MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: tower912 on November 18, 2024, 12:45:40 PM

Title: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: tower912 on November 18, 2024, 12:45:40 PM
Not going to do a poll.   The starters played the last 5 minutes against Maryland.  No subs.   That has been Shaka's MO.  So, barring injuries or foul trouble, which non-starter will be the first to break through and get crunch time minutes?

I will say Zaide, as I think there will be a time Shaka wants 4 guards on the floor for defense.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: onepost on November 18, 2024, 01:05:50 PM
Damarius
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: TallTitan34 on November 18, 2024, 01:07:55 PM
Owens.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Its DJOver on November 18, 2024, 01:12:38 PM
I think it'll be Zaide.  I think he's the furthest along defensively and that's clearly a priority during winning time.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on November 18, 2024, 01:20:52 PM
Owens for me as well.  Has the versatility to replace just about anybody.

If Stevie, Chase, or Jop struggle Owens can plug in for any of them.  We might even see a small ball lineup at times with Gold on the bench and Jop at the 5.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: PGsHeroes32 on November 18, 2024, 01:23:37 PM
Owens as he gets reps seems most likely

Zaide with his D is a contender too but right now his offense is absolutely horrific so hes got to get that back to a point where he can at least draw iron on a open corner 3. Or tough to have him out there in crunch time and play 4 on 5 offensively
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: We R Final Four on November 18, 2024, 01:24:57 PM
Jop on offense, Zaide on D.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Hards Alumni on November 18, 2024, 01:35:07 PM
Royce.  If Gold or Jop are fouling too much someone will have to be relied on, and right now Royce gives us offense and defense.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Scoop Snoop on November 18, 2024, 02:05:40 PM
Parham. He's shown what he can do already. Not saying Owens will not be the guy in time, but the here and now? Parham.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Billy Hoyle on November 18, 2024, 03:49:58 PM
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on November 18, 2024, 02:05:40 PMParham. He's shown what he can do already. Not saying Owens will not be the guy in time, but the here and now? Parham.

My thought too for his ability to be a post presence and rebound down the stretch of games.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: rocket surgeon on November 18, 2024, 04:28:23 PM
cousins has been and still is my go to sub.  either the special or double cheese steak on asiago cheese bread for my carb-fest day of the week
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: THRILLHO on November 18, 2024, 05:14:40 PM
Probably depends on who is in foul trouble/fouled out during crunch time first. Since Ben Gold is the least experienced at playing with fouls he might be the logical pick. Shaka does seem to be platooning at that spot already so it would probably have to be a case when Ben picks up a few early ones, Royce gets extended minutes, and Shaka leaves him in with better feel for the game.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: GB Warrior on November 18, 2024, 09:35:10 PM
Royce might be able to give small ball 5 minutes but thats probably not at crunch time. Zaide could give you closing defense minutes if he proved anything at all offensively.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: DoctorV on November 18, 2024, 10:56:33 PM
This exercise works best backwards for me.
 Obviously this is barring injury or unforeseen circumstances, but Kam, Stewie, and Chase aren't coming off at crunch time.

So, either Jop or Ben would sit.

-Owens is versatile and can play the 4, but not likely the 5.
-Zaide can play the 4, but not the 5. As many have said he's the leading defensive candidate.
-Parham can play the 4 or the 5 and is the most advance offensively, at the moment.
-Caedin can play the 5, but not the 4. Would only get in if size and rebounding were needed at this point.
-This thread really makes me wish for Tre to have a big game that catapults his season.

So, I'll go with Parham.

FWIW I was with a buddy that's really in tune with NCAAb (especially the recruiting side) over the weekend (UNC fan) and he said he expected, or had read, that big money would come for Parham in the off season.
Caught me by surprise
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: jfp61 on November 18, 2024, 11:02:30 PM
The two true freshmen should be.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: DoctorV on November 18, 2024, 11:03:29 PM
Quote from: DoctorV on November 18, 2024, 10:56:33 PMWhoops quoted myself on accident, must be time for bed, even though I love to hear myself speak.

Is there a way to delete a post on mobile? Couldn't find it
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Hards Alumni on November 19, 2024, 06:19:03 AM
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 18, 2024, 04:28:23 PMcousins has been and still is my go to sub.  either the special or double cheese steak on asiago cheese bread for my carb-fest day of the week

lmao
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 19, 2024, 06:27:19 AM
FWIW I was with a buddy that's really in tune with NCAAb (especially the recruiting side) over the weekend (UNC fan) and he said he expected, or had read, that big money would come for Parham in the off season.
Caught me by surprise

Dr. V,

I would think that would be more expected (for anyone that has eyes) than read, unless there is a service sending power conference teams extremely up to date information based on a few games. I would not be surprised if that is the case though.  It is such big business.

MU will deal with more of this as we become a product of our own success.  Better recruits that are lured by Shaka's pitch initially will need increasingly higher amounts of money to stay even if they love MU and Shaka.  $200,000 vs $1,000,000 is a big difference if that choice is available to them. 

Need a few big donors to come through with a  huge endowment fund so this is sustainable for the university.  It honestly should be part of the marketing budget. Need a President who understands this.  Big decisions ahead.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Jay Bee on November 19, 2024, 07:25:46 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 19, 2024, 06:27:19 AMNeed a few big donors to come through with a  huge endowment fund so this is sustainable for the university.  It honestly should be part of the marketing budget. Need a President who understands this.  Big decisions ahead.

Ummmm...
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 19, 2024, 07:34:07 AM
Quote from: Jay Bee on November 19, 2024, 07:25:46 AMUmmmm...

I know JB.  But I hear the train a coming......
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Scoop Snoop on November 19, 2024, 07:49:38 AM
I love to see threads like this one vs. the endless, pointless ones criticizing Ben and Jop or the preachy, laughable lectures to Shaka and the team from a scooper who will advocate for various forms of mayhem in another thread.

It's great that Shaka has some options if he needs them. I was surprised by the number of minutes that he gave to the bench in the Maryland game. It's very possible that Shaka knows more than scoopers.   :D

Thanks to Tower for starting this thread.

 
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Newsdreams on November 19, 2024, 07:52:20 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 19, 2024, 06:27:19 AMFWIW I was with a buddy that's really in tune with NCAAb (especially the recruiting side) over the weekend (UNC fan) and he said he expected, or had read, that big money would come for Parham in the off season.
Caught me by surprise

Dr. V,

I would think that would be more expected (for anyone that has eyes) than read, unless there is a service sending power conference teams extremely up to date information based on a few games. I would not be surprised if that is the case though.  It is such big business.

MU will deal with more of this as we become a product of our own success.  Better recruits that are lured by Shaka's pitch initially will need increasingly higher amounts of money to stay even if they love MU and Shaka.  $200,000 vs $1,000,000 is a big difference if that choice is available to them. 

Need a few big donors to come through with a  huge endowment fund so this is sustainable for the university.  It honestly should be part of the marketing budget. Need a President who understands this.  Big decisions ahead.
Need the dentists to man up put up the $$$
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: tower912 on November 19, 2024, 08:04:41 AM
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on November 19, 2024, 07:49:38 AMI love to see threads like this one vs. the endless, pointless ones criticizing Ben and Jop or the preachy, laughable lectures to Shaka and the team from a scooper who will advocate for various forms of mayhem in another thread.

It's great that Shaka has some options if he needs them. I was surprised by the number of minutes that he gave to the bench in the Maryland game. It's very possible that Shaka knows more than scoopers.   :D

Thanks to Tower for starting this thread.

 
De Nada.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: wadesworld on November 19, 2024, 10:19:01 AM
Sean.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Scoop Snoop on November 19, 2024, 10:34:48 AM
Quote from: wadesworld on November 19, 2024, 10:19:01 AMSean.

I really like this answer!
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Hards Alumni on November 19, 2024, 10:37:46 AM
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on November 19, 2024, 10:34:48 AMI really like this answer!

you can just click the thumbs up!
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: PGsHeroes32 on November 19, 2024, 10:46:45 AM
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 19, 2024, 10:37:46 AMyou can just click the thumbs up!

But there's no really like button!
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Scoop Snoop on November 19, 2024, 11:12:20 AM
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on November 19, 2024, 10:46:45 AMBut there's no really like button!

Exactly! I really like your post.  ;D
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Spotcheck Billy on November 19, 2024, 11:43:48 AM
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 19, 2024, 10:37:46 AMyou can just click the thumbs up!
post count is post count
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Jockey on November 20, 2024, 06:06:39 PM
My guess is Parham when both Ben and Jop are in foul trouble
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: tower912 on December 19, 2024, 06:06:36 AM
Zaide became the first sub to play crunch time minutes.  Subbed in for Ben as Butler had gone small.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: NCMUFan on December 19, 2024, 06:52:48 AM
Quote from: tower912 on December 19, 2024, 06:06:36 AMZaide became the first sub to play crunch time minutes.  Subbed in for Ben as Butler had gone small.
Congratulations Zaide and we thank all the other contestants.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: tower912 on December 19, 2024, 07:20:49 AM
Scoop crypto will be doled out accordingly.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: 94Warrior on December 19, 2024, 08:32:35 AM
Tre was also in the game with under 5 mins remaining.  At the time it caught my attention.  Don't remember when he subbed out.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: The Sultan on December 19, 2024, 08:38:06 AM
Tre was in mostly due to Jop's foul trouble and because Butler was playing small. He is a decent defender.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Its DJOver on December 19, 2024, 08:42:36 AM
Shaka prioritizes defense. Whoever was going to crack the wining time rotation was going to do so because of their defense. Zaide is the furthest along on that end.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: 1SE on December 19, 2024, 12:52:20 PM
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 19, 2024, 08:38:06 AMTre was in mostly due to Jop's foul trouble and because Butler was playing small. He is a decent defender.

Shaka was subbing Tre and Ben O for D a bit there are the end - Butler's game plan was clearly whoever Ben was guarding to take him off the dribble - and most of the time it worked. Ben's 3 was huge and timely last night, and he had a few good rebounds and hustles, but dude is a major liability on D - he gets beat like 70% of the time in 1v1s which either leads to a layup or everyone else getting out of position and a kick out to a wide open 3. He just cannot stay in front of his man in a 1v1 situation.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: wisblue on December 19, 2024, 01:55:05 PM
So much depends on what kind of game it is, like whether MU is slightly ahead or slightly behind, what the matchups are, etc.

Shaka showed last night that he won't hesitate to make offense/defense type substitutions in the final minutes if the situation calls for it, like he did with Lowrey and Gold last night.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: wadesworld on December 19, 2024, 02:04:20 PM
Quote from: 1SE on December 19, 2024, 12:52:20 PMShaka was subbing Tre and Ben O for D a bit there are the end - Butler's game plan was clearly whoever Ben was guarding to take him off the dribble - and most of the time it worked. Ben's 3 was huge and timely last night, and he had a few good rebounds and hustles, but dude is a major liability on D - he gets beat like 70% of the time in 1v1s which either leads to a layup or everyone else getting out of position and a kick out to a wide open 3. He just cannot stay in front of his man in a 1v1 situation.

We watched different games, I think.  Ben got beat off the dribble a couple times.  But 70% of the time?  Yeah, no.  I saw more times that Ben played great defense and a player hit a prayer of a shot than I saw Ben get completely burned off the dribble.  That's definitely the weakest part of his defense, but he's been a lot better than I expected.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33dMy3C-5uY
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: tower912 on December 19, 2024, 02:17:10 PM
That video lends credence to the notion that Ben was not getting beat off the dribble and was actually right where he needed to be on defense.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: MUfan12 on December 19, 2024, 03:04:03 PM
Zaide was getting cooked off the bounce as much, if not more, than Ben did.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: MuMark on December 19, 2024, 07:27:49 PM
I mean typically when Ben gets beat off the dribble it is by a much smaller/quicker player.....the vast majority of 6'10 guys will have trouble in that situation from time to time.......not everyone is going to guard like Oso out there.

He also had a great help play late in the game when Kam was fronting a big in the post and they tried to throw it over the top.......it would have worked if Ben hadn't reacted quickly on the backside to knock it away.......Kam was pumped after Ben helped him on that play.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Shooter McGavin on December 19, 2024, 08:19:03 PM
Also when Ben does get "beat" by a smaller guard he has the ability to still effect the shot from the side or behind with his length.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 19, 2024, 09:25:09 PM
Quote from: 1SE on December 19, 2024, 12:52:20 PMShaka was subbing Tre and Ben O for D a bit there are the end - Butler's game plan was clearly whoever Ben was guarding to take him off the dribble - and most of the time it worked. Ben's 3 was huge and timely last night, and he had a few good rebounds and hustles, but dude is a major liability on D - he gets beat like 70% of the time in 1v1s which either leads to a layup or everyone else getting out of position and a kick out to a wide open 3. He just cannot stay in front of his man in a 1v1 situation.

This is a wildly bad take
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: FairWeatherEagle on December 19, 2024, 09:39:09 PM
Tough question since I think a starter would have to be in a funk. But perhap
A matchup thing. I see Jop being replaced if he can't hit a shot. Don't want to think about it
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: 1SE on December 19, 2024, 10:42:06 PM
Dude is literally the worst defensive big in the league. He makes some nice plays here and there, but overall his D is not good.

 Not sure why there are so many Ben slurpers here.

https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Big-East-Conference/59/stats/2025/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/All/Season/C/per/desc/1/
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 19, 2024, 11:56:16 PM
Quote from: 1SE on December 19, 2024, 10:42:06 PMDude is literally the worst defensive big in the league. He makes some nice plays here and there, but overall his D is not good.

 Not sure why there are so many Ben slurpers here.

https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Big-East-Conference/59/stats/2025/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/All/Season/C/per/desc/1/


There are many stats that attempt to quantify a players overall defensive value. None of them are good.  Drtg is the worst
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Its DJOver on December 20, 2024, 07:09:02 AM
Let me just make sure I understand all this correctly.  We have "Literally the worst defensive big in the league" Gold, and "Will be addition by subtraction when he's gone" Joplin, both starting, combining for 56 mpg, and we're still 10-2 and ranked in the top 10. Either Shaka is the greatest coach in the history of the game, or there are some bad takes on the Scoop. I wonder which is more likely?
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: tower912 on December 20, 2024, 07:11:32 AM
Both/and, not either/or.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: 1SE on December 20, 2024, 07:38:06 AM
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 19, 2024, 11:56:16 PMThere are many stats that attempt to quantify a players overall defensive value. None of them are good.  Drtg is the worst

You mean none good except the "TAMU eyetest"?

Ben does some defensive things well - he plays well in a zone and provides decent help. If he's in position he can defend the rim/alter shots. But overall his defense is below average - precisely why Shaka was subbing him O for D late. This isn't a controversial take for those without blue and gold glasses on.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 20, 2024, 07:38:45 AM
Quote from: Its DJOver on December 20, 2024, 07:09:02 AMLet me just make sure I understand all this correctly.  We have "Literally the worst defensive big in the league" Gold, and "Will be addition by subtraction when he's gone" Joplin, both starting, combining for 56 mpg, and we're still 10-2 and ranked in the top 10. Either Shaka is the greatest coach in the history of the game, or there are some bad takes on the Scoop. I wonder which is more likely?

As I always say, fans are idiots
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: The Sultan on December 20, 2024, 07:48:58 AM
Quote from: 1SE on December 20, 2024, 07:38:06 AMYou mean none good except the "TAMU eyetest"?

Ben does some defensive things well - he plays well in a zone and provides decent help. If he's in position he can defend the rim/alter shots. But overall his defense is below average - precisely why Shaka was subbing him O for D late. This isn't a controversial take for those without blue and gold glasses on.

He was subbing him out on defense mostly because Butler went five-out and spread the floor with shooters. Ben has been on the floor plenty in crunch time so far.

He looks bad when he gets isolated up top against a guard, like most bigs, and when he has to guard someone with bulk. He's fine...not great, but completely serviceable.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: tower912 on December 20, 2024, 07:49:06 AM
He subbed him because Butler had gone very small.  Then, two made 3 pointers later, he was back in the game.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: DoctorV on December 20, 2024, 08:00:48 AM
Quote from: 1SE on December 19, 2024, 10:42:06 PMDude is literally the worst defensive big in the league. He makes some nice plays here and there, but overall his D is not good.

 Not sure why there are so many Ben slurpers here.

https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Big
Quote from: 1SE on December 19, 2024, 10:42:06 PMDude is literally the worst defensive big in the league. He makes some nice plays here and there, but overall his D is not good.

 Not sure why there are so many Ben slurpers here.

https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Big-East-Conference/59/stats/2025/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/All/Season/C/per/desc/1/

-East-Conference/59/stats/2025/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/All/Season/C/per/desc/1/


You must've missed Christ, man. He was the worst on that list
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Its DJOver on December 20, 2024, 08:09:53 AM
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 20, 2024, 07:38:45 AMAs I always say, fans are idiots

What I don't understand is how, for the most part, Scoopers think that Shaka has done a good job, yet at the same time think all of his players are bad. The results literally speak for themselves, back to back 2 seeds, Beast Championship, Beast tourney Championship, top 10 team, "Shaka is so great", but "all of Shaka's players suck". I guess some people are truly only happy when they're complaining.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Scoop Snoop on December 20, 2024, 08:26:47 AM
Quote from: Its DJOver on December 20, 2024, 08:09:53 AMWhat I don't understand is how, for the most part, Scoopers think that Shaka has done a good job, yet at the same time think all of his players are bad. The results literally speak for themselves, back to back 2 seeds, Beast Championship, Beast tourney Championship, top 10 team, "Shaka is so great", but "all of Shaka's players suck". I guess some people are truly only happy when they're complaining.

Great post. All I will add is that there is a fine line between commenting on players' performances, strengths and weaknesses, and fantasizing (consciously or unconsciously) about one's ability to coach the team. One scooper, whom I will leave anonymous, even writes what are basically fairly lengthy, detailed pregame talks for Shaka to deliver to the team. 
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 20, 2024, 08:27:38 AM
Quote from: Its DJOver on December 20, 2024, 08:09:53 AMWhat I don't understand is how, for the most part, Scoopers think that Shaka has done a good job, yet at the same time think all of his players are bad. The results literally speak for themselves, back to back 2 seeds, Beast Championship, Beast tourney Championship, top 10 team, "Shaka is so great", but "all of Shaka's players suck". I guess some people are truly only happy when they're complaining.

Some fans would rather be right than happy
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Newsdreams on December 20, 2024, 08:31:49 AM
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 20, 2024, 07:38:45 AMAs I always say, fans are idiots
They're dung
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: tower912 on December 20, 2024, 08:41:25 AM
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 20, 2024, 08:27:38 AMSome fans would rather be right than happy

Hold the phone.  That is what one of my old chiefs said about me.  That I would rather be right than promoted.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: 1SE on December 20, 2024, 08:45:24 AM
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 20, 2024, 07:48:58 AMHe was subbing him out on defense mostly because Butler went five-out and spread the floor with shooters. Ben has been on the floor plenty in crunch time so far.

He looks bad when he gets isolated up top against a guard, like most bigs, and when he has to guard someone with bulk. He's fine...not great, but completely serviceable.

He's a below average big, it's ok to admit that. His defense is worse than his offense, but neither is great.

It's fine, we're not going to have an All-American at every position. He's what we have, he does some things well, and it's also fine to admit that the C is the weakest spot on our team and that with a better C we would probably be a national title favorite.

It's also reasonable to think that our ceiling is higher with our Frosh taking big in-season leaps than it is with Ben playing at the level he's shown over the past 3 years.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 20, 2024, 09:06:23 AM
Quote from: 1SE on December 20, 2024, 08:45:24 AMHe's a below average big, it's ok to admit that. His defense is worse than his offense, but neither is great.

It's fine, we're not going to have an All-American at every position. He's what we have, he does some things well, and it's also fine to admit that the C is the weakest spot on our team and that with a better C we would probably be a national title favorite.

It's also reasonable to think that our ceiling is higher with our Frosh taking big in-season leaps than it is with Ben playing at the level he's shown over the past 3 years.

It's too early in the day to be this drunk
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 20, 2024, 09:10:58 AM
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 20, 2024, 09:06:23 AMIt's a dangerous/stupid/
It's too early in the day to be this drunk

Hey it's Christmas time...
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: The Sultan on December 20, 2024, 09:17:36 AM
Quote from: 1SE on December 20, 2024, 08:45:24 AMHe's a below average big, it's ok to admit that. His defense is worse than his offense, but neither is great.

It's fine, we're not going to have an All-American at every position. He's what we have, he does some things well, and it's also fine to admit that the C is the weakest spot on our team and that with a better C we would probably be a national title favorite.

It's also reasonable to think that our ceiling is higher with our Frosh taking big in-season leaps than it is with Ben playing at the level he's shown over the past 3 years.

I don't that's reasonable.

I also think that if he is indeed below average, he isn't much below. That's not me wearing blue and gold glasses - that's years of fine-tuned basketball knowledge.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 20, 2024, 09:18:16 AM
Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 20, 2024, 09:10:58 AMHey it's Christmas time...

I mean, I'm high
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on December 20, 2024, 09:20:35 AM
The Evan Miya site ranks Ben Gold as the 227th best player in the country, 26th in the BE.

But he's below average cuz "eye test."
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Its DJOver on December 20, 2024, 09:21:04 AM
I think it's reasonable to say that no starter for any top ten team is below average. That certainly seems less outrageous than suggesting that if we would be national title favorites with a better C. We had a better C last year, were we title favorites then?
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 20, 2024, 09:28:44 AM
Quote from: Its DJOver on December 20, 2024, 09:21:04 AMI think it's reasonable to say that no starter for any top ten team is below average. That certainly seems less outrageous than suggesting that if we would be national title favorites with a better C. We had a better C last year, were we title favorites then?

No because the two teams that ended up in the title had better Cs
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Newsdreams on December 20, 2024, 10:12:57 AM
What is a C in Shaka's system?
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Hards Alumni on December 20, 2024, 11:40:40 AM
Quote from: Newsdreams on December 20, 2024, 10:12:57 AMWhat is a C in Shaka's system?

A big D
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: 1SE on December 20, 2024, 11:57:54 AM
Quote from: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on December 20, 2024, 09:20:35 AMThe Evan Miya site ranks Ben Gold as the 227th best player in the country, 26th in the BE.

But he's below average cuz "eye test."

The site has him as a 4 rather than 5, and has him 12th in DBPR (again, it's no TAMU eye test...) in the BE amongst 4s and 5s - so just below average amongst starters at those positions in the BE - comparing him nationally is ridiculous- of course he's better than most centers in the MEAC.

It's alright guys, we have a mediocre high major big man - I'm not saying he's the worst, or even that hes not even servicable, I'm just saying he's the weakest link of our starting 5 - he (like many, but not all, big men) has trouble defending on ball on the perimeter, and the is most likely to get subbed out at crunch time -
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: wadesworld on December 20, 2024, 12:01:43 PM
Quote from: 1SE on December 20, 2024, 11:57:54 AMThe site has him as a 4 rather than 5, and has him 12th in DBPR (again, it's no TAMU eye test...) in the BE amongst 4s and 5s - so just below average amongst starters at those positions in the BE - comparing him nationally is ridiculous- of course he's better than most centers in the MEAC.

It's alright guys, we have a mediocre high major big man - I'm not saying he's the worst, or even that hes not even servicable, I'm just saying he's the weakest link of our starting 5 - he (like many, but not all, big men) has trouble defending on ball on the perimeter, and the is most likely to get subbed out at crunch time -


So when you said he's the worst defensive 5 in the Big East, that means every 5 in the conference is better defensively than the best 4 is?  Hmm...

He's gotten subbed out defensively in crunch time in 1 of 12 games so far this year.  "Most likely" is a pretty big stretch there.  Especially when most teams won't have a 6'7" forward as the biggest guy on the floor against us.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Its DJOver on December 20, 2024, 12:01:50 PM
Quote from: 1SE on December 20, 2024, 11:57:54 AMI'm not saying he's the worst

Quote from: 1SE on December 19, 2024, 10:42:06 PMDude is literally the worst
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: The Sultan on December 20, 2024, 12:08:06 PM
Quote from: 1SE on December 20, 2024, 11:57:54 AMIt's alright guys, we have a mediocre high major big man - I'm not saying he's the worst, or even that hes not even servicable, I'm just saying he's the weakest link of our starting 5

Really? This is your argument now?

Because you did say he was the worst defensive big man in the league.

Quote from: 1SE on December 19, 2024, 10:42:06 PMDude is literally the worst defensive big in the league.

Then you claimed he does "some defensive things well."

Quote from: 1SE on December 20, 2024, 07:38:06 AMBen does some defensive things well

Then you said he was "below average."

Quote from: 1SE on December 20, 2024, 08:45:24 AMHe's a below average big

Now he's "mediocre" and "serviceable," and "not the worst"...even though he was the worst defensively as of last night...  He's just the weakest link in the starting five. (Which to me is never really a good argument.)

Honestly I have no idea what you are trying to say.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 20, 2024, 12:57:45 PM
Quote from: 1SE on December 20, 2024, 07:38:06 AMYou mean none good except the "TAMU eyetest"?

Ben does some defensive things well - he plays well in a zone and provides decent help. If he's in position he can defend the rim/alter shots. But overall his defense is below average - precisely why Shaka was subbing him O for D late. This isn't a controversial take for those without blue and gold glasses on.

I mean I wouldn't call it the TAMU eyetest. But generally yeah eyetest is a lot more valuable on defense than it is on offense. There are some great stats that tell you specific things about a player's defensive ability. If you are going to use a stat to try to quantify a player's overall defensive impact over the course of a season, best IMHO is looking at defensive efficiency on/off stats. Ben is currently second on the team.

Shaka  was subbing Ben because Butler went small for the majority of the last ten minutes. You seem to have an idea that being good/bad at defense boils down to how does a player handle being isolated on the perimeter against a smaller and faster defender. Almost all centers are going to struggle in that situation, Ben does better than most.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: MuMark on December 20, 2024, 02:13:58 PM
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 20, 2024, 12:08:06 PMReally? This is your argument now?

Because you did say he was the worst defensive big man in the league.

Then you claimed he does "some defensive things well."

Then you said he was "below average."

Now he's "mediocre" and "serviceable," and "not the worst"...even though he was the worst defensively as of last night...  He's just the weakest link in the starting five. (Which to me is never really a good argument.)

Honestly I have no idea what you are trying to say.

By the end of this thread he will be saying he's " good but not all conference level"  8-)
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 20, 2024, 02:34:34 PM
Quote from: MuMark on December 20, 2024, 02:13:58 PMBy the end of this thread he will be saying he's " good but not all conference level"  8-)

OT but till Kam last year who was the best player (in a season) to not get any accolades?
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: MuMark on December 20, 2024, 02:35:30 PM
Torviks prpg( points above replacement player) has Ben as the 30th best player in the Big East so far this season.........3 of the players above him play for Marquette......

The bigs above him are 6th year player Eric Dixon.......5th year player Kalkbrenner.....5th year player Fremantle.......Reed Jr of Conn......Sorber of Georgetown and 5th year player Mccaffrey of Butler.

So......he is not one of the best bigs in the big east.......he is not a bad player......he is a decent starter on one of the best teams in the league.

So could you quit exaggerating about how terrible he is now? Nobody said he was a stud......he has improved every year and I'd expect that to continue.

https://barttorvik.com/playerstat.php?link=y&cvalue=BE&year=2025&start=20241101&end=20250501
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Carl on December 20, 2024, 06:13:31 PM
I saw the title of this thread and fully expected it to be about sandwiches
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Newsdreams on December 20, 2024, 06:57:58 PM
Quote from: Carl on December 20, 2024, 06:13:31 PMI saw the title of this thread and fully expected it to be about sandwiches
Fck Cousins
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: muwarrior69 on December 20, 2024, 07:06:59 PM
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 20, 2024, 12:57:45 PMI mean I wouldn't call it the TAMU eyetest. But generally yeah eyetest is a lot more valuable on defense than it is on offense. There are some great stats that tell you specific things about a player's defensive ability. If you are going to use a stat to try to quantify a player's overall defensive impact over the course of a season, best IMHO is looking at defensive efficiency on/off stats. Ben is currently second on the team.

Shaka  was subbing Ben because Butler went small for the majority of the last ten minutes. You seem to have an idea that being good/bad at defense boils down to how does a player handle being isolated on the perimeter against a smaller and faster defender. Almost all centers are going to struggle in that situation, Ben does better than most.

I think the refs need an eyetest.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: jfp61 on December 20, 2024, 07:11:29 PM
Royce for either Ben or Joplin. Otherwise no one.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: The Sultan on December 20, 2024, 07:17:07 PM
Quote from: jfp61 on December 20, 2024, 07:11:29 PMRoyce for either Ben or Joplin. Otherwise no one.

Intentionally?
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: jfp61 on December 20, 2024, 07:17:44 PM
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 20, 2024, 07:17:07 PMIntentionally?
not yet maybe at the end of the year.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: The Sultan on December 20, 2024, 07:20:59 PM
Quote from: jfp61 on December 20, 2024, 07:17:44 PMnot yet maybe at the end of the year.

Yeah that's not happening.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: tower912 on December 20, 2024, 07:23:11 PM
Except, it is already settled.  The answer is Zaide.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: jfp61 on December 20, 2024, 09:35:44 PM
Quote from: tower912 on December 20, 2024, 07:23:11 PMExcept, it is already settled.  The answer is Zaide.
kinda, expect he gets pulled every offensive possession because he is just used as a foul shield
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: MuMark on December 20, 2024, 09:47:53 PM
Sean if he is healthy and effective.........he did it last year at times.

Ps I wonder how much longer without playing until Sean might just decides I'd rather have another full season? Assuming he wants to stay in school for a 5th year which isn't always a given.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: tower912 on December 21, 2024, 06:28:51 AM
That has always been the question.  And Shaka has been pretty clear it is about when Sean feels ready.
Title: Re: Which sub cracks the crunchtime rotation first?
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 21, 2024, 08:23:52 AM
Quote from: 1SE on December 20, 2024, 08:45:24 AMHe's a below average big, it's ok to admit that. His defense is worse than his offense, but neither is great.

It's fine, we're not going to have an All-American at every position. He's what we have, he does some things well, and it's also fine to admit that the C is the weakest spot on our team and that with a better C we would probably be a national title favorite.

It's also reasonable to think that our ceiling is higher with our Frosh taking big in-season leaps than it is with Ben playing at the level he's shown over the past 3 years.

A few comments on your views on Gold:

1) His defense is very improved, and will be better than Parham all year long - and I'm a big Royce fan.  Yet Royce isn't likely to perform any better than Ben offensively by the end of the year.

2) While Ben may not be able to defend a 6' midget guard with great quickness, 99% of of 6'11" guys cannot, maybe Oso was the 1% that could.

3) Ben's ability to shoot from 3, has made this team more efficient offensively than last year's team.  Kam's ability to get into the lane and be super efficient is only made possible by Ben being on the floor.  If Oso were our starting 5, Kam's efficiency likely isn't as good.

If someone said before the season that this year's team minus Tyler Kolek would be more efficient offensively, and our defense minus Oso to be as good as last year's team - I suspect most Scoopers would have said unlikely to impossible.

Ben is at least a solid "B" player, with potential to get to AB.  He's well above mediocre.
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