1. Like looking in a bigger, stronger, deeper, mirror. ISU runs a whole lot of stuff, both on offense and defense, similar to what MU does.
2. I think a healthy MU wins this game in Milwaukee or on a neutral floor.
3. A 6'5 defensive stopper would have been useful off the bench.
4. Especially after Chase rolled his ankle.
5. Cyclones made it rain at home. As they should. And they did not turn the ball over.
6. DO and Parham are ballers. Still some freshman moments, but they are going to be fun. Crunch time minutes.
7. Stevie got beat up early. Defensive beast in the second half. That steal that was called his third foul was clean. About those free throws...
8. I want Caedin to look and play like Jackson as a sophomore/junior/senior. A brute. That pick was a good start.
9. MU had opportunities to get over the hump. Alas, Iowa State responded like a top 10 team at home and MU went frigid.
10. Yep, it was a shorthanded loss on the road to a top 10 team. I am not worried in the slightest. Get healthy, stay healthy, make 3s.
11. Beat Wisconsin.
This might be the best team we play all year. Got down big but we fought back. Love the energy.
This team can play with anyone.
Iowa State the better team tonight.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 04, 2024, 09:14:43 PMThis might be the best team we play all year. Got down big but we fought back. Love the energy.
This team can play with anyone.
Yep. Grind and win Saturday. Get healthy.
Kam 6-21, 1-5 from 3
Joplin 3-13, 2-7 from 3 and 3 TO's
Not beating many top-10 teams with those lines from those 2
Given the circumstances I thought it was a good effort. The experience the freshman got will be invaluable. Not going to rag on any guys who didn't play well. We need them Saturday. Speaking of...hard for me to hate ISU that much when they smothered Bucky in Milwaukee in the NCAAs a few years ago. Seeing those Walmart badger tears was a great sight.
Jop, Jop, Jop. He's a senior and one of the most exhilarating and exasperating players I can ever remember.
So much promise from the frosh - and so many frosh mistakes. They are gonna be a good class.
The class ahead of them, I dunno - Zaide out tonight and Tre making me wonder.
Props to IoSt - they will be around in March.
Pretty much a loss as expected. Won't hurt us if we get the next two.
Then it's BE time.
Owens and Parham are beasts. The program is in good hands.
Wouldn't mind setting up something regular with ISU.
Can we sacrifice Jop and Tre to the injury gods and get back two net positives
TBH with the way we shot and got to the line compared to them the fact we got it tied with 10 to go is pretty incredible.
This year has gone well. We are really good. Georgia and Maryland(Purdue is known) look like great wins.
Honestly the only true team downside is Norman is still simply just not a guy. He's a last resort and having him needed with Chase and Zaide out is not good.
We cannot have Chase out more too.
This game will pay dividends assuming Chase and Ben aren't out for an extended period of time.
Saturday is the season.
Iowa St. Isn't going to lose many games at Hilton. That said we could not get over the hump when we tied it 61-61. Too many missed chippies, too much pressure on Kam make every play. Gilbert was terrific and they are a very solid team.
So Tre is the new scapegoat? Sad. There are no scapegoats tonight. Shorthanded on the road against a top 10 team.
Quote from: tower912 on December 04, 2024, 09:23:03 PMSo Tre is the new scapegoat? Sad. There are no scapegoats tonight. Shorthanded on the road against a top 10 team.
Tower, Tre isn't the reason we lost... but he's yet to show he's capable of contributing to a winning team. At least a high major.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 04, 2024, 09:16:58 PMKam 6-21, 1-5 from 3
Joplin 3-13, 2-7 from 3 and 3 TO's
Not beating many top-10 teams with those lines from those 2
Both guys played hard
Quote from: tower912 on December 04, 2024, 09:23:03 PMSo Tre is the new scapegoat? Sad. There are no scapegoats tonight. Shorthanded on the road against a top 10 team.
New??
He hasn't shown a pulse all year on offense. Its objectively true. Is that disallowed to be pointed out?
Not every guy can be improve or contribute. But fact is Norman is clearly the guy out of place right now.
Quote from: Apolitical Warrior on December 04, 2024, 09:20:27 PMCan we sacrifice Jop and Tre to the injury gods and get back two net positives
Shut up
This time next year, were gonna reflect and laugh at how middle school joplin looks when he wants to make a move in the paint. That 3 turnovers was generous. Dribbled head down into the paint. Got shots blocked, and just dropped easy boards to defenders or OB.
If we weren't short handed tonight he plays under 20 minutes tonight
Quote from: DoctorV on December 04, 2024, 09:24:35 PMBoth guys played hard
They did but Jop seemed a little jumpy emotionally to me. Their physicality gave him some probs. We need Jop moving forward.
Rough night shooting from Kam but he was great otherwise. That'll happen on the road against a great time and can't complain about many of the looks.
Losing Ross was big and not having Zaide defensively also hurt.
Some bad decisions and defense from Owens and Parham but overall they were great and showed no fear. Great sign for the rest of this season and going forward.
Need more from Jop and Ben.
Iowa State is a good team.
Good teams make you look bad.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 04, 2024, 09:22:05 PMThis game will pay dividends assuming Chase and Ben aren't out for an extended period of time.
Did Gold get hurt too? I didn't see that.
I think it will be the best team MU sees this season until deep in the tourney.
Quote from: jfp61 on December 04, 2024, 09:27:13 PMThis time next year, were gonna reflect and laugh at how middle school joplin looks when he wants to make a move in the paint. That 3 turnovers was generous. Dribbled head down into the paint. Got shots blocked, and just dropped easy boards to defenders or OB.
If we weren't short handed tonight he plays under 20 minutes tonight
That's a bit harsh.
He had 3 blocks and 6 boards.
He's always gonna be a risk dribbling, but he's the 2nd leading scorer on the team.
I've said it once and I'll say it again, David Joplin is far and away the biggest xfactor to this seasons success, for good or bad.
Tonight our two best scorers were off, and the 1H defense was matador.
The surprising productivity from the frosh kept it respectable, but that won't be common.
Need Kam and Jop to ball to have a special season
Love how Jop has played this year, but, with an assist from a ghost call on a Stevie steal in a tie game, all the momentum we got tying the game went away when Jop decided it was his turn.
Outside of the spurt to tie the game, Kam missed shots he makes 90% of the time. Not worried about it, but could've changed this game.
Freshman are awesome. Royce will need to learn to move the ball, but better this than being afraid to score.
Iowa State is really good.
Hope our guys are healthy Saturday. Ben didn't return to the game after the under 4 timeout when he limped off, did he? Hope him and Chase are good to go.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 04, 2024, 09:14:43 PMThis might be the best team we play all year. Got down big but we fought back. Love the energy.
This team can play with anyone.
Yep. I'm encouraged by this game more than anything.
Quote from: DoctorV on December 04, 2024, 09:32:43 PMJop to have a special season
It was a bit harsh, but i disagree with this, Chase and Stevie are both just better than him. And the minutes should probably reflect it. Too many turnovers without generating enough.
As royce and owens get better it will be more apparent.
Quote from: tower912 on December 04, 2024, 09:23:03 PMSo Tre is the new scapegoat? Sad. There are no scapegoats tonight. Shorthanded on the road against a top 10 team.
More like a separate subject than a scape goat for this game. He has not played well offensively this year or last and does not show much promise to this point. Hope his shoulder heals and that is the reason for his ineffectiveness. Time will tell.
Both freshman look like potential studs. Not worth worrying about but they'll get a butt load of cash thrown at them in the offseason I'd think.
Quote from: jfp61 on December 04, 2024, 09:27:13 PMThis time next year, were gonna reflect and laugh at how middle school joplin looks when he wants to make a move in the paint. That 3 turnovers was generous. Dribbled head down into the paint. Got shots blocked, and just dropped easy boards to defenders or OB.
If we weren't short handed tonight he plays under 20 minutes tonight
Yep. He should not be relied upon to handle the ball or make decisions. Not that type of player. Catch and shoot, occasional post up and occasional midrange jumper. Play some D, rebound and get it to a guard. I like Jop. He just has to stay in his lane.
No post play is going to hurt us all year long. Especially when we have limited penetration like we had tonight. We had guys constantly being stopped and killing their dribble and throwing it back out to the perimeter.
Gold is an outside offensive player only and Caeden isn't a factor yet. Teams will use this Iowa State game as a blueprint on how to stop Marquette which is to stop our penetration and limit their own turnovers.
In general we're not a very smart team either with lots of senseless turnovers (mostly from Joplin) and lots of critical defensive breakdowns... often with only seconds left on the shot clock.
Need to be better at free throws also.
Lots to improve on. Glad the guys finally had a run where they tied the game in the 2nd half. I should have turned it off at that point as what was to follow was a bunch of missed easy shots to take the lead again. ISU took advantage of all the misses and went on a 10 to 0 run to break the game open again. Ball game! 🙄🤦�♂️
Regroup and beat Wisconsin! 👏
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on December 04, 2024, 09:42:35 PMMore like a separate subject than a scape goat for this game. He has not played well offensively this year or last and does not show much promise to this point. Hope his shoulder heals and that is the reason for his ineffectiveness. Time will tell.
Agree, not a scapegoat. But not showing signs of progression at all. Defense is suspect, and he had a wide open 3 coming down the stretch that barely got backboard. Still plays like a frosh.
Quote from: duanewade on December 04, 2024, 09:56:50 PMNo post play is going to hurt us all year long. Especially when we have limited penetration like we had tonight. We had guys constantly being stopped and killing their dribble and throwing it back out to the perimeter.
Gold is an outside offensive player only and Caeden isn't a factor yet. Teams will use this Iowa State game as a blueprint on how to stop Marquette which is to stop our penetration and limit their own turnovers.
In general we're not a very smart team either with lots of senseless turnovers (mostly from Joplin) and lots of critical defensive breakdowns... often with only seconds left on the shot clock.
Need to be better at free throws also.
Lots to improve on. Glad the guys finally had a run where they tied the game in the 2nd half. I should have turned it off at that point as what was to follow was a bunch of missed easy shots to take the lead again. ISU took advantage of all the misses and went on a 10 to 0 run to break the game open again. Ball game! 🙄🤦�♂️
Regroup and beat Wisconsin! 👏
Did Iowa St. have any post play tonight?
Quote from: duanewade on December 04, 2024, 09:56:50 PMNo post play is going to hurt us all year long. Especially when we have limited penetration like we had tonight. We had guys constantly being stopped and killing their dribble and throwing it back out to the perimeter.
Gold is an outside offensive player only and Caeden isn't a factor yet. Teams will use this Iowa State game as a blueprint on how to stop Marquette which is to stop our penetration and limit their own turnovers.
In general we're not a very smart team either with lots of senseless turnovers (mostly from Joplin) and lots of critical defensive breakdowns... often with only seconds left on the shot clock.
Need to be better at free throws also.
Lots to improve on. Glad the guys finally had a run where they tied the game in the 2nd half. I should have turned it off at that point as what was to follow was a bunch of missed easy shots to take the lead again. ISU took advantage of all the misses and went on a 10 to 0 run to break the game open again. Ball game! 🙄🤦�♂️
Regroup and beat Wisconsin! 👏
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on December 04, 2024, 09:59:21 PMDid Iowa St. have any post play tonight?
Exactly. I'm more concerned with our interior defense .
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on December 04, 2024, 09:34:28 PMYep. I'm encouraged by this game more than anything.
You nailed it, Shooter.
I'm bummed if Ross and/or Gold has to miss any games, but otherwise almost all positive thoughts. I mean, we hung in there, shorthanded, on the road, and rallied big-time against a real good team.
I'm especially psyched about our freshmen's future, and I agree with those who say this could pay tremendous dividends later in the season.
Related:
Owens is shooting .875 from behind the arc!
I'm both pleased with the effort and very worried about the roster.
We have a gauntlet ahead and are very banged up.
Sean and Zaide are likely out for a bit yet. Chase injured tonight, Ben possibly too.
That leaves Kam, Stevie, Jop, Caedin, Royce, Damarius, Tre. Shaka has said Stevie is playing through injuries and we know Tre had the shoulder issue. Damarius is somewhat fresh off a broken toe.
We are absolutely low on bodies and the ones we have are mostly banged up.
Gonna take some major guts to stay afloat. Time for some growth!
Not a horrible game, other than the potential injuries.
The past few years MU has gotten some big home non-con wins vs ranked teams. Tables turned in this one. Would have loved a W, but not concerned.
Quote from: jfp61 on December 04, 2024, 09:27:13 PMThis time next year, were gonna reflect and laugh at how middle school joplin looks when he wants to make a move in the paint. That 3 turnovers was generous. Dribbled head down into the paint. Got shots blocked, and just dropped easy boards to defenders or OB.
If we weren't short handed tonight he plays under 20 minutes tonight
. Jop is the easiest guy on the team to guard. Run him off the 3 and it's a Turnover or a miss... and he never passes and loves to drive. The games where he just catches and shoots he "plays" well. The games where he tries to drive are a disaster. I'll say it again. Remove $1000 of his NIL money each time he drives. He's out there to catch and shoot and rebound.
A lot like the SH game last year - tied it at 66-66 with 5:46 left after being down 10, but then didn't score for the 3.5 minutes and SH pushed to to 66-76. Oh well, it happens, hopefully the guys learn some lessons and Chase gets healthy soon.
Extra sucks because Duke and Creighton did us solids and we probably would've been #1 after crushing Bucky.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 04, 2024, 09:28:09 PMThey did but Jop seemed a little jumpy emotionally to me. Their physicality gave him some probs. We need Jop moving forward.
We need him but can he get consistently better. Let's hope so. He is who he is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3iKPY_3u4s
Good stuff, as usual. Iowa State is good, even tougher at home. Freshmen are gifted offensively, need to get better defensively. The steal/foul call on Stevie was big.
Quote from: WarriorFan on December 05, 2024, 12:41:17 AM. Jop is the easiest guy on the team to guard. Run him off the 3 and it's a Turnover or a miss... and he never passes and loves to drive. The games where he just catches and shoots he "plays" well. The games where he tries to drive are a disaster. I'll say it again. Remove $1000 of his NIL money each time he drives. He's out there to catch and shoot and rebound.
Glad you're not in charge. jesus.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 05, 2024, 06:33:51 AMGlad you're not in charge. jesus.
I'm a big fan of taking away his NIL money when he drives. It's a sure fire way to make him a better player
I would have titled the thread: The Attack of the Clones. I watched on Disney+.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on December 05, 2024, 06:39:07 AMI would have titled the thread: The Attack of the Clones. I watched on Disney+.
I thought about it. Seemed too cliche' to me.
Would love a rematch the second weekend of the tournament come March.
Quote from: Afroman on December 04, 2024, 09:19:39 PMOwens and Parham are beasts. The program is in good hands.
This was my biggest takeaway from the game. This was a road game against the No. 6 team in the country and we
needed them -- and neither shrank in the moment. They played well. Sure, there were freshman moments, but both seemed at ease in a very tense game. They're ready and both will be big contributors the rest of the season. In the past Shaka has had a tendency to have a
very short bench down the stretch in bigger games. I think that if Sean comes back, we'll see 9-10 guys getting minutes. Also, it's been said before, but it won't surprise me at all if the freshmen get more minutes than the sophmores.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 05, 2024, 06:38:11 AMI'm a big fan of taking away his NIL money when he drives. It's a sure fire way to make him a better player
Yeah we have some real high level coaching ideas here.
Anyway, I guess Joplin is the guy who we're going to blame for everything that goes wrong this year.
Not disappointed with the game last night. Once again, we saw a Shaka led team fight for an entire game. Thought there was a slight chance of winning going into the game and was hoping for a solid performance. With how ISU shot and the poor shooting by Kam and Jop, that easily could have been a 25-point blowout loss.
I am very excited about the young guys and think they will play big roles as the season moves on. IMO, Owens is one of the best looking freshmen that I can remember in a long time. The best part, it looks like his ceiling extremely high.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on December 05, 2024, 07:39:21 AMThis was my biggest takeaway from the game. This was a road game against the No. 6 team in the country and we needed them -- and neither shrank in the moment. They played well. Sure, there were freshman moments, but both seemed at ease in a very tense game. They're ready and both will be big contributors the rest of the season. In the past Shaka has had a tendency to have a very short bench down the stretch in bigger games. I think that if Sean comes back, we'll see 9-10 guys getting minutes. Also, it's been said before, but it won't surprise me at all if the freshmen get more minutes than the sophmores.
Yeah the two freshmen were instrumental in the run to tie it at 61. After an ISU timeout, Shaka had both of them come back on the floor, and they got a little overwhelmed when ISU turned up the intensity.
Such is life with freshmen. All part of the process. But the future is really bright with those two.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on December 05, 2024, 07:39:21 AMThis was my biggest takeaway from the game. This was a road game against the No. 6 team in the country and we needed them -- and neither shrank in the moment. They played well. Sure, there were freshman moments, but both seemed at ease in a very tense game. They're ready and both will be big contributors the rest of the season. In the past Shaka has had a tendency to have a very short bench down the stretch in bigger games. I think that if Sean comes back, we'll see 9-10 guys getting minutes. Also, it's been said before, but it won't surprise me at all if the freshmen get more minutes than the sophmores.
Agree. You just saved me the time of writing a post that would not have been as good as yours, so I will go with "me too". :D
I am encouraged to see so many scoopers having rational takes on the game. I was expecting a loss, but it was worse than I thought it would be. ISU Purdued us. So...now what? Learn from the chinks in our armor that have been exposed and be happy that Parham and Owen had really impressive performances and yes, I know...Freshman mistakes. Tell me something new. :o
One more "now what?...Take out the frustrations on Wisconsin Saturday.
I blame this one on my internet. We made our 10-0 comeback to tie the game, then my app froze. Took a minute or two and switching from Disney+ to Hulu to get it playing again and by that time, we were down 7. Damn you, AT&T!
Seriously though, no issues with last night. They got out to a hot start, fed off their crowd, and had an answer every time we tightened the score. I was glad to see us keep it close enough that we could've won it on the road without Ross, but after tying it at 61, we just didn't have quite enough in those last 10 minutes.
No matter who lined up on the other side of the court last night, Iowa State was the only team winning that one. When they are hitting 40% from deep, with that crowd behind them, just not gonna happen. You can also see why Big 12 fans call it Hilton Bulls**t. We were never going to go undefeated, let's just get the next couple, rock the Big East, and go into the NCAA Tournament as a 1-seed.
Quote from: BLWarrior91 on December 05, 2024, 07:25:42 AMWould love a rematch the second THIRD weekend of the tournament come March APRIL.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 05, 2024, 07:46:25 AMYeah we have some real high level coaching ideas here.
Anyway, I guess Joplin is the guy who we're going to blame for everything that goes wrong this year.
Was never a doubt he'd be the dude to shoulder the blame and he deserves the criticism for his performance last night but Kam's game disappointed me more but I can also give credit to ISU on that end.
Next game, onto, am I
Oh I am certainly not saying he's blameless, but bad Joplin gets the knuckleheads frothing on the game thread more than anyone.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 05, 2024, 08:42:07 AMOh I am certainly not saying he's blameless, but bad Joplin gets the knuckleheads frothing on the game thread more than anyone.
I don't know if it's unfair to be frustrated by the fact his decision making offensively hasn't improved a ton over the course of his career.
Especially when you compare it to the way Kam has evolved. He was an empty calorie scorer as a freshman and has really become a complete ballplayer.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 05, 2024, 08:52:30 AMI don't know if it's unfair to be frustrated by the fact his decision making offensively hasn't improved a ton over the course of his career.
Especially when you compare it to the way Kam has evolved. He was an empty calorie scorer as a freshman and has really become a complete ballplayer.
You are correct that some players evolve at different rates. And yes he can be frustrating. But some of the comments are laughably insane...and kind of fun to read in retrospect.
"Take away $1,000 of his NIL everytime he drives" is an all-timer.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 05, 2024, 07:46:25 AMYeah we have some real high level coaching ideas here.
Anyway, I guess Joplin is the guy who we're going to blame for everything that goes wrong this year.
Homie makes himself an easy target sometimes.
What I dont like is that he doesn't get the credit he deserves when he plays well, it's usually "yea Jop will be Jop and he will go off some games, but cost us a bunch."
Part of it is that he seems to go off against weaker competition.
Let's see him have a great game on Saturday and hopefully that perception changes a bit.
Quote from: tower912 on December 04, 2024, 09:23:03 PMSo Tre is the new scapegoat? Sad. There are no scapegoats tonight. Shorthanded on the road against a top 10 team.
I'm going to use the deflated ball in the final two minutes as a scapegoat.
Get it together Yormark!
Quote from: DoctorV on December 05, 2024, 09:01:43 AMHomie makes himself an easy target sometimes.
What I dont like is that he doesn't get the credit he deserves when he plays well, it's usually "yea Jop will be Jop and he will go off some games, but cost us a bunch."
Part of it is that he seems to go off against weaker competition.
Let's see him have a great game on Saturday and hopefully that perception changes a bit.
Jop criticism is fair
Jop does a lot of good things but there is definitely a good Jop and a bad Jop. Bad Jop showed up yesterday. Needed scoring from him yesterday, especially with Chase getting hurt. Jop wasn't hitting his shot, and his drives were out of control.
Freshmen stepped offensively but they had a few too many freshmen moments with a few turnovers and inconsistent defensive effort.
Whole team was a little off yesterday. Felt like they were just a little rushed on the offensive end. Give ISU credit, great defensive team and great home court advantage. We needed our "A" game and didn't bring it.
Still had a chance to steal that game in the end for a brief moment but couldn't get the stops needed, a bad foul call and some ill-advised shots quickly ended any thought of stealing that game.
Hoping Chase doesn't have a high ankle sprain. Hoping Ben is ok. Hoping Zaide has a quick recovery.
Quote from: Goose on December 05, 2024, 07:46:54 AMNot disappointed with the game last night. Once again, we saw a Shaka led team fight for an entire game. Thought there was a slight chance of winning going into the game and was hoping for a solid performance. With how ISU shot and the poor shooting by Kam and Jop, that easily could have been a 25-point blowout loss.
I am very excited about the young guys and think they will play big roles as the season moves on. IMO, Owens is one of the best looking freshmen that I can remember in a long time. The best part, it looks like his ceiling extremely high.
Agreed on the freshmen. We all knew they could both play, but doing it on the road against an elite team so early in their careers was unexpected.
That said, I also agree on the 25+ point loss part, and that's what worries me about what I saw last night.
If it weren't for 2 freshmen having improbable games and combining for 28 points Marquette gets blown out, and I wouldn't have expected a blowout with how good this years team is defensively.
The injuries don't help, that's two of our best and most versatile defenders that are out...
Also, as a fair warning, there will be some regression and plenty of poor games from the freshmen this season, it happens to all freshmen.
That doesn't mean that their ceiling isn't incredibly high- I've already said that barring something unforeseen they are both projected starters in year 2, with Owens having bonafide star and best player on the team potential- it just means that we will need to count on the core upperclassmen more often than not this year.
Developing these youngsters early is a huge bonus though, they will play key supplementary roles throughout the season
Quote from: Goose on December 05, 2024, 07:46:54 AMNot disappointed with the game last night. Once again, we saw a Shaka led team fight for an entire game. Thought there was a slight chance of winning going into the game and was hoping for a solid performance. With how ISU shot and the poor shooting by Kam and Jop, that easily could have been a 25-point blowout loss.
I am very excited about the young guys and think they will play big roles as the season moves on. IMO, Owens is one of the best looking freshmen that I can remember in a long time. The best part, it looks like his ceiling extremely high.
Yep. Parham and Owens accounted for 28 points. Even with their freshman defensive lapses, they are a major part of the reason it was not a "25 point blowout".
The good news from the beating we took is that we got a taste of what those 2 guys are capable of. Our future is secure, And this past game? Thank God it is just that,,,,
past.Erdit: crossed with Doctor V's post, so said some of the same things.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 05, 2024, 08:13:42 AMI blame this one on my internet. We made our 10-0 comeback to tie the game, then my app froze. Took a minute or two and switching from Disney+ to Hulu to get it playing again and by that time, we were down 7. Damn you, AT&T!
Seriously though, no issues with last night. They got out to a hot start, fed off their crowd, and had an answer every time we tightened the score. I was glad to see us keep it close enough that we could've won it on the road without Ross, but after tying it at 61, we just didn't have quite enough in those last 10 minutes.
No matter who lined up on the other side of the court last night, Iowa State was the only team winning that one. When they are hitting 40% from deep, with that crowd behind them, just not gonna happen. You can also see why Big 12 fans call it Hilton Bulls**t. We were never going to go undefeated, let's just get the next couple, rock the Big East, and go into the NCAA Tournament as a 1-seed.
My feed (Spectrum) was brutal all night. I think it was an ESPN+ issue more than anything.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 05, 2024, 08:52:30 AMI don't know if it's unfair to be frustrated by the fact his decision making offensively hasn't improved a ton over the course of his career.
Especially when you compare it to the way Kam has evolved. He was an empty calorie scorer as a freshman and has really become a complete ballplayer.
But in terms of defense, Joplin has evolved by leaps and bounds. I hated the turnovers as much as anyone last night, and cursed under my breath when he drove into the lane against that active hands defense, but we need to have him out there defensively, which is something I never thought I would say about Joplin.
As much has Kam has improved offensively, I think Jop has improved that much if not more defensively. His hands are now active so he's constantly in position for deflections, his defensive positioning, his ability to hold his man and stay in front, his ability to switch, all of that is better. His defensive rebounding, once a weakness, is now the best on the team and a legitimate strength.
I'd love a higher offensive floor, but his defensive floor is why he is seeing 30+ minutes in every meaningful contest so far this season.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 05, 2024, 09:16:16 AMMy feed (Spectrum) was brutal all night. I think it was an ESPN+ issue more than anything.
Mine went out when we were within 7 late in the 2nd half. I thought I might have to "watch" the rest of the game on gamecast, where I learned we were tied at 61. I finally got the video back up, but then....sh!t!
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 05, 2024, 09:16:16 AMMy feed (Spectrum) was brutal all night. I think it was an ESPN+ issue more than anything.
Not a single blip watching ESPN+ on Xfinity...
Bu the way, who noticed MU running the double high screen with their bigs last night?
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 05, 2024, 08:13:42 AMI blame this one on my internet. We made our 10-0 comeback to tie the game, then my app froze. Took a minute or two and switching from Disney+ to Hulu to get it playing again and by that time, we were down 7. Damn you, AT&T!
Seriously though, no issues with last night. They got out to a hot start, fed off their crowd, and had an answer every time we tightened the score. I was glad to see us keep it close enough that we could've won it on the road without Ross, but after tying it at 61, we just didn't have quite enough in those last 10 minutes.
No matter who lined up on the other side of the court last night, Iowa State was the only team winning that one. When they are hitting 40% from deep, with that crowd behind them, just not gonna happen. You can also see why Big 12 fans call it Hilton Bulls**t. We were never going to go undefeated, let's just get the next couple, rock the Big East, and go into the NCAA Tournament as a 1-seed.
I don't see a win in either of the next 2 if Chase is out.
The Freshman are awesome, but the performances last night go out the window and UW and Dayton are very upper classmen oriented. A lot of experience while we rely on youth to fill the holes. Could be some good games if we can have 8 healthy guys, but idk about wins.
Quote from: DoctorV on December 05, 2024, 09:09:54 AMAgreed on the freshmen. We all knew they could both play, but doing it on the road against an elite team so early in their careers was unexpected.
That said, I also agree on the 25+ point loss part, and that's what worries me about what I saw last night.
If it weren't for 2 freshmen having improbable games and combining for 28 points Marquette gets blown out, and I wouldn't have expected a blowout with how good this years team is defensively.
The injuries don't help, that's two of our best and most versatile defenders that are out...
Also, as a fair warning, there will be some regression and plenty of poor games from the freshmen this season, it happens to all freshmen.
That doesn't mean that their ceiling isn't incredibly high- I've already said that barring something unforeseen they are both projected starters in year 2, with Owens having bonafide star and best player on the team potential- it just means that we will need to count on the core upperclassmen more often than not this year.
Developing these youngsters early is a huge bonus though, they will play key supplementary roles throughout the season
The drop-off defensively with Chase (and Zaide) out and being replaced by freshman is massive and impacts our style of play as well. Because of that, I wouldn't view the game in a vacuum and be overly concerned that we may have lost by 25 plus without outlier performances by the frosh. If Chase and Zaide are out long-term, then yes, we are not going to be the same team and there are very real concerns. Hopefully, that won't be the case and with those guys I think we would have been in that game to the wire last night. We just need to get healthy. Fast.
IMO,Jop's lack of improving his decision making on offense is the biggest disappointment from a player in the Shaka era. Now, his defensive and rebounding improvement are fantastic, just baffled that he is not learned from his mistakes with the basketball. Unfortunately for Jop, and MU fans, that is going to be discussed 2x more than his improvements on D and rebounding.
All that said, he is a big part of a team that has been ranked for 2+ seasons and often in the top ten. If David Joplin offensive blunders are my biggest grip in 3+ years of Shaka, I have been spoiled by some very good basketball.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 05, 2024, 09:18:26 AMAs much has Kam has improved offensively, I think Jop has improved that much if not more defensively. His hands are now active so he's constantly in position for deflections, his defensive positioning, his ability to hold his man and stay in front, his ability to switch, all of that is better. His defensive rebounding, once a weakness, is now the best on the team and a legitimate strength.
I'd love a higher offensive floor, but his defensive floor is why he is seeing 30+ minutes in every meaningful contest so far this season.
Go to evanmiya. Look at Marquettes roster. Short by changes over the season. Not only has Kam improved more offensivly than joplin has defensivily. Kam has improved defensivly more than Joplin has defensivly.
Kam is a top 4 player in college basketball.
Jops on Chase and Bens tier, not Kam.
Jops defensive floor is worse than all three of our guards, and slightly better than Ben's and Royce's (who was a freshman know for offense).
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on December 05, 2024, 09:34:08 AMI don't see a win in either of the next 2 if Chase is out.
The Freshman are awesome, but the performances last night go out the window and UW and Dayton are very upper classmen oriented. A lot of experience while we rely on youth to fill the holes. Could be some good games if we can have 8 healthy guys, but idk about wins.
I fully expect them to beat Wisconsin at home even if Chase is out.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on December 04, 2024, 09:42:35 PMMore like a separate subject than a scape goat for this game. He has not played well offensively this year or last and does not show much promise to this point. Hope his shoulder heals and that is the reason for his ineffectiveness. Time will tell.
He needs to knock down some shots. His handle is pretty good but teams aren't attacking closeouts. He has the occasional strong take a finish. We've ween some reverses and bully ball at the rim from him in small doses.
Until he shows he can knock down jumpers he's going to continue to be ineffective.
Quote from: BM1090 on December 05, 2024, 09:47:32 AMHe needs to knock down some shots. His handle is pretty good but teams aren't attacking closeouts. He has the occasional strong take a finish. We've ween some reverses and bully ball at the rim from him in small doses.
Until he shows he can knock down jumpers he's going to continue to be ineffective.
Tre is a great team guy, great spirit, and I feel has a lot of respect among his teammates and coaches. Thus far, he hasn't shown a whole lot as far as being anything more than a 5-10 minute reserve. If he's okay with that role and remains having a positive attitude/infectious energy, he's the ideal guy to have on the roster as a 9-10th man.
Just don't see a whole lot of upside potential to his game given his physical tools beyond what we've seen so far - occasional bully ball bucket, some decent defense, and a perhaps a slighly + rebounder from the guard position.
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on December 05, 2024, 09:34:08 AMI don't see a win in either of the next 2 if Chase is out.
The Freshman are awesome, but the performances last night go out the window and UW and Dayton are very upper classmen oriented. A lot of experience while we rely on youth to fill the holes. Could be some good games if we can have 8 healthy guys, but idk about wins.
We could have prime NBA Dwyane Wade, prime NBA Jimmy Butler, prime Jae Crowder, prime Markus Howard, prime Lazar Hayward, prime Travis Diener, prime Steve Novak, prime Robert Jackson, prime Kolek, prime Oso, prime Kam, prime Wes Matthews, and prime Jerel McNeal all on the roster this year and you wouldn't see a win over the Badgers.
The freshman can't perform like they did last night because we'll be playing veteran teams? As if Iowa State isn't a veteran team, on its home floor?
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on December 05, 2024, 09:34:08 AMI don't see a win in either of the next 2 if Chase is out.
This feels like an over-statement.
Chase will pull a Kolek at Illinois, play with a sprained ankle and have his best game against the Badgers. Legacy game.
Winning the next two with or without Chase is a decent task. That said, I 100% believe they can win both without Chase.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on December 05, 2024, 09:38:54 AMI fully expect them to beat Wisconsin at home even if Chase is out.
Pretty confident they beat both now that GoldenBummer weighed in
Pretty sure the team is going to be pumped simply so Viper won't be mercilessly ridiculed by his brother in law at Christmas.
Quote from: jfp61 on December 05, 2024, 09:36:50 AMGo to evanmiya. Look at Marquettes roster. Short by changes over the season. Not only has Kam improved more offensivly than joplin has defensivily. Kam has improved defensivly more than Joplin has defensivly.
Kam is a top 4 player in college basketball.
Jops on Chase and Bens tier, not Kam.
Jops defensive floor is worse than all three of our guards, and slightly better than Ben's and Royce's (who was a freshman know for offense).
Advanced statistics do a poor job capturing defense, but especially in this case. As a freshman, Kam was active defensively. He wasn't great, but his hands were up, the effort was there, he worked to go over screens. At this time last year, Jop didn't even have his hands up routinely. He took a major turn midseason last year where you could see the effort increase, his hands up getting deflections. Pretty sure the staff saw it too because he went from cracking 30+ minutes just twice in the first seventeen games to twelve times in the last twenty.
Kam always had the effort, but improved his technique. Joplin improved in both regards. He's not remotely the same defensive player he was 1-2 years ago. And in terms of replacement value, there is no one on the bench who can remotely come close to matching the level of defense Jop provides at his position. Kam is irreplaceable offensively, but we have defenders (Zaide) that can more than make up for his defensive impact.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 05, 2024, 10:55:04 AMAdvanced statistics do a poor job capturing defense, but especially in this case. As a freshman, Kam was active defensively. He wasn't great, but his hands were up, the effort was there, he worked to go over screens. At this time last year, Jop didn't even have his hands up routinely. He took a major turn midseason last year where you could see the effort increase, his hands up getting deflections. Pretty sure the staff saw it too because he went from cracking 30+ minutes just twice in the first seventeen games to twelve times in the last twenty.
Kam always had the effort, but improved his technique. Joplin improved in both regards. He's not remotely the same defensive player he was 1-2 years ago. And in terms of replacement value, there is no one on the bench who can remotely come close to matching the level of defense Jop provides at his position. Kam is irreplaceable offensively, but we have defenders (Zaide) that can more than make up for his defensive impact.
I agree with most of this, but I'd argue Zaide could guard Jop's position in most matchups.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on December 05, 2024, 10:21:10 AMChase will pull a Kolek at Illinois, play with a sprained ankle and have his best game against the Badgers. Legacy game.
I'm hopeful he will be able to play. Being left handed he jumps off his right foot most of the time and he sprained his left.
As long as they can get swelling down I think he would probably give it a go too.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 05, 2024, 10:55:04 AMAdvanced statistics do a poor job capturing defense.
in terms of replacement value, there is no one on the bench who can remotely come close to matching the level of defense Jop provides at his position.
First we were talking about improvement, they have improved similarly on defense, and Kam improving offensivly is turbo charging this team well the other guy is doing worse than he was supposed to.
Statistics do a poor job capturing defense because defensive box score provides very little beneficial informaiton about the players ability to defend. Steals are the only defensive stat that have a "large" box score impact. Blocks are no different from any other non steal generating deflection. And defensive rebounding is very much a team stat. (a good example of this is brook lopez in the NBA, who puts a body on a body as much as anyone and lets others grab the board.)
Additoinally a major part of defense is avoiding home run turnovers, something joplin and zaide struggle with, and somethign Kam avoids. It is the reason their defense, from an advanced perspective, doesn't look as good as it should for either of them. Because you can't seggregate that to a run out to being an offensive issue.
The best player on our bench is clearly Royce Parham through 9 games. If we are talking replacments. The only viable replacement would be inserting Royce into the lineup. That fits Joplin more than it even fits Gold. I am not calling for this to happen, yet. But it makes more sense than throwing zaide out there in any capacity.
Quote from: tower912 on December 05, 2024, 06:55:24 AMI thought about it. Seemed too cliche' to me.
*Sigh* Clones
Quote from: PointWarrior on December 05, 2024, 09:28:30 AMNot a single blip watching ESPN+ on Xfinity...
Not a blip at all for me on Spectrum either, strange that my boss has Spectrum but mine includes Disney+ and ESPN+ where his doesn't.
Jop just thinks he's LeBron sometimes which causes the mass frustration. Just shoot threes and have the occasional post up.
In Jops defense, that's pretty much all he did his Freshman season when he was labeled a chucker. He is who he is, I don't foresee him changing much at this point.
Quote from: jfp61 on December 05, 2024, 11:43:44 AMFirst we were talking about improvement, they have improved similarly on defense, and Kam improving offensivly is turbo charging this team well the other guy is doing worse than he was supposed to.
Sorry, but that is laughably inaccurate, going all the way back to his first public practice at Marquette:
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 14, 2021, 10:31:18 PMKam Jones was the biggest surprise for me as well. Confident with the ball, a creative scorer, and a pest on defense.
Joplin isn't afraid to shoot but his defense looked to be the farthest behind of anyone.
I was at that practice. I watched Kam go at Morsell back and forth. You could see him learning how to fight through screens, how to get in the way, as TAMU said, to be a pest. Joplin had none of that. He just shot with little regard for the other end. You yourself noted that he was our worst defender:
Quote from: jfp61 on June 25, 2022, 03:59:39 PMThe bigger problem at the end of last year was the guard defense. Mitchell was the only Rapm negative guard in the past few games of the season. Kolek defense took a major downturn late. Morsells defense was questionable all year for his pedigree. And kam was lost. Now Joplin or a freshman in gold will have to play more defense. Joplin was probably our worst defender last year.
His defense has been a constant talking point in a way Kam's never was:
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on February 12, 2022, 10:13:40 PMBecause Joplin is a negative defensively
Quote from: jfp61 on June 02, 2023, 12:49:04 AMi agree with all of this, i am probably as low on Joplin as anyone one... at the same time he is such a good outside shooter it largely doesn't matter.
He'll just be Davante Gardner on the wing...
...I will be annoying sing the defense slip, but it might be the best path staying good.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on December 20, 2022, 06:33:50 PMJoplin is such an offensive spark plug but his defense makes him borderline unplayable
Quote from: jfp61 on March 09, 2023, 03:40:48 PMBench play will be our death
Sean Jones-8, Chase Ross (who shot well) -10, David Joplin -16.
Stevie +20 Oso+15
Kam has improved. The idea that he's improved as much on the defensive end as Joplin flies in the face of what everyone, including yourself on multiple occasions, has observed. Kam will be a first-round pick because his offense has improved tremendously and his defensive prowess now matches the defensive effort he put in as a freshman.
But as far as Jop, I'm overjoyed with where he is now because he has a defensive floor that keeps him on the court whether or not his shot is falling. I get frustrated with the offensive inconsistencies and the turnovers, but considering where he started on defense, his development is tremendous.
#defensivly
Jolp - love the dr%, stl%, blk%, not fouling much
#defensivly
Quote from: wadesworld on December 05, 2024, 10:04:35 AMWe could have prime NBA Dwyane Wade, prime NBA Jimmy Butler, prime Jae Crowder, prime Markus Howard, prime Lazar Hayward, prime Travis Diener, prime Steve Novak, prime Robert Jackson, prime Kolek, prime Oso, prime Kam, prime Wes Matthews, and prime Jerel McNeal all on the roster this year and you wouldn't see a win over the Badgers.
The freshman can't perform like they did last night because we'll be playing veteran teams? As if Iowa State isn't a veteran team, on its home floor?
Gard owns Shaka
Quote from: wadesworld on December 05, 2024, 10:04:35 AMWe could have prime NBA Dwyane Wade, prime NBA Jimmy Butler, prime Jae Crowder, prime Markus Howard, prime Lazar Hayward, prime Travis Diener, prime Steve Novak, prime Robert Jackson, prime Kolek, prime Oso, prime Kam, prime Wes Matthews, and prime Jerel McNeal all on the roster this year and you wouldn't see a win over the Badgers.
In GE03's defense, he wouldn't pick that team to beat Georgia Tech, either.
Quote from: MU82 on December 05, 2024, 08:12:38 PMIn GE03's defense, he wouldn't pick that team to beat Georgia Tech, either.
Quote from: MU82 on December 05, 2024, 08:12:38 PMIn GE03's defense, he wouldn't pick that team to beat Georgia Tech, either.
Quote from: MU82 on December 05, 2024, 08:12:38 PMIn GE03's defense, he wouldn't pick that team to beat Georgia Tech, either.
Quote from: MU82 on December 05, 2024, 08:12:38 PMIn GE03's defense, he wouldn't pick that team to beat Georgia Tech, either.
You guys are goofy.
Marquette hasn't beat UW in front of a crowd in like 7 years. UW is good and I would like to beat them, but I just don't like the matchup.
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on December 05, 2024, 08:25:36 PMYou guys are goofy.
Marquette hasn't beat UW in front of a crowd in like 7 years. UW is good and I would like to beat them, but I just don't like the matchup.
Oh no!
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on December 05, 2024, 08:25:36 PMYou guys are goofy.
Marquette hasn't beat UW in front of a crowd in like 7 years. UW is good and I would like to beat them, but I just don't like the matchup.
Yes, everyone is goofy except for the guy who loves to say Madison "always finds a way to get it done" while conveniently ignoring all the times they don't find a way to get it done.
Quote from: MU82 on December 05, 2024, 08:30:42 PMYes, everyone is goofy except for the guy who loves to say Madison "always finds a way to get it done" while conveniently ignoring all the times they don't find a way to get it done.
They do. They always have a subpar roster and find a way to win Big games and dance.
That is getting it done with the limited talent they have.
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on December 05, 2024, 08:45:08 PMThey do. They always have a subpar roster and find a way to win Big games and dance.
That is getting it done with the limited talent they have.
Yep, they even got it done Tuesday. Because they always do.
Always. Even in 2022-23. Finished 11th, but they got it done in some big NIT games.
Anyhoo, they appreciate your devotion to their always-getting-it-doneness.
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on December 05, 2024, 08:25:36 PMYou guys are goofy.
Marquette hasn't beat UW in front of a crowd in like 7 years. UW is good and I would like to beat them, but I just don't like the matchup.
Gard owns Shaka
Quote from: MU82 on December 05, 2024, 08:30:42 PMYes, everyone is goofy except for the guy who loves to say Madison "always finds a way to get it done" while conveniently ignoring all the times they don't find a way to get it done.
Well, they have certainly been getting it done against us the last 3 years. Hope that changes on Saturday.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on December 06, 2024, 12:51:49 PMWell, they have certainly been getting it done against us the last 3 years.
So?