7.09%? I guess I won't be moving anytime soon. I'm no expert....how is this sustainable? Can we call this a crisis?
That is what I paid when I bought my house 30 years ago. Thought it was a huge win when, 7 years later, I refinanced to a 15 year note and got my interest rate down to 5.25%. My parents paid 9% when they bought the house I spent my teen years in. It will sort itself out.
(https://res.cloudinary.com/moneygeek/image/upload/c_scale,q_auto:eco,f_auto,fl_lossy,w_780/v1660151650/fig1_30_year_fixed_rate_mortgage_average_in_the_united_states_e110a83e6c.png)
Thank you, Pakuni.
Quote from: MuggsyB on August 18, 2023, 09:02:47 AM
7.09%? I guess I won't be moving anytime soon. I'm no expert....how is this sustainable? Can we call this a crisis?
I paid 12.75 percent interest on my first home in 1984. And, I thought I got a bargain!
We're too addicted to low interest rates. And, you're right, housing inventory will be bleak for a couple of years.
Not a crisis. But love the hyperbole (again).
I paid 13.5% when I bought my house. Re-financed twice.
Costs go up and costs come down. Always have and always will.
Median home prices are extremely high as are rents.
Quote from: MuggsyB on August 18, 2023, 09:31:59 AM
Median home proces are extremely high as are rents.
When told that rates are not a crisis, I guess this is the next logical area to move to.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on August 18, 2023, 09:51:01 AM
When told that rates are not a crisis, I guess this is the next logical area to move to.
So you're saying this isn't a problem at all?
Quote from: MuggsyB on August 18, 2023, 10:03:32 AM
So you're saying this isn't a problem at all?
Historically it hasn't been a problem. Why would it be a problem this time?
Quote from: MuggsyB on August 18, 2023, 10:03:32 AM
So you're saying this isn't a problem at all?
Maybe but seriously everything isn't a crisis.
These are all outcomes of (global) policy decisions beginning in early 2020, massive shifts in consumer spending/demand during the pandemic and significant supply side shocks.
It's going to take a while to readjust and we are in the middle of it.
Quote from: MuggsyB on August 18, 2023, 10:03:32 AM
So you're saying this isn't a problem at all?
Depends. I am a homeowner who is sitting in a very rapidly appreciating asset that I was able to refinance at ~3%. I am in great shape.
For a first time homebuyer in the market now, not great.
For my kids, oldest of whom is probably still 8-10 years from being in a position to buy a home, it's a big fat "Who knows?"
The price of housing is a lot more of a problem than mortgage rates.
Monthly property tax payments are still higher than mortgage payments.
Housing is approaching crisis levels.
There's zero political will to solve the issue
We bought our house in 1990 with $180,000 mortgage at 11.25% 7/23 ARM.
Refinanced 2 x in the 90's, again in 2005 including a construction loan for an addition that cost more than the original house (ughh), and last time in 2011.
Paid off in 2014. Still live in the house.
These things go in cycles- we've been with extremely low rates for so long that the youngsters have no memory of anything else. When my parents had to move for my dad's job in 1979, their rate was over 12%- and rates increased over the next few years. Hell, my law school student loan rate was 12% in the late 80's.
And we are aggressive on the property tax appeals, which has worked. Just got another reduction, this time on my own without hiring one of Madigan's tax appeal lawyer Cronies.
Also, was was talking to one of my junior partners earlier this week - she lives in Kenilworth, maybe the highest property tax rate in IL (no commercial district, and funds its own elementary school district with a population of only 2,450): she's paying $60,000 (bought house for $1.6 million on 2020). More than 4x what we pay - granted, her house is worth more than 2 x ours - but $60,000! JFC.
Quote from: Pakuni on August 18, 2023, 09:26:21 AM
(https://res.cloudinary.com/moneygeek/image/upload/c_scale,q_auto:eco,f_auto,fl_lossy,w_780/v1660151650/fig1_30_year_fixed_rate_mortgage_average_in_the_united_states_e110a83e6c.png)
This
Quote from: tower912 on August 18, 2023, 09:04:06 AM
That is what I paid when I bought my house 30 years ago. Thought it was a huge win when, 7 years later, I refinanced to a 15 year note and got my interest rate down to 5.25%. My parents paid 9% when they bought the house I spent my teen years in. It will sort itself out.
This.
There needs to be a lot more context in all of this discussion.
You guys had high interest rates when you bought in the 80s and 90s, but the houses were far cheaper. Approaching 7% interest rates on a 300k house... it becomes a lot more difficult to pay than 7% on your 100k houses. Especially since real wages haven't risen at the same rate to help afford those houses.
There is a ton of nuance to these discussions,
Quote from: Hards Alumni on August 18, 2023, 01:09:59 PM
There needs to be a lot more context in all of this discussion.
You guys had high interest rates when you bought in the 80s and 90s, but the houses were far cheaper. Approaching 7% interest rates on a 300k house... it becomes a lot more difficult to pay than 7% on your 100k houses. Especially since real wages haven't risen at the same rate to help afford those houses.
There is a ton of nuance to these discussions,
Excellent point Hards. The median home price. along with property taxes, combined with mortgage rates, are somewhat concerning imo.
Hards:
What's the best restaurant in Madison now?
Fairchild? I may have to go there the 2nd week of Sept.
How's Harvey House?
Quote from: MuggsyB on August 18, 2023, 10:03:32 AM
So you're saying this isn't a problem at all?
Don't worry, there will be another housing bubble in the next 10 years where housing prices will collapse - and you'll state "Housing prices are in crisis".
Quote from: MuggsyB on August 18, 2023, 01:17:17 PM
Hards:
What's the best restaurant in Madison now?
Fairchild? I may have to go there the 2nd week of Sept.
How's Harvey House?
Great questions. I have not been to HH, but my friends have, and the consensus is that while it is good... it is overrated and pricey. They like to push their martinis.
I have not been to Fairchild, but have heard great things, and of course they're a James Beard winner.
As is Ahan... which I have not been to, but have heard really great things. Also a James Beard winner.
Personally, I am a big fan of Heritage Tavern and Mint Mark. Both are great options, with MM being away from the square on the near East side.
If you're interested in a cocktail check out the Robin Room on Johnson St before dinner. Alternatively, you can head over to Prost! for a couple of German beers and a homemade pretzel. If neither of those are of interest, and the weather is cooperating, there is a nice beer garden at Olbrich Park. It is dog friendly, next to the water, and very social.
If absolutely none of these interest you, Pig in a Fur Coat never disappoints.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on August 18, 2023, 01:09:59 PM
There needs to be a lot more context in all of this discussion.
You guys had high interest rates when you bought in the 80s and 90s, but the houses were far cheaper. Approaching 7% interest rates on a 300k house... it becomes a lot more difficult to pay than 7% on your 100k houses. Especially since real wages haven't risen at the same rate to help afford those houses.
There is a ton of nuance to these discussions,
Exactly.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on August 18, 2023, 11:14:33 AM
Monthly property tax payments are still higher than mortgage payments.
Welcome to Illinois, Doc!
Mr. Buffett is now buying homebuilders. Lennar, D.R. Horton, and NVR have all been added to his portfolio over the past week or so. Maybe he knows there is no interest rate or housing crisis, but an opportunity to invest in America (simple supply and demand - not enough homes, then more will built).
3.0% in 2020. Got incredibly lucky.
When the boomers who are also snowbirds start dying in bulk, the housing market will make a dramatic shift.
Quote from: LloydsLegs on August 18, 2023, 11:48:08 AM
We bought our house in 1990 with $180,000 mortgage at 11.25% 7/23 ARM.
Refinanced 2 x in the 90's, again in 2005 including a construction loan for an addition that cost more than the original house (ughh), and last time in 2011.
Paid off in 2014. Still live in the house.
These things go in cycles- we've been with extremely low rates for so long that the youngsters have no memory of anything else. When my parents had to move for my dad's job in 1979, their rate was over 12%- and rates increased over the next few years. Hell, my law school student loan rate was 12% in the late 80's.
And we are aggressive on the property tax appeals, which has worked. Just got another reduction, this time on my own without hiring one of Madigan's tax appeal lawyer Cronies.
Also, was was talking to one of my junior partners earlier this week - she lives in Kenilworth, maybe the highest property tax rate in IL (no commercial district, and funds its own elementary school district with a population of only 2,450): she's paying $60,000 (bought house for $1.6 million on 2020). More than 4x what we pay - granted, her house is worth more than 2 x ours - but $60,000! JFC.
Those homes are taxed at the same rate as cannabis.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on August 18, 2023, 01:37:47 PM
Great questions. I have not been to HH, but my friends have, and the consensus is that while it is good... it is overrated and pricey. They like to push their martinis.
I have not been to Fairchild, but have heard great things, and of course they're a James Beard winner.
As is Ahan... which I have not been to, but have heard really great things. Also a James Beard winner.
Personally, I am a big fan of Heritage Tavern and Mint Mark. Both are great options, with MM being away from the square on the near East side.
If you're interested in a cocktail check out the Robin Room on Johnson St before dinner. Alternatively, you can head over to Prost! for a couple of German beers and a homemade pretzel. If neither of those are of interest, and the weather is cooperating, there is a nice beer garden at Olbrich Park. It is dog friendly, next to the water, and very social.
If absolutely none of these interest you, Pig in a Fur Coat never disappoints.
I've heard great things about Mint Mark. I know Chef Itaru a little bit and he's such a good dude. I really hope Fairchild has some staying power. I did have an excellent brunch at Heritage years ago and if I go to Maddy I will be across the street.....hmmmmm. Ahan I'm not familiar with at all. Is that over on Willy? I used to like that little Indonesian joint across from Sardine. What's the cocktail bar next to Pig in a Fur Coat or Grandpa's?
Quote from: tower912 on August 18, 2023, 02:10:44 PM
When the boomers who are also snowbirds start dying in bulk, the housing market will make a dramatic shift.
To buy my winter home now, or later, that is the question.
Where you are now, they barely have winter as it is.
Quote from: tower912 on August 18, 2023, 02:10:44 PM
When the boomers who are also snowbirds start dying in bulk, the housing market will make a dramatic shift.
Yeah but they already are. The problem is that there are lot of millenials who have had to postpone buying houses for years... and now Gen Zers are also in the market increasing demand significantly. Link that demand to a lack of new builds, and boomers living in their homes for longer with in home health care workers and general longer lives (well at least the wealthy... who are by and large homeowners.), and now prices are sky high... even for 'starter' homes. Now, add into all of that investors buying up property to use as permanent rental homes... we may be approaching the end of what most Americans consider home ownership in the next decade or two.
I don't know what the solution can be except more density in urban areas, coupled with better public transit. Not everyone needs or wants to live in the suburbs, but if the only place that is affordable is a 45 min drive from the city the US is going to have to keep expanding the roads... which increases traffic. There isn't a lot of big cities in the US anymore that have a suburban area that isn't developed. So where do we put the new homes that need to be built?
Quote from: MuggsyB on August 18, 2023, 02:26:07 PM
I've heard great things about Mint Mark. I know Chef Itaru a little bit and he's such a good dude. I really hope Fairchild has some staying power. I did have an excellent brunch at Heritage years ago and if I go to Maddy I will be across the street.....hmmmmm. Ahan I'm not familiar with at all. Is that over on Willy? I used to like that little Indonesian joint across from Sardine. What's the cocktail bar next to Pig in a Fur Coat or Grandpa's?
Ahan is on Winnebago, but is planning to move to a larger location... the old El Dorado Grill location on the West end of Willy st.
You're probably thinking of Bandung for the Indonesian place... and I can second that it is amazing. Smallish portions, but still great food.
The cocktail bar is Gib's. It looks like a home from the outside. Never been. Supposed to be inventive.
One last recommendation if you are a bread lover or a croissant lover... or sweets ... Batch bakehouse on Willy St. Right near Gibs. And if I'm mentioning bread I'm going to mention Madison Sourdough.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on August 18, 2023, 02:33:14 PM
Ahan is on Winnebago, but is planning to move to a larger location... the old El Dorado Grill location on the West end of Willy st.
You're probably thinking of Bandung for the Indonesian place... and I can second that it is amazing. Smallish portions, but still great food.
The cocktail bar is Gib's. It looks like a home from the outside. Never been. Supposed to be inventive.
One last recommendation if you are a bread lover or a croissant lover... or sweets ... Batch bakehouse on Willy St. Right near Gibs. And if I'm mentioning bread I'm going to mention Madison Sourdough.
Ya....Gibs. They used to be good at least when they opened 7-8 yrs ago. Bandung was great. They made me a special BBQ duck dish but I don't think they have it anymore. :(
I'll keep Batch in mind, ty. One of my friends has been pimping Ogden's Diner for breakfast but I will go out of my way and head to Sofra in Middleton. Thx again Hards.
Quote from: MuggsyB on August 18, 2023, 02:51:12 PM
Ya....Gibs. They used to be good at least when they opened 7-8 yrs ago. Bandung was great. They made me a special BBQ duck dish but I don't think they have it anymore. :(
I'll keep Batch in mind, ty. One of my friends has been pimping Ogden's Diner for breakfast but I will go out of my way and head to Sofra in Middleton. Thx again Hands.
Ogdens is good. It's small, but good. Good to see there is a fellow duck eater out there, Mugs.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on August 18, 2023, 02:29:58 PM
Yeah but they already are. The problem is that there are lot of millenials who have had to postpone buying houses for years... and now Gen Zers are also in the market increasing demand significantly. Link that demand to a lack of new builds, and boomers living in their homes for longer with in home health care workers and general longer lives (well at least the wealthy... who are by and large homeowners.), and now prices are sky high... even for 'starter' homes. Now, add into all of that investors buying up property to use as permanent rental homes... we may be approaching the end of what most Americans consider home ownership in the next decade or two.
I don't know what the solution can be except more density in urban areas, coupled with better public transit. Not everyone needs or wants to live in the suburbs, but if the only place that is affordable is a 45 min drive from the city the US is going to have to keep expanding the roads... which increases traffic. There isn't a lot of big cities in the US anymore that have a suburban area that isn't developed. So where do we put the new homes that need to be built?
What about disincentivizing investors from buying single family homes as rental properties?
Quote from: LloydsLegs on August 18, 2023, 11:48:08 AM
We bought our house in 1990 with $180,000 mortgage at 11.25% 7/23 ARM.
Refinanced 2 x in the 90's, again in 2005 including a construction loan for an addition that cost more than the original house (ughh), and last time in 2011.
Paid off in 2014. Still live in the house.
These things go in cycles- we've been with extremely low rates for so long that the youngsters have no memory of anything else. When my parents had to move for my dad's job in 1979, their rate was over 12%- and rates increased over the next few years. Hell, my law school student loan rate was 12% in the late 80's.
And we are aggressive on the property tax appeals, which has worked. Just got another reduction, this time on my own without hiring one of Madigan's tax appeal lawyer Cronies.
Also, was was talking to one of my junior partners earlier this week - she lives in Kenilworth, maybe the highest property tax rate in IL (no commercial district, and funds its own elementary school district with a population of only 2,450): she's paying $60,000 (bought house for $1.6 million on 2020). More than 4x what we pay - granted, her house is worth more than 2 x ours - but $60,000! JFC.
Brother Lloyd:
We lived in Lake County for 28 years. The assessor got so tired my appeals that she just wished I would go away. We were 13 for 13 in our time in Libertyville. The one time when they played games, didn't give me a time until the last minute and then split the difference, I went to the Property Tax Appeal Board and won there.
One year when we won big, they played an administrative nullification game the next and jumped my assessment up by more than 15 percent. Back we went and back we won -- again!
The problem is the definition of "Fair Cash Value" under Illinois law. Assessors play all kinds of games with things like multipliers and assessor "crap" that "we treated everyone the same." Baloney. One of the reasons we won is we tore their arguments apart and used their own statistics to show they weren't following the law.
Oh, and we did it all ourselves.
Florida will be much harder. Our property assessor is highly competent and our valuation is on the nose. If you disagree with them, they invite you to come in and talk and they'll work with you. It's ahrd to argue with someone who is right and knows their stuff!
Quote from: Hards Alumni on August 18, 2023, 02:54:40 PM
Ogdens is good. It's small, but good. Good to see there is a fellow duck eater out there, Mugs.
They aren't endangered but I do feel somewhat bad about it.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on August 18, 2023, 02:54:40 PM
Good to see there is a fellow duck eater out there, Mugs.
Teal implied?
Quote from: MuggsyB on August 18, 2023, 01:17:17 PM
Hards:
What's the best restaurant in Madison now?
Fairchild? I may have to go there the 2nd week of Sept.
How's Harvey House?
Muggs, would love to grab a beer with you when you are in town.
Quote from: SoCalEagle on August 18, 2023, 02:08:40 PM
30 year?
Yessir, will never be able to refinance or move for that matter for a long time, but I like my place so I'm happy it worked out the way it did.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on August 18, 2023, 04:19:10 PM
Yessir, will never be able to refinance or move for that matter for a long time, but I like my place so I'm happy it worked out the way it did.
How are those "tiny houses" anyway??
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on August 18, 2023, 03:15:35 PM
What about disincentivizing investors from buying single family homes as rental properties?
Such as? Not snarkily challenging, but genuinely curious. I'm usually against non-competitive restrictions, but can absolutely see how its become and will continue to be a properly.
And more importantly, I'm all for anything that can curb all stupid ass real estate influencers that clog my IG and Twitter feed acting like investing in SFH's is fool proof free money and easy with the BRRR method. And how buying a home to live in is foolish cause you should be using that money to get still MORE properties invest in and rent out.
Anyone else amused that Muggsy has derailed his own thread with multiple exchanges with Hards?
No more discussion about mortgage rates please. Just dining options in Madison. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Here's something to freak out about, muggsy. Adequate housing in CA and Fla, buy no affordable insurance.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on August 18, 2023, 03:15:35 PM
What about disincentivizing investors from buying single family homes as rental properties?
There has been talk of that here in the Charlotte area, which had been one of the hot spots for investors. Not sure where that stands on political level, but many HOAs in single-family subdivisions were starting to make rules against renting - which of course disincentivizes buyers.
However, I just read an article the other day that higher prices, combined with higher mortgage rates is serving as a deterrent without any rules being necessary. Some of the corporations that had been doing the most buying here have even become net sellers.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on August 18, 2023, 04:05:53 PM
Muggs, would love to grab a beer with you when you are in town.
Ziggy,.
Are you in Madison or Milwaukee?
Beer summit, aina?
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on August 18, 2023, 05:54:32 PM
Anyone else amused that Muggsy has derailed his own thread with multiple exchanges with Hards?
No more discussion about mortgage rates please. Just dining options in Madison. ;D ;D ;D ;D
I can get distracted Scoop Snoop unless it's watching MU hoops.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on August 18, 2023, 01:09:59 PM
There needs to be a lot more context in all of this discussion.
You guys had high interest rates when you bought in the 80s and 90s, but the houses were far cheaper. Approaching 7% interest rates on a 300k house... it becomes a lot more difficult to pay than 7% on your 100k houses. Especially since real wages haven't risen at the same rate to help afford those houses.
There is a ton of nuance to these discussions,
True
(https://images2.imgbox.com/db/bc/2uajMw0e_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/2uajMw0e)
As individuals have noted, the mortgage rates themselves are not the problem. It is the big picture for housing.
Interest rates are high, and housing prices are high. In some markets right now, individuals are essentially priced out of the market, and a lot of the sales (particularly in respect to more affordable housing) are all cash purchases by investment firms.
I know in my market, we would be hard pressed to find a home that we could afford, and would be competing against all cash offers.
I'd call that a housing crisis.
But the potential real crisis may be on the horizon. Some of these homes being purchased, are essentially being bought at a loss. What I mean, is there are individual investors (the ones Jwags references as IG investors) who are buying homes and renting them at a loss (losing money each month with the note higher than rent revenue). The plan, rent prices will soon go up, and the increase in home prices will leave them with a profit longer term.
That only works until prices drop and we suddenly have a ton of people underwater again and the system crashes on itself.
Quote from: forgetful on August 18, 2023, 08:33:26 PM
I know in my market, we would be hard pressed to find a hoe that we could afford,
Well now...That certainly is a problem.
Housing market is still solid, imo
Avg days on market for a listing - Inventory is moving quickly so it must be priced appropriately
(https://i.imgur.com/bP9Do4g.png)
Avg housing new starts - A leading indicator for residential RE, check out the housing crash 2008. Developers will not lay out cash when the market starts softening
(https://i.imgur.com/gHuJ4aF.png)
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on August 18, 2023, 08:35:43 PM
Well now...That certainly is a problem.
Or it's a sign of an up and cumming neighborhood!
I'll see myself out.
Quote from: forgetful on August 18, 2023, 08:33:26 PM
But the potential real crisis may be on the horizon. Some of these homes being purchased, are essentially being bought at a loss. What I mean, is there are individual investors (the ones Jwags references as IG investors) who are buying homes and renting them at a loss (losing money each month with the note higher than rent revenue). The plan, rent prices will soon go up, and the increase in home prices will leave them with a profit longer term.
That only works until prices drop and we suddenly have a ton of people underwater again and the system crashes on itself.
It happened during the 2009-10 financial crisis. Had I been more prescient, homes in AZ and NV could have been purchased dirt cheap. FL too, but thankfully dodged that shithole.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/10-things-that-are-getting-cheaper-185133196.html?.tsrc=372
"The chart below shows 10 spending categories where prices have declined during the last 12 months. We also include the two-year change in prices for those categories, to capture the broader price trends since inflation became a problem in 2021. Average incomes have risen by 4.4% during the last year, and 10% during the last two years. Anything that has risen by less than incomes is getting cheaper on a real, inflation-adjusted basis.
Rents are up 8% since this time last year, and 15% since 2021. Housing costs are the biggest expenditure for most families, and elevated rents remain the biggest unsolved inflation problem. Most homeowners were able to lower their housing costs during the last few years, by refinancing their mortgages when rates were at record lows. Renters didn't get that break. Help may be coming, however. A Zillow measure of rent inflation peaked last year, and has been dropping since then, which may portend lower rents as leases come due and renters re-sign or move."
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on August 18, 2023, 11:00:12 PM
It happened during the 2009-10 financial crisis. Had I been more prescient, homes in AZ and NV could have been purchased dirt cheap.
We visited the Phoenix area in the winters of 2009 and 2010, and man ... you're right.
We took a look at a couple Scottsdale houses that were listed for under $250K just a year or two after the owners had paid $400K+ for them. Bank-owned houses were all over the place, some reduced by 50% over the asking price just 6 months earlier. One 55+ community we looked at reduced the minimum-age requirement to 45, and you could buy new-construction houses there for under $150K.
If only the ol' balls had been crystal!
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on August 18, 2023, 08:35:43 PM
Well now...That certainly is a problem.
Well that typo certainly led to a completely different type of financial crisis.
Quote from: dgies9156 on August 18, 2023, 03:22:57 PM
Florida will be much harder. Our property assessor is highly competent and our valuation is on the nose. If you disagree with them, they invite you to come in and talk and they'll work with you. It's ahrd to argue with someone who is right and knows their stuff!
Brother dgies:
In Illinois (Cook County) we appealed every three years and always won because the assessor was either incompetent or following orders to grab all the $ they could (I know a lot of people never bothered to appeal). In Florida (as you say) there's no need to appeal. Fairness and competence takes care of that.
The contrast between state government agencies in Illinois (former home) and Florida (current home) is (per my experience anyway) amazing. When I walked into my local DMV to change my residence and get a driver's license I was amazed at how much more professional, personable and helpful they were in Florida vs Illinois. They made something I always dreaded into an easy, pleasant experience.
Lenny at the FL DMV
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/a5012734dd543f7d2e7efee7326b4ab4/9e98fedaa3e573d4-f5/s540x810/57cd9f33c4727ba85fa0fd65c36fee765478f439.gif)
Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 19, 2023, 06:43:22 PM
Brother dgies:
In Illinois (Cook County) we appealed every three years and always won because the assessor was either incompetent or following orders to grab all the $ they could (I know a lot of people never bothered to appeal). In Florida (as you say) there's no need to appeal. Fairness and competence takes care of that.
The contrast between state government agencies in Illinois (former home) and Florida (current home) is (per my experience anyway) amazing. When I walked into my local DMV to change my residence and get a driver's license I was amazed at how much more professional, personable and helpful they were in Florida vs Illinois. They made something I always dreaded into an easy, pleasant experience.
Brother Lenny:
Same in our County (Indian River). The DMV stuff is delegated to our county collector, who works furiously four months a year and ordinarily, hardly at all the remaining eight. This approach utilizes a bureaucracy every day of the year.
The folks there are competent and hard working. They were really helpful and also made sure I was registered to vote in Florida.
There's a different culture about public service in Florida versus Illinois. In Florida, they are expected to serve.