1. Conference road games. Oy. Cannot take them for granted. Especially at Providence. What a hellhole.
2. MU avoided injuries for 40 ish games. Eventually, they catch up.
3. Chase stepped on the defender's foot on his plant step. Nails for coming back.
4. Ben needs to step up. No other choice.
5. Providence was the more aggressive team. That usually leads to a win. Punched MU in the mouth and they never recovered.
6. Experienced players flustered, frustrated, and careless. Not connected on either end. No assists.
7. Can't come back by missing lay ups and not getting stops.
8. The freshmen in the second half played hard. Playing quality minutes during a whoopin' will pay dividends.
9. Providence had a defensive scheme to disrupt MU's offense. It is safe to assume other teams will as well. What will MU's countermove be?
10. Thank goodness Georgetown is next. Heal faster, Stevie.
Honestly it's starting to feel very similar to the volleyball team this year.
You return everybody except one player from an incredibly successful team. You have one of the best playmakers in the country (Kolek/Anchante) and have very good good supporting cast.
But, there's one glaring weakness (post presence/physical pin hitter) that the coach had the opportunity to go out at fix in the offseason through the portal and the respective coaches just don't do so for whatever reason.
Add to that the replacement player that takes over for said person who left just isn't up to the level, and you're left with a flawed roster.
Getting Stevie back will help, but I said all offseason. You have to take advantage of tournament runs when they're presented to you, just can't assume you'll be in the some position the following season.
Beyond the obvious we're not winning games if Oso is a non factor and we have few assists and double digit turns. It was an atrocious performance, there's no way to sugarcoat this fact. I think we'll be fine but I'm concerned about wide open misses from distance.
I'm very unimpressed with the bench right now.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 19, 2023, 09:59:04 PM
I'm very unimpressed with the bench right now.
This is the issue. And when two starters aren't playing well it's an incredibly tall ask.
Soft!
Cooley knows how to beat this Marq team, proved it last year. Georgetown is no gimme
Right now MU can't hit 3's. That's a big issue.
That was a really hard game to watch. All facets. Need Stevie back real bad.
Number 9 is what I think bothers me the most. I always thought Shaka made great adjustments, changed schemes, but recently it looks like we will do one thing and it's do or die. Maybe we just don't have the horses, which is crazy to think with the talent of our big three
Yeah as great as Shaka is and as happy as I am to have him
His refusal to portal is officially bordering on negligent.
Jop as a 6th man and Chase the 7th? Great. Jop as a starter driving the hole and shooting like 35% on the year? That is MU fans everywhere being introduced to darkness.
This team misses the defensive presence, rebounding and energy of Omax. While I hoped his loss would be offset by a stronger offensive team, that hasn't materialized.
For this team to meet expectations, we need someone to step up. The opportunity is there for Jop, Chase, Ben, and the freshman. Who is it going to be?
This team is flawed. Pining for Stevie Mitchell reminds me of the days people here thought a healthy Greg Elliott is all we needed to turn the season around...lol. Stevie wasn't changing the result tonight. The supporting cast continues to disappoint.
Doing nothing with a 2 seed last year is going to haunt us.
Chitown ... excellent post.
This team is flawed. It was a serious mistake to not get help ( a big ... and a real 3 point shooter ) in the portal
Lots of problems w / this team right now
Re:
4. May never happen.
5. Just like a year ago, they were more physical and were allowed to get away with it.
9. So did Wisky, and there will be others.
I never thought I'd see a more frustrating game than the one here a year ago but I was wrong.
Shaka's got a lot of work to do. We bounced back pretty nicely from the opening PC loss a year ago so all is not lost.
Like the Badgers, I'm getting sick of losing to these jerks.
The "no mid range shots" rule really leads to a lot of terrible forced shots at the rim.
Quote from: MUeng on December 19, 2023, 10:00:46 PM
Cooley knows how to beat this Marq team, proved it last year. Georgetown is no gimme
Yeah coming off a garbage performance horrible Georgetown on a Friday night at home is about as gimme as it gets in this league. 2nd to only DePaul.
Psychologically it's much different being the hunter than the hunted. That said our bench certainly has had their struggles and if 2 of our top 3 guys play poorly it's a daunting task to beat good teams.
I thought Kam really struggled tonight from a decision making standpoint. Then, when Kolek was not getting fouls at the rim, he lost his composure which can't happen. When our top 3 play well things are much easier for the auxiliary guys. This evening wasn't their night.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 19, 2023, 09:59:04 PM
I'm very unimpressed with the bench right now.
I just don't see Sean being a high impact player at this level. Have personally never seen what other people do.
Like I get it, he's fast, but he's still 5'7" without a capable 3 point shot.
Really missed Stevie tonight. Ross was not good, even before tweaking his ankle.
And really starting to miss O-Max. One less athlete to get easy buckets in transition, get to the rim, or get to the FT line. Joplin has a different game but he needs to step up.
Just a poor, poor game. Two in a row. Let's see a breakout against a terrible Georgetown team. Anything less than a blowout at home will stir anxiety.
Not going to win if
- 4 for 20 from three
- 7 assists to 14 turnovers
- Oso getting dominated in first half by portal transfer from George Mason
- nothing, nothing from bench. Especially Gold, not good.
- fouling three times on threes, Shaka gonna go nuts on them.
Any mention as of right now, of Joplin, Gold, Ross and yes, Lowery going to NBA is just insane.
Good news, your probable starting point guard next year, Sean raised his three point percentage two points to 15%. Now 4 for 26 on year.
Let's get back to playing smart and have to hit threes as usual.
Home game in 3 days against Georgetown and another week off before Creighton at home. Get healthy, make some adjustments and we'll be fine.
Dominated the "FT% Battle"!!!!
Shaka's stubbornness in the offseason coming home to roost. This team is an impact rebounder/rim protector away from being a true contender.
That being said, it's one game and hopefully the guys learn from it. We need to get mentally tougher and that starts with TyKo. We had it down to 4 early in the 2nd half and then Tyler lost his cool with Ayers and it changed the whole vibe of the game in a negative way.
They looked out of ideas offensively. That can happen when absolutely nothing goes in. Turnovers were more troubling.
Defensively... Hooo boy. So much overhelping. So much ball watching. So many soft switches that lead to mismatches.
The amount of open corner threes they give up is asking for trouble.
Quote from: CountryRoads on December 19, 2023, 10:08:51 PM
The "no mid range shots" rule really leads to a lot of terrible forced shots at the rim.
Well this is a point I've been trying to make the last several years and have generally been vilified. Why is it so wrong to take a few wide open 7-10 footers per game? Especially when they're wide open? They aren't guarding JTY at all from the 3pt line until 4 feet from the rim. That's a problem.
11. Oso didn't show up
12. Kam didn't score in the 2nd half and made several head scratching plays defensively.
13. Providence was very well prepared, I like their coach
14. Without TK we lose by 30+ and maybe don't score 40 points. Rest of the team shot 27% overall and 13% from 3.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 19, 2023, 10:12:06 PM
They looked out of ideas offensively. That can happen when absolutely nothing goes in. Turnovers were more troubling.
Defensively... Hooo boy. So much overhelping. So much ball watching. So many soft switches that lead to mismatches.
The amount of open corner threes they give up is asking for trouble.
So. Much. Ball watching.
11. Oso has to get involved early or he tends to float around a bit.
Quote from: CountryRoads on December 19, 2023, 10:08:51 PM
The "no mid range shots" rule really leads to a lot of terrible forced shots at the rim.
Reminds me of the bama sdsu tournament game last year. Bama kept going into the lane, missing bunnies/getting swatted and bricking 3's. It's very easy to defend off the ball when the opposition doesn't utilize a large portion of the half court scoring area.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 19, 2023, 10:12:39 PM
Well this is a point I've been trying to make the last several years and have generally been vilified. Why is it so wrong to take a few wide open 7-10 footers per game? Especially when they're wide open? They aren't guarding JTY at all from the 3pt line until 4 feet from the rim. That's a problem.
7-10 footers aren't really mid range
Oso's flagrant.
https://x.com/mjdemarinis/status/1737325081745830045?s=46&t=ppua9BCUAa7dWM9-SthPmg
Quote from: nyg on December 19, 2023, 10:10:36 PM
Just a poor, poor game. Two in a row. Let's see a breakout against a terrible Georgetown team. Anything less than a blowout at home will stir anxiety.
Not going to win if
- 4 for 20 from three
- 7 assists to 14 turnovers
- Oso getting dominated in first half by portal transfer from George Mason
- nothing, nothing from bench. Especially Gold, not good.
- fouling three times on threes, Shaka gonna go nuts on them.
Any mention as of right now, of Joplin, Gold, Ross and yes, Lowery going to NBA is just insane.
Good news, your probable starting point guard next year, Sean raised his three point percentage two points to 15%. Now 4 for 26 on year.
Let's get back to playing smart and have to hit threes as usual.
People have mentioned Jop going to the NBA? lol. I like the kid and all, but he shouldn't even be starting on this team. He's been quite poor all season.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 19, 2023, 10:17:45 PM
Oso's flagrant.
https://x.com/mjdemarinis/status/1737325081745830045?s=46&t=ppua9BCUAa7dWM9-SthPmg
If we can go back to review non-called fouls at dead balls games will take 4 hours.
I would have zero issue with it had the play been blown dead there.
Quote from: Newsdreams on December 19, 2023, 10:16:35 PM
Well they don't take those and basically teams are giving us that shot.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 19, 2023, 10:22:41 PM
If we can go back to review non-called fouls at dead balls games will take 4 hours.
I would have zero issue with it had the play been blown dead there.
They are allowed to review potential flagrants even if they're not initially called.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 19, 2023, 09:59:04 PM
I'm very unimpressed with the bench right now.
Yep. I thought Norman and Lowery at least showed tonight that they weren't completely overmatched defensively. They either need Jop or Ross to take a big jump or 3-4 guys to take small jumps to be as good as we think they can be.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 19, 2023, 10:23:59 PM
They are allowed to review potential flagrants even if they're not initially called.
Accurate, but they usually don't. So it's a bit odd.
But the game was over by that point anyways.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 19, 2023, 10:23:59 PM
They are allowed to review potential flagrants even if they're not initially called.
I don't understand the confusion. Officials can go back and review a play at a dead ball correct?
Oso was called for a flagrant which results in 2 shots + the ball. The dead ball stoppage was because of a shooting foul which results in 2 shots.
4 shots and the ball back is correct no?
You win some you shouldn't win.
You lose some you shouldn't lose.
Tonight fell into the second category.
Shake it off. Learn. Move on!
It's a long season.
Quote from: MUeng on December 19, 2023, 10:00:46 PM
Cooley knows how to beat this Marq team, proved it last year. Georgetown is no gimme
We will beat Georgetown Friday by 15>.
Quote from: panda on December 19, 2023, 10:26:27 PM
I don't understand the confusion. Officials can go back and review a play at a dead ball correct?
Oso was called for a flagrant which results in 2 shots + the ball. The dead ball stoppage was because of a shooting foul which results in 2 shots.
4 shots and the ball back is correct no?
Yes. It was managed correctly.
We couldn't shoot. eFG% was projected to decline by some of us for good reason
I certainly can appreciate Shaka's way of building team chemistry and an organizational culture. Once he knew Omax was gone though, and he wasn't pursuing a 3/4/5 type player to help solidify the rotation, it seems like a missed opportunity, knowing this team would be a potential title contender.
Almost feels like an MLB contending team that loses their closer a month before the trade deadline, and standing pat.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 19, 2023, 10:30:41 PM
Yes. It was managed correctly.
Maybe I'm not following something here but if they retroactively called a flagrant against Oso shouldn't that "negate" the subsequent foul that was called?
Quote from: dgies9156 on December 19, 2023, 10:28:05 PM
You win some you shouldn't win.
You lose some you shouldn't lose.
Tonight fell into the second category.
Shake it off. Learn. Move on!
It's a long season.
You're not concerned at all brother dgies?
Regarding the call on Oso: Reminds me of the game at Butler last year when Matta was trying to get a flagrant called from like 5 minutes earlier. Officials went to the monitor but I don't think they ever found what the hell he was talking about.
Quote from: cheese ball chaser on December 19, 2023, 10:40:59 PM
Maybe I'm not following something here but if they retroactively called a flagrant against Oso shouldn't that "negate" the subsequent foul that was called?
That's logical, but not how it works.
Also, I know the rule used to be that the flagrant free throws would be taken first, then the two remaining free throws would be taken live. Did that change?
That was a flat out pitiful performance.
PC was prepared, we were not.
For all you fools bashing English so far this year, he had a game plan that worked to near perfection.
And we looked like we were stunned that they didn't bow to our lofty national ranking.
Quote from: cheese ball chaser on December 19, 2023, 10:40:59 PM
Maybe I'm not following something here but if they retroactively called a flagrant against Oso shouldn't that "negate" the subsequent foul that was called?
No. That's not how it works.
Quote from: BM1090 on December 19, 2023, 10:44:49 PM
That's logical, but not how it works.
Also, I know the rule used to be that the flagrant free throws would be taken first, then the two remaining free throws would be taken live. Did that change?
That was the old "intentional foul" rule.
I realize that nothing said on here changes how the team plays. But some of these threads about starting when's our next loss, I don't see one until 13-0, I don't see a loss in our first 5, I don't see a home loss this year have always seemed ridiculous to me. We're a good basketball team. We're not the best team in the country, or the conference. And we certainly aren't an all time great team. We're good enough to win a national title, but we aren't a dominant team. Almost every road game will be tough. A number of home games will be tough.
I also have really disliked Shaka's bragging about not taking transfers. You have an opportunity to take proven players that can play immediately and you just handcuff yourself by refusing to do it. 3 of his 6 or so best players in his time here have been transfers. Not filling OMax's spot really hurts this team.
There will be better nights. But these last 2 games certainly raise some red flags.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 19, 2023, 11:23:26 PM
I realize that nothing said on here changes how the team plays. But some of these threads about starting when's our next loss, I don't see one until 13-0, I don't see a loss in our first 5, I don't see a home loss this year have always seemed ridiculous to me. We're a good basketball team. We're not the best team in the country, or the conference. And we certainly aren't an all time great team. We're good enough to win a national title, but we aren't a dominant team. Almost every road game will be tough. A number of home games will be tough.
I also have really disliked Shaka's bragging about not taking transfers. You have an opportunity to take proven players that can play immediately and you just handcuff yourself by refusing to do it. 3 of his 6 or so best players in his time here have been transfers. Not filling OMax's spot really hurts this team.
There will be better nights. But these last 2 games certainly raise some red flags.
Solid take, agree with all this.
We're a definite top 25 team and there's no question we'll make the NCAA Tournament. That's a huge improvement over where we were during the previous coaching regime. But I don't think we have what it takes to make a deep run. We may not make it out of the first weekend.
The team only shoots threes and layups. This is a problem when (a) most of the team is below average three point shooters and (b) when the opposing team has rim protectors that don't allow layups. Can't some of these guys develop mid range skills ( Mitchel, Ross, Joplin)?
Shaka's best players have been transfers and wojo recruits.
Last season was a perfect storm. The guys were perfectly suited for the roles they were in. Jop and the sophomores were relied on to make a jump and it just hasn't happened yet.
I can see why Shaka played it the way he did this year. Jop looked great the second half of last season. Chase had some huge plays. Those guys earned the chance to step up. Still waiting on them to fully take it.
Moving forward, I don't think his stance on transfers will be as rigid. I think Shaka was vocal about it to help build his guys up. If he gets burned by it, he'll adjust. The game-ready talent is really lacking if Kam leaves with TK and Oso.
Quote from: Biggie Clausen on December 19, 2023, 11:34:36 PM
We're a definite top 25 team and there's no question we'll make the NCAA Tournament. That's a huge improvement over where we were during the previous coaching regime. But I don't think we have what it takes to make a deep run. We may not make it out of the first weekend.
LOL.
You could say this about nearly every team in the country, except for possibly UConn.
Quote from: Mu92 on December 19, 2023, 11:38:23 PM
The team only shoots threes and layups. This is a problem when (a) most of the team is below average three point shooters and (b) when the opposing team has rim protectors that don't allow layups. Can't some of these guys develop mid range skills ( Mitchel, Ross, Joplin)?
Is this a serious question?
and not getting TO's...
Quote from: muhoops1 on December 19, 2023, 10:01:34 PM
Right now MU can't hit 3's. That's a big issue.
not every team ranked in the top 10...
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on December 19, 2023, 11:46:15 PM
LOL.
You could say this about nearly every team in the country, except for possibly UConn.
English is a solid coach. Friars also had more talent. That generally = loss on the road.
MU has to get back to moving the ball. The dribble drive is a prescription for failure in this league.
Herman
While I do not agree on Providence having more talent, I do agree on moving the ball. Way too much dribbling and that was problem at UW as well.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 19, 2023, 10:41:42 PM
You're not concerned at all brother dgies?
Depends on whether we make adjustments.
So, not yet.
It's a long season.
Well said.
Muggsy,
At this point I do not have any concerns. I believe this team is better than last year and they will figure things out. They were horrible last night but going into the season I had that as one of their five BE losses.
I will add, I mentioned multiple times my concern of not filling a player to replace Omax. My thoughts were 100% that if Shaka thought they were a bonafide NC contender that he would fill in that last spot. Now, I still think they are a contender based off of the A games they have had thus far, but if it turns out not filling that spot costs them a deep run, I will think it was a missed opportunity.
The big adjustments will be Ross, Gold or someone else getting better throughout the season and contributing at a high level. We need to see the Ross that was predicted in the off-season to have a break out year. We need Gold to act like or show signs that he is a future NBA player more frequently.
Those are the guys that need to be the pressure release valves for Oso, Kam and Tyler on this team. Omax, who frequently gave us easy transition buckets and a few well timed three pointers, is not coming back and MU did not replace him in the portal. Gold and Ross need to be the guys to help out.
Long season. Still very optimistic. Tough place to play. I am concerned about getting blown out. I don't recall looking completely overmatched last year. Omax was a big part of that team. Time for others to step up. Coaching is tough without the horses to get it done. Look for development as the answer.
Announcers were hilarious last night. At halftime I think Fanta asked Donny what Marquette needed to do to get back in the game.
"Play smart". Wow.
2nd worst offensive efficiency game in the Shaka Era. Only St. Bonnie was worse. Flush twice, plunge and move on.
Feel like there's not a whole lot of giving PC credit where it's due. Anyone seen their home record the last couple of years? They're a very good team in their building. Throw in that we're missing a starter. Less concerned about the shots not falling and more concerned about the TOs. Our big three cannot cough the ball up 11 times. Kept the rounding margin closer than I would have thought, but if we're not winning the TO and pts off TO margin by a decent amount, we're going to struggle.
I gave Providence plenty of credit in the OP.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 20, 2023, 07:57:33 AM
2nd worst offensive efficiency game in the Shaka Era. Only St. Bonnie was worse. Flush twice, plunge and move on.
I think our offensive ceiling is lower than last year and my expectations for this year. They killed teams on the empty side ball screen. Now the good teams automatically switch, knowing they have 1 or 2 extra defenders in the paint, because our 3% from our non-initiators (on the weak side) has been so bad. OMax was a decent 3 point shooter, but also had the ability to pump fake and get to the basket. Stevie has a really high basketball IQ and knows when to empty, stand in the corner, make a cut and adds a lot, for his little usage. Nights like last night are when we really miss him defensively to keep us in the game when the offense goes cold.
Quote from: MUDPT on December 20, 2023, 08:42:42 AM
I think our offensive ceiling is lower than last year and my expectations for this year. They killed teams on the empty side ball screen. Now the good teams automatically switch, knowing they have 1 or 2 extra defenders in the paint, because our 3% from our non-initiators (on the weak side) has been so bad. OMax was a decent 3 point shooter, but also had the ability to pump fake and get to the basket. Stevie has a really high basketball IQ and knows when to empty, stand in the corner, make a cut and adds a lot, for his little usage. Nights like last night are when we really miss him defensively to keep us in the game when the offense goes cold.
This is spot on. Some more consistent outside shooting would solve a lot of problems.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on December 20, 2023, 07:50:11 AM
The big adjustments will be Ross, Gold or someone else getting better throughout the season and contributing at a high level. We need to see the Ross that was predicted in the off-season to have a break out year. We need Gold to act like or show signs that he is a future NBA player more frequently.
Those are the guys that need to be the pressure release valves for Oso, Kam and Tyler on this team. Omax, who frequently gave us easy transition buckets and a few well timed three pointers, is not coming back and MU did not replace him in the portal. Gold and Ross need to be the guys to help out.
Long season. Still very optimistic. Tough place to play. I am concerned about getting blown out. I don't recall looking completely overmatched last year. Omax was a big part of that team. Time for others to step up. Coaching is tough without the horses to get it done. Look for development as the answer.
Goose,
This team has an AA, three bona fide studs, and they're all experienced. To be blunt two of them played very poorly yesterday and at times all of them did with a plethora of bad decisions. That simply cannot happen from a team with these expectations.
Now, our auxiliary guys absolutely have to step their games up. Hopefully Stevie is back soon but our 4-8 rotational players are all solid and bring numerous skills to the table. For whatever reason they have all played well in short spurts but have been inordinately inconsistent and not particularly cohesive as well. The lack of flow/rhythm in our offense was most apparent last night and a bit worrisome. The truth is we need to win as a collective group and overall we just haven't seen the cohesion and growth from players that I expected. I think the ND game may have hurt us because we didn't realize they're a borderline D-1 team.
Any updates on Ross's ankle?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 20, 2023, 08:57:00 AM
This is spot on. Some more consistent outside shooting would solve a lot of problems.
Yep, team can't shoot 20% from 3 and expect to win.
They also let the refs get into their heads waaaaaay too much. They need to learn to play around it.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 20, 2023, 09:03:28 AM
They also let the refs get into their heads waaaaaay too much. They need to learn to play around it.
Unfortunately their leader is as guilty as anyone of that. Tyler is constantly bitching to the refs.
Apparently, Shaka said something similar to Homer and Tony during their post-game radio interview.
Synopsis on the Dodds board.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 20, 2023, 09:05:05 AM
Unfortunately their leader is as guilty as anyone of that. Tyler is constantly bitching to the refs.
That's Shaka's job to ride the refs. All you can ask is that the refs call the game consistently, and they did. Tyler better get used to bullyball. He isn't getting the Myles Powell Rules whistles.
The team has to realize that teams are gonna try to play physical defense against them. And if the refs are going to allow it, they need to keep their composure and not resort to a bunch of one on one offense.
Quote from: mugrad_89 on December 19, 2023, 10:13:06 PM
11. Oso has to get involved early or he tends to float around a bit.
Don't understand why he doesn't post down low and use his push shot. Get him involved early
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on December 20, 2023, 09:30:43 AM
Don't understand why he doesn't post down low and use his push shot. Get him involved early
Exactly. What are we missing here? Get him touches.
The aggressive Oso is extremely good, and the passive Oso limits the upside. He is too big of a part of this team and they cannot afford him being a non factor. This team will go as far as Kolek, Oso and Kam can take them. When they are good everyone looks better, even the bench guys that are being discounted on here.
Quote from: tower912 on December 20, 2023, 09:06:12 AM
Apparently, Shaka said something similar to Homer and Tony during their post-game
My wife and I are chilling at a Caribbean resort and couldn't watch the game. So we had to listen to Homer, something I haven't done in many years - and something I hope to not have to do for several more years.
He spent two hours beyotching about the refs and talking over Tony, who might or might not have had good contributions to make. It was a tough way to get through a frustrating game.
As for the game, it sounded like Oso and Kam were borderline terrible - and we simply cannot beat a good team on the road when 2 of our big 3 are struggling.
Others' comments about being disappointed so far in the lack of development of several players we desperately need to be good- most notably Ross, Gold and Joplin - also ring true.
But one thing I've learned from Shaka's time at MU is to not get overly panicky based on a bad road loss or a poor small sample from a season. And not even just for Marquette. I keep going back to UConn enduring a 2-6 stretch last season.
We'll learn a lot more about our team when Creighton comes to Fiserv at the end of the year. Until then ... don't worry, be happy! Time to hit the swim-up bar!!
Lots of you keep saying the bench guys need to " step up " ... ok ....
What evidence is there that they can do that ? It seems none of them ( Sean,
Gold , Ross or Jop ) is better than last year.
Jop has basically been terrible for most of the year. Not close to replacement for OMAX. Not good on D... dribbling w / head down into traffic
Ben ... Meh ... not improved. Not at all
Sean ? Well ... he hit one big 3 pt shot v.
UCLA . Other than that he's shooting about .15 percent from 3. He's not doing much ...
Etc etc
Serious question: why would / should any of us think that these guys are going to get so much " better " during the course of the next 20 games ?
Someone listed some of our three point numbers. The combined numbers of Mitchell and Sean Jones is almost hard to fathom even if you're a poor shooter. And these are wide open looks essentially. Corner threes are dream shots. They have to knock them down or we're always playing 4 on 5. Not to mention they rarely if ever take the wide open 7 footer in the paint. Nor does Ross.
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on December 20, 2023, 09:30:43 AM
Don't understand why he doesn't post down low and use his push shot. Get him involved early
He did multiple times in the first half. Oduro wouldn't let him get in position and he had to shoot from a foornor two further than typical and missed
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 20, 2023, 10:54:43 AM
He did multiple times in the first half. Oduro wouldn't let him get in position and he had to shoot from a foornor two further than typical and missed
Then Oso has to be better - he's already gone against Dickerson, Edey and Bona, so I'd expect him to be able to hold his own against Oduro.
Credit to Providence players and staff. Strong effort. They played high level team defense.
Quote from: Mu8891 on December 20, 2023, 10:14:06 AM
Lots of you keep saying the bench guys need to " step up " ... ok ....
What evidence is there that they can do that ? It seems none of them ( Sean,
Gold , Ross or Jop ) is better than last year.
Jop has basically been terrible for most of the year. Not close to replacement for OMAX. Not good on D... dribbling w / head down into traffic
Ben ... Meh ... not improved. Not at all
Sean ? Well ... he hit one big 3 pt shot v.
UCLA . Other than that he's shooting about .15 percent from 3. He's not doing much ...
Etc etc
Serious question: why would / should any of us think that these guys are going to get so much " better " during the course of the next 20 games ?
Not a lot available on the immediately eligible trade market. Ergo, this team has to roll with what is here. Ergo, the existing players need to play better.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 20, 2023, 09:25:04 AM
That's Shaka's job to ride the refs. All you can ask is that the refs call the game consistently, and they did. Tyler better get used to bullyball. He isn't getting the Myles Powell Rules whistles.
Agree, and Shaka needs to do a better job of it. Although last night I think he was picking his battles with how terrible MU was offensively.
Couple observations.
1. Providence played very well last night and are a tough, experienced team. I look forward to playing them in our place to see how good they are on the road, but I think they are a tournament team.
2. Oso is much better initiating offense from the high or wide post off of the catch than he is dribbling the ball from the perimeter. Doesn't mean he can't do it from the perimeter, but he's just not as effective. Teams are going to hammer him at the basket in the BE though and live with him at the FT line. He did well there last night, but he has to continue being aggressive. When he's passive, Marquette is an average team.
3. Tyler has to make teams pay for going under the screen. Providence did it most of the night and Tyler only pulled the trigger a couple times. I understand he wants to get teammates involved, but its ok to be selfish there.
4. Marquette misses O Max's ability affect the game without having the ball in his hands. His slashing ability and willingness to hit the offensive glass(or any glass for that matter) are traits Jop just doesn't have and Chase is too inconsistent with. Jop has to find ways to help this team more than he currently is and its not always just scoring the basketball. Without improvement from the 4 spot, this team is not even a second weekend team much less a Final Four team.
5. The bench is a problem with Chase in the starting lineup. None of the freshman are reliable enough to play serious minutes. Sean cannot shoot and the ball sticks to him too much while he dribbles around. Ben can shoot and rebound, but cannot play defense without fouling. Need Stevie to get healthy quickly.
6. Lastly and most importantly though, the team was not mentally ready to play that game. For whatever reason, refs allow Providence to play more physical in that building than anywhere else. Its not exactly a secret anymore and at this point its apart of playing on the road in the Big East. Given that this team has experience playing there, I was surprised to see them get rattled and start bitching at the refs looking for calls. Just shut up and play, let Shaka worry about the officiating and just focus on the game.
While all of that sounds pretty negative, I'm still bullish on this team because Hawaii shows what they are capable of.
Quote from: Warrior2008 on December 20, 2023, 11:45:40 AM
While all of that sounds pretty negative, I'm still bullish on this team because Hawaii shows what they are capable of.
This is where I'm at. The big difference there vs. the two road defeats is they just look tight on the road. They played with clear heads against KU and look what happened.
I think the staff does need to adjust some on the defensive side of things if Stevie remains out. They're getting beat a lot on corner threes after doubling the post. It's become an auto-double, gotta fake it sometimes and recover. The Tommies had that sh*t scouted cold. Tyler has been particularly susceptible to leaving his man to double the post. The other thing they need to do is stop auto-switching. Switch when there's actual resistance. Some dude cuts across with no contact and they switch. Or a big goes up then slips and you have a guard on them. It's gonna help with the 2PT defense and keep the guards out of foul trouble.
Quote from: tower912 on December 20, 2023, 09:06:12 AM
Apparently, Shaka said something similar to Homer and Tony during their post-game radio interview.
Synopsis on the Dodds board.
Speaking of the refs being in someone's head.
I scrolled through the game thread on his board and the moderator started complaining about refs and flopping about a minute into the game and the theme accounted for about 75% of his comments .
Providence was more aggressive. Generally, refs reward the aggressive home team. A tale as old as time.
Typical Dodds loser's lament
Ben has improved his defense but his size 16s don't allow him to recover as quickly as Oso. It seems to me he recognizes his rotations but his feet just don't move fast enough. Ben needs to spend the offseason at the Michael Flattley Summer Camp.
Or not miss two months with shin splints.
Quote from: tower912 on December 20, 2023, 12:03:41 PM
Providence was more aggressive. Generally, refs reward the aggressive home team. A tale as old as time.
I can't recall Marquette getting home cooking like PC and UW get.
A matter of perspective.
Tower ... I recognize that MU is not gonna make an in season trade ...
But ( snark notwithstanding) what evidence / reason is there to suggest that the players will somehow just
" get better " .... Or " step up " in the middle of the year ?
I mean ... it's good to hope, but (?)
No other choice. Either they do or they don't.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 20, 2023, 11:54:53 AM
This is where I'm at. The big difference there vs. the two road defeats is they just look tight on the road. They played with clear heads against KU and look what happened.
I think the staff does need to adjust some on the defensive side of things if Stevie remains out. They're getting beat a lot on corner threes after doubling the post. It's become an auto-double, gotta fake it sometimes and recover. The Tommies had that sh*t scouted cold. Tyler has been particularly susceptible to leaving his man to double the post. The other thing they need to do is stop auto-switching. Switch when there's actual resistance. Some dude cuts across with no contact and they switch. Or a big goes up then slips and you have a guard on them. It's gonna help with the 2PT defense and keep the guards out of foul trouble.
What drives me insane is the assumption Ben can defend like Oso on the perimeter and the willingness to allow switches onto him. Its not entirely why he's foul prone, but he's getting at least a foul or two a game on stupid stuff like that. The guards HAVE to get through the ball screen when they can or they're leaving Ben totally exposed.
My concern about leaning too much on Hawaii showing what the team is capable of is that that's getting to be a month ago and I'm not sure the team is improving.
I thought MU had a golden opportunity to get off to a good start because having most of the players back from a good team plus a summer trip (and the additional practice time) should have given them a leg up on teams that are incorporating a lot of new players into their rotations.
For the most part MU seemed to take advantage of that until they crashed in Madison. But to improve from there they need players who are being asked to take on bigger roles to deliver, and it hasn't happened so far. Gold might be hampered by the shin splints that cost him significant development time, but Joplin, Ross, and Sean Jones have to contribute more, especially with Mitchell out (for who knows how long). I have to wonder if Ross will be unavailable on Friday too.
It's a road loss to a decent team. Stuff happens. The only thing I am pissed about is this:
Quote from: Herman Cain on November 05, 2023, 12:06:35 PM
1.No Injuries
2. No Injuries
3. No Injuries
4. No Injuries
5. No Injuries
I blame Herm for this rash of injuries.
Quote from: wisblue on December 20, 2023, 02:42:43 PM
I thought MU had a golden opportunity to get off to a good start because having most of the players back from a good team plus a summer trip (and the additional practice time) should have given them a leg up on teams
Good thing you're right and we got off to a good start.
Quote from: Mu92 on December 19, 2023, 11:38:23 PM
The team only shoots threes and layups. This is a problem when (a) most of the team is below average three point shooters and (b) when the opposing team has rim protectors that don't allow layups. Can't some of these guys develop mid range skills ( Mitchel, Ross, Joplin)?
Then you would need a new coaching staff
Quote from: MU82 on December 20, 2023, 10:04:14 AM
My wife and I are chilling at a Caribbean resort and couldn't watch the game. So we had to listen to Homer, something I haven't done in many years - and something I hope to not have to do for several more years.
He spent two hours beyotching about the refs and talking over Tony, who might or might not have had good contributions to make. It was a tough way to get through a frustrating game.
As for the game, it sounded like Oso and Kam were borderline terrible - and we simply cannot beat a good team on the road when 2 of our big 3 are struggling.
Others' comments about being disappointed so far in the lack of development of several players we desperately need to be good- most notably Ross, Gold and Joplin - also ring true.
But one thing I've learned from Shaka's time at MU is to not get overly panicky based on a bad road loss or a poor small sample from a season. And not even just for Marquette. I keep going back to UConn enduring a 2-6 stretch last season.
We'll learn a lot more about our team when Creighton comes to Fiserv at the end of the year. Until then ... don't worry, be happy! Time to hit the swim-up bar!!
interesting, your take on Homer. I turn down the tv and turn up the radio. I think Home Team is great. Whether with George Thompson, Jimmy Mac and the last few seasons w/TSmith.
Quote from: Mu8891 on December 20, 2023, 10:14:06 AM
Lots of you keep saying the bench guys need to " step up " ... ok ....
What evidence is there that they can do that ? It seems none of them ( Sean,
Gold , Ross or Jop ) is better than last year.
Jop has basically been terrible for most of the year. Not close to replacement for OMAX. Not good on D... dribbling w / head down into traffic
Ben ... Meh ... not improved. Not at all
Sean ? Well ... he hit one big 3 pt shot v.
UCLA . Other than that he's shooting about .15 percent from 3. He's not doing much ...
Etc etc
Serious question: why would / should any of us think that these guys are going to get so much " better " during the course of the next 20 games ?
agreed.
Quote from: Viper on December 20, 2023, 08:09:21 PM
interesting, your take on Homer. I turn down the tv and turn up the radio. I think Home Team is great. Whether with George Thompson, Jimmy Mac and the last few seasons w/TSmith.
Everyone has different opinions on everything. I'm comfortable with mine being right on this one - ha!
Quote from: tower912 on December 20, 2023, 02:28:35 PM
No other choice. Either they do or they don't.
They won't. Find me a player that found "it" mid-season. There are for sure players who had "it" before and broke out of a slump, but players like Jop aren't just going to step up mid-season, it doesn't work that way.
Then give up and quit watching.
Dumb question but are mid season insta play transfers even a thing?
Quote from: Johnny B on December 20, 2023, 09:16:32 PM
Dumb question but are mid season insta play transfers even a thing?
Didn't Luke Fischer become eligible mid-season back in the day?
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on December 20, 2023, 08:48:36 PM
They won't. Find me a player that found "it" mid-season. There are for sure players who had "it" before and broke out of a slump, but players like Jop aren't just going to step up mid-season, it doesn't work that way.
Feel free to look at Kolek's game log from last season. Happens all the time.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on December 20, 2023, 09:29:20 PM
Feel free to look at Kolek's game log from last season. Happens all the time.
Agreed. That seems like a silly take. Players get better all the time with more experience. The game slows down. They get used to how physical conference play is. Will they get better enough to make a big difference? Only time will tell. Will they get better? Absolutely.
Quote from: mugrad_89 on December 20, 2023, 09:23:27 PM
Didn't Luke Fischer become eligible mid-season back in the day?
Only after sitting out two semesters.
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on December 20, 2023, 08:48:36 PM
They won't. Find me a player that found "it" mid-season. There are for sure players who had "it" before and broke out of a slump, but players like Jop aren't just going to step up mid-season, it doesn't work that way.
Jimmy Butler comes to mind. Kolek was already mentioned. Crowder had to be brought off the bench for a while because he wouldn't stop fouling. OMax last year. Novak had to be told to shoot as a freshman. And players break out of shooting slumps all the time. What is Oso's ft percentage the last few games?
19 games to go.
It is not uncommon for guys to improve in season or revert back to the level they have played before. MU needs last years Jop back on offense and it will be a good start.
Stevie hitting 3's at a 30% clip would help, too.
Quote from: tower912 on December 21, 2023, 07:41:12 AM
Stevie hitting 3's at a 30% clip would help, too.
He will revert back to his average of around that. Shots will fall.
Quote from: MU82 on December 20, 2023, 08:13:57 PM
Everyone has different opinions on everything. I'm comfortable with mine being right on this one - ha!
I'm with you, MU82. I'm always shocked that some like Homer's play by play calls. Figure they must have grown up with it so that is what they know and there is a nostalgic attraction to it. That's understandable. I find him cringe-worthy.
Quote from: StillWarriors on December 21, 2023, 07:51:22 AM
I'm with you, MU82. I'm always shocked that some like Homer's play by play calls. Figure they must have grown up with it so that is what they know and there is a nostalgic attraction to it. That's understandable. I find him cringe-worthy.
Homer's awful. He's been awful for years. I'd rather listen to a Lappas and Simpkins tag team.
Kolek is Example #1 of a player who improved during a season ... and in his case spectacularly so.
One year ago, he was a 9ppg scorer, and there wasn't a soul who thought he'd be BEPOY, BETOP and a 2023-24 first-team All-American.
Obviously, players improve during a season.
Now, to expect anything close to THAT kind of improvement would be setting oneself up for disappointment. But we don't need that.
If at least 2 of our big 3 play great and if a couple of our role players do what they've already shown they're capable of, we're tough to beat. If Oso, TK and Kam all excel and we get anything from anyone else, we are championship-caliber.
Every team in the country is still trying to figure things out, even the few remaining unbeatens.
It's still December.
All the back in forth in this thread is silly. Of course scoop overall is a ludicrous place and the fact that microphallus idiots like VBMG take it so seriously is embarrassing. The bottom line is MU is like most top CBB teams in this day and age. They are good, not great. They are capable of great nights like against Kansas. They are capable of poor nights like UW and Providence. They will be a top BE team and a higher seed in the tourney. What they do there depends on who they play and which version of their team shows up. That's it. If you expect a team that is perfect and never loses and is without flaws you'll be disappointed. Just see what happens. There will be highs and lows. Stop embarassing yourself in VBMG fashion by acting like 12 year olds. Most of you are 60+ years older than that.
Quote from: Farley36 on December 21, 2023, 08:08:43 AM
All the back in forth in this thread is silly. Of course scoop overall is a ludicrous place and the fact that microphallus idiots like VBMG take it so seriously is embarrassing. The bottom line is MU is like most top CBB teams in this day and age. They are good, not great. They are capable of great nights like against Kansas. They are capable of poor nights like UW and Providence. They will be a top BE team and a higher seed in the tourney. What they do there depends on who they play and which version of their team shows up. That's it. If you expect a team that is perfect and never loses and is without flaws you'll be disappointed. Just see what happens. There will be highs and lows. Stop embarassing yourself in VBMG fashion by acting like 12 year olds. Most of you are 60+ years older than that.
Rent-free. 🤡
I think Farley is spot on. I think everyone has seen enough to know what the very good MU looks like and hopefully what the bad looks like. I almost look at this season like MU is an NBA team and March/April is the goal. Not that they will not go hard on regular basis, but very difficult to bring the A game every night, especially with the schedule they play.
In addition, this team is loaded with experienced guys, and they know what to do and what the goal for the season is. While every game is very important, getting a top three seed is the most important goal for the regular season. MU has used a bunch of different lineup combo's this season and some have worked better than others. Possibly some of the combo's will improve during the season. I do think the last few games of the season will make or break a top three seed.
When it is all said and done MU will have far more good performances over duds. That said, I would not be a bit surprised if they have 2-3 more bad games. Between last season and the first 12 games this year they have not had many easy games, especially starting with BE play last year. I would assume it is very difficult to have A game for 50+ straight games.
I also agree with what Farley says about this season's Marquette team, Goose. You and I have been saying similar. Going into each game, I expect MU to play well, but I'm not surprised by the occasional dud because it's simply not realistic to think every performance over the course of a long season will be like what we did against Kansas. Plus, the other teams also have good players and coaches, and also are motivated to succeed.
Of course, Farley calling out others as immature is a whole 'nother thing. He stomped his feet and declared that he was officially finished with Marquette basketball after Shaka's first season, even saying Shaka should have been fired.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 21, 2023, 07:47:09 AM
He will revert back to his average of around that. Shots will fall.
Agreed.
Quote from: MU82 on December 21, 2023, 09:09:46 AM
I also agree with what Farley says about this season's Marquette team, Goose. You and I have been saying similar. Going into each game, I expect MU to play well, but I'm not surprised by the occasional dud because it's simply not realistic to think every performance over the course of a long season will be like what we did against Kansas. Plus, the other teams also have good players and coaches, and also are motivated to succeed.
Of course, Farley calling out others as immature is a whole 'nother thing. He stomped his feet and declared that he was officially finished with Marquette basketball after Shaka's first season, even saying Shaka should have been fired.
Shaka's first season was Wojoesque. He turned it around. I'm big enough to admit that. But much of that was intentional hyperbole to rile you boomers up. I know VBMG doesn't understand what hyperbole is but surely you do. Unlike some posters, I don't take this stuff seriously all. I certainly wouldn't come on here and think I'm hilarious because I make a small penis comment or call someone names.
Quote from: Farley36 on December 21, 2023, 09:18:28 AM
Shaka's first season was Wojoesque. He turned it around. I'm big enough to admit that. But much of that was intentional hyperbole to rile you boomers up. I know VBMG doesn't understand what hyperbole is but surely you do. Unlike some posters, I don't take this stuff seriously all. I certainly wouldn't come on here and think I'm hilarious because I make a small penis comment or call someone names.
I'm sorry the truth hurt your feelings so much. You and NLW should start a support group.
Again, your post history tells the story. Any reasonable or positive posts are complete outliers. Typically only shows up during or after a bad loss.
No need to derail this thread or the other one any further.
This board is legendary for how rational and level headed it is after losses.
Quote from: Goose on December 21, 2023, 08:57:37 AM
I think Farley is spot on. I think everyone has seen enough to know what the very good MU looks like and hopefully what the bad looks like. I almost look at this season like MU is an NBA team and March/April is the goal. Not that they will not go hard on regular basis, but very difficult to bring the A game every night, especially with the schedule they play.
In addition, this team is loaded with experienced guys, and they know what to do and what the goal for the season is. While every game is very important, getting a top three seed is the most important goal for the regular season. MU has used a bunch of different lineup combo's this season and some have worked better than others. Possibly some of the combo's will improve during the season. I do think the last few games of the season will make or break a top three seed.
When it is all said and done MU will have far more good performances over duds. That said, I would not be a bit surprised if they have 2-3 more bad games. Between last season and the first 12 games this year they have not had many easy games, especially starting with BE play last year. I would assume it is very difficult to have A game for 50+ straight games.
Goose, haven't you said you feel this current team is one of MU's great teams? Historic, or something to that effect? If you are hedging some from your earlier enthusiasm, I'd agree with that hedge. This is a good team. Not great. As some of the weaknesses come to the fore, I'm not sure this team is anything more than a one-win -then-out tournament team. Certainly matchups and player health are huge where this is concerned. But even with experienced guys, the weaknesses are tough ones to overcome...poor bench scoring production and rebounding are two that jump out at me. I'm thinking this is a 9- loss team heading to the ncaa. From there...?
Viper
I believe I said there were at least three better teams and likely a couple more. That said, if this team has a deep run, it will climb the list. It has no chance to be top three, IMO and I think I stated that during Maui. I had this team at 24-7 and sticking with that. I will add that this team can be great in today's game and I believe compete for a NC. I am no less excited than I was a month ago and think there will be far more good performances over bad ones. The three best teams in MU history had their share of dud games but they usually won with those games.
To sum it up, I think the good version of this team is extremely good and the most fun team ever to watch at MU. I thought last year going into March they could win it all and feel the same way about this year, just two months earlier than last year.
Not sure how old you are Viper, but if more than 10 years younger than me I would have to think the Kansas game was a top five performance by MU in your lifetime. IMO, the Illinois game, Maui and Texas proved to me this team can be great in the current college game.
Quote from: Farley36 on December 21, 2023, 09:18:28 AM
Shaka's first season was Wojoesque. He turned it around. I'm big enough to admit that. But much of that was intentional hyperbole to rile you boomers up. I know VBMG doesn't understand what hyperbole is but surely you do. Unlike some posters, I don't take this stuff seriously all. I certainly wouldn't come on here and think I'm hilarious because I make a small penis comment or call someone names.
Well, that was a LOT of hyperbole on your part, so much that calling it hyperbole now sure seems convenient for you. But it is nice to see you admit that you went a little off the deep end back then.
I totally agree about name-calling. You should take your own advice on that, too.
Anyway ... welcome back to being a fan of the team again?
We Are Marquette!
Is there any reason 3-2 zone wasn't played at all? I want to say it was used for the first 15ish seconds of a possession a couple of times per game before Providence. Not saying it would have affected the outcome, just curious.
Quote from: Goose on December 21, 2023, 01:55:20 PM
Viper
I believe I said there were at least three better teams and likely a couple more. That said, if this team has a deep run, it will climb the list. It has no chance to be top three, IMO and I think I stated that during Maui. I had this team at 24-7 and sticking with that. I will add that this team can be great in today's game and I believe compete for a NC. I am no less excited than I was a month ago and think there will be far more good performances over bad ones. The three best teams in MU history had their share of dud games but they usually won with those games.
To sum it up, I think the good version of this team is extremely good and the most fun team ever to watch at MU. I thought last year going into March they could win it all and feel the same way about this year, just two months earlier than last year.
Not sure how old you are Viper, but if more than 10 years younger than me I would have to think the Kansas game was a top five performance by MU in your lifetime. IMO, the Illinois game, Maui and Texas proved to me this team can be great in the current college game.
+50 but -60...I'll leave it at that 😂
Quote from: tower912 on December 21, 2023, 09:51:12 AM
This board is legendary for how rational and level headed it is after losses.
Just like every single message board for every sports team there is.
Viper
Depending on how you fall in that range we are pretty close together. I hit a round number this year and not a fan!!