So Tyler is the best PG in America, full stop.
Tyler, however, has been a less effective and efficient passer this season.
We came into the season talking about the all-time assist leader. We came in talking about the possibility of 10 APG.
Assists are down about 2 per game, which is quite the drop. He hasn't had a single game of 10 assists this season.
So, how come? And follow up, does it even matter? Extra follow up, is it by design?
I'll admit I don't know, and that's why this thread.
I will say he's better in all other facets, much better.
If I had to guess, and I want others thoughts, I'll say that
1- I think it does matter, and I think it'll change as the season gets deeper.
2- I think it's partly by design- I see a lot of non TyKo sets on the ball. He's playing much more off the ball, and Kam/Oso seem to be starting a lot of sets. My guess is that this is a Shaka wrinkle, and that he's conserving Tyler for the deeper portion of the season, as well as getting him in killer scorer mode- like we saw tonight- for games where teams sag and take away his most elite skill.
3- How come- well this is three parts.
A) shooters not gone shoot just yet, a lot of misses on his passes. B) off the ball a lot more by design, see above. C) his killer scorer mentality is developing before our eyes, so less 'do everything to pass and find the open guy' as we've seen in the past.
Thoughts?
Quote from: DoctorV on December 06, 2023, 10:08:58 PM
So Tyler is the best PG in America, full stop.
Tyler, however, has been a less effective and efficient passer this season.
We came into the season talking about the all-time assist leader. We came in talking about the possibility of 10 APG.
Assists are down about 2 per game, which is quite the drop. He hasn't had a single game of 10 assists this season.
So, how come? And follow up, does it even matter? Extra follow up, is it by design?
I'll admit I don't know, and that's why this thread.
I will say he's better in all other facets, much better.
If I had to guess, and I want others thoughts, I'll say that
1- I think it does matter, and I think it'll change as the season gets deeper.
2- I think it's partly by design- I see a lot of non TyKo sets on the ball. He's playing much more off the ball, and Kam/Oso seem to be starting a lot of sets. My guess is that this is a Shaka wrinkle, and that he's conserving Tyler for the deeper portion of the season, as well as getting him in killer scorer mode- like we saw tonight- for games where teams sag and take away his most elite skill.
3- How come- well this is three parts.
A) shooters not gone shoot just yet, a lot of misses on his passes. B) off the ball a lot more by design, see above. C) his killer scorer mentality is developing before our eyes, so less 'do everything to pass and find the open guy' as we've seen in the past.
Thoughts?
He should have probably had 11 tonight. Guys are dropping passes and missing shots. I also think teams are making a concerted effort to stop the Tyko/Oso two man game. And yes, he's playing off the ball more.
Doctor
I think he is playing more off the ball by choice. He was not a PG for most of his playing career and I think he wants to play more non PG. IMO, he could play center and I would still love him.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 06, 2023, 10:12:50 PM
He should have probably had 11 tonight. Guys are dropping passes abd missing shots. I also think teams are making a concerted effort to stop the Tyko/Oso two man game.
Fair, and many have talked about how Oso is missing passes from Tyler that he shouldn't miss.
It's a 2 man game though, and Oso is pretty damn smart.
I think Tyler is a bit rushed, slinging em a bit too much or too fast and not delaying the delivery enough.
There was a play today on a 3 or even 4 on 1 where Tyler had the ball and gave it to Kam way too damn soon and Kam got swatted baaaad right at the rim.
Last season, TyKo gives that pass right in a position to score.
Quote from: Goose on December 06, 2023, 10:15:03 PM
Doctor
I think he is playing more off the ball by choice. He was not a PG for most of his playing career and I think he wants to play more non PG. IMO, he could play center and I would still love him.
Yea Goose, same. He has the guts and grit to fill it up anywhere on the court.
That said, he's not the coach, Shaka is, and Shaka has a National Title to win.
Maybe it's a case of Kam wants to run more point and TyKo wants to play more 2 and Shaka sees that at this point in the season it just makes sense to keep them both happy and diversified?
Or maybe I'm over thinking it and everyone is dropping his passes?
I just don't see the same passing PG, even though I see a better overall player.
BTW this is probably improving BOTH TyKo and Kams draft stock, so maybe there is some of that
Kam's passing had improved significantly. Maybe he and Shaka should have a discussion with Jop about moving the rock off the bounce?
Less assists is obvious. He hasnt forgetten how to pass nor is he doing it worse. The reasons why are clear
1. Guys literally are not catching passes.
2. Hes upped his ability as a scoring tenfold since Feb of last year and it allows him to hunt buckets which is just as good
3. More off ball, part to let him rest. Part to let him focus on buckets. But also because players like SJ are quite literally a -1000000000000 on the court if they dont have the ball in their hands to set up the O
TK had elite passes tonight. I said it in the game thread, I almost wonder if because hes gotten so good at scoring our players have randomly forgot how good he is at passing. Oso especially is not ready frequently.
Doctor
I hate to say it, but getting guys to the next level means a lot to Shaka and the program. I think Shaka knows what Kolek has meant to his career as a coach and is giving him a ton of rope.
I do not think this is overstating things, but we may never see another Tyler Kolek for a very long time. I am 60y and doubt if I will ever see anything close to him again. The kid is beyond special as a college player and everything I love in player.
Just want to say again, I love Ben Gold as a player!! He is the next guy to make a long lasting mark at MU.
Kolek is wonderful, a generational talent for our alma mater. I wouldn't change a thing he (and Shaka) are doing.
Quote from: Goose on December 06, 2023, 10:26:37 PM
Doctor
I hate to say it, but getting guys to the next level means a lot to Shaka and the program. I think Shaka knows what Kolek has meant to his career as a coach and is giving him a ton of rope.
I do not think this is overstating things, but we may never see another Tyler Kolek for a very long time. I am 60y and doubt if I will ever see anything close to him again. The kid is beyond special as a college player and everything I love in player.
Just want to say again, I love Ben Gold as a player!! He is the next guy to make a long lasting mark at MU.
Goose, I love Tyler but I'm not there yet. I'm really glad you're there, but I want to see March and April.
I also love how much you love Ben, and makes me more excited about him in the future.
Someone get the kid to guard someone in soace though, give me that lateral quickness!
I think he will be a great shooter/scorer and rebounder in his career, showing his early chops as a big 6th man this March
Doctor
I am 100% about winning and winning big. I want Kolek to deliver in March to put his place in MU basketball history as much as his Dad does. That said, he changed MU basketball in a similar way that George Thompson changed MU basketball.
He is the most important recruit in a half century and every fan should look at where things were when he arrived and where they are now. Enjoy the ride.
As for Gold, I would bet my money in him. tower was high on Kolek early and I think I was there early as well, and I am higher on Gold. Different high and expectations, but he will be a major part of MU future success.
Quote from: Goose on December 06, 2023, 10:46:47 PM
Doctor
I am 100% about winning and winning big. I want Kolek to deliver in March to put his place in MU basketball history as much as his Dad does. That said, he changed MU basketball in a similar way that George Thompson changed MU basketball.
He is the most important recruit in a half century and every fan should look at where things were when he arrived and where they are now. Enjoy the ride.
As for Gold, I would bet my money in him. tower was high on Kolek early and I think I was there early as well, and I am higher on Gold. Different high and expectations, but he will be a major part of MU future success.
Goose,
A lefty Steve Nash?
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 06, 2023, 10:49:26 PM
Goose,
A lefty Steve Nash?
No. Nash is a HoFer, an MVP in the NBA.
Quote from: Jockey on December 06, 2023, 10:56:18 PM
No. Nash is a HoFer, an MVP in the NBA.
No one thought he would be coming out of Santa Clara.
Muggsy
I have noticed a bit more posting from a couple of the mods of scoop and I suggest you get their take on Kolek being a left handed Nash. I am just a simple guy that goes by eye test as my first judgement. There is no doubt in my mind that they can offer more insight into your question.
On a sidebar, pretty good win, huh? I enjoyed the game and I want to thank a fellow scooper for the tickets.
Quote from: Goose on December 06, 2023, 11:06:31 PM
Muggsy
I have noticed a bit more posting from a couple of the mods of scoop and I suggest you get their take on Kolek being a left handed Nash. I am just a simple guy that goes by eye test as my first judgement. There is no doubt in my mind that they can offer more insight into your question.
On a sidebar, pretty good win, huh? I enjoyed the game and I want to thank a fellow scooper for the tickets.
Definitely a good win. Eviscerate ND, then dispose of St. Tommy. 9-2 would be acceptable heading into BEast play.
Muggsy
You ever get back for a game? We need you in MKE for a game.
Tyler's assists are down because Shaka is intentionally playing him off ball a lot and our team has sucked at shooting. Just watch how often. Tyler gives the ball off to another guard or Oso to bring the ball up court.
Quote from: Goose on December 06, 2023, 11:06:31 PM
Muggsy
I have noticed a bit more posting from a couple of the mods of scoop and I suggest you get their take on Kolek being a left handed Nash. I am just a simple guy that goes by eye test as my first judgement. There is no doubt in my mind that they can offer more insight into your question.
On a sidebar, pretty good win, huh? I enjoyed the game and I want to thank a fellow scooper for the tickets.
My take is that from the moment we laid eyes on him at Marquette you could tell that Tyler was one of the best passers we've ever seen.
Then you could quickly tell that he was one of the best readers of the game we've ever seen.
I'm a harsh critic though, I demanded more. I wanted to see him be able to shoot, and not only shoot but also be able to score in a variety of ways in order to make himself and Marquette elite.
I never expected that turnaround the way we've seen it, but it's here.
You also can't understate the intangibles- his rebounding, his grit, his toughness.
His ability to cry when he fails.
He's got it all. And he may lack athleticism but he makes up for it with his old man's game, his elite moxie.
If those NBA teams pass on him next summer they are missing a chromosome, but I'm fairly certain they won't pass on him if he stays in.
Here's to hoping that our All American cuts em down and heads for the Association, or comes back and wins it all next year.
Imagining Kam and Tyler back as super seniors next season has all preseason #1 pick predictions on lock. I won't wish it, because that would likely mean we failed this year, and Marquette won't.
Quote from: Goose on December 06, 2023, 11:14:48 PM
Muggsy
You ever get back for a game? We need you in MKE for a game.
It's been awhile since I moved to the West Coast. i tend to get more nervous attending the games as well.
Muggsy
I am part of a secret group on scoop and we would LOVE to have you in for a game and a "summit".
Kolek is just a joy to watch.... And now he does it all. There isn't another guard on the team who can even to begin to fill Kolek's shoes at this time. He is simply amazing
Quote from: DoctorV on December 06, 2023, 11:17:51 PM
My take is that from the moment we laid eyes on him at Marquette you could tell that Tyler was one of the best passers we've ever seen.
Then you could quickly tell that he was one of the best readers of the game we've ever seen.
I'm a harsh critic though, I demanded more. I wanted to see him be able to shoot, and not only shoot but also be able to score in a variety of ways in order to make himself and Marquette elite.
I never expected that turnaround the way we've seen it, but it's here.
You also can't understate the intangibles- his rebounding, his grit, his toughness.
His ability to cry when he fails.
He's got it all. And he may lack athleticism but he makes up for it with his old man's game, his elite moxie.
If those NBA teams pass on him next summer they are missing a chromosome, but I'm fairly certain they won't pass on him if he stays in.
Here's to hoping that our All American cuts em down and heads for the Association, or comes back and wins it all next year.
Imagining Kam and Tyler back as super seniors next season has all preseason #1 pick predictions on lock. I won't wish it, because that would likely mean we failed this year, and Marquette won't.
My only real question mark is can he defend on the next level. I think the Brunson comparison is pretty interesting although Jalen. Is a better scorer off the dribble and Tyko is a bette passer. Brunson also has elite footwork and can get to any spot he wants. The pure PG position doesn't really exist any more in tbe NBA. TyKo has shown he can score the ball as well as dime drop.
Quote from: Goose on December 06, 2023, 11:24:14 PM
Muggsy
I am part of a secret group on scoop and we would LOVE to have you in for a game and a "summit".
I appreciate that. I will certainly let you know if I'm ever in town for a game.
Quote from: Goose on December 06, 2023, 11:24:14 PM
Muggsy
I am part of a secret group on scoop and we would LOVE to have you in for a game and a "summit".
Plus 1000
Hashtag get Muggsy to a game.
Heck, I'd pay his ticket if he DM'ed me and said he wanted to come one to one, including this saturday
Quote from: DoctorV on December 06, 2023, 11:40:33 PM
Plus 1000
Hashtag get Muggsy to a game.
Heck, I'd pay his ticket if he DM'ed me and said he wanted to come one to one, including this saturday
You are all too kind. I can't stand ND. :)
I thought playing TKo off the ball and letting Sean run things was a huge mistake against Wisconsin. Bygones. Defenses are playing the angles to Oso differently when TKo drives. As well as some choosing to just not help and make him a scorer. Finally, Sean and Stevie are shooting what from 3?
Shaka in the post game last night said they encouraged him to shoot more if the defense was going under the PnR like Wisconsin was. Funny moment last night. Must have been up by 25, but he had the ball on the wing and was ready for an Oso screen, but Ben was still in the corner. He passed and then screamed at Ben. Dude competes all of the time.
Some great quotes from Kolek after the game, especially about Shaka wanting to beat Texas:
"He was like, 'I don't really care, I coached there and a lot of the other guys on the staff coached there.' I was, like, 'bull(expletive), I know you care.'
"After the game, I grabbed him and said, 'This one is for you,' I know how much it meant to him, even though he's probably not going to say that or let that be out there.
"Whatever went on out there left a little sour taste in his mouth, I'm sure. He's never really spoke anything negative about Texas or anything like that. But I know deep down it really meant something to him."
Above from Ben Steele's game article.
tower
I think Shaka is giving Kolek some extra rope to expand his game and get ready for the next level. I think he needs the ball in his hands more and think he will at crunch time in big games. In addition, it has not hurt giving Sean more time at the point. He is going to be needed next season.
Yes to all.
Quote from: DoctorV on December 06, 2023, 11:17:51 PM
My take is that from the moment we laid eyes on him at Marquette you could tell that Tyler was one of the best passers we've ever seen.
Then you could quickly tell that he was one of the best readers of the game we've ever seen.
I'm a harsh critic though, I demanded more. I wanted to see him be able to shoot, and not only shoot but also be able to score in a variety of ways in order to make himself and Marquette elite.
I mean, it wasn't a matter of fans "demanding" stuff from him. It was a matter of him demanding it from himself: How good do I want to be, both for myself and so I can lead Marquette to the next level?
It was discussed ad nauseum here: He had to improve his shooting form and be a threat from 3 ... he had to be a better finisher ... and he had to get better at going right.
There was nothing wrong with criticizing his shooting form his first season at Marquette. It was bad, and he himself knew it. For us to be better, he had to be better, and he knew that too. And so he worked tirelessly to make it better. When he used to go up to shoot, I'd yell, "No!" Now, I want him to shoot every time he's open; when he doesn't, I yell, "Shoot!"
He has improved significantly as a finisher, can get to the rim against most defenders. The combination of his outside shooting, his driving ability and his world-class passing ability has made it a huge challenge for opponents to defend him and Marquette's offense.
Very proud of TK for how hard he worked the past two offseasons. He's fun to watch, and his attitude and talent has propelled MU to excellence.
Two years ago, the difference when Tko shot 3's off the dribble vs off the catch was marked. Without going back and checking, something like 29% vs 51%. Teams went under the screen all the time. He has worked to get stronger and improve his shooting and it has paid off.
Some teams will go under the screen, some teams will stay home when he drives, cutting off passing lanes, some will even remember he is left handed and work to take that away. IMO, the most important thing is for him to lead and attack.
Quote from: DoctorV on December 06, 2023, 11:17:51 PM
My take is that from the moment we laid eyes on him at Marquette you could tell that Tyler was one of the best passers we've ever seen.
Then you could quickly tell that he was one of the best readers of the game we've ever seen.
I'm a harsh critic though, I demanded more. I wanted to see him be able to shoot, and not only shoot but also be able to score in a variety of ways in order to make himself and Marquette elite.
I never expected that turnaround the way we've seen it, but it's here.
You also can't understate the intangibles- his rebounding, his grit, his toughness.
His ability to cry when he fails.
He's got it all. And he may lack athleticism but he makes up for it with his old man's game, his elite moxie.
If those NBA teams pass on him next summer they are missing a chromosome, but I'm fairly certain they won't pass on him if he stays in.
Here's to hoping that our All American cuts em down and heads for the Association, or comes back and wins it all next year.
Imagining Kam and Tyler back as super seniors next season has all preseason #1 pick predictions on lock. I won't wish it, because that would likely mean we failed this year, and Marquette won't.
I just want to know if Muggsy stole DoctorV's login. Or if Muggsy sent DoctorV some of his coffee.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 07, 2023, 09:40:41 AM
I just want to know if Muggsy stole DoctorV's login. Or if Muggsy sent DoctorV some of his coffee.
Doctor V did offer to buy Muggys a ticket to a game this year...
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 06, 2023, 10:49:26 PM
Goose,
A lefty Steve Nash?
There are times when I see Jason Willams
Doctor V is another guy I want going to all of the games. He is my kind of fan.
Lots of fun last night. Fiserv blew up for that run in the late first half. Lots of good energy in the building.
Great presser after Texas by Shaka, then Kolek
Shaka: https://youtu.be/00weRj0BKVc
Kolek: https://youtu.be/bK62c9TP_EE
okay then Oso is Earl Sweatshirt?
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 07, 2023, 12:11:15 PM
okay then Oso is Earl Sweatshirt?
A reference I did not expect to see on this website.
Quote from: Goose on December 07, 2023, 10:23:15 AM
Doctor V is another guy I want going to all of the games. He is my kind of fan.
Not sure I can handle being at all of them, so 5-10 per season will do for now.
I'm just hoping I can handle Saturday nights game in person.
One game at a time, hopefully until the day I die.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 07, 2023, 12:24:13 PM
A reference I did not expect to see on this website.
I'm just here to confound the boomers
Nice little 10 minute interview between Fanta and Kolek for being the Army National Guard of the Week. He seems as confident as ever.
https://twitter.com/CBBonFOX/status/1742993831266492703?t=sWJoQE0d1idjWo4IQMWohg&s=19
He's back. Tyler the creator.
About as good of a game as you can get from someone who scored 4 points.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 27, 2024, 01:56:07 PM
About as good of a game as you can get from someone who scored 4 points.
With more turnovers than points.
Quote from: nyg on January 27, 2024, 02:00:17 PM
With more turnovers than points.
Disregard the 11 assists, right.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on January 27, 2024, 02:15:27 PM
Disregard the 11 assists, right.
A couple of his Tos were stupid as hell
But anyone watching that game that tries to undervalue his assists is nuts. He had 11 should of had 15. Could have had 19
I would say to everyone again, enjoy the brilliance of TK while he is here. Really is fun to watch.
As for his turnovers, one he was hacked and one he tried to thread the needle to Stevie in mop up time. Not all turnovers are equal, but I guess stats are stats.
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on January 27, 2024, 02:18:55 PM
A couple of his assists were stupid as hell
But anyone watching that game that tries to undervalue his assists is nuts. He had 11 should of had 15. Could have had 19
Agreed.
We do need Tyler to score but this was a game that it didn't turn out to be necessary. His unselfishness is impressive. Seton Hall was being physical as sh*t with him and he deserved some more calls but he didn't let that take him out of his game in the 2nd half. Special player.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on January 27, 2024, 02:21:30 PM
Agreed.
We do need Tyler to score but this was a game that it didn't turn out to be necessary. His unselfishness is impressive. Seton Hall was being physical as sh*t with him and he deserved some more calls but he didn't let that take him out of his game in the 2nd half. Special player.
Yeah its becoming a legit thing where teams are allowed to be physical with TK with nothing called. Hes the one guy on our team that does draw legit contact.
Todays game was clearly a let them play game but still, he got hounded.
I do agree with whoever said in the chat that "edge TK is good" "pissed TK is bad". He does need to control his pissed mode a bit. In first half he was a bit of a headcase.
Special player though, as you said.
I'm not a scream-about-the-refs guy, but Kolek gets remarkably few calls for as much contact he absorbs.
And I will admit that I screamed at the refs when, 15 seconds after Kolek was mauled but didn't get a call, MU (Zaide I think?) got whistled for a touch foul 35 feet from the hoop. Ugh.
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on January 27, 2024, 02:30:39 PM
Yeah its becoming a legit thing where teams are allowed to be physical with TK with nothing called. Hes the one guy on our team that does draw legit contact.
Todays game was clearly a let them play game but still, he got hounded.
I do agree with whoever said in the chat that "edge TK is good" "pissed TK is bad". He does need to control his pissed mode a bit. In first half he was a bit of a headcase.
Special player though, as you said.
Yes Tyler draws a lot of contact regularly, and regularly it is not called. It frustrates him sometimes, and you can see he waits for the call sometimes. That means he is pissed, and that is not a good thing,
TK not getting back on D after a no call is one of my two negatives for this year. Jop putting his head down and dribbling to the hoop is my biggest gripe by a very wide margin. Both are fixable, TK probably is an easier fix.
The body fouls and grabbing on Tyler was so out of hand that Tyler was barking at Chiazza on one play while dribbling by the MU bench. No call so Tyler just grabbed the defender's arm and drove past him for a layup. Ef em
Top 10 Finalist for the Cousy Award.
Race is WIDE open. None of those guys are running away with it.
https://twitter.com/MarchMadnessMBB/status/1752055032143372603?t=0MGm81sqBFcs8AUeHB7S4g&s=19
In the first 10 games of the season TyKo had 7 or more assists 2x, UCLA (9) and ND (7)
In the next 11 games of the season Tyler had 7 or more assists 9x.
Double digit assists in 5 of those 9. 9 tonight to go with the 32 points.
20 or more points in 3 of his last 5 games to boot.
Tyler the creator is back.
There were two times last night that TK somewhat forced a short shot and both times they banked off the board in Oso's direction. It almost looked like he was passing it to Oso more than shooting. Anyone else notice that?
Quote from: Goose on January 31, 2024, 04:28:09 AM
There were two times last night that TK somewhat forced a short shot and both times they banked off the board in Oso's direction. It almost looked like he was passing it to Oso more than shooting. Anyone else notice that?
Our guys seem to be in better spots for rebounds as of late.... So I think the TK ups were shots and Oso was well positioned.... But who knows!
18!!!
CONGRATS TO TYLER THE KREATOR!!!
@MarquetteMBB Make Sure TK knows #10 sends his Congrats to breaking that single game assist record. Proud of him and how he runs his squad. I will just continue to keep a Choke Hold on My Baby That MU CAREER All TIME ASSIST LEADER RECORD 😂😂 That's the Competitor in me still 😂
Tony Miller
Quote from: DoctorV on February 21, 2024, 11:23:17 PM
@MarquetteMBB Make Sure TK knows #10 sends his Congrats to breaking that single game assist record. Proud of him and how he runs his squad. I will just continue to keep a Choke Hold on My Baby That MU CAREER All TIME ASSIST LEADER RECORD 😂😂 That's the Competitor in me still 😂
Tony Miller
Again... Happy kolek got the single game record. But as a TMiller fan, not sure he ever played a sub #300 team at home ... Or that there were 300 div 1 teams at the time.
Quote from: DoctorV on February 21, 2024, 11:23:17 PM
@MarquetteMBB Make Sure TK knows #10 sends his Congrats to breaking that single game assist record. Proud of him and how he runs his squad. I will just continue to keep a Choke Hold on My Baby That MU CAREER All TIME ASSIST LEADER RECORD 😂😂 That's the Competitor in me still 😂
Tony Miller
https://twitter.com/KolekTyler/status/1760537047377350869?t=-nH2a05JPGmlKccn3L5LMg&s=19