Saw this on the tweeter machine and thought I'd bring it here. In your lifetime, not all-time, who were the 5 best players in your mind.
My baseball memories begin in 1981, so I'll start.
My five are, in no particular order:
- Greg Maddux
- Barry Bonds
- Mariano Rivera
- Ichiro
- Tony Gwynn
Bonds, Shohei, Trout, Griffey, Jr., and ARod
Mantle, Aaron, Bonds, Ohtani, Mays
Quote from: wadesworld on June 30, 2023, 11:31:55 AM
Bonds, Shohei, Trout, Griffey, Jr., and ARod
Always wonder about Griffey. Losing the '94 season end to the strike and a chunk of '95 to injury in his prime hurt his overall numbers. Couple that with the abuse his legs took on the turf at the Kingdome, feels like he got cheated of even a greater career
Molina
Wainright
Carpenter
Edmonds
Pujols
But seriously:
Clemente
Bonds
Maddux
ARod
Ohtani
Quote from: Uncle Rico on June 30, 2023, 11:28:54 AM
- Tony Gwynn
How close do you have Boggs to Gwynn? I think I may lean toward Wade.
Kirby Puckett... so amazing. Hate that his career (and life) got cut short. Many great memories of him.
Quote from: Jay Bee on June 30, 2023, 12:16:21 PM
How close do you have Boggs to Gwynn? I think I may lean toward Wade.
Kirby Puckett... so amazing. Hate that his career (and life) got cut short. Many great memories of him.
Boggs over Gwynn is perfectly fine. Boggs took twice as many walks. Both were similar in power numbers. Boggs played in a more friendly ballpark, especially for lefties but to his credit, took advantage of it. I was always more fascinated watching Gwynn hit.
I probably have an anti-Kirby view because of how he raked against the Brewers. However, his game 6 in the '91 series was one of my favorite moments in baseball.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on June 30, 2023, 12:20:56 PM
I probably have an anti-Kirby view because of how he raked against the Brewers. However, his game 6 in the '91 series was one of my favorite moments in baseball.
Understandable. '87 at County Stadium... day before went 4/5 w 2 dingers... next game, 6/6 with another 2 HRs, plus robbed Yount of a grand slam... so great.
Having been at game 7 in 1987, I think maybe the only sporting event that could top it for me would be another MU national championship. Vikings SB win would be up there too, but I don't like even trying to think about that.
Quote from: Jay Bee on June 30, 2023, 12:33:13 PM
Understandable. '87 at County Stadium... day before went 4/5 w 2 dingers... next game, 6/6 with another 2 HRs, plus robbed Yount of a grand slam... so great.
Having been at game 7 in 1987, I think maybe the only sporting event that could top it for me would be another MU national championship. Vikings SB win would be up there too, but I don't like even trying to think about that.
Those games in '87 were wild. Still remember them vividly.
Interesting topic, Unk.
My "lifetime" and my baseball-watching years are different, of course.
The former includes the likes of Koufax, Gibson, Mays and Aaron in their primes. By the time I really tuned in, though, they were either retired or all but done.
Assuming that you meant the latter, and that juicing nomatta ...
A-Rod, Bonds, Griffey, Pedro, Rickey.
Two more great years and Shohei moves to the top of the heap.
Pete Rose
Hank Aaron
Johnny Bench
Frank Robinson
Mike Schmidt
87 was bizarre. 85-77. Negative run differential. 4.63 team ERA. 4th & 5th pitchers combined for a ~6.11 ERA (Mike smithson & an elderly Joe Niekro). But, we got the job done
#CardsSuck
Quote from: Uncle Rico on June 30, 2023, 11:28:54 AM
Saw this on the tweeter machine and thought I'd bring it here. In your lifetime, not all-time, who were the 5 best players in your mind.
My baseball memories begin in 1981, so I'll start.
My five are, in no particular order:
- Greg Maddux
- Barry Bonds
- Mariano Rivera
- Ichiro
- Tony Gwynn
Bonds
Rose
Griffey Jr.
Maddux
Trout
Hard to do.
Quote from: Jay Bee on June 30, 2023, 12:46:47 PM
87 was bizarre. 85-77. Negative run differential. 4.63 team ERA. 4th & 5th pitchers combined for a ~6.11 ERA (Mike smithson & an elderly Joe Niekro). But, we got the job done
#CardsSuck
Quality air management.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on June 30, 2023, 11:28:54 AM
Saw this on the tweeter machine and thought I'd bring it here. In your lifetime, not all-time, who were the 5 best players in your mind.
My baseball memories begin in 1981, so I'll start.
My five are, in no particular order:
- Greg Maddux
- Barry Bonds
- Mariano Rivera
- Ichiro
- Tony Gwynn
Maddux, Rivera, Ichiro definitely in the conversation.
Bonds: very good player pre-steroids, but far from top-5. Can't agree that steroid Barry should be included but realize that is a whole separate discussion that has already spilled an infinite amount of digital ink.
Gwynn? Great average hitter. I guess.
Bonds was one of the top players of all time even before steroids.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on June 30, 2023, 02:01:11 PM
Bonds was one of the top players of all time even before steroids.
IMO, he was very good in his prime, but far from top players all time. Pre-steroids, was he in the same conversation with Ruth, Williams, Spahn, Mays, Matthews, et al?
Steroids, of course, allowed him to be beyond top players of all time at a time in his career when others are barely hanging on or out of the game.
Quote from: Jay Bee on June 30, 2023, 12:33:13 PM
Understandable. '87 at County Stadium... day before went 4/5 w 2 dingers... next game, 6/6 with another 2 HRs, plus robbed Yount of a grand slam... so great.
Having been at game 7 in 1987, I think maybe the only sporting event that could top it for me would be another MU national championship. Vikings SB win would be up there too, but I don't like even trying to think about that.
You're lucky to have been there in '87, JB. I have never heard any sports facility louder than the Metrodome was after Hrbek hit his grand slam in Game 6. I have many great memories of Puckett, too, one of my personal faves when I was in Minnesota, and his performance in 1991 Game 6 was an all-timer.
Quote from: lawdog77 on June 30, 2023, 12:04:31 PM
Molina Gibson
Wainright Brock
Carpenter Pujols
Edmonds Ozzie
Pujols McGee
My kind of list. Since I probably am older, I made a broader list of Cardinals I'd seen.
Now for my true list:
Aaron
Mays
Clemente
Barry Bonds
Pete Rose
Pitchers
Gibson
Seaver
Maddux
Koufax (yes, I saw him and he lives just down the road from me)
Carlton (and this one really hurts!)
Quote from: MU82 on June 30, 2023, 02:21:32 PM
You're lucky to have been there in '87, JB. I have never heard any sports facility louder than the Metrodome was after Hrbek hit his grand slam in Game 6. I have many great memories of Puckett, too, one of my personal faves when I was in Minnesota, and his performance in 1991 Game 6 was an all-timer.
Incredibly fortunate. Back then, went to 25-30 games a year.
Said my goodbyes to Kirby over 15 years ago at the Dome. It was a rainy night. I drove the few miles from my house and went alone. Tears were shed, but I was not alone.
Btw, my homie's stepson has his MLB debut tonight. Starting on the hill for KC Vs the Catholic-hating Dodgers. Hoping for the best for him. Milwaukee kid.
I'm going to start with 1969, when I was 5 and paying attention. And then go with only players I saw at their peak (so no Mays, Aaron, Gibson, Clemente, Mantle, Koufax etc):
Rickey Henderson
Barry Bonds
Albert Pujols (heart says Frank Thomas, and they had similar 10 year streaks, but Albert gets nod)
Ichiro
Ohtani
Pitchers (I'd put position players above pitchers every time bc they play every day, and position players above DH's bc they play D):
Bruce Sutter
Mariano Rivera
Roger Clements
Greg Maddox
Pedro Martinez
Quote from: Jay Bee on June 30, 2023, 02:29:49 PM
Incredibly fortunate. Back then, went to 25-30 games a year.
Said my goodbyes to Kirby over 15 years ago at the Dome. It was a rainy night. I drove the few miles from my house and went alone. Tears were shed, but I was not alone.
Btw, my homie's stepson has his MLB debut tonight. Starting on the hill for KC Vs the Catholic-hating Dodgers. Hoping for the best for him. Milwaukee kid.
Hook me up with some nice seats and I'll go cheer him on.
Jay Bee
I remember those games back in '87. Simply amazing. He was a great player and clutch.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on June 30, 2023, 02:00:17 PM
Maddux, Rivera, Ichiro definitely in the conversation.
Bonds: very good player pre-steroids, but far from top-5. Can't agree that steroid Barry should be included but realize that is a whole separate discussion that has already spilled an infinite amount of digital ink.
Gwynn? Great average hitter. I guess.
Gwynn is the greatest hitter I've seen in my life. I could listen to him talk hitting for hours. Given how the game is played today, give me a million average hitters
Quote from: Uncle Rico on June 30, 2023, 02:53:37 PM
Gwynn is the greatest hitter I've seen in my life. I could listen to him talk hitting for hours. Given how the game is played today, give me a million average hitters
Gwynn was very, very good. IMO just not top 5 of his era or my lifetime. Amazing hitter no doubt. I see him as basically very much the same player as Rod Carew, who I would rate as very , very good but not top 5.
Quote from: Jay Bee on June 30, 2023, 02:29:49 PM
Btw, my homie's stepson has his MLB debut tonight. Starting on the hill for KC
That's cool. Good luck to him.
In my lifetime....
Bonds
Nolan Ryan
Greg Maddux
Ken Griffey JR
Shohei
Honorables to:
Randy Johnson
Mike Trout
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on June 30, 2023, 03:06:20 PM
Gwynn was very, very good. IMO just not top 5 of his era or my lifetime. Amazing hitter no doubt. I see him as basically very much the same player as Rod Carew, who I would rate as very , very good but not top 5.
As good of a hitter as Rod Carew was, and he was prettay, prettay......prettay good, he and Tony Gwynn played about the same number of years (19 for Carew and 20 for Gwynn), and had about the same number of at bats ( Carew 9,315 v. 9,288 for Gwynn). Gwynn struck out 424 times v. 1,028 for Carew in their careers! Gwynn had many years of over 500+ at bats and less than 20 strike outs each year. with the maximum number of strike outs in a year of 40!. The guy was a flippin' amazing hitter.
Quote from: Lighthouse 84 on June 30, 2023, 04:04:46 PM
As good of a hitter as Rod Carew was, and he was prettay, prettay......prettay good, he and Tony Gwynn played about the same number of years (19 for Carew and 20 for Gwynn), and had about the same number of at bats ( Carew 9,315 v. 9,288 for Gwynn). Gwynn struck out 424 times v. 1,028 for Carew in their careers! Gwynn had many years of over 500+ at bats and less than 20 strike outs each year. with the maximum number of strike outs in a year of 40!. The guy was a flippin' amazing hitter.
#strikeoutsnomatta
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on June 30, 2023, 04:12:22 PM
#strikeoutsnomatta
I'm not sure he's top 5 in my lifetime, but, #.338mattas No one other than Boggs or Carew are even close in the last 70+ years to him in career BA. A great average hitter? He was a phenomenal hitter for average.
Every list has to include Ohtani
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on June 30, 2023, 04:12:22 PM
#strikeoutsnomatta
They should.
I'm well aware of why they don't anymore but after years of reflection, I now disagree
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on June 30, 2023, 04:21:21 PM
Every list has to include Ohtani
Why?
I have him on my list but 5 1/2 years does not constitute GOAT.
At this point in time, he is the greatest to ever walk on a diamond. But if he gets hurt next week and never plays another game, he is not on the GOAT list (see Bo Jackson).
Quote from: Lighthouse 84 on June 30, 2023, 04:21:07 PM
I'm not sure he's top 5 in my lifetime, but, #.338mattas No one other than Boggs or Carew are even close in the last 70+ years to him in career BA. A great average hitter? He was a phenomenal hitter for average.
No question that he was an amazing hitter, there is no disputing it. Where I disagree is that he was one of the best 5 of his era. There are many overlapping and sometimes contradicting ways to evaluate it-- Carew has a lifetime WAR much higher than Gwynn for example-- but not sure that incredibly low strikeout totals are a significant factor.
Well, unnatural carnal knowledge, now you are making me sound like BeeJay, thanks for nothing.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on June 30, 2023, 05:39:06 PM
No question that he was an amazing hitter, there is no disputing it. Where I disagree is that he was one of the best 5 of his era. There are many overlapping and sometimes contradicting ways to evaluate it-- Carew has a lifetime WAR much higher than Gwynn for example-- but not sure that incredibly low strikeout totals are a significant factor.
Well, unnatural carnal knowledge, now you are making me sound like BeeJay, thanks for nothing.
You give me way too much credit. You'll never sound that smart.
Quote from: Lighthouse 84 on June 30, 2023, 05:42:58 PM
You give me way too much credit. You'll never sound that smart.
Or homophobic. Or misogynistic. Or religiously insane. Or like an incel. Or childishly pedantic...the list goes on.
Tony Gwynn was not top 5 in my lifetime. Never was considered the best player for a single season when he played. It would be a stretch to even say top 10.
Bonds, Clements, ARod, Rickey, Maddux.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on June 30, 2023, 05:55:30 PM
Tony Gwynn was not top 5 in my lifetime. Never was considered the best player for a single season when he played. It would be a stretch to even say top 10.
Bonds, Clements, ARod, Rickey, Maddux.
Can't argue w Clements hey? Lol
Ps - schilling has to be up there
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on June 30, 2023, 04:21:21 PM
Every list has to include Ohtani
This is his third season as a full-time ballplayer. Before that, he had battled injuries, had pitched in a total of 12 games and hadn't had a 400-AB season.
I'll stick with what I said earlier -- if he has 2 more years anything like these last 2 1/2 seasons, he'll zoom to the top of my list.
Eddie Mathews
Hank Aaron
Sandy Koufax
Willie Mays
Nolan Ryan
Close behind...Rico Carty and Rico Petrocelli, hey?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on June 30, 2023, 02:01:11 PM
Bonds was one of the top players of all time even before steroids.
He was on the way to the Hall pre steroids so Smitty is dead wrong. But assuming you're talking top 5, 10 or even 20 players - you're wrong, too.
Miguel Cabrera isn't getting any love. Up until 5 or so years ago we was an absolute stud. Even his rookie year he was the one who lead the marlins to the World Series (which sucked cuz I'm a cubs game)
My top 5:
Mays
Aaron
Clemente
Ichiro
Trout
Pitchers:
Koufax
Gibson
Maddox
Randy Johnson
Ryan
Favorites:
Dick Allen
Minnie Minoso
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 30, 2023, 08:03:16 PM
My top 5:
Mays
Aaron
Clemente
Ichiro
Trout
Pitchers:
Koufax
Gibson
Maddox
Randy Johnson
Ryan
Favorites:
Dick Allen
Minnie Minoso
Dick Allen was my favorite player all the way back to when he was Richie Allen.
Come on guys 5? These are the players I saw in person play.
Joe DiMaggio
Ted Williams
Stan Musial
Yoggi Berra
Mickey Mantle
Jackie Robinson
Willie Mays
Hank Aaron
Roberto Clemente
I could go on. As a kid, though I am a Yankee fan, I went to quite a few Dodger and Giants games when they were in Brooklyn and New York.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on June 30, 2023, 07:48:44 PM
Eddie Mathews
Hank Aaron
Sandy Koufax
Willie Mays
Nolan Ryan
Close behind...Rico Carty and Rico Petrocelli, hey?
Rico Carty? First time I have heard his name in ages. He did a broken English Gillette commercial that was a hoot.
Quote from: MU82 on June 30, 2023, 07:24:13 PM
This is his third season as a full-time ballplayer. Before that, he had battled injuries, had pitched in a total of 12 games and hadn't had a 400-AB season.
I'll stick with what I said earlier -- if he has 2 more years anything like these last 2 1/2 seasons, he'll zoom to the top of my list.
I get this statement and its why in the other thread I wouldnt make him the GOAT of baseball, yet.
But this thread is about the five best players any of us have witnessed in our liftimes. Ohtani could stop playing right now, and there is not a chance on earth we have seen 5 players play baseball better than him. Even if its a short stretch.
Hes already a two time MVP(yes im just handing him this years) and would be 3 time if not for a home run record being broken.
We got people mentioning tony freaking gwynn on their lists. That guy played 20 seasons. In 3 of those seasons was his OPS higher than Ohtanis career average OPS. He had to hit .370, .372 and .394 to achieve those.
And thats just batting anyways. Completely ignores that Ohtani is a Cy young candiate as well.
Ohtani's body of work is too small
Stan Musial. Who missed ball for WW11 and the Korean War and came back both times to dominate
Pete Rose
Willy Mays
Mantle
Clemente
Pitchers
Nolan Ryan
Gibson
Maddox
Leroy Satchel Page
Koufax
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on July 01, 2023, 10:29:55 AM
I get this statement and its why in the other thread I wouldnt make him the GOAT of baseball, yet.
But this thread is about the five best players any of us have witnessed in our liftimes. Ohtani could stop playing right now, and there is not a chance on earth we have seen 5 players play baseball better than him. Even if its a short stretch.
Hes already a two time MVP(yes im just handing him this years) and would be 3 time if not for a home run record being broken.
We got people mentioning tony freaking gwynn on their lists. That guy played 20 seasons. In 3 of those seasons was his OPS higher than Ohtanis career average OPS. He had to hit .370, .372 and .394 to achieve those.
And thats just batting anyways. Completely ignores that Ohtani is a Cy young candiate as well.
I'll stick with what I said. But I do admit you make a compelling argument.
Of course, one also could say you make a compelling argument for Pujols, as he had not-since-Ted-Williams numbers his first 10 seasons.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 30, 2023, 07:50:19 PM
He was on the way to the Hall pre steroids so Smitty is dead wrong. But assuming you're talking top 5, 10 or even 20 players - you're wrong, too.
Well, here is exactly what I said:
"Bonds: very good player pre-steroids, but far from top-5. Can't agree that steroid Barry should be included but realize that is a whole separate discussion that has already spilled an infinite amount of digital ink.
IMO, he was very good in his prime, but far from top players all time. Pre-steroids, was he in the same conversation with Ruth, Williams, Spahn, Mays, Matthews, et al?
Steroids, of course, allowed him to be beyond top players of all time at a time in his career when others are barely hanging on or out of the game."So grats on proving I was dead wrong about something I didn't say.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on July 01, 2023, 04:26:09 PM
Well, here is exactly what I said:
"Bonds: very good player pre-steroids, but far from top-5. Can't agree that steroid Barry should be included but realize that is a whole separate discussion that has already spilled an infinite amount of digital ink.
IMO, he was very good in his prime, but far from top players all time. Pre-steroids, was he in the same conversation with Ruth, Williams, Spahn, Mays, Matthews, et al?
Steroids, of course, allowed him to be beyond top players of all time at a time in his career when others are barely hanging on or out of the game."
So grats on proving I was dead wrong about something I didn't say.
🐷🐷
(https://images2.imgbox.com/24/0b/vkqI5DLL_o.jpg) (https://imgbox.com/vkqI5DLL)
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on July 01, 2023, 04:26:09 PM
Well, here is exactly what I said:
"Bonds: very good player pre-steroids, but far from top-5. Can't agree that steroid Barry should be included but realize that is a whole separate discussion that has already spilled an infinite amount of digital ink.
IMO, he was very good in his prime, but far from top players all time. Pre-steroids, was he in the same conversation with Ruth, Williams, Spahn, Mays, Matthews, et al?
Steroids, of course, allowed him to be beyond top players of all time at a time in his career when others are barely hanging on or out of the game."
So grats on proving I was dead wrong about something I didn't say.
You said he was a "very good player" pre steroids. That is such a ridiculous understatement that calling it dead wrong is accurate. By the time he was 28 he had won three (3) MVPs and led the league in WAR 4 times. He wasn't "very good" - he was a superstar. Without steroids he was on a trajectory to being an all time great. Not top 5 imo but for sure in the team photo, certainly ahead of 2 of the 5 you refer to as "all time greats".
One of the all time great baseball deals is Bobby Bonillas 25 year deferred contract payout. Getting $1.3 million a year on July1 from the Mets and another .5 million a year from the Orioles .
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/bobby-bonilla-day-why-mets-still-owe-former-mlb-all-star-1-19m-per-year-on-july-1/amp/
Are you guys not paying attention?
1. Ohtani
2. Ohtani
3. Ohtani
4. Ohtani
5. Ohtani
He is the best player since Babe Ruth. And at the rate he's going, especially this month, we might drop "Babe Ruth" from that statement.
(This thread reminds me of my friends in Boston in the early mid-1980s desperately trying to convince everyone that Wayne Gretzky was not as good as Bobby Orr.)
Ohtani is nowhere near to baseball what Gretzky was to hockey.
He's not even the best Los Angeles Angel of my lifetime. He may be when all is said and done, but even his best season prior to this (2021) he had a total WAR of 8.9, which includes both hitting and pitching. Mike Trout has had FOUR seasons better than that.
And it's not as though Ohtani is some young unknown just breaking into the league. He's 28.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on July 02, 2023, 08:09:28 AM
Ohtani is nowhere near to baseball what Gretzky was to hockey.
He's not even the best Los Angeles Angel of my lifetime. He may be when all is said and done, but even his best season prior to this (2021) he had a total WAR of 8.9, which includes both hitting and pitching. Mike Trout has had FOUR seasons better than that.
And it's not as though Ohtani is some young unknown just breaking into the league. He's 28.
This a good read on why the WAR statistic for a two-way player is a flawed measure (and Ohtani is the only two-way player)
June 30
A Thought on Ohtani, WAR, and Wowhttps://robert-black.medium.com/a-thought-on-ohtani-war-and-wow-a622067d9f64
So, they adjusted his WAR for being a two-way player ...
Refiguring Ohtani's WAR for his pitching and ABs
2018: 7.2
2019: 4.9
2020: 0.9
2021: 13.9
2022: 15.7
2023: 9.6
Peak Barry Bonds put up seasons around 12.5. Babe Ruth's very best season ever was 14.7, in 1923. The best pitching season on record is Pedro Martinez in 1999, 11.6 WAR, or, if you prefer RA9-WAR, Walter Johnson's 16.2 in 1913 (excluding 19th century stuff when pitchers threw practically every day; the best mark of the live-ball era is Bob Gibson's 13.5 in 1968).
Calculated this way, Ohtani is on pace for something like 19 this year.
---
To highlight,
Ohtani already has among the highest two-way adjusted WARs ever recorded, and if he continues his 2023 pace, his projected 19 WAR this year will exceed Walter Johnson's 16.2 1913 record.
Last year, Ohtani's WAR broke Bob Gibson's record for the WAR in the live ball era.
-----------------------
And Ohtani might have just completed the best month in baseball history.
July 1
Angels superstar Shohei Ohtani just had the best June in MLB history — yes, even better than Babe RuthOhtani had a top-25 month ever by OPS and he also was outstanding on the mound
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/angels-superstar-shohei-ohtani-just-had-the-best-june-in-mlb-history-yes-even-better-than-babe-ruth/
-----------------------
I stand by my assertion that the five best players any of us have ever seen are
1. Ohtani
2. Ohtani
3. Ohtani
4. Ohtani
5. Ohtani
" So what if we gave him a pitcher's positional adjustment for all his games?"
Lol. So in other words he adjusted a stat to get his predetermined result. No thanks.
And the biggest reason to think that Ohtani isn't the best player ever is because he's received the Heisey kiss of death.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on July 02, 2023, 10:12:18 AM
" So what if we gave him a pitcher's positional adjustment for all his games?"
Lol. So in other words he adjusted a stat to get his predetermined result. No thanks.
And the biggest reason to think that Ohtani isn't the best player ever is because he's received the Heisey kiss of death.
Why do you always attack everyone that disagrees with you? Is anyone allowed an opinion that you do not agree with?
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on July 02, 2023, 10:24:57 AM
Why do you always attack everyone that disagrees with you? Is anyone allowed an opinion that you do not agree with?
I just like dunking on you because you are so spectacularly wrong so very often.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on July 02, 2023, 10:30:34 AM
I just like dunking on you because you are so spectacularly wrong so very often.
Again with the attacks. You must be a miserable person in real life.
I feel sorry for your family, what a punishment you are for them.
So spectacularly wrong so very often = I disagree with Sultan, so personal attacks are justified, as he is the only opinion that is correct.
----
In the meantime ... I will note that you completely dismiss this guy's analysis of the WAR statistic simply because it does not fit your opinion.
Dan Szymborski
@DSzymborski
Senior Writer for FanGraphs, ESPN contributor, data consultant, ZiPSetician, gamer, talkative, exasperated/ing, possibly the worst. BBWAA, Digital Dandy.
Everyone is an idiot that does not agree with Sultan.
And he will die don't he hill that Ohtani is not a special player.
Thanks for ruining yet another thread.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on July 02, 2023, 10:52:12 AM
Again with the attacks. You must be a miserable person in real life.
I feel sorry for your family, what a punishment you are for them.
So spectacularly wrong so very often = I disagree with Sultan, so personal attacks are justified, as he is the only opinion that is correct.
----
In the meantime ... I will note that you completely dismiss this guy's analysis of the WAR statistic simply because it does not fit your opinion.
Dan Szymborski
@DSzymborski
Senior Writer for FanGraphs, ESPN contributor, data consultant, ZiPSetician, gamer, talkative, exasperated/ing, possibly the worst. BBWAA, Digital Dandy.
Everyone is an idiot that does not agree with Sultan.
And he will die don't he hill that Ohtani is not a special player.
Thanks for ruining yet another thread.
Anytime!
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on July 02, 2023, 11:06:57 AM
Anytime!
Ohtani's story hasn't been completely written. He's incredible and I'll listen to arguments about his place in history but if he fell off a cliff as a player moving forward, you appreciate what he's done and wonder what could have been.
He's two and a half years into one of the great stretches in baseball history. Does he have greater staying power? I hope so because he's fun as hell
Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 02, 2023, 11:12:34 AM
Ohtani's story hasn't been completely written. He's incredible and I'll listen to arguments about his place in history but if he fell off a cliff as a player moving forward, you appreciate what he's done and wonder what could have been.
He's two and a half years into one of the great stretches in baseball history. Does he have greater staying power? I hope so because he's fun as hell
Agreed.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 02, 2023, 11:12:34 AM
Ohtani's story hasn't been completely written. He's incredible and I'll listen to arguments about his place in history but if he fell off a cliff as a player moving forward, you appreciate what he's done and wonder what could have been.
He's two and a half years into one of the great stretches in baseball history. Does he have greater staying power? I hope so because he's fun as hell
Of course this is correct.
If your OP had asked us to name the 5 best players we've seen in any 2-3 year stretch, I'd have have listed Ohtani first. Pujols, Frank Thomas and, hell, Sosa and McGwire probably would also be on that list if nobody cares about juicing.
From 1998-2001, Sosa AVERAGED 61 HRs and 149 RBIs with a 1.058 OPS, for crissakes!
If anybody had asked your OP question midway through the 2006 season -- Pujols' 6th season in the bigs -- some might have answered:
1. Pujols
2. Pujols
3. Pujols
4. Pujols
5. Pujols
I love watching Ohtani play. He's incredible, and the pitching piece makes him an absolute freak, the likes of which baseball has never seen (not even Ruth pitched and hit like this in multiple seasons at the same time).
But I need more than 2 1/2 years to put his career into the same stratosphere as the players I listed as my top 5. As you said, I hope Ohtani has staying power so we can look back and say, "What an incredible decade he had. He's probably the best ballplayer ever!"
Quote from: MU82 on July 01, 2023, 03:49:08 PM
I'll stick with what I said. But I do admit you make a compelling argument.
Of course, one also could say you make a compelling argument for Pujols, as he had not-since-Ted-Williams numbers his first 10 seasons.
Funny you mention Albert
Because he was the person I meant to comment on here is being vastly undervalued.
That guy was so goddamn good for a decade
Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 02, 2023, 11:12:34 AM
Ohtani's story hasn't been completely written. He's incredible and I'll listen to arguments about his place in history but if he fell off a cliff as a player moving forward, you appreciate what he's done and wonder what could have been.
He's two and a half years into one of the great stretches in baseball history. Does he have greater staying power? I hope so because he's fun as hell
Quote from: MU82 on July 02, 2023, 11:49:40 AM
But I need more than 2 1/2 years to put his career into the same stratosphere as the players I listed as my top 5. As you said, I hope Ohtani has staying power so we can look back and say, "What an incredible decade he had. He's probably the best ballplayer ever!"
These are interesting responses, do not disagree.
How do you define staying power? Assuming he continues this year as he has, that is three years. How many more years?
Let me offer a potential answer.
The average MLB career is 5.6 years, and the average retirement age is 29.5 years.
Source: https://mlbrun.com/average-career-length-of-mlb#:~:text=Average%20career%20length%20of%20MLB%20Player%20is%205.6%20years.,players%2C%20and%20the%20major%20league.
Ohtani is 28. If he can continue this pace (or close to it) for two more years, would that qualify as staying power, and then we start talking about his place in history?
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on July 02, 2023, 01:51:49 PM
The average MLB career is 5.6 years, and the average retirement age is 29.5 years.
I'm not sure this is relevant in a discussion of all-time greats. Presumably this includes guys who had the proverbial cup of coffee in the league, late-season call-ups, etc.
On the other hand - recognizing these numbers could be slightly dated - as of 2012, the average batter in Cooperstown played 18 seasons, 2,147 games had 9,051 plate appearances and 7,963 at bats.
https://www.replacementlevelpodcast.com/2012/07/22/your-average-hall-of-famer/
Trying to find similar figures for pitchers.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 02, 2023, 02:42:42 PM
I'm not sure this is relevant in a discussion of all-time greats. Presumably this includes guys who had the proverbial cup of coffee in the league, late-season call-ups, etc.
On the other hand - recognizing these numbers could be slightly dated - as of 2012, the average batter in Cooperstown played 18 seasons, 2,147 games had 9,051 plate appearances and 7,963 at bats.
https://www.replacementlevelpodcast.com/2012/07/22/your-average-hall-of-famer/
Trying to find similar figures for pitchers.
Good stat.
On this front, Ohtani is finishing his sixth season. Unless he has a major health or injury-related issue, he has at least another decade in MLB, putting him close to that 18-year average.
Like Pujois, we should expect the last several seasons of his career to be "average" or "mediocre." He'll stop being a two-way player during this part of his career.
How many of these transformation seasons does he need to be considered in the Babe Ruth category as one of the greatest ever (or maybe even the greatest ever)? Again, assuming no setback this year, he has three such consecutive seasons done.
----
Side note, Ohtani did not speak English when he came over. I don't know how well his English is now, but I assume it is not good as you never see him interviewed or doing endorsements (or hosting SNL).
How much has his inability to speak English hurt his reputation as one of the great players in the game?
I posit that true baseball fans understand his talent, but the mass public would think more of him if he was on TV pitching products.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on July 02, 2023, 01:51:49 PM
How do you define staying power? Assuming he continues this year as he has, that is three years. How many more years?
The average MLB career is 5.6 years, and the average retirement age is 29.5 years.
Ohtani is 28. If he can continue this pace (or close to it) for two more years, would that qualify as staying power, and then we start talking about his place in history?
Well, as I said in a post not all that long after Unk initiated this thread:
Quote from: MU82 on June 30, 2023, 12:40:58 PM
Two more great years and Shohei moves to the top of the heap.
Kirby Puckett
Why? I grew up in MN and he ensured the Twins won two World Series in five years.
As I said earlier, any day that he walks on the diamond, he can be considered the greatest to ever do so.
But as of now, he is not one of the greatest players of all time. To even be considered, he needs at least 6-8 more years of putting up similar numbers.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on July 02, 2023, 04:27:26 PM
How much has his inability to speak English hurt his reputation as one of the great players in the game?
I posit that true baseball fans understand his talent, but the mass public would think more of him if he was on TV pitching products.
ZERO. Mike Trout speaks perfect English and is an American and the mass public doesn't know him from Mike Bass, other than his name as a great player. MLB doesn't market their players well and MLB has a regional product problem. I honestly think Ohtani has been marketed and accepted as well as he could. I don't think he's any less known than Aaron Judge, honestly I think he's more well known.
Quote from: Jockey on July 02, 2023, 07:19:06 PM
As I said earlier, any day that he walks on the diamond, he can be considered the greatest to ever do so.
But as of now, he is not one of the greatest players of all time. To even be considered, he needs at least 6-8 more years of putting up similar numbers.
I agree. There is the idea of a player's peak and a player's career. When talked about as one of the all time greats, its referring to the latter. Which is why you don't talk about guys like Tim Lincecum or DeGrom as an "all time great" even though their peaks were nearly unhittable
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 01, 2023, 08:49:36 PM
You said he was a "very good player" pre steroids. That is such a ridiculous understatement that calling it dead wrong is accurate. By the time he was 28 he had won three (3) MVPs and led the league in WAR 4 times. He wasn't "very good" - he was a superstar. Without steroids he was on a trajectory to being an all time great. Not top 5 imo but for sure in the team photo, certainly ahead of 2 of the 5 you refer to as "all time greats".
I said he wasn't top 5 pre-steriods.
You said he wasn't top 5, and then said I was dead wrong. So you then moved the goalposts.
Really, when people say you've become Chicos maybe you should take it to heart.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on July 02, 2023, 09:54:37 AM
I stand by my assertion that the five best players any of us have ever seen are
1. Ohtani
2. Ohtani
3. Ohtani
4. Ohtani
5. Ohtani
In less than 6 years, Ohtani has a 145 average OPS+.
Willie Mays averaged a 155 OPS+ in 23 seasons. Mays was faster and better defensively than Ohtani.
Ohtani, of course has the pitching stats. But he has to play at or close to his current level for many more years to be considered the GOAT.
Not sure why Ohtani is even in the conversation. We all know his blk% is zero.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on July 03, 2023, 01:01:20 PM
I said he wasn't top 5 pre-steriods.
You said he wasn't top 5, and then said I was dead wrong. So you then moved the goalposts.
Really, when people say you've become Chicos maybe you should take it to heart.
Talk about moving goalposts. Here's EXACTLY what you said:
"He was very good in his prime but FAR from the top 5. Pre steroids, was he in the conversation with Ruth, Williams, Spahn, Mays, Matthews et al"?
Very Good in his prime? You refer to Gwynn and Rod Carew as very, very good and Bonds pre steroids is "very good"? He was a freakin' superstar. He won 3 MVPs by the age of 28 and had led the league in WAR at least 4 times. He was the best player in baseball. And you don't think he belonged in the conversation with Eddie Matthews? LOL.
Pre steroid Barry Bonds was not a "very good player". Baseball has seen thousands of those. He was, long before steroids, a cinch Hall of Famer.
If you want to stick to your guns that Bonds was merely a "very good player" and that when you say a guy doesn't even belong in the same conversation with Eddie Mathews what you mean by that is he's not quite top 5 all time, fine.
I smile when you call me Chico - as with others, it's tantamount to admitting you've lost the argument. So thanks.
Quote from: Jockey on July 03, 2023, 01:25:27 PM
In less than 6 years, Ohtani has a 145 average OPS+.
Willie Mays averaged a 155 OPS+ in 23 seasons. Mays was faster and better defensively than Ohtani.
Ohtani, of course has the pitching stats. But he has to play at or close to his current level for many more years to be considered the GOAT.
Ohtani is a DH ... unsure about his defense.
Also, the question included the qualifier "of your lifetime."
His last season was 1973 - 50 years ago. How old are you?
Quote from: Jay Bee on July 03, 2023, 01:52:53 PM
Not sure why Ohtani is even in the conversation. We all know his blk% is zero.
Very nicely played.
Quote from: Jockey on July 03, 2023, 01:25:27 PM
In less than 6 years, Ohtani has a 145 average OPS+.
Willie Mays averaged a 155 OPS+ in 23 seasons. Mays was faster and better defensively than Ohtani.
Ohtani, of course has the pitching stats. But he has to play at or close to his current level for many more years to be considered the GOAT.
Honestly, I think that comparison shows very well to Ohtani. Also the difference in style of play I think is meaningful. Mays had plenty of power but was someone who hit for average and collected a lot of bases which definitely helps OPS+. Ohtani is more of the best version of the 3 outcome hitter of modern baseball.
The fact that Ohtani is putting up a hitting season that is as high in OPS+ as Mays ever did and could surpass his bests in some other key stats...while also being top 10 in ERA, top 20 in Ws, top 5 in SOs, and top 5 in WHIP is just breathtakingly absurd.
Quote from: JWags85 on July 03, 2023, 02:29:08 PM
Honestly, I think that comparison shows very well to Ohtani. Also the difference in style of play I think is meaningful. Mays had plenty of power but was someone who hit for average and collected a lot of bases which definitely helps OPS+. Ohtani is more of the best version of the 3 outcome hitter of modern baseball.
The fact that Ohtani is putting up a hitting season that is as high in OPS+ as Mays ever did and could surpass his bests in some other key stats...while also being top 10 in ERA, top 20 in Ws, top 5 in SOs, and top 5 in WHIP is just breathtakingly absurd.
I agree.
And I think we both agree that nobody in a major sport can be a GOAT in 5 1/2 years
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 03, 2023, 01:59:11 PM
Talk about moving goalposts. Here's EXACTLY what you said:
"He was very good in his prime but FAR from the top 5. Pre steroids, was he in the conversation with Ruth, Williams, Spahn, Mays, Matthews et al"?
Very Good in his prime? You refer to Gwynn and Rod Carew as very, very good and Bonds pre steroids is "very good"? He was a freakin' superstar. He won 3 MVPs by the age of 28 and had led the league in WAR at least 4 times. He was the best player in baseball. And you don't think he belonged in the conversation with Eddie Matthews? LOL.
Pre steroid Barry Bonds was not a "very good player". Baseball has seen thousands of those. He was, long before steroids, a cinch Hall of Famer.
If you want to stick to your guns that Bonds was merely a "very good player" and that when you say a guy doesn't even belong in the same conversation with Eddie Mathews what you mean by that is he's not quite top 5 all time, fine.
I smile when you call me Chico - as with others, it's tantamount to admitting you've lost the argument. So thanks.
The question wasn't how many variations of "good" to ladle on him, Cheeks, it was weather he was top 5 pre-steroids. I said he wasn't. You said he wasn't and that I was absolutely wrong. To cover up your reading comprehension problems, you changed the argument to how many "goods" and "greats" he should get.
Keep hauling those goalposts around, Cheeks. And maybe take some time for self-reflection.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on July 03, 2023, 05:21:23 PM
The question wasn't how many variations of "good" to ladle on him, Cheeks, it was weather he was top 5 pre-steroids. I said he wasn't. You said he wasn't and that I was absolutely wrong. To cover up your reading comprehension problems, you changed the argument to how many "goods" and "greats" he should get.
Keep hauling those goalposts around, Cheeks. And maybe take some time for self-reflection.
🐷🐷
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on July 03, 2023, 05:21:23 PM
The question wasn't how many variations of "good" to ladle on him, Cheeks, it was weather he was top 5 pre-steroids. I said he wasn't. You said he wasn't and that I was absolutely wrong. To cover up your reading comprehension problems, you changed the argument to how many "goods" and "greats" he should get.
Keep hauling those goalposts around, Cheeks. And maybe take some time for self-reflection.
My comprehension is just fine. The problem is you're lying.
You're the one who keeps running away from what you said - that a guy who had three MVPs and was widely recognized as the games best player didn't belong to even be in the conversation with Eddie Mathews. That's an indefensible position and a huge minimization of what Bonds was pre steroids. Instead of owning it and acknowledging that it was ridiculous you run and hide from it - not even acknowledging that you said it, claiming (outright lie) that all you ever said was that pre steroids Bonds wasn't a top 5 all time player.
And then you name call and say I need to be more self reflective?
Time for you to cry wee wee wee all the way home.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on July 01, 2023, 11:51:37 PM
Are you guys not paying attention?
1. Ohtani
2. Ohtani
3. Ohtani
4. Ohtani
5. Ohtani
He is the best player since Babe Ruth. And at the rate he's going, especially this month, we might drop "Babe Ruth" from that statement.
(This thread reminds me of my friends in Boston in the early mid-1980s desperately trying to convince everyone that Wayne Gretzky was not as good as Bobby Orr.)
Earlier today Ohtani might have had the greatest single day in baseball history.
I reiterate my list above.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/38083821/ohtani-rewards-angels-faith-historic-1-hit-shutout-2-hrs-doubleheader
Ohtani's start was his best in the majors. He gave up one hit, walked three and struck out eight on 111 pitches, including fastballs nearing 100 mph and sliders and splitters that left the Tigers flailing. Ohtani improved to 9-5 with a 3.43 ERA on the mound.
In Game 2, Ohtani returned to the designated hitter role. The left-handed hitter hit a two-run homer to left in the second inning and a line drive to right-center in the fourth before Nevin pulled him out of the game after he was grimacing in pain.
Ohtani
Mays
Clemente
Carew (completely underated)
Nolan Ryan
I would say that Rod Carew is underrated no doubt. But top 5?
And Nolan Ryan? If I were going for a dominant hard thrower, it would be Pedro Martinez at his peak hands down.
Quote from: PBRme on July 28, 2023, 09:11:45 AM
Ohtani
Mays
Clemente
Carew (completely underated)
Nolan Ryan
Why would Clemente, Mays and Carew be ahead if Henry Aaron?
Quote from: MuggsyB on July 28, 2023, 09:59:11 AM
Why would Clemente, Mays and Carew be ahead if Henry Aaron?
Because they never saw Henry Aaron play!
He was incredible.
Marty Taylor. side arm left handed pitcher that had an unhittable curve ball. But girls distracted his high school career, then an auto wreck killed it, literally. RIP.
Oh, and Aaron. Saw his spring training games as a kid. Did I get an autographed ball? Yes. Did I lose it later? Yes. :-[
Favorite Players:
-Rickey Henderson
-Ryne Sandberg/The Hawk/Maddux/All Cubs Really
-Don Mattingly/The Goose/Winfield
-Sandy (and Roberto) Alomar Jr/Julio Franco/Kenny Lofton
-Paul Molitor
-Mike Schmidt
-Terry Steinbach
Best:
Rickey
Maddux
Bonds
Griffey Jr
Randy Johnson
I'm not a baseball fan, but this thread reminded me of a family story that was hilarious to everyone except one of my nieces. She never had any interest in team sports, but absolutely loves flyfishing. On one trip, she chatted from time to time with a nearby fly fisherman. At the end of the day, they decided to grab a quick meal and talk more about flyfishing. The guy said he was retired, and when my niece asked him what kind of work he had done, he replied that he played professional baseball.
When she told my brother and sister-in-law about the encounter, my brother asked what the guy's name was. It had been a while, so she struggled to remember, but eventually she said "Sandy......Koufax?"
Of course, she immediately regretted saying anything, as we all got a big laugh out of her not recognizing his name. Today the subject is strictly off limits as far as she is concerned.
I'm not a huge baseball guy, but where does George Brett fall in anyone's list? Is he a top 20 guy? I was not a Royals or Brett fan but he seemed damn good.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on July 30, 2023, 08:23:55 PM
I'm not a huge baseball guy, but where does George Brett fall in anyone's list? Is he a top 20 guy? I was not a Royals or Brett fan but he seemed damn good.
I don't think he is a top 20 all time position player. Mike Schmidt was better in the same era. Ditto Joe Morgan, who was a little older, and Cal Ripken who was a little younger.
But he's right there after those contemporaries IMO.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on July 30, 2023, 08:23:55 PM
I'm not a huge baseball guy, but where does George Brett fall in anyone's list? Is he a top 20 guy? I was not a Royals or Brett fan but he seemed damn good.
George Brett is the best baseball player i ever saw. I was at most of the Yankee -Royals Bronx post season games in the 70s and 80s, and the way Brett performed in front of 50,000 people who wanted to murder him was beyond description.