CBS Sports columnists continue to praise Shaka for eschewing the transfer portal and making an investment in his own players. The same cannot be said for Dabo Swinney at Clemson. It is - of course - a different sport with much larger rosters to fill, but I still find it an interesting parallel.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/clemsons-lopsided-loss-to-georgia-provides-latest-indictment-on-dabo-swinney-shunning-transfer-portal-era/
It's not that hard to figure out. If Dabo's way was successful, they'd be praising it. If Shaka's way wasn't, they'd be criticizing it.
Fielding a starting 5 and bench of 10 seemingly is easier than 22 starters and 22 for 2 deep and specialists. And way cheaper NIL money needed.
If MU has a .500 season, the knives will come out for Shaka.
Quote from: tower912 on September 01, 2024, 07:15:14 AM
If MU has a .500 season, the knives will come out for Shaka.
On Scoop, anything less than making it to the FF and there will be coaches saying he should have improved the team via the portal.
So, not really different than Clemson.
the NIL is going to get worse before it gets better...it's kind of a "lawless" way to do what they were all doing before, except on a different scale.
the rules are made to be broken, except in a "legal" way now. he who knows how to traverse the NIL "minefield" wins
can anyone tell me what the limits are? in other words, a salary cap, oops, i mean NIL cap hasn't really been established so let the feast begin, i mean continue...until someone calls foul. send lawyers (lots of them) guns (ohhhh guns bad) and MONEY
The rules are that players can make unlimited amount of NIL money - just like players in the NFL, NBA, etc.
There is no "salary cap" because college players are not (yet) considered employees, cannot (yet) form a union, and can't (yet) come to a collective bargaining agreement where they agree to limit their compensation.
Outside of federal action, which IMO would be awful, any sort of cap on outside income would be illegal.
Also, I don't know what you mean by "get worse before it gets better." Why does there have to be a value judgement here? It's just another way that the college sports landscape has changed.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on September 01, 2024, 07:46:27 AM
the NIL is going to get worse before it gets better...it's kind of a "lawless" way to do what they were all doing before, except on a different scale.
the rules are made to be broken, except in a "legal" way now. he who knows how to traverse the NIL "minefield" wins
can anyone tell me what the limits are? in other words, a salary cap, oops, i mean NIL cap hasn't really been established so let the feast begin, i mean continue...until someone calls foul. send lawyers (lots of them) guns (ohhhh guns bad) and MONEY
Please leave this topic to people that know what they speak of.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 01, 2024, 07:51:43 AM
The rules are that players can make unlimited amount of NIL money - just like players in the NFL, NBA, etc.
There is no "salary cap" because college players are not (yet) considered employees, cannot (yet) form a union, and can't (yet) come to a collective bargaining agreement where they agree to limit their compensation.
Outside of federal action, which IMO would be awful, any sort of cap on outside income would be illegal.
Also, I don't know what you mean by "get worse before it gets better." Why does there have to be a value judgement here? It's just another way that the college sports landscape has changed.
what's keeping a team from allotting $30 million, $40 million...$100 million? when is someone going to cry foul? when people are sick and tired of seeing alabamas, georgias, ohio states, michigans every year? time for a little more "landscaping" eyn'a?
by worse, i mean more confusing. usually there are boundaries, laws, rules etc. when these cease to be or they become more and more gray, we will have "confusion" it seems the goal lines or the heights of the rims are being changed, but no one knows what they will be game to game, season to season
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 01, 2024, 08:07:52 AM
Please leave this topic to people that know what they speak of.
why? enlighten me then. i have the same questions about this as many out there. why can't i question this? i liked college athletics as it was before. just like many of you out here-just shut up and accept it? we are the "all knowing" and know what's best for all of you dummies out there?
sounds pretty arrogant reeeko...no surprise
Quote from: rocket surgeon on September 01, 2024, 08:10:13 AM
what's keeping a team from allotting $30 million, $40 million...$100 million? when is someone going to cry foul? when people are sick and tired of seeing alabamas, georgias, ohio states, michigans every year? time for a little more "landscaping" eyn'a?
by worse, i mean more confusing. usually there are boundaries, laws, rules etc. when these cease to be or they become more and more gray, we will have "confusion" it seems the goal lines or the heights of the rims are being changed, but no one knows what they will be game to game, season to season
Has there ever been an era where college athletics, and especially college football, hasn't been top heavy and dominated by a handful of programs? Yet the marketplace doesn't seem to care. Ratings are huge.
And what exactly is confusing about it? Players can make what the marketplace dictates, and they pay taxes on that income. There is no grey - it's actually much more clear than the days of boosters dropping a bag.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 01, 2024, 08:15:48 AM
Has there ever been an era where college athletics, and especially college football, hasn't been top heavy and dominated by a handful of programs? Yet the marketplace doesn't seem to care. Ratings are huge.
And what exactly is confusing about it? Players can make what the marketplace dictates, and they pay taxes on that income. There is no grey - it's actually much more clear than the days of boosters dropping a bag.
Some people hate market economics
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 01, 2024, 08:15:48 AM
Has there ever been an era where college athletics, and especially college football, hasn't been top heavy and dominated by a handful of programs? Yet the marketplace doesn't seem to care. Ratings are huge.
And what exactly is confusing about it? Players can make what the marketplace dictates, and they pay taxes on that income. There is no grey - it's actually much more clear than the days of boosters dropping a bag.
i agree it is more clear than boosters dropping bags, but what are the limits? even pro sports have limits.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 01, 2024, 08:18:07 AM
Some people hate market economics
this is a little bit more than market economics
Quote from: rocket surgeon on September 01, 2024, 08:19:03 AM
i agree it is more clear than boosters dropping bags, but what are the limits? even pro sports have limits.
Please enlighten us on what caps pro sports have on what their athletes can make in NIL.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on September 01, 2024, 08:19:03 AM
i agree it is more clear than boosters dropping bags, but what are the limits? even pro sports have limits.
Did you read what I wrote above?
There are no NIL limits. And there are no NIL limits in "pro sports" either.
There are salary caps in pro sports because they are unionized employees who agree to limit their compensation with a salary cap. Since student athletes aren't employees, they don't (yet) receive income directly from the schools outside of a non-taxable, cost of attendance scholarship.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 01, 2024, 08:24:12 AM
Did you read what I wrote above?
There are no NIL limits. And there are no NIL limits in "pro sports" either.
There are salary caps in pro sports because they are unionized employees who agree to limit their compensation with a salary cap. Since student athletes aren't employees, they don't (yet) receive income directly from the schools outside of a non-taxable, cost of attendance scholarship.
yes, i read what you wrote. i still struggle with the concept in college sports. you know it's going to become a chit show sooner or later. if you cannot see that, then i also struggle with your decision making process. making decisions without looking at potential problems down the road. it seems this NIL thing hasn't been thought out very thoroughly except for the fact that we cannot prevent someone from making as much money as someone else is willing to pay them
Quote from: rocket surgeon on September 01, 2024, 08:31:01 AM
yes, i read what you wrote. i still struggle with the concept in college sports. you know it's going to become a chit show sooner or later. if you cannot see that, then i also struggle with your decision making process. making decisions without looking at potential problems down the road. it seems this NIL thing hasn't been thought out very thoroughly except for the fact that we cannot prevent someone from making as much money as someone else is willing to pay them
This is only a problem if you cling to the old way of thinking about college athletics. That era is dead, gone and buried.
And this era is upon us because those running college athletics did not adapt to new ways of thinking. The writing was on the wall when the O'Bannon case was lost, but instead of reforming, they did a combination of burying their heads in the sand and issuing laughable threats. Remember the "we will not invite schools from states that allow NIL to NCAA championships?" Chicos was all over that when California adopted its NIL law - as if it was EVER in the NCAA's best interest to disallow schools from the largest state in the country to participate in NCAA tournaments.
And none of this is a sh*t show. It's just the new way athletics is managed. My advice is just watch the games and enjoy them.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on September 01, 2024, 08:31:01 AM
except for the fact that we cannot prevent someone from making as much money as someone else is willing to pay them
This is literally what you stand for in life. I don't love NIL...but you don't get to complain about it.
Quote from: avid1010 on September 01, 2024, 08:46:10 AM
This is literally what you stand for in life.
Quite the juxtaposition
I will also point out that it's the schools that don't want to make student athletes employees due to the expense for items like worker's comp insurance. So they are the ones preventing any sort of salary cap.
Of course they want federal legislation instead, but that's going nowhere - thankfully.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on September 01, 2024, 08:19:03 AM
i agree it is more clear than boosters dropping bags, but what are the limits? even pro sports have limits.
I think the confusion stems from a clear lack of ROI on a company's investment with these athletes. So it's not really NIL. Its fantasy football for the rich.
Cooper Flagg is how NIL was supposed to work. Real stars able to make money off their NIL. He will and probably already does sell new balance shoes because of his affiliation. It was a shame that Zion could not do the same thing. That was the injustice that was solved. J. Lewis getting a couple free burgers was made legal but he didn't help sell more burgers. That restaurant probably could have saved a couple thousand dollars though and just given him a couple free burgers.
This is the "if we don't pay them, they won't come to our school and our team won't be good fund". IWDPTtWCTOSAOTWBG fund. This fund has zero to do with NIL and more to do with paying players a salary for their skill to stay competitive. The only direct ROI beneficiaries are the schools themselves (marketing for more enrollment at full price) in the vast majority of cases.
So in many ways this is a farce and not really as intended. It's only a fan base paying players as fantasy football GMs for their work/skill on the field or court.
No need to call it NIL anymore. That is disingenuous. It's the IWDPTtWCTOSAOTWBG fund. And that's ok.
Quote from: PointWarrior on September 01, 2024, 12:39:36 AM
Fielding a starting 5 and bench of 10 seemingly is easier than 22 starters and 22 for 2 deep and specialists. And way cheaper NIL money needed.
This. 13 scholarships compared to 85 as well. And in hoops one or two great players affect the success of a team far more than in football.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 01, 2024, 09:30:32 AM
I think the confusion stems from a clear lack of ROI on a company's investment with these athletes. So it's not really NIL. Its fantasy football for the rich.
Cooper Flagg is how NIL was supposed to work. Real stars able to make money off their NIL. He will and probably already does sell new balance shoes because of his affiliation. It was a shame that Zion could not do the same thing. That was the injustice that was solved. J. Lewis getting a couple free burgers was made legal but he didn't help sell more burgers. That restaurant probably could have saved a couple thousand dollars though and just given him a couple free burgers.
This is the "if we don't pay them, they won't come to our school and our team won't be good fund". IWDPTtWCTOSAOTWBG fund. This fund has zero to do with NIL and more to do with paying players a salary for their skill to stay competitive. The only direct ROI beneficiaries are the schools themselves (marketing for more enrollment at full price) in the vast majority of cases.
So in many ways this is a farce and not really as intended. It's only a fan base paying players as fantasy football GMs for their work/skill on the field or court.
No need to call it NIL anymore. That is disingenuous. It's the IWDPTtWCTOSAOTWBG fund. And that's ok.
Yeah I don't disagree with much here. Only with how NIL was "supposed" to work. It was always going to end up working getting money to the players to play at a certain school.
Also in many ways, NIL collectives are cleaner in that they provide organizational consistency. And likely are a one stop shop for tax notifications, etc. Sure it would be better if it were just the schools but this works.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 01, 2024, 09:30:32 AM
I think the confusion stems from a clear lack of ROI on a company's investment with these athletes. So it's not really NIL. Its fantasy football for the rich.
Cooper Flagg is how NIL was supposed to work. Real stars able to make money off their NIL. He will and probably already does sell new balance shoes because of his affiliation. It was a shame that Zion could not do the same thing. That was the injustice that was solved. J. Lewis getting a couple free burgers was made legal but he didn't help sell more burgers. That restaurant probably could have saved a couple thousand dollars though and just given him a couple free burgers.
This is the "if we don't pay them, they won't come to our school and our team won't be good fund". IWDPTtWCTOSAOTWBG fund. This fund has zero to do with NIL and more to do with paying players a salary for their skill to stay competitive. The only direct ROI beneficiaries are the schools themselves (marketing for more enrollment at full price) in the vast majority of cases.
So in many ways this is a farce and not really as intended. It's only a fan base paying players as fantasy football GMs for their work/skill on the field or court.
No need to call it NIL anymore. That is disingenuous. It's the IWDPTtWCTOSAOTWBG fund. And that's ok.
This is how the free market works. I'll buy insurance whether or not my insurance company spends ridiculous amounts of money on corporate outings and other frivolous things...but they will tell you that they can't attract and retain top talent without doing so.
No doubt. They are just not being paid for NIL in the vast majority of cases. No one gives a crap about their name or image or likeness. They are paying them for their skill on the field or court without any benefit besides wins and losses on the field or court. Just call it like it is.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on September 01, 2024, 08:14:09 AM
why? enlighten me then. i have the same questions about this as many out there. why can't i question this? i liked college athletics as it was before. just like many of you out here-just shut up and accept it? we are the "all knowing" and know what's best for all of you dummies out there?
sounds pretty arrogant reeeko...no surprise
Why would you expect anything else from that guy? The one who smugly thinks he is smarter than all others but in reality is far from it. NIL is like the wild west. Why did Wright get out? He saw this coming. Why the hell did Saban get out? He has already said Why.
Loyalty from players is diminishing and the first thing he heard from recruits is: "How much am I getting?" Have to respect what guys like Shaka and Dabo are trying to do, but Dabo is already getting crucified by the talking heads and by other teams like Georgia. Sort of like pissing in the wind for guys like that. It is especially prevalent in college football. The rich seem to be getting richer so where does it end? Probably takes most of the fun out of college athletics for football and basketball.
Quote from: willie warrior on September 01, 2024, 11:44:09 AM
Why would you expect anything else from that guy? The one who smugly thinks he is smarter than all others but in reality is far from it. NIL is like the wild west. Why did Wright get out? He saw this coming. Why the hell did Saban get out? He has already said Why.
Loyalty from players is diminishing and the first thing he heard from recruits is: "How much am I getting?" Have to respect what guys like Shaka and Dabo are trying to do, but Dabo is already getting crucified by the talking heads and by other teams like Georgia. Sort of like pissing in the wind for guys like that. It is especially prevalent in college football. The rich seem to be getting richer so where does it end? Probably takes most of the fun out of college athletics for football and basketball.
Yes. Never has college sports, especially football, been dominated by a small number of wealthy programs. 🙄🙄🙄
Man, a lot of supposed college sports fans have a complete lack of knowledge about the history of college sports.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on September 01, 2024, 08:10:13 AM
what's keeping a team from allotting $30 million, $40 million...$100 million? when is someone going to cry foul? when people are sick and tired of seeing alabamas, georgias, ohio states, michigans every year? time for a little more "landscaping" eyn'a?
by worse, i mean more confusing. usually there are boundaries, laws, rules etc. when these cease to be or they become more and more gray, we will have "confusion" it seems the goal lines or the heights of the rims are being changed, but no one knows what they will be game to game, season to season
If only the NCAA could have had any way to see this coming and installed some guardrails.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 01, 2024, 08:23:30 AM
Please enlighten us on what caps pro sports have on what their athletes can make in NIL.
...isn't college sports now pro? Amateur status long gone.
Quote from: Viper on September 01, 2024, 12:59:57 PM
...isn't college sports now pro? Amateur status long gone.
Hallelujah!
I am betting Dabo is glad he decided to not take calls during the post-game show. Heh.
NIL will sort itself out, like most things do. Right now, it is new and chaotic. There have already been discussions and speculation that some of the Big money will fry up due to lack of ROI and lack of clear causality.
Eventually, a clear set of rules will be formulated. There will be the wailing, gnashing of teeth, rending of garments, whataboutism that comes with every change and every non-change.
Then everybody will get to work figuring out how to cheat this new set of rules. And the haves will remain ahead of the have nots.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on September 01, 2024, 08:31:01 AM
yes, i read what you wrote. i still struggle with the concept in college sports. you know it's going to become a chit show sooner or later. if you cannot see that, then i also struggle with your decision making process. making decisions without looking at potential problems down the road. it seems this NIL thing hasn't been thought out very thoroughly except for the fact that we cannot prevent someone from making as much money as someone else is willing to pay them
You want to artifically limit how much someone can make in the free maket? Better get that Commie crap out of my Murica comrade Rocket surgeon
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 01, 2024, 03:36:54 PM
You want to artifically limit how much someone can make in the free maket? Better get that Commie crap out of my Murica comrade Rocket surgeon
no i don't but i think you know what i mean...i think
scooter explains it very well-oh yeah, let's call it NIL, wink wink boy are they going to give their product a boo$t. if you were to weigh in on the "investment" part, i'm pretty sure the stock holders would wonder
Quote from: Viper on September 01, 2024, 01:06:57 PM
...weirdo
The weirdos are the ones that miss amateurism
Quote from: willie warrior on September 01, 2024, 11:44:09 AM
Why would you expect anything else from that guy? The one who smugly thinks he is smarter than all others but in reality is far from it. NIL is like the wild west. Why did Wright get out? He saw this coming. Why the hell did Saban get out? He has already said Why.
Loyalty from players is diminishing and the first thing he heard from recruits is: "How much am I getting?" Have to respect what guys like Shaka and Dabo are trying to do, but Dabo is already getting crucified by the talking heads and by other teams like Georgia. Sort of like pissing in the wind for guys like that. It is especially prevalent in college football. The rich seem to be getting richer so where does it end? Probably takes most of the fun out of college athletics for football and basketball.
Derp
Quote from: rocket surgeon on September 01, 2024, 03:46:30 PM
no i don't but i think you know what i mean...i think
scooter explains it very well-oh yeah, let's call it NIL, wink wink boy are they going to give their product a boo$t. if you were to weigh in on the "investment" part, i'm pretty sure the stock holders would wonder
So if everything was exactly the same but they called it BPA (boosters paying athletes) instead of NIL, you would have no issues with it?
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 01, 2024, 03:36:54 PM
You want to artifically limit how much someone can make in the free maket? Better get that Commie crap out of my Murica comrade Rocket surgeon
What are your thoughts on salary caps in pro sports? Should the NCAA enact salary caps? Is parity good or bad in professional/college sports?
In my opinion parity is good, and is what generates the most interest in sports and subsequent revenue for the players. If there were no salary caps professional football wouldn't have nearly the interest - Green Bay wouldn't stand a chance. Major league baseball had to modify its structure to give small market teams like Milwaukee some fighting chance at success.
If you have a system that will bear out a handful of teams that are always good because they can pay the most and buy a roster, it diminishes broad interest. Sports are physical competitions that involve on court/field strategy, yet you can have the best strategy and coaching, but if your talent (athleticism/skill) isn't good - you can't thrive.
I get it, EM. It took quite a while and multiple strike/work stoppages to get the bastardized salary caps systems that now exist. To think that an efficient, practical, fair, equitable system is going to spring up overnight in college athletics is, IMO, a trifle optimistic.
Quote from: tower912 on September 01, 2024, 04:31:33 PM
I get it, EM. It took quite a while and multiple strike/work stoppages to get the bastardized salary caps systems that now exist. To think that an efficient, practical, fair, equitable system is going to spring up overnight in college athletics is, IMO, a trifle optimistic.
As long as the players have no rights and play for the name on the front of the jersey, it'll be fine
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 01, 2024, 03:36:54 PM
You want to artifically limit how much someone can make in the free maket? Better get that Commie crap out of my Murica comrade Rocket surgeon
So you don't object to the players forming unions, negotiating minimums and many other benefits but a maximum (cap) for the guys writing the checks is Commie crap. Interesting.
That ship has sailed. Acknowledging that, propose the kind of system you want. I don't need minutiae, but give the broad themes.
Who pays? Boosters? Taxpayers?
Salary cap?
Enployee of the university?
Transfer rules and what happens to the previously committed money?
Guaranteed money? Injuries? Poor grades?
If the kid turns into a superstar, and the university sells 10,000 Miletic jerseys, what is his cut? If they continue to sell after he goes pro, what is his cut?
Stuff like that. Design/propose your ideal system that has the kids making some $. I go back to the legend of Jim Chones. If there had been NIL money, would his refrigerator have been empty?
Quote from: tower912 on September 01, 2024, 04:44:59 PM
That ship has sailed. Acknowledging that, propose the kind of system you want. I don't need minutiae, but give the broad themes.
Who pays? Boosters? Taxpayers?
Salary cap?
Enployee of the university?
Transfer rules and what happens to the previously committed money?
Guaranteed money? Injuries? Poor grades?
If the kid turns into a superstar, and the university sells 10,000 Miletic jerseys, what is his cut? If they continue to sell after he goes pro, what is his cut?
Stuff like that. Design/propose your ideal system that has the kids making some $. I go back to the legend of Jim Chones. If there had been NIL money, would his refrigerator have been empty?
The problem isn't the boosters or the players. The problem is the universities and NCAA that buried their heads in the sand for the last 25 years and had no plan in place.
They got their fat TV checks and want the government to fix their malfeasance and neglect. That's where the problem is. The people in charge are the problem, not NIL
I would argue if I could. You forgot to add while they had their head in the sand, they were simultaneously destroying rivalries, conferences, traditions, all in an arms race to make the most money.
Quote from: willie warrior on September 01, 2024, 11:44:09 AM
Why would you expect anything else from that guy? The one who smugly thinks he is smarter than all others but in reality is far from it. NIL is like the wild west. Why did Wright get out? He saw this coming. Why the hell did Saban get out? He has already said Why.
Loyalty from players is diminishing and the first thing he heard from recruits is: "How much am I getting?" Have to respect what guys like Shaka and Dabo are trying to do, but Dabo is already getting crucified by the talking heads and by other teams like Georgia. Sort of like pissing in the wind for guys like that. It is especially prevalent in college football. The rich seem to be getting richer so where does it end? Probably takes most of the fun out of college athletics for football and basketball.
See Rocket...Willie agrees with you. You have to admit that's not a good sign.
The WIAA proposed NIL rules for high school athletes that were highly restrictive. My favorite rule being that you could not donate to athletes and a school. I bet colleges would get on board with that ;D
Quote from: tower912 on September 01, 2024, 04:54:42 PM
I would argue if I could. You forgot to add while they had their head in the sand, they were simultaneously destroying rivalries, conferences, traditions, all in an arms race to make the most money.
Yup. The hand-wringing over NIL when the powers that be have done more damage to college athletics is quite humorous to me.
But universities sold their souls a century ago for big-time college athletics.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 01, 2024, 04:22:33 PM
The weirdos are the ones that miss amateurism
so...college ball is for pros not good enough to go...pro? Hey, you're a pro...well sort of...so get paid AND be on scholarship...attend class, of course... because you know, you're a pro... but not really. Got it.
Brother Tower:
Your point about Jim Chones was interesting. My wife and I raised the same question yesterday and she raised an fascinating point. Yes, in my world, Mr. Chones and Maurice Lucas both would have done four years and, maybe, so too would have DWade.
But she asked, "would Marquette have been able to attract and keep the kind of roster we had back then?" It's a very legitimate question given the comparative concentration of college basketball at the time. At the time. a Kentucky, North Carolina, NC State, Florida even LSU could have made it work with lots and lots of money.
UCLA was cheating at the time. So was NC State and every other major program of the day was rumored to be as well ... except us and UNC of course.
Chones would have come and maybe we would have won at least one and maybe two more NCAAs. If Lucas had stayed, Al, might have built a mini dynasty.
Quote from: Viper on September 01, 2024, 05:16:39 PM
so...college ball is for pros not good enough to go...pro? Hey, you're a pro...well sort of...so get paid AND be on scholarship...attend class, of course... because you know, you're a pro... but not really. Got it.
Because they go to class, they're amateurs?
Real amateurs wouldn't have scholarships, anyway. But I doubt scoop would be as active if Marquette was Division III
Quote from: Elonsmusk on September 01, 2024, 04:27:38 PM
What are your thoughts on salary caps in pro sports? Should the NCAA enact salary caps? Is parity good or bad in professional/college sports?
Pro athletes can make unlimited in NIL.
NCAA does have a comically low salary cap. One scholarship per athlete.
If the NCAA wants to reorganize so that the bulk of their value is being paid via their salary instead of having to rely on NIL, I'm all for it
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 01, 2024, 04:43:09 PM
So you don't object to the players forming unions, negotiating minimums and many other benefits but a maximum (cap) for the guys writing the checks is Commie crap. Interesting.
I'm consistent. The commies in this thread are the ones who pick and choose when they act like card carrying commies
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 01, 2024, 04:43:09 PM
So you don't object to the players forming unions, negotiating minimums and many other benefits but a maximum (cap) for the guys writing the checks is Commie crap. Interesting.
A cap negotiated as part of a compensation package via collective bargaining or a cap unilaterally imposed by management?
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 01, 2024, 04:24:51 PM
So if everything was exactly the same but they called it BPA (boosters paying athletes) instead of NIL, you would have no issues with it?
i would still like to see some kind of cap or other restrictions/regulations/rules in order to keep a somewhat of a level playing field.
even the athletes within pro sports can't just go from team to team at will
If someone is allowed to market themselves (ie Paige Bueckers) it's impossible to have a 'salary cap'.
By the way the actual NBA 'salary cap' does not include sponsorships. So it's kind of the same.
If you wanted to lay out a plan to limit booster pay or direct pay I get it. But these kids are now allowed to market themselves and that's not a bad thing.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on September 01, 2024, 06:30:16 PM
even the athletes within pro sports can't just go from team to team at will
Sure they can...and they do...often times they even name the team they demand to be traded to...and that's with a long term contract. They could all enter into 1 year contracts if they wanted.
Quote from: avid1010 on September 01, 2024, 06:37:51 PM
Sure they can...and they do...often times they even name the team they demand to be traded to...and that's with a long term contract. They could all enter into 1 year contracts if they wanted.
depends on their contract, but college athletes don't have contracts. any and all college athlete can go anytime. if a pro has a year to year contract, then he probably should go until he finds the right fit if any. those with multiyear contracts have no option unless it's written in to the contract or if they demand a trade and it is met by his/her team
Quote from: rocket surgeon on September 01, 2024, 06:30:16 PM
i would still like to see some kind of cap or other restrictions/regulations/rules in order to keep a somewhat of a level playing field.
even the athletes within pro sports can't just go from team to team at will
1. There is a cap. 1 scholarship per athlete. That's all their employer is allowed to pay them. NIL is separate and isn't capped for anyone else. Theres a unique situation in high level football and men's basketball (and a select few other spots in college athletics) where because they are so wildly underpaid by their "employer" that the market is attempting to correct that through NIL. If the NCAA reorganizes so that the employers are paying a fair wage for the value bright by the athletes, the NIL will calm down and not need regulation.
2. Youre conflating two seperate issues. Free transfers have nothing to do with NIL.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on September 01, 2024, 06:43:16 PM
depends on their contract, but college athletes don't have contracts. any and all college athlete can go anytime. if a pro has a year to year contract, then he probably should go until he finds the right fit if any. those with multiyear contracts have no option unless it's written in to the contract or if they demand a trade and it is met by his/her team
This isn't true. Once an athlete suits up for a team, that is the only team they can play for that season. Sure they can leave early but pros can hold out as well. For all intents and pulses, they are on one year contracts. But again, this is a separate issue from NIL. If you want to set up some limits on transfers, you can do that without impacting NIL
Quote from: Elonsmusk on September 01, 2024, 04:27:38 PM
What are your thoughts on salary caps in pro sports? Should the NCAA enact salary caps? Is parity good or bad in professional/college sports?
In my opinion parity is good, and is what generates the most interest in sports and subsequent revenue for the players. If there were no salary caps professional football wouldn't have nearly the interest - Green Bay wouldn't stand a chance. Major league baseball had to modify its structure to give small market teams like Milwaukee some fighting chance at success.
If you have a system that will bear out a handful of teams that are always good because they can pay the most and buy a roster, it diminishes broad interest. Sports are physical competitions that involve on court/field strategy, yet you can have the best strategy and coaching, but if your talent (athleticism/skill) isn't good - you can't thrive.
The NCAA can't simply enact a salary cap.
And tell me one time where parity has existed in college sports. Especially college football. Yet it is hugely popular. Probably the second most popular sport in the country.
Quote from: avid1010 on September 01, 2024, 06:37:51 PM
Sure they can...and they do...often times they even name the team they demand to be traded to...and that's with a long term contract. They could all enter into 1 year contracts if they wanted.
This is not correct. Baseball players, for example, can sign one year contract but have to stay with their original team for 6 years before becoming free agents. Don't know the exact restrictions in other sports but there are some. Also, they can't just demand a trade. Or demand a trade to a particular team. If they have a long term contract it may include teams they can or can't be traded to or even a no trade clause.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 01, 2024, 05:31:41 PM
I'm consistent. The commies in this thread are the ones who pick and choose when they act like card carrying commies
So you're a commie if players form a union and a capitalist if they don't. How is that not picking and choosing when you want to be a card carrying commie?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 01, 2024, 08:16:33 PM
This is not correct. Baseball players, for example, can sign one year contract but have to stay with their original team for 6 years before becoming free agents. Don't know the exact restrictions in other sports but there are some. Also, they can't just demand a trade. Or demand a trade to a particular team. If they have a long term contract it may include teams they can or can't be traded to or even a no trade clause.
Because they're unionized and subject to limits collectively bargained.
The schools don't even want them to be employees much less unionized.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on September 01, 2024, 08:10:13 AM
what's keeping a team from allotting $30 million, $40 million...$100 million? when is someone going to cry foul? when people are sick and tired of seeing alabamas, georgias, ohio states, michigans every year? time for a little more "landscaping" eyn'a?
by worse, i mean more confusing. usually there are boundaries, laws, rules etc. when these cease to be or they become more and more gray, we will have "confusion" it seems the goal lines or the heights of the rims are being changed, but no one knows what they will be game to game, season to season
There are currently 3 active college football coaches who have won a national title.
But yes. There was so much parity in college sports until we let these kids get paid. What a shame!
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 01, 2024, 08:23:48 PM
Because they're unionized and subject to limits collectively bargained.
The schools don't even want them to be employees much less unionized.
What it's "because of" is beside the point. Neither of us mentioned college athletes. Avid was talking about pro athletes and made multiple false claims about them. I answered them.
I'd ask you to read posts before replying but I know that's not gonna happen.
The irony in this thread, it's quite rich
Quote from: rocket surgeon on September 01, 2024, 06:43:16 PM
depends on their contract, but college athletes don't have contracts. any and all college athlete can go anytime. if a pro has a year to year contract, then he probably should go until he finds the right fit if any. those with multiyear contracts have no option unless it's written in to the contract or if they demand a trade and it is met by his/her team
Yeah...but your post was BS. You said pro athletes can't come and go as they wish. They sure can. They can sign a one year contract every year. Likely not a good choice, but absolutely an option.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 01, 2024, 08:39:35 PM
What it's "because of" is beside the point. Neither of us mentioned college athletes. Avid was talking about pro athletes and made multiple false claims about them. I answered them.
I'd ask you to read posts before replying but I know that's not gonna happen.
I did. Sorry that you forgot the topic of discussion already.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 01, 2024, 08:22:35 PM
So you're a commie if players form a union and a capitalist if they don't. How is that not picking and choosing when you want to be a card carrying commie?
1. I have no idea what you are talking about. I haven't mentioned anything about players forming a union.
2. I've never held that supporting unions makes you a commie. I am a proud capitalist who understands that there is a place for unions in a capitalist economy. It's others who cry communism when there's any sort of limit on what a person/corporation can make in the free market....except when that person is a college athlete, then we need to cap it.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 01, 2024, 08:16:33 PM
This is not correct. Baseball players, for example, can sign one year contract but have to stay with their original team for 6 years before becoming free agents. Don't know the exact restrictions in other sports but there are some. Also, they can't just demand a trade. Or demand a trade to a particular team. If they have a long term contract it may include teams they can or can't be traded to or even a no trade clause.
Don't follow baseball....but I bet my house that many MLB players can sign one year contracts and demand a trade anytime they freaking want. 6 year stuff would be negotiated by the union I'm sure. Love the no trade clause comment as well...my lord man...have some common sense. A no trade clause isn't there at the teams request...
Quote from: avid1010 on September 01, 2024, 08:45:28 PM
Don't follow baseball....but I bet my house that many MLB players can sign one year contracts and demand a trade anytime they freaking want. 6 year stuff would negotiated by the union I'm sure. Love the no trade clause comment as well...my lord man.
Please don't bet your house on that or anything else in your post. I'd hate to see you homeless.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 01, 2024, 08:43:04 PM
I did. Sorry that you forgot the topic of discussion already.
Look, I know part of your whole stalking thing includes making comments that have zero to do with what I or the person I replied to were talking about. But I really think you should stop.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 01, 2024, 08:49:00 PM
Please don't bet your house on that or anything else in your post. I'd hate to see you homeless.
A google search of mlb players with 1 year contracts revealed plenty. Nothing would ever stop a player from demanding a trade...helped the Brewers get Yelich. And seeing as we are talking about players being able to leave anytime they want...a no trade clause (which apparently everyone in the world but you realizes) is at the request of the player not the team.
Quote from: avid1010 on September 01, 2024, 08:45:28 PM
Don't follow baseball....but I bet my house that many MLB players can sign one year contracts and demand a trade anytime they freaking want. 6 year stuff would be negotiated by the union I'm sure. Love the no trade clause comment as well...my lord man...have some common sense. A no trade clause isn't there at the teams request...
The fault of unregulated NIL has to do with the incompetence of the NCAA and willful ignorance of its member institutes.
Tower has asked those blaming NIL for all the woes in college sports for a way to regulate and fix it but instead, they've derailed the topic over pedantic language BS. It's because they don't have solutions. Blame the athletes and change the subject to unimportant points.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on September 01, 2024, 04:27:38 PM
What are your thoughts on salary caps in pro sports? Should the NCAA enact salary caps? Is parity good or bad in professional/college sports?
In my opinion parity is good, and is what generates the most interest in sports and subsequent revenue for the players. If there were no salary caps professional football wouldn't have nearly the interest - Green Bay wouldn't stand a chance. Major league baseball had to modify its structure to give small market teams like Milwaukee some fighting chance at success.
If you have a system that will bear out a handful of teams that are always good because they can pay the most and buy a roster, it diminishes broad interest. Sports are physical competitions that involve on court/field strategy, yet you can have the best strategy and coaching, but if your talent (athleticism/skill) isn't good - you can't thrive.
I like parity, but I think you're way off on this if you think that's what's best for sports and what most sports fans like.
The MLB would kill for a Yankees/Dodgers WS every year. The NBA would kill for a C's/Lakers Finals every year. The NFL would kill for a Cowboys/Pats (or whoever) SB every year.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 01, 2024, 08:56:25 PM
Look, I know part of your whole stalking thing includes making comments that have zero to do with what I or the person I replied to were talking about. But I really think you should stop.
So so mad.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 01, 2024, 09:10:32 PM
I like parity, but I think you're way off on this if you think that's what's best for sports and what most sports fans like.
The MLB would kill for a Yankees/Dodgers WS every year. The NBA would kill for a C's/Lakers Finals every year. The NFL would kill for a Cowboys/Pats (or whoever) SB every year.
In 23 years this century, there have been 13 football champions in D1. Same with hoops.
Parity is a myth.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 01, 2024, 09:16:23 PM
So so mad.
Happiest guy around. Your continued dishonesty towards me neither surprises me nor angers me. Would I prefer you give up your obsessive stalking? Yes. Does it mess with my happy? No.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 01, 2024, 09:07:19 PM
The fault of unregulated NIL has to do with the incompetence of the NCAA and willful ignorance of its member institutes.
Tower has asked those blaming NIL for all the woes in college sports for a way to regulate and fix it but instead, they've derailed the topic over pedantic language BS. It's because they don't have solutions. Blame the athletes and change the subject to unimportant points.
? Avid isn't talking about NIL, unregulated or otherwise. He's talking about MLB, NHL, NBA and NFL players.
Other than that I don't disagree.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 01, 2024, 09:51:02 PM
? Avid isn't talking about NIL, unregulated or otherwise. He's talking about MLB, NHL, NBA and NFL players.
Other than that I don't disagree.
So, you didn't read Avid's other posts
Quote from: avid1010 on September 01, 2024, 09:03:34 PM
A google search of mlb players with 1 year contracts revealed plenty. Nothing would ever stop a player from demanding a trade...helped the Brewers get Yelich. And seeing as we are talking about players being able to leave anytime they want...a no trade clause (which apparently everyone in the world but you realizes) is at the request of the player not the team.
Of course there are a lot of one year contracts in baseball. What does that have to do with anything regarding player's rights to demand a trade? (Answer: Nothing) as guy in his first, second, third, fourth or fifth year on a one year contract has 2 choices at the end of the season - sign another contract with the team he is with or not play baseball the following year. "Demands" for a trade would be met with laughter. When a guy approaches free agency, the teams can decide from a number of possibilities what to do with the player. Sign him to another 1 year contract, sign him to a multi year contract, let him sign elsewhere and be compensated with a draft choice or (finally) trade him. But the player isn't traded because he can "demand" it. He can't. He's traded because his team decides that's their best option.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 01, 2024, 09:54:35 PM
So, you didn't read Avid's other posts
I replied only to the one referring to professional athletes. Which was also the one that you replied to.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 01, 2024, 09:18:35 PM
In 23 years this century, there have been 13 football champions in D1. Same with hoops.
Parity is a myth.
Crapshoot, dipsh1t
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 01, 2024, 09:40:06 PM
Happiest guy around. Your continued dishonesty towards me neither surprises me nor angers me. Would I prefer you give up your obsessive stalking? Yes. Does it mess with my happy? No.
Liar.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 01, 2024, 09:51:02 PM
? Avid isn't talking about NIL, unregulated or otherwise. He's talking about MLB, NHL, NBA and NFL players.
Other than that I don't disagree.
No, Lenny, you brought up pro sports when you said pro athletes can't go from team to team like college athletes can.
I simply stated that is not the case. The majority of pro athletes can sign 1 year contracts if they so choose. If they can't, it's because their union bargained and agreed otherwise.
It was a lazy argument on your behalf. It would be like me saying college athletes in their last year of eligibility can't transfer or they can't leave mid-year and play in the same year...no sh1t.
While I don't follow baseball, a quick search of MLB players demanding a trade showed Yelich did so to get out of Miami and landed in MKE. I do follow the NBA, and guys like Harden have repeatedly played that game.
You brought up the "no trade" clauses, which had nothing to do with the argument as they keep players in a location at the players request, yet you are upset players are leaving? The whole purpose of the no-trade clause is for pro athletes to have some protection from getting tossed around every year...yet you mention it in an argument against players being able to move? Colleges were never giving 4 year scholarships.
At this point I'm not even sure you know the difference between transfer rules and NIL in the college landscape.
Quote from: avid1010 on September 02, 2024, 06:44:22 AM
No, Lenny, you brought up pro sports when you said pro athletes can't go from team to team like college athletes can.
I simply stated that is not the case. The majority of pro athletes can sign 1 year contracts if they so choose. If they can't, it's because their union bargained and agreed otherwise.
It was a lazy argument on your behalf. It would be like me saying college athletes in their last year of eligibility can't transfer or they can't leave mid-year and play in the same year...no sh1t.
While I don't follow baseball, a quick search of MLB players demanding a trade showed Yelich did so to get out of Miami and landed in MKE. I do follow the NBA, and guys like Harden have repeatedly played that game.
You brought up the "no trade" clauses, which had nothing to do with the argument as they keep players in a location at the players request, yet you are upset players are leaving? The whole purpose of the no-trade clause is for pro athletes to have some protection from getting tossed around every year...yet you mention it in an argument against players being able to move? Colleges were never giving 4 year scholarships.
At this point I'm not even sure you know the difference between transfer rules and NIL in the college landscape.
lol. Exactly.
Quote from: Jay Bee on September 01, 2024, 10:09:40 PM
Crapshoot, dipsh1t
You misspelled a word and used the number 1 instead of the letter I.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 01, 2024, 09:10:32 PM
I like parity, but I think you're way off on this if you think that's what's best for sports and what most sports fans like.
The MLB would kill for a Yankees/Dodgers WS every year. The NBA would kill for a C's/Lakers Finals every year. The NFL would kill for a Cowboys/Pats (or whoever) SB every year.
This doesn't seem true, given that all of these leagues have taken actions to blunt the inherent advantages of the big-market teams and to make dynastic success more difficult. Salary caps and luxury taxes mainly exist to artificially depress player compensation, but they also have the effect of creating more competitive balance.
The TV networks may kill for those matchups, but the leagues' behavior is to the contrary.
Quote from: Pakuni on September 02, 2024, 07:54:57 AM
This doesn't seem true, given that all of these leagues have taken actions to blunt the inherent advantages of the big-market teams and to make dynastic success more difficult. Salary caps and luxury taxes mainly exist to artificially depress player compensation, but they also have the effect of creating more competitive balance.
The TV networks may kill for those matchups, but the leagues' behavior is to the contrary.
That's because there are more owners that aren't large market teams.
And it's the networks, rather than the leagues, that want those match ups anyway.
Nerd said juxtapose
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 01, 2024, 03:36:54 PM
You want to artifically limit how much someone can make in the free maket? Better get that Commie crap out of my Murica comrade Rocket surgeon
When states and the Feds tell businesses what the minimum cost of labor must be that is not a free market.
It looks like some of you want to go full Agatha Christie when it comes to paying student athletes.
Murder on the NIL.
Or, de-NIL isn't just a river in Egypt.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on September 02, 2024, 01:50:59 PM
When states and the Feds tell businesses what the minimum cost of labor must be that is not a free market.
So you acknowledge that the united states has never had a fully capitalist economy? Interesting
Quote from: Viper on September 01, 2024, 05:16:39 PM
so...college ball is for pros not good enough to go...pro? Hey, you're a pro...well sort of...so get paid AND be on scholarship...attend class, of course... because you know, you're a pro... but not really. Got it.
Why do you care that college athletes are paid? Does that lessen your enjoyment of the game?
And, how is this different than before when the money was coming in under the table?
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 02, 2024, 03:19:25 PM
Why do you care that college athletes are paid? Does that lessen your enjoyment of the game?
Why do you care that he cares?
Quote from: lawdog77 on September 02, 2024, 03:45:16 PM
Why do you care that he cares?
He posted it on a message board. Isn't the point of a message board to post and debate opinions on various topics?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 02, 2024, 07:09:18 AM
You misspelled a word and used the number 1 instead of the letter I.
U r a number 2 doo doo face
Quote from: Jay Bee on September 02, 2024, 05:35:05 PM
U r a number 2 doo doo face
Hope you're going to confession this week.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 02, 2024, 05:39:18 PM
Hope you're going to confession this week.
It's a daily affair. Ax Pastor Pete
Quote from: avid1010 on September 02, 2024, 06:44:22 AM
No, Lenny, you brought up pro sports when you said pro athletes can't go from team to team like college athletes.
I brought up pro sports? Huh?
Rocket says: "even the athletes within PRO sports can't just go from team to team at will".
He is correct, PRO athletes have restrictions that they have agreed to that limit their freedom of movement.
You reply to rocket: sure they (PROs) can...and they do.
You're wrong. They can't move without restrictions but only in the context of what their bargaining agreements allow.
So after rocket brought up PROs and you responded about PROs I merely pointed out some realities about the PROs which is what you and rocket were talking about.
If you're honest, you'll look back and see The post I quoted you on was about Pro athletes, not college ones.
Quote from: Jay Bee on September 02, 2024, 05:40:15 PM
It's a daily affair. Ax Pastor Pete
Don't need to hear about your daily affair with Pastor Pete.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 02, 2024, 03:19:25 PM
Why do you care that college athletes are paid? Does that lessen your enjoyment of the game?
my interest is less than it was before NIL came about. I'll leave it at that.
I get that. For me, it was conference realignment and the greed of the member institutions. I doubt I have watched 10 regular season college football games in the last 10 years.
Quote from: Viper on September 02, 2024, 08:30:30 PM
my interest is less than it was before NIL came about. I'll leave it at that.
But why? I guess I don't understand why someone's amateur status has any bearing on one's interest.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 02, 2024, 08:35:18 PM
But why? I guess I don't understand why someone's amateur status has any bearing on one's interest.
Honestly, all I can think of is jealousy. They see college kids making as much in a year as they've made in most of their career and it makes them feel inadequate. Pro sports it's fine. They are (mostly) adults who are in the top .01% of all athletes. But college kids making their current salary just to ride the bench? Different story.
I'm open to other explanations but anytime I've asked this question I've gotten vague answers like:
Quote from: Viper on September 02, 2024, 08:30:30 PM
my interest is less than it was before NIL came about. I'll leave it at that.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 02, 2024, 08:35:18 PM
But why? I guess I don't understand why someone's amateur status has any bearing on one's interest.
I'll explain it like this. It's the 'separation' that has always appealed to me...playing for your school, your teammates, classmates, fans, rivalries or whatever, but not for a contract or endorsement or boosters bag. Playing because I really like basketball, good at it, getting a free education out of it. The simplicity of it. Now...Recruits making decision's on where to play, or if to transfer and where, based on the size of the check. For me, unappealing. Just wait, soon you'll have college players holding out because they decide the $ isn't enough, or, the deposit is late, or the endorsement didn't come thru as planned. We play at UConn on Saturday, Billy. You ready? Well, I'm not happy with my NIL. I'm over performing. So, probably won't play this one. Me and Johnny sitting out the 'Nova game too...although Coach is making some phone calls, so we'll see.
You think that's far fetched?
There was a time I loved the nba. Not so much anymore that has nothing to do with contracts. College? I like it better than the nba but like it less than a few years ago. (same with football. Prefer college over the nfl but less enthused due to nil and realignments) Other than Marquette I don't watch many games until March. Truth be told, if MU isn't in the tournament, or once they are out, I'm out.
So you were perfectly fine with those pure amateur athletes getting their boosters' bags under the table?
You obviously were fine with all the $$$ going to the networks, conferences, schools, coaches, administrators, etc. ... and none going to the athletes who make college sports possible.
Anyway, Viper, thanks for the explanation. It's illogical, but you're obviously allowed to like or dislike the sports (and anything else) that you want to like or dislike.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 02, 2024, 03:14:09 PM
So you acknowledge that the united states has never had a fully capitalist economy? Interesting
There was unfettered capitalism until the Sherman anti-trust act was passed in 1890 and Massachusetts passed the first minimum wage law in 1912. JP Morgan, Cornelius Vanderbilt, John D. Rockefeller, and Andrew Carnegi are prime examples of capitalists at their worst.
The closest thing to a monopoly today would be Google.
Quote from: Viper on September 02, 2024, 11:03:20 PM
I'll explain it like this. It's the 'separation' that has always appealed to me...playing for your school, your teammates, classmates, fans, rivalries or whatever, but not for a contract or endorsement or boosters bag. Playing because I really like basketball, good at it, getting a free education out of it. The simplicity of it. Now...Recruits making decision's on where to play, or if to transfer and where, based on the size of the check. For me, unappealing. Just wait, soon you'll have college players holding out because they decide the $ isn't enough, or, the deposit is late, or the endorsement didn't come thru as planned. We play at UConn on Saturday, Billy. You ready? Well, I'm not happy with my NIL. I'm over performing. So, probably won't play this one. Me and Johnny sitting out the 'Nova game too...although Coach is making some phone calls, so we'll see.
You think that's far fetched?
There was a time I loved the nba. Not so much anymore that has nothing to do with contracts. College? I like it better than the nba but like it less than a few years ago. (same with football. Prefer college over the nfl but less enthused due to nil and realignments) Other than Marquette I don't watch many games until March. Truth be told, if MU isn't in the tournament, or once they are out, I'm out.
I think players can love playing basketball, love playing for their school, AND get paid NIL money right? Also, until those things actually become problems, I won't actually treat them as problems.
But I do appreciate the response.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on September 03, 2024, 07:04:02 AM
There was unfettered capitalism until the Sherman anti-trust act was passed in 1890 and Massachusetts passed the first minimum wage law in 1912. JP Morgan, Cornelius Vanderbilt, John D. Rockefeller, and Andrew Carnegi are prime examples of capitalists at their worst.
The closest thing to a monopoly today would be Google.
This is incorrect. While 1887 was when the first economic regulatory body was founded, the US government has passed laws that placed limits on the free market since it's inception.
Quote from: Viper on September 02, 2024, 11:03:20 PM
I'll explain it like this. It's the 'separation' that has always appealed to me...playing for your school, your teammates, classmates, fans, rivalries or whatever, but not for a contract or endorsement or boosters bag. Playing because I really like basketball, good at it, getting a free education out of it. The simplicity of it. Now...Recruits making decision's on where to play, or if to transfer and where, based on the size of the check. For me, unappealing. Just wait, soon you'll have college players holding out because they decide the $ isn't enough, or, the deposit is late, or the endorsement didn't come thru as planned. We play at UConn on Saturday, Billy. You ready? Well, I'm not happy with my NIL. I'm over performing. So, probably won't play this one. Me and Johnny sitting out the 'Nova game too...although Coach is making some phone calls, so we'll see.
You think that's far fetched?
There was a time I loved the nba. Not so much anymore that has nothing to do with contracts. College? I like it better than the nba but like it less than a few years ago. (same with football. Prefer college over the nfl but less enthused due to nil and realignments) Other than Marquette I don't watch many games until March. Truth be told, if MU isn't in the tournament, or once they are out, I'm out.
well stated viper! hold out on the big games might leave a little bruise
I would say that the NIL situation would take away some of enjoyment from college basketball if MU was not having success. I have no problem with guys getting paid but it has gotten out of hand, imo. If MU were to struggle in the future, I definitely would find myself having a lot less interest than I currently do.
So you are OK with them being paid, but only a certain amount?
Fluff
Really do not care how much they are paid. Not a fan of guys moving every year for more money and the general vibe of the NIL era. My biggest gripe is the going to program to program, not the money.
Quote from: Goose on September 03, 2024, 12:33:41 PM
Fluff
Really do not care how much they are paid. Not a fan of guys moving every year for more money and the general vibe of the NIL era. My biggest gripe is the going to program to program, not the money.
The NCAA could stop this if it wanted.
Quote from: Viper on September 02, 2024, 11:03:20 PM
I'll explain it like this. It's the 'separation' that has always appealed to me...playing for your school, your teammates, classmates, fans, rivalries or whatever, but not for a contract or endorsement or boosters bag. Playing because I really like basketball, good at it, getting a free education out of it. The simplicity of it. Now...Recruits making decision's on where to play, or if to transfer and where, based on the size of the check. Just wait, soon you'll have college players holding out because they decide the $ isn't enough, or, the deposit is late, or the endorsement didn't come thru as planned. We play at UConn on Saturday, Billy. You ready? Well, I'm not happy with my NIL. I'm over performing. So, probably won't play this one. Me and Johnny sitting out the 'Nova game too...although Coach is making some phone calls, so we'll see.
You think that's far fetched?
Just wait? Far fetched? It's already happening. Nigel Pack demanded a "renegotiation" of his NIL deal after another player got more. Kadary Richmond sat out three conference games (probably costing The Hall a tourney bid) because NIL payments were late and he wanted more money. I know of other players who just couldn't get healthy enough to play because payments didn't come through. Tampering is out of control with agents and parents negotiating with collectives from other schools during the season.
I can't speak for current students, but it would have been weird for me to be in class sitting next to a hoops player who is on his or her third school in three years who is making $1 million, living in a luxury condo, and driving a Range Rover...if they're even going to class.
Quote from: Pakuni on September 03, 2024, 12:57:36 PM
The NCAA could stop this if it wanted.
they tried: https://apnews.com/article/tennessee-ncaa-lawsuit-nil-7ecfad9c88f8c8baa7e0f4bb00f22ec9
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on September 03, 2024, 01:17:21 PM
I can't speak for current students, but it would have been weird for me to be in class sitting next to a hoops player who is on his or her third school in three years who is making $1 million, living in a luxury condo, and driving a Range Rover...if they're even going to class.
I managed to get through both Marquette and my Catholic high school while sharing classroom space with students driving nicer cars, living in nicer homes and having way more financial wherewithal than I.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on September 03, 2024, 01:18:44 PM
they tried: https://apnews.com/article/tennessee-ncaa-lawsuit-nil-7ecfad9c88f8c8baa7e0f4bb00f22ec9
That's not what I meant.
There's a step the NCAA could take that would allow it to seek limits on player movement. The NCAA has steadfastly refused to do so.
I remember walking by and seeing Wlatwr Downing hand washing his very nice car. I just always assumed the MU players were getting the lucrative handshake.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on September 03, 2024, 01:17:21 PM
I can't speak for current students, but it would have been weird for me to be in class sitting next to a hoops player who is on his or her third school in three years who is making $1 million, living in a luxury condo, and driving a Range Rover...if they're even going to class.
So I guess TAMU was right then.
Quote from: MU82 on September 03, 2024, 06:23:04 AM
So you were perfectly fine with those pure amateur athletes getting their boosters' bags under the table?
You obviously were fine with all the $$$ going to the networks, conferences, schools, coaches, administrators, etc. ... and none going to the athletes who make college sports possible.
Anyway, Viper, thanks for the explanation. It's illogical, but you're obviously allowed to like or dislike the sports (and anything else) that you want to like or dislike.
you don't have a job, do you?
tower
MU players quite likely have had some "perks" over the years and that never bothered me one bit. Guys getting paid today does not bother me, it is other stuff that bothers me.
I am not sure if 100% accurate or not but I heard that Kon actually got the equivalent of a two year NIL deal at Duke. The way I heard it was he needed to stay for two years to get his money. My source is someone I trust and has been around the block and I trust him. For the record, my source is big time Badger guy and he has never shared anything with me that has not proven to be true.
Quote from: Pakuni on September 03, 2024, 12:57:36 PM
The NCAA could stop this if it wanted.
How, oh wise one?
They could make student athletes employees and negotiate with them as a players union.
That's why professional athletes don't have complete freedom of movement.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 03, 2024, 02:34:38 PM
They could make student athletes employees and negotiate with them as a players union.
That's why professional athletes don't have complete freedom of movement.
Not sure why college basketball players would want this. Seems to me like the college basketball player has the advantage now the way NIL is along with the freedom to move after their one year commitment is up
Would all schools be in the union, or does each school have a Local union? Can one school strike? Would seniors and others who would be going pro even want to strike? Professional sports unions are in much smaller scale than what a NCAA union would be.
Quote from: lawdog77 on September 03, 2024, 02:49:36 PM
Not sure why college basketball players would want this. Seems to me like the college basketball player has the advantage now the way NIL is along with the freedom to move after their one year commitment is up
Would all schools be in the union, or does each school have a Local union? Can one school strike? Would seniors and others who would be going pro even want to strike? Professional sports unions are in much smaller scale than what a NCAA union would be.
The players may want it to set parameters around working conditions and enhanced additional compensation in return for less freedom of movement.
The rest of your questions would sort themselves out.
Viper; Just want to say I resonate and really appreciate your pertinent and well written explanation of your position/feeling vis a vis amateur college athletics. I agree 99%.
Thank for articulating my feelings as well
"playing for your school, your teammates, classmates, fans, rivalries or whatever, but not for a contract"
Guys, it's not 1950 anymore. College athletics is a big time business that the players have not been allowed to adequately compensate from.
And we need to stop acting that "playing for your school, your teammates, classmates, fans" and "playing for a contract" are mutually exclusive options.
Quote from: lawdog77 on September 03, 2024, 02:33:29 PM
How, oh wise one?
Yep, what Sultan said.. Make athletes employees and collectively bargain with their union.
Quote from: lawdog77 on September 03, 2024, 02:33:29 PM
Not sure why college basketball players would want this. Seems to me like the college basketball player has the advantage now the way NIL is along with the freedom to move after their one year commitment is up
Why would professional athletes want unions?
The answer, of course, is obvious. Unions invariably boost wages, protect workers from unlawful treatment and improve working conditions.
There's the reason the NCAA - and big businesses everywhere - fight unionization, and it's not because they're looking out for the workers' best interests.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 03, 2024, 02:57:29 PM
The players may want it to set parameters around working conditions and enhanced additional compensation in return for less freedom of movement.
The rest of your questions would sort themselves out.
I understand your points, but if I am a high D-1 basketball player, there is no way I would want my ability to change schools yearly to be lessened. I think the toothpaste is out of the tube on that issue. Parameters around working conditions should be discussed before the NLI is signed.
Saying the other things will work themselves out? I don't agree with that.
Quote from: Pakuni on September 03, 2024, 03:04:33 PM
Yep, what Sultan said.. Make athletes employees and collectively bargain with their union.
Why would professional athletes want unions?
The answer, of course, is obvious. Unions invariably boost wages, protect workers from unlawful treatment and improve working conditions.
There's the reason the NCAA - and big businesses everywhere - fight unionization, and it's not because they're looking out for the workers' best interests.
Help me find a union where the members are required to leave the union after 4 or 5 years. This is nowhere near a typical union.
Playing for dear old Alma mater
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Quote from: lawdog77 on September 03, 2024, 02:33:29 PM
How, oh wise one?
The NCAA buried their heads in the sand for the last 30 years. This day was coming long ago and they chose not to prepare or plan for it.
They've let the environment get this way in a hope the government fixes the mess they made.
You can add the conferences and university leadership across the nation as being the others to blame.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 03, 2024, 03:17:04 PM
The NCAA buried their heads in the sand for the last 30 years. This day was coming long ago and they chose not to prepare or plan for it.
They've let the environment get this way in a hope the government fixes the mess they made.
You can add the conferences and university leadership across the nation as being the others to blame.
I wholeheartedly agree. I just think forming a union in this case would do more harm than good for the athletes.
Quote from: lawdog77 on September 03, 2024, 03:11:13 PM
Help me find a union where the members are required to leave the union after 4 or 5 years. This is nowhere near a typical union.
What about this one:
https://www.uchicagogsu.org/
And this one:
https://harvardgradunion.org/
And this one:
https://bcgradunion.com/
And this one:
https://mitgsu.org/
Plus about 150 others across the country.
And you're correct, it would not be a typical union. Neither is the SAG. Or the NFLPA. Or the ALPA.
So what? Does it need to be exactly like the IBEW?
Quote from: lawdog77 on September 03, 2024, 03:21:14 PM
I wholeheartedly agree. I just think forming a union in this case would do more harm than good for the athletes.
How so?
Right now, there is no need for a union for D-1 basketball players. The extra money they would get from a school would not outweigh the restriction of movement that I am sure the schools would want to collectively bargain for.
Do all D-1 basketball players have to join the union? Will all schools have to only hire union athletes?
When players were Creaned or Buzzcut, what was the reaction?
Quote from: tower912 on September 03, 2024, 03:42:44 PM
When players were Creaned or Buzzcut, what was the reaction?
Depended if the player brought in was better.
Quote from: lawdog77 on September 03, 2024, 03:38:18 PM
Right now, there is no need for a union for D-1 basketball players. The extra money they would get from a school would not outweigh the restriction of movement that I am sure the schools would want to collectively bargain for.
Neither of us have any idea if this is true. Athletes in other professional sports have decided the benefits of unionization outweigh the restrictions of movement that come with a CBA (and for good reason).
Quote
Do all D-1 basketball players have to join the union? Will all schools have to only hire union athletes?
I don't know why they would. Not all NFL players have to join the NFLPA. But I imagine, for several reasons, few would chose not to.
Quote from: Pakuni on September 03, 2024, 01:22:04 PM
I managed to get through both Marquette and my Catholic high school while sharing classroom space with students driving nicer cars, living in nicer homes and having way more financial wherewithal than I.
Lol right?
Not to mention, sharing a classroom at MU with guys who flew charter flights to stay in nice hotels and have tutors follow them around the country to make sure they're getting good enough grades to keep helping the school rack up basketball wins.
The idea that these guys were your everyday, average students back before NIL is LOL funny.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 03, 2024, 04:02:51 PM
Lol right?
Not to mention, sharing a classroom at MU with guys who flew charter flights to stay in nice hotels and have tutors follow them around the country to make sure they're getting good enough grades to keep helping the school rack up basketball wins.
The idea that these guys were your everyday, average students back before NIL is LOL funny.
Disagree. They were students first playing for dear old Alma mater, you know, the name on the front of the jersey, not the name on the back. Like Jimmy Butler
Quote from: Pakuni on September 03, 2024, 03:57:01 PM
Neither of us have any idea if this is true. Athletes in other professional sports have decided the benefits of unionization outweigh the restrictions of movement that come with a CBA (and for good reason).
I don't know why they would. Not all NFL players have to join the NFLPA. But I imagine, for several reasons, few would chose not to.
States schools are exempt from this, correct?
Quote from: wadesworld on September 03, 2024, 04:02:51 PM
Lol right?
Not to mention, sharing a classroom at MU with guys who flew charter flights to stay in nice hotels and have tutors follow them around the country to make sure they're getting good enough grades to keep helping the school rack up basketball wins.
The idea that these guys were your everyday, average students back before NIL is LOL funny.
Not to mention they didn't have to pay a dime for school because of their athletic ability.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 03, 2024, 04:02:51 PM
Lol right?
Not to mention, sharing a classroom at MU with guys who flew charter flights to stay in nice hotels and have tutors follow them around the country to make sure they're getting good enough grades to keep helping the school rack up basketball wins.
The idea that these guys were your everyday, average students back before NIL is LOL funny.
1000%. These guys haven't been true student athletes for many many years.
Quote from: lawdog77 on September 03, 2024, 04:13:44 PM
States schools are exempt from this, correct?
From what?
Who wrote anything about the NRLB?
I mean, I know where you're trying to go with this, but holy non sequitur.
The reality is state university employees have the right to organize and collectively bargain in 2/3rds of states. And I suspect in places where they don't, that'll change very quickly if those states care about football or basketball. Brian Kemp won't want to be remembered as the governor that allowed the Bulldogs to become irrelevant.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 03, 2024, 03:03:19 PM
Guys, it's not 1950 anymore. College athletics is a big time business that the players have not been allowed to adequately compensate from.
And we need to stop acting that "playing for your school, your teammates, classmates, fans" and "playing for a contract" are mutually exclusive options.
adequately compensated from. 🤔 Well...take the scholly and perks of tutors, trainers, training table, travel, degree of fame, blah blah of which most kids would die for...or, take the $...and aforementioned perks. Freedom in America is beautiful. And, if that deal isn't good enough for said player, then go pro son, i.e. NBA, G, Euro. After all, you can always come back to college when that pro career is over. Scholly AND 💰? Well, he wants it, he's gettin' it, hey.
Quote from: Viper on September 03, 2024, 07:53:40 PM
adequately compensated from. 🤔 Well...take the scholly and perks of tutors, trainers, training table, travel, degree of fame, blah blah of which most kids would die for...or, take the $...and aforementioned perks. Freedom in America is beautiful. And, if that deal isn't good enough for said player, then go pro son, i.e. NBA, G, Euro. After all, you can always come back to college when that pro career is over. Scholly AND 💰? Well, he wants it, he's gettin' it, hey.
College basketball players were not adequately compensated according to the marketplace. The fact that they now make significantly more money without the limitations previously in place proves that.
Quote from: Viper on September 03, 2024, 07:53:40 PM
adequately compensated from. 🤔 Well...take the scholly and perks of tutors, trainers, training table, travel, degree of fame, blah blah of which most kids would die for...or, take the $...and aforementioned perks. Freedom in America is beautiful. And, if that deal isn't good enough for said player, then go pro son, i.e. NBA, G, Euro. After all, you can always come back to college when that pro career is over. Scholly AND 💰? Well, he wants it, he's gettin' it, hey.
Freedom in America is beautiful. That's why there's NIL.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 03, 2024, 08:03:57 PM
College basketball players were not adequately compensated according to the marketplace. The fact that they now make significantly more money without the limitations previously in place proves that.
great...go make that money, OR, take the scholly
Quote from: Viper on September 03, 2024, 08:15:02 PM
great...go make that money, OR, take the scholly
(https://media1.tenor.com/m/odyVsZbC-OYAAAAC/why-not-both-why-not.gif)
Quote from: Viper on September 03, 2024, 08:15:02 PM
great...go make that money, OR, take the scholly
But seriously...why? The marketplace determines that they should get both.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 03, 2024, 08:28:38 PM
But seriously...why? The marketplace determines that they should get both.
The courts, state governments and NCAA determined that, too.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 03, 2024, 08:28:38 PM
But seriously...why? The marketplace determines that they should get both.
I think he's saying that college athletes who choise the money should go play overseas or in the g league and only those who choose the schollie should be allowed to be an athlete.... which would of course not solve the some college athletes are underpaid problem
A ton of college kids get scholarship money and make money working a job at the same time. Seems absurd to force them to choose one or the other.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 03, 2024, 08:39:39 PM
I think he's saying that college athletes who choise the money should go play overseas or in the g league and only those who choose the schollie should be allowed to be an athlete.... which would of course not solve the some college athletes are underpaid problem
you've misunderstood. I've been consistent in my preference that collegiate sports remain on a level separate from the 'professional' game.
Take the scholly. Or...take the $. You can play college ball taking the $. My acquiescence to those that will say...'but they've always been paid. Now it's legal'. Yes, amateurism is dead. (Well, except for MU82's posts. Jesus loves you, '82)
Take the one that got away, Kon... gets what, $500k per from Duke? Kon, take the $. It's the smart play. Leave the scholly for, say, Little Rico. Little Rico, you got a $10 handshake? Take the scholly, the tutors, training table, Duke swag etc etc. (yes, Kon gets the tutors, training table etc too)
Choices. Beautiful. Both play college ball. Kon makes large $...as much as possible I hope. Awesome! You'll cover your tuition while here, then off to the pro's in a year or two. Billy? No $ kiddo...but the 'marketplace' dictates this. However...Full ride! No debt. You'll make connections from being on the team, maybe run AutoZone or Krogers in a few years, possibly making more $ than Kon!!
A marketplace with options. Perfect.
Or, do what we're doing now. Everyone gets a scholly, and bag, and 'college' ball is a less talented gleague with 'academic obligations' because, after all, we are here for a degree. My take. I get it, you all disagree. Next.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 03, 2024, 09:41:21 PM
A ton of college kids get scholarship money and make money working a job at the same time. Seems absurd to force them to choose one or the other.
force? No one is forcing anyone to do anything. One gets paid to ball. One gets paid to wait tables, Uber, or whatever...or not.
Quote from: Viper on September 03, 2024, 10:05:37 PM
force? No one is forcing anyone to do anything. One gets paid to ball. One gets paid to wait tables, Uber, or whatever...or not.
Correct. So both get scholarship money and pocket money. Why are we telling one group they can only get scholarship money or pocket money but letting the other group get both?
Quote from: wadesworld on September 03, 2024, 10:10:57 PM
Correct. So both get scholarship money and pocket money. Why are we telling one group they can only get scholarship money or pocket money but letting the other group get both?
collegiate athletics, amateur athletics, is long gone. So there ya go. Although, on the pga tour, I don't believe a golfer that is playing as an amateur gets to keep money won. I guess that guy will have to work in the clubhouse.
Quote from: Viper on September 03, 2024, 02:15:09 PM
you don't have a job, do you?
I'm retired. What does that have to do with your belief that college athletes should have to make a choice between pre-NIL-era benefits or going pro ... when the fact is that they don't have to make that choice?
Quote from: Viper on September 03, 2024, 09:55:14 PM
Jesus loves you, '82
And I like Jesus (or I would, if he didn't die thousands of years ago). What's not to like - he's one of our boys who made it big!
Quote from: Viper on September 03, 2024, 09:55:14 PM
you've misunderstood. I've been consistent in my preference that collegiate sports remain on a level separate from the 'professional' game.
Take the scholly. Or...take the $. You can play college ball taking the $. My acquiescence to those that will say...'but they've always been paid. Now it's legal'. Yes, amateurism is dead. (Well, except for MU82's posts. Jesus loves you, '82)
Take the one that got away, Kon... gets what, $500k per from Duke? Kon, take the $. It's the smart play. Leave the scholly for, say, Little Rico. Little Rico, you got a $10 handshake? Take the scholly, the tutors, training table, Duke swag etc etc. (yes, Kon gets the tutors, training table etc too)
Choices. Beautiful. Both play college ball. Kon makes large $...as much as possible I hope. Awesome! You'll cover your tuition while here, then off to the pro's in a year or two. Billy? No $ kiddo...but the 'marketplace' dictates this. However...Full ride! No debt. You'll make connections from being on the team, maybe run AutoZone or Krogers in a few years, possibly making more $ than Kon!!
A marketplace with options. Perfect.
Or, do what we're doing now. Everyone gets a scholly, and bag, and 'college' ball is a less talented gleague with 'academic obligations' because, after all, we are here for a degree. My take. I get it, you all disagree. Next.
So what does this accomplish other than screw over private schools like Marquette?
"Hey Kam, we got you a $100K for the upcoming season but you're going to have to pay us $45K for tuition. Oh, Tennessee will give you $100K and you only need to pay $5K for tuition? Yeah that sounds like a better deal. Yeah I know we used to be able to offer you both but some people got grumpy about it. I mean can't you play for 'your school, your teammates, classmates, fans, rivalries, or whatever'? Oh, you were already doing that because they are not mutually exclusive options? Oh and you come from a low-income family so we're asking you to choose between a better life for your family and making some fans you've never met feel all warm and fuzzy about your commitment to their favorite college basketball team? Yeah that doesn't sound like a difficult choice. But Kam, you got to understand, these guys really miss a time when the three-pointer didn't exist and dunking was illegal. It would be such a thrill for them. Whats that? Well yeah all those players were getting paid under the table but these guys like to pretend they weren't. And I know that they wax poetic about Al Maguire looking in Chones' fridge and telling him to go pro, but you should just suck it up and play for less than what the marketplace has determined you are worth. Oh you're actually calling me from Knoxville? You already told them you would be transferring? Cool cool cool cool."
I hope you hold yourself to these same standards. You better be working for the same company that gave you your first professional job and regularly turn down raises and bonuses because you work for the name on the front of your work polo, not for contracts. Of course you don't, because that would be stupid. But my guess is that you take tremendous pride in your work even though you're also accepting as much money as your company is willing to give.
Fine. Get rid of scholarships and just give the players contracts. Problem solved. Next.
Quote from: Viper on September 03, 2024, 09:55:14 PM
you've misunderstood. I've been consistent in my preference that collegiate sports remain on a level separate from the 'professional' game.
Take the scholly. Or...take the $. You can play college ball taking the $. My acquiescence to those that will say...'but they've always been paid. Now it's legal'. Yes, amateurism is dead. (Well, except for MU82's posts. Jesus loves you, '82)
Take the one that got away, Kon... gets what, $500k per from Duke? Kon, take the $. It's the smart play. Leave the scholly for, say, Little Rico. Little Rico, you got a $10 handshake? Take the scholly, the tutors, training table, Duke swag etc etc. (yes, Kon gets the tutors, training table etc too)
Choices. Beautiful. Both play college ball. Kon makes large $...as much as possible I hope. Awesome! You'll cover your tuition while here, then off to the pro's in a year or two. Billy? No $ kiddo...but the 'marketplace' dictates this. However...Full ride! No debt. You'll make connections from being on the team, maybe run AutoZone or Krogers in a few years, possibly making more $ than Kon!!
A marketplace with options. Perfect.
Or, do what we're doing now. Everyone gets a scholly, and bag, and 'college' ball is a less talented gleague with 'academic obligations' because, after all, we are here for a degree. My take. I get it, you all disagree. Next.
That would be a lot of money shuffling just to end up in the same place we currently are.
Quote from: Viper on September 03, 2024, 09:55:14 PM
you've misunderstood. I've been consistent in my preference that collegiate sports remain on a level separate from the 'professional' game.
Take the scholly. Or...take the $. You can play college ball taking the $. My acquiescence to those that will say...'but they've always been paid. Now it's legal'. Yes, amateurism is dead. (Well, except for MU82's posts. Jesus loves you, '82)
Take the one that got away, Kon... gets what, $500k per from Duke? Kon, take the $. It's the smart play. Leave the scholly for, say, Little Rico. Little Rico, you got a $10 handshake? Take the scholly, the tutors, training table, Duke swag etc etc. (yes, Kon gets the tutors, training table etc too)
Choices. Beautiful. Both play college ball. Kon makes large $...as much as possible I hope. Awesome! You'll cover your tuition while here, then off to the pro's in a year or two. Billy? No $ kiddo...but the 'marketplace' dictates this. However...Full ride! No debt. You'll make connections from being on the team, maybe run AutoZone or Krogers in a few years, possibly making more $ than Kon!!
A marketplace with options. Perfect.
Or, do what we're doing now. Everyone gets a scholly, and bag, and 'college' ball is a less talented gleague with 'academic obligations' because, after all, we are here for a degree. My take. I get it, you all disagree. Next.
I know you have been consistent in your point, but I just don't understand WHY this is an issue.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 04, 2024, 06:41:29 AM
Fine. Get rid of scholarships and just give the players contracts. Problem solved. Next.
Which would be more expensive for the schools. The marginal costs related to a scholarship are significantly less than the value of that scholarship to the student athlete.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 03, 2024, 11:24:41 PM
So what does this accomplish other than screw over private schools like Marquette?
"Hey Kam, we got you a $100K for the upcoming season but you're going to have to pay us $45K for tuition. Oh, Tennessee will give you $100K and you only need to pay $5K for tuition? Yeah that sounds like a better deal. Yeah I know we used to be able to offer you both but some people got grumpy about it. I mean can't you play for 'your school, your teammates, classmates, fans, rivalries, or whatever'? Oh, you were already doing that because they are not mutually exclusive options? Oh and you come from a low-income family so we're asking you to choose between a better life for your family and making some fans you've never met feel all warm and fuzzy about your commitment to their favorite college basketball team? Yeah that doesn't sound like a difficult choice. But Kam, you got to understand, these guys really miss a time when the three-pointer didn't exist and dunking was illegal. It would be such a thrill for them. Whats that? Well yeah all those players were getting paid under the table but these guys like to pretend they weren't. And I know that they wax poetic about Al Maguire looking in Chones' fridge and telling him to go pro, but you should just suck it up and play for less than what the marketplace has determined you are worth. Oh you're actually calling me from Knoxville? You already told them you would be transferring? Cool cool cool cool."
I hope you hold yourself to these same standards. You better be working for the same company that gave you your first professional job and regularly turn down raises and bonuses because you work for the name on the front of your work polo, not for contracts. Of course you don't, because that would be stupid. But my guess is that you take tremendous pride in your work even though you're also accepting as much money as your company is willing to give.
talk about self righteous...you go off on a personal preference of maintaining the amateur status of college athletics. WTH? It's as simple as that, a preference of maintaining the amateur status of collegiate athletics.
If you attend the open practice on 10/05, we can discuss. I'll wear a giant name tag so as easy to find.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 04, 2024, 06:41:29 AM
Fine. Get rid of scholarships and just give the players contracts. Problem solved. Next.
I speak for the many...thx for offering nothing, again.
Enjoy your day in the closet.
What's so great about amateur athletics? Especially when you have schools making multi-million dollars and paying coaches seven figure contracts. Why can't the players share in that revenue since, you know, they are the ones actually PLAYING the games. They are the ones mostly responsible for GENERATING that revenue.
Amateurism is a scam that the Olympics thankfully got rid of over THIRTY years ago. The fact that it took this long for the NCAA to do the same is pretty absurd.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 03, 2024, 11:24:41 PM
So what does this accomplish other than screw over private schools like Marquette?
"Hey Kam, we got you a $100K for the upcoming season but you're going to have to pay us $45K for tuition. Oh, Tennessee will give you $100K and you only need to pay $5K for tuition? Yeah that sounds like a better deal. Yeah I know we used to be able to offer you both but some people got grumpy about it. I mean can't you play for 'your school, your teammates, classmates, fans, rivalries, or whatever'? Oh, you were already doing that because they are not mutually exclusive options? Oh and you come from a low-income family so we're asking you to choose between a better life for your family and making some fans you've never met feel all warm and fuzzy about your commitment to their favorite college basketball team? Yeah that doesn't sound like a difficult choice. But Kam, you got to understand, these guys really miss a time when the three-pointer didn't exist and dunking was illegal. It would be such a thrill for them. Whats that? Well yeah all those players were getting paid under the table but these guys like to pretend they weren't. And I know that they wax poetic about Al Maguire looking in Chones' fridge and telling him to go pro, but you should just suck it up and play for less than what the marketplace has determined you are worth. Oh you're actually calling me from Knoxville? You already told them you would be transferring? Cool cool cool cool."
I hope you hold yourself to these same standards. You better be working for the same company that gave you your first professional job and regularly turn down raises and bonuses because you work for the name on the front of your work polo, not for contracts. Of course you don't, because that would be stupid. But my guess is that you take tremendous pride in your work even though you're also accepting as much money as your company is willing to give.
don't forget the taxes Kam will have to pay on that private school scholarship too. Much like the pros, he will be taxed in every state in which he plays a game too.
Quote from: Viper on September 04, 2024, 08:30:07 AM
I speak for the many...thx for offering nothing, again.
Enjoy your day in the closet.
I offered a solution. Get rid of scholarships. Amateurism is dead. Pine for it all you want. If you think NIL is going away, the transfer portal is going away and players are just going to take a scholarship and shut up and dribble, well, good luck with that.
That isn't a solution that is going to happen.
Quote from: Viper on September 04, 2024, 08:28:41 AM
talk about self righteous...you go off on a personal preference of maintaining the amateur status of college athletics. WTH? It's as simple as that, a preference of maintaining the amateur status of collegiate athletics.
If you attend the open practice on 10/05, we can discuss. I'll wear a giant name tag so as easy to find.
I'm fine discussing it here.
It is your personal preference. But your personal preference is that student athletes be poorer then they would have been, that they lose potentially life changing money for them and their family when many of them come from low income households. And you want them to do this for no other reason than it is your preference. You haven't articulated any benefit it would have for the common good.
I'm not trying to be self righteous, I'm trying to help you understand the potential ramifications of your personal prefrence.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on September 04, 2024, 08:37:54 AM
don't forget the taxes Kam will have to pay on that private school scholarship too. Much like the pros, he will be taxed in every state in which he plays a game too.
Earning $100K and paying taxes on it is still way better than earning nothing tax-free.
A lot of circular arguments. NIL isn't going away, and if that causes some to no longer be fans it sure seems like the sport will survive.
^^^^^^^^
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 04, 2024, 10:33:21 AM
A lot of circular arguments. NIL isn't going away, and if that causes some to no longer be fans it sure seems like the sport will survive.
Correct. If someone no longer wants to be a fan because "shamateurism" is gone, that's fine.
I hate conference realignment and have taken in far less college football over the past dozen years or so. The sport seems fine with my lesser involvement. Always something else out there
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 04, 2024, 08:50:12 AM
I offered a solution. Get rid of scholarships. Amateurism is dead. Pine for it all you want. If you think NIL is going away, the transfer portal is going away and players are just going to take a scholarship and shut up and dribble, well, good luck with that.
That isn't a solution that is going to happen.
could I at least get the shut up & dribble?
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 04, 2024, 09:04:54 AM
I'm fine discussing it here.
It is your personal preference. But your personal preference is that student athletes be poorer then they would have been, that they lose potentially life changing money for them and their family when many of them come from low income households. And you want them to do this for no other reason than it is your preference. You haven't articulated any benefit it would have for the common good.
I'm not trying to be self righteous, I'm trying to help you understand the potential ramifications of your personal prefrence.
side note, I think I graduated with your Dad. Small world...or I'm old? Or both?
https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/as-college-athletics-prepares-for-revenue-sharing-fallout-leaders-wonder-is-a-breakaway-from-the-ncaa-next/
This is any amateurism doesn't exist
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 04, 2024, 11:36:35 AM
https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/as-college-athletics-prepares-for-revenue-sharing-fallout-leaders-wonder-is-a-breakaway-from-the-ncaa-next/
This is any amateurism doesn't exist
I could see football thriving in that scenario,but not basketball. That would just be a version of theG league
Quote from: Pakuni on September 04, 2024, 10:01:32 AM
Earning $100K and paying taxes on it is still way better than earning nothing tax-free.
Actually, these guys do have to pay taxes on the portion of their scholarship that is not tied to tuition, books, etc. The room, board, etc.
is taxed. But I don't disagree with your underlying point.
Quote from: lawdog77 on September 04, 2024, 12:59:00 PM
I could see football thriving in that scenario,but not basketball. That would just be a version of theG league
They should split football from the rest of college sports. I think.
It would be a great opportunity to create something incredibly unique and still compelling.
If the inevitable outcome is the SEC and Big Ten leaving and creating their own world, it would behoove them to bring along the Big XII and ACC, or some zombie version of those two after the ACC dissolves and the Big Ten and SEC pick apart the remnants.
It'll never happen and is a fantasy scenario, but for football, I'd have a Class A and Class B with regulation and promotion. 12 teams from each league in each class, with bottom 3 of A each year being regulated and top 3 of B each year being promoted.
The Big Ten and SEC want the majority of the playoff spots and if the playoff stays at 12, each in theory gets 4 and 8 total between the 2. Is that palatable for them if another league gets a third? I don't know but maybe their TV partners convince them it is.
Everyone has something to play for in this scenario. It would be compelling from an entertainment standpoint as top teams jockey for playoff seeding and conference titles and the bottom half jockey to stay in Class A.
Let's face it, the have nots of these power leagues are always going to be at the bottom. Occasionally, Purdue might challenge for the Big Ten but reality is, they probably aren't.
Of course, University presidents would be appalled at this idea and probably most fans because a lot of the lower programs in these leagues will never sniff a higher level or be regularly competitive. But I think it would be a better product and highly entertaining.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 04, 2024, 01:33:53 PM
They should split football from the rest of college sports. I think.
It would be a great opportunity to create something incredibly unique and still compelling.
If the inevitable outcome is the SEC and Big Ten leaving and creating their own world, it would behoove them to bring along the Big XII and ACC, or some zombie version of those two after the ACC dissolves and the Big Ten and SEC pick apart the remnants. It'll never happen and is a fantasy scenario, but for football, I'd have a Class A and Class B with regulation and promotion.
There are 263 NCAA Division I schools playing football. That Group B wil be a massive collection of teams.
Quote from: DFW HOYA on September 04, 2024, 02:05:48 PM
There are 263 NCAA Division I schools playing football. That Group B wil be a massive collection of teams.
It would be from the Big 10, SEC and whatever zombie league is next in line.
My proposal is 72 teams from those 3 leagues.
I thought about possibly making it tiered beyond that but know the money sharing and likelihood of that ever happening would be even more unlikely than the proposal I made
Quote from: DFW HOYA on September 04, 2024, 02:05:48 PM
There are 263 NCAA Division I schools playing football. That Group B wil be a massive collection of teams.
About half of them are FCS teams, most of which have no interest in playing at a higher level.
Quote from: Pakuni on September 04, 2024, 03:03:39 PM
About half of them are FCS teams, most of which have no interest in playing at a higher level.
Nearly all state-funded schools at the FCS level aspire to FBS, for one reason: it is seen as the ticket to greater enrollment and ultimately, greater state funding.
The Sun Belt Conference is composed of 14 state schools, 13 of which came from from FCS. A school like Appalachian State University in mountainous Boone, NC, now has over 20,000 students and is the sixth largest school in the state, largely from football.
Quote from: DFW HOYA on September 04, 2024, 07:09:37 PM
Nearly all state-funded schools at the FCS level aspire to FBS
I think this is inaccurate. The Big Sky, MVC, OVC, SWAC, MEAC, etc. are all full of public schools with no realistic goals to become FBS schools. There may be some Southland and Southern, but even then they know the chances are completely unrealistic.
Quote from: DFW HOYA on September 04, 2024, 07:09:37 PM
Nearly all state-funded schools at the FCS level aspire to FBS, for one reason: it is seen as the ticket to greater enrollment and ultimately, greater state funding.
No way. You think Western Illinois and Central Connecticut State and Indiana State want to be FBS? Portland State? Morgan State?
QuoteA school like Appalachian State University in mountainous Boone, NC, now has over 20,000 students and is the sixth largest school in the state, largely from football.
Any evidence for this?
I now live in the Boone area and can attest to the number of students at App State. It is north of 20,000. In addition, App State has a 40,000 seat stadium that regularly sells out.
Quote from: wiscwarrior on September 04, 2024, 09:51:20 PM
I now live in the Boone area and can attest to the number of students at App State. It is north of 20,000. In addition, App State has a 40,000 seat stadium that regularly sells out.
Always got the allure of big time college football. Never have gotten the allure of FCS football. It seems as interesting as club football. Is a second tier championship really that worth getting in too as a fan? I'm in trouble if MU gets relegated to a second tier basketball tournament. I will literally have zero interest.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 05, 2024, 04:14:25 AM
Always got the allure of big time college football. Never have gotten the allure of FCS football. It seems as interesting as club football. Is a second tier championship really that worth getting in too as a fan? I'm in trouble if MU gets relegated to a second tier basketball tournament. I will literally have zero interest.
FCS football is awesome. High quality games with large fan support at a lot of these schools. I spent some time in Missoula and they live their Montana football. The Big Sky is full of rivalries that their fans truly get fired up about.
And most have no desire to move up to FBS. It worked out for Boise, but the rest know it would be very difficult.
Quote from: wiscwarrior on September 04, 2024, 09:51:20 PM
I now live in the Boone area and can attest to the number of students at App State. It is north of 20,000. In addition, App State has a 40,000 seat stadium that regularly sells out.
They've done a good job mixing football with other program development to grow as an institution. It helps that the state has grown so much as well.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 05, 2024, 04:51:42 AM
FCS football is awesome. High quality games with large fan support at a lot of these schools. I spent some time in Missoula and they live their Montana football. The Big Sky is full of rivalries that their fans truly get fired up about.
And most have no desire to move up to FBS. It worked out for Boise, but the rest know it would be very difficult.
Football is a religion for many. No doubt.
The atmosphere at App State games is incredible. The students and alums go crazy, and the entire community has bought in. No opponent wants to play in Boone, and not many P4 teams want to play App State anywhere.
My best Charlotte friend in the area is an alum, and he loved seeing the playoffs expanded to 12 teams.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 05, 2024, 04:14:25 AM
Always got the allure of big time college football. Never have gotten the allure of FCS football. It seems as interesting as club football. Is a second tier championship really that worth getting in too as a fan? I'm in trouble if MU gets relegated to a second tier basketball tournament. I will literally have zero interest.
Look man, a lot of places don't have a whole lot going on for entertainment. Football Saturday college atmosphere is fun no matter what. Even if the games don't matter much it is something to do and look forward to. Especially, since the price to enjoy that day is much more reasonable than going to LSU/Alabama.
Personally, I don't care much about college football. I watch less than five games all year. But if someone wants to go downtown to hang out and walk around near Camp Randall for a morning/afternoon/night I will say yes every time. Because fun is fun. I don't need to have a rooting interest in either team to enjoy the atmosphere.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on September 05, 2024, 07:13:10 AM
Look man, a lot of places don't have a whole lot going on for entertainment. Football Saturday college atmosphere is fun no matter what. Even if the games don't matter much it is something to do and look forward to. Especially, since the price to enjoy that day is much more reasonable than going to LSU/Alabama.
Personally, I don't care much about college football. I watch less than five games all year. But if someone wants to go downtown to hang out and walk around near Camp Randall for a morning/afternoon/night I will say yes every time. Because fun is fun. I don't need to have a rooting interest in either team to enjoy the atmosphere.
Agree. I'm no Badgers fan but the atmosphere on game day is a blast. Especially if they lose
Hell, I have been to D3 football games with awesome atmospheres.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 05, 2024, 07:34:07 AM
Agree. I'm no Badgers fan but the atmosphere on game day is a blast. Especially if they lose
I will be at Camp Randall to witness Alabama win in a few weeks. Best atmosphere is the losing one at Camp Randall.
Quote from: MUbiz on September 05, 2024, 07:55:21 AM
I will be at Camp Randall to witness Alabama win in a few weeks. Best atmosphere is the losing one at Camp Randall.
Few weeks? Isn't that just next Saturday?
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 05, 2024, 07:57:06 AM
Few weeks? Isn't that just next Saturday?
Yeah you are right - my timeline is off and the days are blending together because I am currently on vacation.
Just to clarify, App State is an FBS school. The Sun Belt Conference is a G5 conference.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 05, 2024, 07:44:09 AM
Hell, I have been to D3 football games with awesome atmospheres.
I worked for a D2 school for a few years with a dominant football program. The facilities were meh but the atmosphere was electric every home game. Gotta be hard to be a losing D2/D3 program though
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 05, 2024, 08:52:48 AM
I worked for a D2 school for a few years with a dominant football program. The facilities were meh but the atmosphere was electric every home game. Gotta be hard to be a losing D2/D3 program though
I have also been to D3 games with terrible atmosphere. It's the parents and the die-hards.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on September 05, 2024, 07:13:10 AM
Look man, a lot of places don't have a whole lot going on for entertainment. Football Saturday college atmosphere is fun no matter what. Even if the games don't matter much it is something to do and look forward to. Especially, since the price to enjoy that day is much more reasonable than going to LSU/Alabama.
Personally, I don't care much about college football. I watch less than five games all year. But if someone wants to go downtown to hang out and walk around near Camp Randall for a morning/afternoon/night I will say yes every time. Because fun is fun. I don't need to have a rooting interest in either team to enjoy the atmosphere.
Unlike you, I
am a fan of college football. And, I wholeheartedly agree with what you've said. It's fun to be on a college campus on a football Saturday. My youngest daughter goes to a D3 school with a very strong football program. Those games are a blast. My son went to a FCS school and those were also fun. I've been to B10 games, ND games, USAFA, CU, etc. All have been fun. So much so that one of the things my wife and I have discussed is after retirement traveling to attend big rivalry football games. The idea is to take a 4-5 day trip to the area (e.g., Baton Rouge, Tuscaloosa, Norman, Austin, Lincoln, Eugene, Gainesville, etc.) and then go to the game on Saturday. Generally no rooting interest at all. We both think it would be a fun way to experience some parts of the country that we haven't seen.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on September 05, 2024, 11:32:22 AM
Unlike you, I am a fan of college football. And, I wholeheartedly agree with what you've said. It's fun to be on a college campus on a football Saturday. My youngest daughter goes to a D3 school with a very strong football program. Those games are a blast. My son went to a FCS school and those were also fun. I've been to B10 games, ND games, USAFA, CU, etc. All have been fun. So much so that one of the things my wife and I have discussed is after retirement traveling to attend big rivalry football games. The idea is to take a 4-5 day trip to the area (e.g., Baton Rouge, Tuscaloosa, Norman, Austin, Lincoln, Eugene, Gainesville, etc.) and then go to the game on Saturday. Generally no rooting interest at all. We both think it would be a fun way to experience some parts of the country that we haven't seen.
Love this! That sounds awesome......you will be living A DREAM for sure. Basketball road-trips are fun and I'd love to go "on-tour" with a favorite band for a week or two....now I'm not sure I'll ever be able to retire but that is getting to close too the third rail of talking politics :-X
Enjoy your retirement StillAWarrior!
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 05, 2024, 07:34:07 AM
Agree. I'm no Badgers fan but the atmosphere on game day is a blast. Especially if they lose
Same. Went to the Penn State opener 3 years ago (first after COVID). So much energy walking in, reminding me of how much I missed live sports.
Quote from: muwarrior97 on September 05, 2024, 01:19:06 PM
Love this! That sounds awesome......you will be living A DREAM for sure. Basketball road-trips are fun and I'd love to go "on-tour" with a favorite band for a week or two....now I'm not sure I'll ever be able to retire but that is getting to close too the third rail of talking politics :-X
Enjoy your retirement StillAWarrior!
I'm not there yet, but I do think my retirement will involve a lot of sports...and not just college football. I'd like to see MU several times a year, and also attend some of the bigger events (e.g., Kentucky Derby, Daytona 500, Masters, Army-Navy, etc.). Thankfully, my wife is game.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on September 05, 2024, 01:35:58 PM
I'm not there yet, but I do think my retirement will involve a lot of sports...and not just college football. I'd like to see MU several times a year, and also attend some of the bigger events (e.g., Kentucky Derby, Daytona 500, Masters, Army-Navy, etc.). Thankfully, my wife is game.
On that topic: Sporting events to see in person before one dies?
1. Super Bowl
2. NCAA basketball National Championship
3. Indy 500
4. Kentucky Derby
5. Tour de France
6. Wimbledon
7. Worlds Largest Outdoor Cocktail Party
8. World Series Game
What else?
I think the US Open tennis tournament is a great event to attend.
World Cup finals would be one I'd love to attend
Brother LawDog:
Some thoughts on your list:
1. Super Bowl (Been there, had tickets to the Bears/Colts game. $1,200 tickets, sold them for $5,000 for a game where the Bears were blown out and the best highlight from the Bears happened in the first 15 seconds of the game).
2. NCAA basketball National Championship (Only if Marquette is in them)
3. Indy 500 (Did it in 1977. Enjoyable but the event is better on television)
4. Kentucky Derby (Big money to watch horses, no thank you.)
5. Tour de France (Seeing France is worth the trip. Like watching marathon runners. Eeenh, unless you know someone)
6. Wimbledon (PPPLLLLEEEAAASSSEEE... the self-important of British society gather to be, well, self-important.
7. Worlds Largest Outdoor Cocktail Party (Jacksonville's claim to fame. Two "nearby schools" get together, drink themselves silly and watch another Gator slaughter. It's the southern version of the old Marquette Block Parties)
8. World Series Game (Now you're talking. Waiting for the Cardinals to return! May be a long wait!!!!)
Quote from: dgies9156 on September 05, 2024, 02:19:35 PM
Brother LawDog:
Some thoughts on your list:
1. Super Bowl (Been there, had tickets to the Bears/Colts game. $1,200 tickets, sold them for $5,000 for a game where the Bears were blown out and the best highlight from the Bears happened in the first 15 seconds of the game).
2. NCAA basketball National Championship (Only if Marquette is in them)
3. Indy 500 (Did it in 1977. Enjoyable but the event is better on television)
4. Kentucky Derby (Big money to watch horses, no thank you.)
5. Tour de France (Seeing France is worth the trip. Like watching marathon runners. Eeenh, unless you know someone)
6. Wimbledon (PPPLLLLEEEAAASSSEEE... the self-important of British society gather to be, well, self-important.
7. Worlds Largest Outdoor Cocktail Party (Jacksonville's claim to fame. Two "nearby schools" get together, drink themselves silly and watch another Gator slaughter. It's the southern version of the old Marquette Block Parties)
8. World Series Game (Now you're talking. Waiting for the Cardinals to return! May be a long wait!!!!)
The Tour is amazing in person. It's not just standing in one spot and seeing the bikes whiz by you. You map out the tour, and spend a week (or how many days) enjoying the sites, getting to the same town where the riders have a rest day. If you are lucky (and have a bike) you can ride near/with them on their rest day. My wife was an exchange student in France and her host family's village is often near the route. We have been fortunate to go over there several times.
Would love to see the Tour de France. When we were driving through the Dolomites in July and seeing people biking up those narrow winding roads it made me think of some of the stages of the Tour de France.
As if driving there wasn't stressful enough as it was (with narrow lanes that people don't stay in anyway, so you're coming around a blind curve alongside a mountain/cliff and a car is coming at you taking up 1/2 your lane), we got caught driving through a bike race at one point. It was hard enough finding space to pass 1 or 2 bikers at a time. Having to try to pass a big pack of bikers that are tire to tire with each other, taking up your entire lane, while the Italians driving behind you are basically rear ending you to force you to floor it around them was probably the least enjoyable driving experience I've ever had.
Got tickets for Thursday at Oakmont next June.
Quote from: lawdog77 on September 05, 2024, 01:49:12 PM
On that topic: Sporting events to see in person before one dies?
1. Super Bowl
2. NCAA basketball National Championship
3. Indy 500
4. Kentucky Derby
5. Tour de France
6. Wimbledon
7. Worlds Largest Outdoor Cocktail Party
8. World Series Game
What else?
9. The Masters
10. The Ryder Cup (I think I'm going when it returns to USA)
11. FA Cup Final
12. World Cup match
13. Olympics
14. Pretty much any major in tennis or golf
Honestly, I have zero desire to see a Super Bowl in person (I've already been to a NCAA national championship bowl game). Would I go if someone offered me free tickets...well, I guess I would. But aside from that, I'm not interested. And, unless Marquette is involved, I have no desire to see a NCAA basketball championship or final four game. I am not interested in watching basketball in a football stadium. I've bene to a couple WS games, so that box is checked. The others you listed, I would like to see. And the WLOCP is part of the basis for my initial post about attending various college football games.
Quote from: lawdog77 on September 05, 2024, 01:49:12 PM
On that topic: Sporting events to see in person before one dies?
1. Super Bowl
2. NCAA basketball National Championship
3. Indy 500
4. Kentucky Derby
5. Tour de France
6. Wimbledon
7. Worlds Largest Outdoor Cocktail Party
8. World Series Game
What else?
If I'm a neutral, World Cup Final is #1 with a bullet, and by a wide margin. Marquette in the NC game or USA in a WC Final would be by far the two I'd most be invested in as a fan.
I feel like there are a number of Olympic events I would add as well, but it's hard to narrow it to one because there's so much great stuff at the Olympics, and much of it is just athlete dependent that year. You could single out a swimming event, but I think the draw is more Phelps/Ledecky/etc. I would probably say the 100M final, but it's over so quick. Olympic basketball, hockey, women's volleyball, and soccer would all be amazing, especially if your team was in the final.
No Super Bowl, even if Detroit goes.
NCAA final if MU is there.
Going to the US Open next summer.
Augusta?
British Open?
Quote from: Goose on September 05, 2024, 01:56:17 PM
I think the US Open tennis tournament is a great event to attend.
I'll vouch for this. Went for the first time last week with my son and we had a great time.
Quote from: lawdog77 on September 05, 2024, 02:34:57 PM
The Tour is amazing in person. It's not just standing in one spot and seeing the bikes whiz by you. You map out the tour, and spend a week (or how many days) enjoying the sites, getting to the same town where the riders have a rest day. If you are lucky (and have a bike) you can ride near/with them on their rest day. My wife was an exchange student in France and her host family's village is often near the route. We have been fortunate to go over there several times.
I'd love to go to the Tour. One of the top riders is from my home town and I know some of his relatives (one was in my high school class). It would be great to see him race. He had to sit out the Tour this year because of COVID.
Really liked going to Wimbledon, amazing event. Better than the Super Bowl, cooler, and I worked for NFL films for both Packer games in the 90's. Meeting Steve Sabol was pretty nice.
Quote from: Goose on September 05, 2024, 01:56:17 PM
I think the US Open tennis tournament is a great event to attend.
It is, especially the first weekend when there are a bunch of competitive matches you can bounce around to. I saw three five set matches involving three guys who were eventual grand slam champs, as well as Serena and Rafa in the main stadium on the first Saturday. The day session didn't end until 9:30 pm.
1. Super Bowl (A lot of people I know have been to them and said they are pretty bland since most of the people there don't have much of a rooting interest. If the Packers were in and the seats were reasonable? Sure.)
2. NCAA basketball National Championship (Only if Marquette is there and the seats are decent.)
3. Indy 500 (Been offered...not interested)
4. Kentucky Derby (Ditto to Indy)
5. Tour de France (Sounds fun, but wouldn't be a destination)
6. Wimbledon (No thanks.)
7. Worlds Largest Outdoor Cocktail Party (I would much rather be at a big SEC night game on campus.)
8. World Series Game (If the Brewers are in sure. I was around Wrigley when the Cubs made the series and that was fun.)
What else?
Unless I have a rooting interest, I am not really into going into sporting events just to say I have been there.
If you never been there, Wimbleton,
Its really a fun time in a classic iconic venue. Your really right on top of the players, no bad seats
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 05, 2024, 03:20:08 PM
1. Super Bowl (A lot of people I know have been to them and said they are pretty bland since most of the people there don't have much of a rooting interest. If the Packers were in and the seats were reasonable? Sure.)
2. NCAA basketball National Championship (Only if Marquette is there and the seats are decent.)
3. Indy 500 (Been offered...not interested)
4. Kentucky Derby (Ditto to Indy)
5. Tour de France (Sounds fun, but wouldn't be a destination)
6. Wimbledon (No thanks.)
7. Worlds Largest Outdoor Cocktail Party (I would much rather be at a big SEC night game on campus.)
8. World Series Game (If the Brewers are in sure. I was around Wrigley when the Cubs made the series and that was fun.)
What else?
Unless I have a rooting interest, I am not really into going into sporting events just to say I have been there.
(https://media.tenor.com/ItBoaL0-h_cAAAAM/debbie-downer-nbc.gif)
But seriously, to each his own.
The SuperBowl, I was lucky to be in a suite to watch Colts/Saints. I have some Chicoesque stories fabout the celebrities I saw.
Have standing suite tickets for the 500, I would not want to be in genpop
Was at the Derby in the infield in my twenties, a must see in my opinion for the youngsters
You're telling me, if Marquette was in the Final game, you would only go if the seats were decent? I call BS on that.
There's a ton of historic rivalries that I wouldn't mind seeing as a neutral. Duke UNC, Mich OSt, Iron Bowl, El Classico, Der Klassiker, Red Sox Yankees, New Zealand South Africa Rugby etc.
As far as "Events", don't think there's anything close to a World Cup Final. US Open sounds fun, and any European Cup final would also be pretty cool to experience in person.
Quote from: lawdog77 on September 05, 2024, 03:30:27 PM
You're telling me, if Marquette was in the Final game, you would only go if the seats were decent? I call BS on that.
Oh no doubt on that. I'm not going if I have to sit in the corner of the upper deck of a football stadium somewhere.
Been to every event listed. Many good choices
Would recommend getting to a North London derby (or any derby) if you can. Unbelievable experience.
MU in another national championship or Vikings Super Bowl would be amazing.
But favorite so far — and will be tough to beat - was game 7 of the 87 World Series.
I am sure that was awesome.
Game 6 of the 2021 NBA Finals was by far the best event I've ever been to.
The 2003 national championship game was awesome, even after still hurting from Kansas smoking us and sitting in the nosebleeds of a football stadium.
A World Series game would be amazing. Game 6 of the 2018 NLCS was awesome, as was T Plush tickling it up the middle. MLB playoff games are awesome.
Stanley Cup clincher would be amazing, and I'm not even a hockey fan. Those atmospheres look incredible.
TV does such a good job that unless I have a rooting interest or the event is part of a larger trip (Wimbledon, Tour de France, World Cup) I have little interest.
1. By a mile - another NCAA championship game for Marquette - it's been 47 years!
2. White Sox World Series game
3. Not much
My brother and his wife went to Wimbledon this year and LOVED it. They'd been to several US and French Opens and thought this trip was the best. I'm not much of a tennis fan, though.
I had a chance to see USC at ND a few yrs ago. Regret not going, although SC lost. (I'm a USC football guy) But, enjoy the rivalry. It's a beautiful hate between them. Iron Bowl is a good one too.
HOWEVER...Road America Indycar weekend. My summer tradition. Stand 10' off the track w/cars at full song out of turn 11 at 190? Yes please...and give me more!
(love the Indy500 too)
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 05, 2024, 03:38:21 PM
Oh no doubt on that. I'm not going if I have to sit in the corner of the upper deck of a football stadium somewhere.
Would you go to the town it is in and enjoy pre-game, then watch it in a bar, or would you just stay at home?
Quote from: lawdog77 on September 05, 2024, 08:40:28 PM
Would you go to the town it is in and enjoy pre-game, then watch it in a bar, or would you just stay at home?
I'd probably just stay home.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 05, 2024, 07:57:29 PM
TV does such a good job that unless I have a rooting interest or the event is part of a larger trip (Wimbledon, Tour de France, World Cup) I have little interest.
1. By a mile - another NCAA championship game for Marquette - it's been 47 years!
2. White Sox World Series game
3. Not much
My brother and his wife went to Wimbledon this year and LOVED it. They'd been to several US and French Opens and thought this trip was the best. I'm not much of a tennis fan, though.
I like your list Lenny. Short but identical to my top two. Been to many others people have listed (derby, 500, big college football games, major golf). Really want those two to come around again. Especially before the Sox move to Nashville.
If you are a golf fan and haven't been to the Masters, you should find a way to go. Even a practice round is worth going to, just to walk the course. Walking Augusta National is on my VERY short list of experiences that I expected to be great but ended up being much better than I expected.
Otherwise, obviously lots of individual preferences on lists folks presented - which was the whole idea of lawdog's question.
One of my favorite things about sports is that one never knows when a "regular" event is going to turn out to be a "I was there!" event.
For example, I obviously had no idea that Mark Buehrle was going to pitch a perfect game when I went to Whatever Sox Park Was Called that day in July 2009. To have that unfold in front of us, capped by one of the most sensational catches anybody has ever seen, made it an event those of us who were there will always remember.
In retirement, the sporting events I've attended more of have been Marquette games, including road games and tournament games. It's been especially fun to meet up on the road with my MU buddies. I've loved it, and plan to do more.
Personally, I'd take any regular-season Marquette game over any quality Big East rival over any of the big sporting events folks have listed ... especially if you could promise me that our heroes would win!
Spring break 2019, staying with my daughter halfway between Baltimore and DC. On Sunday, we took the metro in and are watching the pandas cavort at the national zoo when my buddy calls. We were supposed to meet him for dinner to watch the MSU-Duke elite 8 game. He is sick. Well, crud. Waitaminute......
That game was being played in DC right above a metro station. Stubhub checked, 4 nosebleed seats procured. Izzo vs K. Zion's last game in college. Amazing atmosphere. The place wasn't quite full, but full enough. I learned Duke fans thought K couldn't coach and that 9 fouls called against Duke in an entire game was proof the refs were out to get them. My 12 year old learned all kinds of new words and combinations.
A great experience, due to spontaneity, doing it with my family, and the quality of the game. Go to a football stadium to watch a game from an upper corner? Nah. Did that 40+ years ago for the Pistons at the Silverdome. There is such a thing as too far away from the action.
Masters would be fun. I will have to settle for Oakmont.
Quote from: tower912 on September 06, 2024, 08:41:38 AM
Spring break 2019, staying with my daughter halfway between Baltimore and DC. On Sunday, we took the metro in and are watching the pandas cavort at the national zoo when my buddy calls. We were supposed to meet him for dinner to watch the MSU-Duke elite 8 game. He is sick. Well, crud. Waitaminute......
That game was being played in DC right above a metro station. Stubhub checked, 4 nosebleed seats procured. Izzo vs K. Zion's last game in college. Amazing atmosphere. The place wasn't quite full, but full enough. I learned Duke fans thought K couldn't coach and that 9 fouls called against Duke in an entire game was proof the refs were out to get them. My 12 year old learned all kinds of new words and combinations.
A great experience, due to spontaneity, doing it with my family, and the quality of the game. Go to a football stadium to watch a game from an upper corner? Nah. Did that 40+ years ago for the Pistons at the Silverdome. There is such a thing as too far away from the action.
Masters would be fun. I will have to settle for Oakmont.
Don't do the Masters unless you're in the corporate suite with Herm
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 06, 2024, 08:42:54 AM
Don't do the Masters unless you're in the corporate suite with Herm
Really? I heard it just name drops the whole time and keeps updating everyone on obscure reserves on the Celtics bench.
My sports bucket list includes, in no order:
- The Masters (any day, practice rounds included, don't care. Still heartbroken every July when the raffle rejection email comes out)
- Third Saturday in October or Iron Bowl in Tuscaloosa
- Night Race at Bristol Motor Speedway
- Kentucky Derby in the Grandstands
- Cubs World Series game
- F4/NC MU game
- Going to a baseball game in all 30 MLB ballparks
An aside, I cannot recommend a day ballgame at PNC Park in Pittsburgh more highly. It's really an absolute gem of a ballpark, might be the best I've been to.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 06, 2024, 08:42:54 AM
Don't do the Masters unless you're in the corporate suite with Herm
I agree with this analysis.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 06, 2024, 08:42:54 AM
Don't do the Masters unless you're in the corporate suite with Herm
Any chance we can get an excellent preview of what it's like? But make sure any article is at least 6 weeks old and already posted, preferably on the same thread.
Quote from: tower912 on September 06, 2024, 08:41:38 AM
Go to a football stadium to watch a game from an upper corner? Nah. Did that 40+ years ago for the Pistons at the Silverdome. There is such a thing as too far away from the action.
I couldn't agree with this more. Unless there's an unforgettable atmosphere at the game, or the game is something that you would never want to miss out on being there in person, anything played in a football stadium is far superior on TV.
When I attended MU, a bunch of us who had Friday's off during college football season would pick a Big10 or SEC stadium and road trip to it for a Saturday game. We made it as far as Tallahassee and Gainesville. We ended up averaging 7 games a year throughout college. Great times looking back on it.
Quote from: MUbiz on September 06, 2024, 10:44:16 AM
When I attended MU, a bunch of us who had Friday's off during college football season would pick a Big10 or SEC stadium and road trip to it for a Saturday game. We made it as far as Tallahassee and Gainesville. We ended up averaging 7 games a year throughout college. Great times looking back on it.
Upon retirement, I'm spending a fall transversing SEC stadiums
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 06, 2024, 11:17:36 AM
Upon retirement, I'm spending a fall transversing SEC stadiums
> transversing
sounds woke
Poetry about transitioning individuals.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on September 06, 2024, 11:25:36 AM
> transversing
sounds woke
Hey pal, I'm an evangelical Christian
Quote from: tower912 on September 06, 2024, 11:27:07 AM
Poetry about transitioning individuals.
There once was a dude named Stan
Who no longer felt like a man
Felt he had to come clean
So he chopped off his ween
And now JD Vance want him banned
On my bingo card, I had Jay Bee with the limerick. Damn.
An unhappy girly man rolled
The dice and it proved to be bold
His balls were removed
And he found a new groove
In the pool where he took home a gold
Funny enough, a friend of mine sent me this trailer today. Looks awesome. I hope she gets the chance to play in a women's adult rec basketball league if she desires to do so. We should be more accepting in this world. If changing gender makes someone happy, I don't get why that's a problem for other people. It's harming nobody.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRZ1ELeGepo&t=3s
Limericks are a fun way to insult already vulnerable people.
Can we do disabled people next?
Quote from: MU82 on September 06, 2024, 02:09:55 PM
Limericks are a fun way to insult already vulnerable people.
Can we do disabled people next?
I would, but its hard to fit "retired sports writer" into a limerick.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 06, 2024, 01:57:14 PM
Funny enough, a friend of mine sent me this trailer today. Looks awesome. I hope she gets the chance to play in a women's adult rec basketball league if she desires to do so. We should be more accepting in this world. If changing gender makes someone happy, I don't get why that's a problem for other people. It's harming nobody.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRZ1ELeGepo&t=3s
harming nobody? In this fallen world, is universal acceptance always the best pathway? maybe reference Jeremiah 1:5. But yeah, chick w/diick seems to be a norm, unfortunately
Quote from: Viper on September 06, 2024, 02:55:51 PM
harming nobody? In this fallen world, is universal acceptance always the best pathway? maybe reference Jeremiah 1:5. But yeah, chick w/diick seems to be a norm, unfortunately
LOL...the first chapter of Jeremiah? Do you even understand the historical context of the book and the verse you list?
Quote from: MU82 on September 06, 2024, 02:09:55 PM
Limericks are a fun way to insult already vulnerable people.
Can we do disabled people next?
God forbid, no! Let's make any joke with a punchline a hate crime!
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 06, 2024, 02:58:39 PM
LOL...the first chapter of Jeremiah? Do you even understand the historical context of the book and the verse you list?
It's on billboards!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 06, 2024, 03:00:19 PM
God forbid, no! Let's make any joke with a punchline a hate crime!
Yeah, but punching down on jokes is for losers
Gotta bring out the OG OT, out of context no less, when "love your neighbor as yourself" is too soft.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 06, 2024, 03:00:19 PM
God forbid, no! Let's make any joke with a punchline a hate crime!
bad Lenny, bad. 82 is triggered. Your punishment? Write DEI 100x's with your off hand while doing Bud Light beer bongs.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 06, 2024, 02:12:54 PM
I would, but its hard to fit "retired sports writer" into a limerick.
Challenge accepted
A retired sports writer once claimed,
"Insulting trans athletes is lame,
But what's even worse
To put into verse
Is mocking the sick and the lame."
Quote from: StillAWarrior on September 06, 2024, 03:08:51 PM
Challenge accepted
A retired sports writer once claimed,
"Insulting trans athletes is lame,
But what's even worse
To put into verse
Is mocking the sick and the lame."
Nice! I laughed.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on September 06, 2024, 03:08:51 PM
Challenge accepted
A retired sports writer once claimed,
"Insulting trans athletes is lame,
But what's even worse
To put into verse
Is mocking the sick and the lame."
This is great.
Quote from: Viper on September 06, 2024, 02:55:51 PM
harming nobody? In this fallen world, is universal acceptance always the best pathway? maybe reference Jeremiah 1:5. But yeah, chick w/diick seems to be a norm, unfortunately
Who does a "chick w/diick" harm?
Quote from: Viper on September 06, 2024, 03:07:38 PM
bad Lenny, bad. 82 is triggered. Your punishment? Write DEI 100x's with your off hand while doing Bud Light beer bongs.
I will have to come out of my hiatus early for this, being the victim of racism in US specially during 2016-2020, will say Viper is not only lost but he is a lost soul who like most extreme christians (Isis like w/o the beheadings, but might get there) have no effing knowledge of the bible. Probably have no idea of the major and distorted translation of new testament from Greek to English....was to serve Europe kings....
Quote from: Newsdreams on September 06, 2024, 04:04:56 PM
like most extreme christians (Isis like w/o the beheadings, but might get there)
OMfreakinG. Insane.
There once was a Marquette fan
Who secretly enjoyed the touch of a man
But to himself he would posit
"I must stay in the closet"
So he wrote a homophobic rant
Quote from: lawdog77 on September 05, 2024, 01:49:12 PM
On that topic: Sporting events to see in person before one dies?
1. Super Bowl
2. NCAA basketball National Championship
3. Indy 500
4. Kentucky Derby
5. Tour de France
6. Wimbledon
7. Worlds Largest Outdoor Cocktail Party
8. World Series Game
What else?
1. Super Bowl. Been many times. It is essentially the NFL Convention.
Saw Packers win with Favre in New Orleans. Best part of that was meeting Willie Davis in the bar at our Hotel. Saw Eli and the Giants Beat Brady in Indy. Saw Russel Wilson clobber Peyton in The Meadowlands. Saw Seattle give the game away to Brady in Phoenix. Saw Peyton win his second against Panthers in Santa Clara. Super Bowl party had some great bands that year.
2. Earvin Johnson versus Larry Bird NCAA Championship in 79
3. Multiple Indy 500s. When I went they had Gomer Pyle singing Back Home Again in Indiana. It is an event worth doing once as Bucket list item.
4. Kentucky Derby- My wife had customers there I went as spouse. We still have all the Hats she used to wear in storage.
5. Tour De France- Will probably figure out a European Trip to incorporate this sometime low on priority list.
6. Wimbledon- Saw Sampras win at peak of his domination
7. Florida Georgia Game- Not in the same league as any of the above.
8. World Series-68 Tigers was great.
9. US Open Golf - Been many times, always a great event for Golf fans.
10. Masters- Practice Rounds are best . Been in the old days before all the corporate influence, saw Freddy Couples win.
12. PGA Championship- Been many times. Watching Davis Love win when the Rainbow came out at Winged Foot was awesome.
13. British Open- Best of all Golf Majors. Paired playing a round at Prestwick.
14. US Open Tennis Many times - Prefer watching the Woman battle it out. Recommend for Tennis fans to go in Early rounds, can walk around and see many players close up on the non featured courts.
15. Olympics- Boxing , Swimming, Tennis, Ping Pong . Not really a great experience.
16. Rose Bowl- Enjoyed multiple times definitely worth doing
Quote from: Newsdreams on September 06, 2024, 04:04:56 PM
I will have to come out of my hiatus early for this, being the victim of racism in US specially during 2016-2020, will say Viper is not only lost but he is a lost soul who like most extreme christians (Isis like w/o the beheadings, but might get there) have no effing knowledge of the bible. Probably have no idea of the major and distorted translation of new testament from Greek to English....was to serve Europe kings....
keep Dreaming, Newsie
Quote from: Viper on September 06, 2024, 06:08:53 PM
keep Dreaming, Newsie
You're the one quoting the Bible out of context.
Quote from: Herman Cain on September 06, 2024, 06:07:22 PM
1. Super Bowl. Been many times. It is essentially the NFL Convention.
Saw Packers win with Favre in New Orleans. Best part of that was meeting Willie Davis in the bar at our Hotel. Saw Eli and the Giants Beat Brady in Indy. Saw Russel Wilson clobber Peyton in The Meadowlands. Saw Seattle give the game away to Brady in Phoenix. Saw Peyton win his second against Panthers in Santa Clara. Super Bowl party had some great bands that year.
2. Earvin Johnson versus Larry Bird NCAA Championship in 79
3. Multiple Indy 500s. When I went they had Gomer Pyle singing Back Home Again in Indiana. It is an event worth doing once as Bucket list item.
4. Kentucky Derby- My wife had customers there I went as spouse. We still have all the Hats she used to wear in storage.
5. Tour De France- Will probably figure out a European Trip to incorporate this sometime low on priority list.
6. Wimbledon- Saw Sampras win at peak of his domination
7. Florida Georgia Game- Not in the same league as any of the above.
8. World Series-68 Tigers was great.
9. US Open Golf - Been many times, always a great event for Golf fans.
10. Masters- Practice Rounds are best . Been in the old days before all the corporate influence, saw Freddy Couples win.
12. PGA Championship- Been many times. Watching Davis Love win when the Rainbow came out at Winged Foot was awesome.
13. British Open- Best of all Golf Majors. Paired playing a round at Prestwick.
14. US Open Tennis Many times - Prefer watching the Woman battle it out. Recommend for Tennis fans to go in Early rounds, can walk around and see many players close up on the non featured courts.
15. Olympics- Boxing , Swimming, Tennis, Ping Pong . Not really a great experience.
16. Rose Bowl- Enjoyed multiple times definitely worth doing
You have the absolute coolest life ever.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 06, 2024, 06:56:35 PM
You have the absolute coolest life ever.
I live a great fake life too!
Quote from: wadesworld on September 06, 2024, 06:56:35 PM
You have the absolute coolest life ever.
He's never played Augusta or caught passes from Joe Montana. I've done that
Who's the retired sports writer?
Quote from: Pakuni on September 06, 2024, 05:17:22 PM
There once was a Marquette fan
Who secretly enjoyed the touch of a man
But to himself he would posit
"I must stay in the closet"
So he wrote a homophobic rant
Just an fyi - limericks follow rhyming patterns. The last word in line 5 is supposed to rhyme with the last word in lines 1 and 2. Rant doesn't qualify here. Unfunny and improper is a poor combination.
Quote from: Viper on September 06, 2024, 02:55:51 PM
maybe reference Jeremiah 1:5. But yeah, chick w/diick seems to be a norm, unfortunately
The most common interpretation of Jeremiah 1:5 is support for predestination. So if true that would mean that trans people are part of God's plan.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 06, 2024, 09:35:35 PM
Just an fyi - limericks follow rhyming patterns. The last word in line 5 is supposed to rhyme with the last word in lines 1 and 2. Rant doesn't qualify here. Unfunny and improper is a poor combination.
Did you think it was about you?
Huh.
Quote from: Pakuni on September 06, 2024, 10:00:03 PM
Did you think it was about you?
Huh.
Of course not. Only that it was clumsy and didn't follow rules for limericks. How come?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 06, 2024, 10:07:33 PM
Of course not. Only that it was clumsy and did follow rules for limericks. How come?
"Rules for limericks..."
You're on a basketball message board citing rules for limericks like it's a parliamentary point of order.
Go yell at a cloud. .
Quote from: StillAWarrior on September 06, 2024, 03:08:51 PM
Challenge accepted
A retired sports writer once claimed,
"Insulting trans athletes is lame,
But what's even worse
To put into verse
Is mocking the sick and the lame."
Superb. You won Scoop today.
Quote from: MU82 on September 06, 2024, 10:21:32 PM
Superb. You won Scoop today.
Why would you saddle him with that "prize?"
Quote from: Herman Cain link=topic=66326.msg1675220#msg1675220 date=1725664042
8. World Series-68 Tigers was great.
/quote]
NO IT WASNT.
It was downright miserable!
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 06, 2024, 09:52:32 PM
The most common interpretation of Jeremiah 1:5 is support for predestination. So if true that would mean that trans people are part of God's plan.
I prefer to right turn back to hoops...but I'll ask this...Is trans part of God's plan or a product of this imperfect world? Respectfully curious of your reply.
Quote from: Viper on September 07, 2024, 09:58:12 AM
I prefer to right turn back to hoops...but I'll ask this...Is trans part of God's plan or a product of this imperfect world? Respectfully curious of your reply.
You seem to have a good handle on the Scripture. Why don't you tell us?
Also, why have you dodged my question? Who is a "chick w/diick" harming?
Quote from: Viper on September 07, 2024, 09:58:12 AM
I prefer to right turn back to hoops...but I'll ask this...Is trans part of God's plan or a product of this imperfect world? Respectfully curious of your reply.
Even if trans is not part of God's plan, do you think discrimination against them is?
Remember this great dunk?
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/oiporQVLS2K5KoVbpk/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952zwhvozcnabhjm02qr3f5tjmtr4qar4d436z87h0l&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 07, 2024, 10:47:28 AM
Even if trans is not part of God's plan, do you think discrimination against them is?
no, I don't think discrimination is acceptable, in any form against any individual or group. If I implied that, my error. Disagreement with is not discrimination. Agree?
Quote from: wadesworld on September 07, 2024, 10:33:55 AM
You seem to have a good handle on the Scripture. Why don't you tell us?
Also, why have you dodged my question? Who is a "chick w/diick" harming?
not dodging, just disinterested at this point in explaining. Let's go back to hoops.
Quote from: Viper on September 07, 2024, 11:27:29 AM
not dodging, just disinterested at this point in explaining. Let's go back to hoops.
You kept discussing the topic for multiple posts, but dodged answering this question.
And then dodged it again.
Because it harms nobody.
Quote from: Viper on September 07, 2024, 09:58:12 AM
I prefer to right turn back to hoops...but I'll ask this...Is trans part of God's plan or a product of this imperfect world? Respectfully curious of your reply.
This feels like an eventual thread ender, and I'm not religious, but if you believe in God, it is inconsistent not to believe that trans is not part of their plan.
First, you would have to believe that your god created those individuals. In doing so, they imbued those individuals with the belief that their gender identity did not match their assigned sex at birth. Further, if you believe this god created the world and mankind, then they included in that creation the mental acuity in humanity to allow trans surgeries & the scientific laws that have allowed not just trans identification but surgery to match that identity.
Unless you believe your god is so impotent that his creation has been corrupted and they either no longer care or don't have the power to influence his creation.
Ultimately, either trans people are a part of your god's plan and should be embraced and empowered as children of said god, or that god is so weak that I'm not sure why anyone would bother worshipping them.
I suppose there are other possibilities; the devil also exists and is simply more powerful than your god, or your god once had influence but abandoned a failed creation, but I'm not sure how any of those would make someone feel better about their religion.
Quote from: dgies9156 on September 07, 2024, 08:52:28 AM
[quote author=Herman Cain link=topic=66326.msg1675220#msg1675220 date=1725664042
8. World Series-68 Tigers was great.
NO IT WASNT.
It was downright miserable!
Brother dgies9156:
If it alleviates your pain, I will let you know the game I attended was Game 4 . Lou Brock opened up the game with a 440 Foot Homer to Dead Center at Tiger Stadium off Denny McClain and The Red Birds won 10-1
Quote from: brewcity77 on September 07, 2024, 12:47:44 PM
This feels like an eventual thread ender, and I'm not religious, but if you believe in God, it is inconsistent not to believe that trans is not part of their plan.
First, you would have to believe that your god created those individuals. In doing so, they imbued those individuals with the belief that their gender identity did not match their assigned sex at birth. Further, if you believe this god created the world and mankind, then they included in that creation the mental acuity in humanity to allow trans surgeries & the scientific laws that have allowed not just trans identification but surgery to match that identity.
Unless you believe your god is so impotent that his creation has been corrupted and they either no longer care or don't have the power to influence his creation.
Ultimately, either trans people are a part of your god's plan and should be embraced and empowered as children of said god, or that god is so weak that I'm not sure why anyone would bother worshipping them.
I suppose there are other possibilities; the devil also exists and is simply more powerful than your god, or your god once had influence but abandoned a failed creation, but I'm not sure how any of those would make someone feel better about their religion.
Nailed it.
Quote from: MU82 on September 07, 2024, 03:57:35 PM
Nailed it.
He only forgot that Gods too busy helping Marquette win a Natty
Quote from: Herman Cain on September 07, 2024, 02:40:22 PM
Brother dgies9156:
If it alleviates your pain, I will let you know the game I attended was Game 4 . Lou Brock opened up the game with a 440 Foot Homer to Dead Center at Tiger Stadium off Denny McClain and The Red Birds won 10-1
Brother Herm:
That was a tough World Series. As a youngster, I took a lot of crap after the Cardinals choked.
That said, that Tiger team was incredible. Lolich outpitched Gibson in game 7 and Detroit was just better.
That was a great Cardinal team but an even greater Tiger team.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 06, 2024, 08:27:19 PM
Rocket.
pretty lame sully but i must have been on your mind and you've been straining to find someplace to insert me
shows you really care...how sweet
Quote from: wadesworld on September 07, 2024, 12:05:59 PM
You kept discussing the topic for multiple posts, but dodged answering this question.
And then dodged it again.
Because it harms nobody.
just sent you a PM rather than risk a lock here.
Quote from: Viper on September 08, 2024, 09:26:41 AM
Erin Andrews says hey
didn't he show some misogyny at her?
Quote from: Viper on September 07, 2024, 11:26:08 AM
no, I don't think discrimination is acceptable, in any form against any individual or group. If I implied that, my error. Disagreement with is not discrimination. Agree?
Kinda? I mean you can disagree that's it's a route you would, take but still believe in their right to take it.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on September 08, 2024, 10:20:05 AM
didn't he show some misogyny at her?
When you're a star, they just let you
Quote from: wadesworld on September 06, 2024, 01:57:14 PM
Funny enough, a friend of mine sent me this trailer today. Looks awesome. I hope she gets the chance to play in a women's adult rec basketball league if she desires to do so. We should be more accepting in this world. If changing gender makes someone happy, I don't get why that's a problem for other people. It's harming nobody.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRZ1ELeGepo&t=3s
Weird, aina?
Quote from: wadesworld on September 06, 2024, 04:00:01 PM
This is great.
Who does a "chick w/diick" harm?
Maybe when you're a parent, you'll come to your senses, hey?
Quote from: brewcity77 on September 07, 2024, 12:47:44 PM
This feels like an eventual thread ender, and I'm not religious, but if you believe in God, it is inconsistent not to believe that trans is not part of their plan.
First, you would have to believe that your god created those individuals. In doing so, they imbued those individuals with the belief that their gender identity did not match their assigned sex at birth. Further, if you believe this god created the world and mankind, then they included in that creation the mental acuity in humanity to allow trans surgeries & the scientific laws that have allowed not just trans identification but surgery to match that identity.
Unless you believe your god is so impotent that his creation has been corrupted and they either no longer care or don't have the power to influence his creation.
Ultimately, either trans people are a part of your god's plan and should be embraced and empowered as children of said god, or that god is so weak that I'm not sure why anyone would bother worshipping them.
I suppose there are other possibilities; the devil also exists and is simply more powerful than your god, or your god once had influence but abandoned a failed creation, but I'm not sure how any of those would make someone feel better about their religion.
Nailed it
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 08, 2024, 07:49:26 PM
Weird, aina?
What's weird?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 08, 2024, 07:51:55 PM
Maybe when you're a parent, you'll come to your senses, hey?
My senses without being a parent seem to be a bit better than yours as a parent.
I wonder if Brad had any idea how this thread would devolve?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 08, 2024, 08:32:00 PM
I wonder if Brad had any idea how this thread would devolve?
And as an Evangelical Christian you would never participate in the devolution of a thread
Quote from: Viper on September 07, 2024, 09:58:12 AM
I prefer to right turn back to hoops...but I'll ask this...Is trans part of God's plan or a product of this imperfect world? Respectfully curious of your reply.
I was just pointing out that Jeremiah 1:5 would not be an appropriate verse to quote if your argument is that being trans is not part of God's plan since it says the opposite.
But since you asked, I don't know. Jesus makes no mention of trans individuals in his gospel. I think it's arrogant of any human to try to claim to know God's will definitively on a topic that Jesus wasn't explicit on. That being said, if it was the mortal sin some claim it to be, I think Jesus would have at least mentioned it. What Jesus was explicit on was his message of love and acceptance, especially of those who are ostracized and oppressed. My instinct is that this would apply to our trans neighbors. I know that God would denounce the hatred that many direct towards them and that includes those who flippantly refer to them as "chicks with dicks".
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 08, 2024, 07:51:55 PM
Maybe when you're a parent, you'll come to your senses, hey?
I'm a parent of two kids under five. They have interacted with multiple trans individuals throughout their lives including one that is considered family to them. Are you saying that I am a bad parent?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 08, 2024, 10:02:36 PM
And as an Evangelical Christian you would never participate in the devolution of a thread
Wrong. As an evangelical Christian, it is my right to devolve threads
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 08, 2024, 10:23:14 PM
I'm a parent of two kids under five. They have interacted with multiple trans individuals throughout their lives including one that is considered family to them. Are you saying that I am a bad parent?
Nah, it was like 4elder reminding everyone what a fucking pretty boy he is. It had been a minute.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 08, 2024, 08:17:10 PM
My senses without being a parent seem to be a bit better than yours as a parent.
As a sad, angry childless cat-person, you really ought to have no say in anything.
Quote from: Pakuni on September 09, 2024, 10:17:01 AM
As a sad, angry childless cat-person, you really ought to have no say in anything.
Same
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 08, 2024, 10:19:27 PM
I was just pointing out that Jeremiah 1:5 would not be an appropriate verse to quote if your argument is that being trans is not part of God's plan since it says the opposite.
But since you asked, I don't know. Jesus makes no mention of trans individuals in his gospel. I think it's arrogant of any human to try to claim to know God's will definitively on a topic that Jesus wasn't explicit on. That being said, if it was the mortal sin some claim it to be, I think Jesus would have at least mentioned it. What Jesus was explicit on was his message of love and acceptance, especially of those who are ostracized and oppressed. My instinct is that this would apply to our trans neighbors. I know that God would denounce the hatred that many direct towards them and that includes those who flippantly refer to them as "chicks with dicks".
thx for the reply. And yeah, chicks/dicks is too hs locker room. I admit that I don't necessarily 'accept'. I don't discriminate, but acceptance? If I find lgbtq lifestyles distasteful, using scripture as a guide...Leviticus, 1Timothy, Romans, 1Corinthians & so on, can I accept? I accept the person but not the ways of that person? That's a tough one. My weakness, maybe. Anyway, back to hoops. What's the original topic of this thread?...Hacking on 82, maybe?
Quote from: Viper on September 09, 2024, 12:21:44 PM
thx for the reply. And yeah, chicks/dicks is too hs locker room. I admit that I don't necessarily 'accept'. I don't discriminate, but acceptance? If I find lgbtq lifestyles distasteful, using scripture as a guide...Leviticus, 1Timothy, Romans, 1Corinthians & so on, can I accept? I accept the person but not the ways of that person? That's a tough one. My weakness, maybe. Anyway, back to hoops. What's the original topic of this thread?...Hacking on 82, maybe?
Isn't it Matthew that states Judge not, that ye be not judged, except after 5 years?
Quote from: Viper on September 09, 2024, 12:21:44 PM
thx for the reply. And yeah, chicks/dicks is too hs locker room. I admit that I don't necessarily 'accept'. I don't discriminate, but acceptance? If I find lgbtq lifestyles distasteful, using scripture as a guide...Leviticus, 1Timothy, Romans, 1Corinthians & so on, can I accept? I accept the person but not the ways of that person? That's a tough one. My weakness, maybe. Anyway, back to hoops. What's the original topic of this thread?...Hacking on 82, maybe?
Regarding Leviticus, Jesus explicitly stated that he was replacing the Old Testament with his gospel. Additionally, Leviticus doesnt address transgenderism, it addresses homosexuality. There is a passage in dueteronomy that says crossdressing is a sin but doesnt address other forms of gender nonconformity.
Regrading Paul, he doesnt actually address transgenderism, he addresses homosexuality. Also while he was one of the great leaders of the early church, and I do value his perspective, he was a man who did not know Jesus prior to the crucifixtion. When i find that Pauls writings are in conflict with Jesus' gospel of love and acceptance, I defer to Jesus.
Why do you find LGBTQ "lifestyles" distasteful?
According to Leviticus, we're also not supposed to:
- get tattoos
- grow your hair out
- drink alcohol in holy places (tough break, Catholics)
- go to church within 33 days of giving birth to a boy; 66 days for a girl
- make metal gods (sorry, Iron Maiden fans)
- curse at deaf people
- wear cotton/polyester blends
- trim your beard
- mistreat foreigners (uh-oh, MAGA)
- work on the Sabbath (not great for football players)
- sell land
- touch a woman during that time of the month, or sit on anything she's sat on
Maybe we shouldn't take Leviticus too seriously?
Quote from: Pakuni on September 09, 2024, 10:17:01 AM
As a sad, angry childless cat-person, you really ought to have no say in anything.
True, true. I should probably avoid becoming a parent. My children will be raised to accept others as they are and offer kindness to people who are different than them. In other words, they will be very dangerous to the human race.
Quote from: Pakuni on September 09, 2024, 01:24:32 PM
According to Leviticus, we're also not supposed to:
- get tattoos
- grow your hair out
- drink alcohol in holy places (tough break, Catholics)
- go to church within 33 days of giving birth to a boy; 66 days for a girl
- make metal gods (sorry, Iron Maiden fans)
- curse at deaf people
- wear cotton/polyester blends
- trim your beard
- mistreat foreigners (uh-oh, MAGA)
- work on the Sabbath (not great for football players)
- sell land
- touch a woman during that time of the month, or sit on anything she's sat on
Maybe we shouldn't take Leviticus too seriously?
Interesting that people would pick and choose what to follow and preach on MUScoop based on what fits their agenda.
I really enjoyed the gospel reading for Mass on 9/1. Mk 7:1-8, 14-15, 21-23.
Calling out hypocrites for false piety.
Quote from: Viper on September 09, 2024, 12:21:44 PM
thx for the reply. And yeah, chicks/dicks is too hs locker room. I admit that I don't necessarily 'accept'. I don't discriminate, but acceptance? If I find lgbtq lifestyles distasteful, using scripture as a guide...Leviticus, 1Timothy, Romans, 1Corinthians & so on, can I accept? I accept the person but not the ways of that person? That's a tough one. My weakness, maybe. Anyway, back to hoops. What's the original topic of this thread?...Hacking on 82, maybe?
What's the difference between "discriminate" and "not accept?"
Quote from: Pakuni on September 09, 2024, 01:24:32 PM
According to Leviticus, we're also not supposed to:
- get tattoos
- grow your hair out
- drink alcohol in holy places (tough break, Catholics)
- go to church within 33 days of giving birth to a boy; 66 days for a girl
- make metal gods (sorry, Iron Maiden fans)
- curse at deaf people
- wear cotton/polyester blends
- trim your beard
- mistreat foreigners (uh-oh, MAGA)
- work on the Sabbath (not great for football players)
- sell land
- touch a woman during that time of the month, or sit on anything she's sat on
Maybe we shouldn't take Leviticus too seriously?
As an evangelical Christian, I find it hard to believe any of this is true
Quote from: Pakuni on September 09, 2024, 01:24:32 PM
According to Leviticus, we're also not supposed to:
- get tattoos
- grow your hair out
- drink alcohol in holy places (tough break, Catholics)
- go to church within 33 days of giving birth to a boy; 66 days for a girl
- make metal gods (sorry, Iron Maiden fans)
- curse at deaf people
- wear cotton/polyester blends
- trim your beard
- mistreat foreigners (uh-oh, MAGA)
- work on the Sabbath (not great for football players)
- sell land
- touch a woman during that time of the month, or sit on anything she's sat on
Maybe we shouldn't take Leviticus too seriously?
This is why it's hard for me to take any religion seriously. It's all pick and choose based on things written thousands of years ago. And then you get to the story of Jesus, which was basically stolen from Egyptian mythology and the story of Osiris, written over two millennia earlier.
Osiris was born to a virgin, baptized, had 12 disciples, healed the sick, was crucified, and proclaimed savior after returning from the dead.
https://youtu.be/4lLiRr_mT24?si=M7v7ANZckmOS07AV
Quote from: brewcity77 on September 09, 2024, 06:04:43 PM
This is why it's hard for me to take any religion seriously. It's all pick and choose based on things written thousands of years ago. And then you get to the story of Jesus, which was basically stolen from Egyptian mythology and the story of Osiris, written over two millennia earlier.
Osiris was born to a virgin, baptized, had 12 disciples, healed the sick, was crucified, and proclaimed savior after returning from the dead.
https://youtu.be/4lLiRr_mT24?si=M7v7ANZckmOS07AV
First, you probably shouldn't obtain your theological knowledge from pithy videos from Bill Maher. Because his telling of the Horus story isn't really accurate. A simple Google search would show that.
Second, Jesus was a real and actual person. So was John the Baptizer. Ritual baptism was a practice in Israel at the time. The disciples too were actual people. And there Biblical and non-Biblical sources for the things that Jesus did and said. Sure there are obvious ways that parts of the story borrowed from other mythology. But saying it was "stolen" isn't accurate.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 08, 2024, 07:51:55 PM
Maybe when you're a parent, you'll come to your senses, hey?
This from the guy who posted about Sam Hauser's girlfriend and her looks/sex-life. Yeah...please lecture me on being a good parent. In the end, your loss...I work with a number of trans colleagues...all of them great people. You could learn something from them...
Quote from: wadesworld on September 08, 2024, 08:17:10 PM
What's weird?
My senses without being a parent seem to be a bit better than yours as a parent.
Really? You don't even know me or have any idea of my parenting skills. Hope you have a daughter someday and she takes shower in gym class with some dude who feels like a chick, hey?
#weird
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 09, 2024, 06:58:43 PM
Really? You don't even know me or have any idea of my parenting skills.
Good lord. This must be the most ironic thing you have ever said here.
Beyond weird, aina?
Quote from: lawdog77 on September 09, 2024, 12:34:12 PM
Isn't it Matthew that states Judge not, that ye be not judged, except after 5 years?
4.5 🤣
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 09, 2024, 07:00:25 PM
Good lord. This must be the most ironic thing you have ever said here.
"ironic" ??? where's the irony?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 09, 2024, 07:11:31 PM
Punched back at wades in the Juxtaposition thread. Now, Fluffy BM piles on. Shocking how many schmucks on Scoop know all about me.🤪
It's pretty easy to get a feeling of people's character based on how they treat strangers on a message board.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on September 09, 2024, 07:17:13 PM
"ironic" ??? where's the irony?
The fact you can't figure it out says A TON about your observational and intellectual abilities.
Quote from: avid1010 on September 09, 2024, 06:53:25 PM
This from the guy who posted about Sam Hauser's girlfriend and her looks/sex-life. Yeah...please lecture me on being a good parent. In the end, your loss...I work with a number of trans colleagues...all of them great people. You could learn something from them...
You're so astute. Show me where I've commented on Hauser's choice in women, hey?
#bringiton
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 09, 2024, 07:26:23 PM
#bringiton
LOL, the guy whose been acting like a clown on here for nearly 20 years is all of the sudden Mr. Tough Guy.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 09, 2024, 12:51:54 PM
Regarding Leviticus, Jesus explicitly stated that he was replacing the Old Testament with his gospel. Additionally, Leviticus doesnt address transgenderism, it addresses homosexuality. There is a passage in dueteronomy that says crossdressing is a sin but doesnt address other forms of gender nonconformity.
Regrading Paul, he doesnt actually address transgenderism, he addresses homosexuality. Also while he was one of the great leaders of the early church, and I do value his perspective, he was a man who did not know Jesus prior to the crucifixtion. When i find that Pauls writings are in conflict with Jesus' gospel of love and acceptance, I defer to Jesus.
Why do you find LGBTQ "lifestyles" distasteful?
oh, ok, Jesus didn't address trans. As for the Apostle Paul and his writings, sure...but in totality ...I find Scripture, both Old and New Testaments, to be the inspired word of God, without error in the original writings, the complete revealing of His will for our salvation (even 82), and the final authority for all Christian faith and life. You agree? Paul's writings are significant, of course...and from what I've just stated you should be able to decipher my distaste for the LGBTQ lifestyle and our current world attempt at normalizing what is not intended by God. (not intended based on...God's word). Do I dislike the PERSON that might be gay? Absolutely not. Lifestyle? Yes.
Man did this thing detour from...game plans and free throws. No matta, all good.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 09, 2024, 06:58:43 PM
Really? You don't even know me or have any idea of my parenting skills. Hope you have a daughter someday and she takes shower in gym class with some dude who feels like a chick, hey?
#weird
That's easily the biggest problem facing daughters across America today. Easily.
Quote from: Viper on September 09, 2024, 07:32:28 PM
oh, ok, Jesus didn't address trans. As for the Apostle Paul and his writings, sure...but in totality ...I find Scripture, both Old and New Testaments, to be the inspired word of God, without error in the original writings, the complete revealing of His will for our salvation (even 82), and the final authority for all Christian faith and life. You agree? Paul's writings are significant, of course...and from what I've just stated you should be able to decipher my distaste for the LGBTQ lifestyle and our current world attempt at normalizing what is not intended by God. (not intended based on...God's word). Do I dislike the PERSON that might be gay? Absolutely not. Lifestyle? Yes.
Man did this thing detour from...game plans and free throws. No matta, all good.
I do not believe the Bible is "without error," nor do I believe it is the "final authority" for all Christian faith and life. Christianity is a faith-based religion. Not a code-based one.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 09, 2024, 05:31:55 PM
What's the difference between "discriminate" and "not accept?"
how's this...I find you odd. I would not shun you, or banish you, or dismiss you or even dislike you or want harm to come to you because I find you odd, I just don't care for your oddness.
Question. Don't have a job? You post non stop all the time. What's up with that? What? Odd.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 09, 2024, 07:30:53 PM
LOL, the guy whose been acting like a clown on here for nearly 20 years is all of the sudden Mr. Tough Guy.
And, you've read every one of my 16,081 posts, aina?
Quote from: avid1010 on September 09, 2024, 06:53:25 PM
This from the guy who posted about Sam Hauser's girlfriend and her looks/sex-life. Yeah...please lecture me on being a good parent. In the end, your loss...I work with a number of trans colleagues...all of them great people. You could learn something from them...
out of your lane. Did Rocket say a trans isn't a good person?
Quote from: Viper on September 09, 2024, 07:37:45 PM
how's this...I find you odd. I would not shun you, or banish you, or dismiss you or even dislike you or want harm to come to you because I find you odd, I just don't care for your oddness.
Question. Don't have a job? You post non stop all the time. What's up with that? What? Odd.
I am amazingly multi-talented and efficient.
Anyway if you advocate for anti-oddness type laws and policies, that's the same as shunning and banishing.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 09, 2024, 07:38:35 PM
And, you've read every one of my 16,081 posts, aina?
Only the ones that were informative and interesting. It took about 15 seconds.
I'll take the "over," hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 09, 2024, 06:58:43 PM
Really? You don't even know me or have any idea of my parenting skills. Hope you have a daughter someday and she takes shower in gym class with some dude who feels like a chick, hey?
#weird
You dodged my question. I have two children under 5 who have interacted with trans people their entire lives. One is even considered family and had helped babysit my daughter. Am I a bad parent?
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 09, 2024, 06:19:17 PM
First, you probably shouldn't obtain your theological knowledge from pithy videos from Bill Maher. Because his telling of the Horus story isn't really accurate. A simple Google search would show that.
Second, Jesus was a real and actual person. So was John the Baptizer. Ritual baptism was a practice in Israel at the time. The disciples too were actual people. And there Biblical and non-Biblical sources for the things that Jesus did and said. Sure there are obvious ways that parts of the story borrowed from other mythology. But saying it was "stolen" isn't accurate.
It's not all the one story, but much of the Bible lifted a lot from other faiths. The story of Eve is a rehash of Pandora's Box. The Great Flood is straight out of Gilgamesh, and yes, the Jesus myth borrows heavily from other religions.
I'm not at all a Maher fan. He's a racist bigot who doesn't deserve the platform he has. But when it comes to Christianity being a young religion that borrowed heavily from other religions, he's spot on.
Quote from: Viper on September 09, 2024, 07:32:28 PM
oh, ok, Jesus didn't address trans. As for the Apostle Paul and his writings, sure...but in totality ...I find Scripture, both Old and New Testaments, to be the inspired word of God, without error in the original writings, the complete revealing of His will for our salvation (even 82), and the final authority for all Christian faith and life. You agree? Paul's writings are significant, of course...and from what I've just stated you should be able to decipher my distaste for the LGBTQ lifestyle and our current world attempt at normalizing what is not intended by God. (not intended based on...God's word). Do I dislike the PERSON that might be gay? Absolutely not. Lifestyle? Yes.
Man did this thing detour from...game plans and free throws. No matta, all good.
Bluntly Viper i don't believe you. I don't think your distaste for LgBTQ "lifestyles" is because you believe scripture is without error. If you did, you wouldnt eat shellfish, you wouldn't cut your beard, you would be very cognizant of where women on their periods have sat recently, you'd be advocating for slavery, you'd believe women should be fully subservient to their husbands, that murder is an appropriate response to interracial marriage, you wouldn't work on saturdays (or support those who do), you would stone people who worship other religions, you would have executed your children if they ever rebelled against you, you would stone to death any woman that had pre-matiral sex, you would support open borders, you'd be living in a socialist commune.... the list goes on.
If you truly believed that scripture is perfect, you would advocate for all of these things, but you don't. For some reason out of all the questionable beliefs and practices in the Bible, this is one you stand by. That tells me that something else is motivating your distaste and the scripture is a convenient cover. I mean i believe that someone telling you that it was a sin may have been how it started but theres got to be another reason why that belief persisted when you dismissed so many other rules and teachings from scripture.
Quote from: brewcity77 on September 09, 2024, 09:11:35 PM
It's not all the one story, but much of the Bible lifted a lot from other faiths. The story of Eve is a rehash of Pandora's Box. The Great Flood is straight out of Gilgamesh, and yes, the Jesus myth borrows heavily from other religions.
I'm not at all a Maher fan. He's a racist bigot who doesn't deserve the platform he has. But when it comes to Christianity being a young religion that borrowed heavily from other religions, he's spot on.
Well that's quite a different statement than the story of Jesus was "stolen" from Egyptian mythology, which isn't accurate at all and was the claim of the video you posted.
Yes Christianity used many concepts that other religions used. And vice versa. Pandora's box as a great example of a concept that could be common to both.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 09, 2024, 09:28:29 PM
Bluntly Viper i don't believe you. I don't think your distaste for LgBTQ "lifestyles" is because you believe scripture is without error. If you did, you wouldnt eat shellfish, you wouldn't cut your beard, you would be very cognizant of where women on their periods have sat recently, you'd be advocating for slavery, you'd believe women should be fully subservient to their husbands, that murder is an appropriate response to interracial marriage, you wouldn't work on saturdays (or support those who do), you would stone people who worship other religions, you would have executed your children if they ever rebelled against you, you would stone to death any woman that had pre-matiral sex, you would support open borders, you'd be living in a socialist commune.... the list goes on.
If you truly believed that scripture is perfect, you would advocate for all of these things, but you don't. For some reason out of all the questionable beliefs and practices in the Bible, this is one you stand by. That tells me that something else is motivating your distaste and the scripture is a convenient cover. I mean i believe that someone telling you that it was a sin may have been how it started but theres got to be another reason why that belief persisted when you dismissed so many other rules and teachings from scripture.
Very interesting how the Bible is a crutch in certain situations in our society. Very interesting, indeed.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 08, 2024, 08:32:00 PM
I wonder if Brad had any idea how this thread would devolve?
First, they always do.
And, in a way, it is still the same debate. How to build and get better in the modern world.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 09, 2024, 07:20:42 PM
The fact you can't figure it out says A TON about your observational and intellectual abilities.
no, it says a lot or NOT about your distorted thinking...the mind of sully?? oh, and what skat said about how others treat strangers on a message board
Quote from: rocket surgeon on September 10, 2024, 07:18:21 AM
no, it says a lot or NOT about your distorted thinking...the mind of sully?? oh, and what skat said about how others treat strangers on a message board
You asked the question. The fact that you can't figure it out pretty much says you're not all that intelligent. And that has been plainly obvious since you showed up here.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 09, 2024, 06:58:43 PM
Hope you have a daughter someday and she takes shower in gym class with some dude who feels like a chick, hey?
#weird
Where is this happening?
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 09, 2024, 09:28:29 PM
Bluntly Viper i don't believe you. I don't think your distaste for LgBTQ "lifestyles" is because you believe scripture is without error. If you did, you wouldnt eat shellfish, you wouldn't cut your beard, you would be very cognizant of where women on their periods have sat recently, you'd be advocating for slavery, you'd believe women should be fully subservient to their husbands, that murder is an appropriate response to interracial marriage, you wouldn't work on saturdays (or support those who do), you would stone people who worship other religions, you would have executed your children if they ever rebelled against you, you would stone to death any woman that had pre-matiral sex, you would support open borders, you'd be living in a socialist commune.... the list goes on.
If you truly believed that scripture is perfect, you would advocate for all of these things, but you don't. For some reason out of all the questionable beliefs and practices in the Bible, this is one you stand by. That tells me that something else is motivating your distaste and the scripture is a convenient cover. I mean i believe that someone telling you that it was a sin may have been how it started but theres got to be another reason why that belief persisted when you dismissed so many other rules and teachings from scripture.
arrogant on your part. Judgement without knowing who I am. Making suggestions as you are is pathetic. Believe what you want, young man. Off base you are. To be blunt, TAMU, you are foolish.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 06, 2024, 01:14:11 PM
An unhappy girly man rolled
The dice and it proved to be bold
His balls were removed
And he found a new groove
In the pool where he took home a gold
if you read the congressional (and other governmental bodies) testimony of the young women who had to share a locker room with and compete against Thomas, he had not removed his balls before taking home a national title.
Quote from: Viper on September 10, 2024, 08:54:50 AM
arrogant on your part. Judgement without knowing who I am. Making suggestions as you are is pathetic. Believe what you want, young man. Off base you are. To be blunt, TAMU, your dad has raised a fool.
He literally drew a logical conclusion off of your own words.
Few of us know each other IRL. All we have to judge you by and draw conclusions from are the words you type here. If, Viper, you are claiming what you post here isn't really you, then why do you do it?
As far as judging you, I would add the whole 'judge not, lest ye be judged' quote, but that ship has sailed. You are judging people all of the time. As am I. As are we all. TAMU has made a judgment about you based on your words here, as you have about him.
I am guessing he is not going to be hurt by your judgment of him at all.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 10, 2024, 09:00:09 AM
He literally drew a logical conclusion off of your own words.
I retract... and modified my last sentence. I should have been better. However...why do YOU feel a need to chime in? Yet again!! Taxes, death and Sutan commentary. Guaranteed.
Quote from: tower912 on September 10, 2024, 09:07:24 AM
Few of us know each other IRL. All we have to judge you by and draw conclusions s from are the words you type here. If, Viper, you are claiming what you post here isn't really you, then why do you do it?
As far as judging you, I would add the whole 'judge not, lest ye be judged' quote, but that ship has sailed. You are judging people all of the time. As am I. As are we all. TAMU has made a judgment about you based on your words here, as you have about him.
I am guessing he is not going to be hurt by your judgment of him at all.
ditto
Quote from: Viper on September 10, 2024, 09:14:55 AM
I retract... and modified my last sentence. I should have been better. However...why do YOU feel a need to chime in? Yet again!! Taxes, death and Sutan commentary. Guaranteed.
It's a message board.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 09, 2024, 06:58:43 PM
Really? You don't even know me or have any idea of my parenting skills. Hope you have a daughter someday and she takes shower in gym class with some dude who feels like a chick, hey?
#weird
Never said I knew anything about your parenting skills. But I'm comfortable with my senses regarding accepting people as they are. You don't like that. Sad.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 09, 2024, 07:11:31 PM
Beyond weird, aina?
Nice edit. Sadly your original post got quoted. Funny that you complain about people "knowing all about you." I have no clue who you are, and frankly have no interest in finding out. You have referenced my last name on here, and seem to have been close with a poster who no longer shows up here after stalking me online and emailing my former HR department.
#weird
Quote from: Viper on September 10, 2024, 08:54:50 AM
arrogant on your part. Judgement without knowing who I am. Making suggestions as you are is pathetic. Believe what you want, young man. Off base you are. To be blunt, TAMU, you are foolish.
Viper, what judgement did I make on you? I didn't call you a name, i didn't label anything you did as wrong. I just stated that I don't believe something you wrote and provided you my supporting evidence for why I don't believe it. If I'm missing something, please correct me.
Logically there must be a reason why out of all the scripture you have decided that lgbtq "lifestyles" being a sin is true but other things like eating shellfish being a sin is not.
I made zero comment or judgement about what I think that reason is. Your reaction tells me that you think that I think the reason is something bad. I didn't say anything of the sort. I just know from evidence that you don't actually believe that scripture is perfect. So I'm curious what the reason is.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 10, 2024, 08:01:00 AM
You asked the question. The fact that you can't figure it out pretty much says you're not all that intelligent. And that has been plainly obvious since you showed up here.
oh the irony...you don't know jack
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 10, 2024, 01:29:59 PM
No, he's spot on.
spot on what? if it's regarding my intelligence, he's way off but that's what brings a tingle up/down his leg. if he tries to evaluate his people based on message board replies, can't get more shallow and/or weak. if i were in agreement more often with you knob'ers, then i'd say you might have a point
Quote from: rocket surgeon on September 10, 2024, 02:30:20 PM
spot on what? if it's regarding my intelligence, he's way off but that's what brings a tingle up/down his leg. if he tries to evaluate his people based on message board replies, can't get more shallow and/or weak. if i were in agreement more often with you knob'ers, then i'd say you might have a point
Have you ever eaten your neighbors pets?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on September 10, 2024, 02:30:20 PM
spot on what? if it's regarding my intelligence, he's way off but that's what brings a tingle up/down his leg. if he tries to evaluate his people based on message board replies, can't get more shallow and/or weak. if i were in agreement more often with you knob'ers, then i'd say you might have a point
He's spot on that what 4ever wrote was ironic given his repeated words and actions here. And he's also accurate that the irony is obvious, and if you can't see it then you don't know what you're looking for or not understanding. I have no idea about your intelligence, nor do I care. So I won't discuss that.
Quote from: Pakuni on September 10, 2024, 08:33:50 AM
Where is this happening?
The same place where immigrants are eating everyone's pets.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on September 10, 2024, 08:57:50 AM
if you read the congressional (and other governmental bodies) testimony of the young women who had to share a locker room with and compete against Thomas, he had not removed his balls before taking home a national title.
Thanks Chicos