MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: Goose on November 01, 2023, 05:42:12 PM
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RIP Robert Montgomery Knight
One of my greatest all time love-hate people in sports. Loved him enough to drive to Assembly Hall by myself to see him coach. He was one of a kind.
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A complicated legacy for sure. But when he was at the top of his game, I’m not sure there was anyone better on the sideline.
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The man could coach.
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Incredible coach, complicated human being. Love/hate is a great way to describe him.
This is the definitive Bobby Knight profile
https://www.si.com/college/2015/01/14/rabbit-hunter-frank-deford-bobby-kight-si-60
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A legend. RIP.
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A very good coach who became great when he recruited Buckner, Benson, and May.
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Incredible coach, complicated human being. Love/hate is a great way to describe him.
This is the definitive Bobby Knight profile
https://www.si.com/college/2015/01/14/rabbit-hunter-frank-deford-bobby-kight-si-60
Complicated is a perfect way to describe him. He was certainly a flawed man with an insane temper, but he was a fantastic developer of both players and young men who is commended for such by countless people. And plenty of people who have glowing stories about him, as much as people who thought he was an ass.
Also was a very underrated color analyst when he was on his game
My 2 personal favorite Knight anecdotes are his comments after his dustup with Joe B Hall
“If it had actually been malicious, I would have blasted that f***er into the seats”
And then his creation of Ivan Renko
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Complicated is the right word. All of the things said, good and bad, have basis in fact. An all time great coach. Criminal charges in Puerto Rico. Choked a player. Got into it with a student, which ultimately got him fired. (Take that, Dabo)
I remember marveling at his coaching. If I had the talent, I would not have wanted to play for him. I would not have let my son play for him.
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His offenses were always fun to watch. Disciplined and explosive. Some of his best offensive teams came after the shot clock was implemented.
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I wonder if they'll bury him upside down.
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His offenses were always fun to watch. Disciplined and explosive. Some of his best offensive teams came after the shot clock was implemented.
His stars were always better college players than pros. Except for maybe Isaiah Thomas.
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Wags
I really enjoyed Bobby as an analyst when he brought his A or B game. I learned a lot about basketball via spending time with Majerus talking basketball and Rick referenced Bobby an awful lot. When Bobby was an analyst I always tried to learn something from during the telecast.
In my personal career I have always had cast in stone rule to follow and learn from the smartest people or companies and I think a lot coaches used similar mindset in learning from Bobby.
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The guy obviously knew hoops. Didn't he and Al get along pretty well? I know Knight disliked Wooden.
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His stars were always better college players than pros. Except for maybe Isaiah Thomas.
Those late 80’s and early 90’s teams seemed to always have guys you thought would be stars at the next level and never made it big but in college, they could get buckets.
He also played freshmen pretty heavy minutes.
The closest modern comp I have would be Jay Wright with regards to offensively beautiful basketball teams. I’m sure there is a way to find out, but I’d be curious what kind of tempo his teams ran with the advent of the shot clock. They dropped 106 against UCLA in a regional final
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The guy obviously knew hoops. Didn't he and Al get along pretty well? I know Knight disliked Wooden.
He liked Al because he beat him twice in the dance
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Muggsy
Al thought very highly of Bobby and feeling was mutual.
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I remember marveling at his coaching. If I had the talent, I would not have wanted to play for him. I would not have let my son play for him.
Yep, there are too many great coaches who don't physically and/or psychologically abuse their players, so there's no reason to play for an abusive bully.
Once top recruits (and their parents) started agreeing with you and me about that, tower, Bobby could no longer compete for titles.
He was still a brilliant coach, so he could still get teams with decent talent into the NCAA tournament, but his last six Indiana teams won zero Big Ten titles and a grand total of 2 NCAAT games.
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Muggsy
Al thought very highly of Bobby and feeling was mutual.
I feel like we would have gotten both Isaiah and Mark Aguirre if Al hadn't retired but obviously Knight did a great job coaching Thomas.
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Thomas was the only player he coached to become an NBA All-Star.
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players came to play for bobby knight knowing full well what he was about. winning was hard work...bobby knight was a WINNER! those who came to play for coach knight won both on the floor and off.
RIP coach!
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If only he had taken da Badger job, hey?
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Lot of parallels with Bob Huggins, minus 3 National Championships.
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If only he had taken da Badger job, hey?
That story never gets old, 50 years later. Always enjoy telling it, especially if there's a UW fan within earshot.
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He liked Al because he beat him twice in the dance
He liked Al when he coached Army and Al beat him. He liked Al.
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That story never gets old, 50 years later. Always enjoy telling it, especially if there's a UW fan within earshot.
There is an alternate history where UW would have had both Bobby Knight and Bo Schembechler as coaches. (Bo was the leading candidate to be the football coach when they decided to hire the internal candidate instead.)
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He liked Al when he coached Army and Al beat him. He liked Al.
He liked him more after beating him in the dance
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players came to play for bobby knight knowing full well what he was about. winning was hard work...bobby knight was a WINNER! those who came to play for coach knight won both on the floor and off.
There are plenty of examples, especially later in his career, where his coaching went well beyond simply working hard.
There is no need to whitewash his legacy - as I said, it's complicated.
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A very good coach who became great when he recruited Buckner, Benson, and May.
This is so wrong. He went 63-1 with those guys over two years and if Scott May doesn’t break his wrist he’s undefeated back to back. Who were the NBA stars on that team? He won a National Championship with a lineup of Steve Alford, Darryl Thomas, Dean Garrett, Keith Smart and Ricky Calloway. Really good players, sure. Great ones? He won another NC with Landon Turner, Randy Wittman, Ray Tolbert, Ted Kitchel and sophomore Isiah Thomas. See any Jabbars, Waltons or Jordans? Other than Zeke, see anything like Worthy, Ford, Wicks, Rowe, Ewing, Magic, etc., etc., etc.? 11 Big 10 titles and 3 NCAA titles with one (1) NBA all pro. At the top of his game he was the best pure coach ever at the college level. He had his demons, and it seldom if ever ends well for people like him. But if a guy can be a genius at coaching basketball he was that guy.
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Knight said Jordan was the best player he'd ever seen and by a "considerable margin".
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Knight said Jordan was the best player he'd ever seen and by a "considerable margin".
Coached him on the 1984 Olympic team. Told his friend, the Blazer GM at the time, that he had to draft him. But they didn’t because they had Clyde, and the rest is history.
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This is so wrong. He went 63-1 with those guys over two years and if Scott May doesn’t break his wrist he’s undefeated back to back. Who were the NBA stars on that team? He won a National Championship with a lineup of Steve Alford, Darryl Thomas, Dean Garrett, Keith Smart and Ricky Calloway. Really good players, sure. Great ones? He won another NC with Landon Turner, Randy Wittman, Ray Tolbert, Ted Kitchel and sophomore Isiah Thomas. See any Jabbars, Waltons or Jordans? Other than Zeke, see anything like Worthy, Ford, Wicks, Rowe, Ewing, Magic, etc., etc., etc.? 11 Big 10 titles and 3 NCAA titles with one (1) NBA all pro. At the top of his game he was the best pure coach ever at the college level. He had his demons, and it seldom if ever ends well for people like him. But if a guy can be a genius at coaching basketball he was that guy.
Yep. As I said, Thomas was his only future NBA all star.
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Knight said Jordan was the best player he'd ever seen and by a "considerable margin".
Only guy who could hold Jordan under 20? Dean Smith.
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Knight was an outstanding coach. His Indiana squads played tremendous team ball with very few turnovers .
His intensity level was off the charts. Made him must watch TV back in the day
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This is so wrong. He went 63-1 with those guys over two years and if Scott May doesn’t break his wrist he’s undefeated back to back. Who were the NBA stars on that team? He won a National Championship with a lineup of Steve Alford, Darryl Thomas, Dean Garrett, Keith Smart and Ricky Calloway. Really good players, sure. Great ones? He won another NC with Landon Turner, Randy Wittman, Ray Tolbert, Ted Kitchel and sophomore Isiah Thomas. See any Jabbars, Waltons or Jordans? Other than Zeke, see anything like Worthy, Ford, Wicks, Rowe, Ewing, Magic, etc., etc., etc.? 11 Big 10 titles and 3 NCAA titles with one (1) NBA all pro. At the top of his game he was the best pure coach ever at the college level. He had his demons, and it seldom if ever ends well for people like him. But if a guy can be a genius at coaching basketball he was that guy.
Utter nonsense. He had 27 All-Americans. I think he had 8-10 Big Ten MVPs.
He was a great coach but he won because he had tons of great college players.
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Utter nonsense. He had 27 All-Americans. I think he had 8-10 Big Ten MVPs.
He was a great coach but he won because he had tons of great college players.
He coached them up. Many were great disappointments at the next level.
Honestly you might be the only person who has ever said “Bobby Knight won because he was a great recruiter.”
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He coached them up. Many were great disappointments at the next level.
Honestly you might be the only person who has ever said “Bobby Knight won because he was a great recruiter.”
Spot on. He could take his and beat yours or take yours and beat his - got more out of his players than any coach I ever saw.
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Coach Knight ruined what should have been two great days in my youth. They were:
In 1973, the Mideast Regionals came to Nashville. Al McGuire and our Marquette Warriors were the favorite to win the Mideast. I had my tickets and was all excited to see Coach McGuire and our Warriors kick some Hoosier backside. in what was then my hometown. Suffice to say, it didn't happen. Marquette jumped out to an early lead but Coach Knight, ever the excellent coach, out-coached Al McGuire that day. We lost (this was a year before Marquette became "we" though my Dad was a very proud MU engineering grad).
Three years later, the two met again. Indiana was undefeated and the best ranked team in the nation. We were ranked second and I believe had only one or at most two losses. Coach Knight won again on his way to leading the last undefeated college basketball team in the nation.
A year later, with that team gone, we finally won THE big one!
Coach Knight made up for some of it a few laters later! In 1982, I was driving in Southern Indiana, about an hour north of Evansville when an Indiana State Trooper pulls me over. I get up and approach the Trooper (that was the courtesy in those days) and the Trooper looks at me and says, "my you're a big one! Did you, ever, well, play basketball?" I looked at the Trooper and said, "no, but I admire and respect the job Bob Knight did with Indiana this year!"
Away went the ticket book and the Trooper said, "I'll write you a warning... Go Hoosiers!" I got back in my car and told Ms. Dgies, who said, "... but you hate Bob Knight!" I looked at her and said, "not anymore!"
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He coached them up. Many were great disappointments at the next level.
Honestly you might be the only person who has ever said “Bobby Knight won because he was a great recruiter.”
Of course I said nothing of the sort. You might be the only person who says Knight was so great that he turned players into high school all-Americans before he coached them.
He was a great coach - but he won because he had great players. Like they all do.
Belichick doesn’t win anymore. popovich doesn’t win any more. Any guesses why?
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Spot on. He could take his and beat yours or take yours and beat his - got more out of his players than any coach I ever saw.
Nice cliche. But it is nonsense. He would not take a 6-18 team and beat Buckner, Benson, and May.
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Of course I said nothing of the sort.
Yeah you did.
A very good coach who became great when he recruited Buckner, Benson, and May.
Again, he coached ONE player that became an NBA All-Star. Compare that to coaches like Wooden, Smith, Coach K, etc. The talent he was coaching was less than his contemporaries.
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Nice cliche. But it is nonsense. He would not take a 6-18 team and beat Buckner, Benson, and May.
So is Wojo a 3 time national champion if he has Bob Knight's teams?
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So is Wojo a 3 time national champion if he has Bob Knight's teams?
No. That is why I said Knight was a great coach and have said that Wojo was a terrible coach.
Now, I’ll ask you a question. Has Belichick forgotten how to coach?
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No. That is why I said Knight was a great coach and have said that Wojo was a terrible coach.
Now, I’ll ask you a question. Has Belichick forgotten how to coach?
It’s not like his teams at the end of his tenure at Indiana were all that dissimilar in makeup to previous Indiana teams. He had guys that would play in the NBA, even if it was brief. He still won a lot of games but they definitely weren’t the threat they had once been.
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No. That is why I said Knight was a great coach and have said that Wojo was a terrible coach.
Now, I’ll ask you a question. Has Belichick forgotten how to coach?
Belichick's problems are beyond simple coaching. He got incredibly complacent with his staffing, namely his coordinators, and lost his touch as a GM when the Pats Way of the 2000s and 2010s stopped working/they couldn't rehabilitate everyone.
As for Pop who you previously mentioned, I don't want to extrapolate too much, but his Spurs teams fell off around the time he lost his wife and haven't come back...
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Belichick's problems are beyond simple coaching. He got incredibly complacent with his staffing, namely his coordinators, and lost his touch as a GM when the Pats Way of the 2000s and 2010s stopped working/they couldn't rehabilitate everyone.
As for Pop who you previously mentioned, I don't want to extrapolate too much, but his Spurs teams fell off around the time he lost his wife and haven't come back...
I’d contend that it was when he lost Duncan, Parker, and Ginobli.
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Is Knight on the college basketball coaching Mount Rushmore? Easy to get it down to 5, Knight, Krzyzewski, Rupp, Smith, Wooden. Hard to get it down to 4.
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Eye
He is 100% on my top four list.
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Nice cliche. But it is nonsense. He would not take a 6-18 team and beat Buckner, Benson, and May.
Bob Knight at Army: 6 seasons, 102-50 .671%
Coach K at Army: 5 seasons, 73-59 .553%
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Rupp only belongs on Mt. Flushmore.
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Rupp only belongs on Mt. Flushmore.
Agree 100 percent. Adolph the Bigot was an ass.
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I probably have a different take on Rupp than most because of an interview I did with John Green a few years ago. He was UCLA's best player on their '62 Final Four team. Obviously he knew I was recording the nearly hour-long interview in advance. Before I even had a chance to take the recorder out of my bag, he went out of his way to mention that Rupp was not racist, but that circumstances of where he was coaching made it nearly impossible for him to do the things he wanted to do. I have no way to confirm that, but I also know it's also stood with me for 2 1/2 years that a big-time college basketball player went out of his way to say that so someone would know that when it had nothing to do with the interview that was forthcoming.
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Cancelling Adolph Rupp! Sad!
Also, K over Knight 10 out of 10 times.
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Is Knight on the college basketball coaching Mount Rushmore? Easy to get it down to 5, Knight, Krzyzewski, Rupp, Smith, Wooden. Hard to get it down to 4.
Maybe a hot take, but I'll take Knight over Dean Smith. I think you can argue prime Knight over Rupp pretty comfortably too. Results wise, Rupp after integration was basically Mark Few.
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Maybe a hot take, but I'll take Knight over Dean Smith. I think you can argue prime Knight over Rupp pretty comfortably too. Results wise, Rupp after integration was basically Mark Few.
I’d take Knight over Smith 10 out of 10. Before the expansion of the tournament, which would have been a tougher league to win? Big Ten or ACC?
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Maybe a hot take, but I'll take Knight over Dean Smith.
I would definitely agree with you here. Knight upset UNC in the '81 Final, but also upset him in the Sweet 16 in 1984. That '84 Tarheel team was absolutely loaded as defending champions - undefeated in the ACC than year and probably the only team that was going to have a chance against Georgetown.
Of course IU then lost the E8 game against #7 seed Virginia...
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I would definitely agree with you here. Knight upset UNC in the '81 Final, but also upset him in the Sweet 16 in 1984. That '84 Tarheel team was absolutely loaded as defending champions - undefeated in the ACC than year and probably the only team that was going to have a chance against Georgetown.
Of course IU then lost the E8 game against #7 seed Virginia...
Tourney is a crapshoot
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I would definitely agree with you here. Knight upset UNC in the '81 Final, but also upset him in the Sweet 16 in 1984. That '84 Tarheel team was absolutely loaded as defending champions - undefeated in the ACC than year and probably the only team that was going to have a chance against Georgetown.
Of course IU then lost the E8 game against #7 seed Virginia...
How could they be defending champions when NC State won it in 1983?
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I've got Dean, and it's not particularly close.
Better winning percentage, twice as many Final Fours, more conference titles (17 to 11).
You can argue that Dean had more talent, and you'd be right. But recruiting talent is kind of a huge part of a coach's job.
Lastly, Dean remained a great coach to the end ... three Finals Fours in his last five seasons, including a championship. Knight faded into mediocrity ... zero FFs, zero conference titles, one Sweet 16 in his final 12 years of coaching.
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How could they be defending champions when NC State won it in 1983?
Ah. You are correct. UNC won in '82.
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I've got Dean, and it's not particularly close.
Better winning percentage, twice as many Final Fours, more conference titles (17 to 11).
You can argue that Dean had more talent, and you'd be right. But recruiting talent is kind of a huge part of a coach's job.
Lastly, Dean remained a great coach to the end ... three Finals Fours in his last five seasons, including a championship. Knight faded into mediocrity ... zero FFs, zero conference titles, one Sweet 16 in his final 12 years of coaching.
And he was a far better person, fwiw
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Duke's back-to-back championship teams of 1991 and 1992 had one future NBA All-Star -- Grant Hill -- and he was more of a role player than star as a frosh and soph at Duke, averaging 11.2 points in 1991 (fifth on the team) and 14.0 points in 1992 (third on the team).
Laettner and Hurley were great college players, and Thomas Hill, Brian Davis and Antonio Lang were good college players. K needed them all to win those titles.
Knight had plenty of players who were outstanding in college, players that every other coach at the time would have killed (or at least choked Neil Reed) to have, even if they didn't go on to be NBA All-Stars. Benson, Buckner, May, Wilkerson, Alford, Daryl Thomas, Tolbert, Wittman, Woodson, and so on and so on.
Even great coaches need great players.
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Duke's back-to-back championship teams of 1991 and 1992 had one future NBA All-Star -- Grant Hill -- and he was more of a role player than star as a frosh and soph at Duke, averaging 11.2 points in 1991 (fifth on the team) and 14.0 points in 1992 (third on the team).
Laettner and Hurley were great college players, and Thomas Hill, Brian Davis and Antonio Lang were good college players. K needed them all to win those titles.
Knight had plenty of players who were outstanding in college, players that every other coach at the time would have killed (or at least choked Neil Reed) to have, even if they didn't go on to be NBA All-Stars. Benson, Buckner, May, Wilkerson, Alford, Daryl Thomas, Tolbert, Wittman, Woodson, and so on and so on.
Even great coaches need great players.
Yep, Calbert Cheaney and Alan Henderson had pretty good NBA careers as well.
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Duke's back-to-back championship teams of 1991 and 1992 had one future NBA All-Star -- Grant Hill -- and he was more of a role player than star as a frosh and soph at Duke, averaging 11.2 points in 1991 (fifth on the team) and 14.0 points in 1992 (third on the team).
Laettner and Hurley were great college players, and Thomas Hill, Brian Davis and Antonio Lang were good college players. K needed them all to win those titles.
Knight had plenty of players who were outstanding in college, players that every other coach at the time would have killed (or at least choked Neil Reed) to have, even if they didn't go on to be NBA All-Stars. Benson, Buckner, May, Wilkerson, Alford, Daryl Thomas, Tolbert, Wittman, Woodson, and so on and so on.
Even great coaches need great players.
Depending on your views on Knight, you can look at it one of two ways:
- Knight had tons of success with players who didn't go on to stellar NBA careers.
- Knight routinely recruited highly ranked high school players and failed to develop them into high-level NBA players.
Knight didn't have the talent of some of his peers (Dean, Coach K, John Thompson), but he wasn't bringing scrubs to IU either. Between 1977 and 2000, IU landed 21 McDonald's AAs. Not too bad.
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Depending on your views on Knight, you can look at it one of two ways:
- Knight had tons of success with players who didn't go on to stellar NBA careers.
- Knight routinely recruited highly ranked high school players and failed to develop them into high-level NBA players.
Knight didn't have the talent of some of his peers (Dean, Coach K, John Thompson), but he wasn't bringing scrubs to IU either. Between 1977 and 2000, IU landed 21 McDonald's AAs. Not too bad.
His job wasn't to develop them into NBA players. The game has changed since then. A guy who runs that kind of offense, and has that kind of personality wouldn't be getting near as many McD AA. The players have more leverage now.
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Depending on your views on Knight, you can look at it one of two ways:
- Knight had tons of success with players who didn't go on to stellar NBA careers.
- Knight routinely recruited highly ranked high school players and failed to develop them into high-level NBA players.
Knight didn't have the talent of some of his peers (Dean, Coach K, John Thompson), but he wasn't bringing scrubs to IU either. Between 1977 and 2000, IU landed 21 McDonald's AAs. Not too bad.
Knight successfully recruited very good to great talent until his last 7-8 years at Indiana, and he was a great coach who knew how to produce great teams and great results from that talent. When more great players decided they could have great college careers without being bullied by Bobby, the talent was lesser, and so was the winning.
We see every single year lots of players who are outstanding in college but aren't NBA-star material. We've had a lot of them at Marquette. Hell, Al had a lot of them at Marquette -- I don't remember seeing Thompson, Lackey, Meminger, Lee and Ellis on many NBA All-Star teams.
I know you're not saying any different from all that, Pak.
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Maybe a hot take, but I'll take Knight over Dean Smith. I think you can argue prime Knight over Rupp pretty comfortably too. Results wise, Rupp after integration was basically Mark Few.
100%
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It's wild to me how many people are calling him 'complicated', national press, people on Facebook, and here as well. I suppose if you agree with that sentiment and repeat it enough, others might start believing it. The guy was a jagoff, a crybaby, and a bully, full stop. He only had himself to blame for his lack of self control, leading to his inability to replicate his big stage success later in his career, as players got wise and didn't want to play for such a guy.
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His job wasn't to develop them into NBA players. The game has changed since then. A guy who runs that kind of offense, and has that kind of personality wouldn't be getting near as many McD AA. The players have more leverage now.
I think that is a big part of the difference in the end of career for Knight and Dean Smith. Dean Smith had the cache of coaching the best basketball player of all time who became the biggest athlete brand in history and elevated UNC stature with it. Knight on the other hand had vocal critics, both justified and overzealous, calling into question any number of things about him as a coach.
I don’t think Knight tremendously lost his touch as a coach while Smith didn’t (his coaching at TTU was actually pretty remarkable considering how bad it was in Lubbock. First S16 in a decade and 2004 was just the second time winning a tourney game in 30 years). I just think the marketing around them and their programs fundamentally changed for a number of reasons. While Knight obviously bears a fair amount of responsibility for his IU shine decreasing later on, some of it was beyond just his abilities as a coach/recruiter. On a similar plane, some of the huge boost in appeal and marketing for UNC that Dean Smith benefitted from was not of his doing and beyond just his coaching, unless we’re giving Dean credit for Jordan brand and it’s cache
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I mean if you're looking at pure basketball coaching within the lines I think most would slot Knight ahead of Smith. But when you consider the totality of the job which includes recruiting, relationships, community respect, etc, Dean certainly would be the choice. I have never heard a single negative opinion of Dean Smith other than he should have won more titles with his talent. It's hard to cut down the nets and there is some luck involved for sure.
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On a side note Al McGuire is grossly underrated as an all-time great coach and I'm not just saying this because I am biased. I've seen some if these lists, they're absurd/inexcusable.
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I would rank Smith ahead of Knight. On the court and off.
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I think that is a big part of the difference in the end of career for Knight and Dean Smith. Dean Smith had the cache of coaching the best basketball player of all time who became the biggest athlete brand in history and elevated UNC stature with it. Knight on the other hand had vocal critics, both justified and overzealous, calling into question any number of things about him as a coach.
I don’t think Knight tremendously lost his touch as a coach while Smith didn’t (his coaching at TTU was actually pretty remarkable considering how bad it was in Lubbock. First S16 in a decade and 2004 was just the second time winning a tourney game in 30 years). I just think the marketing around them and their programs fundamentally changed for a number of reasons. While Knight obviously bears a fair amount of responsibility for his IU shine decreasing later on, some of it was beyond just his abilities as a coach/recruiter. On a similar plane, some of the huge boost in appeal and marketing for UNC that Dean Smith benefitted from was not of his doing and beyond just his coaching, unless we’re giving Dean credit for Jordan brand and it’s cache
I think you may be underrating just how good UNC was before MJ came along.
In the 15 seasons pre-Jordan, UNC went to six Final Fours and and three title games. They produced eight all-Americans and future NBA all stars like Bob McAdoo, Bobby Jones, James Worthy and Charlie Scott.
MJ obviously added luster to the brand, but they were an elite program long before he was on the scene. I don't think it's fair to suggest Dean in part owes his late-career success to MJ's brand.
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I would rank Smith ahead of Knight. On the court and off.
Al said he fked up at the Omni going into "The Four Corners" against the Warriors.
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It's wild to me how many people are calling him 'complicated', national press, people on Facebook, and here as well. I suppose if you agree with that sentiment and repeat it enough, others might start believing it. The guy was a jagoff, a crybaby, and a bully, full stop. He only had himself to blame for his lack of self control, leading to his inability to replicate his big stage success later in his career, as players got wise and didn't want to play for such a guy.
I think that’s fair
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It's wild to me how many people are calling him 'complicated', national press, people on Facebook, and here as well. I suppose if you agree with that sentiment and repeat it enough, others might start believing it. The guy was a jagoff, a crybaby, and a bully, full stop. He only had himself to blame for his lack of self control, leading to his inability to replicate his big stage success later in his career, as players got wise and didn't want to play for such a guy.
Complicated is euphemistic way of calling a dead person an a-hole.
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I would rank Smith ahead of Knight. On the court and off.
How about this. Knight was the better coach early on. Smith adapted better.
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Nope. I said what I said.
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I think you may be underrating just how good UNC was before MJ came along.
In the 15 seasons pre-Jordan, UNC went to six Final Fours and and three title games. They produced eight all-Americans and future NBA all stars like Bob McAdoo, Bobby Jones, James Worthy and Charlie Scott.
MJ obviously added luster to the brand, but they were an elite program long before he was on the scene. I don't think it's fair to suggest Dean in part owes his late-career success to MJ's brand.
I’m not underrating UNC as a program, nor implying that MJ was the sole/main reason Dean Smith was so successful after. I’m just saying it didn’t hurt in helping an old coach at the tail end of his career in a very different age of basketball than the majority of his success. Especially when UNC went almost a decade without a FF berth after Jordan left while Duke became a monster in the mid/late 80s with a much younger coach and “newer” brand
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Nope. I said what I said.
Then I will disagree. Knight was clearly better early on.
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Then I will disagree. Knight was clearly better early on.
Clearly?
Knight's first 15 years at IU: 269-117 (.696), three Final Fours, two national titles, eight conference titles
Smith over those same years: 277-118 (.701), four Final Fours, one national title, 10 conference titles
(Note: I think my addition is right here, but please correct me if I'm wrong)
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Complicated is the right word. All of the things said, good and bad, have basis in fact. An all time great coach. Criminal charges in Puerto Rico. Choked a player. Got into it with a student, which ultimately got him fired. (Take that, Dabo)
I remember marveling at his coaching. If I had the talent, I would not have wanted to play for him. I would not have let my son play for him.
Choked a player. LOL. We have a patch on our jersey for a guy who punched a player.
I would love for my son to be recruited by Knight. I would hope i could play for him. It would be a badge of honor to survive that.
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You can have it.
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You can have it.
I with you on this one. I never minded a coach that yelled at me - it meant he was paying attention to what I was doing - but physically abusing players is way over the line.
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I with you on this one. I never minded a coach that yelled at me - it meant he was paying attention to what I was doing - but physically abusing players is way over the line.
AL MCGUIRE PUNCHED A PLAYER!
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AL MCGUIRE PUNCHED A PLAYER!
He should not have done that.
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A friend of a friend once said this...
What people don't see, what they don't understand about Bob
is that he's a warm, sensitive, and funny guy. Yes, funny. The
problem with Bob's sense of humor most of the time is that he
never smiles when he tells a joke. Half the time people don't know
he's joking because they look at his face and all they see is this
deadpan. By the time they realize he's kidding, it's too late.
I think some people know about the warm and sensitive side.
I think this book will show that side quite a bit and I'm glad. Bob
always tried to act so tough— all the screaming and yelling. He's
really not tough, not at all. Get by that and ask for help— or don't
ask for help— and he'll be the first one to offer it. All the critical
things he says about his players— try and criticize one of them
and see what kind of response you get. Be ready to duck, too.
What Bob is, more than anything, is intense. He is intense
about everything he does. If he takes you to a restaurant he wants
you to love that restaurant just the way he does. If you watch
his basketball team he wants you to think it's a great basketball
team— unless he doesn't think it's great. He loves to compete.
He loves to win. But it's never that simple with him because
nothing is simple with Bob. He wants to know how you won and
why you won. And he has to know how you lost and why you
lost. That's to make sure it doesn't happen again. I always used
to say just, "let's win and get the hell out of here." Bob can't do
that. He has to ask all the questions and get all the answers. Until
he does that, he isn't satisfied.
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AL MCGUIRE PUNCHED A PLAYER!
I think the player PUNCHED first!
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Clearly?
Knight's first 15 years at IU: 269-117 (.696), three Final Fours, two national titles, eight conference titles
Smith over those same years: 277-118 (.701), four Final Fours, one national title, 10 conference titles
(Note: I think my addition is right here, but please correct me if I'm wrong)
Hey I guess if you frame it the way you want you get the results you want. Knight was clearly the better coach from when he took over at IU through when they met head to head in 1981.
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He should not have done that.
Knight not only choked Neal Reid. He did it and then kicked him off the team so he transferred. After Reid’s college career was done, he came forward with the allegation. Knight denied it, only to have the video surface later.
Way different circumstance than Al. And yeah Al shouldn’t have done that.
They really aren’t comparable circumstances.
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T-Cubed had a flower pot tossed at his coconut, aina?
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I was a huge fan of Bobby Knight the coach in the 80's and early 90's. Loved his work in Blue Chips, too. His keeping Steve Alford at home is partially responsible for my marriage. (So, mixed blessing ;D) His later years soured me on him somewhat. He definitely belongs in the pantheon. I just think Dean was a smidgen better.
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A friend of a friend once said this...
So what your friend of a friend is saying that Bobby Knight was only joking when he choked Neil Reed, kicked him off the team and lied about it. And he was only joking when he physically confronted a student for having the audacity to address him as "Knight" instead of Mr. Knight. Bobby simply wasn't smiling during all that, but it was all in fun!
Look, I don't think anyone here is calling Knight "evil." I have heard numerous stories about the many, many good things he did, behind the scenes, for his players and former players. But he was physically, psychologically and/or emotionally abusive to 18-22 year olds. He went after moderators at NCAA tournaments and others who weren't associated with his program, people who were just doing their jobs.
And he was petty as hell. For years, he shut both Coach K and Alford out because he perceived they had "wronged" him - K merely for being a more successful coach. He only let them back in after they came to him hat in hand and apologized - as if they had any reason to apologize. Perhaps Neil Reed should have apologized for getting his neck in the way of Bobby's hands.
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I was a huge fan of Bobby Knight the coach in the 80's and early 90's. Loved his work in Blue Chips, too. His keeping Steve Alford at home is partially responsible for my marriage. (So, mixed blessing ;D) His later years soured me on him somewhat. He definitely belongs in the pantheon. I just think Dean was a smidgen better.
Fair assessment
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So what your friend of a friend is saying that Bobby Knight was only joking when he choked Neil Reed, kicked him off the team and lied about it. And he was only joking when he physically confronted a student for having the audacity to address him as "Knight" instead of Mr. Knight. Bobby simply wasn't smiling during all that, but it was all in fun!
Look, I don't think anyone here is calling Knight "evil." I have heard numerous stories about the many, many good things he did, behind the scenes, for his players and former players. But he was physically, psychologically and/or emotionally abusive to 18-22 year olds. He went after moderators at NCAA tournaments and others who weren't associated with his program, people who were just doing their jobs.
And he was petty as hell. For years, he shut both Coach K and Alford out because he perceived they had "wronged" him - K merely for being a more successful coach. He only let them back in after they came to him hat in hand and apologized - as if they had any reason to apologize. Perhaps Neil Reed should have apologized for getting his neck in the way of Bobby's hands.
yeah, but at least the friend noted bobby respected erin andrews as a sports reporter and didn't denigrate her femininity
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Knight not only choked Neal Reid. He did it and then kicked him off the team so he transferred. After Reid’s college career was done, he came forward with the allegation. Knight denied it, only to have the video surface later.
Way different circumstance than Al. And yeah Al shouldn’t have done that.
They really aren’t comparable circumstances.
I didn't compare the circumstances.
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Hey I guess if you frame it the way you want you get the results you want. Knight was clearly the better coach from when he took over at IU through when they met head to head in 1981.
I'm framing it using standard measures of success for a coach.
How are you framing it?
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yeah, but at least the friend noted bobby respected erin andrews as a sports reporter and didn't denigrate her femininity
2 out of 10
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So what your friend of a friend is saying that Bobby Knight was only joking when he choked Neil Reed, kicked him off the team and lied about it. And he was only joking when he physically confronted a student for having the audacity to address him as "Knight" instead of Mr. Knight. Bobby simply wasn't smiling during all that, but it was all in fun!
That friend of a friend that is referred to is actually Al...FWIW.
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That friend of a friend that is referred to is actually Al...FWIW.
Somebody gets it.
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Somebody gets it.
Just because Al defended Bobby and was friends with him gives Knight’s boorish behavior a pass
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Just because Al defended Bobby and was friends with him gives Knight’s boorish behavior a pass
For context...Al wrote a glowing foreword to John Feinstein's A Season on the Brink.
As for me...I would have fired Knight after the Connie Chung episode. That was indefensible.
Neil Reed + 'pulling a Dabo' on a student in a hallway are actions that seemingly every coach has tucked away in their past. Knight's action came to the forefront bc he wore his emotions on his sleeve. Again the Connie Chung stuff is terrible and deserves losing everything, after that I think it's funny that people cite him yelling at a 20 year old man who called him Knight as big evidence of boorish behavior.
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For context...Al wrote a glowing foreword to John Feinstein's A Season on the Brink.
As for me...I would have fired Knight after the Connie Chung episode. That was indefensible.
Neil Reed + 'pulling a Dabo' on a student in a hallway are actions that seemingly every coach has tucked away in their past. Knight's action came to the forefront bc he wore his emotions on his sleeve. Again the Connie Chung stuff is terrible and deserves losing everything, after that I think it's funny that people cite him yelling at a 20 year old man who called him Knight as big evidence of boorish behavior.
Wasn’t the Connie Chung thing a matter of using a wrong analogy? I think he realized when he said it, that was a terribly stupid example of what he was trying to say? I could be remembering that wrong. Of course, not sure why you think of that analogy
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Brother and Sister Scoopers:
He was a basketball coach, for heaven's sake. He wasn't a religious or political leader. He wasn't someone who demanded your adoration. Nor was he perfect. No one is!!!!
Look, he did some really dumb things. But when Al died, nobody brought up the fist fight he had with Dave Delsman. Or the near altercation he had with Bernard Toone in 1977 (though it was brought up when BT died). Instead, they focused on Al as a personality and what he meant to the people around him.
I'd really be curious what his graduated players think of him. Did they get degrees? I'm kinda betting they did. Do the guys that did four years respect him?
That would be an interesting story, but it would require the kind of work that most reporters are loathe to put in. And, it might break the ogre narrative about Knight. Which would ruin the narrative most reporters have for Coach Knight. It's just easier to define a man by chair tossing and a choke-hold.
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Wasn’t the Connie Chung thing a matter of using a wrong analogy? I think he realized when he said it, that was a terribly stupid example of what he was trying to say? I could be remembering that wrong. Of course, not sure why you think of that analogy
This is a fireable offense. It's terrible:
NBC's Connie Chung interviewed Knight in 1988 for a piece about handling stress. At one point, Knight said: "I think that if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it."
He continued: "That's just an old term that you're going to use. The plane's going down, so you have no control over it. I'm not talking about the act of rape. Don't misinterpret me. But what I'm talking about is something happens to you, so you have to handle it − now."
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As usual, roQQet, you don't know what you're talking about.
Now go fire another female employee for supporting cancer victims and keep worshipping a 91-felony criminal defendant who bragged about sexually assaulting women.
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dgies
You are 100% correct. That said, you will never change the minds of people that think differently on the topic.
I look at Bobby, or others, similar to how I judge people around me. My parents would be both over 100 if still alive and I thought they are two of the best people I have ever met, actually the best, but they had moments in life that were not perfect. There actions spoke loudly to me and often contradicted words that were spoken. I have no idea what all of their flaws were, but I know they were not saints. I also know they were people that were respected and loved.
I am always surprised by people that judge others over their flaws and make major judgements. It makes think those people never make mistakes or are delusional.
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Goose:
My parents, whom I admired as well as loved, weren't "perfect," either. But they didn't choke anyone, didn't kick anyone, didn't emotionally abuse anyone, etc.
My best coaches and mentors could be tough, but they never crossed the line. I did have one boss who was a bully and an a-hole, and everybody hated working for him; he got a new position, and it was like the entire department let loose a collective sigh of relief. His replacement could be tough, too, but she was not one who would be cruel for the sake of cruelty as her predecessor was.
dg:
There have been many, many, many comprehensive looks at Knight's time as a coach. John Feinstein wrote a best-selling book after spending an entire season with him and his program, and there have been plenty of others.
From accounts I have seen, most of Knight's players have spoken very highly of him, and felt they benefited from having played for him. Some of those who didn't see eye to eye with him eventually came around, especially after Knight grew fragile in the later years of his life.
I've already mentioned that Knight resented K and Alford but that fences eventually were mended after K and Alford apologized (though they had done nothing wrong).
Larry Bird famously dropped out of Indiana because he was homesick, but he also didn't respond to Knight, who felt Bird was weak. Years and years later, Knight actually admitted he handled the Bird situation poorly - calling it "one of my biggest mistakes."
Again, Knight did a lot of charitable things, many out of the public eye. He was fiercely loyal to those who were loyal to him. I think I've read that his teams had a high graduation rate. His program didn't cheat. He coached amazing basketball for decades. As I think Wags said, his one Sweet 16 season at Texas Tech was a borderline miracle.
But even though he didn't suddenly become bad at coaching basketball, the game passed him by because 18-year-olds stopped being willing to be treated like dirt just so they could be coached by the great Bobby Knight.
As is the case with most subjects discussed on Scoop, this isn't a black-and-white thing. There is nuance. Saying one wouldn't want one's kid to play for Bobby Knight, as a few have done, isn't the same as calling him evil.
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Complicated is euphemistic way of calling a dead person an a-hole.
I don't think he deserves the euphemism treatment. Tell it like it is. Bob Knight was not one to mince words and we all know what he said about his critics. People in general are complicated as we all have our proud and not so proud moments, but Knight's behavior goes way beyond an occasional lack in judgment. Personally I don't care for people like Bob Knight.
Knight was a basketball coach, but minimizing his conduct by defending him as 'just a coach' doesn't give him a pass for the terrible stuff he did, year, after year, after year. He was known for having a clean program, and for graduating his players, and that's great. At what cost though? His mindset was toxic, that's how he chose to lead others and conduct himself his entire life, and that's how I'll remember him. That was the way he knew how to run a program, which is a shame because so much of it was unnecessarily abusive to those around him.
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dgies
You are 100% correct. That said, you will never change the minds of people that think differently on the topic.
I look at Bobby, or others, similar to how I judge people around me. My parents would be both over 100 if still alive and I thought they are two of the best people I have ever met, actually the best, but they had moments in life that were not perfect. There actions spoke loudly to me and often contradicted words that were spoken. I have no idea what all of their flaws were, but I know they were not saints. I also know they were people that were respected and loved.
I am always surprised by people that judge others over their flaws and make major judgements. It makes think those people never make mistakes or are delusional.
Well said. I introduced the Al piece because he a) had a fondness for Knight (bc unlike us, he knew him) and b) Al had his own warts but as MU fans we only see the seashells and balloons, we over look the cracked sidewalks. I truely wonder how unique the Neil Reed situation was to a certain generation of teams.
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Well said. I introduced the Al piece because he a) had a fondness for Knight (bc unlike us, he knew him) and b) Al had his own warts but as MU fans we only see the seashells and balloons, we over look the cracked sidewalks. I truely wonder how unique the Neil Reed situation was to a certain generation of teams.
Unique? There’s literally a whole section of his biography dedicated to abusive incidents in his career. Anyone telling the story of Bobby Knight does a disservice to his legacy without including those stories. He did those things and could do those things because he won a lot of basketball games because he was a good coach.
And quite frankly, I highly doubt Robert Montgomery Knight could give a flying rip if that’s part of his legacy.
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You can be a great basketball coach who greatly helps young adults mature and become better basketball players without being mentally and physically abusive. It wasn't some one off, judging a guy by his single worst act. It's who he was, from start to finish.
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The Lens
That is my gripe. Al had a LOT of warts, but his good outweighed the warts. I can look at the big picture of Al because I am older, know more and understand how the parts made up the whole with Al. I have zero interest in discussing Al's warts but he had quite a few.
I have told my kids many times that you can judge a man how his peers reflect on his life and react to their death. My guess, there are far more people on the pro Bobby side of the aisle. I know that for some people you only need one person the negative side of the aisle.
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dgies
You are 100% correct. That said, you will never change the minds of people that think differently on the topic.
I look at Bobby, or others, similar to how I judge people around me. My parents would be both over 100 if still alive and I thought they are two of the best people I have ever met, actually the best, but they had moments in life that were not perfect. There actions spoke loudly to me and often contradicted words that were spoken. I have no idea what all of their flaws were, but I know they were not saints. I also know they were people that were respected and loved.
I am always surprised by people that judge others over their flaws and make major judgements. It makes think those people never make mistakes or are delusional.
Goose
People love nothing better than to sit in judgement of others - particularly dead people they don’t know. They add up/interpret the bad stuff they’ve heard/read and the good stuff they’ve heard/read, add some extraneous or arbitrary stuff (like the dead guy’s and their own politics) and - Voila! They’ve figured out the worth of a life.
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Goose
People love nothing better than to sit in judgement of others - particularly dead people they don’t know. They add up/interpret the bad stuff they’ve heard/read and the good stuff they’ve heard/read, add some extraneous or arbitrary stuff (like the dead guy’s and their own politics) and - Voila! They’ve figured out the worth of a life.
This post is not at all judgemental.
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Lenny
It always seems to be the same cast of characters on here. I wonder if any of them include a bias against Bobby because of his Trump support.
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Lenny
It always seems to be the same cast of characters on here. I wonder if any of them include a bias against Bobby because of his Trump support.
Stop judging people, Goose.
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Guys-
The bad stuff about Bobby Knight isn’t second-hand gossip. It’s facts and part of his life and legacy. He was an abusive a-hole.
He was also a great basketball coach who has a cavalcade of players and coaches who loved him like family and credit him with being a positive influence in their lives and making them better people. That’s awesome and important in telling his story.
All of these things are his legacy. If you’re talking about Bobby Knight and aren’t talking about the abuse, I don’t know what to tell you. He lost the Indiana job because he couldn’t keep his hands off a freaking student who wasn’t even a player. Those are the facts.
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This post is not at all judgemental.
I didn’t know you were dead - but since you are, I apologize.
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I didn’t know you were dead - but since you are, I apologize.
When you wrote "People love nothing better than to sit in judgement of others .." you were referring to dead people?
Huh.
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Guys-
The bad stuff about Bobby Knight isn’t second-hand gossip. It’s facts and part of his life and legacy. He was an abusive a-hole.
He was also a great basketball coach who has a cavalcade of players and coaches who loved him like family and credit him with being a positive influence in their lives and making them better people. That’s awesome and important in telling his story.
All of these things are his legacy. If you’re talking about Bobby Knight and aren’t talking about the abuse, I don’t know what to tell you. He lost the Indiana job because he couldn’t keep his hands off a freaking student who wasn’t even a player. Those are the facts.
Rico
I have nothing against a discussion of facts about any dead guy that are on the record. He choked a player (bad), he yelled at a student (bad), he had a temper (bad). Whether those two incidents, the temper, and other failings mean he should have “Here lies an abusive a-hole” engraved on his tombstone is a judgement that very few of (for example) his ex players would share. That won’t stop a lot of folks who never knew him, but I don’t think they’re qualified to make that judgement
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Rico
I have nothing against a discussion of facts about any dead guy that are on the record. He choked a player (bad), he yelled at a student (bad), he had a temper (bad). Whether those two incidents, the temper, and other failings mean he should have “Here lies an abusive a-hole” engraved on his tombstone is a judgement that very few of (for example) his ex players would share. That won’t stop a lot of folks who never knew him, but I don’t think they’re qualified to make that judgement
Other than Tower saying he wouldn’t send his kids to play for him and Pak calling him an a-hole, which he was and I’m willing to bet Bobby Knight would call himself an a-hole, what judgements have been passed here? And Tower praised his coaching!
Muhoosier260 has been the most aggressive in severly croticizing him. One person.
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Had no idea Bob Knight supported Donald Trump. I don't really walk around wondering, researching, or trying to determine peoples' political beliefs. And I don't really find people to be good or bad people based on their political views. I know plenty of great people who lean right, and plenty of people who I don't care for at all that lean left.
It could be Barack Obama himself and if it comes out that he choked his staffers, verbally abused his staffers, etc. and he couldn't prevent himself from doing those things even when he's on the hot seat because of previous similar behavior, I'd think he was an a-hole no matter how many people who worked closely with him thought incredibly highly of him.
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Other than Tower saying he wouldn’t send his kids to play for him and Pak calling him an a-hole, which he was and I’m willing to bet Bobby Knight would call himself an a-hole, what judgements have been passed here? And Tower praised his coaching!
Muhoosier260 has been the most aggressive in severly croticizing him. One person.
Pretty sure I didn't call him an a-hole, fwiw.
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When you wrote "People love nothing better than to sit in judgement of others .." you were referring to dead people?
Huh.
In fairness, he did not write "Some people" and I assume he is a person.
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Was also unaware Knight supported Trump. As to my kid playing for Knight, my kid had a verbally abusive travel baseball coach. Two kids quit the team with anxiety issues. Mine swore to never play travel baseball again. Talked him out of quitting the game completely and he has had two successful high school seasons. I found out the coach was kicked out of the travel organization after my son walked away because this behavior was a habit.
My son knows he does not respond to coaching by verbal abuse. Ergo, I would not let him play for coach Knight. Nor would he want to.
But, I have never said and never will say Knight couldn't coach.
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Not that I care, but if you google Bobby Knight there are a ton of videos with him stumping for Trump. For some reason I thought there were multiple posts regarding Bobby stumping for Trump in the last campaign season.
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Was also unaware Knight supported Trump. As to my kid playing for Knight, my kid had a verbally abusive travel baseball coach. Two kids quit the team with anxiety issues. Mine swore to never play travel baseball again. Talked him out of quitting the game completely and he has had two successful high school seasons. I found out the coach was kicked out of the travel organization after my son walked away because this behavior was a habit.
My son knows he does not respond to coaching by verbal abuse. Ergo, I would not let him play for coach Knight. Nor would he want to.
That's why we're a soft country.
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Not that I care, but if you google Bobby Knight there are a ton of videos with him stumping for Trump. For some reason I thought there were multiple posts regarding Bobby stumping for Trump in the last campaign season.
I vaguely recall him stumping for Trump, but I thought that would have been 2016. By 2020, Bobby was already in failing health. That’s when he went back to IU and didn’t look that good
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As usual, roQQet, you don't know what you're talking about.
Now go fire another female employee for supporting cancer victims and keep worshipping a 91-felony criminal defendant who bragged about sexually assaulting women.
never fired her for "supporting cancer victims" and my God, i've never admitted to worshiping hunter biden...no no NO NO NO
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Rocket
82 loves playing up to the the crowd. He has shown his true colors multiple times over the years and his schtick is comical.
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This is a great listen…
I had Chad Hartman on yesterday live with his daily show on WCCO. Chad, because of his dad’s close, personal relationship with Bobby, knew him for several decades.
This is a great, 30 minute cut from Chad’s show yesterday on his first hand experiences with Bobby. Definitely worth a listen.
https://www.audacy.com/podcast/chad-hartman-5788a/episodes/randy-wittman-and-a-full-hour-on-the-life-and-legacy-of-bobby-knight-f68a4?action=AUTOPLAY_FULL&actionContentId=201-fd5be275-ff8b-4c2e-8c79-52cc1d3a0274
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When you wrote "People love nothing better than to sit in judgement of others .." you were referring to dead people?
Huh.
You mean when I wrote “people love nothing better than to sit in judgement of others - PARTICULARLY DEAD PEOPLE THEY DON’T KNOW”? Yes. I was referring to dead people, in this particular case Bob Knight. You knew that, of course, but couldn’t resist the urge to to be dishonest by omission.
It seems to me that most of the people who knew him loved him in spite of his obvious failings, while most of the people who didn’t know him hated him for those same failings.
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Lenny
It seems to me that Mopes are the group that have the biggest dislike for Knight. Not surprised.
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You mean when I wrote “people love nothing better than to sit in judgement of others - PARTICULARLY DEAD PEOPLE THEY DON’T KNOW”? Yes. I was referring to dead people, in this particular case Bob Knight. You knew that, of course, but couldn’t resist the urge to to be dishonest by omission.
It seems to me that most of the people who knew him loved him in spite of his obvious failings, while most of the people who didn’t know him hated him for those same failings.
It shouldn't be this hard, Lenny. You are, no doubt, an intelligent person. Too intelligent to miss the obvious.
In your rant about people harshly judging a guy they didn't know, you harshly judged a bunch of people you don't know.
Get it now? I was pointing out the pretty obvious irony of your post.
It should be noted, by the way, I have said nothing negative about Bobby Knight in this thread, other than my belief that Dean Smith was better. (And he was).
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Guys-
The bad stuff about Bobby Knight isn’t second-hand gossip. It’s facts and part of his life and legacy. He was an abusive a-hole.
He was also a great basketball coach who has a cavalcade of players and coaches who loved him like family and credit him with being a positive influence in their lives and making them better people. That’s awesome and important in telling his story.
All of these things are his legacy. If you’re talking about Bobby Knight and aren’t talking about the abuse, I don’t know what to tell you. He lost the Indiana job because he couldn’t keep his hands off a freaking student who wasn’t even a player. Those are the facts.
I think thats all fair. I think he was a person who had a lot of light...and also a whole heck of a lot of dark. But that doesn't make him an indefensible a**hole...nor does it make him some unfairly attacked victim, just a complicated person who was also one of the best to ever do what he did.
I only have an issue with these sort of depictions when people need it to be all or nothing. Glossing over his black eyes is delusional Pollyanna Hoosier nonsense, but needing to caveat anything he did with "but he was an absolutely terrible person" is the stupid modern need to label someone in absolutes, especially since 99% of the people who do so have never had a single in person interaction with the person, or if so, it was incredibly fleeting.
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It shouldn't be this hard, Lenny. You are, no doubt, an intelligent person. Too intelligent to miss the obvious.
In your rant about people harshly judging a guy they didn't know, you harshly judged a bunch of people you don't know.
Get it now? I was pointing out the pretty obvious irony of your post.
It should be noted, by the way, I have said nothing negative about Bobby Knight in this thread, other than my belief that Dean Smith was better. (And he was).
Rant? A tad judgmental in your characterization, imo.
You are also an intelligent person, and as one it shouldn’t be difficult for you to understand. I don’t have a problem with people making judgements about the particular actions/behavior of another. People do wrong things, including but not limited to choking players, yelling at students or judging a dead person’s life that they know little about - all the time. Acknowledging that this is poor behavior is common sense. Taking these kinds of snapshots and concluding that a man’s life wasn’t worthwhile because of them is where my disagreement lies.
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I think thats all fair. I think he was a person who had a lot of light...and also a whole heck of a lot of dark. But that doesn't make him an indefensible a**hole...nor does it make him some unfairly attacked victim, just a complicated person who was also one of the best to ever do what he did.
I only have an issue with these sort of depictions when people need it to be all or nothing. Glossing over his black eyes is delusional Pollyanna Hoosier nonsense, but needing to caveat anything he did with "but he was an absolutely terrible person" is the stupid modern need to label someone in absolutes, especially since 99% of the people who do so have never had a single in person interaction with the person, or if so, it was incredibly fleeting.
With Bobby Knight, I get the dislike. I didn’t like Indiana or him. I came around after that game in ‘98 when Teddy Valentine ran him on senior night. And when Indiana fired him, at the time, I thought it was a raw deal (It wasn’t. He brought it on and I believe he was itching for a fight with the school by that point). People often hate winners when it ain’t their team winning. It’s part of fan behavior.
I enjoyed his success at Texas Tech while Indiana floundered and found him enjoyable as a color guy most nights.
I do find it odd that most people here can point both things out, other than muhoosier, and somehow people are disliking him in pointing out his full biography. Controversial lives have controversial legacies. Being a good coach and winning a lot of games doesn’t absolve the abusive behavior towards people.
Anyway, I posted a link on page one of this topic, an article by Frank DeFord on Knight. It’s pretty incredible writing and delves into Knight the person quite well. I’d also recommend Charles Pierce’s piece at Defector about Bobby Knight.
I’d finish by saying, we give college coaches pedestals they don’t deserve based on winning games. Players speak highly of coaches that don’t win games and don’t abuse players but we dismiss them because of won-loss records. When you read the obits about Knight, the one thing that should stand out is, beyond winning, he actually believed in the whole student-athlete thing and he refused a salary larger than what the highest paid professor got. His defenders will point to that, his critics will dismiss that. Ultimately, most don’t care because it always comes down to the winning.
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Rant? A tad judgmental in your characterization, imo.
You are also an intelligent person, and as one it shouldn’t be difficult for you to understand. I don’t have a problem with people making judgements about the particular actions/behavior of another. People do wrong things, including but not limited to choking players, yelling at students or judging a dead person’s life that they know little about - all the time. Acknowledging that this is poor behavior is common sense. Taking these kinds of snapshots and concluding that a man’s life wasn’t worthwhile because of them is where my disagreement lies.
Who has said on this message board his life wasn’t worthwhile? I think you’re grasping for straws here.
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Rocket
82 loves playing up to the the crowd. He has shown his true colors multiple times over the years and his schtick is comical.
Goose: I learn a lot from your basketball analysis but your politics suck.
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It should be noted, by the way, I have said nothing negative about Bobby Knight in this thread, other than my belief that Dean Smith was better. (And he was).
Smith was a liberal and Knight was a Know Nothing. On the other hand didn't the Roy Williams scandal touch on Smith and didn't Knight run a clean program? Its complicated.
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I'd really be curious what his graduated players think of him. Did they get degrees?
"Knight's coaching also included a firm emphasis on academics. All but four of his four-year players completed their degrees, or nearly 98 percent. Nearly 80 percent of his players graduated; this figure was much higher than the national average of 42 percent for Division 1 schools.[120]"
Wiki
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Taking these kinds of snapshots and concluding that a man’s life wasn’t worthwhile because of them is where my disagreement lies.
C'mon, Lenny. Not a single Scooper said Knight's "life wasn't worthwhile." You can make your point - and you do regularly make solid points - without wild exaggerations.
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Actually, with one exception, everyone has been pretty fair and balanced when discussing the totality of the man. Why so angry?
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Actually, with one exception, everyone has been pretty fair and balanced when discussing the totality of the man. Why so angry?
Reading comprehension is lacking? Inherent bias? Itching for another culture war thread? Sad over a world that no longer exists?
Any of those work
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That accomplishes nothing. Lenny, why so angry?
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Who has said on this message board his life wasn’t worthwhile? I think you’re grasping for straws here.
I think you’ve been very fair. Some others, less so.
Many have referred to him as “complicated”. Some of his best qualities (principled, loyal, intense, competitive) could also turn into negatives (rigid, uncompromising, grudge holding, even abusive). Others (generosity, for example)we’re just what they were.
He was driven to seek perfection and basically achieved it at an early age - maybe in the long run that made his life and the lives of those around him more difficult.
I guess it depends what you mean by complicated. I think everyone’s life is complicated. It’s called being human. And the greater one’s accomplishments, the larger the target on one’s back. By my definition (and yours, I believe) complicated describes Bob Knight’s life well. But if Pakuni is right and complicated is nothing more than a euphemism for being an a-hole, I think it’s unfair.
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I think you’ve been very fair. Some others, less so.
Many have referred to him as “complicated”. Some of his best qualities (principled, loyal, intense, competitive) could also turn into negatives (rigid, uncompromising, grudge holding, even abusive). Others (generosity, for example)we’re just what they were.
He was driven to seek perfection and basically achieved it at an early age - maybe in the long run that made his life and the lives of those around him more difficult.
I guess it depends what you mean by complicated. I think everyone’s life is complicated. It’s called being human. And the greater one’s accomplishments, the larger the target on one’s back. By my definition (and yours, I believe) complicated describes Bob Knight’s life well. But if Pakuni is right and complicated is nothing more than a euphemism for being an a-hole, I think it’s unfair.
Lenny,
Bob Knight had a long and thoroughly documented history of bullying and abusive behavior toward his players and others around him. That's not his entire legacy, and nobody here has suggested as much, but it is a part of his legacy.
If you want to rationalize and excuse it as typical human failings, that's OK. Seriously. You're free to view him and his legacy however you choose.
But Bob Knight wasn't some martyr with a target on his back because he had success. He was who he was, good and bad. No need to whitewash his history.
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Actually, with one exception, everyone has been pretty fair and balanced when discussing the totality of the man. Why so angry?
I smile when you go down that faux “why are you so angry” road. Bemused is more accurate.
If giving equal weight to a snapshot of him yelling at a student and a graduation rate that should embarrass other Hall of Fame coaches is fair and balanced, then yeah.
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All have been discussed. All are part of his legacy. Why so bemused?
So, my wife, the Hoosier. Who became a basketball fan because of Steve Alford's perfect hair. Who banishes me to the small TV in the basement when IU and MU are playing at the same time. Not mourning him at all. Understands why there will be a patch on the IU uniforms this season, but wishes they wouldn't because of what he became later in his career.
The man generated a broad spectrum of opinions. May he rest in peace.
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I smile when you go down that faux “why are you so angry” road. Bemused is more accurate.
If giving equal weight to a snapshot of him yelling at a student and a graduation rate that should embarrass other Hall of Fame coaches is fair and balanced, then yeah.
He didn’t just yell at a student. He grabbed a student. He choked a player. That is a fair and balanced snapshot in his obit along with the graduation rates and wins w
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The Indianapolis Star did a huge package of articles after Knight died, focusing on a variety of topics, both "good" and "bad." I had heard most of them, but here's one I either missed or didn't remember:
Knight joined the "Dan Patrick Show" in 2017 to promote a documentary on IU's undefeated 1975-76 team, and Patrick asked Knight about possibly returning to campus.
Knight said that, while he appreciates Hoosiers fans, he had no use for the school's administration, and wouldn't go back.
Then came this exchange.
Patrick: "Aren't those people all out of there, coach?"
Knight: "I hope they're all dead."
Patrick: "Some of them are ..."
Knight: "Well, I hope the rest of them go."
I remember how outraged some here were when a few Scoopers said they weren't sad at all that Rush Limbaugh had died.
Well, here's Bobby Knight publicly wishing death on those he didn't like in the Indiana University administration. Wow.
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The Indianapolis Star did a huge package of articles after Knight died, focusing on a variety of topics, both "good" and "bad." I had heard most of them, but here's one I either missed or didn't remember:
Knight joined the "Dan Patrick Show" in 2017 to promote a documentary on IU's undefeated 1975-76 team, and Patrick asked Knight about possibly returning to campus.
Knight said that, while he appreciates Hoosiers fans, he had no use for the school's administration, and wouldn't go back.
Then came this exchange.
Patrick: "Aren't those people all out of there, coach?"
Knight: "I hope they're all dead."
Patrick: "Some of them are ..."
Knight: "Well, I hope the rest of them go."
I remember how outraged some here were when a few Scoopers said they weren't sad at all that Rush Limbaugh had died.
Well, here's Bobby Knight publicly wishing death on those he didn't like in the Indiana University administration. Wow.
That’s part of why I say Bobby Knight would not care one bit what people said about him after he died.