This is becoming one of the favorite topics here on Scoop. We have some folks saying Gold has never been a very good shooter, or that he only had one hot streak last season, or that Shaka shouldn't be giving Gold so much freedom to take open 3s. And, of course, we have one joyless mope who can't mention Ben without ripping him.
I thought these stats from last season pretty strongly support Shaka's faith in Gold's 3-point shooting:
First 13 games (11/6 - 12/22) - 16-for-42 (.381)
Next 5 games (12/28 - 1/20) - 0-for-12 (.000)
Next 10 games (1/24 - 2/28) - 13-for-35 (.371)
Next game (3/2 v Creighton) - 1-for-8 (.125)
Final 8 games (3/6 - 3/29) - 12-for-20 (.600).
So Gold actually had three lengthy good-shooting streaks last season. And aside from those 6 awful games in which he was 1-for-20, Gold was 41-for-97.
That's .423 over 31 games, a significant sample size.
Now, one could argue that Gold shouldn't be shooting an average of seven 3s a game, as that's about double last season's average. Or that Shaka shouldn't build his offense around Gold (and I don't believe Shaka has). But I think we'd all be quite happy about any player shooting .423 from 3 over 31 games this season.
It's up to Gold to hit the wide-open shots that the Shaka/Nevada offense creates for him. Joplin, too. If they don't, I agree with the more "concerned" Scoopers about our prospects for this season.
However, I like to think that, over the course of a long season, each will shoot about what he did in 2023-24 (around 36%). Marquette can win lots and lots of games if they do.
Joplin hitting 40%, as he did as a soph, would be even better ... but that's another thread!
Quote from: MU82 on November 13, 2024, 05:36:04 PMThis is becoming one of the favorite topics here on Scoop. We have some folks saying Gold has never been a very good shooter, or that he only had one hot streak last season, or that Shaka shouldn't be giving Gold so much freedom to take open 3s. And, of course, we have one joyless mope who can't mention Ben without ripping him.
I thought these stats from last season pretty strongly support Shaka's faith in Gold's 3-point shooting:
First 13 games (11/6 - 12/22) - 16-for-42 (.381)
Next 5 games (12/28 - 1/20) - 0-for-12 (.000)
Next 10 games (1/24 - 2/28) - 13-for-35 (.371)
Next game (3/2 v Creighton) - 1-for-8 (.125)
Final 8 games (3/6 - 3/29) - 12-for-20 (.600).
So Gold actually had three lengthy good-shooting streaks last season. And aside from those 6 awful games in which he was 1-for-20, Gold was 41-for-97.
That's .423 over 31 games, a significant sample size.
Now, one could argue that Gold shouldn't be shooting an average of seven 3s a game, as that's about double last season's average. Or that Shaka shouldn't build his offense around Gold (and I don't believe Shaka has). But I think we'd all be quite happy about any player shooting .423 from 3 over 31 games this season.
It's up to Gold to hit the wide-open shots that the Shaka/Nevada offense creates for him. Joplin, too. If they don't, I agree with the more "concerned" Scoopers about our prospects for this season.
However, I like to think that, over the course of a long season, each will shoot about what he did in 2023-24 (around 36%). Marquette can win lots and lots of games if they do.
Joplin hitting 40%, as he did as a soph, would be even better ... but that's another thread!
Going back, Dallas infamous game. I was right there when team cane back to hotel, brick's mom gave Shaka a bear hug and lifted him about 6" from floor (she is taller than brick)and she said "thank you for all you do for our children" I posted it last year when it happened. I say, culture / family. I know MU dentists will say woke and suxs
Dude, how many MU dentists do think regularly post on this board? I'll help ya out. There are 2. That's about the same number as in all of fookin' PR. The 2 here are gonna say it loud and proud and are not easily muzzled. Not in our DNA, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 13, 2024, 07:47:33 PMDude, how many MU dentists do think regularly post on this board? I'll help ya out. There are 2. That's about the same number as in all of fookin' PR. The 2 here are gonna say it loud and proud and are not easily muzzled. Not in our DNA, hey?
Dung post
How 'bout Ben Gold's shooting, though?
Quote from: MU82 on November 13, 2024, 08:07:26 PMHow 'bout Ben Gold's shooting, though?
It needs to be better
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 13, 2024, 07:47:33 PMDude, how many MU dentists do think regularly post on this board? I'll help ya out. There are 2. That's about the same number as in all of fookin' PR. The 2 here are gonna say it loud and proud and are not easily muzzled. Not in our DNA, hey?
How do we verify this?
So back to Ben. Do we need to head on down to Lake Michigan with a beach ball?
I feel like this is a bit of cherry-picking though. You could do the same thing with a lot of players..."just take out that 1 for 20 stretch and his numbers aren't bad".
Quote from: The Thing on November 13, 2024, 11:23:27 PMI feel like this is a bit of cherry-picking though. You could do the same thing with a lot of players..."just take out that 1 for 20 stretch and his numbers aren't bad".
I get it. But in another thread, we had a Scooper saying Gokd only had one good stretch (which is false). We had others suggesting that Gold was wildly inconsistent; the stats would suggest that wasn't really true last season - he had only one bad 5-game stretch but otherwise was pretty dependable.
Again, I don't think a 31-game sample size is bad cherry-picking.
What nobody is disputing is that Gold needs to shoot better than he has so far this season. We can't beat good teams if he and Jop are firing scuds.
Play with excluding this or that part of the sample, but fact remains dude is 32.4% career and 19% this year. Not terrible, but nowhere near what is needed to justify his other limitations. Plus, the line drive - not a shot built for 40%+.
But he's what we've got so I wish him all the best and hope he does shoot 36% this year - but he mostly is what he is - I'd be shocked if his game/shooting radically transforms at this point. I have no doubt he'll show up huge in a few games and knock down some major shots. But as a key and consistent part of the offense I don't see it. Thus, I think a better/more likely/more hopeful path to late season success is that we see the Freshman making big strides (which they may or may not do) and eat his minutes. My guess is our season will have been much more successful if the finally tally shows Ben at 15-20mpg rather than 20-25mpg.
Quote from: DoctorV on November 13, 2024, 11:10:37 PMHow do we verify this?
The board has several dentist wannabes. Unfortunately, they lack the necessary gray matter, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 14, 2024, 06:54:21 AMThe board has several dentist wannabes. Unfortunately, they lack the necessary gray matter, aina?
I dunno, I've read the posts by plenty of dentists. Can't be that hard.
Quote from: The Thing on November 13, 2024, 11:23:27 PMI feel like this is a bit of cherry-picking though. You could do the same thing with a lot of players..."just take out that 1 for 20 stretch and his numbers aren't bad".
True, but also a two way street. Just yesterday Pak said that if you take out his good stretch he's a bad shooter. You can cherrypick stats to say just about anything. He's inconsistent, this is really nothing new, he's in a slump right now despite getting good looks. We all hope that he breaks that slump shortly.
Quote from: 1SE on November 14, 2024, 03:41:18 AMPlay with excluding this or that part of the sample, but fact remains dude is 32.4% career and 19% this year. Not terrible, but nowhere near what is needed to justify his other limitations. Plus, the line drive - not a shot built for 40%+.
But he's what we've got so I wish him all the best and hope he does shoot 36% this year - but he mostly is what he is - I'd be shocked if his game/shooting radically transforms at this point. I have no doubt he'll show up huge in a few games and knock down some major shots. But as a key and consistent part of the offense I don't see it. Thus, I think a better/more likely/more hopeful path to late season success is that we see the Freshman making big strides (which they may or may not do) and eat his minutes. My guess is our season will have been much more successful if the finally tally shows Ben at 15-20mpg rather than 20-25mpg.
This is a very good post, nicely done.
Agree with most all of it.
Definitely not a shot built for 40%+, not only because of its line drive nature, but more-so because it seems to be wildly inconsistent.
Oftentimes I'll think "wow that shot looked pretty good," only to thing "what the heck was that" on the immediate next shot, and vice versa.
He will show up huge in some games and hit some big shots to get Marquette a win, hopefully tomorrow is one.
I'd also be ecstatic if he managed to shoot over 35% from 3, but he is what we've got, and what Shaka has put a lot of time and effort into, and we should all want to wish him the best.
The end of your post suggests that he get partially lapped, which definitely has a decent probability if he continues to shoot sub 30% from range and doesn't diversify his game. Arguing that it would be good for the team overall is the part I never thought of before, but I'm tracking.
We will see how it all shapes up, but best case scenario would be Benny getting more of those "where did that come from, we need more of that" slams at the hoop, and then hope some of the other parts of his game follow suit
Quote from: DoctorV on November 14, 2024, 07:25:15 AMDefinitely not a shot built for 40%+, not only because of its line drive nature, but more-so because it seems to be wildly inconsistent.
Oftentimes I'll think "wow that shot looked pretty good," only to thing "what the heck was that" on the immediate next shot, and vice versa.
Yep. Mechanics aren't good/consistent enough. His release point tends to drift left and those are the real ugly misses.
With the lack of arc... I know major adjustments aren't made during the season. But I have also shot with the rebounding machines they use, and you can't shoot a flat ball and make it over those nets. I wonder if this is like a golfer who stripes it at the range but struggles on the course.
Quote from: DoctorV on November 14, 2024, 07:25:15 AMThis is a very good post, nicely done.
Agree with most all of it.
Definitely not a shot built for 40%+, not only because of its line drive nature, but more-so because it seems to be wildly inconsistent.
Oftentimes I'll think "wow that shot looked pretty good," only to thing "what the heck was that" on the immediate next shot, and vice versa.
He will show up huge in some games and hit some big shots to get Marquette a win, hopefully tomorrow is one.
I'd also be ecstatic if he managed to shoot over 35% from 3, but he is what we've got, and what Shaka has put a lot of time and effort into, and we should all want to wish him the best.
The end of your post suggests that he get partially lapped, which definitely has a decent probability if he continues to shoot sub 30% from range and doesn't diversify his game. Arguing that it would be good for the team overall is the part I never thought of before, but I'm tracking.
We will see how it all shapes up, but best case scenario would be Benny getting more of those "where did that come from, we need more of that" slams at the hoop, and then hope some of the other parts of his game follow suit
He shot well over 35% for three long stretches last season, which helps explain Shaka's confidence in him.
And yes, MU could use one of those stretches starting tomorrow.
Quote from: MU82 on November 14, 2024, 10:04:21 AMHe shot well over 35% for three long stretches last season, which helps explain Shaka's confidence in him.
And yes, MU could use one of those stretches starting tomorrow.
I think we can have all sorts of fun with Ben's numbers to make a case for or against his shooting.
For example, he went on a blistering four-game stretch in early March last season, shooting 7-for-8 from three over that span.
In his other 72 games at Marquette, he's a pretty meh 54-for-180 (30%).
If you really want to cringe, consider this:
In 5 career starts, Ben's taken 34 three-point shots (6.8 per game) and made six of them, i.e. 17.6%.
For comparison's sake, Kam averaged 6.5 three attempts per game last year and Jop averaged 5.5.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 14, 2024, 10:31:09 AMI think we can have all sorts of fun with Ben's numbers to make a case for or against his shooting.
For example, he went on a blistering four-game stretch in early March last season, shooting 7-for-8 from three over that span.
In his other 72 games at Marquette, he's a pretty meh 54-for-180 (30%).
If you really want to cringe, consider this:
In 5 career starts, Ben's taken 34 three-point shots (6.8 per game) and made six of them, i.e. 17.6%.
For comparison's sake, Kam averaged 6.5 three attempts per game last year and Jop averaged 5.5.
His 3-point stats as a starter are unimpressive, and that's a charitable description. It is a small sample size ... and offers lots of room for improvement!
I ran some simulations to examine a few questions.
1) What type of season long shooting percentage might we expect from someone who we think has a "true" 3PFG% of, say, 36%.
2) What is the probability of a season containing a 3-game slump with 19% shooting for a shooter with a "true" 36% 3PFG%.
Assumptions:
30 game season
Exactly 7 shots per game (BG's average so far) - I didn't sample this but could
Question 1:
In 10000 simulations, the minimum season long 3PFG% is 23.8%, max is 50.4% (see attached histogram).
Question 2:
Over 10000 simulations, there are 7442 3-game slumps with <=19% 3PFG%. Since these are not independent, I also looked at how many seasons would contain a slump, and that number is 42.3%.
Of course if your input 3PFG% is lower, you will get more slumps and more seasons with slumps.
Hopefully this can help inform this conversation.
Quote from: THRILLHO on November 14, 2024, 01:00:22 PMI ran some simulations to examine a few questions.
1) What type of season long shooting percentage might we expect from someone who we think has a "true" 3PFG% of, say, 36%.
2) What is the probability of a season containing a 3-game slump with 19% shooting for a shooter with a "true" 36% 3PFG%.
Assumptions:
30 game season
Exactly 7 shots per game (BG's average so far) - I didn't sample this but could
Question 1:
In 10000 simulations, the minimum season long 3PFG% is 23.8%, max is 50.4% (see attached histogram).
Question 2:
Over 10000 simulations, there are 7442 3-game slumps with <=19% 3PFG%. Since these are not independent, I also looked at how many seasons would contain a slump, and that number is 42.3%.
Of course if your input 3PFG% is lower, you will get more slumps and more seasons with slumps.
Hopefully this can help inform this conversation.
Wow. This is actually really cool.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on November 14, 2024, 01:59:57 PMWow. This is actually really cool.
Thanks! Does it make you freak out more or less about BG's shooting?
Even being trained to work with probabilities I found it a little surprising. It's really common for even decent shooters (BG is actually closer to 34% for his career before this year) who shoot a lot to go on 3 game slumps like the one BG is in.
Maybe the strongest pushback would be, "But how often is it at the start of the year?" For the record, 2.6% of the simulated seasons start with a slump. But I'm not sure that it matters. If it's at the end of the year, we say he's choking under pressure, if it's at the beginning of the year we say he's actually a bad shooter (despite 2 years of evidence that he's fine), but these are all just stories we tell to explain data that can just as easily be explained as normal amounts of variability in probabilistic sequences.
Quote from: THRILLHO on November 14, 2024, 03:59:34 PMThanks! Does it make you freak out more or less about BG's shooting?
Even being trained to work with probabilities I found it a little surprising. It's really common for even decent shooters (BG is actually closer to 34% for his career before this year) who shoot a lot to go on 3 game slumps like the one BG is in.
Maybe the strongest pushback would be, "But how often is it at the start of the year?" For the record, 2.6% of the simulated seasons start with a slump. But I'm not sure that it matters. If it's at the end of the year, we say he's choking under pressure, if it's at the beginning of the year we say he's actually a bad shooter (despite 2 years of evidence that he's fine), but these are all just stories we tell to explain data that can just as easily be explained as normal amounts of variability in probabilistic sequences.
I'm not really freaked out because at best I suspected marginal improvement, and he's just starting off in a slump. To me, Joplin and Gold are basically the same player. Decent, but not great shooters with average atheticism.
IMO Joplin is a better shooter than Gold.
Gold does not have much arch on his shot also seems to be rushing.
Quote from: NCMUFan on November 14, 2024, 04:47:24 PMIMO Joplin is a better shooter than Gold.
Gold does not have much arch on his shot also seems to be rushing.
Last year Ben had a higher 3% than Joplin. I don't think they are far off from one another.
Quote from: NCMUFan on November 14, 2024, 04:47:24 PMIMO Joplin is a better shooter than Gold.
Gold does not have much arch on his shot also seems to be rushing.
I'd agree. You look back at his misses and makes and his makes almost always come when he's square to the hoop and set up to shoot. On his misses he's usually on his heels and fading a bit. Gotta correct those mechanics.
Jop I think is the better shooter or at least has higher potential with his shooting. Especially when contested.
Gold is more athletic and quicker.
But I do think they are similar players at this stage.
Joplin shot 40% from 3 over the course of an entire season and impressed Big East coaches enough to be selected as the best player off the bench player the whole conference.
Quote from: MU82 on November 14, 2024, 06:32:36 PMJoplin shot 40% from 3 over the course of an entire season and impressed Big East coaches enough to be selected as the best player off the bench player the whole conference.
And then his minutes increased over 40% the next year, and his percentage dropped off considerably.
Seriously, you are going back two years ago?
Thoughts and prayers.
Said this in some other threads; there are several guys on the MU Squad who have proven they can't consistently shoot 3s in games and shoot large volumes with few if any makes. We know from Coaching reports, that these folks are consistently making the shots in practice. I am ok with these unproven players trying to gain game confidence etc against cupcakes. However, against the quality opponents the unproven players green lights need to be severely restricted. The issue is many of these players are missing wide open uncontested 3s. There has been discussion in threads over the years that High Major D1 Players should be able to hit wide open, uncontested, 3s at the 40 percent rate.
I am fine with guys like Kam being volume 3 point shooters as he has proven consistency. He has also shown discipline this year knowing he will be closely guarded and has no TyKo feeding him.
The role model for the team should be TyKo. He didn't take that many threes, but he was consistently around 40 percent on the wide open, uncontested, shots and he didn't take many contested unless it was when the clock was running down.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on November 14, 2024, 06:43:04 PMAnd then his minutes increased over 40% the next year, and his percentage dropped off considerably.
Seriously, you are going back two years ago?
With increased usage, Joplin shot 36% from 3 last season and helped us win a lot of games. That also happens to be his career percentage. I'd take that this season.
Quote from: Herman Cain on November 14, 2024, 07:18:39 PMSaid this in some other threads; there are several guys on the MU Squad who have proven they can't consistently shoot 3s in games and shoot large volumes with few if any makes. We know from Coaching reports, that these folks are consistently making the shots in practice. I am ok with these unproven players trying to gain game confidence etc against cupcakes. However, against the quality opponents the unproven players green lights need to be severely restricted. The issue is many of these players are missing wide open uncontested 3s. There has been discussion in threads over the years that High Major D1 Players should be able to hit wide open, uncontested, 3s at the 40 percent rate.
I am fine with guys like Kam being volume 3 point shooters as he has proven consistency. He has also shown discipline this year knowing he will be closely guarded and has no TyKo feeding him.
The role model for the team should be TyKo. He didn't take that many threes, but he was consistently around 40 percent on the wide open, uncontested, shots and he didn't take many contested unless it was when the clock was running down.
I understand the sentiment and frustration but what I'd love to see in this argument is a definition of consistency that we could test with data. Something like variance in game wise shooting percentage?
Remember... this is a free site.
Horrendous views and commentary are allowed.
Quote from: THRILLHO on November 14, 2024, 01:00:22 PMI ran some simulations to examine a few questions.
1) What type of season long shooting percentage might we expect from someone who we think has a "true" 3PFG% of, say, 36%.
2) What is the probability of a season containing a 3-game slump with 19% shooting for a shooter with a "true" 36% 3PFG%.
Assumptions:
30 game season
Exactly 7 shots per game (BG's average so far) - I didn't sample this but could
Question 1:
In 10000 simulations, the minimum season long 3PFG% is 23.8%, max is 50.4% (see attached histogram).
Question 2:
Over 10000 simulations, there are 7442 3-game slumps with <=19% 3PFG%. Since these are not independent, I also looked at how many seasons would contain a slump, and that number is 42.3%.
Of course if your input 3PFG% is lower, you will get more slumps and more seasons with slumps.
Hopefully this can help inform this conversation.
This is one of the better posts on here.
Ben had a nice night but wanted to talk specifically about his defense. He's been good on that end. Not just in the post, but he holds his own on the perimeter and he's quick enough to hedge and recover. His conditioning has improved a ton too.
Quote from: BM1090 on November 19, 2024, 11:37:42 PMBen had a nice night but wanted to talk specifically about his defense. He's been good on that end. Not just in the post, but he holds his own in the post and he's quick enough to hedge and recover. His conditioning has improved a ton too.
100%
As I said in tower's postgame thread, Gold was outstanding in this game, and really has played quite well most of the season so far.
I would take a performance from Ben like the one vs Purdue every single game this season, and I would like our chances to win the vast majority of them.
Ben's defense locked in about a year ago. He understood the switches and rotations and his feet never stop moving. He is not the unicorn that Oso was. But he is an agile, mobile 7 footer who understands the defense and his role in it.
Quote from: tower912 on November 20, 2024, 05:24:33 AMBen's defense locked in about a year ago. He understood the switches and rotations and his feet never stop moving. He is not the unicorn that Oso was. But he is an agile, mobile 7 footer who understands the defense and his role in it.
He kept doubling on the perimeter and kept on recovering to deny many passes down below the basket or at paint area, and was 3-6 from 3
Quote from: MU82 on November 20, 2024, 01:34:38 AMAs I said in tower's postgame thread, Gold was outstanding in this game, and really has played quite well most of the season so far.
I would take a performance from Ben like the one vs Purdue every single game this season, and I would like our chances to win the vast majority of them.
I agree with this analysis. He played with great effort last night. Shaka recognized he was gassed at one point in the second half after a very active 4 minutes and got him a breather.
On another note - It seems people like to lump Jop and Gold's shooting together. Gold was 3-6 last night on 3's and people were bitching about his shooting. His shot looked better last night with more arc.
Another poster mentioned in a different thread, but it is worth considering: Is it possible we are a better team without TyKo and Oso? Gold's ability to shoot really stresses defenses in a way Oso did not. Also, Oso's game was all pick and roll to the basket, which clogged the lane/choking off driving lanes.
Kam is playing at a level as good, if not better than the best we saw from Tyler - so we are witnessing All-American level play from Kam, and possible CBB Player of Year.
Last thought, I have to think Joplin's shooting will come around, though some of his corner 3's have been alarmingly way off. If he rounds into form, and Ben continues to trend toward his 35% this team is extremely dangerous.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on November 20, 2024, 09:05:39 AMAnother poster mentioned in a different thread, but it is worth considering: Is it possible we are a better team without TyKo and Oso? Gold's ability to shoot really stresses defenses in a way Oso did not. Also, Oso's game was all pick and roll to the basket, which clogged the lane/choking off driving lanes.
Kam is playing at a level as good, if not better than the best we saw from Tyler - so we are witnessing All-American level play from Kam, and possible CBB Player of Year.
I think it is way too early to make these pronoucements...but it very well could be a better team when all is said and done.
Defensively this looks like a better team. The only real difference is a healthy, more experience Chase is a way better defender than Tyler was. (I think Ben and Oso are about a wash.)
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on November 20, 2024, 09:15:57 AMI think it is way too early to make these pronoucements...but it very well could be a better team when all is said and done.
Defensively this looks like a better team. The only real difference is a healthy, more experience Chase is a way better defender than Tyler was. (I think Ben and Oso are about a wash.)
It's kind of amazing to see and hard to explain but Chase Ross seems to have a center of gravity as a defender, kind of similar to how Kolek did on offense. Like I knew where he was at all times and was just waiting for him to make a play.
Quote from: THRILLHO on November 20, 2024, 09:25:14 AMIt's kind of amazing to see and hard to explain but Chase Ross seems to have a center of gravity as a defender, kind of similar to how Kolek did on offense. Like I knew where he was at all times and was just waiting for him to make a play.
Both are very instinctive players.
I don't know about better, but I'll say healthier. Feel like this is the Chase we could have seen last year if he wasn't banged up. Stevie too. Ben's no Oso, but Chase is better TKO defensively.
Gold's shots looked much better yesterday. Consistent arc. I will take shots by him when he has that consistent arc. It's when he shoots line drives that I cringe. I think it also helps him when he drives to the lane on occasion.
Jop just scares me when he has the ball in his hands.
If only Chase, Sean and Kolek were healthy all last year, that could have been special.
Gold is shooting 31% for the season on 6.5 attempts per game from deep despite starting the season 4/21.
On a board full of ridiculous and rapid overreactions, this one still stands out.
Quote from: Big Papi on November 20, 2024, 09:43:12 AMGold's shots looked much better yesterday. Consistent arc. I will take shots by him when he has that consistent arc. It's when he shoots line drives that I cringe. I think it also helps him when he drives to the lane on occasion.
Jop just scares me when he has the ball in his hands.
If only Chase, Sean and Kolek were healthy all last year, that could have been special.
Yeah, definitely a bit more air under it - if that stays Ben shooting 35% for the season seems much more plausible - here's to hoping!
Quote from: Its DJOver on November 20, 2024, 09:35:43 AMI don't know about better, but I'll say healthier. Feel like this is the Chase we could have seen last year if he wasn't banged up. Stevie too. Ben's no Oso, but Chase is better TKO defensively.
Agreed. While Ben is not Oso...the four other players on the court are benefiting from not having Oso's defender in the lane as Ben's 3 has been better as of late.
How Shaka uses the 5 in his action is really impressive to me. Hamilton is a little difficult given his offensive abilities at the moment, but for those of you that were at the scrimmage earlier in the year, we all saw how quickly/easily they could make an adjustment to set Clark up for repeated lobs. It's a pick your poison situation given their surrounding cast. Ben slips every screen right now. I'll be interested to see if they see any value in ever having him role to hoop similar to Oso. Seems like they are trying to get him to drive off the catch a bit instead. Fun to watch.
I think when the defensjve big starts recovering aggressively to contest Ben's 3s, there will be a pump fake and drive. It is the next step in progression for both Ben and the offense.
I'm betting this thread will have 20 pages by the end of the year. With each side saying told you so depending on which streak gold is on.
Quote from: #UnleashSean on November 25, 2024, 09:32:43 AMI'm betting this thread will have 20 pages by the end of the year. With each side saying told you so depending on which streak gold is on.
I'd argue, people focusing solely on Ben's 3-point shooting are missing a whole lot of his contribution to this team
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 25, 2024, 09:35:02 AMI'd argue, people focusing solely on Ben's 3-point shooting are missing a whole lot of his contribution to this team
Gold is one 12 rebound, 3 block, 1-8 3pt game away from this thread exploding.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 25, 2024, 09:35:02 AMI'd argue, people focusing solely on Ben's 3-point shooting are missing a whole lot of his contribution to this team
This.
Quote from: #UnleashSean on November 25, 2024, 09:36:44 AMGold is one 12 rebound, 3 block, 1-8 3pt game away from this thread exploding.
You're not wrong but that says more about his board than Gold
Quote from: BM1090 on November 25, 2024, 10:40:43 AMYou're not wrong but that says more about his board than Gold
Ohhh yes! You would think that on a bball fan board, you would not need to explain that. It's not rocket science.
Ben's shooting splits continue to be one of the most fascinating things to me about his career. Here are his year-by-year season percentages from deep:
- 2024-25: 30.8%
- 2023-24: 35.9%
- 2022-23: 30.0%
- Career: 33.5%
Looking at that, you think "decent but not great shooter." But what's amazing about Ben is he shoots much, much better against tougher competition. For difficult games, kenpom designates them as Tier A & B. Everyone else is an undesignated game. So at Maryland and Purdue were Tier A, Georgia was Tier B, everything else was undesignated. Here are Ben's splits by difficulty:
- 2024-25 Tier A&B: 44.4%
- 2024-25 undesignated: 19.0%
- 2023-24 Tier A&B: 41.4%
- 2023-24 undesignated: 27.7%
- 2022-23 Tier A&B: 36.4%
- 2022-23 Undesignated: 25.0%
- Career Tier A&B: 40.9%
- Career Undesignated: 23.1%
I won't pretend to understand this, but the tougher the opponent and the brighter the lights, the better Ben tends to be. So don't be surprised to see shooting regression this week only for him to take off starting in December.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 25, 2024, 10:46:10 AMBen's shooting splits continue to be one of the most fascinating things to me about his career. Here are his year-by-year season percentages from deep:
- 2024-25: 30.8%
- 2023-24: 35.9%
- 2022-23: 30.0%
- Career: 33.5%
Looking at that, you think "decent but not great shooter." But what's amazing about Ben is he shoots much, much better against tougher competition. For difficult games, kenpom designates them as Tier A & B. Everyone else is an undesignated game. So at Maryland and Purdue were Tier A, Georgia was Tier B, everything else was undesignated. Here are Ben's splits by difficulty:
- 2024-25 Tier A&B: 44.4%
- 2024-25 undesignated: 19.0%
- 2023-24 Tier A&B: 41.4%
- 2023-24 undesignated: 27.7%
- 2022-23 Tier A&B: 36.4%
- 2022-23 Undesignated: 25.0%
- Career Tier A&B: 40.9%
- Career Undesignated: 23.1%
I won't pretend to understand this, but the tougher the opponent and the brighter the lights, the better Ben tends to be. So don't be surprised to see shooting regression this week only for him to take off starting in December.
That's absolutely crazy, but I will take that all day long vs. hitting threes against cupcakes.
Quote from: BM1090 on November 25, 2024, 10:40:43 AMYou're not wrong but that says more about his board than Gold
I was making a joke directed at the board. Not gold.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 25, 2024, 09:35:02 AMI'd argue, people focusing solely on Ben's 3-point shooting are missing a whole lot of his contribution to this team
Knows ball.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 25, 2024, 12:00:07 PMKnows ball.
100%
Ben's defensive contributions have been so impressive. I never expected him to be this effective replacing Oso on the defensive end. (Not saying he's Oso, but he's way, way better than I expected)
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 25, 2024, 12:04:02 PM100%
Ben's defensive contributions have been so impressive. I never expected him to be this effective replacing Oso on the defensive end. (Not saying he's Oso, but he's way, way better than I expected)
Agreed, and as Tower has pointed out, the scheme has changed to help Ben and the other bigs out. While we used to just let Oso shut off the point of attack on a full on switch to the guard, we are now hard hedging and recovering with our big. Both are effective for the personnel that was deploying the scheme.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 25, 2024, 10:46:10 AMBen's shooting splits continue to be one of the most fascinating things to me about his career. Here are his year-by-year season percentages from deep:
- 2024-25: 30.8%
- 2023-24: 35.9%
- 2022-23: 30.0%
- Career: 33.5%
Looking at that, you think "decent but not great shooter." But what's amazing about Ben is he shoots much, much better against tougher competition. For difficult games, kenpom designates them as Tier A & B. Everyone else is an undesignated game. So at Maryland and Purdue were Tier A, Georgia was Tier B, everything else was undesignated. Here are Ben's splits by difficulty:
- 2024-25 Tier A&B: 44.4%
- 2024-25 undesignated: 19.0%
- 2023-24 Tier A&B: 41.4%
- 2023-24 undesignated: 27.7%
- 2022-23 Tier A&B: 36.4%
- 2022-23 Undesignated: 25.0%
- Career Tier A&B: 40.9%
- Career Undesignated: 23.1%
I won't pretend to understand this, but the tougher the opponent and the brighter the lights, the better Ben tends to be. So don't be surprised to see shooting regression this week only for him to take off starting in December.
Since we can usually win the easier games in spite of his shooting woes I'd be ok with this trend continuing.....lol
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 25, 2024, 10:46:10 AMBen's shooting splits continue to be one of the most fascinating things to me about his career. Here are his year-by-year season percentages from deep:
- 2024-25: 30.8%
- 2023-24: 35.9%
- 2022-23: 30.0%
- Career: 33.5%
Looking at that, you think "decent but not great shooter." But what's amazing about Ben is he shoots much, much better against tougher competition. For difficult games, kenpom designates them as Tier A & B. Everyone else is an undesignated game. So at Maryland and Purdue were Tier A, Georgia was Tier B, everything else was undesignated. Here are Ben's splits by difficulty:
- 2024-25 Tier A&B: 44.4%
- 2024-25 undesignated: 19.0%
- 2023-24 Tier A&B: 41.4%
- 2023-24 undesignated: 27.7%
- 2022-23 Tier A&B: 36.4%
- 2022-23 Undesignated: 25.0%
- Career Tier A&B: 40.9%
- Career Undesignated: 23.1%
I won't pretend to understand this, but the tougher the opponent and the brighter the lights, the better Ben tends to be. So don't be surprised to see shooting regression this week only for him to take off starting in December.
Great stuff Brew.
Is Joplin an inverse of this?
I know that it takes a lot of work, but I'd love the data on Jop.
Seems like he loves the Davids, but shrinks a bit versus the Goliaths, and I wonder if the data backs that up?
Quote from: DoctorV on November 25, 2024, 12:50:01 PMGreat stuff Brew.
Is Joplin an inverse of this?
I know that it takes a lot of work, but I'd love the data on Jop.
Seems like he loves the Davids, but shrinks a bit versus the Goliaths, and I wonder if the data backs that up?
Joplin isn't as straight a shot in that regard, though last year that would be an understandable conclusion. I'd love to see a split in his large gym vs small gym numbers, as so many of his outbursts (Georgia, DePaul, GMU at the Al) seem to come in smaller venues. Here are his splits:
- 2024-25 Total: 28.0%
- 2024-25 Tier A&B: 33.3%
- 2024-25 undesignated: 23.1%
- 2023-24 Total: 35.5%
- 2023-24 Tier A&B: 29.7%
- 2023-24 undesignated: 45.3%
- 2022-23 Total: 39.9%
- 2022-23 Tier A&B: 41.7%
- 2022-23 undesignated: 36.9%
- 2021-22 Total: 28.8%
- 2021-22 Tier A&B: 28.6%
- 2021-22 undesignated: 29.2%
- Career Total: 35.4%
- Career Tier A&B: 34.1%
- Career undesignated: 37.4%
Quote from: wadesworld on November 25, 2024, 12:08:11 PMAgreed, and as Tower has pointed out, the scheme has changed to help Ben and the other bigs out. While we used to just let Oso shut off the point of attack on a full on switch to the guard, we are now hard hedging and recovering with our big. Both are effective for the personnel that was deploying the scheme.
We also get better pressure up top because Ross is so much better at staying in front of and/or denying his man than TK was. Gold is doing a great job, for sure, but it's a little easier to play post defense when perimeter players are being smothered by the likes of Ross and Stevie.
As for shooting ... if Gold and Joplin shoot even 35% in games (so like a combined 5-for-14), we will be tough to beat. If they shoot close to like they did against Georgia, we are a Final Four team.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 25, 2024, 12:04:02 PM100%
Ben's defensive contributions have been so impressive. I never expected him to be this effective replacing Oso on the defensive end. (Not saying he's Oso, but he's way, way better than I expected)
I think that is a result of the coach. No one expected either Ben or Jop would be as good defensively as they are.
Ans, of course, the hard work put in by the players.
Board don't know
Quote from: #UnleashSean on November 25, 2024, 11:09:48 AMI was making a joke directed at the board. Not gold.
I know
Quote from: Jockey on November 25, 2024, 02:17:21 PMI think that is a result of the coach. No one expected either Ben or Jop would be as good defensively as they are.
Ans, of course, the hard work put in by the players.
No doubt. So impressive how well this staff has done identifying and recruiting players that develop in the system.
Quote from: MU82 on November 13, 2024, 05:36:04 PMThis is becoming one of the favorite topics here on Scoop. We have some folks saying Gold has never been a very good shooter, or that he only had one hot streak last season, or that Shaka shouldn't be giving Gold so much freedom to take open 3s. And, of course, we have one joyless mope who can't mention Ben without ripping him.
I thought these stats from last season pretty strongly support Shaka's faith in Gold's 3-point shooting:
First 13 games (11/6 - 12/22) - 16-for-42 (.381)
Next 5 games (12/28 - 1/20) - 0-for-12 (.000)
Next 10 games (1/24 - 2/28) - 13-for-35 (.371)
Next game (3/2 v Creighton) - 1-for-8 (.125)
Final 8 games (3/6 - 3/29) - 12-for-20 (.600).
So Gold actually had three lengthy good-shooting streaks last season. And aside from those 6 awful games in which he was 1-for-20, Gold was 41-for-97.
That's .423 over 31 games, a significant sample size.
Now, one could argue that Gold shouldn't be shooting an average of seven 3s a game, as that's about double last season's average. Or that Shaka shouldn't build his offense around Gold (and I don't believe Shaka has). But I think we'd all be quite happy about any player shooting .423 from 3 over 31 games this season.
It's up to Gold to hit the wide-open shots that the Shaka/Nevada offense creates for him. Joplin, too. If they don't, I agree with the more "concerned" Scoopers about our prospects for this season.
However, I like to think that, over the course of a long season, each will shoot about what he did in 2023-24 (around 36%). Marquette can win lots and lots of games if they do.
Joplin hitting 40%, as he did as a soph, would be even better ... but that's another thread!
Quote from: BM1090 on November 14, 2024, 05:04:24 PMI'd agree. You look back at his misses and makes and his makes almost always come when he's square to the hoop and set up to shoot. On his misses he's usually on his heels and fading a bit. Gotta correct those mechanics.
Jop I think is the better shooter or at least has higher potential with his shooting. Especially when contested.
Gold is more athletic and quicker.
But I do think they are similar players at this stage.
Jop can really make that fadeaway and shoot from deeper but golds shooting form needs to be fixed, although it did look better against UGA.
After all the consternation about his poor shooting in the first three games, Gold is 9-for-20 (.450) from 3 over the last four games. Plus outstanding defense.
We could use a little more rebounding from him, but I'd take Ben over the vast majority of D-1 centers.
Quote from: MU82 on November 28, 2024, 01:39:42 PMAfter all the consternation about his poor shooting in the first three games, Gold is 9-for-20 (.450) from 3 over the last four games. Plus outstanding defense.
We could use a little more rebounding from him, but I'd take Ben over the vast majority of D-1 centers.
His form (arc) has improved considerably.
:P