MUScoop

MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: tower912 on June 24, 2023, 08:24:34 AM

Title: The War in Russia
Post by: tower912 on June 24, 2023, 08:24:34 AM
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Putin is still the bad guy in all of this.   But I sure don't see a good guy.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Scoop Snoop on June 24, 2023, 08:56:09 AM
You pretty well covered it Tower. Russia could end up going from the frying pan into the fire when this all shakes out.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: dgies9156 on June 24, 2023, 09:14:53 AM
The last time Russia got into a stupid war (Afghanistan), they ended up with Gorbachov and the start of the velvet revolution.

Putin may be the end of Russia as we know it.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on June 24, 2023, 09:20:13 AM
I think Putin's done. Apparently the Russian security forces aren't resisting as Wagner makes its way to Moscow.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Uncle Rico on June 24, 2023, 09:32:55 AM
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on June 24, 2023, 09:20:13 AM
I think Putin's done. Apparently the Russian security forces aren't resisting as Wagner makes its way to Moscow.

At least he has Tucker on his side.  He's a kingmaker
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: JWags85 on June 24, 2023, 10:17:00 AM
I'm not entirely sure this isn't a psyop/false flag.  Especially since allegedly Progozhin doesn't have an issue with Putin, just his lead generals.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on June 24, 2023, 10:22:12 AM
Putin supposedly has fled Moscow.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: tower912 on June 24, 2023, 10:23:39 AM
Possible.  That would be some next level stuff.   Have Wagner purge the ineffective generals and take over the war.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on June 24, 2023, 10:26:04 AM
Quote from: tower912 on June 24, 2023, 10:23:39 AM
Possible.  That would be some next level stuff.   Have Wagner purge the ineffective generals and take over the war.

I think the messaging would be a lot different. And I think Putin would realize that he is now beholden to someone else.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on June 24, 2023, 10:50:09 AM
Quote from: JWags85 on June 24, 2023, 10:17:00 AM
I'm not entirely sure this isn't a psyop/false flag.  Especially since allegedly Progozhin doesn't have an issue with Putin, just his lead generals.
Not ruling it out, but Progozhin has been stating that "Russia will soon have a new President".
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on June 24, 2023, 10:52:21 AM
Quote from: Uncle Rico on June 24, 2023, 09:32:55 AM
At least he has Tucker on his side.  He's a kingmaker
Seems the invasion of Ukraine wasn't actually "genius" and "savvy".
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: forgetful on June 24, 2023, 10:55:36 AM
I'm not sure that this is remotely a good thing.

Progozhin is even more of a warmonger. I wouldn't rule out him using tactical nukes or something like that.

Also, wouldn't rule out a false flag type psyops. Maybe Progozhin rebelling, seizes weaponry, unleashes tactical nukes on Ukraine, and then Putin takes him out saying he was a terrorist.

Don't see any good coming out of this. Hope I'm wrong.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: tower912 on June 24, 2023, 11:03:03 AM
There is no good there.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on June 24, 2023, 11:19:29 AM
Quote from: forgetful on June 24, 2023, 10:55:36 AM
I'm not sure that this is remotely a good thing.

Progozhin is even more of a warmonger. I wouldn't rule out him using tactical nukes or something like that.

Also, wouldn't rule out a false flag type psyops. Maybe Progozhin rebelling, seizes weaponry, unleashes tactical nukes on Ukraine, and then Putin takes him out saying he was a terrorist.

Don't see any good coming out of this. Hope I'm wrong.


Putin was at least a rational actor. Until he wasn't....
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: MU82 on June 24, 2023, 12:36:22 PM
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on June 24, 2023, 10:22:12 AM
Putin supposedly has fled Moscow.

Did he take the pee-pee tapes with him?
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: 21Jumpstreet on June 24, 2023, 12:59:23 PM
Quote from: forgetful on June 24, 2023, 10:55:36 AM
I'm not sure that this is remotely a good thing.

Progozhin is even more of a warmonger. I wouldn't rule out him using tactical nukes or something like that.

Also, wouldn't rule out a false flag type psyops. Maybe Progozhin rebelling, seizes weaponry, unleashes tactical nukes on Ukraine, and then Putin takes him out saying he was a terrorist.

Don't see any good coming out of this. Hope I'm wrong.

This is my fear, Putin is crazy, Prigozhin might be crazier.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on June 24, 2023, 02:57:30 PM
There's some evidence Lukasenko may have fled Belarus.  His plane landed in Turkey after flying over Russian airspace with the transponders off.  He has not been sited in Turkey yet so it could be something else.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: jesmu84 on June 24, 2023, 03:24:37 PM
Coup called off. It's too nice outside for a coup
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on June 24, 2023, 04:35:40 PM
Did not see "call off coup against murderous dictator half-way through" coming.

Surely Putin won't hold a grudge, will he?
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: GB Warrior on June 24, 2023, 04:43:59 PM
This ceasefire is unequivocally a good thing as Prigozhin or anyone aligned with him would have been worse than Putin.

That said, my broken brain is disappointed that it ended so uneventfully
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: tower912 on June 24, 2023, 04:54:46 PM
Progozhin had better have a food taster and had better never go to an upper floor again.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 24, 2023, 05:03:36 PM
Quote from: MU82 on June 24, 2023, 12:36:22 PM
Did he take the pee-pee tapes with him?

He sent them to Adam Schiff. Big reveal on MSNBC tonight.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: MU82 on June 24, 2023, 05:25:06 PM
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 24, 2023, 05:03:36 PM
He sent them to Adam Schiff. Big reveal on MSNBC tonight.

Would be MSNBC's highest-rated show ever!
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: ChitownSpaceForRent on June 24, 2023, 06:31:52 PM
Quote from: GB Warrior on June 24, 2023, 04:43:59 PM
This ceasefire is unequivocally a good thing as Prigozhin or anyone aligned with him would have been worse than Putin.

That said, my broken brain is disappointed that it ended so uneventfully

Prigozhin organized his retirement plan. Dude is gonna be sitting on a massive pile of cash in Belarus.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Scoop Snoop on June 24, 2023, 06:53:11 PM
Quote from: GB Warrior on June 24, 2023, 04:43:59 PM
This ceasefire is unequivocally a good thing as Prigozhin or anyone aligned with him would have been worse than Putin.

That said, my broken brain is disappointed that it ended so uneventfully

You might think this is over...but I sure as Hell don't.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 24, 2023, 07:00:15 PM
Quote from: MU82 on June 24, 2023, 05:25:06 PM
Would be MSNBC's highest-rated show ever!

As exciting and newsworthy as when Geraldo Rivera opened Al Capone's vault!
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: lurch91 on June 25, 2023, 07:43:27 AM
Putin wanted the empire of a Czar, he almost ended up last Russia's last Czar.  There's a fine line to tread here for Putin going forward, if "Putin's Chef", and long time "friend", can run him out of Moscow he may be his most vulnerable ever.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on June 25, 2023, 07:57:10 AM
I think if there is one narrative that has been blown out of the water over the last 18 months is that Putin is some sort of strategic genius.  This entire episode has been an enormous blunder to the point where even Russia's central Asian allies like Armenia were distancing themselves from him yesterday, not to mention that another NATO country is right on their border and Ukraine will be allied to the west for good.

Russia is a well-resourced, educated society. Instead of leveraging those resources to gain influence a la the United States, China, etc., they tried bullying the old fashioned way - and was a disaster that will take them generations to recover from.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Uncle Rico on June 25, 2023, 08:36:46 AM
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on June 25, 2023, 07:57:10 AM
I think if there is one narrative that has been blown out of the water over the last 18 months is that Putin is some sort of strategic genius.  This entire episode has been an enormous blunder to the point where even Russia's central Asian allies like Armenia were distancing themselves from him yesterday, not to mention that another NATO country is right on their border and Ukraine will be allied to the west for good.

Russia is a well-resourced, educated society. Instead of leveraging those resources to gain influence a la the United States, China, etc., they tried bullying the old fashioned way - and was a disaster that will take them generations to recover from.

This is the tragedy of the Russian people.  Centuries old going back to the Tsars.  The people are mere cannon fodder to the oligarchs.  Always have been
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: MuggsyB on June 25, 2023, 09:46:38 AM
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on June 25, 2023, 07:57:10 AM
I think if there is one narrative that has been blown out of the water over the last 18 months is that Putin is some sort of strategic genius.  This entire episode has been an enormous blunder to the point where even Russia's central Asian allies like Armenia were distancing themselves from him yesterday, not to mention that another NATO country is right on their border and Ukraine will be allied to the west for good.

Russia is a well-resourced, educated society. Instead of leveraging those resources to gain influence a la the United States, China, etc., they tried bullying the old fashioned way - and was a disaster that will take them generations to recover from.

The narrative that he is a popular leader there was also proven false.  Im worried the next phase will be a lot of chaos.  This is a turning point for sure but Putin will do anything to retain power.   Regardless, there are no good outcomes as far as future Russian leadership. 
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Scoop Snoop on June 25, 2023, 12:49:19 PM
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on June 25, 2023, 07:57:10 AM
I think if there is one narrative that has been blown out of the water over the last 18 months is that Putin is some sort of strategic genius.  This entire episode has been an enormous blunder to the point where even Russia's central Asian allies like Armenia were distancing themselves from him yesterday, not to mention that another NATO country is right on their border and Ukraine will be allied to the west for good.

Russia is a well-resourced, educated society. Instead of leveraging those resources to gain influence a la the United States, China, etc., they tried bullying the old fashioned way - and was a disaster that will take them generations to recover from.

Did you forget to add "savvy" between strategic and genius?  ;D

I have always been skeptical of Russia's willingness to join Europe as a partner rather than as a brutal, bullying and threatening force. When the Iron Curtain collapsed in '89-90, I was really hoping (but not expecting) to be proven wrong. As you pointed out, they have both the resources and an educated society, yet stubbornly continue to return to a MO that has failed.

I see no good coming out of the most recent events, and unlike apparently many here, I think this is far from over. Progozhin's decision to stop his advance on Moscow as very possibly strategic. Rather than "Russians fighting Russians", he may be trying to get some government military units to join with him. I really do not think for a moment that he has attained all his goals, whatever they are.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: tower912 on June 25, 2023, 12:59:30 PM
Agreed.  It isn't over.  The ripples and ramifications of this are going to be ongoing.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: lawdog77 on June 25, 2023, 01:12:20 PM
If I were Сергей Шойгу, I would be worried.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: pbiflyer on June 25, 2023, 01:35:02 PM
Russian military

2021: 2nd best army in the world
2022: 2nd best army in Ukraine
2023: 2nd best army in Russia
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on June 25, 2023, 01:43:06 PM
Quote from: pbiflyer on June 25, 2023, 01:35:02 PM
Russian military

2021: 2nd best army in the world
2022: 2nd best army in Ukraine
2023: 2nd best army in Russia

But I thought it was made up of the greatest of verile, many men? 
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: ChitownSpaceForRent on June 25, 2023, 02:09:36 PM
How they held off the Nazis in WWII is a minor miracle
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: tower912 on June 25, 2023, 02:11:14 PM
Weather.  Germany also fighting the Allies.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on June 25, 2023, 02:20:15 PM
Quote from: tower912 on June 25, 2023, 02:11:14 PM
Weather.  Germany also fighting the Allies.

Weather, the sheer size of the country, and lack of decent infrastructure.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: lurch91 on June 25, 2023, 03:53:53 PM
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on June 25, 2023, 02:20:15 PM
Weather, the sheer size of the country, and lack of decent infrastructure.

And having 27 million disposable souls.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Uncle Rico on June 25, 2023, 04:38:59 PM
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on June 25, 2023, 02:20:15 PM
Weather, the sheer size of the country, and lack of decent infrastructure.

Terrible decision making as well.  Methinks if the Wehrmacht had been in charge completely, results would have been vastly different
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 25, 2023, 06:05:46 PM
Quote from: MuggsyB on June 25, 2023, 09:46:38 AM
The narrative that he is a popular leader there was also proven false.  Im worried the next phase will be a lot of chaos.  This is a turning point for sure but Putin will do anything to retain power.   Regardless, there are no good outcomes as far as future Russian leadership.

If Russia is indeed a "well resourced and educated society"(and I believe it is) I think your conclusion (that there are no good outcomes as far as future Russian leadership is concerned) seems overly pessimistic. I can't believe that every potential leader in a well educated country is worse than Putin.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: pbiflyer on June 25, 2023, 06:07:35 PM
Quote from: lurch91 on June 25, 2023, 03:53:53 PM
And having 27 million disposable souls.

This, mainly this.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: warriorchick on June 25, 2023, 06:09:42 PM
Quote from: lurch91 on June 25, 2023, 07:43:27 AM
Putin wanted the empire of a Czar, he almost ended up as Russia's last next Czar. 

FIFY
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: MU82 on June 25, 2023, 06:18:49 PM
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on June 25, 2023, 02:20:15 PM
Weather, the sheer size of the country, and lack of decent infrastructure.

And a leader whose arrogance was similar to that of today's Russian leader.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: MuggsyB on June 25, 2023, 06:57:25 PM
Quote from: MU82 on June 25, 2023, 06:18:49 PM
And a leader whose arrogance was similar to that of today's Russian leader.

It's unfathomable to think about the amount of death Hitler/Stalin/Mao were responsible for.  And the fact that there was a Cold War, which essentially began in 1917, should have been terminated immediately in 1945 or by 1950.  Winston foresaw everything. 
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on June 25, 2023, 07:03:03 PM
Quote from: MuggsyB on June 25, 2023, 06:57:25 PM
It's unfathomable to think about the amount of death Hitler/Stalin/Mao were responsible for.  And the fact that there was a Cold War, which essentially began in 1917, should have been terminated immediately in 1945 or by 1950.  Winston foresaw everything. 


That would not have been very smart. The west won eventually through its economic might - and continues to win even now.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: MuggsyB on June 25, 2023, 07:15:41 PM
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on June 25, 2023, 07:03:03 PM

That would not have been very smart. The west won eventually through its economic might - and continues to win even now.

Say that to those who were slaughtered in the Gulags, Cultural Revolution, or in Cambodia.   We could have won much earlier.  We also could have stopped the Holocaust and knew what was happening. 
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on June 25, 2023, 07:18:01 PM
Quote from: MuggsyB on June 25, 2023, 07:15:41 PM
Say that to those who died I'm the Cultural Revolution or in Cambodia.   We could have won much earlier. 

How? By invading Russia and China? By dropping nukes all over the place?

I'm unconvinced (to put it lightly) that killing a bunch of people to save them from dying another way would have been an effective foreign policy strategy.  Not to mention that it would have been a political non-starter.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Uncle Rico on June 25, 2023, 07:39:39 PM
Quote from: MuggsyB on June 25, 2023, 07:15:41 PM
Say that to those who were slaughtered in the Gulags, Cultural Revolution, or in Cambodia.   We could have won much earlier.  We also could have stopped the Holocaust and knew what was happening.

That's not realpolitik. 

WWII was exhausting to all Americans and costly on every front.  The idea we'd just roll along to take on the Soviets doesn't match the reality of what was the situation.

When the European war ended, America was still fighting in the Pacific.  Secondly, the idea of America the aggressor in September of 1945 against who was their ally in the war?  That's incredibly naive to think that was something that could happen.

There's no way to know what would have happened had America marched to Moscow.  What you can do is, understand the history of the Cold War and how it was mutually beneficial to both antagonists.  American history in the Cold War isn't peaches and cream when it comes to how we handled ourselves abroad.

As for stopping the Holocaust, America was in no position militarily to do anything about it.  Any attempt at war with Germany prior to our entry would have been futile
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: MuggsyB on June 25, 2023, 08:05:27 PM
We'll agree to disagree.  Roosevelt knew what was happening and we should have tried to thwart Nazi aggression as early at '38. 
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: tower912 on June 25, 2023, 08:09:46 PM
Yes.  But there was a huge isolationist streak both in congress and among the citizenry.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: MuggsyB on June 25, 2023, 08:14:55 PM
Quote from: tower912 on June 25, 2023, 08:09:46 PM
Yes.  But there was a huge isolationist streak both in congress and among the citizenry.

And it contributed to mass genocide. 
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Uncle Rico on June 25, 2023, 08:15:16 PM
Quote from: MuggsyB on June 25, 2023, 08:05:27 PM
We'll agree to disagree.  Roosevelt knew what was happening and we should have tried to thwart Nazi aggression as early at '38.

How?  He didn't have the political support or the public support.  There was a pro-German faction in the nation and you have prominent Americans like Lindbergh preaching non-intervention. It's not as simple as FDR saying go to war over crimes against humanity.  In fact, we might be ashamed at how some might have reacted to going to war over it
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Uncle Rico on June 25, 2023, 08:18:48 PM
Quote from: MuggsyB on June 25, 2023, 08:14:55 PM
And it contributed to mass genocide.

So did the Treaty of Westphalia, colonialism, WWI, the India-Pakistan split and on and on.

Revising history doesn't change history.  One action doesn't equal just x
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: tower912 on June 25, 2023, 08:20:37 PM
 ::)
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on June 25, 2023, 08:22:53 PM
Quote from: MuggsyB on June 25, 2023, 08:05:27 PM
We'll agree to disagree.  Roosevelt knew what was happening and we should have tried to thwart Nazi aggression as early at '38. 

1938? Before Germany even invaded Poland? Even the UK and France didn't get involved then.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: MuggsyB on June 25, 2023, 08:23:30 PM
Quote from: Uncle Rico on June 25, 2023, 08:18:48 PM
So did the Treaty of Westphalia, colonialism, WWI, the India-Pakistan split and on and on.

Revising history doesn't change history.  One action doesn't equal just x

The T of W is not analogous to the world close to 300 years later.and what could have been done imo.  We fked up Versailles as well with the "Dawes Plan".  Absolutely idiotic. 
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Uncle Rico on June 25, 2023, 08:26:21 PM
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on June 25, 2023, 08:22:53 PM
1938? Before Germany even invaded Poland? Even the UK and France didn't get involved then.

I mean, there were plenty of opportunities to do so before then. 

America was in no position either way.  We'd have been routed in any attempt.  People don't understand how vulnerable we were militarily at that time from a manpower and equipment standpoint.  December 7th changed it all.  The ramp up to becoming an effective fighting force is one of the most incredible feats in human history.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Uncle Rico on June 25, 2023, 08:27:02 PM
Quote from: MuggsyB on June 25, 2023, 08:23:30 PM
The T of W is not analogous to the world close to 300 years later.and what could have been done imo.  We fked up Versailles as well with the "Dawes Plan".  Absolutely idiotic.

Every action in European history lead up to WWII, so 🤷🏼‍♂️
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: reinko on June 25, 2023, 08:29:47 PM
Quote from: MuggsyB on June 25, 2023, 08:05:27 PM
We'll agree to disagree.  Roosevelt knew what was happening and we should have tried to thwart Nazi aggression as early at '38.

MMQB a world war and matter a factly stating a world leader "knew" something and didn't act is certainly an interesting tact
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: tower912 on June 25, 2023, 08:30:57 PM
Muggsy gotta Muggsy.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on June 25, 2023, 08:31:29 PM
Quote from: MuggsyB on June 25, 2023, 08:23:30 PM
The T of W is not analogous to the world close to 300 years later.and what could have been done imo.  We fked up Versailles as well with the "Dawes Plan".  Absolutely idiotic. 

The "what if Franz Ferdinand wasn't assasinated" may be the most interesting in history. WW1 was one nobody really wanted but were dragged into. Kinda think the nationalistic movements in Austria-Hungary could have been managed diplomatically instead. Similar to how the Hungarian question was addressed.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: MuggsyB on June 25, 2023, 08:31:39 PM
We've allowed all sorts of slaughtering well after WW2 and even Cambodia. See the continent of Africa.  Totally inexcusable. 
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Uncle Rico on June 25, 2023, 08:38:05 PM
Quote from: MuggsyB on June 25, 2023, 08:31:39 PM
We've allowed all sorts of slaughtering well after WW2 and even Cambodia. See the continent of Africa.  Totally inexcusable.

We've?  We?  How has America done as the world's policeman overall?

It's not that simple to just throw troops at a situation.  It's not even that simple to use economic leverage in these situations.

Your heart is in a good place and I understand the frustration but American intervention isn't always the answer
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on June 25, 2023, 08:54:17 PM
The West wasn't Won until Zeppelin played the Forum in '72.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Scoop Snoop on June 25, 2023, 10:27:00 PM
Quote from: MuggsyB on June 25, 2023, 08:23:30 PM
The T of W is not analogous to the world close to 300 years later.and what could have been done imo.  We fked up Versailles as well with the "Dawes Plan".  Absolutely idiotic.

Muggs, love your enthusiasm for MU bball, but your absolute cluelessness regarding history is simply mind boggling.

Find a respected history professor or authors who have carefully and professionally researched the subjects of their books and have takes even remotely near yours. Then I will listen and take your version of history seriously. I am not a professional historian but have read stacks of history related books over many years. Nothing I have ever read comes remotely close to your theories and narratives.

All you have accomplished here is to derail this thread. Starting with a post of yours, there are now 22 posts that have nothing to do with the thread started by Tower.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: WarriorFan on June 25, 2023, 11:31:28 PM
Now that I no longer live in Russia and have all my assets out it's ok to comment.

1.  Putin is drunk on power like many long term autocrats such as Pinochet, Soeharto, Mahatir, Pol Pot, etc.
2.  Most Russians still think the devil you know is better than the devil you don't
3.  None of the immediate successors would be better or more stable than Putin.  Prigozhin is a criminal through and through, and is always available to the highest bidder.
4.  As much as the west likes to blame them, the Oligarchs are not to blame in this case.  That would be the equivalent of the US citizenry and press asking Musk, Buffet, Bezos, Ellison and Gates to overthrow the US president.  Regardless of how they gained their companies and their positions, these guys are now businessmen.  Most were the smartest guy in the room when it was there for the taking, and they now run some serious companies. 
5.  No-one in Russia today is strong enough to take down Putin.  It will take more mistakes by Putin PLUS a series of external and internal "events".  It would also take any individual or political party many years to usurp Putin... if they survive.  The level of checks and balances in place to maintain the power structure is unreal. 

Don't take any of this please as pro-Putin.  Russia is a great country with great people.  The 2nd most patriotic country I've ever experienced.  Putin is no longer Russia and Russia never was Putin.  Putin has invaded a sovereign state and this sort of action must never be tolerated, no matter where or by whom.

The end game hasn't even started, and will take a long time to unveil. 

Word to the wise:  Watch China's role in all this. 
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Scoop Snoop on June 26, 2023, 05:53:09 AM
Wow! Fascinating post WarriorFan. Your last sentence is chilling, but I think it will prove to be true.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: StillAWarrior on June 26, 2023, 08:06:25 AM
Prigozhin is probably going to want to hire a food taster and stay away from windows. I've got to imagine his days are numbered. You come at the king, you best not miss.

Quote from: WarriorFan on June 25, 2023, 11:31:28 PM
Don't take any of this please as pro-Putin.

Ditto.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: pbiflyer on June 26, 2023, 08:46:51 AM
Quote from: WarriorFan on June 25, 2023, 11:31:28 PM
Now that I no longer live in Russia and have all my assets out it's ok to comment.

1.  Putin is drunk on power like many long term autocrats such as Pinochet, Soeharto, Mahatir, Pol Pot, etc.
2.  Most Russians still think the devil you know is better than the devil you don't
3.  None of the immediate successors would be better or more stable than Putin.  Prigozhin is a criminal through and through, and is always available to the highest bidder.
4.  As much as the west likes to blame them, the Oligarchs are not to blame in this case.  That would be the equivalent of the US citizenry and press asking Musk, Buffet, Bezos, Ellison and Gates to overthrow the US president.  Regardless of how they gained their companies and their positions, these guys are now businessmen.  Most were the smartest guy in the room when it was there for the taking, and they now run some serious companies. 
5.  No-one in Russia today is strong enough to take down Putin.  It will take more mistakes by Putin PLUS a series of external and internal "events".  It would also take any individual or political party many years to usurp Putin... if they survive.  The level of checks and balances in place to maintain the power structure is unreal. 

Don't take any of this please as pro-Putin.  Russia is a great country with great people.  The 2nd most patriotic country I've ever experienced.  Putin is no longer Russia and Russia never was Putin.  Putin has invaded a sovereign state and this sort of action must never be tolerated, no matter where or by whom.

The end game hasn't even started, and will take a long time to unveil. 

Word to the wise:  Watch China's role in all this.

I am pretty sure that well thought out, fact laden posts are a TOS violation at scoop.  ;D

(Seriously, thanks for insight unavailable to the average person. This is better analysis than most, if not all the talking heads I have heard)

On another aspect of this whole mess, I don't understand the drive for money and power when these people (Putin, Wagner guy, et. al.) spend most of their waking time looking over the shoulder.  All the money in the world, but no freedom. Sounds like an awful life.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Uncle Rico on June 26, 2023, 09:12:25 AM
Quote from: WarriorFan on June 25, 2023, 11:31:28 PM
Now that I no longer live in Russia and have all my assets out it's ok to comment.

1.  Putin is drunk on power like many long term autocrats such as Pinochet, Soeharto, Mahatir, Pol Pot, etc.
2.  Most Russians still think the devil you know is better than the devil you don't
3.  None of the immediate successors would be better or more stable than Putin.  Prigozhin is a criminal through and through, and is always available to the highest bidder.
4.  As much as the west likes to blame them, the Oligarchs are not to blame in this case.  That would be the equivalent of the US citizenry and press asking Musk, Buffet, Bezos, Ellison and Gates to overthrow the US president.  Regardless of how they gained their companies and their positions, these guys are now businessmen.  Most were the smartest guy in the room when it was there for the taking, and they now run some serious companies. 
5.  No-one in Russia today is strong enough to take down Putin.  It will take more mistakes by Putin PLUS a series of external and internal "events".  It would also take any individual or political party many years to usurp Putin... if they survive.  The level of checks and balances in place to maintain the power structure is unreal. 

Don't take any of this please as pro-Putin.  Russia is a great country with great people.  The 2nd most patriotic country I've ever experienced.  Putin is no longer Russia and Russia never was Putin.  Putin has invaded a sovereign state and this sort of action must never be tolerated, no matter where or by whom.

The end game hasn't even started, and will take a long time to unveil. 

Word to the wise:  Watch China's role in all this.

Number 2 is a really important point.

Western society looks at Russia and asks how Putin holds on, this is a good answer.  This goes back to the Tsars.  They knew that devil, not the new devil that replaced them but once the communists took over, they quickly adopted the new devil.  It's a certain tragic flaw of Russians. 

I think it's incomprehensible for many Americans to understand this mindset.  It clouds our judgement in understanding foreign relations and diplomacy.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: 4everwarriors on June 26, 2023, 09:21:40 AM
Crean sucks
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Coleman on June 26, 2023, 09:25:37 AM
Not sure how this morphed into a World War II alternate history thread.

Russia will end up being a vassal state of China. It is all but inevitable at this point. China has a vested interest in maintaining regional stability and any threat to that will be dealt with immediately. Whether that includes Putin as its figurehead remains to be seen, China will likely support whoever is most likely to maintain stability and whoever is most economically advantageous to them. It would not surprise me in the least if they were involved behind the scenes in quelling this rebellion. Lukashenko has no real power....he is a Putin puppet. Prigozhin did not turn around for no reason. It would not surprise me if he got word that China was going to support Putin in the event of any rebellion. That would be game over for him. Putin is evil but somewhat predictable, and the Chinese know they can work with him. Prigozhin is a true wild card, and his hand on the nuclear button would cause major regional instability and bring nothing but headaches for Beijing.

China will also be the one to decide if/when Russia gives up this disastrous war in Ukraine. If Putin loses Chinese support, he's done.

The 2 biggest winners of the War in Ukraine have been NATO and China. Russia is now a third rate power.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on June 26, 2023, 10:54:55 AM
I'm not sure how Russia will become a "vasal state" of China when the former has a great deal of the resources the latter needs.

China has undoubtedly grown in influence, but that's Russia's own doing.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: WarriorFan on June 26, 2023, 11:31:59 AM
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on June 26, 2023, 10:54:55 AM
I'm not sure how Russia will become a "vasal state" of China when the former has a great deal of the resources the latter needs.
I'm also not sure "how" it will happen.  It could be economic, it could be military, it could be resource based.  I'm not sure when it will happen.  I believe it is the most likely outcome.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Coleman on June 26, 2023, 12:01:37 PM
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on June 26, 2023, 10:54:55 AM
I'm not sure how Russia will become a "vasal state" of China when the former has a great deal of the resources the latter needs.

China has undoubtedly grown in influence, but that's Russia's own doing.

Yes, but most of the world is refusing to buy these resouces, with the exception of China and India.

Russia needs China much, much more than China needs Russia.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: MuggsyB on June 26, 2023, 01:44:01 PM
Quote from: WarriorFan on June 25, 2023, 11:31:28 PM
Now that I no longer live in Russia and have all my assets out it's ok to comment.

1.  Putin is drunk on power like many long term autocrats such as Pinochet, Soeharto, Mahatir, Pol Pot, etc.
2.  Most Russians still think the devil you know is better than the devil you don't
3.  None of the immediate successors would be better or more stable than Putin.  Prigozhin is a criminal through and through, and is always available to the highest bidder.
4.  As much as the west likes to blame them, the Oligarchs are not to blame in this case.  That would be the equivalent of the US citizenry and press asking Musk, Buffet, Bezos, Ellison and Gates to overthrow the US president.  Regardless of how they gained their companies and their positions, these guys are now businessmen.  Most were the smartest guy in the room when it was there for the taking, and they now run some serious companies. 
5.  No-one in Russia today is strong enough to take down Putin.  It will take more mistakes by Putin PLUS a series of external and internal "events".  It would also take any individual or political party many years to usurp Putin... if they survive.  The level of checks and balances in place to maintain the power structure is unreal. 

Don't take any of this please as pro-Putin.  Russia is a great country with great people.  The 2nd most patriotic country I've ever experienced.  Putin is no longer Russia and Russia never was Putin.  Putin has invaded a sovereign state and this sort of action must never be tolerated, no matter where or by whom.

The end game hasn't even started, and will take a long time to unveil. 

Word to the wise:  Watch China's role in all this.

Thank you for your comments.   There's a lot to think about when it comes to China's potential role.  None of which is particularly good for the United States. 
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: dgies9156 on June 26, 2023, 01:50:51 PM
Quote from: Uncle Rico on June 25, 2023, 08:15:16 PM
How?  He didn't have the political support or the public support.  There was a pro-German faction in the nation and you have prominent Americans like Lindbergh preaching non-intervention. It's not as simple as FDR saying go to war over crimes against humanity.  In fact, we might be ashamed at how some might have reacted to going to war over it

Monday morning quarterbacks can look at the situation and make a different claim. But FDR, for better or worse, was sitting in the decision chair at the time.

One option would have been to bomb the concentration camps at Treblinka, Dachau and Auschwitz. The rail lines, the trains and the facilities that fed the Holocaust. Maybe that would have worked -- or maybe the Nazis would have rebuilt them. Plus, the B-17s and B-24s did not have the range to reach the camps without landing in Russia or Russian held territory. The US tried like all get out to negotiate landing rights for bombers after depositing their payloads on Germany. The Russians "sort of" agreed but made the process so painful that few bombers ended up landing in the east.

The camps were way too far east

Josef Stalin saw us as both an ally and a potential enemy.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: tower912 on June 26, 2023, 01:51:21 PM
Well played.


Edit... I liked it better when you stopped at 'Monday morning Q', dgies.     I thought it was brilliant commentary, some of your best.   
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: #UnleashSean on June 26, 2023, 02:30:11 PM
Quote from: dgies9156 on June 26, 2023, 01:50:51 PM


Josef Stalin saw us as both an ally and a potential enemy.

To be fair to Stalin, the US and UK literally had a plan to align with German forces after deposing Hitler, and attack the USSR.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 26, 2023, 02:52:04 PM
Quote from: #UnleashSean on June 26, 2023, 02:30:11 PM
To be fair to Stalin, the US and UK literally had a plan to align with German forces after deposing Hitler, and attack the USSR.

Too bad it never came to fruition.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: MUBurrow on June 26, 2023, 02:58:24 PM
Quote from: dgies9156 on June 26, 2023, 01:50:51 PM
One option would have been to bomb the concentration camps at Treblinka, Dachau and Auschwitz. The rail lines, the trains and the facilities that fed the Holocaust. Maybe that would have worked -- or maybe the Nazis would have rebuilt them. Plus, the B-17s and B-24s did not have the range to reach the camps without landing in Russia or Russian held territory. The US tried like all get out to negotiate landing rights for bombers after depositing their payloads on Germany. The Russians "sort of" agreed but made the process so painful that few bombers ended up landing in the east.

There is a Secrets of the Dead episode that I've been meaning to watch that examines the debate among the US and British high command on whether to bomb Auschwitz.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Uncle Rico on June 26, 2023, 03:04:23 PM
Sort of like the idea of America immediately turning its back on an ally at the end of WWII and becoming the very thing they defeated.  Be the aggressor and extend American hegemony across the whole of Europe and into the Pacific.  Ramifications certainly would have been minimal in both the short term and long term.

The number of casualties would have been staggering unless we used the bomb beyond Japan, in this case, as a weapon of aggression.  Certainly wouldn't have been a long term problem.  Everything would be perfect in the world today, probably.

Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: MuggsyB on June 26, 2023, 03:31:25 PM
Quote from: dgies9156 on June 26, 2023, 01:50:51 PM
Monday morning quarterbacks can look at the situation and make a different claim. But FDR, for better or worse, was sitting in the decision chair at the time.

One option would have been to bomb the concentration camps at Treblinka, Dachau and Auschwitz. The rail lines, the trains and the facilities that fed the Holocaust. Maybe that would have worked -- or maybe the Nazis would have rebuilt them. Plus, the B-17s and B-24s did not have the range to reach the camps without landing in Russia or Russian held territory. The US tried like all get out to negotiate landing rights for bombers after depositing their payloads on Germany. The Russians "sort of" agreed but made the process so painful that few bombers ended up landing in the east.

The camps were way too far east

Josef Stalin saw us as both an ally and a potential enemy.

There's plenty of literature about FDR's tepid response to the concentration camps and that he knew full well what was going on.  Including meeting with Jews that got out.  He never felt strongly about it from many of the things I've read.  And frankly we as a nation contributed to it because there was virulent antisemitism at the time.  It's also worth noting that antisemitism is as bad today worldwide as it's been since WW2.  Roosevelt essentially didn't say one word about these camps until years after he knew and all the murder took place.   Imo we have a moral responsibility to prevent such mass killing of innocent people.  And what have we done since??  Even after Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot?  Nothing.  We absolutely could and should have stopped what happened in Rwanda and Sierra Leone for starters.   Inexcusable. 
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on June 26, 2023, 03:46:41 PM
FDR of course knew about the camps. His long held belief, rightly or wrongly, was that the best way the United State could provide relief was to defeat Germany in the war. He established the War Refugee Board too late after pressure on a number of fronts, but it was effective for the short time it was in existence. 
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on June 26, 2023, 06:30:35 PM
Kari Lake Declares Herself New Leader of the Wagner Group

PHOENIX (The Borowitz Report)—The situation in Russia descended into further uncertainty after Kari Lake stunned geopolitical experts by declaring herself the new leader of the Wagner Group.

Speaking from the mercenary force's new headquarters in Phoenix, Arizona, the former anchorwoman claimed that she won the leadership of Wagner by a landslide.

She warned Russian state media against questioning her claim to the Wagner helm. "I will be your worst frickin' nightmare," she said.

Wagner troops expressed surprise at Lake's sudden elevation and reservations about whether she would be an improvement over their former leader, Yevgeny Prigozhin. "She seems really mean," one said.

https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/kari-lake-declares-herself-new-leader-of-the-wagner-group
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: MuggsyB on June 26, 2023, 06:39:52 PM
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on June 26, 2023, 06:30:35 PM
Kari Lake Declares Herself New Leader of the Wagner Group

PHOENIX (The Borowitz Report)—The situation in Russia descended into further uncertainty after Kari Lake stunned geopolitical experts by declaring herself the new leader of the Wagner Group.

Speaking from the mercenary force's new headquarters in Phoenix, Arizona, the former anchorwoman claimed that she won the leadership of Wagner by a landslide.

She warned Russian state media against questioning her claim to the Wagner helm. "I will be your worst frickin' nightmare," she said.

Wagner troops expressed surprise at Lake's sudden elevation and reservations about whether she would be an improvement over their former leader, Yevgeny Prigozhin. "She seems really mean," one said.

https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/kari-lake-declares-herself-new-leader-of-the-wagner-group

W
T
F
?
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: tower912 on June 26, 2023, 07:14:14 PM
Look at the link. 

It

Is

Satire
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: MuggsyB on June 26, 2023, 07:20:05 PM
Quote from: tower912 on June 26, 2023, 07:14:14 PM
Look at the link. 

It

Is

Satire

Oh...okay. 
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 26, 2023, 07:37:41 PM
Quote from: tower912 on June 26, 2023, 07:14:14 PM
Look at the link. 

It

Is

Satire

Isn't

Satire

Supposed

To

Be

Funny?
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: tower912 on June 26, 2023, 07:38:59 PM
Humor, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.   I miss the good old days when you could laugh.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Uncle Rico on June 26, 2023, 07:45:31 PM
Quote from: tower912 on June 26, 2023, 07:38:59 PM
Humor, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.   I miss the good old days when you could laugh.

Everyone should laugh at Kari Lake
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 26, 2023, 08:20:04 PM
Quote from: tower912 on June 26, 2023, 07:38:59 PM
Humor, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.   I miss the good old days when you could laugh.

Very true, my friend. But I still laugh all the time at things that are funny. Just today I literally laughed out loud recalling your story of driving in a car alone and wearing a mask to ward off Covid. Now THAT was funny. And original.

Sometimes Rico is funny and original, just not as often as he used to be. I miss those good old days.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: tower912 on June 26, 2023, 08:23:18 PM
The story was I was going to wear a mask while driving to inspire road rage.   I liked that one.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on June 26, 2023, 08:49:28 PM
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 26, 2023, 07:37:41 PM
Isn't

Satire

Supposed

To

Be

Funny?
Right. We shouldn't laugh at Kari Lake. Check.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: WarriorFan on June 26, 2023, 09:33:34 PM
Quote from: Coleman on June 26, 2023, 12:01:37 PM
Yes, but most of the world is refusing to buy these resouces, with the exception of China and India.

Russia needs China much, much more than China needs Russia.

I will respectfully disagree.  Russian coal production has barely dropped... it's all getting consumed somewhere.  Lots gets "washed" when combined with other cargoes.  Same for oil.  Russian oil is getting mixed with other sources and/ or refined in places that then sell it to the global market.  Read about what's happening with Gold in UAE.  Diamonds from Russia are sold on friendly markets or "washed" into global markets and production has not dropped much. 

China has a very limited supply of water, oil, gas, skilled people, tillable land, forest products, iron ore, phosphate (for fertilizer) and copper.  Their coal and metals mines are ridiculously inefficient and very high cost which is why they buy so much production from offshore.  China needs a lot of what Russia has, and is working slowly and carefully to gain control of Russian production.  Check out how many hectares of Russian forest is already owned by Chinese companies.

Prior to the war it had been harder for China to exert economic influence over Russia the way they have over African countries.  Now the control structures in Russia are weaker and the need for buyers is stronger.  The Chinese are coming in and spreading lots of money around.  It's clear what they want to happen next - they want to own the government the same way they own Ziimbabwe or DRC.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 26, 2023, 09:35:37 PM
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on June 26, 2023, 08:49:28 PM
Right. We shouldn't laugh at Kari Lake. Check.

Kari Lake, you, me and everyone can be the butt of jokes. I just like my jokes funny. You don't care as long as the butt of the joke is someone you don't like.

So which of us has a sense of humor?

Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on June 26, 2023, 09:58:21 PM
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 26, 2023, 09:35:37 PM
Kari Lake, you, me and everyone can be the butt of jokes. I just like my jokes funny. You don't care as long as the butt of the joke is someone you don't like.

So which of us has a sense of humor?
My apologies. I'll stick to the "<insert exotic animal> is delicious" formula that the underboard finds the height of humor even on the 403rd iteration.

If Lenny doesn't find it funny, no one finds it funny.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on June 26, 2023, 10:23:32 PM
Quote from: tower912 on June 26, 2023, 07:14:14 PM
Look at the link. 

It

Is

Satire

Only because the new Yorker URL told you it was humor.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 26, 2023, 10:37:57 PM
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on June 26, 2023, 09:58:21 PM
My apologies. I'll stick to the "<insert exotic animal> is delicious" formula that the underboard finds the height of humor even on the 403rd iteration.


I have no idea what you're talking about but it sure doesn't sound funny. At least the way you're telling it.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: tower912 on June 27, 2023, 05:48:57 AM
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on June 26, 2023, 10:23:32 PM
Only because the new Yorker URL told you it was humor.
Please.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: tower912 on June 27, 2023, 03:12:15 PM
Reports that the Putin Prigozhin truce is already showing signs of crumbling.

What?  Putin holds a grudge and goes back on a deal as soon as he no longer feels threatened?  Strong, brilliant leader.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: real chili 83 on June 27, 2023, 06:48:13 PM
Quote from: WarriorFan on June 25, 2023, 11:31:28 PM
Now that I no longer live in Russia and have all my assets out it's ok to comment.

1.  Putin is drunk on power like many long term autocrats such as Pinochet, Soeharto, Mahatir, Pol Pot, etc.
2.  Most Russians still think the devil you know is better than the devil you don't
3.  None of the immediate successors would be better or more stable than Putin.  Prigozhin is a criminal through and through, and is always available to the highest bidder.
4.  As much as the west likes to blame them, the Oligarchs are not to blame in this case.  That would be the equivalent of the US citizenry and press asking Musk, Buffet, Bezos, Ellison and Gates to overthrow the US president.  Regardless of how they gained their companies and their positions, these guys are now businessmen.  Most were the smartest guy in the room when it was there for the taking, and they now run some serious companies. 
5.  No-one in Russia today is strong enough to take down Putin.  It will take more mistakes by Putin PLUS a series of external and internal "events".  It would also take any individual or political party many years to usurp Putin... if they survive.  The level of checks and balances in place to maintain the power structure is unreal. 

Don't take any of this please as pro-Putin.  Russia is a great country with great people.  The 2nd most patriotic country I've ever experienced.  Putin is no longer Russia and Russia never was Putin.  Putin has invaded a sovereign state and this sort of action must never be tolerated, no matter where or by whom.

The end game hasn't even started, and will take a long time to unveil. 

Word to the wise:  Watch China's role in all this.

So, you're saying the KGB reads scoop.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: tower912 on June 27, 2023, 06:51:19 PM
Quote from: real chili 83 on June 27, 2023, 06:48:13 PM
So, you're saying the KGB reads scoop.
Poor bastards.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on June 27, 2023, 08:19:51 PM
Quote from: real chili 83 on June 27, 2023, 06:48:13 PM
So, you're saying the KGB reads scoop.

The Hauser letter was really a KGB plot.

Buzz was just avoiding KGB listening devices with aids flushing the toilet.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: WarriorFan on June 27, 2023, 10:24:44 PM
Quote from: real chili 83 on June 27, 2023, 06:48:13 PM
So, you're saying the KGB reads scoop.
I'm sure they miss it now that I'm not using a Russian IP address.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: lawdog77 on June 28, 2023, 05:03:06 AM
Quote from: WarriorFan on June 27, 2023, 10:24:44 PM
I'm sure they miss it now that I'm not using a Russian IP address.
Are you the infamous UGG dealer?
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: WarriorFan on June 28, 2023, 07:53:03 AM
Quote from: lawdog77 on June 28, 2023, 05:03:06 AM
Are you the infamous UGG dealer?

нет
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: lawdog77 on June 28, 2023, 08:35:15 AM
Quote from: WarriorFan on June 28, 2023, 07:53:03 AM
нет
жаль, я хотел пару
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: pbiflyer on June 28, 2023, 11:00:10 AM
Quote from: real chili 83 on June 27, 2023, 06:48:13 PM
So, you're saying the KGB reads scoop.
So, he invaded Ukraine in search of an arby's?
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: CreightonWarrior on June 28, 2023, 11:02:19 AM
Quote from: pbiflyer on June 28, 2023, 11:00:10 AM
So, he invaded Ukraine in search of an arby's?
Its the wagyu burger, can you blame him?
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: tower912 on July 10, 2023, 07:48:02 AM
Prigozhin and Putin met.   On June 29.   
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: 4everwarriors on July 11, 2023, 03:51:48 AM
Putin losin' da war in Iraq. God save da Queen, aina?

#Buffoon
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on July 11, 2023, 07:55:42 AM
Is he Sleepy? Or coked up? It's all so confusing.

Expanding NATO instead of dismantling like Putin ordered, infrastructure projects underway, CHIPs act, bipartisan agreement on the debt ceiling, unemployment at 3.7%, GDP expanding, inflation plummeting*.

Imagine what he could do if he wasn't so old, infirm, and senile.



* Although Goose will tell you the government is lying just like China's government lies.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on July 11, 2023, 08:01:47 AM
Yeah, Biden has run circles around Putin. Of course, that's mostly due to Putin stepping on a garden rake, but Sweden and Finland will be in NATO, the eastern European NATO members who were casting eyes upon Russia are now firmly entrenched, and reports are that Turkey may join the EU.  Oh and Ukraine be FIRMLY pro-Western for generations to come.

From a realpolitik point of view, Biden has recovered from the disaster that was the Afghanistan evacuation and has severely weakened a historic foe.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: JWags85 on July 11, 2023, 10:19:34 AM
Turkey joining the EU and moving towards stability in that regard may be the biggest impact of all of this IMO.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: jesmu84 on July 11, 2023, 12:36:45 PM
Are cluster bombs a war crime or not?
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Pakuni on July 11, 2023, 01:16:59 PM
Quote from: jesmu84 on July 11, 2023, 12:36:45 PM
Are cluster bombs a war crime or not?

Depends on whether you've signed on to the Convention on Cluster Munitions. The U.S., Russia and Ukraine have not.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on July 11, 2023, 01:21:43 PM
Quote from: jesmu84 on July 11, 2023, 12:36:45 PM
Are cluster bombs a war crime or not?

Depends on if it's 2022 or 2023.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Jockey on July 11, 2023, 01:29:44 PM
Quote from: jesmu84 on July 11, 2023, 12:36:45 PM
Are cluster bombs a war crime or not?

Does it depend on whether you are the aggressor or whether you are defending your land.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: jesmu84 on July 11, 2023, 02:01:39 PM
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on July 11, 2023, 01:21:43 PM
Depends on if it's 2022 or 2023.

Yup
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: jesmu84 on July 11, 2023, 02:01:55 PM
Quote from: Jockey on July 11, 2023, 01:29:44 PM
Does it depend on whether you are the aggressor or whether you are defending your land.

It shouldn't.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: NCMUFan on July 11, 2023, 04:02:32 PM
Be nice to the invaders.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Coleman on July 11, 2023, 04:39:45 PM
Quote from: jesmu84 on July 11, 2023, 12:36:45 PM
Are cluster bombs a war crime or not?

I am of the opinion that sometimes merely the use of a certain weapon is not enough to determine whether a war crime has been committed. How it is used is also important.

Some weapons like biological or chemical weapons are always off limits.

But I think there are legitimate defensive uses for cluster munitions. The primary risk is undetonated munitions to civilians on the territory they are being used. If this is a risk Ukraine is willing to take to defend their territory, I am comfortable with the decision.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on July 11, 2023, 08:12:55 PM
Quote from: Coleman on July 11, 2023, 04:39:45 PM
I am of the opinion that sometimes merely the use of a certain weapon is not enough to determine whether a war crime has been committed. How it is used is also important.

Some weapons like biological or chemical weapons are always off limits.

But I think there are legitimate defensive uses for cluster munitions. The primary risk is undetonated munitions to civilians on the territory they are being used. If this is a risk Ukraine is willing to take to defend their territory, I am comfortable with the decision.

Apparently the ones the US are sending have a very low dud percentage which is a good thing.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Coleman on July 12, 2023, 08:23:43 AM
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on July 11, 2023, 08:12:55 PM
Apparently the ones the US are sending have a very low dud percentage which is a good thing.

Agreed. Dud percentage has decreased significantly since these weapons were used extensively in the Vietnam War.

While ideals are important, war is full of bad decisions. The pragmatic view is that these weapons are already being used on Ukrainian territory by Russians. If Ukraine wants them, I think it is justifiable for them to use them too.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on July 12, 2023, 08:32:16 AM
Quote from: Coleman on July 12, 2023, 08:23:43 AM
Agreed. Dud percentage has decreased significantly since these weapons were used extensively in the Vietnam War.

While ideals are important, war is full of bad decisions. The pragmatic view is that these weapons are already being used on Ukrainian territory by Russians. If Ukraine wants them, I think it is justifiable for them to use them too.

One doesn't need to look any further than the use of nuclear weapons in WWII. It was an absolutely horrible thing to do...but I don't really know what the alternative could have been.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Hards Alumni on July 12, 2023, 12:55:40 PM
Quote from: jesmu84 on July 11, 2023, 12:36:45 PM
Are cluster bombs a war crime or not?

Eh, both sides were already using them.  It's their land and should be their decision.

They're terrible weapons though.

But so are land mines, and those are somehow okay.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Spaniel with a Short Tail on July 13, 2023, 09:19:21 AM
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on July 11, 2023, 08:01:47 AM
Yeah, Biden has run circles around Putin. Of course, that's mostly due to Putin stepping on a garden rake, but Sweden and Finland will be in NATO, the eastern European NATO members who were casting eyes upon Russia are now firmly entrenched, and reports are that Turkey may join the EU.  Oh and Ukraine be FIRMLY pro-Western for generations to come.

From a realpolitik point of view, Biden has recovered from the disaster that was the Afghanistan evacuation and has severely weakened a historic foe.


(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PeacefulMerryAuklet-max-1mb.gif)
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: tower912 on July 17, 2023, 06:32:19 AM
Russia no longer allowing Ukraine to ship grain.

One more inflationary pressure.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: #UnleashSean on July 17, 2023, 09:16:09 AM
Quote from: tower912 on July 17, 2023, 06:32:19 AM
Russia no longer allowing Ukraine to ship grain.

One more inflationary pressure.

Well see if Russia is able to actually stop that with Turkey's involvement.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on July 17, 2023, 09:16:17 AM
Quote from: tower912 on July 17, 2023, 06:32:19 AM
Russia no longer allowing Ukraine to ship grain.

One more inflationary pressure.
"What has Putin ever done to you?" -- Tuckems
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on July 17, 2023, 09:18:29 AM
Quote from: #UnleashSean on July 17, 2023, 09:16:09 AM
Well see if Russia is able to actually stop that with Turkey's involvement.

I was going to type similar.  Turkey stated last week they would ensure grain shipments would safely cross the Black Sea.  I think I also read the biggest beneficiary of Ukraine grain shipments is China which severely further neuters anything Russia might try.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on August 23, 2023, 01:26:55 PM
Well, this is certainly a surprise:

Yevgeny Prigozhin in fatal plane crash, Russian officials say
Ten die on flight from Moscow to St Petersburg, according to emergency ministry
https://www.ft.com/content/812c9da3-80f2-4fe1-8fad-0b4441d1977a

"If confirmed, Prigozhin's death would mark a spectacular end to the warlord's meteoric career nearly a year and a half into president Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine, two months after he led his paramilitary force on a historic, abortive mutiny march on Moscow.

A post by Grey Zone, a Wagner-connected social media channel, claimed that Russian anti-aircraft defences had shot down the plane in the Tver region near the village of Kuzhenkino.

It said that residents heard "two bursts of characteristic air defence fire" before the fall of the plane, "and this is confirmed by inversion traces in the sky in one of the videos", it said, adding that the information was preliminary."

Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on June 24, 2023, 04:35:40 PM
Did not see "call off coup against murderous dictator half-way through" coming.

Surely Putin won't hold a grudge, will he?
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Pakuni on August 23, 2023, 01:29:50 PM
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on August 23, 2023, 01:26:55 PM
Well, this is certainly a surprise:

Yevgeny Prigozhin in fatal plane crash, Russian officials say
Ten die on flight from Moscow to St Petersburg, according to emergency ministry
https://www.ft.com/content/812c9da3-80f2-4fe1-8fad-0b4441d1977a

There were no windows available for him to fall out of?
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: JWags85 on August 23, 2023, 01:43:11 PM
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on August 23, 2023, 01:26:55 PM
Well, this is certainly a surprise:

Yevgeny Prigozhin in fatal plane crash, Russian officials say
Ten die on flight from Moscow to St Petersburg, according to emergency ministry
https://www.ft.com/content/812c9da3-80f2-4fe1-8fad-0b4441d1977a

"If confirmed, Prigozhin's death would mark a spectacular end to the warlord's meteoric career nearly a year and a half into president Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine, two months after he led his paramilitary force on a historic, abortive mutiny march on Moscow.

A post by Grey Zone, a Wagner-connected social media channel, claimed that Russian anti-aircraft defences had shot down the plane in the Tver region near the village of Kuzhenkino.

It said that residents heard "two bursts of characteristic air defence fire" before the fall of the plane, "and this is confirmed by inversion traces in the sky in one of the videos", it said, adding that the information was preliminary."

That Prigozhin was still traveling by jet within Russia is certainly a choice.

Quote from: Pakuni on August 23, 2023, 01:29:50 PM
There were no windows available for him to fall out of?

Ive always respected those who support Russia and wanting to go back to a former golden age would be aligned with the comeback of good old historical tradition of defenestration
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on August 23, 2023, 01:47:15 PM
Quote from: JWags85 on August 23, 2023, 01:43:11 PM
That Prigozhin was still traveling by jet within Russia is certainly a choice.
I know, right? Fatal hubris.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: tower912 on August 23, 2023, 02:00:41 PM
Almost like a Vegas game of Clue.

I had 35-1 on being on a domesric flight that got shot down.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Jockey on August 23, 2023, 02:23:38 PM
Yup. We all knew it was only a matter of time. Putin kills his enemies.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Hards Alumni on August 23, 2023, 02:53:35 PM
So uh, is he like actually dead or just pretend dead?

There were the pictures that came out a few weeks ago of YP with disguises and false identification materials.

And anything that is officially released from Russia is impossible to confirm as accurate.

So, who really knows.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on August 23, 2023, 02:56:47 PM
Quote from: Hards Alumni on August 23, 2023, 02:53:35 PM
So uh, is he like actually dead or just pretend dead?

There were the pictures that came out a few weeks ago of YP with disguises and false identification materials.

And anything that is officially released from Russia is impossible to confirm as accurate.

So, who really knows.

Yeah, I don't think this guy was that dumb to be flying a personal jet registered to him over moscow.  A lot of speculation that he was just listed on the manifest but wasn't actually on the plane.

But if he was, FAFO.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Jockey on August 23, 2023, 03:28:32 PM
Quote from: Hards Alumni on August 23, 2023, 02:53:35 PM
So uh, is he like actually dead or just pretend dead?

There were the pictures that came out a few weeks ago of YP with disguises and false identification materials.

And anything that is officially released from Russia is impossible to confirm as accurate.

So, who really knows.

Hopefully he is dead. The 10s of millions of people who suffered at his hand certainly hope so.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Scoop Snoop on August 23, 2023, 03:58:33 PM
If he's alive, this time he will not stop his army enroute to Moscow. I was about to put this in teal but decided not to. Russians are simply too unpredictable to dismiss any scenario.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: RJax55 on August 23, 2023, 05:15:12 PM
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on August 23, 2023, 02:56:47 PM
Yeah, I don't think this guy was that dumb to be flying a personal jet registered to him over moscow.  A lot of speculation that he was just listed on the manifest but wasn't actually on the plane.

But if he was, FAFO.

He has been flying all around Russia since the mutiny. Back and forth from St. Petersburg to Belarus. Trips to Africa as well.

Hubris, I think is the correct assessment here. Today is exactly two months since the mutiny.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: GB Warrior on August 23, 2023, 06:58:30 PM
(https://cultishcreative.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/img_7208.jpg)
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on December 10, 2023, 07:38:22 AM
You shall know them by the company they keep.

Republicans to meet allies of Hungary's Viktor Orbán on ending Ukraine aid
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/republicans-to-meet-allies-of-hungary-s-viktor-orb%C3%A1n-on-ending-ukraine-aid/ar-AA1lhe1F?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=42dd91fdda4e42f0a946b61095b8df0c&ei=30

"Allies of Hungary's far-right prime minister Viktor Orbán will hold a closed-door meeting with Republicans in Washington to push for an end to US military support for Ukraine, the Guardian has learned.

Márton Ugrósdy, the deputy state secretary for the prime minister's political director's office, and Attila Demkó, a leading pro-Orbán academic, along with members of the Hungarian embassy in Washington, will on Monday begin a two-day event hosted by the conservative Heritage Foundation thinktank."

Should we side with muderous dictators, or a democracy fighting for its existance?
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on December 10, 2023, 07:55:56 AM
The right's obsession with Hungary is strange.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Jockey on December 10, 2023, 08:15:50 AM
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 10, 2023, 07:55:56 AM
The right's obsession with Hungary is strange.

Not really.

A right-wing dictator? Their dream scenario.
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: JWags85 on December 10, 2023, 09:22:58 AM
This thread was dormant and is now gonna get locked, we already have enough active threads where people throw daily bait bombs  ::)

Though a thread on Lorinc Mesazros would be hilarious.  Broke pipe fitter with a sinking company to billionaire in a couple years.  He's the childhood bestie of Orban? No no, unrelated coincidence
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 10, 2023, 09:34:00 AM
Quote from: JWags85 on December 10, 2023, 09:22:58 AM
This thread was dormant and is now gonna get locked, we already have enough active threads where people throw daily bait bombs  ::)

Though a thread on Lorinc Mesazros would be hilarious.  Broke pipe fitter with a sinking company to billionaire in a couple years.  He's the childhood bestie of Orban? No no, unrelated coincidence

Orban proclaiming Hungary a Christian nation and himself and ardent Christian and having his lapdogs in America eat it up is another great example of the sham of American Christianity and evangelicalism
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: panda on December 10, 2023, 10:42:43 AM
Did America win yet ?
Title: Re: The War in Russia
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on December 10, 2023, 11:27:36 AM
Quote from: panda on December 10, 2023, 10:42:43 AM
Did America win yet ?
Every day, actually
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