It seems 3 players on this team have come into MU with flat trajectory on there shot. Kolek initial year he had zero arch on his shot, that changed to a beautiful rainbow shot, now Tre and Ben need to figure this out. Tre had a nice run last night but all 3 shots behind the line, where line drives and missed them all. Something for those 2 kids to work on. Al is really raw, do not see him getting many minutes next year as well.
Quote from: BCHoopster on February 22, 2024, 02:55:36 AM
It seems 3 players on this team have come into MU with flat trajectory on there shot. Kolek initial year he had zero arch on his shot, that changed to a beautiful rainbow shot, now Tre and Ben need to figure this out. Tre had a nice run last night but all 3 shots behind the line, where line drives and missed them all. Something for those 2 kids to work on. Al is really raw, do not see him getting many minutes next year as well.
How is there (sic) spelling?
Quote from: Jay Bee on February 22, 2024, 05:51:38 AM
How is there (sic) spelling?
At 3 o'clock in the morning pretty bad, drugged out after having knee replacement surgery
I actually thought Norman looked pretty decent. The shot can be fixed.
I thought Norman looked very comfortable last night. For the first time I thought he played relaxed and looked pretty good to me. Granted it was not great competition, but maybe that is what he needed to get into the flow of things.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 22, 2024, 07:47:45 AM
I actually thought Norman looked pretty decent. The shot can be fixed.
Agreed. There were moments where he flashed his athleticism and strength along with some composure. Hope he continues to improve.
Quote from: Goose on February 22, 2024, 07:52:50 AM
I thought Norman looked very comfortable last night. For the first time I thought he played relaxed and looked pretty good to me. Granted it was not great competition, but maybe that is what he needed to get into the flow of things.
[/quote
Agreed, played better just needs his shot worked on.
After Etienne tackled Lowery, Zaide looked dazed and confused shooting the free throws. I was pleased to see him with the get T'd against UConn. The freshmen are fine. They haven't been called on to contribute huge moments. The guards have shown me enough that I am comfortable with them playing significant minutes next year.
Amadou has further to go. He made a nice dribble drive last night but was not strong enough to finish. He is reportedly at 213 lbs now, up from 195 when he arrived. I can picture him at 235 with arms and shoulders like Oso's and Ben's. His offensive game may never be as good as theirs. Alas. But I can see him getting buckets like Barro, a garbage man getting his points off of dump offs and put backs.
Tre looked fine to me last night.
Tre plays at his pace. When he gets more comfortable and can ramp that up a bit it could be a lot of fun.
I like Tre. He's a fighter and competitor who plays to win on both ends. Love the way Shaka is building the team giving young players experience and mature players to lead the way.
all the freshmen have no outside shot. At least this year, we can't depend on them or expect them to help out offensively.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 22, 2024, 07:47:45 AM
I actually thought Norman looked pretty decent. The shot can be fixed.
wouldn't be great to get a guy where the shot doesn't need fixing?
Quote from: Viper on February 22, 2024, 10:51:42 AM
wouldn't be great to get a guy where the shot doesn't need fixing?
Eh. Most of these guys could score so easily at the previous level that it wasn't much of a concern.
I am not sure how anyone can make any real evaluation of any of the three freshmen given how little they have played. Granted, Tre and Zaide have started to get more minutes recently, and the results have been mixed which is absolutely understandable. It' hard to only play a couple of minutes here and there. Oso did not look like a world beater at the beginning either. But, get used to Tre because, without a transfer portal player, he is the point guard next year since Sean Jones very well may not be up to speed when the season starts.
Tre shoots like someone who is not comfortable shooting will such a high release. In HS the release point on his 3s was much lower, which worked at that level. He's a good shooter, another full summer of work to get comfortable with this higher release and Im confident he will be at least a decent shooter going forward. Which is good enough for him with how good he is attacking the basket (and already finishing with both hands which is refreshing to see).
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 22, 2024, 10:55:27 AM
Eh. Most of these guys could score so easily at the previous level that it wasn't much of a concern.
As long as they're able to fix it before they need to be counted on for major minutes, I don't think it matters. Two years ago, Tyler, Jop, and Stevie were all having issues making threes, but they were 5th to 8th scoring options. Now that it matters, they're all proving to be reliable in conference play.
Quote from: tower912 on February 22, 2024, 09:05:09 AM
After Etienne tackled Lowery, Zaide looked dazed and confused shooting the free throws. I was pleased to see him with the get T'd against UConn. The freshmen are fine. They haven't been called on to contribute huge moments. The guards have shown me enough that I am comfortable with them playing significant minutes next year.
Amadou has further to go. He made a nice dribble drive last night but was not strong enough to finish. He is reportedly at 213 lbs now, up from 195 when he arrived. I can picture him at 235 with arms and shoulders like Oso's and Ben's. His offensive game may never be as good as theirs. Alas. But I can see him getting buckets like Barro, a garbage man getting his points off of dump offs and put backs.
Tre looked fine to me last night.
I picture Al playing the same role Kur did 2 years ago, just a little shorter but likely stronger. Never a 30+ mpg star, but a nice role as an athletic rim runner, roll man and rim protector. Gold and Parham will be more versatile threats for when we want to play with more spacing at the 5 spot.
Quote from: Viper on February 22, 2024, 10:51:42 AM
wouldn't be great to get a guy where the shot doesn't need fixing?
The trade off was what we had with Wojo. Sure several guys came in who could shoot but they never had the skills to be good defenders. My guess is that Shaka looks to defense first, and figures he can make their shots better as many times it can be fixable to Sultan's point.
I was surprised to see Chase running point last night in the 2nd half over Tre. Wonder if that is a sign of things to come next year, especially before Sean comes back.
Quote from: drewm88 on February 22, 2024, 11:15:49 AM
I was surprised to see Chase running point last night in the 2nd half over Tre. Wonder if that is a sign of things to come next year, especially before Sean comes back.
I noticed he did it at times in the second half v. UConn as well.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on February 22, 2024, 11:09:09 AM
The trade off was what we had with Wojo. Sure several guys came in who could shoot but they never had the skills to be good defenders. My guess is that Shaka looks to defense first, and figures he can make their shots better as many times it can be fixable to Sultan's point.
I love me some Stevie, but just think about offense on this team if we had Markus starting at the 2. Sure we'd give up some on D, but we'd score 130 points a game. It literally wouldn't be fair to the other team.
Quote from: 1SE on February 22, 2024, 11:29:15 AM
I love me some Stevie, but just think about offense on this team if we had Markus starting at the 2. Sure we'd give up some on D, but we'd score 130 points a game. It literally wouldn't be fair to the other team.
Kam is Marcus lite
Also, check out how many games we lost with Stevie out.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on February 22, 2024, 11:35:21 AM
Kam is Marcus lite
Also, check out how many games we lost with Stevie out.
We lost 1 game with Stevie out.
Also, regardless of anyone's stance on swapping Markus for Stevie.
Your point is irrelevant anyways, since Markus was not in fact playing when Stevie was out.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 22, 2024, 11:16:52 AM
I noticed he did it at times in the second half v. UConn as well.
Chase as Shaka says is a dude, most athletic player on the team by far, would love to see him learn how to use his right hand, lefty dominant. When I played I was totally lefty dominant, you can get away with it but after awhile teams will take that away from him, Kolek has learned to use both hands which makes him a complete player. Not sure Chase knows how to pass as a point, enjoy Kolek maybe the best passer in MU history, do not remember Tony Miller that much but Kolek makes insane passes every game .
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on February 22, 2024, 11:51:22 AM
We lost 1 game with Stevie out.
Also, regardless of anyone's stance on swapping Markus for Stevie.
Your point is irrelevant anyways, since Markus was not in fact playing when Stevie was out.
I don't know how to break it to you, but on a message board people discuss things. Hypothetical things, frequently.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on February 22, 2024, 12:23:41 PM
I don't know how to break it to you, but on a message board people discuss things. Hypothetical things, frequently.
Correct. The discussion was already made
You then used a irrelevant counter that was also incorrect
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on February 22, 2024, 12:41:23 PM
Correct. The discussion was already made
You then used a irrelevant counter that was also incorrect
LOL
I don't know if Tre will be a star, a solid starter, a nice contributor off the bench, a 10 mpg role player or only a garbage-time guy. But I trust Shaka and his track record of players improving under his watch.
So if I had to guess, it would be either the second or third choice on the above list.
Quote from: 1SE on February 22, 2024, 11:29:15 AM
I love me some Stevie, but just think about offense on this team if we had Markus starting at the 2. Sure we'd give up some on D, but we'd score 130 points a game. It literally wouldn't be fair to the other team.
Again, people don't seem to understand the value of defense
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on February 22, 2024, 01:08:04 PM
Again, people don't seem to understand the value of defense
The same folks didn't understand how important Omax was to the team last year.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on February 22, 2024, 12:23:41 PM
I don't know how to break it to you, but on a message board people discuss things. Hypothetical things, frequently.
you are correct!...but beware...you might be called a...dork...or worse, a snowflake 😂
Quote from: BCHoopster on February 22, 2024, 06:31:52 AM
At 3 o'clock in the morning pretty bad, drugged out after having knee replacement surgery
I do my best work drugged
Someone compared Tre to Junior Cadougan, which I thought was apt. I think he can develop into a solid floor general who plays good defense, even if he never becomes a great outside shooting threat.
Quote from: El Guerrero 2 on February 22, 2024, 05:31:03 PM
Someone compared Tre to Junior Cadougan, which I thought was apt. I think he can develop into a solid floor general who plays good defense, even if he never becomes a great outside shooting threat.
I still see a grad transfer coming in next year if Kolek does not comeback
Quote from: Hards Alumni on February 22, 2024, 01:23:34 PM
The same folks didn't understand how important Omax was to the team last year.
Post of the year
Defense is the name of the game. Shut down the opponent and turn into transition offense. My favorite style of basketball.
Quote from: BCHoopster on February 22, 2024, 05:40:26 PM
I still see a grad transfer coming in next year if Kolek does not comeback
You have said this cooouunnnttlesssss times......every chance you get. I am quite confident that you will not be satisfied with Shaka if he doesn't. Shaka knows what he needs. Maybe just pump the brakes...
Quote from: We R Final Four on February 22, 2024, 08:10:37 PM
You have said this cooouunnnttlesssss times......every chance you get. I am quite confident that you will not be satisfied with Shaka if he doesn't. Shaka knows what he needs. Maybe just pump the brakes...
Agreed never again! When you sleep 3 hours tops every night taking Oxy I barely wonder if I am coherent!
Quote from: BCHoopster on February 22, 2024, 08:58:37 PM
Agreed never again! When you sleep 3 hours tops every night taking Oxy I barely wonder if I am coherent!
As my daughters might say, TMI?
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on February 22, 2024, 01:08:04 PM
Again, people don't seem to understand the value of defense
Markus for Stevie is the wrong hypothetical trade.
Markus for Kam is the correct hypothetical trade. Offense goes nuclear and defense doesnt change, may even improve
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 23, 2024, 12:12:26 AM
Markus for Stevie is the wrong hypothetical trade.
Markus for Kam is the correct hypothetical trade. Offense goes nuclear and defense doesnt change, may even improve
Careful man, this sort of talk is called irrelevant!
Quote from: Hards Alumni on February 22, 2024, 01:23:34 PM
The same folks didn't understand how important Omax was to the team last year.
I don't do advanced stats for bball...but am I right to say our defense ranks better than last year and our offense is worse?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on February 23, 2024, 06:07:15 AM
Careful man, this sort of talk is called irrelevant!
TAMU wizard & knower of ball, allowed.
Quote from: avid1010 on February 23, 2024, 06:23:16 AM
I don't do advanced stats for bball...but am I right to say our defense ranks better than last year and our offense is worse?
Kenpom 23 offense and 16 defense, currently.
Pretty sure you're right. Our offense was right at the top IIRC, and our defense was in the 40s.
We also have a more experienced team than last year that has been playing and practicing together for a couple of years.
The experience of this team needs to play big the rest of the way. Imo, they have shown toughness when needed and it is needed the rest of the way.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on February 23, 2024, 06:41:14 AM
Kenpom 23 offense and 16 defense, currently.
Pretty sure you're right. Our offense was right at the top IIRC, and our defense was in the 40s.
We also have a more experienced team than last year that has been playing and practicing together for a couple of years.
Yeah...I understand they are more experienced...but that should show on both sides of the ball? I wouldn't have guessed swapping O-Max for Jop would result in worse offense and better defense. I'm guessing there is an explanation in tempo/style of play?
Quote from: avid1010 on February 23, 2024, 08:01:18 AM
Yeah...I understand they are more experienced...but that should show on both sides of the ball? I wouldn't have guessed swapping O-Max for Jop would result in worse offense and better defense. I'm guessing there is an explanation in tempo/style of play?
Yeah, I agree with you. May also have to do with the opponents played since rankings are relative.
Plus, I think last year Marquette snuck up on a lot of people.
It's very impressive to keep rankings high even when everyone is gunning for you.
In my opinion, continuity is contributing to the defensive improvement. The top 7 have now played 60 games together. They have a thorough understanding of the switches and rotations. This season, there is less full court pressure and more half court trapping, more double teaming the post, more turning/trapping the PG in pick and roll situations.
Ben Gold is playing phenomenal team defense this year. Too many get caught up in the fact that he struggles defending 6'2 guards on the perimeter. Watch him double the ballhandler and recover. Watch his help defense. Watch his post positioning.
Finally, and this is really going to sound weird, but I was impressed with the walk on defense against DePaul. Strictly from a scheme standpoint, their rotations, particularly off the ball were good enough to be noticed. Sure, they got overpowered by scholarship players. But the walk-ons were rotating and helping. Good coaching.
Tower is spot on explaining the defensive improvement.
The offense is really missing O-Max's team best FT rate ( a very good 51.5 according to T rank) and second best true shooting percentage of 61.7%.
Those numbers would also be first and second this year. Only Oso has had a better TS% in either year.
We also miss OMaxs ability to nuetrailze wings and forwards. Team defense has improved beyond my wildest dreams, but I miss having a guy who we could put on someone like Karaban and say "he doesnt score tonight".
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 23, 2024, 10:00:19 AM
We also miss OMaxs ability to nuetrailze wings and forwards. Team defense has improved beyond my wildest dreams, but I miss having a guy who we could put on someone like Karaban and say "he doesnt score tonight".
Stevie, Chase, O-Max, and Oso would've been an absolute lockdown unit.
Incredible that the defense still made a 25 spot leap after losing O-Max.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 23, 2024, 12:12:26 AM
Markus for Stevie is the wrong hypothetical trade.
Markus for Kam is the correct hypothetical trade. Offense goes nuclear and defense doesnt change, may even improve
Kam is a better defender than Markus. Simply replacing a 6'4" defender with 5'10" defender creates its own issues with respect to defense and rebounding. Markus could draw charges but was a liability defending in the paint.
As for the offense, do you really think Markus and Kolek could coexist? IMO, that combination would be oil and water.
No question that Markus is a better shooter than Kam.
I think Norman will develop into a solid BE guard. He's strong and physical. His shot needs work, but he makes good decisions on his shots.
Thinking about the roster for next year, and observing some of the comments about PG next year, we're in an interesting spot. Assuming Kolek and Oso are the only departures...
Kam, Stevie, and Jop likely retain their starting roles.
I'd assume Gold takes Oso's spot as the starting big.
The remaining starting spot has to go to Ross, right? There's no way he comes off the bench again next year.
Does that mean Kam slides to PG? Stevie? Some folks have noted that Chase has run point a few times recently.
Norman and Lowery fill the roles occupied by Sean and Chase this year, with Sean Jones taking a RS to rehab his knee?
Frontcourt depth is big on quantity (Amadou/Hamilton/Owens/Parham), but how is the quality?
With Kolek and Ighodaro leaving, the kneejerk reaction is to say we need a grad transfer or other high-level talent, but that would almost guarantee the departure of one of Kam/Stevie/Chase/Jop/Ben, would it not?
As it relates specifically to Tre, I'd expect a step up to the backup guard role next year, and a possible starting role the year after that. I think he can develop to be productive on that timeline.
On defensive improvement.. one thing to look at is 2FG% defense. Last year, we were 50.3% for the season; so far this year, 49.1%. Block % up about a percent.
In Beast play, last year our 2FG% def was 53.3% and we had a blk% of 8.3%. This year, those figures are 49.0% and 11.8%, respectively.
OMax had a baby block rate. Startlingly low. 0.6%. Much of his minutes are covered by increases from Jop and Benny. Jop has a 5.3% blk% in conf play – wow – up from 2.0% last year. Really strong improvement. Ben down to 3.9% but on more minutes.
So, large improvements in blocking shots vs. OMax has helped the 2FG% defense.
Quote from: IL Warrior on February 23, 2024, 10:20:21 AM
Thinking about the roster for next year, and observing some of the comments about PG next year, we're in an interesting spot. Assuming Kolek and Oso are the only departures...
Kam, Stevie, and Jop likely retain their starting roles.
I'd assume Gold takes Oso's spot as the starting big.
The remaining starting spot has to go to Ross, right? There's no way he comes off the bench again next year.
Does that mean Kam slides to PG? Stevie? Some folks have noted that Chase has run point a few times recently.
Norman and Lowery fill the roles occupied by Sean and Chase this year, with Sean Jones taking a RS to rehab his knee?
Frontcourt depth is big on quantity (Amadou/Hamilton/Owens/Parham), but how is the quality?
With Kolek and Ighodaro leaving, the kneejerk reaction is to say we need a grad transfer or other high-level talent, but that would almost guarantee the departure of one of Kam/Stevie/Chase/Jop/Ben, would it not?
As it relates specifically to Tre, I'd expect a step up to the backup guard role next year, and a possible starting role the year after that. I think he can develop to be productive on that timeline.
Personally, I think Stevie could easily slide over to that PG spot, but most of the guards could easily bring the ball up. None will be like Tyler of course.
Yep, there is absolutely no replacing Kolek with a Kolek-like player. That skill-set doesn't exist on the roster and isn't arriving with a 2024 recruit. And there's almost surely no TK-like player who will be available in the portal or as a grad transfer.
We've been lucky and spoiled. He is a generational talent.
So when he leaves, Marquette fans need to get the thought of "replacing Kolek" out of their heads, as difficult as that might be.
A Kam/Stevie/Ross/Norman/SJones (if healthy) combo would do fine IMHO. We've gotten used to way better than fine, of course, but again we've been so incredibly fortunate.
Quote from: IL Warrior on February 23, 2024, 10:20:21 AM
Thinking about the roster for next year, and observing some of the comments about PG next year, we're in an interesting spot. Assuming Kolek and Oso are the only departures...
Kam, Stevie, and Jop likely retain their starting roles.
I'd assume Gold takes Oso's spot as the starting big.
The remaining starting spot has to go to Ross, right? There's no way he comes off the bench again next year.
Does that mean Kam slides to PG? Stevie? Some folks have noted that Chase has run point a few times recently.
Norman and Lowery fill the roles occupied by Sean and Chase this year, with Sean Jones taking a RS to rehab his knee?
Frontcourt depth is big on quantity (Amadou/Hamilton/Owens/Parham), but how is the quality?
With Kolek and Ighodaro leaving, the kneejerk reaction is to say we need a grad transfer or other high-level talent, but that would almost guarantee the departure of one of Kam/Stevie/Chase/Jop/Ben, would it not?
As it relates specifically to Tre, I'd expect a step up to the backup guard role next year, and a possible starting role the year after that. I think he can develop to be productive on that timeline.
I can see both sides. On the one hand, it wouldn't surprise me to see Shaka bet on his current guys being good enough. Kam, Stevie, Chase, and Tre would be PG by committee. Maybe Sean will be healthy enough to provide depth at somepoint.
On the other hand, I would hate to waste Stevie, Kam, and Jop's senior years on a failed PG experiment. If Shaka adds a PG, it would have to be a player that fits the culture, and would require the buy in from Chase to be the super 6th man.
It's a tricky situation to navigate but that's why Shaka gets paid the big bucks. The rest of us can speculate but we'll see how it plays out.
Quote from: MU82 on February 23, 2024, 11:26:30 AM
A Kam/Stevie/Ross/Norman/SJones (if healthy) combo would do fine IMHO. We've gotten used to way better than fine, of course, but again we've been so incredibly fortunate.
As the saying goes, if you have to fill <insert any position here in any sport> by committee, its because you don't actually have anyone that can do the job.
Sean would be the best option of the group if healthy, but ideally he's more of a 10 minutes a game change of pace kind of guy.
Maybe Charcuterie has a younger brother.
Quote from: Zog from Margo on February 23, 2024, 10:18:33 AM
Kam is a better defender than Markus. Simply replacing a 6'4" defender with 5'10" defender creates its own issues with respect to defense and rebounding. Markus could draw charges but was a liability defending in the paint.
As for the offense, do you really think Markus and Kolek could coexist? IMO, that combination would be oil and water.
No question that Markus is a better shooter than Kam.
I think Norman will develop into a solid BE guard. He's strong and physical. His shot needs work, but he makes good decisions on his shots.
Despite their heights, Markus was a better defender than Kam is.
I absolutely think that Markus and Kolek could coexist and would be positively lethal. Markus wouldn't put the volume he did under Wojo but we would see more of the guy who shot over 50% from three as a freshman.
Anyone notion that Markus can't coexist with TK is simply bizarre
As if his freshman year role and shooting were just erased from history.
Markus for most of his career had the ball in his hands all the time by team decision, he doesn't require the ball in his hands at all times
Markus and TK would be unstoppable together
Markus on the wing when Tko runs pick and roll. As soon as MH's man collapses, TKo hits him.
Markus was recruited as a PG. His ticket to the pros was as a PG. Did he have the skillset to play offense with TKO? Absolutely. Markus was one of the best shooters, if not the best shooter, ever at MU. Spending his career at MU as a catch and shoot player while someone else ran the show was not in the cards.
Could he have thrived had he been relieved of the main ball handling duties, especially had his replacement been a genius like TK? You bet.
Would he have come here (or anywhere) to be a mostly catch and shoot 2G? I very much doubt it. His only chance at the NBA was as a PG. I'm sure he was recruited with a promise that PG would become his position
(Zog - you beat me to it! - 100% agree)
Quote from: Zog from Margo on February 23, 2024, 02:30:42 PM
Markus was recruited as a PG. His ticket to the pros was as a PG. Did he have the skillset to play offense with TKO? Absolutely. Markus was one of the best shooters, if not the best shooter, ever at MU. Spending his career at MU as a catch and shoot player while someone else ran the show was not in the cards.
I guess when SJ was healthy playing with TK this year Mysterio came over from the McU and played optical illusions with Sean at PG and TK off the ball.
Again, this is insanity. Markus and TK could have eoxsited without a coach of Shakas caliber. With him? It's just all time stupidity to say they couldn't.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 23, 2024, 01:08:25 PM
Despite their heights, Markus was a better defender than Kam is.
I absolutely think that Markus and Kolek could coexist and would be positively lethal. Markus wouldn't put the volume he did under Wojo but we would see more of the guy who shot over 50% from three as a freshman.
Absolutely. Markus has his two best eFG% seasons sharing the ball with Rowsey.
Kam has the higher block %.
#K2N
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on February 23, 2024, 03:18:24 PM
I guess when SJ was healthy playing with TK this year Mysterio came over from the McU and played optical illusions with Sean at PG and TK off the ball.
Again, this is insanity. Markus and TK could have eoxsited without a coach of Shakas caliber. With him? It's just all time stupidity to say they couldn't.
Look, I loved watching Markus play, but he came to MU to play PG. As a PG, he was a shoot-first player. That's what you would want him to be. His assist to TO ratio was only 1 throughout his career at MU. How does that type of PG fit in a system like MU's that is predicated on moving the ball and creating for others? While playing TKO at the PG might create shooting opportunities for Howard, the reverse would not be the case. Add to that the fact that Oso often initiates the offense and the ball would be in Howard's hands even less. After watching Markus play, it surprises me that you think he'd have been content as a catch and shoot player. He averaged almost 18 shots a game during his junior year and almost 20 a game his senior year. I do not see Howard being content to let TKO run the show and to get, like Kam, about 12 shots a game.
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on February 23, 2024, 01:47:16 PM
Anyone notion that Markus can't coexist with TK is simply bizarre
As if his freshman year role and shooting were just erased from history.
Markus for most of his career had the ball in his hands all the time by team decision, he doesn't require the ball in his hands at all times
Markus and TK would be unstoppable together
TK to MH would have Markus near 30pt per, imo.
Quote from: Zog from Margo on February 23, 2024, 04:00:52 PM
I do not see Howard being content to let TKO run the show and to get, like Kam, about 12 shots a game.
That makes sense based on what we know Markus became.
But if all Markus had known his entire time at Marquette was that the successful Shaka/Nevada system spreads the wealth around, he probably would have been fine with it.
Michael Jordan averaged fewer than 15 shots a game his last two years at UNC.
Quote from: MU82 on February 23, 2024, 04:29:01 PM
That makes sense based on what we know Markus became.
But if all Markus had known his entire time at Marquette was that the successful Shaka/Nevada system spreads the wealth around, he probably would have been fine with it.
Michael Jordan averaged fewer than 15 shots a game his last two years at UNC.
Would Markus have come to MU if he'd known he wouldn't play PG?
Quote from: Zog from Margo on February 23, 2024, 04:00:52 PM
Look, I loved watching Markus play, but he came to MU to play PG. As a PG, he was a shoot-first player. That's what you would want him to be. His assist to TO ratio was only 1 throughout his career at MU. How does that type of PG fit in a system like MU's that is predicated on moving the ball and creating for others? While playing TKO at the PG might create shooting opportunities for Howard, the reverse would not be the case. Add to that the fact that Oso often initiates the offense and the ball would be in Howard's hands even less. After watching Markus play, it surprises me that you think he'd have been content as a catch and shoot player. He averaged almost 18 shots a game during his junior year and almost 20 a game his senior year. I do not see Howard being content to let TKO run the show and to get, like Kam, about 12 shots a game.
Like MU82 said this is all assuming Markus thought process
And its also assuming 1 other huge thing, that in this hypotethical of imagining TK with Markus that we are imaging them playing together for four years. Youre right in that case, it would probably be hard to keep both happy.
But the originial notion was simply imagine Markus on a team like this years with Shaka and Tk.
Markus played a off the ball role for an entire year and was elite without a PG like TK. Even in his second year he shared ball duties with Rowsey and he was super efficient.
Its an extreme stretch to just assume that Markus would not play a year or even multiple years along side TK where he could at the very least run the show as much as sean does. When he spent an entire year here running the show much less than that as a secondary option surrounded by far less lead guard talent.
Quote from: Zog from Margo on February 23, 2024, 04:32:21 PM
Would Markus have come to MU if he'd known he wouldn't play PG?
He didn't play point guard his freshman year, and split it his sophomore year. So seems like he might've?
But nobody knows. It's dumb to think Markus wouldn't have absolutely thrived with a true point guard like Kolek and an offensive system like MU has. Wojo tried to get one with Chartouny but that didn't work. Koby McEwen came in as a point guard and moved Markus off the ball some, but he wasn't BE level either.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 23, 2024, 01:08:25 PM
Despite their heights, Markus was a better defender than Kam is.
I absolutely think that Markus and Kolek could coexist and would be positively lethal. Markus wouldn't put the volume he did under Wojo but we would see more of the guy who shot over 50% from three as a freshman.
I would guess there ae some metrics to back this up because it absolutely contradicts my memory and eye test. Kam has vastly improved at defense to my eye during his time at MU and he plays very tough defense now imo. Markus as I recall improved and did well for someone his size but was generally a liability.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 23, 2024, 04:54:39 PM
He didn't play point guard his freshman year, and split it his sophomore year. So seems like he might've?
But nobody knows. It's dumb to think Markus wouldn't have absolutely thrived with a true point guard like Kolek and an offensive system like MU has. Wojo tried to get one with Chartouny but that didn't work. Koby McEwen came in as a point guard and moved Markus off the ball some, but he wasn't BE level either.
Traci too
Quote from: tower912 on February 23, 2024, 08:13:12 AM
In my opinion, continuity is contributing to the defensive improvement. The top 7 have now played 60 games together. They have a thorough understanding of the switches and rotations. This season, there is less full court pressure and more half court trapping, more double teaming the post, more turning/trapping the PG in pick and roll situations.
Ben Gold is playing phenomenal team defense this year. Too many get caught up in the fact that he struggles defending 6'2 guards on the perimeter. Watch him double the ballhandler and recover. Watch his help defense. Watch his post positioning.
Finally, and this is really going to sound weird, but I was impressed with the walk on defense against DePaul. Strictly from a scheme standpoint, their rotations, particularly off the ball were good enough to be noticed. Sure, they got overpowered by scholarship players. But the walk-ons were rotating and helping. Good coaching.
But playing all those games together...that makes them better on defense...has made them worse on offense?
Quote from: avid1010 on February 23, 2024, 06:13:19 PM
But playing all those games together...that makes them better on deffense...has made them worse on offense?
A several game, teamwide, shooting slump from 3.
Quote from: tower912 on February 23, 2024, 06:28:26 PM
A several game, teamwide, shooting slump from 3.
Looks like 3 pt % is identical to last year? Admittedly...I have no clue how Ken Pom ranks offense and defense.
Did MU finally catch up? Cool. Shaka calls that the most important offensive stat and the most volatile. The next thing I would check is how many free throws MU has attempted compared to last season.
Quote from: Zog from Margo on February 23, 2024, 04:00:52 PM
Look, I loved watching Markus play, but he came to MU to play PG. As a PG, he was a shoot-first player. That's what you would want him to be. His assist to TO ratio was only 1 throughout his career at MU. How does that type of PG fit in a system like MU's that is predicated on moving the ball and creating for others? While playing TKO at the PG might create shooting opportunities for Howard, the reverse would not be the case. Add to that the fact that Oso often initiates the offense and the ball would be in Howard's hands even less. After watching Markus play, it surprises me that you think he'd have been content as a catch and shoot player. He averaged almost 18 shots a game during his junior year and almost 20 a game his senior year. I do not see Howard being content to let TKO run the show and to get, like Kam, about 12 shots a game.
You may have noticed that Shaka enjoys playing multiple PGs on the floor at once and having the action start from multiple positions. Markus would have been just fine.
That being said, this is a hypothetical exercise based on the assumption that both players are on the roster and are buying what Shaka is selling. Its not about whether Shaka would have been able to recruit both.
Quote from: milwaukee ex-pat on February 23, 2024, 05:01:44 PM
I would guess there ae some metrics to back this up because it absolutely contradicts my memory and eye test. Kam has vastly improved at defense to my eye during his time at MU and he plays very tough defense now imo. Markus as I recall improved and did well for someone his size but was generally a liability.
Markus' defensive limitations were physical but he almost always gave full effort, was technically sound, and usually made the right defensive play.
Kam, I love him, but is often lost on that end
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 24, 2024, 04:49:25 PM
You may have noticed that Shaka enjoys playing multiple PGs on the floor at once and having the action start from multiple positions. Markus would have been just fine.
That being said, this is a hypothetical exercise based on the assumption that both players are on the roster and are buying what Shaka is selling. Its not about whether Shaka would have been able to recruit both.
I agree. MU likes to initiate from multiple positions. Shaka also likes players to initiate to create for others. That is not a style we saw much of from Markus or Marquette during his time at MU. The assumption that Markus would have wanted to play the style MU currently plays and would be happy doing so is a big one. Seems to me Markus had some teammates who were taught to share the ball and it did not work out well. As I have said, there is no question that Markus had the skillset to play in any offense.
Quote from: Zog from Margo on February 24, 2024, 05:10:57 PM
I agree. MU likes to initiate from multiple positions. Shaka also likes players to initiate to create for others. That is not a style we saw much of from Markus or Marquette during his time at MU. The assumption that Markus would have wanted to play the style MU currently plays and would be happy doing so is a big one. Seems to me Markus had some teammates who were taught to share the ball and it did not work out well. As I have said, there is no question that Markus had the skillset to play in any offense.
Markus shared the ball plenty, assist rate of over 26% his last two years, over 18% his first two seasons (when he was playing off the ball).
Bump. Was great to see Tre knock down a couple of threes and bring some physicality to the game.
Good to see Tre playing like he belongs.
Tre & Norman had a good night tonight
Quote from: tower912 on February 28, 2024, 08:38:41 PM
Good to see Tre playing like he belongs.
Agree. Not gonna lie I've been a little skeptical as to if he had the potential to evolve into the player Shaka thinks he can be. But, he's a winner, and suspect will work himself into a very good Big East player.
It was really nice to see Tre Norman have a really good all around game against PC. Really glad he hit a couple of 3's but was also very impressed with his defense. He is really starting to develop now that he is consistently getting more minutes.
I really noticed that he looked comfortable out there in the Xavier game. He didn't look like a nervous freshman in that game and played well. I was very happy last night when he came in because even before he even really "did" anything, he just looked comfortable. He seems to have turned a corner and I think he'll be a solid sub and contributor down the stretch.
The best thing about freshmen...
Quote from: StillAWarrior on February 29, 2024, 07:39:19 AM
I really noticed that he looked comfortable out there in the Xavier game. He didn't look like a nervous freshman in that game and played well. I was very happy last night when he came in because even before he even really "did" anything, he just looked comfortable. He seems to have turned a corner and I think he'll be a solid sub and contributor down the stretch.
The best thing about freshmen...
Is when they contribute to a Final 4 run.
The second best is that they become sophomores.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on February 29, 2024, 07:39:19 AM
I really noticed that he looked comfortable out there in the Xavier game. He didn't look like a nervous freshman in that game and played well. I was very happy last night when he came in because even before he even really "did" anything, he just looked comfortable. He seems to have turned a corner and I think he'll be a solid sub and contributor down the stretch.
The best thing about freshmen...
I wish we still had Sean Jones available, but sometimes injuries create opportunities. Two 'benefits' of the injury are 1) Kolek has the ball in his hands more, and 2) it has given Tre more minutes on the floor to find his game and figure out where he fits on the team.
Great quote from Tre in Steele's article:
"If my coach tells me when I'm open to let it fly, I'm going to do it. You got the green light here at Marquette to do that. Every player that steps on the floor."
Shaka also said in the radio show last night that they review the tapes of their in game huddles and Tre was caught saying "there is no vengeance without violence." Thought that was a bit funny as Shaka seemed surprised and impressed when he heard it.
That is one of the things I appreciate about Shaka. Freshmen have a green light.
Yeah, the Scoopers who thought that certain players should not be able to shoot after the first few games...bad advice. Shoot your shot.
Quote from: CountryRoads on March 01, 2024, 10:23:54 AM
Great quote from Tre in Steele's article:
"If my coach tells me when I'm open to let it fly, I'm going to do it. You got the green light here at Marquette to do that. Every player that steps on the floor."
Shaka also said in the radio show last night that they review the tapes of their in game huddles and Tre was caught saying "there is no vengeance without violence." Thought that was a bit funny as Shaka seemed surprised and impressed when he heard it.
This Tweet is evidence of that very quote. It doesn't go unnoticed by anyone.
Could prove to be huge for this team down the stretch.
https://twitter.com/DivineFriars/status/1763257551611724142?t=wTsyZqw8EU_fEVwBvIqEPg&s=19
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on March 01, 2024, 10:34:37 AM
This Tweet is evidence of that very quote. It doesn't go unnoticed by anyone.
Could prove to be huge for this team down the stretch.
https://twitter.com/DivineFriars/status/1763257551611724142?t=wTsyZqw8EU_fEVwBvIqEPg&s=19
That's great.
Also benefits from Kolek nearly always delivering the ball where they want it. Something for Tre to aspire to.
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on March 01, 2024, 10:34:37 AM
This Tweet is evidence of that very quote. It doesn't go unnoticed by anyone.
Could prove to be huge for this team down the stretch.
https://twitter.com/DivineFriars/status/1763257551611724142?t=wTsyZqw8EU_fEVwBvIqEPg&s=19
Yep, show that to every recruit.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on March 01, 2024, 10:34:17 AM
Yeah, the Scoopers who thought that certain players should not be able to shoot after the first few games...bad advice. Shoot your shot.
100% agreed
Shaka after UConn game:
"Tre Norman was very good. I like the competitive fire in his eyes. That's the guy we recruited. He played with no fear. As a coach, you're always looking for little things you can take out of games that guys can build on. ... This was a high, high level game, and Tre looked like he belonged."
Two good games in the last 3. Puked away the other one. He isn't TKo and likely never will be. He will be fine.
Quote from: MU82 on March 07, 2024, 06:28:03 AM
Shaka after UConn game:
"Tre Norman was very good. I like the competitive fire in his eyes. That's the guy we recruited. He played with no fear. As a coach, you're always looking for little things you can take out of games that guys can build on. ... This was a high, high level game, and Tre looked like he belonged."
Agree. Tre looked good. Touches of Butch Lee. He's a fighter who will help Marquette win.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on March 07, 2024, 06:54:44 AM
Agree. Tre looked good. Touches of Butch Lee. He's a fighter who will help Marquette win.
Butch Lee? '78 College POY. Where did you see some Butch Lee in Tre's game?
It's interesting how for awhile there, Norman looked totally lost and Lowery was earning more PT with his good play, and now it's Zaide who can't stay on the court while Tre is looking good and getting PT.
Freshmen ... can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em (though Shaka often does).
In his two good games recently, Tre has reminded me of freshman year Sean Jones on offense. Intellectually knows what the offense is, attacks and get his own, not seeing passing lanes yet.
Tre Norman starting to look a bit like freshman year Stevie Mitchell. One more year as his understudy, then Tre replaces Stevie.
Quote from: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on March 07, 2024, 08:36:39 AM
Tre Norman starting to look a bit like freshman year Stevie Mitchell. One more year as his understudy, then Tre replaces Stevie.
Great, so for the rest of this season and all of next season we'll have two piles of dung.
Quote from: MU82 on March 07, 2024, 08:38:48 AM
Great, so for the rest of this season and all of next season we'll have two piles of dung.
MU to become a dung team
Add Jamal Shead to the small list of players who did little their first year and developed into a star
Scored 85 points and had 39 assists in 26 games.......he shot 3-24 from 3.
Just saw it today .....and no I'm not suggesting that Norman will became an all American........just that it's too soon to write him off......
Only dopes and mopes write off college athletes their freshmen year. Any of us could find dozens of examples of guys who did little as freshmen and went on to become outstanding players.
OMax, 22 games, 10 minutes game. 2.5 ppg.
Oso, 38 minutes all season.
Stevie, 11 minutes per game. 2.8 ppg
TKo, 2.3 asssts per game. Shooting guard.
And yet, here we are.
Quote from: tower912 on March 07, 2024, 03:03:48 PM
OMax, 22 games, 10 minutes game. 2.5 ppg.
Oso, 38 minutes all season.
Honestly, had Shaka cut them and gotten better players, it would have behooved him
Sorry, Rico. I felt compelled to keep going.
Quote from: tower912 on March 07, 2024, 03:03:48 PM
OMax, 22 games, 10 minutes game. 2.5 ppg.
Oso, 38 minutes all season.
Stevie, 11 minutes per game. 2.8 ppg
TKo, 2.3 asssts per game. Shooting guard.
And yet, here we are.
The less you play freshman year the more likely you turn into a 1st round NBA draft pick.
Amadou ---> NBA
(https://media.tenor.com/Um5wy5kuZiUAAAAM/anchorman-science.gif)
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 07, 2024, 03:12:24 PM
The less you play freshman year the more likely you turn into a 1st round NBA draft pick.
Amadou ---> NBA
(https://media.tenor.com/Um5wy5kuZiUAAAAM/anchorman-science.gif)
I mean it worked for D-Wade
Nah. Just don't write off freshmen. But only a small percentage are game changers from day 1.
I mean, the entire starting lineup for Madison's 2013-14 Final Four team ranged from "nothing special" to "basically sucked" as freshmen:
Kaminsky 1.8 ppg ... Jackson 1.1 ppg ... Brust 0.7 ppg ... Gasser 5.9 ppg ... Dekker 9.6 ppg.
As I said, given 15 minutes to use the googles, any of us could come up with dozens of examples like this.
None of which "proves" that Amadou, Norman or Lowery will become standouts. I don't think anybody is saying anything differently. More like: "Please don't dismiss relatively unproductive freshmen as players who will never produce."
And BTW, Kaminsky sucked as a sophomore, too.
Quote from: Viper on March 07, 2024, 07:03:07 AM
Butch Lee? '78 College POY. Where did you see some Butch Lee in Tre's game?
Actually, there was a play in the Providence game where Tre deftly changed direction and with strength split two defenders taking it to the rack for what looked like an easy bucket. It was anything but. Other than Kam, I don't think anyone else on our roster could've pulled that drive off. And maybe Alfred Butch Lee too.
Quote from: GoFastAndWin on March 07, 2024, 04:38:10 PM
Actually, there was a play in the Providence game where Tre deftly changed direction and with strength split two defenders taking it to the rack for what looked like an easy bucket. It was anything but. Other than Kam, I don't think anyone else on our roster could've pulled that drive off. And maybe Alfred Butch Lee too.
ah, but can Tre push an American Olympic team to the brink as Butch did ??😉