky.app/profile/themorrancave.bsky.social/post/3ld6n72q2422v
Let's make this thread an example of the cruelty and disgrace that is the American healthcare system.
Heyoooooo ABA therapy in the news!
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 13, 2024, 09:27:04 AMbut then when BCBS tries to do something to keep costs down for patients the doctors go nuts (that Q7 payment and country club dues aren't going to pay themselves) and force a reversal and the public cheers:
https://www.vox.com/policy/390031/anthem-blue-cross-blue-shield-anesthesia-limits-insurance?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
Were not defending that awful position of arbitrary time lengths for surgeries are we? Because that was straight nonsense.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on December 13, 2024, 10:20:57 AMUnless things have changed, the "GP" physicians still earn far less than physicians in specialties. My guess is that your father got a lot of flak when he stopped taking Medicaid patients. The "reimbursement process" is faceless, so it can easily escape blame.
My brother, a grad from Marquette's last Medical School class and a Urologist, had a policy of waiving the office and treatment charges for kids if the family was unable to pay. If an adult was unable to pay, he would ask what they did for a living or what skills they had to offer. In hardship cases, he waived the charges. When I would visit him, there was sometimes an electrician, painter, or landscaper keeping his end of the bargain. I would joke "being a fine upstanding American citizen, I know that you are reporting the value of their services on your 1040."
My Primary physician is almost always cheerful and he is very likable. But when he talks about Big Pharma? A darker side of his personality emerges.
As a kid I asked my dad why he didn't drive a Porsche or Corvette like and orthopedic surgeons who parked next to him did. He responded "because I'm not an orthopedc
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on December 13, 2024, 10:20:57 AMUnless things have changed, the "GP" physicians still earn far less than physicians in specialties. My guess is that your father got a lot of flak when he stopped taking Medicaid patients. The "reimbursement process" is faceless, so it can easily escape blame.
My brother, a grad from Marquette's last Medical School class and a Urologist, had a policy of waiving the office and treatment charges for kids if the family was unable to pay. If an adult was unable to pay, he would ask what they did for a living or what skills they had to offer. In hardship cases, he waived the charges. When I would visit him, there was sometimes an electrician, painter, or landscaper keeping his end of the bargain. I would joke "being a fine upstanding American citizen, I know that you are reporting the value of their services on your 1040."
My Primary physician is almost always cheerful and he is very likable. But when he talks about Big Pharma? A darker side of his personality emerges.
My dad did something similar with a patient who was a hairstylist and her husband had lost his job when he had cancer; my family got haircuts in exchange for not being charged for medical care. I doubt he could do something similar today, but in the 80s it was a different era in medicine.
Yes, GPs are on the lower end of the pay scale, which is a major reason fewer medical students are entering specialties and that's contributing to patients having less access to general and preventative care. Patients are more frequently seeing PAs or NPs instead of physicians for routine appointments and wait times to get in are longer. GPs certainly aren't in the poor house but there is a large gap in both income and time spent working.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 13, 2024, 07:51:32 AMI don't think a lot of people have a great understanding of how difficult it is to navigate the health care system these days. IMO it has gotten significantly harder and more expensive the last decade or so.
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/2024-in-review/the-gilded-age-of-medicine-is-here
Actually I think a lot of people do understand it - hence the lack of sympathy for the dead guy.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 13, 2024, 09:57:45 AMmy dad was just a small-town GP so I worked at the country club and we played at the public course. But the payments on his Chevy S10 with power nothing were low enough he didn't have to overcharge patients.
I do remember his group stopped taking Medicaid patients in the early 90s because the reimbursement process was so arduous and unreliable.
Are you saying he (and his group) were so adamant about the Hippocratic Oath that they jettisoned their most needy patients?
Reading this thread, you would think almost ALL medical insurance claims are denied.
The fact is, many, many plans are self funded by employers. It's employers who dictate what is covered and what isn't, outside of what is legally required to be covered. Health coverage is one of the largest costs employers face. They are constantly balancing what they can afford to cover with offering a competitive benefit package.
You can debate that better coverage will allow for lower costs long term if you can get healthier employees. There is also the issue of lifestyle is a choice...
In self funded plans, the insurance company does not dictate what should be paid, it is the plan design. Insurance companies get paid to process bills, and draw funds out of your account to cover them.
I have Anthem BCBS, and couldn't be happier with them. I've had some ongoing stuff over the past few years, which includes a couple of surgeries. They have been awesome. Do I wish they would cover Wegovy so I could lean on that crutch to shed some extra pounds? Heck yes, but I realize I own the root issue (too many Marquette specials with cheese and onions).
Sure, there are people with bad stories/experiences with their insurance. Some are well founded, but many are not...those people usually aren't telling you the full story. My point is that the generalizations going on here about ALL insurance companies being bad is just BS.
Quote from: real chili 83 on December 13, 2024, 12:48:38 PMIn self funded plans, the insurance company does not dictate what should be paid...
While in reality that is the case, the insurance companies have "pre-packaged" plans that an employer has to analyze to determine what their costs would be. Sure they can say "I will take your Choice Plan, but I want you to up the coverage for chronic pain," but they don't actually do that very often.
Quote from: real chili 83 on December 13, 2024, 12:48:38 PMI have Anthem BCBS, and couldn't be happier with them.
And I've had United Health and have had no problems whatsoever.
Quote from: real chili 83 on December 13, 2024, 12:48:38 PMReading this thread, you would think almost ALL medical insurance claims are denied.
The fact is, many, many plans are self funded by employers. It's employers who dictate what is covered and what isn't, outside of what is legally required to be covered. Health coverage is one of the largest costs employers face. They are constantly balancing what they can afford to cover with offering a competitive benefit package.
You can debate that better coverage will allow for lower costs long term if you can get healthier employees. There is also the issue of lifestyle is a choice...
In self funded plans, the insurance company does not dictate what should be paid, it is the plan design. Insurance companies get paid to process bills, and draw funds out of your account to cover them.
I have Anthem BCBS, and couldn't be happier with them. I've had some ongoing stuff over the past few years, which includes a couple of surgeries. They have been awesome. Do I wish they would cover Wegovy so I could lean on that crutch to shed some extra pounds? Heck yes, but I realize I own the root issue (too many Marquette specials with cheese and onions).
Sure, there are people with bad stories/experiences with their insurance. Some are well founded, but many are not...those people usually aren't telling you the full story. My point is that the generalizations going on here about ALL insurance companies being bad is just BS.
No, they're all bad
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 13, 2024, 11:25:14 AMAs a kid I asked my dad why he didn't drive a Porsche or Corvette like and orthopedic surgeons who parked next to him did. He responded "because I'm not an orthopedc
My dad did something similar with a patient who was a hairstylist and her husband had lost his job when he had cancer; my family got haircuts in exchange for not being charged for medical care. I doubt he could do something similar today, but in the 80s it was a different era in medicine.
Yes, GPs are on the lower end of the pay scale, which is a major reason fewer medical students are entering specialties and that's contributing to patients having less access to general and preventative care. Patients are more frequently seeing PAs or NPs instead of physicians for routine appointments and wait times to get in are longer. GPs certainly aren't in the poor house but there is a large gap in both income and time spent working.
And that's why a lot of primary care is being shifted to NPs and PAs.
I have a nurse practitioner as my PVP and I couldn't be happier with my care. She takes plenty of time with me whenever I visit. She actually listens to me and doesn't hesitate to refer me to a specialist if needed.
Quote from: real chili 83 on December 13, 2024, 12:48:38 PMReading this thread, you would think almost ALL medical insurance claims are denied.
The fact is, many, many plans are self funded by employers. It's employers who dictate what is covered and what isn't, outside of what is legally required to be covered. Health coverage is one of the largest costs employers face. They are constantly balancing what they can afford to cover with offering a competitive benefit package.
You can debate that better coverage will allow for lower costs long term if you can get healthier employees. There is also the issue of lifestyle is a choice...
In self funded plans, the insurance company does not dictate what should be paid, it is the plan design. Insurance companies get paid to process bills, and draw funds out of your account to cover them.
I have Anthem BCBS, and couldn't be happier with them. I've had some ongoing stuff over the past few years, which includes a couple of surgeries. They have been awesome. Do I wish they would cover Wegovy so I could lean on that crutch to shed some extra pounds? Heck yes, but I realize I own the root issue (too many Marquette specials with cheese and onions).
Sure, there are people with bad stories/experiences with their insurance. Some are well founded, but many are not...those people usually aren't telling you the full story. My point is that the generalizations going on here about ALL insurance companies being bad is just BS.
Nonsense.
UnitedHealthcare denied one out of every three claims last year. And in that same year they made $33 billion (!) in profits.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/amyfeldman/2024/12/05/unitedhealthcare-denies-more-claims-than-other-insurers---angering-patients-and-health-systems/
Not to mention, small businesses employ 50% of Americans, and 75% of small businesses employ less than 50 people, and are therefore exempt from having to provide health insurance for their employees.
If you're not having problems with your health insurance that's great for you, but entirely anecdotal.
Quote from: real chili 83 on December 13, 2024, 12:48:38 PMReading this thread, you would think almost ALL medical insurance claims are denied.
The fact is, many, many plans are self funded by employers. It's employers who dictate what is covered and what isn't, outside of what is legally required to be covered. Health coverage is one of the largest costs employers face. They are constantly balancing what they can afford to cover with offering a competitive benefit package.
You can debate that better coverage will allow for lower costs long term if you can get healthier employees. There is also the issue of lifestyle is a choice...
In self funded plans, the insurance company does not dictate what should be paid, it is the plan design. Insurance companies get paid to process bills, and draw funds out of your account to cover them.
I have Anthem BCBS, and couldn't be happier with them. I've had some ongoing stuff over the past few years, which includes a couple of surgeries. They have been awesome. Do I wish they would cover Wegovy so I could lean on that crutch to shed some extra pounds? Heck yes, but I realize I own the root issue (too many Marquette specials with cheese and onions).
Sure, there are people with bad stories/experiences with their insurance. Some are well founded, but many are not...those people usually aren't telling you the full story. My point is that the generalizations going on here about ALL insurance companies being bad is just BS.
The same Anthem that wanted to arbitrarily dictate surgery times?
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 13, 2024, 01:18:16 PMWhile in reality that is the case, the insurance companies have "pre-packaged" plans that an employer has to analyze to determine what their costs would be. Sure they can say "I will take your Choice Plan, but I want you to up the coverage for chronic pain," but they don't actually do that very often.
And I've had United Health and have had no problems whatsoever.
You are correct about the pre-packaged plans. Those are fully funded and are used for employers who have typically under 100 employees or are uncomfortable with the potential variability of self funded plans.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 13, 2024, 01:22:51 PMNonsense. UnitedHealthcare denied one out of every three claims last year. And in that same year they made $33 billion (!) in profits.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/amyfeldman/2024/12/05/unitedhealthcare-denies-more-claims-than-other-insurers---angering-patients-and-health-systems/
Not to mention, small businesses employ 50% of Americans, and 75% of small businesses employ less than 50 people, and are therefore exempt from having to provide health insurance for their employees.
If you're not having problems with your health insurance that's great for you, but entirely anecdotal.
Mine is not anecdotal. It just doesn't fit your narrative.
Quote from: real chili 83 on December 13, 2024, 01:39:56 PMMine is not anecdotal. It just doesn't fit your narrative.
No, it literally is.
I don't have a narrative. Our health care system is broken and gets worse every year. We outspend everyone else in the world (it isn't remotely close either) and get results similar to third world countries.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/#Health%20expenditures%20per%20capita,%20U.S.%20dollars,%20PPP%20adjusted,%202022
I could go on about this for days. Again, I'm happy for your outcomes, but the US health care system is the laughingstock of the world.
All of that. And, through their denial of care, big insurance is now the death panels Sarah Palin warned us about.
This is the killer's motive.
So, if the defense is able to hang a jury, does that mean this guy isn't a killer?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 13, 2024, 01:52:46 PMNo, it literally is.
I don't have a narrative. Our health care system is broken and gets worse every year. We outspend everyone else in the world (it isn't remotely close either) and get results similar to third world countries.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/#Health%20expenditures%20per%20capita,%20U.S.%20dollars,%20PPP%20adjusted,%202022
I could go on about this for days. Again, I'm happy for your outcomes, but the US health care system is the laughingstock of the world.
Agree that there is a ton of room for improvement. Don't need the hyperbole, though.
There are a ton of reasons for it, from waste to lifestyle, to the cost of medical research, to....
Quote from: real chili 83 on December 13, 2024, 02:18:53 PMAgree that there is a ton of room for improvement. Don't need the hyperbole, though.
There are a ton of reasons for it, from waste to lifestyle, to the cost of medical research, to....
Patent law, tort law, price gouging...
But mostly the inherent nature of running a for profit company that is designed to make money... and more of it every year. Eventually, there is no more juice to squeeze.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 13, 2024, 01:52:46 PMNo, it literally is.
I don't have a narrative. Our health care system is broken and gets worse every year. We outspend everyone else in the world (it isn't remotely close either) and get results similar to third world countries.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/#Health%20expenditures%20per%20capita,%20U.S.%20dollars,%20PPP%20adjusted,%202022
I could go on about this for days. Again, I'm happy for your outcomes, but the US health care system is the laughingstock of the world.
You've said before that you are a small business owner. Your insurance must be a huge issue. Probably fully funded, and subject to premium increases due to experience ratings. Guessing you have to make tough choices between getting good coverage and the cost of good coverage based up the experience (and medical trend) of your employees. You probably need to get quotes almost every year. It's a real b1tch. I've managed fully funded and self funded plans. That's not a lot of fun.
In my experience, the companies I have worked with really value the customer experience our employees got from the insurance companies. Some of the vendors I used were subsidiaries of UHG. all provided good experiences.
Quote from: real chili 83 on December 13, 2024, 02:25:04 PMYou've said before that you are a small business owner. Your insurance must be a huge issue. Probably fully funded, and subject to premium increases due to experience ratings. Guessing you have to make tough choices between getting good coverage and the cost of good coverage based up the experience (and medical trend) of your employees. You probably need to get quotes almost every year. It's a real b1tch. I've managed fully funded and self funded plans. That's not a lot of fun.
In my experience, the companies I have worked with really value the customer experience our employees got from the insurance companies. Some of the vendors I used were subsidiaries of UHG. all provided good experiences.
YES, now imagine all of that nonsense going away forever!!! It is a waste of everyone's time and energy! And for what? So some investor's portfolio can increase and some downtrodden employee can have care denied?
I will never understand how some people can be so against government bureaucracy, yet defend an entire industry that is ONLY bureaucracy. A bunch of actuaries behind desks trying to squeeze every dollar of value from a human being. They provide no actual service except to increase profit margins. Essentially, we're paying the people who will later deny us the coverage we are owed.
We're so stupid.
Just because an entity is non profit, like an insurance company, a clinic, a hospital, ect., doesn't mean they aren't interested in making nice profits. Trust me, they are VERY interested in being profitable as heck.
There is a very nice ortho clinic system where I live that does some amazing charity work in central america. That said, they are doctor owned, and are super interested in their bottom line.
The improvements to be made in health care go way beyond UHC.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 13, 2024, 01:22:51 PMNonsense. UnitedHealthcare denied one out of every three claims last year. And in that same year they made $33 billion (!) in profits.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/amyfeldman/2024/12/05/unitedhealthcare-denies-more-claims-than-other-insurers---angering-patients-and-health-systems/
Not to mention, small businesses employ 50% of Americans, and 75% of small businesses employ less than 50 people, and are therefore exempt from having to provide health insurance for their employees.
If you're not having problems with your health insurance that's great for you, but entirely anecdotal.
#FakeNews #Lies
What kind of person actually defends our healthcare system? It's clearly the worst in the Western world. We spend the most by far on healthcare, yet have the highest infant mortality rate, and one of the lowest life expectancy's.
Quote from: #UnleashSean on December 13, 2024, 03:29:46 PMWhat kind of person actually defends our healthcare system? It's clearly the worst in the Western world. We spend the most by far on healthcare, yet have the highest infant mortality rate, and one of the lowest life expectancy's.
It's why insurance companies and healthcare providers are able to laugh all the way to the bank, the ignorance and compliance of our society.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 13, 2024, 03:37:13 PMIt's why insurance companies and healthcare providers are able to laugh all the way to the bank, the ignorance and compliance of our society.
Well not anymore. Now they need armed guards. So our rates will go even higher!
Quote from: #UnleashSean on December 13, 2024, 03:42:11 PMWell not anymore. Now they need armed guards. So our rates will go even higher!
Our rates always go up. Our healthcare service always goes down. Eat the rich, baby
Quote from: real chili 83 on December 13, 2024, 12:48:38 PMReading this thread, you would think almost ALL medical insurance claims are denied.
The fact is, many, many plans are self funded by employers. It's employers who dictate what is covered and what isn't, outside of what is legally required to be covered. Health coverage is one of the largest costs employers face. They are constantly balancing what they can afford to cover with offering a competitive benefit package.
You can debate that better coverage will allow for lower costs long term if you can get healthier employees. There is also the issue of lifestyle is a choice...
In self funded plans, the insurance company does not dictate what should be paid, it is the plan design. Insurance companies get paid to process bills, and draw funds out of your account to cover them.
I have Anthem BCBS, and couldn't be happier with them. I've had some ongoing stuff over the past few years, which includes a couple of surgeries. They have been awesome. Do I wish they would cover Wegovy so I could lean on that crutch to shed some extra pounds? Heck yes, but I realize I own the root issue (too many Marquette specials with cheese and onions).
Sure, there are people with bad stories/experiences with their insurance. Some are well founded, but many are not...those people usually aren't telling you the full story. My point is that the generalizations going on here about ALL insurance companies being bad is just BS.
Wegovy is a crutch?
Quote from: real chili 83 on December 13, 2024, 01:39:56 PMMine is not anecdotal. It just doesn't fit your narrative.
I'm not sure you understand what anecdotal means
By nearly any metric, US healthcare is abysmal compared to peer nations. Insurances, among other variables, play a role in the rankings.
Is it a good idea to have a sector of society - healthcare - with inelastic demand be run using market principles?
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 13, 2024, 04:44:42 PMBy nearly any metric, US healthcare is abysmal compared to peer nations. Insurances, among other variables, play a role in the rankings.
Is it a good idea to have a sector of society - healthcare - with inelastic demand be run using market principles?
If you ask the market, yes!
Quote from: #UnleashSean on December 13, 2024, 03:29:46 PMone of the lowest life expectancy's.
That's because we're FAT and people of a certain persuasion have insisted that we have to approach our FAT problem with FAT is beautiful and there's nothing wrong with being FAT. Everyone knows better, of course, but if you don't go through with the kabuki dance you're a bigot, a FAT shamer, etc.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2024, 04:56:18 PMThat's because we're FAT and people of a certain persuasion have insisted that we have to approach our FAT problem with FAT is beautiful and there's nothing wrong with being FAT. Everyone knows better, of course, but if you don't go through with the kabuki dance you're a bigot, a FAT shamer, etc.
I'm glad we're for banning extra large drinks now and providing healthy meals for kids. GTFOH blaming fat shaming fear you raging hypocrite
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2024, 04:56:18 PMThat's because we're FAT and people of a certain persuasion have insisted that we have to approach our FAT problem with FAT is beautiful and there's nothing wrong with being FAT. Everyone knows better, of course, but if you don't go through with the kabuki dance you're a bigot, a FAT shamer, etc.
Yea, no.
It's much more likely due to the lack of accessible medical care in our country.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 13, 2024, 04:59:25 PMI'm glad we're for banning extra large drinks now and providing healthy meals for kids. GTFOH blaming fat shaming fear you raging hypocrite
Nobody forces anyone to eat a double whopper or a big gulp. And when schools offer healthy choices a lot of the kids want nothing to do with them. We pay for people's bad choices - and I'm OK with it because I think everyone should have choices. But for one at least be honest about it. And if you can't - Go f**k yourself.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2024, 05:12:24 PMNobody forces anyone to eat a double whopper or a big gulp. And when schools offer healthy choices a lot of the kids want nothing to do with them. We pay for people's bad choices - and I'm OK with it because I think everyone should have choices. But for one at least be honest about it. And if you can't - Go f**k yourself.
I'm sure you're fine with most things until it happens to
you or
your family.
I certainly hope that never happens.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2024, 05:12:24 PMNobody forces anyone to eat a double whopper or a big gulp. And when schools offer healthy choices a lot of the kids want nothing to do with them. We pay for people's bad choices - and I'm OK with it because I think everyone should have choices. But for one at least be honest about it. And if you can't - Go f**k yourself.
Too bad we don't have affordable health choices. Blame the fat people, well, the fact we can't shame them anyway. Or some other BS culture war talking point.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 13, 2024, 05:28:29 PMI'm sure you're fine with most things until it happens to you or your family.
I certainly hope that never happens.
Lots of struggles in my family - cancer, drug abuse, alcoholism/depression, obesity, learning disabilities and many more. My older brother couldn't beat his, committed suicide more than 20 years ago. I still mourn him, but if I held anyone other than him responsible for what happened he would haunt me from his grave. My younger brother quit drinking almost 30 years ago and still goes to meetings 4 or 5 times a week. I gave up the Budweiser 24 years ago and couldn't be happier. My wife has (at least up to now) beaten breast cancer and melanoma. I could go for several paragraphs but enough. Most of our challenges (and gifts) came from our gene pool. We celebrated the latter and tried our best to deal with the former without complaint. We thought (and still think) of ourselves as incredibly lucky. And that hurdles overcome are what people are ultimately judged by. So I'm fine with what life's brought me, the happy and the sad.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2024, 06:30:14 PMLots of struggles in my family - cancer, drug abuse, alcoholism/depression, obesity, learning disabilities and many more. My older brother couldn't beat his, committed suicide more than 20 years ago. I still mourn him, but if I held anyone other than him responsible for what happened he would haunt me from his grave. My younger brother quit drinking almost 30 years ago and still goes to meetings 4 or 5 times a week. I gave up the Budweiser 24 years ago and couldn't be happier. My wife has (at least up to now) beaten breast cancer and melanoma. I could go for several paragraphs but enough. Most of our challenges (and gifts) came from our gene pool. We celebrated the latter and tried our best to deal with the former without complaint. We thought (and still think) of ourselves as incredibly lucky. And that hurdles overcome are what people are ultimately judged by. So I'm fine with what life's brought me, the happy and the sad.
You do realize if companies like uhc get their way, your going to die right? Everything you listed will be used a pre-existing condition and they will deny claims.
Luckily for you, the federal government CURRENTLY makes this illegal.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2024, 05:12:24 PMNobody forces anyone to eat a double whopper or a big gulp. And when schools offer healthy choices a lot of the kids want nothing to do with them. We pay for people's bad choices - and I'm OK with it because I think everyone should have choices. But for one at least be honest about it. And if you can't - Go f**k yourself.
Do you support subsidizing healthy choices for our country's extensive food deserts where grocery providers have left due to it being unprofitable and regulating ultra processed foods that are the significantly lower cost option than a fresh bag of tomatoes? I bet not.
Those families should just not feed their kids at all vs a Burger King or something but also not be able to go to the doctor because their inability to provide a healthy diet is too expensive on the health care system.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2024, 06:30:14 PMLots of struggles in my family - cancer, drug abuse, alcoholism/depression, obesity, learning disabilities and many more. My older brother couldn't beat his, committed suicide more than 20 years ago. I still mourn him, but if I held anyone other than him responsible for what happened he would haunt me from his grave. My younger brother quit drinking almost 30 years ago and still goes to meetings 4 or 5 times a week. I gave up the Budweiser 24 years ago and couldn't be happier. My wife has (at least up to now) beaten breast cancer and melanoma. I could go for several paragraphs but enough. Most of our challenges (and gifts) came from our gene pool. We celebrated the latter and tried our best to deal with the former without complaint. We thought (and still think) of ourselves as incredibly lucky. And that hurdles overcome are what people are ultimately judged by. So I'm fine with what life's brought me, the happy and the sad.
"I got mine, f all the rest of you"
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2024, 05:12:24 PMNobody forces anyone to eat a double whopper or a big gulp.
they are eating the dogs. The people that came in, they are eating the cats. They're eating –
Fucking fat people. Thank God Trump will soon deport them all. That'll booster the life expectancy.
IBTL
Mutaman, you either missed the memo or you only want to post once every three weeks.
Quote from: tower912 on December 14, 2024, 07:24:56 AMMutaman, you either missed the memo or you only want to post once every three weeks.
The mods don't read scoop, they just post stickies
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2024, 05:12:24 PMNobody forces anyone to eat a double whopper or a big gulp.
There is a fraternity that makes their pledges eat a couch, so I'm sure there is one out there that makes them eat a double whopper and a big gulp.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2024, 06:30:14 PMLots of struggles in my family - cancer, drug abuse, alcoholism/depression, obesity, learning disabilities and many more. My older brother couldn't beat his, committed suicide more than 20 years ago. I still mourn him, but if I held anyone other than him responsible for what happened he would haunt me from his grave. My younger brother quit drinking almost 30 years ago and still goes to meetings 4 or 5 times a week. I gave up the Budweiser 24 years ago and couldn't be happier. My wife has (at least up to now) beaten breast cancer and melanoma. I could go for several paragraphs but enough. Most of our challenges (and gifts) came from our gene pool. We celebrated the latter and tried our best to deal with the former without complaint. We thought (and still think) of ourselves as incredibly lucky. And that hurdles overcome are what people are ultimately judged by. So I'm fine with what life's brought me, the happy and the sad.
It's strange then that you want to draw the line at obesity, even though overeating isn't the sole cause of obesity. We treat all sorts of illness and injuries that were due, in part, to the actions of the patient.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 14, 2024, 10:38:29 AMIt's strange then that you want to draw the line at obesity, even though overeating isn't the sole cause of obesity. We treat all sorts of illness and injuries that were due, in part, to the actions of the patient.
Can we call them names and mock them?
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 14, 2024, 10:38:29 AMIt's strange then that you want to draw the line at obesity, even though overeating isn't the sole cause of obesity. We treat all sorts of illness and injuries that were due, in part, to the actions of the patient.
Geez, tell me about it. So many of my peers and co-workers dealing with obscure cancers, heart disease (me), though there is no family history, joint replacements (not Rico and Newsdreams type of joints) all due to the actions of the patients.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/dec/13/florida-woman-health-insurance-threat
Swift justice for "threats" to corporations
https://x.com/lukewgoldstein/status/1867590304460681269?t=VKjUWmHCs1KBPIbCuVSgxA&s=19
Make sure the CEOs feel safe
Quote from: #UnleashSean on December 13, 2024, 05:03:10 PMYea, no.
It's much more likely due to the lack of accessible medical care in our country.
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadians-faced-longest-ever-health-care-wait-times-in-2024-study-finds
https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-people-skip-medical-treatment-due-to-healthcare-costs/
There are issues with healthcare regardless if its single payer or private insurance.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on December 14, 2024, 01:08:50 PMhttps://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadians-faced-longest-ever-health-care-wait-times-in-2024-study-finds
https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-people-skip-medical-treatment-due-to-healthcare-costs/
There are issues with healthcare regardless if its single payer or private insurance.
No kidding.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on December 14, 2024, 01:08:50 PMhttps://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadians-faced-longest-ever-health-care-wait-times-in-2024-study-finds
https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-people-skip-medical-treatment-due-to-healthcare-costs/
There are issues with healthcare regardless if its single payer or private insurance.
I love this is the go-to-defense for corporate bootlickers.
American healthcare sucks but what about!
Eat the rich
Yes, there are problems with single payer. Ideally, we, as humans, should be striving to improve and develop something better. In so many ways and things.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on December 14, 2024, 01:08:50 PMhttps://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadians-faced-longest-ever-health-care-wait-times-in-2024-study-finds
https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-people-skip-medical-treatment-due-to-healthcare-costs/
There are issues with healthcare regardless if its single payer or private insurance.
Because the other one has problems we should continue with a clearly broken system?
It's like the argument against robotic cars not having 100% safety record.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2024, 06:30:14 PMLots of struggles in my family - cancer, drug abuse, alcoholism/depression, obesity, learning disabilities and many more. My older brother couldn't beat his, committed suicide more than 20 years ago. I still mourn him, but if I held anyone other than him responsible for what happened he would haunt me from his grave. My younger brother quit drinking almost 30 years ago and still goes to meetings 4 or 5 times a week. I gave up the Budweiser 24 years ago and couldn't be happier. My wife has (at least up to now) beaten breast cancer and melanoma. I could go for several paragraphs but enough. Most of our challenges (and gifts) came from our gene pool. We celebrated the latter and tried our best to deal with the former without complaint. We thought (and still think) of ourselves as incredibly lucky. And that hurdles overcome are what people are ultimately judged by. So I'm fine with what life's brought me, the happy and the sad.
You're not talking about the same thing as I am. Has anyone in your family had their financial well being ruined from health care costs?
Quote from: muwarrior69 on December 14, 2024, 01:08:50 PMhttps://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadians-faced-longest-ever-health-care-wait-times-in-2024-study-finds
https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-people-skip-medical-treatment-due-to-healthcare-costs/
There are issues with healthcare regardless if its single payer or private insurance.
I have a great healthcare plan and I still had to wait 9 months for a scan on my shoulder.
And then later I had to cancel that appointment due to a schedule conflict.
I haven't bothered to set a new appointment since it'll likely be at least 9 more months.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 14, 2024, 01:34:25 PMI have a great healthcare plan and I still had to wait 9 months for a scan on my shoulder.
And then later I had to cancel that appointment due to a schedule conflict.
I haven't bothered to set a new appointment since it'll likely be at least 9 more months.
Did you mean to quote my post?
Sorry about your long wait
Hochul should have the same concern for the victims of the violence by these CEOs. They allow people (lots of them) to die, suffer more, and cause bankruptcy and Homelessness.
Violence begets violence.
Quote from: Jockey on December 14, 2024, 02:28:46 PMHochul should have the same concern for the victims of the violence by these CEOs. They allow people (lots of them) to die, suffer more, and cause bankruptcy and Homelessness.
Violence begets violence.
Those people don't give enough political contributions
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 14, 2024, 12:26:06 PMhttps://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/dec/13/florida-woman-health-insurance-threat
Swift justice for "threats" to corporations
https://x.com/lukewgoldstein/status/1867590304460681269?t=VKjUWmHCs1KBPIbCuVSgxA&s=19
Make sure the CEOs feel safe
"We protect everybody on the streets of New York, not just CEOs" - Hochul
But you only police protection and state assistance to CEO's while people are literally murdered daily in the city.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 14, 2024, 10:38:29 AMIt's strange then that you want to draw the line at obesity, even though overeating isn't the sole cause of obesity. We treat all sorts of illness and injuries that were due, in part, to the actions of the patient.
I don't draw the line at obesity. It's just #1. Lots of other activities of choice that cost everyone - smoking, alcohol and other drugs leading the way.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2024, 04:01:01 PMI don't draw the line at obesity. It's just #1. Lots of other activities of choice that cost everyone - smoking, alcohol and other drugs leading the way.
So what do we do about former smokers who get lung cancer? Do we just shrug our shoulders and say "hey, it was your choice to smoke?"
Should we provide support for smokers who want to stop so they can improve their health?
Nobody smokes or drinks in Europe.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 14, 2024, 04:04:31 PMSo what do we do about former smokers who get lung cancer? Do we just shrug our shoulders and say "hey, it was your choice to smoke?"
Should we provide support for smokers who want to stop so they can improve their health?
Of course, never said we shouldn't.
Sean said that our Healthcare system was at fault for the US having lower life expectancies than some other countries. I pointed out that the biggest reason for lower life expectancies wasn't the Healthcare system - it was that, as a country (and compared to other countries) we're overweight. Add to that we don't exercise enough.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2024, 05:37:57 PMOf course, never said we shouldn't.
Sean said that our Healthcare system was at fault for the US having lower life expectancies than some other countries. I pointed out that the biggest reason for lower life expectancies wasn't the Healthcare system - it was that, as a country (and compared to other countries) we're overweight. Add to that we don't exercise enough.
Except our infant mortality rates are also awful. We went from top ten in the world around 1950 to around 60th. All of Western Europe has lapped us.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 14, 2024, 05:46:10 PMExcept our infant mortality rates are also awful. We went from top ten in the world around 1950 to around 60th. All of Western Europe has lapped us.
Babies are fat
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2024, 05:37:57 PMOf course, never said we shouldn't.
Sean said that our Healthcare system was at fault for the US having lower life expectancies than some other countries. I pointed out that the biggest reason for lower life expectancies wasn't the Healthcare system - it was that, as a country (and compared to other countries) we're overweight. Add to that we don't exercise enough.
You know what would help combat obesity? Easier and regular access to healthcare.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 14, 2024, 05:46:10 PMExcept our infant mortality rates are also awful. We went from top ten in the world around 1950 to around 60th. All of Western Europe has lapped us.
OK. Never said our Healthcare system wasn't to blame there.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2024, 06:12:55 PMOK. Never said our Healthcare system wasn't to blame there.
Infant mortality is a variable in life expectancy
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2024, 06:12:55 PMOK. Never said our Healthcare system wasn't to blame there.
Don't you think that if babies are born into a poor health system, that it matters down the line?
I understood the "access and innovation" argument that was made 15-20 years ago, but that's just not the case now. Our health system is terrible for a country as wealthy as ours. I am lucky to have good insurance and make enough to cover what we need to. A lot of people don't.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 14, 2024, 06:14:02 PMInfant mortality is a variable in life expectancy
Quote from: #UnleashSean on December 14, 2024, 05:49:03 PMYou know what would help combat obesity? Easier and regular access to healthcare.
Not nearly as much as self control, exercise, etc.. Look, our Healthcare system deserves some blame, but don't you believe in any personal responsibility?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2024, 07:18:09 PMNot nearly as much as self control, exercise, etc.. Look, our Healthcare system deserves some blame, but don't you believe in any personal responsibility?
Yeah those infants need to understand when the going gets tough, the tough get going
Pull themselves up by their diaper straps and get off the dole.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2024, 07:18:09 PMNot nearly as much as self control, exercise, etc.. Look, our Healthcare system deserves some blame, but don't you believe in any personal responsibility?
Being responsible for your fitness level is a lot easier when you have money and access to reasonably affordable healthy food. Childhood obesity is significantly higher among poor families who also have less access to affordable or company sponsored healthcare
Quote from: BM1090 on December 15, 2024, 12:02:36 AMBeing responsible for your fitness level is a lot easier when you have money and access to reasonably affordable healthy food. Childhood obesity is significantly higher among poor families who also have less access to affordable or company sponsored healthcare
Don't be poor
Perhaps we should stop the practice of employer sponsored health insurance. I'm wondering if it is like the college loan practice where only the student loses out.
Quote from: #UnleashSean on December 14, 2024, 05:49:03 PMYou know what would help combat obesity? Easier and regular access to healthcare.
Gym membership being part of health care plans would also help.
Why didn't the Tutsis just move if their neighbors didn't like them? - LT
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 15, 2024, 09:36:51 AMGym membership being part of health care plans would also help.
A lot of plans already offer discounted memberships.
If they did decide to completely cover gym memberships, there would need to be some sort of attendance requirement. A significant number of members don't even go to the gym on a regular basis even when they are paying for it themselves.
My Medicare Part B insurer picks up my Y membership via the Silver Sneakers program.
My past employer picked up my fitness club membership with the stipulation that if you didn't go at least once a month you would lose it.
My wife is a registered dietician with WIC.
Educating people on healthy items to eat is a part of it.
Fortunately, fresh vegetables and fruits are very reasonably priced.
I have to assume it is because, it has a short shelf life, so make it reasonable to buy versus spoil.
But if someone does not see the value of fresh fruits and vegetables, they will just buy what they always do regardless.
WIC can't do it all, but it helps.
nm
Quote from: warriorchick on December 15, 2024, 06:57:40 PMA lot of plans already offer discounted memberships.
If they did decide to completely cover gym memberships, there would need to be some sort of attendance requirement. A significant number of members don't even go to the gym on a regular basis even when they are paying for it themselves.
I had a previous plan that covered a portion of my membership as long as I went a minimum of times per month (it was a reasonable amount, 12 or something like that). My current plan offers discounted memberships that have no attendance requirement for gyms and discounted plans at specialty gyms. For example, I can get an 8 classes/month plan at Orange Theory for $40/month less than if I went into the studio to sign up.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2024, 07:18:09 PMNot nearly as much as self control, exercise, etc.. Look, our Healthcare system deserves some blame, but don't you believe in any personal responsibility?
That reminds me of stories my dad would tell of patients who refused to quit smoking despite his strong advice to do so. People have their vices and too often refuse to give them up despite the health benefits of doing so. I can personally attest to giving up pop after experiencing weight gain and getting multiple cavities after pounding all of the free stuff available at my office for an extended period. I'm not a big government person but I am not opposed to sin taxes on unhealthy products; it worked with cigarettes.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 16, 2024, 10:03:23 AMThat reminds me of stories my dad would tell of patients who refused to quit smoking despite his strong advice to do so. People have their vices and too often refuse to give them up despite the health benefits of doing so. I can personally attest to giving up pop after experiencing weight gain and getting multiple cavities after pounding all of the free stuff available at my office for an extended period. I'm not a big government person but I am not opposed to sin taxes on unhealthy products; it worked with cigarettes.
Europeans smoke much more than US. But their life expectancy is better.
We have adopted a system where insurance providers are incentivized to deny payment for care. Profits over patients. De facto death panels.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 16, 2024, 11:36:13 AMEuropeans smoke much more than US. But their life expectancy is better.
The EU as an body has a percentage of 19.7% of persons over 15 who smoke whereas the US is at 19.8%.
Lack of ultra processed foods is probably a significant factor in that. In the US, UPFs make up about 60% of daily caloric intake, while in Europe, they range from 14–44%. UPFs include snacks, soft drinks, cookies, candy, and processed meats
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 16, 2024, 11:51:49 AMThe EU as an body has a percentage of 19.7% of persons over 15 who smoke whereas the US is at 19.8%.
Lack of ultra processed foods is probably a significant factor in that. In the US, UPFs make up about 60% of daily caloric intake, while in Europe, they range from 14–44%. UPFs include snacks, soft drinks, cookies, candy, and processed meats
What's your source for smoking percentages?
Good news for CEO's feeling unsafe:
https://bsky.app/profile/kenklippenstein.bsky.social/post/3ldgyd7bdrk22
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 16, 2024, 01:21:27 PMWhat's your source for smoking percentages?
Here's the Europe data: https://www.euronews.com/health/2023/08/14/smoking-in-europe-which-countries-are-the-most-and-least-addicted-to-tobacco-and-vaping#:~:text=Daily%20percentage%20of%20smokers%20among%20persons%20aged%2015%20and%20over&text=Source:%20Eurostat.,as%20well%20as%20public%20places.
Here's the US data:https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/php/data-statistics/adult-data-cigarettes/index.html#:~:text=Tobacco%20product%20use%20remains%20the,reported%20current%20tobacco%20product%20use.
Ireland has dropped significantly over the past 20 years. When I was there in the early 2000s and read about smoking bans in pubs I laughed at the idea it would ever work, but since it was implemented in 2004 the percentage of smokers has dropped from 27%.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 16, 2024, 01:21:27 PMWhat's your source for smoking percentages?
What was yours when you claimed Europeans smoked much more?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 16, 2024, 02:29:50 PMWhat was yours when you claimed Europeans smoked much more?
11% in the US from 2023 CDC report based on 2022 data
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhis/earlyrelease/earlyrelease202304.pdf
24% in Europe according to EU Commission survey
https://www.euronews.com/health/2024/07/16/nearly-a-quarter-of-the-eu-population-still-smokes-according-to-new-research#:~:text=Nearly%20a%20quarter%20(24%20per,European%20coalition%20Smoke%20Free%20Partnership.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 16, 2024, 02:29:50 PMWhat was yours when you claimed Europeans smoked much more?
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 16, 2024, 02:46:29 PM11% in the US from 2023 CDC report based on 2022 data
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhis/earlyrelease/earlyrelease202304.pdf
24% in Europe according to EU Commission survey
https://www.euronews.com/health/2024/07/16/nearly-a-quarter-of-the-eu-population-still-smokes-according-to-new-research#:~:text=Nearly%20a%20quarter%20(24%20per,European%20coalition%20Smoke%20Free%20Partnership.
LOLOLOLOLOL....
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 16, 2024, 02:46:29 PM11% in the US from 2023 CDC report based on 2022 data
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhis/earlyrelease/earlyrelease202304.pdf
24% in Europe according to EU Commission survey
https://www.euronews.com/health/2024/07/16/nearly-a-quarter-of-the-eu-population-still-smokes-according-to-new-research#:~:text=Nearly%20a%20quarter%20(24%20per,European%20coalition%20Smoke%20Free%20Partnership.
Are Hoyle's numbers from the CDC re the US so much higher because it includes people who vape? Or is there a different reason?
And how do you explain his numbers being so different from yours re the EU?
Thanks in advance.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 16, 2024, 03:42:50 PMAre Hoyle's numbers from the CDC re the US so much higher because it includes people who vape? Or is there a different reason?
And how do you explain his numbers being so different from yours re the EU?
Thanks in advance.
Appreciate you not asking Hoyle why his numbers are different.
You're welcome.
2018 updated data from WHO:
https://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.sdg.3-a-viz?lang=en
USA 21+%
Europe 28+%
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 16, 2024, 03:42:50 PMAre Hoyle's numbers from the CDC re the US so much higher because it includes people who vape? Or is there a different reason?
And how do you explain his numbers being so different from yours re the EU?
Thanks in advance.
My CDC link includes any use of any tobacco product, including vapes, cigars, pipes (I guess Ziggy is still alive and kicking), and smokeless tobacco.
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/media/pdfs/2024/09/cdc-osh-ncis-data-report-508.pdf
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 16, 2024, 03:50:48 PMAppreciate you not asking Hoyle why his numbers are different.
You're welcome.
WTF?
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 16, 2024, 04:45:35 PMMy CDC link includes any use of any tobacco product, including vapes, cigars, pipes (I guess Ziggy is still alive and kicking), and smokeless tobacco.
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/media/pdfs/2024/09/cdc-osh-ncis-data-report-508.pdf
Love the signature. Love the irony of it coming from Deane.
Quote from: 4 Falling Turds on December 16, 2024, 07:39:18 PMWatch your language please
> Sundowning is a state of confusion that can occur in the late afternoon and evening, and can cause a variety of behaviors, including aggression, anxiety, and confusion. Cursing can occur in people with dementia, especially as the disease progresses and the person's ability to express themselves verbally declines.
Sorry if I was being ableist 😔
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 16, 2024, 03:42:50 PMAre Hoyle's numbers from the CDC re the US so much higher because it includes people who vape? Or is there a different reason?
And how do you explain his numbers being so different from yours re the EU?
Thanks in advance.
Pretty simple. Hoyle cherry picked data to support his stance.
He used a metric from the EU that is based on those that smoke cigarettes daily (19.7), and compared it to Americans who use any Tobacco product (including vaping, and not even daily use) (19.8).
If you use any metric that compares apples to apples, tobacco, or smoking is significantly higher in Europe.
Quote from: forgetful on December 16, 2024, 08:23:26 PMPretty simple. Hoyle cherry picked data to support his stance.
He used a metric from the EU that is based on those that smoke cigarettes daily (19.7), and compared it to Americans who use any Tobacco product (including vaping, and not even daily use) (19.8).
If you use any metric that compares apples to apples, tobacco, or smoking is significantly higher in Europe.
Thank you
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 16, 2024, 02:29:50 PMWhat was yours when you claimed Europeans smoked much more?
This will end well
Hearing a lotta people posting about wanting to smoke Luigi's pole