MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: real chili 83 on December 14, 2023, 09:17:45 PM

Title: Sh1t show
Post by: real chili 83 on December 14, 2023, 09:17:45 PM
What an awful game.

Could have lost this easily.

Sh1t show.  Eff the trap game theory.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: tower912 on December 14, 2023, 09:19:30 PM
Northwestern lost last night in this scenario.  MU ground out a win.  An ugly win, but a win.   Get well, Stevie.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: BM1090 on December 14, 2023, 09:20:53 PM
It was bad, especially in the first half. But I thought last fifteen minutes was a product of St. Thomas making some tough, tough shots more than anything else.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: real chili 83 on December 14, 2023, 09:20:59 PM
We are a ton better than this.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: tower912 on December 14, 2023, 09:21:36 PM
Hopefully.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: withoutbias on December 14, 2023, 09:21:40 PM
Quote from: tower912 on December 14, 2023, 09:19:30 PM
Northwestern lost last night in this scenario.  MU ground out a win.  An ugly win, but a win.   Get well, Stevie.

We aren't Northwestern, thank God.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: MU82 on December 14, 2023, 09:23:46 PM
There are always gonna be a couple/few games like this. We had some last year too. The key thing is coming out on the right side of 'em.

Sure, I wish we won by 20+. But in the end I'm just glad we won.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: tower912 on December 14, 2023, 09:24:17 PM
Ugly win beats an ugly loss.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: CountryRoads on December 14, 2023, 09:25:59 PM
Quote from: MU82 on December 14, 2023, 09:23:46 PM
There are always gonna be a couple/few games like this. We had some last year too. The key thing is coming out on the right side of 'em.

Sure, I wish we won by 20+. But in the end I'm just glad we won.

Same. Doesn't matter how good the favored team is there is always a buy game here and there that is like this. Actually was really impressed at the maturity of the team to close this one out.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: MUDPT on December 14, 2023, 09:27:27 PM
St. Thomas had 18 points the last 5:30 of the game, helped by a terrible flagrant call on Oso, a five point possession.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: Newsdreams on December 14, 2023, 09:28:30 PM
Quote from: MUDPT on December 14, 2023, 09:27:27 PM
St. Thomas had 18 points the last 5:30 of the game, helped by a terrible flagrant call on Oso, a five point possession.
It was a rule call.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: El Guerrero 2 on December 14, 2023, 09:28:34 PM
I really am not too worked up about that one. This was their Super Bowl and a buy game before Christmas for us. They shot the lights out, got some favorable whistles, and still went home with an L.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: PointWarrior on December 14, 2023, 09:29:15 PM
all end of game shots fell and a 5 pt play fell for a D3 talent team

Quote from: MUDPT on December 14, 2023, 09:27:27 PM
St. Thomas had 18 points the last 5:30 of the game, helped by a terrible flagrant call on Oso, a five point possession.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: El Guerrero 2 on December 14, 2023, 09:29:38 PM
Quote from: Newsdreams on December 14, 2023, 09:28:30 PM
It was a rule call.

That's a stupid effing rule then.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: MuggsyB on December 14, 2023, 09:30:13 PM
Quote from: real chili 83 on December 14, 2023, 09:17:45 PM
What an awful game.

Could have lost this easily.

Sh1t show.  Eff the trap game theory.

A win is a win.  Wasn't pretty, learn from the numerous errors made. 
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: Newsdreams on December 14, 2023, 09:31:11 PM
Quote from: El Guerrero 2 on December 14, 2023, 09:29:38 PM
That's a stupid effing rule then.
Hit to neck / head
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: El Guerrero 2 on December 14, 2023, 09:33:21 PM
Quote from: Newsdreams on December 14, 2023, 09:31:11 PM
Hit to neck / head

I repeat, stupid effing rule to give a guy 2 shots and the ball because he ran into the back of another guy's arm from behind.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: brewcity77 on December 14, 2023, 09:37:57 PM
In 4 months, it won't matter if we won by 5 or 25. We're not playing for a bid. Yes, that was nervy, but we got the win and we move on. They made some crazy bombs that kept them in it, proved they belong in the Big East more than some current tenants, but that's that and we move on. Happy to get the win, let's go win our three titles now.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: Newsdreams on December 14, 2023, 09:38:19 PM
Quote from: El Guerrero 2 on December 14, 2023, 09:33:21 PM
I repeat, stupid effing rule to give a guy 2 shots and the ball because he ran into the back of another guy's arm from behind.
Oso swung arm, not intentionally, but that is not the rule. Like the rule protecting a QB from hits to head.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: MU82 on December 14, 2023, 09:45:46 PM
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2023, 09:37:57 PM
In 4 months, it won't matter if we won by 5 or 25.

This.

Kentucky was in a home game like this against UNC-Wilmington; they lost. Northwestern was in a home game like this against the worst D1 basketball program of the last half-century; they lost. Etc etc etc.

There are numerous head-scratching losses by ranked teams every season. I'm glad this wasn't one of those for our favorite ranked team.

When we're in the Final Four, nobody's gonna be saying, "That St. Thomas game back in December was too close."
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: Biggie Clausen on December 14, 2023, 09:53:16 PM
Quote from: MU82 on December 14, 2023, 09:45:46 PM
This.

Kentucky was in a home game like this against UNC-Wilmington; they lost. Northwestern was in a home game like this against the worst D1 basketball program of the last half-century; they lost. Etc etc etc.

There are numerous head-scratching losses by ranked teams every season. I'm glad this wasn't one of those for our favorite ranked team.

When we're in the Final Four, nobody's gonna be saying, "That St. Thomas game back in December was too close."

I remember back in, what was it, 2007, when we won a Thanksgiving tournament by beating Duke.  Dominic James was raving about how good his grandma's food was going to taste.  We were probably ranked in the top 10, or close to it.  And then we went back home and lost to South Dakota.  So yeah, I'm fine with winning this one and forgetting about it.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: FairWeatherEagle on December 14, 2023, 09:58:49 PM
The reality is MU is great but not consistently great...so they are still just "real good" and can't win 6 in a row in March.  But change is possible and maybe over the season MU will become that truly great team that right now lives in our heads but not on the court.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: PGsHeroes32 on December 14, 2023, 10:01:09 PM
Quote from: FairWeatherEagle on December 14, 2023, 09:58:49 PM
The reality is MU is great but not consistently great...so they are still just "real good" and can't win 6 in a row in March.  But change is possible and maybe over the season MU will become that truly great team that right now lives in our heads but not on the court.

Who is consistently great???
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: MUfan12 on December 14, 2023, 10:12:57 PM
Quote from: BM1090 on December 14, 2023, 09:20:53 PM
It was bad, especially in the first half. But I thought last fifteen minutes was a product of St. Thomas making some tough, tough shots more than anything else.

Game should have been out of reach before they started hitting those prayers.

I love Shaka but this wasn't his best night. Playing Gold in the second half felt like a punishment. "You'll be BBQ chicken out there until you guard someone in space."

MU has to be a lot more intentional about where they send traps. Corners. Sidelines. Dead dribble. Teams are sniffing it out and just throwing over the top of it when they send two to the ball 35 feet away. It honestly felt like watching the Bucks with Griffin... They're putting themselves in rotation more than the opposition is forcing it.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: mug644 on December 14, 2023, 10:58:12 PM
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 14, 2023, 10:12:57 PM
Game should have been out of reach before they started hitting those prayers.

I love Shaka but this wasn't his best night. Playing Gold in the second half felt like a punishment. "You'll be BBQ chicken out there until you guard someone in space."

MU has to be a lot more intentional about where they send traps. Corners. Sidelines. Dead dribble. Teams are sniffing it out and just throwing over the top of it when they send two to the ball 35 feet away. It honestly felt like watching the Bucks with Griffin... They're putting themselves in rotation more than the opposition is forcing it.

I think the choice to stick with Jop seemed like more of a punishment. Maybe for me more than Jop. For him, it was an opportunity. Yet he continued to dribble into the lane without his head up, and continued to be unproductive. I felt punished (not that that should mean anything to Jop or Shaka). I'm still totally cheering for Jop to figure it out as a starter, but I'm not yet seeing it. He's a shooter, not a ball handler or back in guy. Even against St. Thomas.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: MuggsyB on December 14, 2023, 11:03:47 PM
I think we'll be okay.  I was very upset about a bunch of things tonight but have calmed down a bit.  That said,  I think Jop needs to check himself on the dribble drive.  I honestly wouldn't have a problem if he took a few 8 or 9 footers if that space is open. It's when he takes multiple dribbles and goes all the way to the rim that 9/10 times it ends in a complete disaster.  And on critical possessions we simply cannot have this anymore. 
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on December 14, 2023, 11:34:11 PM
MU finally beat a gap containment defense. And, Driscoll won't be reffing @ Providence.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: MUfan12 on December 14, 2023, 11:41:10 PM
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 14, 2023, 11:34:11 PM
MU finally beat a gap containment defense. And, Driscoll won't be reffing @ Providence.

God, he was bad tonight.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on December 14, 2023, 11:50:54 PM
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 14, 2023, 11:41:10 PM
God, he was bad tonight.

He is bad every night
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: withoutbias on December 15, 2023, 12:08:15 AM
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 14, 2023, 11:34:11 PM
MU finally beat a gap containment defense. And, Driscoll won't be reffing @ Providence.

Already beat UCLA.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 15, 2023, 12:51:46 AM
I'm not buying the narrative that St. Thomas was in it because they hit some prayers. They shot 76.2% from inside the arc. A bunch of unathletic 6'7" guys got to the rim at will. They punished us every time we went hard for a deflection and missed. Credit to us, we forced more TOs against them than any other team has this season...but we paid for it in 2P%.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: 4everwarriors on December 15, 2023, 03:41:28 AM
MU is still 1 player away from being a solid title pick. That player could be Joplin or Gold, but unless either or both get their chit together, I don't see it, hey?
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: brewcity77 on December 15, 2023, 04:19:04 AM
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 15, 2023, 12:51:46 AM
I'm not buying the narrative that St. Thomas was in it because they hit some prayers. They shot 76.2% from inside the arc. A bunch of unathletic 6'7" guys got to the rim at will. They punished us every time we went hard for a deflection and missed. Credit to us, we forced more TOs against them than any other team has this season...but we paid for it in 2P%.

We pushed it to 70-58 with 12 minutes left. 5 of their final 6 makes were from three. The reason it was close in the final minutes was absolutely those shots, most of which were deep and/or well contested.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: Hards Alumni on December 15, 2023, 06:22:52 AM
Quote from: mug644 on December 14, 2023, 10:58:12 PM
I think the choice to stick with Jop seemed like more of a punishment. Maybe for me more than Jop. For him, it was an opportunity. Yet he continued to dribble into the lane without his head up, and continued to be unproductive. I felt punished (not that that should mean anything to Jop or Shaka). I'm still totally cheering for Jop to figure it out as a starter, but I'm not yet seeing it. He's a shooter, not a ball handler or back in guy. Even against St. Thomas.

+1
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: tower912 on December 15, 2023, 06:28:01 AM
With Stevie out, there were no options.  7 man rotation.  Joplin had to play.   Sean and Ben had to play after a very poor opening stint off the bench and getting singled out.   The other options were the freshmen.   And as connected as the Tommies were, and as poorly as the frosh played against ND,  I doubt that would have been an improvement.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: lawdog77 on December 15, 2023, 06:35:26 AM
Quote from: tower912 on December 15, 2023, 06:28:01 AM
With Stevie out, there were no options.  7 man rotation.  Joplin had to play.   Sean and Ben had to play after a very poor opening stint off the bench and getting singled out.   The other options were the freshmen.   And as connected as the Tommies were, and as poorly as the frosh played against ND,  I doubt that would have been an improvement.
This might be the only downfall of playing such a tough non schedule. The freshmanhavent received a lot of playing time yet
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: tower912 on December 15, 2023, 06:37:10 AM
Fair.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: El Guerrero 2 on December 15, 2023, 06:39:24 AM
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 15, 2023, 12:51:46 AM
I'm not buying the narrative that St. Thomas was in it because they hit some prayers. They shot 76.2% from inside the arc. A bunch of unathletic 6'7" guys got to the rim at will. They punished us every time we went hard for a deflection and missed. Credit to us, we forced more TOs against them than any other team has this season...but we paid for it in 2P%.

It wasn't flukey shots, they're just a well coached team that takes what the defense gives. And last night we were giving up the 3 on the extra pass. This

They didn't take a 2 point FG unless it was a layup. And they only shot 21 twos at all; they certainly weren't getting to the rim "at will." This game was about the 34 threes they shot, not the 21 twos.

If you compare their season long shot chart to ours, it is remarkably similar: https://cbbanalytics.com/tools/shot-charts





Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: RubyWiscy on December 15, 2023, 07:15:55 AM
It is unbelievable that MU even gets one vote in the top 25 with how crappy a team they are. St. Thomas took them to the wire! MU doesn't have a single player on it's roster that would get 2 minutes off the bench on that squad. Except maybe Al Amadou. I like him. He would probably start.

Give me a break!
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: willie warrior on December 15, 2023, 07:18:05 AM
Quote from: real chili 83 on December 14, 2023, 09:20:59 PM
We are a ton better than this.
I thought we were also. Need to start showing it.
Defense was terrible.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 15, 2023, 07:18:56 AM
Quote from: willie warrior on December 15, 2023, 07:18:05 AM
I thought we were also. Need to start showing it.
Defense was terrible.

Wilbur-

Where would you rate this loss in the scale of all-time losses?
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: El Guerrero 2 on December 15, 2023, 07:28:52 AM
Quote from: RubyWiscy on December 15, 2023, 07:15:55 AM
It is unbelievable that MU even gets one vote in the top 25 with how crappy a team they are. St. Thomas took them to the wire! MU doesn't have a single player on it's roster that would get 2 minutes off the bench on that squad. Except maybe Al Amadou. I like him. He would probably start.

Give me a break!

Lemme guess: Stout grad?
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: tower912 on December 15, 2023, 07:33:41 AM
Quote from: El Guerrero 2 on December 15, 2023, 07:28:52 AM
Lemme guess: Stout grad?
Fat guy in a little coat?

And I am pretty sure he was indulging in sarcasm.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: Herman Cain on December 15, 2023, 07:38:21 AM
Was a fun game. Felt like a tournament game with the underdog in it till the end. Good experience for MU, that our guys didn't crap the bed under the circumstances.

Our free throws done the stretch were solid and necessary. Hope we keep those positive  memories in tact in big games.

Would enjoy playing the Tommies again next year . Keeps our squad on the alert.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: DoctorV on December 15, 2023, 07:49:22 AM
Quote from: Herman Cain on December 15, 2023, 07:38:21 AM
Was a fun game. Felt like a tournament game with the underdog in it till the end. Good experience for MU, that our guys didn't crap the bed under the circumstances.

Our free throws done the stretch were solid and necessary. Hope we keep those positive  memories in tact in big games.

Would enjoy playing the Tommies again next year . Keeps our squad on the alert.

Agreed. I thought that was a pretty enjoyable game for a game I didn't have any expectations for.
Sometimes it's ok to be challenged by the little guy, as long as you figure out a way to come out on top.

On to Providence, that's a big one
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: Hards Alumni on December 15, 2023, 07:51:27 AM
Quote from: El Guerrero 2 on December 15, 2023, 07:28:52 AM
Lemme guess: Stout grad?

Only made it a year, too much partying.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: Eye on December 15, 2023, 08:03:36 AM
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 14, 2023, 11:50:54 PM
He is bad every night

Hard to improve on these two comments.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: Daniel on December 15, 2023, 08:37:28 AM
Jop by dribbling with head down has no idea where the defenders are which is why they can poke the ball feee from him, or he dribbles into so much traffic he loses the ball himself.   If he can figure this out, he is powerful enough to take on a defend through contact.   But he has to know where they are.   The coaches should be working in that with him.  If he can be both an outside threat and driver, wow ... will be hard to stop.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: 21Jumpstreet on December 15, 2023, 08:41:04 AM
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 15, 2023, 07:18:56 AM
Wilbur-

Where would you rate this loss in the scale of all-time losses?

Need this chuckle this morning, well done
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: tower912 on December 15, 2023, 08:42:53 AM
Quote from: El Guerrero 2 on December 14, 2023, 09:33:21 PM
I repeat, stupid effing rule to give a guy 2 shots and the ball because he ran into the back of another guy's arm from behind.
If the roles were reversed, you would be screaming for that call.  Oso go his arm up making himself available for the in bounds pass.   Clearly no malicious intent, but also clearly hit the defender in the head/neck.  The rule is pretty straightforward and so was the caĺl.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: 21Jumpstreet on December 15, 2023, 08:47:26 AM
Quote from: Daniel on December 15, 2023, 08:37:28 AM
Jop by dribbling with head down has no idea where the defenders are which is why they can poke the ball feee from him, or he dribbles into so much traffic he loses the ball himself.   If he can figure this out, he is powerful enough to take on a defend through contact.   But he has to know where they are.   The coaches should be working in that with him.  If he can be both an outside threat and driver, wow ... will be hard to stop.

He's also become incredibly easy to defend, they know exactly what he is going to do, exactly when he turns his back, where he stops, and that he will be stuck. This makes it increasingly more difficult for him to successfully put the ball on the floor leading to even more bad turnovers and decisions. He should only take open threes, which I know makes him easy to guard, but he can't turn the ball over and make poor decisions.

Last night I think Shaka kept him in because he wanted Jop to gain some confidence. Jop is STRUGGLING, and you could see all the guys (less so TyKo, but his MO is to get after a guy) trying to pump him up, multiple times Oso gave him the come on chest slap, Shaka had his arm around him a couple times coming out of time outs. Jop is not my kind of player, but he is essential to our sustained success this year. Unless he transfers, he isn't leaving next year, so it's either bury him on the bench and lose him for good, or dig deep and try to get him mentally back in it and to believe he can be a big contributor to the season.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: tower912 on December 15, 2023, 08:51:16 AM
With Stevie out, who could Shaka have substituted in for Joplin?  Also, after the Wisconsin game, Shaka indicated that Joplin was going to have to play through it.  All of this is to say that Joplin will need to continue to learn and grow.   And that the team needs him to do so.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: Scoop Snoop on December 15, 2023, 08:53:58 AM
Quote from: tower912 on December 15, 2023, 08:42:53 AM
If the roles were reversed, you would be screaming for that call.  Oso go his arm up making himself available for the in bounds pass.   Clearly no malicious intent, but also clearly hit the defender in the head/neck.  The rule is pretty straightforward and so was the caĺl.

All that you said is true, but El G repeated his statement, so there's that.  :)
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: DoctorV on December 15, 2023, 09:08:26 AM
Quote from: tower912 on December 15, 2023, 08:42:53 AM
If the roles were reversed, you would be screaming for that call.  Oso go his arm up making himself available for the in bounds pass.   Clearly no malicious intent, but also clearly hit the defender in the head/neck.  The rule is pretty straightforward and so was the caĺl.

Yup, it was the right call.

The block call along the team bench on that inbounds that sent Ty to the line I thought was the wrong call, and it looked like Shaka might have worried the same.
Thought that shoulda been called against Kolek for being out of control, got away with one in a key moment IMO
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: pbiflyer on December 15, 2023, 09:12:21 AM
And if they would not have called the flagrant on them earlier, I would have been okay with that as well.

BTW, it looked like Oso hit him well below where the guy was grabbing his throat. (But still no issue with the call).
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: MU82 on December 15, 2023, 09:17:16 AM
Quote from: pbiflyer on December 15, 2023, 09:12:21 AM
And if they would not have called the flagrant on them earlier, I would have been okay with that as well.

Yep. I knew it was gonna be a flagrant because they called the borderline flagrant earlier that benefited us.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: Scoop Snoop on December 15, 2023, 09:18:47 AM
Quote from: DoctorV on December 15, 2023, 09:08:26 AM
Yup, it was the right call.

The block call along the team bench on that inbounds that sent Ty to the line I thought was the wrong call, and it looked like Shaka might have worried the same.
Thought that shoulda been called against Kolek for being out of control, got away with one in a key moment IMO

My thoughts also Doc. Whew! We got away with that one.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: JakeBarnes on December 15, 2023, 10:12:41 AM
Quote from: MU82 on December 15, 2023, 09:17:16 AM
Yep. I knew it was gonna be a flagrant because they called the borderline flagrant earlier that benefited us.

If there was a flagrant in the game last night, it was the one on whoever dragged Ross to the ground a play or so before. Looked like an NFL drop tackle.

Not the best game, but it could have been much worse. ST guys felt like they all got coached by Rowsey before the game--played free and shot quickly. Nevada Smith probably secretly loved how they played. Feels this team plays well against top tier teams, but struggles a bit when they think they can get by with just pure athleticism. Ceiling is still the team that blew out Kansas. I imagine Shaka and co will remind them that they can't take anything for granted after this performance.

On Jop: Would love to see Jop and a few others with a slightly quicker trigger like some of the ST players had. The play he got fouled on while driving is what he needs to do, if he drives at all. None of the back down stuff. Just go downhill and get contact and/or layup. He's a little in his head right now and trying to do too much.

Stevie was missed. He'd have drastically changed the game with on-ball defense and just injecting energy. Get healthy soon, Stewie.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: El Guerrero 2 on December 15, 2023, 10:19:52 AM
Quote from: tower912 on December 15, 2023, 08:42:53 AM
If the roles were reversed, you would be screaming for that call.  Oso go his arm up making himself available for the in bounds pass.   Clearly no malicious intent, but also clearly hit the defender in the head/neck.  The rule is pretty straightforward and so was the caĺl.

You're misrepresenting what the rule is. There simply is no automatic rule that contact to head/the neck is a flagrant 1.

Look at the NCAA's description: "A flagrant 1 foul is two shots and the ball and that means excessive in nature or unnecessary or avoidable, uncalled for or not required by the circumstances of the play." https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/article/2022-03-19/mens-college-basketball-rule-changes-know-about-season.

Was Oso putting his arm out to catch an inbounds pass excessive in nature? Unnecessary? Avoidable? Uncalled for? Not required by the circumstances of the play?

If they wanted to give him a common foul for it, fine. But in no way shape or form was it a flagrant 1, regardless of where his arm happened to hit the player he couldn't see behind him. The actual NCAA rule is below.

***

1. Flagrant 1 personal foul. A flagrant 1 personal foul is a personal
foul that is deemed excessive in nature (unwarranted or too much)
and/or unnecessary (avoidable, uncalled for or not required by the
circumstances of the play), but is not based solely on the severity of the
act. Examples include, but are not limited to:
a) Causing excessive or unnecessary contact with an opponent;
b) Contact with an opponent that is not a legitimate attempt to play the
ball or player;
c) Pushing or holding a player from behind to prevent a score.
Depending on the severity of the contact and the potential for injury,
this type of foul could rise to the level of a flagrant 2 foul;
d) Fouling a player clearly away from the ball who is not directly
involved with the play, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock
from starting;
e) Contact with a player making a throw-in;
f) Illegal contact caused by swinging of an elbow that is deemed
excessive or unnecessary but does not rise to the level of a flagrant 2
personal foul (See Rule 4-18.7);
g) Illegal contact caused by a player hooking an opponent over or under
the arm and which may lead the official to believe the contact was
caused by the opponent. Depending on the nature of the contact, or
the result of the contact, this foul could be considered a flagrant 2
foul; and
h) Contact with an opponent that is not the result of a normal
basketball play. "Normal basketball play" is defined as any activity by
a player, including incidental contact, which is generally accepted as
that which occurs in a basketball game when the player is attempting
to make a legal offensive or defensive play
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: El Guerrero 2 on December 15, 2023, 10:20:32 AM
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on December 15, 2023, 08:53:58 AM
All that you said is true, but El G repeated his statement, so there's that.  :)

See above. Didn't think I had to actually pull out the rule book.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 15, 2023, 11:27:15 AM
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2023, 04:19:04 AM
We pushed it to 70-58 with 12 minutes left. 5 of their final 6 makes were from three. The reason it was close in the final minutes was absolutely those shots, most of which were deep and/or well contested.

Which only mattered because the Tommies were within 5 with 8.5 minutes left due to their dominance of 2P% At that point,  St. Thomas was 14/18 (77.8%) from 2 and 8/25 (32%) from 3.

Yes,  the crazy barrage of threes at the end helped them nearly get the win.  But for over 75% of the game, they played us near even due to their ability to get easy shots over and over again. Im sure thatll be a focus for shaka at the next film session
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: Scoop Snoop on December 15, 2023, 11:43:57 AM
Quote from: El Guerrero 2 on December 15, 2023, 10:20:32 AM
See above. Didn't think I had to actually pull out the rule book.

Thanks! Since I think Oso knew the guy was right behind him and reached backwards, my guess is that the refs applied h when they decided to call an F1. Regardless, your opinion is worthless in the narrow sense that the decision was made and will never be reversed. You were not a ref in last night's game.

Your obsession with this is really very character revealing, and not in a good way. I could understand a Tommie fan complaining that Kolek should have been called for charging, as that call in MU's favor call may well have eventually changed the final outcome.

Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: wadesworld on December 15, 2023, 11:45:53 AM
Charges are trash. Players sliding out of nowhere just to flop to the ground should be a block 100% of the time. Especially when the ball handler is running out towards the other team's basket.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: NotAnAlum on December 15, 2023, 11:51:52 AM
MU struggles when teams are able to take away the P&R which their sagging D did.  I'm not a big fan of relying on 3s but if they stop the P&R and the team is schooled not to take midrange shots the 3 is all that's left.  Thought TKO needed to shoot more 3s.  Before he started shooting free throws he only had 6 points.
All of this said if you score 82 you ought to comfortably beat one of the slowest teams in D1.  When a team has lesser players we might be better off simply staying if front of them than all these scrambling rotation that always end up with someone with an open 3.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: El Guerrero 2 on December 15, 2023, 11:55:42 AM
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on December 15, 2023, 11:43:57 AM
Thanks! Since I think Oso knew the guy was right behind him and reached backwards, my guess is that the refs applied h when they decided to call an F1. Regardless, your opinion is worthless in the narrow sense that the decision was made and will never be reversed. You were not a ref in last night's game.

Your obsession with this is really very character revealing, and not in a good way. I could understand a Tommie fan complaining that Kolek should have been called for charging, as that call in MU's favor call may well have eventually changed the final outcome.

"You don't understand the rules of basketball. Quit complaining."

***proven wrong***

"Your opinion is worthless because you're not an official. Why do you care if officials get calls right? [irrelevant point about a correctly called block against STU] Oh, and you're a bad person."

Very persuasive.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: Scoop Snoop on December 15, 2023, 12:04:40 PM
Quote from: El Guerrero 2 on December 15, 2023, 11:55:42 AM
"You don't understand the rules of basketball. Quit complaining."

***proven wrong***

"Your opinion is worthless because you're not an official. Why do you care if officials get calls right? [irrelevant point about a correctly called block against STU] Oh, and you're a bad person."

Very persuasive.

Have a nice day. And take your meds.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 15, 2023, 12:05:30 PM
Quote from: El Guerrero 2 on December 15, 2023, 06:39:24 AM
It wasn't flukey shots, they're just a well coached team that takes what the defense gives. And last night we were giving up the 3 on the extra pass. This

They didn't take a 2 point FG unless it was a layup. And they only shot 21 twos at all; they certainly weren't getting to the rim "at will." This game was about the 34 threes they shot, not the 21 twos.

If you compare their season long shot chart to ours, it is remarkably similar: https://cbbanalytics.com/tools/shot-charts

They shot 76.1% from 2. Their second best 2P% performance was 70% against a D3 team. Their third best was 60% against sub 300 UWM.

It's okay to point out that we didn't defend the two well. They switched until they got Sean Jones on a big and posted him up.  They drove right at Gold anytime he was on the floor.  They were smart and executed well.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 15, 2023, 12:09:20 PM
We're arguing that flagrant? I've never seen that not get called
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: jfp61 on December 15, 2023, 12:11:24 PM
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 15, 2023, 12:05:30 PM
They shot 76.1% from 2. Their second best 2P% performance was 70% against a D3 team. Their third best was 60% against sub 300 UWM.

It's okay to point out that we didn't defend the two well. They switched until they got Sean Jones on a big and posted him up.  They drove right at Gold anytime he was on the floor.  They were smart and executed well.

We didn't defend as poorly as the numbers say, but we didn't defend well.

First, Stevie Mitchell is our best defender and wasn't playing. Playing him stops opponents from scoring nearly 3 points per 100 possessions to our defense. And adding him gets NCAA average defenders like Joplin and Sean off of the court.

Second, we ran them off the line decently well, St. Thomas was just disiplined and didn't take the bait. They hardly ever forced up 2s. And when they had too they were able to draw contact well enough. Either that or they just took deeper 3 pointers.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: El Guerrero 2 on December 15, 2023, 12:33:56 PM
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on December 15, 2023, 12:04:40 PM
Have a nice day. And take your meds.

I don't think ad hominems are the mic drop you appear to think they are.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: MU82 on December 15, 2023, 01:01:52 PM
St. Thomas is really well-coached. On a few occasions, I found myself admiring the way they were playing. They totally maximized what they could do against a more talented team, and it just about resulted in a big upset.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: El Guerrero 2 on December 15, 2023, 01:06:26 PM
Quote from: MU82 on December 15, 2023, 01:01:52 PM
St. Thomas is really well-coached. On a few occasions, I found myself admiring the way they were playing. They totally maximized what they could do against a more talented team, and it just about resulted in a big upset.

Agreed. Their guys knew what they were doing out there and weren't intimidated by the NBA arena like Notre Dame was. Consistently passed up good shots to get great shots.

It's dumb they don't have a chance to make the tourney.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: Tyler COLEk on December 15, 2023, 01:08:23 PM
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 15, 2023, 03:41:28 AM
MU is still 1 player away from being a solid title pick. That player could be Joplin or Gold, but unless either or both get their chit together, I don't see it, hey?

Taking a quick pause to point out what a cringe-worthy shtick it is to end all your posts on muscoop.com with "hey?".
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on December 15, 2023, 01:20:52 PM
The Tommies came to win. MU came not to lose. Next game up.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: Goose on December 15, 2023, 01:35:59 PM
4ever

MU could be one player away from being top 3-4 contender in the tournament and time will tell. I do think they have 8-9 guys to be top 3-4 contender if they are hitting on all cylinders. To be honest, I like our chances with the 8-9 guys over having one more guy. Joplin is going to better days and probably more better days than bad days based off watching him play 2+ years. I still believe that Ben Gold is going to have a very big fan club during his college career and think it happens sooner than later.




Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: willie warrior on December 15, 2023, 01:41:59 PM
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 15, 2023, 03:41:28 AM
MU is still 1 player away from being a solid title pick. That player could be Joplin or Gold, but unless either or both get their chit together, I don't see it, hey?
Agreed.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 15, 2023, 01:49:31 PM
Quote from: willie warrior on December 15, 2023, 01:41:59 PM
Agreed.

Thanks, Wellington
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: Scoop Snoop on December 15, 2023, 02:15:10 PM
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 15, 2023, 01:20:52 PM
The Tommies came to win. MU came not to lose. Next game up.

Ouch!
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: Newsdreams on December 16, 2023, 11:09:45 AM
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 14, 2023, 11:50:54 PM
He is bad every night
Hey, give him credit for being consistent.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: muwarrior69 on December 16, 2023, 11:22:21 AM
Quote from: real chili 83 on December 14, 2023, 09:17:45 PM
What an awful game.

Could have lost this easily.

Sh1t show.  Eff the trap game theory.

Nah, UW was the sh!t show and you can always the scrape sh!t off with a good scooper.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: real chili 83 on December 16, 2023, 12:06:26 PM
Quote from: muwarrior69 on December 16, 2023, 11:22:21 AM
Nah, UW was the sh!t show and you can always the scrape sh!t off with a good scooper.

Agreed on Bucky.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: MU82 on December 16, 2023, 12:49:01 PM
What's worse than a "Sh1t show"?

Sincerely,
Kentucky and Northwestern fans

And what's even worse than that?

Sincerely,
Last season's Purdue fans
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: real chili 83 on December 16, 2023, 08:44:46 PM
Quote from: MU82 on December 16, 2023, 12:49:01 PM
What's worse than a "Sh1t show"?

Sincerely,
Kentucky and Northwestern fans

And what's even worse than that?

Sincerely,
Last season's Purdue fans

"Technically", you are absolutely correct.

I have higher standards for our Warriors. 

ND sucks.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: MU82 on December 17, 2023, 09:28:19 AM
I have extremely high standards for this season's team, rc83. I literally expect our guys to win every game.

I didn't predict us to go undefeated, because that would have been unrealistic, but as each game approaches, I expect us to win it.

Unless we have a serious injury or some other unforeseeable issue, I will expect us to win at Creighton, at UConn and every other game on our Big East schedule. I will expect us to win the BET, and then I will expect us to win each of our NCAAT games.

I am a realist, though, and I've seen thousands of basketball games in my old life, so I know that sh!t happens during games and during seasons. So I wouldn't be surprised if we lose a tough road game to a great opponent. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if we lose a home game to a team we're better than. I won't like it, but I wouldn't be surprised by it. UConn had a 2-6 stretch last season. 2-6! Talk about Sh1t shows!

We didn't play well Thursday. The opponent played out of their arses. We survived. I agree with those who say it had the feel of a 15/2 or 14/3 NCAAT game.

We've seen worse, and I won't be surprised if we see worse later this season. I just hope it doesn't happen in March. I don't think it will.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: StateStreetMission on December 17, 2023, 10:06:36 AM
Quote from: MU82 on December 17, 2023, 09:28:19 AM
I have extremely high standards for this season's team, rc83. I literally expect our guys to win every game.

I didn't predict us to go undefeated, because that would have been unrealistic, but as each game approaches, I expect us to win it.

Unless we have a serious injury or some other unforeseeable issue, I will expect us to win at Creighton, at UConn and every other game on our Big East schedule. I will expect us to win the BET, and then I will expect us to win each of our NCAAT games.

I am a realist, though, and I've seen thousands of basketball games in my old life, so I know that sh!t happens during games and during seasons. So I wouldn't be surprised if we lose a tough road game to a great opponent. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if we lose a home game to a team we're better than. I won't like it, but I wouldn't be surprised by it. UConn had a 2-6 stretch last season. 2-6! Talk about Sh1t shows!

We didn't play well Thursday. The opponent played out of their arses. We survived. I agree with those who say it had the feel of a 15/2 or 14/3 NCAAT game.

We've seen worse, and I won't be surprised if we see worse later this season. I just hope it doesn't happen in March. I don't think it will.

Come on, man
Your first paragraph started with strong conviction.
Your final one... not so much.

Just kidding, 82
I take the same approach as you.



Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: goldeneagle91114 on December 18, 2023, 05:14:48 PM
finally got a chance to watch the St. Thomas game (was traveling last week). A lot was said about our poor defensive performance. However, it appears it may been due to the defensive scheme from the coaching staff. Most of the shots we gave up were due to doubling the ball handler. St. Thomas did a great job handling the pressure and finding the open man. It didn't appear to be our guys missing their man.

maybe someone who knows ball better than I may be able to provide additional context, but i don't remember doubling as much as we did in this game.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: tower912 on December 18, 2023, 05:33:14 PM
My thoughts on the defense are that Stevie was out.  And MU played Gold, Joplin, and Oso together against a 5 out offense.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: goldeneagle91114 on December 18, 2023, 05:45:57 PM
Quote from: tower912 on December 18, 2023, 05:33:14 PM
My thoughts on the defense are that Stevie was out.  And MU played Gold, Joplin, and Oso together against a 5 out offense.

Agree that Stevie's absence makes a HUGE difference. I'm just surprised that we continued to double.
Title: Re: Sh1t show
Post by: MuggsyB on December 18, 2023, 06:20:24 PM
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on December 18, 2023, 05:45:57 PM
Agree that Stevie's absence makes a HUGE difference. I'm just surprised that we continued to double.

Your point is well taken. 
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