How much of a concern?
lol
None. Give it time.
Quote from: tower912 on November 23, 2024, 12:12:48 PMNone. Give it time.
Right, these are the newest players with the least playing time.
More experience and time on the court they will contribute more.
Quote from: 1SE on November 23, 2024, 12:11:23 PMHow much of a concern?
You're a glass half-full kind of guy, huh.
I'm actually pleasantly surprised by our bench so far.
Not a lot of confidence in Lowery or Norman, but Parham and Owens will be stars.
Offensively we don't have anything we can count on right now from the bench. Hopefully some upcoming games will provide more opportunity and they will become more consistent. Parham and Owens look very capable. Sean would also provide some offensive punch if he can come back.
I'm worried sick.
If our bench had been more productive, we'd be 10-0 by now.
Quote from: forgetful on November 23, 2024, 12:15:24 PMI'm actually pleasantly surprised by our bench so far.
Same. Lots of flashes from Royce. You can see Owens potential and I expect him to be a lot more comfortable after the next two games. Lowery is great on defense.
Tre is odd. He's largely invisible and then once or twice per game he does something that makes me think he's going to be pretty good. I think his success will start to come once he gets the ball in his hands more.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 23, 2024, 12:15:01 PMYou're a glass half-full kind of guy, huh.
Listen, I mean I'm glad we could beat a 50+ team on a neutral court and all, but we looked terrible when Stevie and Kam were off the floor (will be interesting to see the +/-). I want to cut down nets - 6 pts of production off the bench ain't gonna cut it. I get the freshmen should get better - but Tre and Zaide not looking like the same guys who contributed some solid conference minutes last year.
Obvious by today's game. When Kam, Stevie and Chase were out of the game our defense let Georgia back into the game. I am sure that will change as the season goes on.
The bench is terrible. It's responsible for every game MU lost so far.
Quote from: 1SE on November 23, 2024, 12:22:29 PMListen, I mean I'm glad we could beat a 50+ team on a neutral court and all, but we looked terrible when Stevie and Kam were off the floor (will be interesting to see the +/-). I want to cut down nets - 6 pts of production off the bench ain't gonna cut it. I get the freshmen should get better - but Tre and Zaide not looking like the same guys who contributed some solid conference minutes last year.
Sophomore jinx?
Quote from: 1SE on November 23, 2024, 12:22:29 PMListen, I mean I'm glad we could beat a 50+ team on a neutral court and all, but we looked terrible when Stevie and Kam were off the floor (will be interesting to see the +/-). I want to cut down nets - 6 pts of production off the bench ain't gonna cut it. I get the freshmen should get better - but Tre and Zaide not looking like the same guys who contributed some solid conference minutes last year.
Sophomore jinx?
Quote from: 1SE on November 23, 2024, 12:22:29 PMListen, I mean I'm glad we could beat a 50+ team on a neutral court and all, but we looked terrible when Stevie and Kam were off the floor (will be interesting to see the +/-). I want to cut down nets - 6 pts of production off the bench ain't gonna cut it. I get the freshmen should get better - but Tre and Zaide not looking like the same guys who contributed some solid conference minutes last year.
Good teams win, great teams cover
1) Owens was playing very well in practice before the toe injury. Get Owens caught up to speed. Then we'll have a 6th man.
2) Parham is showing flashes and should keep getting better as the season progresses.
3) When Sean Jones returns and gets up to speed, that will give us a much needed veteran presence off the bench.
I'm optimistic that our bench will be a lot better by February.
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on November 23, 2024, 12:33:45 PMGood teams win, great teams cover
Kam and Stevie will both be all conference - Kam will probably be all-American. Chase is really coming into his own. And when good Ben and Jop show up that is a starting five that can beat any team in the country.
But right now there is a precipitous drop off. We're on a razor-thin foul/injury margin - that's what I'm talking about in terms of concern. When Kam went down and stayed down all I could think of was "well, that was a nice season while it lasted"
Quote from: 1SE on November 23, 2024, 12:37:28 PMKam and Stevie will both be all conference - Kam will probably be all-American. Chase is really coming into his own. And when good Ben and Jop show up that is a starting five that can beat any team in the country.
But right now there is a precipitous drop off. We're on a razor-thin foul/injury margin - that's what I'm talking about in terms of concern. When Kam went down and stayed down all I could think of was "well, that was a nice season while it lasted"
I would recommend not enjoying the season then and just worry.
Quote from: 1SE on November 23, 2024, 12:22:29 PMListen, I mean I'm glad we could beat a 50+ team on a neutral court and all, but we looked terrible when Stevie and Kam were off the floor (will be interesting to see the +/-). I want to cut down nets - 6 pts of production off the bench ain't gonna cut it. I get the freshmen should get better - but Tre and Zaide not looking like the same guys who contributed some solid conference minutes last year.
After the Maryland win, many of us were praising the play of Parham and Hamilton, looking forward to getting Owens up to speed and were expressing realistic hope that Sean Jones could still contribute this season. We haven't needed much from the bench the last two games.
We're 6 games in. We're 6-0, and pretty damn impressively so. College basketball games are filled with LONG time-outs. I've yet to see signs late in games that Kam, Chase and Stevie are tired. The couple games Gold was in foul trouble, Hamilton and Parham did A-OK.
Enjoy our undefeated team that could move into the top 10, and stop looking for things to worry about. Or don't enjoy them and do look for things to worry about ... it's still a free country for now!
Quote from: 1SE on November 23, 2024, 12:37:28 PMWhen Kam went down and stayed down all I could think of was "well, that was a nice season while it lasted"
If Kam were to suffer a serious injury, Marquette would be effed. It wouldn't matter if Lowery and/or Norman were playing better - we have nobody who can replace Kam.
We had a deeper team last season, but we'd have gone nowhere without Kolek or Oso. That's what happens when a college team loses an All-American, NBA-caliber player. Even the bluebloods have trouble overcoming the loss of a superstar - and Kam is a superstar.
Quote from: MU82 on November 23, 2024, 12:41:42 PMAfter the Maryland win, many of us were praising the play of Parham and Hamilton, looking forward to getting Owens up to speed and were expressing realistic hope that Sean Jones could still contribute this season. We haven't needed much from the bench the last two games.
We're 6 games in. We're 6-0, and pretty damn impressively so. College basketball games are filled with LONG time-outs. I've yet to see signs late in games that Kam, Chase and Stevie are tired. The couple games Gold was in foul trouble, Hamilton and Parham did A-OK.
Enjoy our undefeated team that could move into the top 10, and stop looking for things to worry about. Or don't enjoy them and do look for things to worry about ... it's still a free country for now!
I enjoy all the wins - and of course if Kam (or even Stevie) goes down that's the end of title hopes regardless of who is coming off the bench - just something to talk about on a message board.
There is a concern. It's obvious Shaka does not trust the freshmen defensively. Both can score. Zaide can defend but looks like he regressed offensively. I have no confidence in Tre.
It will get better as the freshmen start figuring out the defensive requirements from Shaka to get more playing time.
Bigger concern is Kam's propensity to foul. We need him on the floor at all times.
People need to get accustomed to college basketball rosters. This isn't the NBA, teams don't have 10 elite players. That's why rotations shrink to 6-7 guys in the most important games of the season.
MUBB's depth is a strength, especially defensively.
Quote from: Tyler COLEk on November 23, 2024, 12:50:00 PMPeople need to get accustomed to college basketball rosters. This isn't the NBA, teams don't have 10 elite players. That's why rotations shrink to 6-7 guys in the most important games of the season.
MUBB's depth is a strength, especially defensively.
Yep.
I'm seriously not concerned about our bench. Maybe if Gold and Kam show long patterns of getting into foul trouble ... and if Owens isn't as special as most of us think he will be (at least not this season) ... and if Sean doesn't come back (or is a shell of his old self) ... then I'll get concerned.
But we're 6-0, our guys have played very well for long stretches in three straight quality wins, and I haven't once felt that we weren't the stronger, more fit team at the end of every game so far.
We Are Marquette!
We will see plenty of the bench the next couple games with the cakiest of cupcakes upcoming. If Kam is hurting, he may just sit Stonehill out.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on November 23, 2024, 12:55:34 PMWe will see plenty of the bench the next couple games with the cakiest of cupcakes upcoming. If Kam is hurting, he may just sit Stonehill out.
Actually looking forward to a more relaxed week for MU hoops hopefully. This was a tough stretch of games. Will be easier to enjoy some of the other great games this week. Will be nice to see extended run from MU's second unit as well.
Quote from: MU82 on November 23, 2024, 12:41:42 PMOr don't enjoy them and do look for things to worry about ... it's still a free country for now!
Get out while you still can!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 23, 2024, 01:47:52 PMGet out while you still can!
Haven't you narked on some people for some comments similar to this? Weird.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 23, 2024, 03:41:56 PMHaven't you narked on some people for some comments similar to this? Weird.
I don't "nark" on anyone, never hit report to moderator. I have responded to obviously political posts with the comment "political" but no more.
I've been instructed by those of your ilk not to complain, so I've stopped. Instead, I'll reply.
We need to use the next two games to get our young players playing time and confidence again.
Zaide Lowery has lost some confidence after having some real bad misses in games that have mattered.
Tre Norman has been mistake prone until he finally made the reverse layup today late in the game.
Caeden needs some run too and to look for his shot when he has a one on one matchup. Today he look terrified when he had the ball downlow with his back to the basket.
Owens and Parham have both been good thus far but both could use more minutes in real game situations.
Two cupcakes come at a perfect time... we'll need our bench showing what they can do and building confidence before we face our next gauntlet of ISU and the BADgers.
They should all be starting.
I have zero concerns with Parham and Owens.
Parham is already a solid back up option(would like more of his open 3s to fall tho) and Owens is gonna be so good in time. Injury was a shame.
Very disappointed with Zaides offensive growth or even regression(so far) but his length and D make him still a serviceable bench option
Norman is extremely disappointing. He's good on D but unlike Zaide doesn't have the natural size/length to make up for the horrific offense as much. Not giving up on him, but optimism is at a low.
Hamilton, against teams with a pulse he's an "in case of emergency" big.
SJ coming back is the game changer for the bench. He's got a set role to really help as a 1st guard off the bench. And then Parham/Lowery/Owens is a very adequate 7-9. With loads of potential
Some people must just like to complain to hear themselves complain. This is what the non-con is for. The bench guys will get some run now with the cupcakes and some more min against harder competitors. It'll all help them get more fluid and slow the game down.
R.E.L.A.X. and learn some patience.
Quote from: tower912 on November 23, 2024, 04:58:17 PMThey should all be starting.
You're embarrassing yourself again Tower. I had Kam and and Stevie starting and Caeden is a sophomore physically, program practice experience wise and age wise, even though it's his first year of eligibility. I never said all freshman but you don't care if the truth gets in the way of a good story.
Parham has played like a starter already and Owens is just cutting his teeth right now. Let's see how Owens develops the rest of the season. He has talent oozing out of his ears and its a matter of time before he explodes on the scene for us.
We're going to need Caeden to step up as we had no paint play today and had to rely only on 3's as we got no penetration all game with no post play to offset the lack of penetration. This might get us by a good, but not great, Georgia team early in the season but it won't get us a long dance in March. Read the board's comments about Gold's the first four games... he was awful and Parham outplayed him. Gold played well the last two games. We heard how great Caeden was in practice so far but he hasn't shown it yet in a game... hopefully at some point he will as we'll need his big body, rebounding and post presence if we're going to make a long run in March. Those who live by the 3, die by the 3.
The only bench guy who has shown anything is Parham. He's good and will contribute a lot.
Lowery showed little last year and nothing this year so far. Norman can't play. He brings nothing. He's a lesser version of Derrick Wilson. Owens maybe, but there's not enough for anyone to know yet. Claiming otherwise is just being a wishful thinking fan. Hamilton needs a lot of seasoning and is a year away I think.
So yeah, it's pretty grim. Lowery and Owens are our best hopes for more depth than a 6 man rotation.
Some needs to show Fury road to Duane. Took Towers comment and produced a nice novel
(https://i.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExNzJxN3Q2MzU4ODJuM3lwOHR6bHkwbGcwcTFpa2dzMG5nc3Zyc3NpciZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/srTYyZ1BjBtGU/giphy.gif)
Quote from: duanewade on November 23, 2024, 05:19:42 PMYou're embarrassing yourself again Tower. I had Kam and and Stevie starting and Caeden is a sophomore physically, program practice experience wise and age wise, even though it's his first year of eligibility. I never said all freshman but you don't care if the truth gets in the way of a good story.
Parham has played like a starter already and Owens is just cutting his teeth right now. Let's see how Owens develops the rest of the season. He has talent oozing out of his ears and its a matter of time before he explodes on the scene for us.
We're going to need Caeden to step up as we had no paint play today and had to rely only on 3's as we got no penetration all game with no post play to offset the lack of penetration. This might get us by a good, but not great, Georgia team early in the season but it won't get us a long dance in March. Read the board's comments about Gold's the first four games... he was awful and Parham outplayed him. Gold played well the last two games. We heard how great Caeden was in practice so far but he hasn't shown it yet in a game... hopefully at some point he will as we'll need his big body, rebounding and post presence if we're going to make a long run in March. Those who live by the 3, die by the 3.
After reading this, I'm sure Shaka's staff will change how they play offense
I never embarrass myself. And yes, it will be nice if the bench gets run and improves. I have never said anything different. I am actively rooting for it.
Shaka isn't going to change his starting lineup, barring injuries. And he starts experience. Other than his first season, there has not been a line up change not due to injury, and it has always been the most experienced players.
Next season should be fun. Sean, Chase, Parham, Owens, Gold. Barring unexpected departures. That will be a fun lineup, too.
Norman is one of our worst recruiting misses in a long time.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on November 23, 2024, 05:51:42 PMNorman is one of our worst recruiting misses in a long time.
He's been playing hurt this year
Quote from: tower912 on November 23, 2024, 05:32:02 PMI never embarrass myself.
Really? First man in recorded history..congrats!
Thanks.
What was Shaka going after Lowry for at the end of the first half?
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on November 23, 2024, 12:55:34 PMWe will see plenty of the bench the next couple games with the cakiest of cupcakes upcoming. If Kam is hurting, he may just sit Stonehill out.
https://x.com/MarquetteMBB/status/1860429273040912474
#Bootwatch is optimistic
Owens needs some time to be worked into the rotation, no worries there.
Parham has already been better than I expected.
Zaide is a Big East ready defender. A bit concerned the offense hasn't improved.
Norman is playing hurt and missed over a month of the offseason. We will see what happens there. Worried he may be Rossed (hampered all season but hopefully with a big leap next season)
Caedin is what I expected though I was lower than most onn here. I think he's got potential but still needs time.
Sean, I'm not sure if he comes back or not this season. I think with a player that relies that much on explosivess and agility, you don't bring him back unless that knee is 110% recovered
I think Lowery is fine. He's developing into a very good defender who can cover multiple positions. He has good size and he's physical. On offense he really just defers to the upperclassmen. At this stage, I think Shaka is fine with that approach as long as he plays D.
Quote from: Zog from Margo on November 23, 2024, 07:39:58 PMI think Lowery is fine. He's developing into a very good defender who can cover multiple positions. He has good size and he's physical. On offense he really just defers to the upperclassmen. At this stage, I think Shaka is fine with that approach as long as he plays D.
This is a good take. He needs to trust himself on the offensive end.
I gotta say.
I do about 50 double takes when Rico drops serious replies
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on November 23, 2024, 07:54:56 PMI gotta say.
I do about 50 double takes when Rico drops serious replies
Listen, the amount of bad real takes on this board makes that really hard.
Tre and Zaide are going to take a lot of heat this year and next. New Jop and Ben.
The kids have the athleticism and talent to be real good players. The growth might be rough at times and that'll be frustrating but, man, what does this staff have to do to earn trust?
They'll have misses and maybe these two end up as misses but discarding them a year and 8 games into their second season is simply stupid
Preach.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 23, 2024, 07:58:59 PMListen, the amount of bad real takes on this board makes that really hard.
Tre and Zaide are going to take a lot of heat this year and next. New Jop and Ben.
The kids have the athleticism and talent to be real good players. The growth might be rough at times and that'll be frustrating but, man, what does this staff have to do to earn trust?
They'll have misses and maybe these two end up as misses but discarding them a year and 8 games into their second season is simply stupid
Hey,
for 1 I wasn't complaining. Love to see it mixed in with the bits.
Completely agree on trusting Shaka. ANd I still remain a Zaide confidant even with the non existent O this year. Probably not as much as Ners but, still.
Norman has me fully on edge tho. Hoping as you said the Shaka trust factors puts that to bed.
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on November 23, 2024, 08:02:57 PMHey,
for 1 I wasn't complaining. Love to see it mixed in with the bits.
Completely agree on trusting Shaka. ANd I still remain a Zaide confidant even with the non existent O this year. Probably not as much as Ners but, still.
Norman has me fully on edge tho. Hoping as you said the Shaka trust factors puts that to bed.
I know, you're good.
I'd tell you Norman is playing hurt and none of us know how hurt. Is he playing more than he would have had Jones been healthy?
He needs to be better. Let's see how it plays out
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 23, 2024, 07:51:13 PMThis is a good take. He needs to trust himself on the offensive end.
A related quote from Shaka in the JS game article:
" "We have continue to build our bench," Smart said. "We have to continue to build an understanding that when you come off the bench, there has to be a singular focus on helping your team get stops."
Shaka isn't looking for scoring off the bench. What gets and keeps those guys in games at this stage will be D.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 23, 2024, 07:58:59 PMListen, the amount of bad real takes on this board makes that really hard.
Tre and Zaide are going to take a lot of heat this year and next. New Jop and Ben.
The kids have the athleticism and talent to be real good players. The growth might be rough at times and that'll be frustrating but, man, what does this staff have to do to earn trust?
They'll have misses and maybe these two end up as misses but discarding them a year and 8 games into their second season is simply stupid
Exactly. As long as Shaka is here, I have zero concerns about what the future holds. It's going to be great.
Quote from: Zog from Margo on November 23, 2024, 08:26:15 PMA related quote from Shaka in the JS game article:
" "We have continue to build our bench," Smart said. "We have to continue to build an understanding that when you come off the bench, there has to be a singular focus on helping your team get stops."
Shaka isn't looking for scoring off the bench. What gets and keeps those guys in games at this stage will be D.
Bench D is the key. Shaka doesn't want someone out there clueless on that end.
But he definitely will still go to a scoring punch.
Kam played like 20 min as a freshman and in Kams own words Shaka told him his D would keep him off the floor.
Shaka knows what he's doing. But also what he's doing is not trying to make our bench a worse version of Penn State v Wisconsin back in the day. Jop used to be a very blahhhh defender at best. He also was 6th man of the year.
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on November 23, 2024, 07:54:56 PMI gotta say.
I do about 50 double takes when Rico drops serious replies
That's because they're so rare. Too bad, he can bring a lot to the discussion when he wants to.
Rico understands Scoop more than anyone.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on November 23, 2024, 08:38:18 PMRico understands Scoop more than anyone.
What's to understand? It's not a Joyce novel or quantum physics.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 23, 2024, 08:43:19 PMWhat's to understand? It's not a Joyce novel or quantum physics.
Yet you struggle...
Not to incriminate myself
But wtf is a Joyce novel
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on November 23, 2024, 08:47:09 PMNot to incriminate myself
But wtf is a Joyce novel
You just did.
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on November 23, 2024, 08:47:09 PMNot to incriminate myself
But wtf is a Joyce novel
James Joyce is an Irish author and most of his stuff is rather esoteric. Hated reading his stuff.
For a team that's playing this well despite a lack of bench scoring is certainly nice to see, however it is a legitimate concern and very reasonable thing to bring up for discussion. Neither Lowery or Norman has elevated their game as we would have hoped. I can see them falling below Owens quickly on the depth chart.
Quote from: Markusquette on November 23, 2024, 10:25:23 PMFor a team that's playing this well despite a lack of bench scoring is certainly nice to see, however it is a legitimate concern and very reasonable thing to bring up for discussion. Neither Lowery or Norman has elevated their game as we would have hoped. I can see them falling below Owens quickly on the depth chart.
I'm really not all that concerned. The bench isn't being asked to do much besides give good energy and defense. If an injury thrusts one of them into a starting role, then we will see who steps up, but barring that, I think they're fine.
I remember when Oso sucked and was a wasted scholarship.
I remember when Kolek sucked and would never be a point guard.
I remember when Omax sucked and fell down too much.
I remember when Stevie was soft and just a guy.
I remember when Kam was a conscience free checker.
And that is just Players under Shaka.
Remember when Butler looked lost? When Crowder had to come off the bench because he fouled too much?
Patience is a virtue. Enjoy watching these kids develop. Remember that at least a couple of them are working through injuries.
Speaking of which, it will be surprising but nice if Sean can play this season. If/when he returns, you are setting yourself up for more disappointment if you expect instant big minute difference making. He is going to need time to get up to game speed.
Quote from: tower912 on November 24, 2024, 06:59:31 AMI remember when Oso sucked and was a wasted scholarship.
I remember when Kolek sucked and would never be a point guard.
I remember when Omax sucked and fell down too much.
I remember when Stevie was soft and just a guy.
I remember when Kam was a conscience free checker.
And that is just Players under Shaka.
Remember when Butler looked lost? When Crowder had to come off the bench because he fouled too much?
Patience is a virtue. Enjoy watching these kids develop. Remember that at least a couple of them are working through injuries.
Speaking of which, it will be surprising but nice if Sean can play this season. If/when he returns, you are setting yourself up for more disappointment if you expect instant big minute difference making. He is going to need time to get up to game speed.
Stevie was Dung recently and then there is Goooold Briiiiiick
Ben started the season shooting poorly. He did not let it effect his defense. Shaka has been saying that as soon as Ben believes he is as good as the coaching staff knows he is, he is going to be a different player.
Savor watching him become that.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 23, 2024, 08:37:21 PMThat's because they're so rare. Too bad, he can bring a lot to the discussion when he wants to.
Yeah! We should file Rico charges against the uncle.
Whether it's a concern or just a question mark, there is an issue that MU currently has virtually no scoring punch on the bench. Parham has been able to contribute a bucket or two, but that's about it.
That can be an issue in tight games when the starters need a rest or have foul trouble. What happens if one of them has to miss games with an injury is another issue.
I'm looking forward to the two games this week when hopefully the team can avoid a CMU or St. Thomas type game and let the scholarship bench players get more extended playing time. It might give us more confidence that they can fill in effectively if they have to play more than 4 or 5 minutes in a game because of injury or foul trouble.
I was disappointed that Owens missed a few weeks of practice and the first few games because his performance in the open practice made me think he could provide a spark off the bench that Norman and Lowery haven't. Hopefully he has recovered enough to play 15 or 20 minutes in these games to see what he can do.
At this point I have very little concern in regard to the bench play. They are six games into the season and the top freshman started the season out injured. IMO, we likely will see either Norman or Zaide step it up a bit once they get some floor time and start to relax, my bet is it will be Zaide. Owens will become a regular contributor in the upcoming weeks and hopefully Sean Jones does return this season.
Last year I got caught in the trap of putting much emphasis on the November games and it cost me as a fan and missed some of the enjoyment of the conference schedule. Right now, it has been a very good start to the season, and they were looking like they will be ready for BE play. I am taking a wait and see approach to the bench and expecting game by game improvements from the bench guys.
Will add, if the bench does improve this team might be better positioned come tournament time than the two previous years. Many on here thought MU was easy to scout and may have been right to some degree. If the defense continues to stay patient and relentless that is far harder to scout, imo. The defense should protect them from any scoring droughts that may happen this season.
I think the bench will be just fine. The talent is there.
Once Sean is fully cleared he will help the rest of the bench just with his presence in the 2nd unit in practice. Royce is awesome. Damarius is awesome, just needs more time...and I fully trust Tre and Zaide defensively.
Marquette is easy to scout because the offense is basically the same. 5 man out motion. More pick and pop than pick and roll. If the threes are landing, MU is very tough to beat.
MU'S defense is fundamentally unchanged. Aggressive on the ball, aggressive traps, try to turn the offense over. A full court press to take time off the clock. A 3-2 zone that either stays static or switches to man halfway through the shot clock as the other team starts their cuts, having stood still for 5 second and then gone into their zone action.
How well is MU shooting 3s and how effective is their pressure?
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on November 24, 2024, 10:23:31 AMI think the bench will be just fine. The talent is there.
Once Sean is fully cleared he will help the rest of the bench just with his presence in the 2nd unit in practice. Royce is awesome. Damarius is awesome, just needs more time...and I fully trust Tre and Zaide defensively.
Yep.
Quote from: tower912 on November 24, 2024, 10:24:36 AMMarquette is easy to scout because the offense is basically the same. 5 man out motion. More pick and pop than pick and roll. If the threes are landing, MU is very tough to beat.
MU'S defense is fundamentally unchanged. Aggressive on the ball, aggressive traps, try to turn the offense over. A full court press to take time off the clock. A 3-2 zone that either stays static or switches to man halfway through the shot clock as the other team starts their cuts, having stood still for 5 second and then gone into their zone action.
How well is MU shooting 3s and how effective is their pressure?
I would argue that also makes them tougher to guard. They don't have a ton of sets. A true motion is just flow of the game type stuff. There is no scout for it. There's no script to it and Marquette has 5 versatile players on the court at all times.
Quote from: CountryRoads on November 23, 2024, 01:11:23 PMActually looking forward to a more relaxed week for MU hoops hopefully. This was a tough stretch of games. Will be easier to enjoy some of the other great games this week. Will be nice to see extended run from MU's second unit as well.
Is there such a thing as a relaxed week of MUBB?
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on November 24, 2024, 10:40:32 AMI would argue that also makes them tougher to guard. They don't have a ton of sets. A true motion is just flow of the game type stuff. There is no scout for it. There's no script to it and Marquette has 5 versatile players on the court at all times.
Yes, like Nova used to be.
Tower
While MU's defense may be similar to years past, it definitely has a different vibe and is causing more problems. IMO, that is due to not having TK playing 30+ minutes, a more in shape Joplin and healthy Ross. In addition, it looks far more refined to me this year and more focused. The previous years the defense was more of an annoyance to the opposing team vs. now being 40 minutes of smart pressure.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 23, 2024, 07:58:59 PMListen, the amount of bad real takes on this board makes that really hard.
Tre and Zaide are going to take a lot of heat this year and next. New Jop and Ben.
The kids have the athleticism and talent to be real good players. The growth might be rough at times and that'll be frustrating but, man, what does this staff have to do to earn trust?
They'll have misses and maybe these two end up as misses but discarding them a year and 8 games into their second season is simply stupid
Same basketball Einstein's that thought Oso was a bust and we wasted a scholarship on Jimmy Butler.
Quote from: Goose on November 24, 2024, 10:55:13 AMTower
While MU's defense may be similar to years past, it definitely has a different vibe and is causing more problems. IMO, that is due to not having TK playing 30+ minutes, a more in shape Joplin and healthy Ross. In addition, it looks far more refined to me this year and more focused. The previous years the defense was more of an annoyance to the opposing team vs. now being 40 minutes of smart pressure.
We agree. Ross for TKo is a huge upgrade on defense. I am going to watch some more, but so far it is my impression that MU is switching more 1-4 than 1-5, trying to keep Ben on a big. He is still hedging, doubling, turning, but it seems that he returns to the opposing big sooner than Oso did.
It's reassuring to see the other starters (Joplin and Gold) have great performances which ultimately was the difference maker yesterday. Parham has been a bright spot off the bench. The rest is tbd regarding Zaide, Tre, Caedin, Owens. Is Sean Jones actually coming back in time this year to make it worthwhile?
Quote from: Markusquette on November 24, 2024, 12:01:50 PMIt's reassuring to see the other starters (Joplin and Gold) have great performances which ultimately was the difference maker yesterday. Parham has been a bright spot off the bench. The rest is tbd regarding Zaide, Tre, Caedin, Owens. Is Sean Jones actually coming back in time this year to make it worthwhile?
At least this thread gave scoopers something else to talk about. I noticed that no one was complaining about Jop after the game....so there's
that.
The bench is great. If they were any better, they wouldn't be "the bench." We have a legit full second unit. It seems that they struggle at times because a lot of the time they are all in together. The individual players will look better when they are in there with 4 other starters. They will each have their moment to shine this year in that situation.
Bench players in basketball have two basic missions: play hard D and don't make turnovers . Any scoring is icing on the cake.
When the current bench starts to get more reps their offense will start to blossom.
Country Roads
I agree on playing with 3-4 starters at the same time. I love Shaka will have 3 bench players on the court at the same time because that is how they learn.
Quote from: tower912 on November 24, 2024, 07:18:53 AMBen started the season shooting poorly. He did not let it effect his defense. Shaka has been saying that as soon as Ben believes he is as good as the coaching staff knows he is, he is going to be a different player.
Savor watching him become that.
His confidence in his new role is growing. His shot had little fade away and more arc the last two games. There were a couple times where I almost wanted him at 6'11" to go straight up and hit a three pointer in a defenders face while he was handling the ball. Not quite that confident yet and probably not the shot Shaka wants because he prefers catch and shoot threes. But it will come. Needs to get a little more nasty on his drives to the hoop but that will come as well. And his defense has been excellent. I am enjoying watching him develop like you are.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 24, 2024, 08:20:06 PMHis confidence in his new role is growing. His shot had little fade away and more arc the last two games. There were a couple times where I almost wanted him at 6'11" to go straight up and hit a three pointer in a defenders face while he was handling the ball. Not quite that confident yet and probably not the shot Shaka wants because he prefers catch and shoot threes. But it will come. Needs to get a little more nasty violent on his drives to the hoop but that will come as well. And his defense has been excellent. I am enjoying watching him develop like you are.
Fixed it for you, using Shaka's word.
Shooter
Gold might be just scratching the surface of becoming an impact player. He has shown glimpses and think he will continue to show more as confidence grows.
I said last year or the year before that Gold looks to have that TK chip or arrogance and as he continues to grow as a player he will get more nasty. He has played tentatively for two years and lacking confidence has been his biggest problem, imo.
Moved to another thread.
Hhhmmmmm
Need more.
Didn't get to see the game (thank God) but box score doesn't suggest bueno.
Brutal.
Bench problems highlighted in the DePaul game, but then again the bench is majority freshman
Quote from: MU24 on January 14, 2025, 08:47:52 PMBench problems highlighted in the DePaul game, but then again the bench is majority freshman
But they still gotta give you something. The starters all played 30+ mpg. Four of them 37+.
That's just not sustainable.
I know this staff hangs their hats on development, but I just don't see how we are going to be any good next year. We are losing too much and there just doesn't seem to be anything behind them. I hope I'm wrong.
Next year problem. Half a season to go.
Owens, in particular, looks lost right now. If I had to wager, I'd bet that a year from now he's a darn player for us, but it sure would be nice for the starters if we could get some of the juju he had in some of his early games now.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 14, 2025, 09:01:22 PMI know this staff hangs their hats on development, but I just don't see how we are going to be any good next year. We are losing too much and there just doesn't seem to be anything behind them. I hope I'm wrong.
Could be a huge step back. Or something could click for the freshmen currently battling through it.
I'm just glad that we are winning thru all the scuffling
Quote from: tower912 on January 14, 2025, 09:01:59 PMNext year problem. Half a season to go.
Yup. This team is going to have a completely different identity. They are adding great outside shooting in Militec and Phillips. They'll have a real 7 footer with a 7'4" (or whatever) wingspan behind Benny G. Zaide and Damarius will have more freedom to be the athletes they are.
No reason to worry now!
Quote from: tower912 on January 14, 2025, 09:01:59 PMNext year problem. Half a season to go.
I'm worried about 2028
Quote from: MU82 on January 14, 2025, 10:15:45 PMOwens, in particular, looks lost right now. If I had to wager, I'd bet that a year from now he's a darn player for us, but it sure would be nice for the starters if we could get some of the juju he had in some of his early games now.
I'd like to see him worked in for Chase/Jop/Stevie and play with four starters. Playing three bench guys at a time is not helping any of them.
The ceiling for this team is considerably lower if the bench cannot take some of the load off of the starters. Its just not sustainable for guys to be playing 35+ min a night over the course of a Big East season, the conference is just too physical.
I think its safe to say both freshman have hit a wall, Damarious in particular, but they've both shown they can play at this level and have good upside. Hopefully they get past it soon. The sophomores though have me concerned. For having 18 months of college basketball under their belts, neither of them appear to have improved on the offensive end and still make silly mistakes defensively.
Not sure what the best rotation adjustments would be but I do think staggering the minutes more, if possible, would be helpful.
When Kam is out it feels like we need the 4 other starters in. Otherwise, 2 bench guys at most when Kam is in.
Obviously this all depends on fouls, game flow, match-ups, etc. and Shaka knows the team and match-ups much more than we do.
Agreed that Owens and Parham seem to have hit the wall. Hopefully they can work through it and become trusted options for 8-12 minutes a game when we get to February and March.
Was a little surprised Zaide only saw 5 minutes - felt he had been playing better lately.
Quote from: Warrior2008 on January 15, 2025, 08:59:51 AMThe ceiling for this team is considerably lower if the bench cannot take some of the load off of the starters. Its just not sustainable for guys to be playing 35+ min a night over the course of a Big East season, the conference is just too physical.
I think its safe to say both freshman have hit a wall, Damarious in particular, but they've both shown they can play at this level and have good upside. Hopefully they get past it soon. The sophomores though have me concerned. For having 18 months of college basketball under their belts, neither of them appear to have improved on the offensive end and still make silly mistakes defensively.
I agree with this. And your last paragraph points out my concern. The fact that experienced sophomores don't hunt their shots more seems concerning. For an athletic guy Zaide doesn't drive to the hoop, at all. Tre is the same but is less athletic and doesn't have a jump shot. Both are tough on defense but the team needs more out of them. If they had the ability I believe it would have shown up by now. Shaka has historically encouraged players to play to their strengths.
Think about what Kam was doing his sophomore year for comparison. Stevie as a sophomore was impactful as well (Justin Lewis sophomore year , Kolek sophomore year, Omax sophomore year, Oso when he got playing time).
Extremely random good games, 1 out of every 10 or so, is for projects not high major future impact players. Parnham and Owens, albeit hitting the freshman wall, at least show inklings of future starter/impact potential.
And this is not a future concern . This is a ceiling for this year concern.
Keep developing fellas! Plenty of time for Owens and Parnham to get it going.
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on January 14, 2025, 10:31:07 PMYup. This team is going to have a completely different identity. They are adding great outside shooting in Militec and Phillips. They'll have a real 7 footer with a 7'4" (or whatever) wingspan behind Benny G. Zaide and Damarius will have more freedom to be the athletes they are.
No reason to worry now!
Exactly. Some Scoopers said we needed to go our a get a transfer to fill OMax's departure. Then they said we need a big and a PG when TKO and Oso left.
Here we are top ten in the country after we lost those guys.
For some to say....I know we develop our players and all but next year we are gonna take a step back is unnecessary.
Hasn't Shaka and company earned the opportunity to develop each class before you say we're doomed?
Also.......he's not going out and getting a transfer without season ending injuries.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on January 15, 2025, 09:38:01 AMI agree with this. And your last paragraph points out my concern. The fact that experienced sophomores don't hunt their shots more seems concerning. For an athletic guy Zaide doesn't drive to the hoop, at all. Tre is the same but is less athletic and doesn't have a jump shot. Both are tough on defense but the team needs more out of them. If they had the ability I believe it would have shown up by now. Shaka has historically encouraged players to play to their strengths.
Think about what Kam was doing his sophomore year for comparison. Stevie as a sophomore was impactful as well (Justin Lewis sophomore year , Kolek sophomore year, Omax sophomore year, Oso when he got playing time).
Extremely random good games, 1 out of every 10 or so, is for projects not high major future impact players. Parnham and Owens, albeit hitting the freshman wall, at least show inklings of future starter/impact potential.
And this is not a future concern . This is a ceiling for this year concern.
Keep developing fellas! Plenty of time for Owens and Parnham to get it going.
This - it's hard to see us cutting down the nets unless we see some significant improvement from the bench - doesn't necessarily have to be the same guy every game - but we need consistent positive contributions from 2 or 3 of the 5 every game so that the bench stat line shows some positive contribution. We've seen that in flashes, but concerning when the entire bench line was 0 pts, 6 rebs, 2 assts, 1 steal and a 1 block on 0-5 shooting (only 5 shots!) in a total of 33 minutes - against the worst or second worst team in the league.
What troubles me most about Tre and Zaide is that they both seem to want to get rid of the ball very quickly when it comes to them - no thought of going to the basket, etc. They have both had a couple of positive moments offensively, and I thought maybe they were turning the corner. But, now they both seem to have regressed again on offense. As for the freshmen, they look like they have a long, long way to go. This team is eventually going to pay for its lack of bench strength.
A half season to go. Plenty of time for the the switch to flip. And it will probably have to.
Scoop reads like we have a bad team despite being undefeated in 2 conferences so far.
Quote from: Spotcheck Billy on January 15, 2025, 10:59:03 AMScoop reads like we have a bad team despite being undefeated in 2 conferences so far.
It is a real concern. That fact that we've been able to win anyways is always enjoyable, but it will catch up to us if it doesn't improve. The next 4 in the "easy" first half of the schedule are all either at home, or against the bottom of the conference, hopefully it can get figured out by the time the "difficult" back half arrives.
Quote from: Spotcheck Billy on January 15, 2025, 10:59:03 AMScoop reads like we have a bad team despite being undefeated in 2 conferences so far.
New here?
It is a legit concern that I think works itself out but I also thought this thread was about brunch
Quote from: tower912 on January 15, 2025, 10:38:15 AMA half season to go. Plenty of time for the the switch to flip. And it will probably have to.
That's what I keep telling myself as well. Long way to go. Would be nice to see at least one of the main four bench players have a game against Xavier. Personally, I'd like to see Owens get going. His athleticism would really help.
Quote from: Spotcheck Billy on January 15, 2025, 10:59:03 AMScoop reads like we have a bad team despite being undefeated in 2 conferences so far.
Not to state the obvious, but if I had to guess, they want to see the next step.
In reality, this team won't take a next step in the regular season from where we are and have been the last 3 years. These last 3 seasons are the peak as far as regular seasons go.
The next step can only be taken in March and to take that step they will likely need production from their bench. Plenty of time to figure it out, and I believe they are capable. Every single one of them.
Shaka could make Duane right for the wrong reason. Go full Buzz and use the Erik Williams-Jae Crowder strategy. The question is which starter would be better off the bench, and which bench player could survive until the first media timeout.
Out of character for Shaka and do not think for a second he would do it. I also do not think it would make this team better. But it is a strategy.
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on January 15, 2025, 11:27:06 AMIn reality, this team won't take a next step in the regular season from where we are and have been the last 3 years. These last 3 seasons are the peak as far as regular seasons go.
Wait till you find out about 1 seeds
Quote from: tower912 on January 15, 2025, 11:42:53 AMShaka could make Duane right for the wrong reason. Go full Buzz and use the Erik Williams-Jae Crowder strategy. The question is which starter would be better off the bench, and which bench player could survive until the first media timeout.
Out of character for Shaka and do not think for a second he would do it. I also do not think it would make this team better. But it is a strategy.
During that few game stretch where Kam was constantly getting whistled I was thinking the same
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 15, 2025, 11:47:31 AMWait till you find out about 1 seeds
I just don't see that changing much of anything.
Getting 3 consecutive 2 seeds is more impressive than getting a one off 1 seed. They have been right there at the top for 3 consecutive regular seasons. At this point it is a proven sustained top regular season caliber program...and they've improved every season in their March Madness results.
They just need to figure out a way to continue to improve in the March Madness single elimination setting. They are capable.
Quote from: 1SE on November 23, 2024, 12:11:23 PMHow much of a concern?
For a November post, it's aged pretty well.
Believe we had zero points from bench last night with some starters over 40 minutes of PT. Obviously not sustainable. This is also not a formula for success in NCAA tourney when a team can play multiple tough games in a row. Hopefully freshman come around w 2nd wind right before BE tourney, which is typical.
On side note, I am curious to see how we play v SJ who is a very physical team.
Keep getting the young guys as much experience as possible. It will be invaluable for next year.
MU has had a very clear (and nowadays unusual) hierarchy the last few years. The Seniors are better than the Juniors, the Juniors are better than the Sophomores, etc. There is a strong correlation between a player's age or time in the program and the minutes they get and how much they produce. I can see how from a mental standpoint it could be hard for the younger guys to break through and shake up the order of things.
I think these guys are a lot more ready to go than what they've shown lately. In times they've truly been needed, they've stepped up. ISU game with Chase's injury and foul trouble, Parham and Owens were great is one example. When Shaka has like 4 bench guys in at a time though, that's just not really a recipe for success and it's expected our lead is going to quickly evaporate.
At the end of tough games, one big sign of fatigue is that shots tend to be short.
And yet, there Kam and Chase were, swishing huge 3s at the end of regulation. And there Jop was, hitting two 3s in the first minute of OT.
And for that matter, there Gold was, leaping to block a shot (that was definitely not goaltending) and forcing the game-clinchingg turnover at the end of OT. And there Stevie was, wreaking defensive havoc and hitting two big shots.
I agree we need more from the bench, and it would be preferable that our starters didn't have to play 35+ minutes every game - especially against the likes of DePaul. But college games, especially at the end, take forever. The timeouts called by coaches and used by refs for replays, are frequent and long. And these are some finely conditioned athletes.
So I think some of the hand-wringing is a little over the top.
Marquette's starters are averaging 33.5, 32.0, 29.9, 27.2, and 26.2 mpg. Villanova's starters in 2017-2018 averaged 32.1, 31.8, 29.8, 29.3, and 28.1 mpg. Nova's team was so worn out that they won their last 11 games to win a national title.
They're college kids who get 2+ days off between games throughout the year. We aren't going to lose games because we're tired.
Yea, I don't think we need the bench to show up because the starters are getting tired/worn down, I think we need the bench to show up because at some point, the wrong combination of starters are going to have off nights. Kam's struggles (efficiency wise) have been well documented and if we don't get career highs from Chase and Jop, as well as Ben tying his career high, we'd have losses against Gtown and DePaul. We're playing with fire, and unless there's improvement from somewhere, it will catch up to us as the schedule get tougher.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 16, 2025, 11:45:56 AMMarquette's starters are averaging 33.5, 32.0, 29.9, 27.2, and 26.2 mpg. Villanova's starters in 2017-2018 averaged 32.1, 31.8, 29.8, 29.3, and 28.1 mpg. Nova's team was so worn out that they won their last 11 games to win a national title.
They're college kids who get 2+ days off between games throughout the year. We aren't going to lose games because we're tired.
Exactly.
Quote from: Its DJOver on January 16, 2025, 11:57:07 AMYea, I don't think we need the bench to show up because the starters are getting tired/worn down, I think we need the bench to show up because at some point, the wrong combination of starters are going to have off nights. Kam's struggles (efficiency wise) have been well documented and if we don't get career highs from Chase and Jop, as well as Ben tying his career high, we'd have losses against Gtown and DePaul. We're playing with fire, and unless there's improvement from somewhere, it will catch up to us as the schedule get tougher.
That's fair. But one also could argue that the "improvement" in those situations came from Ross and Joplin.
Look, I am definitely not saying it's good that we're getting little from our bench. Ideally, Shaka would have 2-3 guys he can count on to deliver game-in and game-out. But even though that's not reality right now, I don't think it's a reason to panic. (Nor am I saying that you are panicking.)
Cannot play 3 bench guys at the same time. They individually can contribute some things when surrounded by the veterans, but they are not ready to play a lineup of mostly bench guys.
Forcing some TOs but only 1 live ball TO in transition. Offense can't generate anything in sets right now.
*Oops. Wrong thread*
Royce Parham is shooting 40% from 3 in Conference play. He is 10-25.
Zaide Lowery is shooting 45.5% from 3 in Conference play. He is 10-22.
Those are your 2 guys that should be getting more time.
Zaide, Royce, and Damarius are also 16-18 from the free throw line (88.8%) in Conference play. All capable of getting to the basket and drawing fouls. Would love to see that utilized early in games to get some easy points, opponent foul trouble, and a rhythm for our bench. See if those numbers are sustainable.
Royce and Zaide have started to play very well, and Tre is having some good minutes. I just wonder about Owens. He is certainly athletic and seems to have offensive skills, but his minutes are apparently limited because of his defense. Yet, it's tough to develop very quickly when you only get very limited, sporadic minutes.
Quicker development involves more game time = more in season growing pains.
Slower development involves larger year to year jumps, i.e. offseason work = fewer in season growing pains.
There's no right or wrong way to do it, but it's very much pick you poison. I have no doubt that DO could be further along, but it would have involved significantly more frustration to get there.
Quote from: rgoode57 on February 06, 2025, 11:01:26 AMRoyce and Zaide have started to play very well, and Tre is having some good minutes. I just wonder about Owens. He is certainly athletic and seems to have offensive skills, but his minutes are apparently limited because of his defense. Yet, it's tough to develop very quickly when you only get very limited, sporadic minutes.
It's definitely about his defense. He's at 47% from 3 on the year and 88% from the line. He just is a Freshman on defense.
Funny enough, Caedin Hamilton is our team leader in offensive rebounding percentage at 9.5% AND he is 2nd on our team in Assist Rate at 14.5% which is 2nd behind only Kam. Obviously limited minutes from him, but he's done good things when given the opportunity. For him it is also defense.
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on February 06, 2025, 11:08:03 AMIt's definitely about his defense. He's at 47% from 3 on the year and 88% from the line. He just is a Freshman on defense.
Funny enough, Caedin Hamilton is our team leader in offensive rebounding percentage at 9.5% AND he is 2nd on our team in Assist Rate at 14.5% which is 2nd behind only Kam. Obviously limited minutes from him, but he's done good things when given the opportunity. For him it is also defense.
This is why I don't dread next season.
Quote from: tower912 on February 06, 2025, 11:14:03 AMThis is why I don't dread next season.
Yeah. If Sean is back and healthy they will be just fine.
Will Amadou's redshirt year make a difference or will he transfer out.