Obviously rebounding has been an issue so far during Shaka's tenure and was a huge factor today. Based on personnel that's unlikely to change this season.
From what I've gathered it's usually a weakness of Shaka's teams to varying degrees. Maybe we can't expect this to become a consistent strength in the future but do we think it can become less of an issue down the road as the roster changes and continues to add some length and athleticism?
His teams didn't rebound with NBA centers on them.It is not a major concern of his. Other factors matter more.
Having said that. The frontcourt play was embarassing. And i might make a change at the 4 spot. Even if it is too chase ross and the rebounding gets worse. The play from that position was abysmal.
Quote from: jfp61 on December 02, 2023, 03:58:34 PM
His teams didn't rebound with NBA centers on them.It is not a major concern of his. Other factors matter more.
Having said that. The frontcourt play was embarassing. And i might make a change at the 4 spot. Even if it is too chase ross and the rebounding gets worse. The play from that position was abysmal.
I understand it is not a major concern. The question is can different personnel make it less of a weakness going forward.
Quote from: jfp61 on December 02, 2023, 03:58:34 PM
His teams didn't rebound with NBA centers on them.It is not a major concern of his. Other factors matter more.
Having said that. The frontcourt play was embarassing. And i might make a change at the 4 spot. Even if it is too chase ross and the rebounding gets worse. The play from that position was abysmal.
Jop plays smaller than he is anyway, so I don't know if we're really losing that much with Chase there.
The answer is already on the roster. Zaide had 7 rebounds in 14 minutes against Southern University. Shaka just likes Joplin more than he likes Zaide and winning basketball games combined.
It's scheme more than players imo.
The guys are either out of position or trying to leak out. And in games like this, you're not getting out in transition anyway, let alone if you give up 2nd chance points, so you might as well get the fcking ball
It is a recurring issue.
Starting 4 guards will certainly not improve it.
How many times has Shaka changed starting lineups mid year in the two plus he has been at MU?
Shaka is loyal to his upperclassmen.
Get used to this complaint.
Quote from: jfp61 on December 02, 2023, 03:58:34 PM
His teams didn't rebound with NBA centers on them.It is not a major concern of his. Other factors matter more.
Having said that. The frontcourt play was embarassing. And i might make a change at the 4 spot. Even if it is too chase ross and the rebounding gets worse. The play from that position was abysmal.
Chase needs to learn how to stay on the floor. He is prone to picking up fouls.
Same with Ben. Next year's starting center.
Future MU looks to be bigger but if Kolek does not comeback next year, they should bring in a transfer to compete upfront with experience. Should have done that this year, do not want to hear Shaka say we will improve within, not seen great improvement from some yet
Next year's team, as currently projected, will have 6 players >6'7. They will need to learn to play.
Quote from: tower912 on December 02, 2023, 04:12:03 PM
Same with Ben. Next year's starting center.
Ben is to soft to play center much less power forward, can play it on O, but as you saw today he was not quick enough or strong enough t to guard the bigs
Shaka is allergic to rebounders.
Quote from: BCHoopster on December 02, 2023, 04:18:12 PM
Ben is to soft to play center much less power forward, can play it on O, but as you saw today he was not quick enough or strong enough t to guard the bigs
Ben is not soft, he is probably one of two maybe three players with an edge on this team. He isn't quick enough or strong enough, yet, but he isn't soft, in my opinion
Quote from: tower912 on December 02, 2023, 04:12:03 PM
Same with Ben. Next year's starting center.
Oso will be back next year if he continues to play the way he did today. Won't even sniff the league.
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on December 02, 2023, 04:38:48 PM
Oso will be back next year if he continues to play the way he did today. Won't even sniff the league.
There's literally no reason to think he'll continue to play the way he did today.
Other than in a big rivalry game on the road against a good team he played the way he did.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on December 02, 2023, 04:43:04 PM
There's literally no reason to think he'll continue to play the way he did today.
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on December 02, 2023, 04:38:48 PM
Oso will be back next year if he continues to play the way he did today. Won't even sniff the league.
he says December 2.
Oso has announced he won't be back. He will have his MBA by the end of the school year. Ben will start at the 5 next year. Hopefully, he won't have a 6 week gap on his skill development and conditioning.
Quote from: PointWarrior on December 02, 2023, 04:46:49 PM
Other than in a big rivalry game on the road against a good team he played the way he did.
+1
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on December 02, 2023, 04:30:26 PM
Ben is not soft, he is probably one of two maybe three players with an edge on this team. He isn't quick enough or strong enough, yet, but he isn't soft, in my opinion
?? He's as soft as a pillow.
Quote from: 79Warrior on December 02, 2023, 04:50:23 PM
he says December 2.
...yes Dec 2nd. After a mediocre Wisc. Team just handed us our a$$. Oso was awful today, you disagree?
Quote from: tower912 on December 02, 2023, 04:51:00 PM
Oso has announced he won't be back. He will have his MBA by the end of the school year. Ben will start at the 5 next year. Hopefully, he won't have a 6 week gap on his skill development and conditioning.
Fair point. Forgot he had stated this
Serious question-
Why does Shaka not care about rebounding?
He's worse than Henry in that he doesn't even get the easy ones.
Well, unless they all head to Europe, this will be the same team next year as there surely were no NBA'rs playing today.
Quote from: PointWarrior on December 02, 2023, 06:04:10 PM
Well, unless they all head to Europe, this will be the same team next year as there surely were no NBA'rs playing today.
no all Americans either. Kolek has looked great all year but "all American" maybe once
Such victims of the moment. Just like OMax last year. 23 regular season games to go. Oso still got moved into the first round projections after Hawaii. Everybody breathe.
Quote from: tower912 on December 02, 2023, 06:11:52 PM
Such victims of the moment. Just like OMax last year. 23 regular season games to go. Oso still got moved into the first round projections after Hawaii. Everybody breathe.
This fanbase is fucking sad. One tough loss and everyone packs it in. I hope most of you don't show up in April.
Quote from: El Guerrero 2 on December 02, 2023, 06:39:53 PM
This fanbase is unnatural carnal knowledgeing sad. One tough loss and everyone packs it in. I hope most of you don't show up in April.
Have I got news for you
Indeed. First sign of trouble and it is wailing and gnashing of teeth and rending of garments and spamming national writers about lack of respect. MU lost today. Wisconsin played better. Alas.
Quote from: tower912 on December 02, 2023, 06:46:15 PM
Indeed. First sign of trouble and it is wailing and gnashing of teeth and rending of garments and spamming national writers about lack of respect. MU lost today. Wisconsin played better. Alas.
The softest thing about Marquette is the fanbase
Quote from: El Guerrero 2 on December 02, 2023, 06:39:53 PM
This fanbase is unnatural carnal knowledgeing sad. One tough loss and everyone packs it in. I hope most of you don't show up in April.
losses will come...no problem. But to RED? Again? And to play as we did against them? Yeah, fan base is depressed.
I have thought so for years.
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on December 02, 2023, 04:53:28 PM
...yes Dec 2nd. After a mediocre Wisc. Team just handed us our a$$. Oso was awful today, you disagree?
Oso will be fine. And I am not so sure Wisconsin is a "mediocre" team. The line was just about even so Vegas thought otherwise.
Quote from: Mu8891 on December 02, 2023, 05:19:41 PM
Serious question-
Why does Shaka not care about rebounding?
We switch alot defensivly because our players will be pros one day and we act like it.
Defensive rebounding is less important than fans think.
Defensive eFG% is the most important defensive stat by far. Then Offensive eFG%, Offensive TO Rate, and Offensive rebound are the next 3 most important factors.
And then it is defensive rebounding and the other 4 factors.
Obviously days like today are outliers, and unacceptable. But other factors are just more important.
Quote from: jfp61 on December 02, 2023, 07:48:36 PM
We switch alot defensivly because our players will be pros one day and we act like it.
Defensive rebounding is less important than fans think.
Defensive eFG% is the most important defensive stat by far. Then Offensive eFG%, Offensive TO Rate, and Offensive rebound are the next 3 most important factors.
And then it is defensive rebounding and the other 4 factors.
Obviously days like today are outliers, and unacceptable. But other factors are just more important.
I'm not sure you can quantify the emotional toll of constantly getting beat on the defensive glass.
I'm far too lazy to look up the numbers on Shaka Marquette teams but I wonder if someone could dig in on our defensive efficiency numbers from initial possession vs. second possession off of an offensive board on the same trip. I would imagine second possession numbers massively favor the offensive team for multiple reasons.
Quote from: Viper on December 02, 2023, 07:00:56 PM
losses will come...no problem. But to RED? Again? And to play as we did against them? Yeah, fan base is depressed.
I get being depressed but the level of asinine commentary on here is next level. We lost a road game to a P6 school. crap happens. We've got 3 months left to improve. And we're 10 days off running the No. 1 team in the country out of the building. People need to get a grip.
Quote from: panda on December 02, 2023, 08:05:58 PM
I'm not sure you can quantify the emotional toll of constantly getting beat on the defensive glass.
I'm far too lazy to look up the numbers on Shaka Marquette teams but I wonder if someone could dig in on our defensive efficiency numbers from initial possession vs. second possession off of an offensive board on the same trip. I would imagine second possession numbers massively favor the offensive team for multiple reasons.
This is just common sense. My point is forcing missed shots is more important than defensive rebounding. And multiple offensive factors are more important than defensive rebounding.
Thats it.
Quote from: tower912 on December 02, 2023, 06:46:15 PM
Indeed. First sign of trouble and it is wailing and gnashing of teeth and rending of garments and spamming national writers about lack of respect. MU lost today. Wisconsin played better. Alas.
Come on. Any fan base that just endured an 11 point loss (and NEVER led) in a rivalry game Is going to be pissed. Add in the uncharacteristic performance from Oso and Tyler, Jop missing more field goals then points scored, the rebound discrepancy people are for sure going to put on some tin foil hats.
Quote from: El Guerrero 2 on December 02, 2023, 08:09:04 PM
I get being depressed but the level of asinine commentary on here is next level. We lost a road game to a P6 school. crap happens. We've got 3 months left to improve. And we're 10 days off running the No. 1 team in the country out of the building. People need to get a grip.
Testify. A tale as old as time.
Quote from: El Guerrero 2 on December 02, 2023, 08:09:04 PM
I get being depressed but the level of asinine commentary on here is next level. We lost a road game to a P6 school. crap happens. We've got 3 months left to improve. And we're 10 days off running the No. 1 team in the country out of the building. People need to get a grip.
are any of you lawyers that might lend me a hand? Here's the deal. My bro-in-law uw grad will harpoon me tomorrow. He would today but I blocked his texts. So, if I were to drug him and haul him way out in the woods...I mean way out there, and tie him to a pine tree, do I get in trouble? 🤣
Quote from: jfp61 on December 02, 2023, 08:10:55 PM
This is just common sense. My point is forcing missed shots is more important than defensive rebounding. And multiple offensive factors are more important than defensive rebounding.
Thats it.
And ignoring rebounding is quite an obvious flaw that will lead to more challenging possessions. I'm not going to look it up, but not everything can be quantified into a pillar of guaranteed success.
Quote from: panda on December 02, 2023, 08:39:06 PM
And ignoring rebounding is quite an obvious flaw that will lead to more challenging possessions. I'm not going to look it up, but not everything can be quantified into a pillar of guaranteed success.
I'm not of the school we dismiss rebounding concerns. There's a difference between not prioritizing and simply getting waxed to the point of being non-competitive.
Wisky did this to Virginia as well and should have been a scouting point. I don't care how good your defense is. If the other team gets 18 points off second chances, you're behind the eight ball.
When you want to generate offense with defense, you can't get beat that bad on the glass unless the offense is firing on all cylinders.
Bad combination game but also a poorly coached game, imo. It happens and all coaches have them. It's a problem if it keeps happening
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 02, 2023, 08:55:02 PM
I'm not of the school we dismiss rebounding concerns. There's a difference between not prioritizing and simply getting waxed to the point of being non-competitive.
Wisky did this to Virginia as well and should have been a scouting point. I don't care how good your defense is. If the other team gets 18 points off second chances, you're behind the eight ball.
When you want to generate offense with defense, you can't get beat that bad on the glass unless the offense is firing on all cylinders.
Bad combination game but also a poorly coached game, imo. It happens and all coaches have them. It's a problem if it keeps happening
Agree - the rebounding issues today were magnified because of poor play in all facets.
Quote from: panda on December 02, 2023, 08:39:06 PM
And ignoring rebounding is quite an obvious flaw that will lead to more challenging possessions. I'm not going to look it up, but not everything can be quantified into a pillar of guaranteed success.
It is a flaw. It is the 5th most important of the four factors (which is 8 factors because offense vs defense). I was just answering "Why does Shaka not care about rebounding?".
And you responded second possestions are bad because they lead to made shots. But that isn't really related to what i was saying. You just pointed out how events relate in basketball.
e.g. Offensive made shots lead to set defenses.
Offensive TO's lead to made buckets for opposition.
Offensive rebounds lead to additional points.
Its all related. But that doesn't change how these factors correlate to Winning percentage.
Typically (in correlation it Win percentage) its
1. Defensive eFG%
2. Offensive eFG%
3. Offensive TO%
4. Offensive Rbd%
5. Defenisve Rbd%
6. Defenisve TO%
7. Offensive FTR%
8. Defenisve FTR%
Quote from: Viper on December 02, 2023, 08:27:45 PM
are any of you lawyers that might lend me a hand? Here's the deal. My bro-in-law uw grad will harpoon me tomorrow. He would today but I blocked his texts. So, if I were to drug him and haul him way out in the woods...I mean way out there, and tie him to a pine tree, do I get in trouble? 🤣
No jury would convict you.
What's weird is the rebounding was relatively good against Illinois, UCLA, and Kansas.
Opp. Off. Reb% per T Rank
Illinois 30%
UCLA 20%
Kansas 29.4%
All of those numbers are manageable. But rebounding has been a major issue in both losses.
Opp. Off. Reb% per T Rank
Purdue 41.9%
Wisconsin 48.4%
Those are terrible numbers. Marquette needs to get back to the rebounding displayed against Illinois, UCLA, and Kansas.
Quote from: withoutbias on December 02, 2023, 04:01:49 PM
The answer is already on the roster. Zaide had 7 rebounds in 14 minutes against Southern University. Shaka just likes Joplin more than he likes Zaide and winning basketball games combined.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 02, 2023, 04:52:41 PM
?? He's as soft as a pillow.
Fun fact Sultan: Gold isn't any softer than Oso or Joplin. Jop has been allergic to rebounding all season, and Oso's rebounding has been mediocre at best. Gold and Zaide are the only 2 guys on the roster with D Rebounding rates over 20 and and their O-Rebounding rates are 8.8 and 9.4 respectively. Zaide very likely would be this team's leading rebounder if his minutes increase.
Shaka's loyalty and belief in Jop is getting to the point where Shaka is going to need to see his loyalty and belief in Jop actualized. I suspect Jop has a little more rope to step up his rebounding and shooting, but if he doesn't turn the corner soon, he'll lose his starting role.
Gold is a fine rebounder. He's got to stay on the court though cause he is a fouling machine out there. He also let guys get past him multiple times because he was out of position defensively. I love the guy's potential offensively but its really hard to keep him out there.
Zaide's rebounding stats are almost entirely built on the Southern game.
I agree that Jop's a problem right now. Unfortunately I don't see many good answers short of hoping he gets better.
Shaka has no option but to keep playing Jop at the 4 despite the problems. Gold has to come off the bench to spell both Jop and Oso, and his defensive problems are an issue anyway. Ross is too small to play at the 4 very much and has had his own issues. Zaide is a 3, not a 4. So, what you see is what you get. Every now and then, MU is going to run into a big team that causes them a problem. Shaka simply seems to prefer athleticism to size, which is fine except when it does not work.
Quote from: rgoode57 on December 03, 2023, 10:39:46 AM
Shaka has no option but to keep playing Jop at the 4 despite the problems. Gold has to come off the bench to spell both Jop and Oso, and his defensive problems are an issue anyway. Ross is too small to play at the 4 very much and has had his own issues. Zaide is a 3, not a 4. So, what you see is what you get. Every now and then, MU is going to run into a big team that causes them a problem. Shaka simply seems to prefer athleticism to size, which is fine except when it does not work.
I have good news about size and athleticism for the incoming 2024 class.
Quote from: JakeBarnes on December 03, 2023, 10:41:49 AM
I have good news about size and athleticism for the incoming 2024 class.
That helps, but it's schematic. Guys flying all over, switching, trapping... It's incredibly hard to win rebounding position when you're chasing.
Putbacks stand out because they're immediate second chance points. But frankly the amount of long rebounds we give up is the bigger issue. Guards gotta start chipping in there.
When one of our guys is in position to shoot a three nobody anticipates to move to the basket in the shot. I would hope one player would go to contest the rebound if missed
Many of us were pleading for Shaka to get a banger in the portal before this season's start. Given the unique (30+ yrs) opportunity this team has to do some big things, the blatant rebounding deficiencies and our lack of front court depth, it's too bad he didn't listen.
Quote from: Superfan on December 03, 2023, 03:19:12 PM
Many of us were pleading for Shaka to get a banger in the portal before this season's start. Given the unique (30+ yrs) opportunity this team has to do some big things, the blatant rebounding deficiencies and our lack of front court depth, it's too bad he didn't listen.
🙄🙄🙄
Quote from: Superfan on December 03, 2023, 03:19:12 PM
Many of us were pleading for Shaka to get a banger in the portal before this season's start. Given the unique (30+ yrs) opportunity this team has to do some big things, the blatant rebounding deficiencies and our lack of front court depth, it's too bad he didn't listen.
I will worry when Shaka STARTS listening to message board experts.
tower
There are definitely a lot of opinions out there after the loss. If I did not make a couple of nice wagers on MU I would be 100% over the loss hours ago. They have played five very tough opponents before St. Nick gets in town and a lot more big games to come.
Lots of games to be played. Biggest thing now is to not let it become a streak.
Quote from: tower912 on December 03, 2023, 03:44:15 PM
Lots of games to be played. Biggest thing now is to not let it become a streak.
Big streak in our undapants rn aina
Zaide isn't playing more because he's not there defensively. He's okay against low majors and has held his own against that level, but I just don't think the comfort level is there against high major talent yet. He'll get there, but no need to rush him into something he's not ready for.
Quote from: Viper on December 02, 2023, 08:27:45 PM
are any of you lawyers that might lend me a hand? Here's the deal. My bro-in-law uw grad will harpoon me tomorrow. He would today but I blocked his texts. So, if I were to drug him and haul him way out in the woods...I mean way out there, and tie him to a pine tree, do I get in trouble? 🤣
Way, way out into the woods, no; but if you dumped him the middle of Lake Michigan you'll be in more trouble with your sister than the law.
Quote from: rgoode57 on December 03, 2023, 10:39:46 AM
Shaka has no option but to keep playing Jop at the 4 despite the problems. Gold has to come off the bench to spell both Jop and Oso, and his defensive problems are an issue anyway. Ross is too small to play at the 4 very much and has had his own issues. Zaide is a 3, not a 4. So, what you see is what you get. Every now and then, MU is going to run into a big team that causes them a problem. Shaka simply seems to prefer athleticism to size, which is fine except when it does not work.
Good one-paragraph analysis.
Shaka would have loved to have played Gold more. He hit a couple 3s and he's just a good offensive player. But he fouls too much, and every Wisconsin player he defended just went right past him. So Gold forced Shaka's hand - Shaka simply didn't think he could afford to have Gold on the floor.
Ross has been a mild disappointment so far IMHO.
I also agree with those about knee-jerk reactions to one loss. I'm always pissed when we lose to Madison, but I've got to see a lot more go bad before I actually "worry" about this team. And I think we'll see a TON more things that go good than go bad this season.
Quote from: Superfan on December 03, 2023, 03:19:12 PM
Many of us were pleading for Shaka to get a banger in the portal before this season's start. Given the unique (30+ yrs) opportunity this team has to do some big things, the blatant rebounding deficiencies and our lack of front court depth, it's too bad he didn't listen.
the draw in March will be critical. Get a Badger-type team in rd 1 or 2 and it's probably lights out.
Watching the UConn UNC game last night - all of Uconn's players crash the boards pretty much every time. Uconn's leading rebounder is their 6ft 5in point guard Tristen Newton. Rebounding is mostly effort and it is something we can fix.
Quote from: MUbiz on December 06, 2023, 12:05:33 PM
Rebounding is mostly effort and it is something we can Shaka won't fix.
FIFY