I'm super happy the Freshmen got to play tonight. And they played with tremendous tenacity and energy. What I see are athletes that are unselfish and eager to learn. Let me tell you something...I think we are creeping closer to being what I call a "reload" program, not a "rebuild" program. We're embarking on a special, special, era of MU hoops. Of course there will be some bumps along the way but we've definitely arrived.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 28, 2023, 09:58:08 PM
I'm super happy the Freshmen got to play tonight. And they played with tremendous tenacity and energy. What I see are athletes that are unselfish and eager to learn. Let me tell you something...I think we are creeping closer to being what I call a "reload" program, not a "rebuild" program. We're embarking on a special, special, era of MU hoops.
I agree with this analysis.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 28, 2023, 09:58:08 PM
I'm super happy the Freshmen got to play tonight. And they played with tremendous tenacity and energy. What I see are athletes that are unselfish and eager to learn. Let me tell you something...I think we are creeping closer to being what I call a "reload" program, not a "rebuild" program. We're embarking on a special, special, era of MU hoops. Of course there will be some bumps along the way but we've definitely arrived.
Creeping closer? We need the old "It's happening!" resurrected.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 28, 2023, 10:05:21 PM
Creeping closer? We need the old "It's happening!" resurrected.
I don't want to get ahead of things Lenny. And tournament success is important as well.
Muggsy
The future is as bright as the present. Next season may be more D driven based off of f makeup of the roster. I loved watching thd young guys in full court and half court D. That group is definitely at a different level of athleticism than the starters. Add three guys 6-7 and taller next year that are great athletes, get ready for some excitement.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 28, 2023, 10:07:06 PM
I don't want to get ahead of things Lenny. And tournament success is important as well.
Tournament success always comes to those who reload - it becomes a numbers game.
Quote from: Goose on November 28, 2023, 10:10:24 PM
Muggsy
The future is as bright as the present. Next season may be more D driven based off of f makeup of the roster. I loved watching thd young guys in full court and half court D. That group is definitely at a different level of athleticism than the starters. Add three guys 6-7 and taller next year that are great athletes, get ready for some excitement.
Yes Goose. Adding a few 6'7 switchables would not suck.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 28, 2023, 10:13:04 PM
Tournament success always comes to those who reload - it becomes a numbers game.
No doubt Lenny. I'm. beyond pumped about the present and future of this program.
The freshmen don't look like freshman.
Quote from: Goose on November 28, 2023, 10:10:24 PM
Muggsy
The future is as bright as the present. Next season may be more D driven based off of f makeup of the roster. I loved watching thd young guys in full court and half court D. That group is definitely at a different level of athleticism than the starters. Add three guys 6-7 and taller next year that are great athletes, get ready for some excitement.
Maybe, but there's no one close to TyKo and Kam offensively on this years roster of underclassmen, I don't think.
I agree with you on next years shift towards a stronger defensive side, partly because of the athleticism but also because of the lack of offensive firepower and ability to score.
A few seasons ago I learned that scorers emerge and we will find something, but MU will go from a top 5 O team to outside the top 75 if TyKo and Kam leave. If one returns, we will stay in the top 50.
That said, need some scorers. Our shooters aren't as good as we think they are I'm afraid- Kam, TyKo, Jop probably the 3 best and if they leave it'll be a struggle on that end.
We would likely be starting a non effective shooting pg (SJ22) and SG (Stevie or Tre). I'm not sold on Chase or Ben as shooters yet- stroke looks fine but it's just not dropping yet.
We will have the ball handling and defensive parts ok, even tho the defense will suffer with Oso gone. We will have much needed and excessive depth at the 4/5 compared to this season.
Shaka needs to bring in a microwave scorer at any position- I'd prefer a wing so as to not stunt the development of current bigs and guards and not affect recruitment of top 50ish type combo guards that he's in on.
6'6 scoring G/F to play alongside Jop and Chase in that 3/4 spot would be ideal imo.
If TyKo or Kam return we are back to being elite. If BOTH return we are title contenders again
Quote from: DoctorV on November 28, 2023, 10:26:43 PM
Maybe, but there's no one close to TyKo and Kam offensively on this years roster of underclassmen, I don't think.
I agree with you on next years shift towards a stronger defensive side, partly because of the athleticism but also because of the lack of offensive firepower and ability to score.
A few seasons ago I learned that scorers emerge and we will find something, but MU will go from a top 5 O team to outside the top 75 if TyKo and Kam leave. If one returns, we will stay in the top 50.
That said, need some scorers. Our shooters aren't as good as we think they are I'm afraid- Kam, TyKo, Jop probably the 3 best and if they leave it'll be a struggle on that end.
We would likely be starting a non effective shooting pg (SJ22) and SG (Stevie or Tre). I'm not sold on Chase or Ben as shooters yet- stroke looks fine but it's just not dropping yet.
We will have the ball handling and defensive parts ok, even tho the defense will suffer with Oso gone. We will have much needed and excessive depth at the 4/5 compared to this season.
Shaka needs to bring in a microwave scorer at any position- I'd prefer a wing so as to not stunt the development of current bigs and guards and not affect recruitment of top 50ish type combo guards that he's in on.
6'6 scoring G/F to play alongside Jop and Chase in that 3/4 spot would be ideal imo.
If TyKo or Kam return we are back to being elite. If BOTH return we are title contenders again
Who do you think is our best NBA prospect Dr. V? I wouldn't mind picking up a spot shooter moving forward.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 28, 2023, 10:13:04 PM
Tournament success always comes to those who reload - it becomes a numbers game.
Bingo. Look at Nova. They had a 5 year stretch being either a 1 or 2 seed. 3 times they went out in the 2nd round, 2 times they won it all.
A consistent level of sustained excellence will eventually equal tournament success. Shaka has Marquette primed to have many bites at the apple.
Quote from: Goose on November 28, 2023, 10:10:24 PM
Muggsy
The future is as bright as the present. Next season may be more D driven based off of f makeup of the roster. I loved watching thd young guys in full court and half court D. That group is definitely at a different level of athleticism than the starters. Add three guys 6-7 and taller next year that are great athletes, get ready for some excitement.
Not to mention one of those bigs is playing a PG role for his team right now. Great athletes coming in!
Quote from: JakeBarnes on November 28, 2023, 10:33:32 PM
Not to mention one of those bigs is playing a PG role for his team right now. Great athletes coming in!
That's rather promising.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 28, 2023, 10:28:55 PM
Who do you think is our best NBA prospect Dr. V? I wouldn't mind picking up a spot shooter moving forward.
Oso, but I think TyKo and Kam have better NBA careers.
Oso is very elite smart, and I think he moves to greener pastures quickly making a lot of money, possibly still in basketball circles as a front office type of guy.
Don't really want a spot of shooter Muggs, I want a microwave high volume scorer type.
A guy you need to reign from 20 shots per game to 10 but will still give you 16 on a given night.
Think someone like Hopkins, Scheierman, Shannon Jr.
Again this assumes TyKo and Kam are gone.
Who cares about next season though when Marquette can win a Natty this one? Amirite?
Quote from: DoctorV on November 28, 2023, 10:47:46 PM
Oso, but I think TyKo and Kam have better NBA careers.
Oso is very elite smart, and I think he moves to greener pastures quickly making a lot of money, possibly still in basketball circles as a front office type of guy.
Don't really want a spot of shooter Muggs, I want a microwave high volume scorer type.
A guy you need to reign from 20 shots per game to 10 but will still give you 16 on a given night.
Think someone like Hopkins, Scheierman, Shannon Jr.
Again this assumes TyKo and Kam are gone.
Who cares about next season though when Marquette can win a Natty this one? Amirite?
You're correct on all of your points. I just like sustained dominance.
Quote from: DoctorV on November 28, 2023, 10:26:43 PM
Maybe, but there's no one close to TyKo and Kam offensively on this years roster of underclassmen, I don't think.
I agree with you on next years shift towards a stronger defensive side, partly because of the athleticism but also because of the lack of offensive firepower and ability to score.
A few seasons ago I learned that scorers emerge and we will find something, but MU will go from a top 5 O team to outside the top 75 if TyKo and Kam leave. If one returns, we will stay in the top 50.
That said, need some scorers. Our shooters aren't as good as we think they are I'm afraid- Kam, TyKo, Jop probably the 3 best and if they leave it'll be a struggle on that end.
We would likely be starting a non effective shooting pg (SJ22) and SG (Stevie or Tre). I'm not sold on Chase or Ben as shooters yet- stroke looks fine but it's just not dropping yet.
We will have the ball handling and defensive parts ok, even tho the defense will suffer with Oso gone. We will have much needed and excessive depth at the 4/5 compared to this season.
Shaka needs to bring in a microwave scorer at any position- I'd prefer a wing so as to not stunt the development of current bigs and guards and not affect recruitment of top 50ish type combo guards that he's in on.
6'6 scoring G/F to play alongside Jop and Chase in that 3/4 spot would be ideal imo.
If TyKo or Kam return we are back to being elite. If BOTH return we are title contenders again
For his first season and a half for Marquette, Kolek was neither a shooter nor a scorer. Thread after thread talked about how bad his shot looked. Now look at him. Kam was a one-trick pony as a freshman and Shaka had to bench him several times because of poor D. Now look at him. Oso was a non-player as a freshman and a non-scorer as a sophomore. Now look at him.
Motivated players coached by outstanding coaches improve.
But sure, I'd rather Kolek and Kam return. Oso too. Can't always get what you want. I'll worry about what we can't do next season when next season gets here. I mean, Gold and Ross might be All-Big East-level players next season. Who knows?
Quote from: MU82 on November 28, 2023, 10:52:29 PM
For his first season and a half for Marquette, Kolek was neither a shooter nor a scorer. Thread after thread talked about how bad his shot looked. Now look at him. Kam was a one-trick pony as a freshman and Shaka had to bench him several times because of poor D. Now look at him. Oso was a non-player as a freshman and a non-scorer as a sophomore. Now look at him.
Motivated players coached by outstanding coaches improve.
But sure, I'd rather Kolek and Kam return. Oso too. Can't always get what you want. I'll worry about what we can't do next season when next season gets here. I mean, Gold and Ross might be All-Big East-level players next season. Who knows?
Great points. Shaka is getting the players he likes who fit his system and develops them well. He will only get more selective if we have success this year. The future is bright.
Doctor V, Tyler wasn't always Tyler. I remember discussions that Sean should be handed the reins and TKo should move to SG or come off the bench. MU was picked to finish 9th last season. You are looking at the unknowns and assuming there will be no growth, no development. This is your right, of course.
I look at a roster with Stevie, Sean, Chase, Tre, and Zaide at guard, project growth and development, and think 'hell, yeah.' I think of a roster with Gold, Joplin, Amadou, Hamilton, Parham, and Owens, project growth and development, and look forward with anticipation.
Different, sure. Not every prospect pans out, sure. But I see the potential. Watching the becoming is the fun part.
Oh sure, there will be plenty of growth and development because those kids are in great hands.
There won't be a drop off the cliff type of regression as long as Shaka is here.
When Kam and Jop first came to campus there was an obvious elite skill already in place, the ability to score the ball.
When Tyler first came to campus there was an obvious elite skill already in place, the ability to pass the ball and read the game better than we had seen in a long time.
They all got better and are continuing to get better, as the others will too.
TyKo for example is becoming a better and better multi-faceted scorer every single game.
All I'm saying that in the younger crop I haven't quite seen the natural ability to score just yet.
They will get better, but I'm not sure that elite skill is there.
Also, don't take it from me- Shaka was glowing about all 3 of the above quickly into their Marquette careers
Said Kam was a natural scorer, said Jop could lead the BE in scoring, and compared Tyler to Travis and said he's a way better shooter than he had shown early, etc.
The athleticism is thru the roof. The toughness and defensive ability seems thru the roof. I just don't quite see the next elite scorer just yet.
Of course it's likely that we've been extremely spoiled and it'll be hard to fill the existing shoes.
It'll be fun watching them grow for sure.
Part of this resurgence is the work put in the off-season. Each year, someone's shot improves drastically. This year Tyler's shot form is quicker, smoother and it looks pure a nearly every attempt. When he said at Big East Media day he's working on range, it's clearly with this new form. First four yesterday looked good from the release. That last 3 was a bit further out and you can tell that form isn't quite there yet.
However, kudos to whoever is working endlessly on improving the shooting form for players each off-season.
I think every guy on our roster has come back better this year. I get that we haven't seen it from certain guys every single game but the roster development has been very noticeable and encouraging. We're really deep so it's difficult sometimes when you have truncated mins.
All that said I look at our 3 Frosh, combined with our 3 Sophs and the 3 guys coming in? This is a resurgence folks. It's really that simple. Obviously Kolek is a special, special, player. Guys like TyKo just don't come through the turnstile. However, like certain irreplaceable guys under Wright Nova was able to rearm and be a top 10 program and F4 threat every season. When you move from the "rebuild" to the "reload" mode that's when you know you have arrived and are a consistent threat to net cut. It's a beautiful thing and the MU community has been waiting patiently for 45+ years.
I'm glad we got a look at the freshman too because that was my biggest concern after this year. You have to have the mindset the Kolek, Kam and Oso are all gone after this year. We do not want this to be a flash in the pan like the Badgers in 14-15 where they make the Championship and then suck for the next 10 years. I believe in Shaka's recruiting but having a older team you just never know if the freshman don't get playing time.
I'm probably way off here but I think it's more likely than not that Kam returns.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 29, 2023, 10:01:16 AM
I'm probably way off here but I think it's more likely than not that Kam returns.
You are not way off. Agreed.
Quote from: Goose on November 28, 2023, 10:10:24 PM
Muggsy
The future is as bright as the present. Next season may be more D driven based off of f makeup of the roster. I loved watching thd young guys in full court and half court D. That group is definitely at a different level of athleticism than the starters. Add three guys 6-7 and taller next year that are great athletes, get ready for some excitement.
. Who will replace Oso?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 29, 2023, 10:01:16 AM
I'm probably way off here but I think it's more likely than not that Kam returns.
Youre not. As is, Kams game wouldnt translate well to the Association. Though it only takes one team believing that they can turn Kam into a PG to get him drafted.
Marquette's style of play is also another feather in Shaka's cap. Do not be surprised if we add a few burger boys and impact transfers in the years to come.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 29, 2023, 10:22:44 AM
Youre not. As is, Kams game wouldnt translate well to the Association. Though it only takes one team believing that they can turn Kam into a PG to get him drafted.
The more a watch Kolek the more I think he will be a solid NBA player. He's not as strong or nearly the scorer Brunson has become but he continues to get better. My only question mark is his quickness defensively.
As for Oso I'm not as sure. He has an incredible overall skill-set, and the open floor of the NBA should be advantageous to him. But because he really hasn't shown the ability to make a face-up J it could hamper him a bit.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 29, 2023, 10:29:07 AM
Marquette's style of play is also another feather in Shaka's cap. Do not be surprised if we add a few burger boys and impact transfers in the years to come.
Based on the culture that Shaka preaches, impact transfers in will be few and far between. As to burger boys, never say never, but Shaka clearly prefers good players who fit his culture. I don't expect one and dones.
Quote from: tower912 on November 29, 2023, 10:40:01 AM
Based on the culture that Shaka preaches, impact transfers in will be few and far between. As to burger boys, never say never, but Shaka clearly prefers good players who fit his culture. I don't expect one and dones.
Spot on. What some scoopers hope for or believe and what Shaka has made very clear is his M.O. are often polar opposites.
Scoopers used to lament and wail and gnash teeth (shocking) about how Wisconsin under Bo would have these players for 5 years, how they completely bought into his system and never left. How infuriating that was. Nobody transferred in. Nobody of note ever transferred out. When an 11th guy on the roster left, scoop mocked them mercilessly.
Shaka is doing his version of the same thing. Recruiting good-not-great players that fit his system. Getting buy in on his culture. Developing the crap out of them. Year to year improvement. Same tune, different lyrics.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 29, 2023, 10:22:44 AM
Youre not. As is, Kams game wouldnt translate well to the Association. Though it only takes one team believing that they can turn Kam into a PG to get him drafted.
I used to think this, TAMU, but just really watching him play this season I disagree now.
He's tall enough, he's not scrawny, he can get to the hoop, he is a great finisher, he has imagination around the bucket, and he has NBA 3-point range. He's become a decent defender, too. And he's a good enough decision-maker and ballhandler to be a combo guard.
I actually think he's got a pretty darn good chance at an NBA career. Because of his shooting alone, he's ahead of guys like Blue, McNeal, Buycks, Wilson and a few others who didn't quite make it.
All IMHO of course.
I don't think Shaka's intent is to bring people for five years.
I do think it's about developing talent but my guess is he convinces kids to come in and work so they can achieve their dream in 2-3 yrs.
I have no idea how many NBA players may have on this team, but it looks like a lot to me if they land in the right place. Yiu probably can make legit case for Kam, TK, Oso, Chase, Gold and other guys to early to tell. One thing I do know, there is no shortage of good, very good and great college players currently playing at MU.
Quote from: Goose on November 29, 2023, 11:10:36 AM
I have no idea how many NBA players may have on this team, but it looks like a lot to me if they land in the right place. Yiu probably can make legit case for Kam, TK, Oso, Chase, Gold and other guys to early to tell. One thing I do know, there is no shortage of good, very good and great college players currently playing at MU.
NBA or not is tough to call (ie Juan T-A). However, we have more people in the program today that will play professionally than maybe any time in the last 20 years. With the possible exception being a couple of of Buzz's years.
Quote from: tower912 on November 29, 2023, 10:57:07 AM
Scoopers used to lament and wail and gnash teeth (shocking) about how Wisconsin under Bo would have these players for 5 years, how they completely bought into his system and never left. How infuriating that was. Nobody transferred in. Nobody of note ever transferred out. When an 11th guy on the roster left, scoop mocked them mercilessly.
Shaka is doing his version of the same thing. Recruiting good-not-great players that fit his system. Getting buy in on his culture. Developing the crap out of them. Year to year improvement. Same tune, different lyrics.
I think Shaka is a bit more flexible than Bo. He will use transfers when it works for the team. He hasn't had a lot of transfers the last couple years, because we haven't needed them. He is committed to this group of guys, as he should be.
But I wouldn't necessarily extrapolate going forward. I think Shaka will use transfers strategically and we may end up having some 1 and done guys too.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, Shaka is super adaptable and will do whatever works best for a particular situation and a particular group of guys. Look at how his defensive scheme changed from VCU to Texas. Dude is a genius coach and will make adjustments for whatever is needed.
Quote from: DoctorV on November 28, 2023, 10:26:43 PM
I'm not sold on Chase or Ben as shooters yet- stroke looks fine but it's just not dropping yet.
Ben needs to reconstitute his shot if he is going to be more than a ~30% shooter from deep. He has a high, quick release and good form, but needs some arc.
TK and Kam can show him how. And Kam successfully fixed his FT form as well.
I take Shaka at his word. Listening to him lament how much money some of these transfers want. Listening to him talk about not wanting to disrupt culture by taking a transfer over someone who has put in the work in the program for a couple of years. It may happen, but it will be rare and specific. For example, if Joplin had decided to transfer at the same time OMax stayed in the draft.
Looking at how the recruiting classes are shaking out, over the next few years there will be depth throughout the roster.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 29, 2023, 10:29:07 AM
Marquette's style of play is also another feather in Shaka's cap. Do not be surprised if we add a few burger boys and impact transfers in the years to come.
Not sure I agree with this. When it comes to the 5-stars, I'm sure we will take them if they fit the culture and are willing to come in and work their way up. We've been involved with guys like Kon Knueppel and Joson Sanon, so clearly they won't shy away from big fish, but I don't think they will prioritize perceived top-end talent over fit and I'm confident they will take lower rated guys they believe will buy in and develop here over higher rated guys that come in expecting to be featured.
As far as transfers, I think our first wave of transfers was mostly be necessity. We needed experienced starters to set the tone so we brought in Morsell and Kuath. We needed program building talent so we added Kolek and Prosper. Going forward, I expect us to primarily fill roles from within. If Kolek, Kam, and Oso all move on this year, it will be Sean, Chase (or Zaide), and Ben that take their spots. I expect this to be a program that uses the transfer portal less than probably just about any other program.
Once the lid comes off the hoop for Gold it is going to be off to the races. He was recruited because of three-point shooting and his form is spot on for a big guy. He has a shooter mentality and one of these games it is going to click, and IMO, click in a big way. The kid has an edge to him and that edge is going to serve him very well over the next 10+ years.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 29, 2023, 11:29:58 AM
Not sure I agree with this. When it comes to the 5-stars, I'm sure we will take them if they fit the culture and are willing to come in and work their way up. We've been involved with guys like Kon Knueppel and Joson Sanon, so clearly they won't shy away from big fish, but I don't think they will prioritize perceived top-end talent over fit and I'm confident they will take lower rated guys they believe will buy in and develop here over higher rated guys that come in expecting to be featured.
As far as transfers, I think our first wave of transfers was mostly be necessity. We needed experienced starters to set the tone so we brought in Morsell and Kuath. We needed program building talent so we added Kolek and Prosper. Going forward, I expect us to primarily fill roles from within. If Kolek, Kam, and Oso all move on this year, it will be Sean, Chase (or Zaide), and Ben that take their spots. I expect this to be a program that uses the transfer portal less than probably just about any other program.
That's clearly what Shaka wants to do. He's said so repeatedly. But what if we have a less-than-satisfactory recruiting class or two and it leaves a hole in the roster? We all hope it won't happen, but it can happen and it has happened lots of programs. In that case, IMHO, he'll do what he needs to do.
Quote from: MU82 on November 29, 2023, 11:34:32 AM
That's clearly what Shaka wants to do. He's said so repeatedly. But what if we have a less-than-satisfactory recruiting class or two and it leaves a hole in the roster? We all hope it won't happen, but it can happen and it has happened lots of programs. In that case, IMHO, he'll do what he needs to do.
It can and has, but the reality is everyone has down years. At that point, the question is do you throw out the model or do you have faith in your roster and use the down year as a building block for the next year? I'm honestly not sure, but it would not surprise me at all if we avoid the portal even in years where the roster isn't a surefire top-25 team just to reinforce for current and future players that being part of this system means you work your way up and the staff won't throw you over when there are bumps in the road.
I keep thinking back to that "first two years, nothing but culture" comment from when Shaka was first hired. I think it's entirely possible that long-term culture will remain more important that short-term success, even if that means having a bumpy season here or there.
Quote from: Goose on November 29, 2023, 11:33:30 AM
Once the lid comes off the hoop for Gold it is going to be off to the races. He was recruited because of three-point shooting and his form is spot on for a big guy. He has a shooter mentality and one of these games it is going to click, and IMO, click in a big way. The kid has an edge to him and that edge is going to serve him very well over the next 10+ years.
He made an adjustment on the fly last night. His 4th and 5th attempts were definitely better than his previous three, with a better release and more arc. But overall, I agree that he has nice form. He also has a good feel for when he's really open and when it's a good time to take one. And he has a better all-around game than some think; that alley-oop to Amadou was pretty.
Like you, I keep waiting for the floodgates to open. I thought maybe it happened when he drained those two big ones against Kansas, but maybe it'll be Saturday!
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 29, 2023, 11:37:56 AM
It can and has, but the reality is everyone has down years. At that point, the question is do you throw out the model or do you have faith in your roster and use the down year as a building block for the next year? I'm honestly not sure, but it would not surprise me at all if we avoid the portal even in years where the roster isn't a surefire top-25 team just to reinforce for current and future players that being part of this system means you work your way up and the staff won't throw you over when there are bumps in the road.
I keep thinking back to that "first two years, nothing but culture" comment from when Shaka was first hired. I think it's entirely possible that long-term culture will remain more important that short-term success, even if that means having a bumpy season here or there.
I don't think it would be "throwing away the model" to do something similar to Morsell/Kur. I think Shaka would agree with that statement, but I don't profess to know for sure.
Quote from: tower912 on November 29, 2023, 10:57:07 AM
Scoopers used to lament and wail and gnash teeth (shocking) about how Wisconsin under Bo would have these players for 5 years, how they completely bought into his system and never left. How infuriating that was. Nobody transferred in. Nobody of note ever transferred out. When an 11th guy on the roster left, scoop mocked them mercilessly.
Shaka is doing his version of the same thing. Recruiting good-not-great players that fit his system. Getting buy in on his culture. Developing the crap out of them. Year to year improvement. Same tune, different lyrics.
I think the bolded is where Gard is falling well short of Bo. Bo's recruiting was actually better than the way it is now told, he pulled in a fair number of high talent guys--Gard isn't. And so far at least, Gard can't develop his players the way Bo could.
Bagders need to give Greggo a lifetime contract.
Quote from: MU82 on November 29, 2023, 11:40:55 AM
I don't think it would be "throwing away the model" to do something similar to Morsell/Kur. I think Shaka would agree with that statement, but I don't profess to know for sure.
After losing O-Max this year, it would've been easy to throw in after some of the prized portal wings, but we stuck with Jop. Didn't even bring anyone in to compete for those minutes and there really wasn't much noise behind the scenes either. That was even after I had heard we would be active if O-Max stayed in the draft. When you are perceived to be this close to a title, I can't imagine anyone would have faulted us for going hard after an Olivier Nkamhoua, Keshad Johnson, or Grant Nelson type player. But O-Max left and we were still silent in the portal.
No way to know for sure, and maybe it's different if we have 3-4 players all leave at once (say Oso, Tyler, Kam, and Chase all end up in the draft next year and sign with agents early) but this offseason we had the perfect opportunity to go after someone and when push came to shove, didn't seem to inquire much at all.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 29, 2023, 11:37:56 AM
It can and has, but the reality is everyone has down years. At that point, the question is do you throw out the model or do you have faith in your roster and use the down year as a building block for the next year? I'm honestly not sure, but it would not surprise me at all if we avoid the portal even in years where the roster isn't a surefire top-25 team just to reinforce for current and future players that being part of this system means you work your way up and the staff won't throw you over when there are bumps in the road.
I keep thinking back to that "first two years, nothing but culture" comment from when Shaka was first hired. I think it's entirely possible that long-term culture will remain more important that short-term success, even if that means having a bumpy season here or there.
I'm not saying there will be tons of them Brew, but we will get some transfers and burger boys in the next decade. And it won't disrupt our culture.
Quote from: MU82 on November 29, 2023, 11:38:36 AM
He made an adjustment on the fly last night. His 4th and 5th attempts were definitely better than his previous three, with a better release and more arc. But overall, I agree that he has nice form. He also has a good feel for when he's really open and when it's a good time to take one. And he has a better all-around game than some think; that alley-oop to Amadou was pretty.
Like you, I keep waiting for the floodgates to open. I thought maybe it happened when he drained those two big ones against Kansas, but maybe it'll be Saturday!
It was mentioned previously, but Gold just needs a tiny bit more arc on his shot. His form is really good, so I think it's just a matter of time.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on November 29, 2023, 11:43:56 AM
Bagders need to give Greggo a lifetime contract.
Fortunately they basically have since it automatically adds another year after each season.
Marquette is once again a national program that is recognizable and pure joy to watch. On the flipside Wisky is, has, and has always been the epitome of pure boredom combined with an ignominious fan base. If by some fluke of nature UW beat MU 100 times in a row I would still much prefer to be an MU fan and commiserate with the MU fan base.
As for Gold, he'll be a playa once he shakes off the nerves and the fear of makin' a mistake, hey?
How will Shaka fare when Wojo's guys r gowne????
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 28, 2023, 10:14:18 PM
Yes Goose. Adding a few 6'7 switchables would not suck.
Muggsy.....let me introduce you to Demarius Owens.......Parham is probably a 6'9 switchable......
Quote from: Jay Bee on November 29, 2023, 04:31:15 PM
How will Shaka fare when Wojo's guys r gowne????
Open question if he can replace Oso.
I think we'll be fine on the guards and fwds....two-thirds of the ex-Oso mins and points from the kansas game are Shaka's recruits or transfers.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 29, 2023, 10:29:07 AM
Marquette's style of play is also another feather in Shaka's cap. Do not be surprised if we add a few burger boys and impact transfers in the years to come.
? Have you listened to Shaka in the last few years?
I would be VERY surprised to see him add a transfer. That isnt the route he's going and he's discussed it ad nauseum.
Quote from: MU82 on November 29, 2023, 11:40:55 AM
I don't think it would be "throwing away the model" to do something similar to Morsell/Kur. I think Shaka would agree with that statement, but I don't profess to know for sure.
Those two were stop gap fillers until Shaka could start to implement his plan. He is recruiting for the long term.....3 and 4 year players.
Parham looks like a great replacement for Oso to me but obviously the proof will be in the pudding ....so to speak.
Oso didn't look much like the Oso we have now 2-3 years ago.
I don't think Parham is as athletic as Oso.....but he can pass and move.....and he's a better shooter.
Quote from: We R Final Four on November 29, 2023, 04:51:50 PM
? Have you listened to Shaka in the last few years?
I would be VERY surprised to see him add a transfer. That isnt the route he's going and he's discussed it ad nauseum.
I don't think it will happen a lot but I do believe it will occur on occasion.
Quote from: We R Final Four on November 29, 2023, 04:51:50 PM
? Have you listened to Shaka in the last few years?
I would be VERY surprised to see him add a transfer. That isnt the route he's going and he's discussed it ad nauseum.
Disagree
Quote from: tower912 on November 29, 2023, 05:32:29 PM
Why
I don't believe Shaka WILL NOT or REFUSES to consider transfers. It's just not his preference. Sometimes, you have little choice.
The comment was "I'd be shocked to see Shaka add a transfer... in the coming YEARS"
I would not. Lots of things can happen in future years
Quote from: We R Final Four on November 29, 2023, 04:59:49 PM
Those two were stop gap fillers until Shaka could start to implement his plan. He is recruiting for the long term.....3 and 4 year players.
Yes he is. That's what he wants to do. But stuff happens.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 29, 2023, 11:48:10 AM
No way to know for sure, and maybe it's different if we have 3-4 players all leave at once
No maybe, IMHO. It would be different.
It would be very easy for Shaka to explain, too: "It is our philosophy to build from within and reward the guys who are already here. But we had an unexpected hole in our roster, so we decided to bring in these very fine, team-oriented veterans who will fit our culture perfectly. The returning guys will love playing with them, and it will be seamless. We aren't changing our philosophy or culture at all."
IMO, Shaka will lean to signing 2-3 year transfers vs. one year guys. I was disappointed that he did not add a guy this offseason but they're a lot of unknowns for next year. Signing a 2-3 guy this year might not be a great fit next year. I think Shaka will definitely have incoming transfers down the road, but more likely guys that will be here more than a year.
Quote from: Goose on November 29, 2023, 06:00:17 PM
IMO, Shaka will lean to signing 2-3 year transfers vs. one year guys. I was disappointed that he did not add a guy this offseason but they're a lot of unknowns for next year. Signing a 2-3 guy this year might not be a great fit next year. I think Shaka will definitely have incoming transfers down the road, but more likely guys that will be here more than a year.
Correct. Not all transfers are created equal. Plus, regardless of culture, some piece being counted on will transfer during the time Shaka is here. It's the nature of the sport.
I do believe he wants to create teams based on growth and relationships. Relationships can be forged in a number of ways and that's why that avenue, transfers, will never be closed
I think some folks here who are Shaka fans aren't giving him enough credit for being able to sell whatever he does to whomever needs selling.
If he does make any "exceptions" - and I firmly believe he would if he needed to - he would have absolutely no trouble convincing whoever he needs to convince that it's all perfect, and that the philosophy and culture are 100% still in place.
Quote from: MU82 on November 29, 2023, 06:30:45 PM
I think some folks here who are Shaka fans aren't giving him enough credit for being able to sell whatever he does to whomever needs selling.
If he does make any "exceptions" - and I firmly believe he would if he needed to - he would have absolutely no trouble convincing whoever he needs to convince that it's all perfect, and that the philosophy and culture are 100% still in place.
Exactly.
It's what scoop does best.
1. Analysis
2. Create absolutes
3. Nuance occurs absolute is not true
4. Turn self into pretzel defending why 2. Wasn't wrong
I gave an example earlier of the type of scenario that would, IMO, engender taking a transfer. This coming offseason, the scenario I can envision that would cause Shaka to take a transfer is if Gold either declared or went home to stay, in combination with Oso going to the NBA.
I do not think that will happen.
Quote from: Jay Bee on November 29, 2023, 05:50:23 PM
I don't believe Shaka WILL NOT or REFUSES to consider transfers. It's just not his preference. Sometimes, you have little choice.
The comment was "I'd be shocked to see Shaka add a transfer... in the coming YEARS"
I would not. Lots of things can happen in future years
I didn't say WILL NOT or REFUSES......Muggsy said he would not be surprised.....I said I would.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 29, 2023, 06:36:52 PM
It's what scoop does best.
1. Analysis
2. Create absolutes
3. Nuance occurs absolute is not true
4. Turn self into pretzel defending why 2. Wasn't wrong
There are several experts here. :)
Quote from: MU82 on November 29, 2023, 05:52:59 PM
Yes he is. That's what he wants to do. But stuff happens.
No maybe, IMHO. It would be different.
It would be very easy for Shaka to explain, too: "It is our philosophy to build from within and reward the guys who are already here. But we had an unexpected hole in our roster, so we decided to bring in these very fine, team-oriented veterans who will fit our culture perfectly. The returning guys will love playing with them, and it will be seamless. We aren't changing our philosophy or culture at all."
Of course. But your reference to Morsell and Kur as evidence of what Shaka has done....is not where Shaka is now or where MUBB is headed.
Quote from: We R Final Four on November 29, 2023, 06:46:03 PM
Of course. But your reference to Morsell and Kur as evidence of what Shaka has done....is not where Shaka is now or where MUBB is headed.
We had a roster hole that needed filling. It
could happen again. Shaka filled the last one with experienced players such as Morsell and Kur. It is not crazy to think he'd do something similar if and when there's a next time. And Shaka would have absolutely no problem selling it.
That's my thesis, and I'm sticking to it until proven wrong.
Quote from: We R Final Four on November 29, 2023, 06:42:18 PM
I didn't say WILL NOT or REFUSES......Muggsy said he would not be surprised.....I said I would.
I didn't say you said WILL NOT or REFUSES. I said I don't believe he does either.
You did not just say you'd be surprised. You said, " I would be VERY surprised to see him add a transfer. That isnt the route he's going and he's discussed it ad nauseum"
So... "VERY surprised" and "That isn't the route he's going"... now changed to "surprised" is better... but still too much
Quote from: MU82 on November 29, 2023, 07:07:39 PM
We had a roster hole that needed filling. It could happen again. Shaka filled the last one with experienced players such as Morsell and Kur. It is not crazy to think he'd do something similar if and when there's a next time. And Shaka would have absolutely no problem selling it.
That's my thesis, and I'm sticking to it until proven wrong.
He also took Zach last season
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 29, 2023, 08:04:29 PM
He also took Zach last season
Speaking of which...neither Wrightsil nor Ellis doing anything after transferring down. Wonder how much injuries are still bothering them.
Check that: Wrightsil hasn't played at all
I don't think Shaka is fundamentally against transfers. I think he is against the NIL bidding war that drives so much of the high end transfers. Its this NIL bidding that undermines team chemistry. I absolutely agree with this position and feel it is a huge threat to the revenue sports if the NCAA doesn't find a way to manage it.(up till now they've just stood back and let the situation happen). Hopefully they will find a way to regulate this. Until that happens Shaka will take a transfer on HIS terms. The more successful MU is the more likely some kids in the proper situation will agree
Quote from: Jay Bee on November 29, 2023, 07:12:50 PM
I didn't say you said WILL NOT or REFUSES. I said I don't believe he does either.
You did not just say you'd be surprised. You said, " I would be VERY surprised to see him add a transfer. That isnt the route he's going and he's discussed it ad nauseum"
So... "VERY surprised" and "That isn't the route he's going"... now changed to "surprised" is better... but still too much
Yes....I would be VERY SURPRISED.
Quote from: MU82 on November 29, 2023, 07:07:39 PM
We had a roster hole that needed filling. It could happen again. Shaka filled the last one with experienced players such as Morsell and Kur. It is not crazy to think he'd do something similar if and when there's a next time. And Shaka would have absolutely no problem selling it.
That's my thesis, and I'm sticking to it until proven wrong.
There were plenty of scoopers.....who claimed to know ball....who gave us all the names of the top transfers that would replace OMax......
But....those transfers never got the call from Shaka....much to the disappointment of those same scoopers.
Shaka doesn't give a rat's butt if a player is a transfer or a high school recruit. Just that they are a fit for the culture and what the team needs at the moment. If there's a player like that in the portal, he'll be getting a call from Shaka!
Quote from: We R Final Four on November 29, 2023, 09:07:26 PM
There were plenty of scoopers.....who claimed to know ball....who gave us all the names of the top transfers that would replace OMax......
But....those transfers never got the call from Shaka....much to the disappointment of those same scoopers.
I certainly didn't list a bunch of potential O-Max replacements. I also don't know who Shaka did or didn't call; not sure how you know, but I'll take your word for it.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 29, 2023, 10:12:38 PM
Shaka doesn't give a rat's butt if a player is a transfer or a high school recruit. Just that they are a fit for the culture and what the team needs at the moment. If there's a player like that in the portal, he'll be getting a call from Shaka!
I just don't think this is true anymore, at least according to Shaka. He made explicit in preseason media that long-term development of high school recruits is fundamental to MU culture vs. bringing in transfers annually. Will some of those HS recruits not work out? Will the occasional transfer sign? I'm sure the answer to yes is both. But I don't think we should expect to see impact transfers sought out on a yearly basis.
I never saw a list of potential transfers to fill the Omax spot. I definitely stated I thought the spot would be filled and was surprised it was not. Would be curious to see that list and see where those guys landed.
As for TAMU post, makes perfect sense to me. It would be very naive to think there will never be a year that transfer portal will be used by Shaka.
No one said never.
Several of us are talking over each other here because I think most of us generally agree:
Shaka very much prefers to build by recruiting, developing, retaining/rewarding. But should a definite need arise and the right candidate(s) be available, he would be open to using the transfer portal.
That's how I see it, anyway, and I think that's how most others do, too.
I'd love to see Shaka never even be tempted to use the portal, because that would mean he has a team full of studs every season.
You are correct. The hairs have been split fine and the pedantic hackles have been up.
Quote from: MU82 on November 30, 2023, 07:11:59 AM
Several of us are talking over each other here because I think most of us generally agree:
Shaka very much prefers to build by recruiting, developing, retaining/rewarding. But should a definite need arise and the right candidate(s) be available, he would be open to using the transfer portal.
That's how I see it, anyway, and I think that's how most others do, too.
I'd love to see Shaka never even be tempted to use the portal, because that would mean he has a team full of studs every season.
Disagree. "Definite need ... then open." I don't believe it and think it's criminal if that's the case.
I don't think transfers are ignored — it's just not preferred and most transfers may not be of interested to us. But, some here believe MU thinks of transfers as the pure evil and solely a last, desperate resort
Who thinks they are evil? MU has a long and glorious history of taking in transfers and JuCos. Shaka took in several when he arrived.
See: splitting hairs and pedantic hackles.
Quote from: tower912 on November 30, 2023, 07:22:07 AM
See: splitting hairs and pedantic hackles.
I wonder if that web domain is available. Has a nice ring to it
Scoop should change to that.
tower
Shaka is four of four in transfers thus far. The Kolek transfer is a top five transfer in MU history and possibly will end up top of the list.
Quote from: Goose on November 30, 2023, 07:58:24 AM
tower
Shaka is four of four in transfers thus far. The Kolek transfer is a top five transfer in MU history and possibly will end up top of the list.
4 for 5. Hard to suggest that Wrightsil was a success.
Sultan
I stand corrected.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 29, 2023, 10:12:38 PM
Shaka doesn't give a rat's butt if a player is a transfer or a high school recruit. Just that they are a fit for the culture and what the team needs at the moment. If there's a player like that in the portal, he'll be getting a call from Shaka!
Yep. This 100%
Quote from: MU82 on November 29, 2023, 11:06:39 AM
I used to think this, TAMU, but just really watching him play this season I disagree now.
He's tall enough, he's not scrawny, he can get to the hoop, he is a great finisher, he has imagination around the bucket, and he has NBA 3-point range. He's become a decent defender, too. And he's a good enough decision-maker and ballhandler to be a combo guard.
I actually think he's got a pretty darn good chance at an NBA career. Because of his shooting alone, he's ahead of guys like Blue, McNeal, Buycks, Wilson and a few others who didn't quite make it.
All IMHO of course.
Agree with this analysis. Kam will play in the NBA, and have a nice career.
Quote from: Goose on November 30, 2023, 07:58:24 AM
tower
Shaka is four of four in transfers thus far. The Kolek transfer is a top five transfer in MU history and possibly will end up top of the list.
Interesting. Just listing top 5 transfers would tax ones memory
Who would some be, and would that include JUCO transfers?
This is not in any order of greatness, but I believe on the championship team there was Whitehead, Boylan, Ulice Payne and Jim Dudley.
In a different era, DJO, Buycks, Butler, Crowder, Acker, Lockett.
Robert Jackson proved useful
The transfer/Juco list is a long one. MU used the transfer/juco market to perfection prior to the portal era.
Tyrone Baldwin was decent.
First Marquette Hour last night.
Jen Lada was not on her game last night, but starting around 14:15 Shaka again addresses his approach to transfers.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/6S8rwAc5REAbBs2flhUcuB?si=HoTDOUCpTJuV_ZXWe9WMBQ
She's not great. How many "y'alls" can be shoehorned into one show?
I legit laughed last year when talking about the Creighton game in Omaha, she said something along the lines of "you're used to that hostile of an atmosphere after DePaul" and Shaka was incredulous about it.
She's much better on TV. With the sound turned down.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 01, 2023, 01:38:44 PM
She's not great. How many "y'alls" can be shoehorned into one show?
I legit laughed last year when talking about the Creighton game in Omaha, she said something along the lines of "you're used to that hostile of an atmosphere after DePaul" and Shaka was incredulous about it.
I counted 14 when I listened earlier today.
She said the guys played great in Maui....Shaka said well Honolulu actually.
She self promoted her ESPN football spot several times.
She asked Shaka about handling transfers....he said we dont have any Jen.
She was a little rough...hope she improves.
Quote from: We R Final Four on December 01, 2023, 01:49:42 PM
I counted 14 when I listened earlier today.
She said the guys played great in Maui....Shaka said well Honolulu actually.
She self promoted her ESPN football spot several times.
She asked Shaka about handling transfers....he said we dont have any Jen.
She was a little rough...hope she improves.
Oh yikes... at the 3:19 mark I swear she says Marquette won the B10. :-[
Now that's quite the feat for MU. Then again, it explains our disappointing exit in the tournament!
Luckily we're back in the BE this year!
maybe there is a certain poster on this board that could call out Jen directly on all this...
Quote from: We R Final Four on December 01, 2023, 01:49:42 PM
I counted 14 when I listened earlier today.
She said the guys played great in Maui....Shaka said well Honolulu actually.
She self promoted her ESPN football spot several times.
She asked Shaka about handling transfers....he said we dont have any Jen.
She was a little rough...hope she improves.
Quote from: PointWarrior on December 01, 2023, 04:55:34 PM
maybe there is a certain poster on this board that could call out Jen directly on all this...
You'alls listen to it?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 30, 2023, 11:53:53 AM
Tyrone Baldwin was decent.
Bob Dukiet was a master at working the portal!
Baldwin was a solid contributor for two years at Marquette.
Quote from: Goose on November 30, 2023, 11:48:21 AM
This is not in any order of greatness, but I believe on the championship team there was Whitehead, Boylan, Ulice Payne and Jim Dudley.
Lackey
Luke was a recruit.
Sultan
Sean Elliot was a big get for KO as well.
Quote from: Goose on December 01, 2023, 08:50:04 PM
Luke was a recruit.
Correction noted . I forgot Freshman were not eligible then
https://m.facebook.com/AlMcGuiresWarriors/photos/a.528174263961728/3356772891101837/?type=3