MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: tower912 on June 24, 2023, 08:24:34 AM
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Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Putin is still the bad guy in all of this. But I sure don't see a good guy.
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You pretty well covered it Tower. Russia could end up going from the frying pan into the fire when this all shakes out.
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The last time Russia got into a stupid war (Afghanistan), they ended up with Gorbachov and the start of the velvet revolution.
Putin may be the end of Russia as we know it.
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I think Putin's done. Apparently the Russian security forces aren't resisting as Wagner makes its way to Moscow.
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I think Putin's done. Apparently the Russian security forces aren't resisting as Wagner makes its way to Moscow.
At least he has Tucker on his side. He’s a kingmaker
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I’m not entirely sure this isn’t a psyop/false flag. Especially since allegedly Progozhin doesn’t have an issue with Putin, just his lead generals.
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Putin supposedly has fled Moscow.
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Possible. That would be some next level stuff. Have Wagner purge the ineffective generals and take over the war.
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Possible. That would be some next level stuff. Have Wagner purge the ineffective generals and take over the war.
I think the messaging would be a lot different. And I think Putin would realize that he is now beholden to someone else.
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I’m not entirely sure this isn’t a psyop/false flag. Especially since allegedly Progozhin doesn’t have an issue with Putin, just his lead generals.
Not ruling it out, but Progozhin has been stating that "Russia will soon have a new President".
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At least he has Tucker on his side. He’s a kingmaker
Seems the invasion of Ukraine wasn't actually "genius" and "savvy".
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I'm not sure that this is remotely a good thing.
Progozhin is even more of a warmonger. I wouldn't rule out him using tactical nukes or something like that.
Also, wouldn't rule out a false flag type psyops. Maybe Progozhin rebelling, seizes weaponry, unleashes tactical nukes on Ukraine, and then Putin takes him out saying he was a terrorist.
Don't see any good coming out of this. Hope I'm wrong.
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There is no good there.
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I'm not sure that this is remotely a good thing.
Progozhin is even more of a warmonger. I wouldn't rule out him using tactical nukes or something like that.
Also, wouldn't rule out a false flag type psyops. Maybe Progozhin rebelling, seizes weaponry, unleashes tactical nukes on Ukraine, and then Putin takes him out saying he was a terrorist.
Don't see any good coming out of this. Hope I'm wrong.
Putin was at least a rational actor. Until he wasn’t….
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Putin supposedly has fled Moscow.
Did he take the pee-pee tapes with him?
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I'm not sure that this is remotely a good thing.
Progozhin is even more of a warmonger. I wouldn't rule out him using tactical nukes or something like that.
Also, wouldn't rule out a false flag type psyops. Maybe Progozhin rebelling, seizes weaponry, unleashes tactical nukes on Ukraine, and then Putin takes him out saying he was a terrorist.
Don't see any good coming out of this. Hope I'm wrong.
This is my fear, Putin is crazy, Prigozhin might be crazier.
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There's some evidence Lukasenko may have fled Belarus. His plane landed in Turkey after flying over Russian airspace with the transponders off. He has not been sited in Turkey yet so it could be something else.
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Coup called off. It's too nice outside for a coup
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Did not see "call off coup against murderous dictator half-way through" coming.
Surely Putin won't hold a grudge, will he?
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This ceasefire is unequivocally a good thing as Prigozhin or anyone aligned with him would have been worse than Putin.
That said, my broken brain is disappointed that it ended so uneventfully
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Progozhin had better have a food taster and had better never go to an upper floor again.
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Did he take the pee-pee tapes with him?
He sent them to Adam Schiff. Big reveal on MSNBC tonight.
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He sent them to Adam Schiff. Big reveal on MSNBC tonight.
Would be MSNBC's highest-rated show ever!
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This ceasefire is unequivocally a good thing as Prigozhin or anyone aligned with him would have been worse than Putin.
That said, my broken brain is disappointed that it ended so uneventfully
Prigozhin organized his retirement plan. Dude is gonna be sitting on a massive pile of cash in Belarus.
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This ceasefire is unequivocally a good thing as Prigozhin or anyone aligned with him would have been worse than Putin.
That said, my broken brain is disappointed that it ended so uneventfully
You might think this is over...but I sure as Hell don't.
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Would be MSNBC's highest-rated show ever!
As exciting and newsworthy as when Geraldo Rivera opened Al Capone’s vault!
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Putin wanted the empire of a Czar, he almost ended up last Russia's last Czar. There's a fine line to tread here for Putin going forward, if "Putin's Chef", and long time "friend", can run him out of Moscow he may be his most vulnerable ever.
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I think if there is one narrative that has been blown out of the water over the last 18 months is that Putin is some sort of strategic genius. This entire episode has been an enormous blunder to the point where even Russia's central Asian allies like Armenia were distancing themselves from him yesterday, not to mention that another NATO country is right on their border and Ukraine will be allied to the west for good.
Russia is a well-resourced, educated society. Instead of leveraging those resources to gain influence a la the United States, China, etc., they tried bullying the old fashioned way - and was a disaster that will take them generations to recover from.
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I think if there is one narrative that has been blown out of the water over the last 18 months is that Putin is some sort of strategic genius. This entire episode has been an enormous blunder to the point where even Russia's central Asian allies like Armenia were distancing themselves from him yesterday, not to mention that another NATO country is right on their border and Ukraine will be allied to the west for good.
Russia is a well-resourced, educated society. Instead of leveraging those resources to gain influence a la the United States, China, etc., they tried bullying the old fashioned way - and was a disaster that will take them generations to recover from.
This is the tragedy of the Russian people. Centuries old going back to the Tsars. The people are mere cannon fodder to the oligarchs. Always have been
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I think if there is one narrative that has been blown out of the water over the last 18 months is that Putin is some sort of strategic genius. This entire episode has been an enormous blunder to the point where even Russia's central Asian allies like Armenia were distancing themselves from him yesterday, not to mention that another NATO country is right on their border and Ukraine will be allied to the west for good.
Russia is a well-resourced, educated society. Instead of leveraging those resources to gain influence a la the United States, China, etc., they tried bullying the old fashioned way - and was a disaster that will take them generations to recover from.
The narrative that he is a popular leader there was also proven false. Im worried the next phase will be a lot of chaos. This is a turning point for sure but Putin will do anything to retain power. Regardless, there are no good outcomes as far as future Russian leadership.
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I think if there is one narrative that has been blown out of the water over the last 18 months is that Putin is some sort of strategic genius. This entire episode has been an enormous blunder to the point where even Russia's central Asian allies like Armenia were distancing themselves from him yesterday, not to mention that another NATO country is right on their border and Ukraine will be allied to the west for good.
Russia is a well-resourced, educated society. Instead of leveraging those resources to gain influence a la the United States, China, etc., they tried bullying the old fashioned way - and was a disaster that will take them generations to recover from.
Did you forget to add "savvy" between strategic and genius? ;D
I have always been skeptical of Russia's willingness to join Europe as a partner rather than as a brutal, bullying and threatening force. When the Iron Curtain collapsed in '89-90, I was really hoping (but not expecting) to be proven wrong. As you pointed out, they have both the resources and an educated society, yet stubbornly continue to return to a MO that has failed.
I see no good coming out of the most recent events, and unlike apparently many here, I think this is far from over. Progozhin's decision to stop his advance on Moscow as very possibly strategic. Rather than "Russians fighting Russians", he may be trying to get some government military units to join with him. I really do not think for a moment that he has attained all his goals, whatever they are.
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Agreed. It isn't over. The ripples and ramifications of this are going to be ongoing.
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If I were Сергей Шойгу, I would be worried.
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Russian military
2021: 2nd best army in the world
2022: 2nd best army in Ukraine
2023: 2nd best army in Russia
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Russian military
2021: 2nd best army in the world
2022: 2nd best army in Ukraine
2023: 2nd best army in Russia
But I thought it was made up of the greatest of verile, many men?
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How they held off the Nazis in WWII is a minor miracle
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Weather. Germany also fighting the Allies.
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Weather. Germany also fighting the Allies.
Weather, the sheer size of the country, and lack of decent infrastructure.
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Weather, the sheer size of the country, and lack of decent infrastructure.
And having 27 million disposable souls.
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Weather, the sheer size of the country, and lack of decent infrastructure.
Terrible decision making as well. Methinks if the Wehrmacht had been in charge completely, results would have been vastly different
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The narrative that he is a popular leader there was also proven false. Im worried the next phase will be a lot of chaos. This is a turning point for sure but Putin will do anything to retain power. Regardless, there are no good outcomes as far as future Russian leadership.
If Russia is indeed a “well resourced and educated society”(and I believe it is) I think your conclusion (that there are no good outcomes as far as future Russian leadership is concerned) seems overly pessimistic. I can’t believe that every potential leader in a well educated country is worse than Putin.
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And having 27 million disposable souls.
This, mainly this.
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Putin wanted the empire of a Czar, he almost ended up as Russia's last next Czar.
FIFY
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Weather, the sheer size of the country, and lack of decent infrastructure.
And a leader whose arrogance was similar to that of today's Russian leader.
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And a leader whose arrogance was similar to that of today's Russian leader.
It's unfathomable to think about the amount of death Hitler/Stalin/Mao were responsible for. And the fact that there was a Cold War, which essentially began in 1917, should have been terminated immediately in 1945 or by 1950. Winston foresaw everything.
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It's unfathomable to think about the amount of death Hitler/Stalin/Mao were responsible for. And the fact that there was a Cold War, which essentially began in 1917, should have been terminated immediately in 1945 or by 1950. Winston foresaw everything.
That would not have been very smart. The west won eventually through its economic might - and continues to win even now.
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That would not have been very smart. The west won eventually through its economic might - and continues to win even now.
Say that to those who were slaughtered in the Gulags, Cultural Revolution, or in Cambodia. We could have won much earlier. We also could have stopped the Holocaust and knew what was happening.
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Say that to those who died I'm the Cultural Revolution or in Cambodia. We could have won much earlier.
How? By invading Russia and China? By dropping nukes all over the place?
I'm unconvinced (to put it lightly) that killing a bunch of people to save them from dying another way would have been an effective foreign policy strategy. Not to mention that it would have been a political non-starter.
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Say that to those who were slaughtered in the Gulags, Cultural Revolution, or in Cambodia. We could have won much earlier. We also could have stopped the Holocaust and knew what was happening.
That’s not realpolitik.
WWII was exhausting to all Americans and costly on every front. The idea we’d just roll along to take on the Soviets doesn’t match the reality of what was the situation.
When the European war ended, America was still fighting in the Pacific. Secondly, the idea of America the aggressor in September of 1945 against who was their ally in the war? That’s incredibly naive to think that was something that could happen.
There’s no way to know what would have happened had America marched to Moscow. What you can do is, understand the history of the Cold War and how it was mutually beneficial to both antagonists. American history in the Cold War isn’t peaches and cream when it comes to how we handled ourselves abroad.
As for stopping the Holocaust, America was in no position militarily to do anything about it. Any attempt at war with Germany prior to our entry would have been futile
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We'll agree to disagree. Roosevelt knew what was happening and we should have tried to thwart Nazi aggression as early at '38.
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Yes. But there was a huge isolationist streak both in congress and among the citizenry.
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Yes. But there was a huge isolationist streak both in congress and among the citizenry.
And it contributed to mass genocide.
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We'll agree to disagree. Roosevelt knew what was happening and we should have tried to thwart Nazi aggression as early at '38.
How? He didn’t have the political support or the public support. There was a pro-German faction in the nation and you have prominent Americans like Lindbergh preaching non-intervention. It’s not as simple as FDR saying go to war over crimes against humanity. In fact, we might be ashamed at how some might have reacted to going to war over it
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And it contributed to mass genocide.
So did the Treaty of Westphalia, colonialism, WWI, the India-Pakistan split and on and on.
Revising history doesn’t change history. One action doesn’t equal just x
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::)
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We'll agree to disagree. Roosevelt knew what was happening and we should have tried to thwart Nazi aggression as early at '38.
1938? Before Germany even invaded Poland? Even the UK and France didn’t get involved then.
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So did the Treaty of Westphalia, colonialism, WWI, the India-Pakistan split and on and on.
Revising history doesn’t change history. One action doesn’t equal just x
The T of W is not analogous to the world close to 300 years later.and what could have been done imo. We fked up Versailles as well with the "Dawes Plan". Absolutely idiotic.
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1938? Before Germany even invaded Poland? Even the UK and France didn’t get involved then.
I mean, there were plenty of opportunities to do so before then.
America was in no position either way. We’d have been routed in any attempt. People don’t understand how vulnerable we were militarily at that time from a manpower and equipment standpoint. December 7th changed it all. The ramp up to becoming an effective fighting force is one of the most incredible feats in human history.
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The T of W is not analogous to the world close to 300 years later.and what could have been done imo. We fked up Versailles as well with the "Dawes Plan". Absolutely idiotic.
Every action in European history lead up to WWII, so 🤷🏼♂️
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We'll agree to disagree. Roosevelt knew what was happening and we should have tried to thwart Nazi aggression as early at '38.
MMQB a world war and matter a factly stating a world leader “knew” something and didn’t act is certainly an interesting tact
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Muggsy gotta Muggsy.
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The T of W is not analogous to the world close to 300 years later.and what could have been done imo. We fked up Versailles as well with the "Dawes Plan". Absolutely idiotic.
The “what if Franz Ferdinand wasn’t assasinated” may be the most interesting in history. WW1 was one nobody really wanted but were dragged into. Kinda think the nationalistic movements in Austria-Hungary could have been managed diplomatically instead. Similar to how the Hungarian question was addressed.
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We've allowed all sorts of slaughtering well after WW2 and even Cambodia. See the continent of Africa. Totally inexcusable.
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We've allowed all sorts of slaughtering well after WW2 and even Cambodia. See the continent of Africa. Totally inexcusable.
We’ve? We? How has America done as the world’s policeman overall?
It’s not that simple to just throw troops at a situation. It’s not even that simple to use economic leverage in these situations.
Your heart is in a good place and I understand the frustration but American intervention isn’t always the answer
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The West wasn't Won until Zeppelin played the Forum in '72.
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The T of W is not analogous to the world close to 300 years later.and what could have been done imo. We fked up Versailles as well with the "Dawes Plan". Absolutely idiotic.
Muggs, love your enthusiasm for MU bball, but your absolute cluelessness regarding history is simply mind boggling.
Find a respected history professor or authors who have carefully and professionally researched the subjects of their books and have takes even remotely near yours. Then I will listen and take your version of history seriously. I am not a professional historian but have read stacks of history related books over many years. Nothing I have ever read comes remotely close to your theories and narratives.
All you have accomplished here is to derail this thread. Starting with a post of yours, there are now 22 posts that have nothing to do with the thread started by Tower.
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Now that I no longer live in Russia and have all my assets out it's ok to comment.
1. Putin is drunk on power like many long term autocrats such as Pinochet, Soeharto, Mahatir, Pol Pot, etc.
2. Most Russians still think the devil you know is better than the devil you don't
3. None of the immediate successors would be better or more stable than Putin. Prigozhin is a criminal through and through, and is always available to the highest bidder.
4. As much as the west likes to blame them, the Oligarchs are not to blame in this case. That would be the equivalent of the US citizenry and press asking Musk, Buffet, Bezos, Ellison and Gates to overthrow the US president. Regardless of how they gained their companies and their positions, these guys are now businessmen. Most were the smartest guy in the room when it was there for the taking, and they now run some serious companies.
5. No-one in Russia today is strong enough to take down Putin. It will take more mistakes by Putin PLUS a series of external and internal "events". It would also take any individual or political party many years to usurp Putin... if they survive. The level of checks and balances in place to maintain the power structure is unreal.
Don't take any of this please as pro-Putin. Russia is a great country with great people. The 2nd most patriotic country I've ever experienced. Putin is no longer Russia and Russia never was Putin. Putin has invaded a sovereign state and this sort of action must never be tolerated, no matter where or by whom.
The end game hasn't even started, and will take a long time to unveil.
Word to the wise: Watch China's role in all this.
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Wow! Fascinating post WarriorFan. Your last sentence is chilling, but I think it will prove to be true.
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Prigozhin is probably going to want to hire a food taster and stay away from windows. I've got to imagine his days are numbered. You come at the king, you best not miss.
Don't take any of this please as pro-Putin.
Ditto.
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Now that I no longer live in Russia and have all my assets out it's ok to comment.
1. Putin is drunk on power like many long term autocrats such as Pinochet, Soeharto, Mahatir, Pol Pot, etc.
2. Most Russians still think the devil you know is better than the devil you don't
3. None of the immediate successors would be better or more stable than Putin. Prigozhin is a criminal through and through, and is always available to the highest bidder.
4. As much as the west likes to blame them, the Oligarchs are not to blame in this case. That would be the equivalent of the US citizenry and press asking Musk, Buffet, Bezos, Ellison and Gates to overthrow the US president. Regardless of how they gained their companies and their positions, these guys are now businessmen. Most were the smartest guy in the room when it was there for the taking, and they now run some serious companies.
5. No-one in Russia today is strong enough to take down Putin. It will take more mistakes by Putin PLUS a series of external and internal "events". It would also take any individual or political party many years to usurp Putin... if they survive. The level of checks and balances in place to maintain the power structure is unreal.
Don't take any of this please as pro-Putin. Russia is a great country with great people. The 2nd most patriotic country I've ever experienced. Putin is no longer Russia and Russia never was Putin. Putin has invaded a sovereign state and this sort of action must never be tolerated, no matter where or by whom.
The end game hasn't even started, and will take a long time to unveil.
Word to the wise: Watch China's role in all this.
I am pretty sure that well thought out, fact laden posts are a TOS violation at scoop. ;D
(Seriously, thanks for insight unavailable to the average person. This is better analysis than most, if not all the talking heads I have heard)
On another aspect of this whole mess, I don't understand the drive for money and power when these people (Putin, Wagner guy, et. al.) spend most of their waking time looking over the shoulder. All the money in the world, but no freedom. Sounds like an awful life.
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Now that I no longer live in Russia and have all my assets out it's ok to comment.
1. Putin is drunk on power like many long term autocrats such as Pinochet, Soeharto, Mahatir, Pol Pot, etc.
2. Most Russians still think the devil you know is better than the devil you don't
3. None of the immediate successors would be better or more stable than Putin. Prigozhin is a criminal through and through, and is always available to the highest bidder.
4. As much as the west likes to blame them, the Oligarchs are not to blame in this case. That would be the equivalent of the US citizenry and press asking Musk, Buffet, Bezos, Ellison and Gates to overthrow the US president. Regardless of how they gained their companies and their positions, these guys are now businessmen. Most were the smartest guy in the room when it was there for the taking, and they now run some serious companies.
5. No-one in Russia today is strong enough to take down Putin. It will take more mistakes by Putin PLUS a series of external and internal "events". It would also take any individual or political party many years to usurp Putin... if they survive. The level of checks and balances in place to maintain the power structure is unreal.
Don't take any of this please as pro-Putin. Russia is a great country with great people. The 2nd most patriotic country I've ever experienced. Putin is no longer Russia and Russia never was Putin. Putin has invaded a sovereign state and this sort of action must never be tolerated, no matter where or by whom.
The end game hasn't even started, and will take a long time to unveil.
Word to the wise: Watch China's role in all this.
Number 2 is a really important point.
Western society looks at Russia and asks how Putin holds on, this is a good answer. This goes back to the Tsars. They knew that devil, not the new devil that replaced them but once the communists took over, they quickly adopted the new devil. It’s a certain tragic flaw of Russians.
I think it’s incomprehensible for many Americans to understand this mindset. It clouds our judgement in understanding foreign relations and diplomacy.
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Crean sucks
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Not sure how this morphed into a World War II alternate history thread.
Russia will end up being a vassal state of China. It is all but inevitable at this point. China has a vested interest in maintaining regional stability and any threat to that will be dealt with immediately. Whether that includes Putin as its figurehead remains to be seen, China will likely support whoever is most likely to maintain stability and whoever is most economically advantageous to them. It would not surprise me in the least if they were involved behind the scenes in quelling this rebellion. Lukashenko has no real power....he is a Putin puppet. Prigozhin did not turn around for no reason. It would not surprise me if he got word that China was going to support Putin in the event of any rebellion. That would be game over for him. Putin is evil but somewhat predictable, and the Chinese know they can work with him. Prigozhin is a true wild card, and his hand on the nuclear button would cause major regional instability and bring nothing but headaches for Beijing.
China will also be the one to decide if/when Russia gives up this disastrous war in Ukraine. If Putin loses Chinese support, he's done.
The 2 biggest winners of the War in Ukraine have been NATO and China. Russia is now a third rate power.
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I'm not sure how Russia will become a "vasal state" of China when the former has a great deal of the resources the latter needs.
China has undoubtedly grown in influence, but that's Russia's own doing.
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I'm not sure how Russia will become a "vasal state" of China when the former has a great deal of the resources the latter needs.
I'm also not sure "how" it will happen. It could be economic, it could be military, it could be resource based. I'm not sure when it will happen. I believe it is the most likely outcome.
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I'm not sure how Russia will become a "vasal state" of China when the former has a great deal of the resources the latter needs.
China has undoubtedly grown in influence, but that's Russia's own doing.
Yes, but most of the world is refusing to buy these resouces, with the exception of China and India.
Russia needs China much, much more than China needs Russia.
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Now that I no longer live in Russia and have all my assets out it's ok to comment.
1. Putin is drunk on power like many long term autocrats such as Pinochet, Soeharto, Mahatir, Pol Pot, etc.
2. Most Russians still think the devil you know is better than the devil you don't
3. None of the immediate successors would be better or more stable than Putin. Prigozhin is a criminal through and through, and is always available to the highest bidder.
4. As much as the west likes to blame them, the Oligarchs are not to blame in this case. That would be the equivalent of the US citizenry and press asking Musk, Buffet, Bezos, Ellison and Gates to overthrow the US president. Regardless of how they gained their companies and their positions, these guys are now businessmen. Most were the smartest guy in the room when it was there for the taking, and they now run some serious companies.
5. No-one in Russia today is strong enough to take down Putin. It will take more mistakes by Putin PLUS a series of external and internal "events". It would also take any individual or political party many years to usurp Putin... if they survive. The level of checks and balances in place to maintain the power structure is unreal.
Don't take any of this please as pro-Putin. Russia is a great country with great people. The 2nd most patriotic country I've ever experienced. Putin is no longer Russia and Russia never was Putin. Putin has invaded a sovereign state and this sort of action must never be tolerated, no matter where or by whom.
The end game hasn't even started, and will take a long time to unveil.
Word to the wise: Watch China's role in all this.
Thank you for your comments. There's a lot to think about when it comes to China's potential role. None of which is particularly good for the United States.
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How? He didn’t have the political support or the public support. There was a pro-German faction in the nation and you have prominent Americans like Lindbergh preaching non-intervention. It’s not as simple as FDR saying go to war over crimes against humanity. In fact, we might be ashamed at how some might have reacted to going to war over it
Monday morning quarterbacks can look at the situation and make a different claim. But FDR, for better or worse, was sitting in the decision chair at the time.
One option would have been to bomb the concentration camps at Treblinka, Dachau and Auschwitz. The rail lines, the trains and the facilities that fed the Holocaust. Maybe that would have worked -- or maybe the Nazis would have rebuilt them. Plus, the B-17s and B-24s did not have the range to reach the camps without landing in Russia or Russian held territory. The US tried like all get out to negotiate landing rights for bombers after depositing their payloads on Germany. The Russians "sort of" agreed but made the process so painful that few bombers ended up landing in the east.
The camps were way too far east
Josef Stalin saw us as both an ally and a potential enemy.
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Well played.
Edit... I liked it better when you stopped at 'Monday morning Q', dgies. I thought it was brilliant commentary, some of your best.
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Josef Stalin saw us as both an ally and a potential enemy.
To be fair to Stalin, the US and UK literally had a plan to align with German forces after deposing Hitler, and attack the USSR.
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To be fair to Stalin, the US and UK literally had a plan to align with German forces after deposing Hitler, and attack the USSR.
Too bad it never came to fruition.
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One option would have been to bomb the concentration camps at Treblinka, Dachau and Auschwitz. The rail lines, the trains and the facilities that fed the Holocaust. Maybe that would have worked -- or maybe the Nazis would have rebuilt them. Plus, the B-17s and B-24s did not have the range to reach the camps without landing in Russia or Russian held territory. The US tried like all get out to negotiate landing rights for bombers after depositing their payloads on Germany. The Russians "sort of" agreed but made the process so painful that few bombers ended up landing in the east.
There is a Secrets of the Dead episode that I've been meaning to watch that examines the debate among the US and British high command on whether to bomb Auschwitz.
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Sort of like the idea of America immediately turning its back on an ally at the end of WWII and becoming the very thing they defeated. Be the aggressor and extend American hegemony across the whole of Europe and into the Pacific. Ramifications certainly would have been minimal in both the short term and long term.
The number of casualties would have been staggering unless we used the bomb beyond Japan, in this case, as a weapon of aggression. Certainly wouldn’t have been a long term problem. Everything would be perfect in the world today, probably.
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Monday morning quarterbacks can look at the situation and make a different claim. But FDR, for better or worse, was sitting in the decision chair at the time.
One option would have been to bomb the concentration camps at Treblinka, Dachau and Auschwitz. The rail lines, the trains and the facilities that fed the Holocaust. Maybe that would have worked -- or maybe the Nazis would have rebuilt them. Plus, the B-17s and B-24s did not have the range to reach the camps without landing in Russia or Russian held territory. The US tried like all get out to negotiate landing rights for bombers after depositing their payloads on Germany. The Russians "sort of" agreed but made the process so painful that few bombers ended up landing in the east.
The camps were way too far east
Josef Stalin saw us as both an ally and a potential enemy.
There's plenty of literature about FDR's tepid response to the concentration camps and that he knew full well what was going on. Including meeting with Jews that got out. He never felt strongly about it from many of the things I've read. And frankly we as a nation contributed to it because there was virulent antisemitism at the time. It's also worth noting that antisemitism is as bad today worldwide as it's been since WW2. Roosevelt essentially didn't say one word about these camps until years after he knew and all the murder took place. Imo we have a moral responsibility to prevent such mass killing of innocent people. And what have we done since?? Even after Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot? Nothing. We absolutely could and should have stopped what happened in Rwanda and Sierra Leone for starters. Inexcusable.
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FDR of course knew about the camps. His long held belief, rightly or wrongly, was that the best way the United State could provide relief was to defeat Germany in the war. He established the War Refugee Board too late after pressure on a number of fronts, but it was effective for the short time it was in existence.
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Kari Lake Declares Herself New Leader of the Wagner Group
PHOENIX (The Borowitz Report)—The situation in Russia descended into further uncertainty after Kari Lake stunned geopolitical experts by declaring herself the new leader of the Wagner Group.
Speaking from the mercenary force’s new headquarters in Phoenix, Arizona, the former anchorwoman claimed that she won the leadership of Wagner by a landslide.
She warned Russian state media against questioning her claim to the Wagner helm. “I will be your worst frickin’ nightmare,” she said.
Wagner troops expressed surprise at Lake’s sudden elevation and reservations about whether she would be an improvement over their former leader, Yevgeny Prigozhin. “She seems really mean,” one said.
https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/kari-lake-declares-herself-new-leader-of-the-wagner-group
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Kari Lake Declares Herself New Leader of the Wagner Group
PHOENIX (The Borowitz Report)—The situation in Russia descended into further uncertainty after Kari Lake stunned geopolitical experts by declaring herself the new leader of the Wagner Group.
Speaking from the mercenary force’s new headquarters in Phoenix, Arizona, the former anchorwoman claimed that she won the leadership of Wagner by a landslide.
She warned Russian state media against questioning her claim to the Wagner helm. “I will be your worst frickin’ nightmare,” she said.
Wagner troops expressed surprise at Lake’s sudden elevation and reservations about whether she would be an improvement over their former leader, Yevgeny Prigozhin. “She seems really mean,” one said.
https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/kari-lake-declares-herself-new-leader-of-the-wagner-group
W
T
F
?
-
Look at the link.
It
Is
Satire
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Look at the link.
It
Is
Satire
Oh...okay.
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Look at the link.
It
Is
Satire
Isn’t
Satire
Supposed
To
Be
Funny?
-
Humor, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I miss the good old days when you could laugh.
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Humor, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I miss the good old days when you could laugh.
Everyone should laugh at Kari Lake
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Humor, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I miss the good old days when you could laugh.
Very true, my friend. But I still laugh all the time at things that are funny. Just today I literally laughed out loud recalling your story of driving in a car alone and wearing a mask to ward off Covid. Now THAT was funny. And original.
Sometimes Rico is funny and original, just not as often as he used to be. I miss those good old days.
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The story was I was going to wear a mask while driving to inspire road rage. I liked that one.
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Isn’t
Satire
Supposed
To
Be
Funny?
Right. We shouldn't laugh at Kari Lake. Check.
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Yes, but most of the world is refusing to buy these resouces, with the exception of China and India.
Russia needs China much, much more than China needs Russia.
I will respectfully disagree. Russian coal production has barely dropped... it's all getting consumed somewhere. Lots gets "washed" when combined with other cargoes. Same for oil. Russian oil is getting mixed with other sources and/ or refined in places that then sell it to the global market. Read about what's happening with Gold in UAE. Diamonds from Russia are sold on friendly markets or "washed" into global markets and production has not dropped much.
China has a very limited supply of water, oil, gas, skilled people, tillable land, forest products, iron ore, phosphate (for fertilizer) and copper. Their coal and metals mines are ridiculously inefficient and very high cost which is why they buy so much production from offshore. China needs a lot of what Russia has, and is working slowly and carefully to gain control of Russian production. Check out how many hectares of Russian forest is already owned by Chinese companies.
Prior to the war it had been harder for China to exert economic influence over Russia the way they have over African countries. Now the control structures in Russia are weaker and the need for buyers is stronger. The Chinese are coming in and spreading lots of money around. It's clear what they want to happen next - they want to own the government the same way they own Ziimbabwe or DRC.
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Right. We shouldn't laugh at Kari Lake. Check.
Kari Lake, you, me and everyone can be the butt of jokes. I just like my jokes funny. You don’t care as long as the butt of the joke is someone you don’t like.
So which of us has a sense of humor?
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Kari Lake, you, me and everyone can be the butt of jokes. I just like my jokes funny. You don’t care as long as the butt of the joke is someone you don’t like.
So which of us has a sense of humor?
My apologies. I'll stick to the "<insert exotic animal> is delicious" formula that the underboard finds the height of humor even on the 403rd iteration.
If Lenny doesn't find it funny, no one finds it funny.
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Look at the link.
It
Is
Satire
Only because the new Yorker URL told you it was humor.
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My apologies. I'll stick to the "<insert exotic animal> is delicious" formula that the underboard finds the height of humor even on the 403rd iteration.
I have no idea what you’re talking about but it sure doesn’t sound funny. At least the way you’re telling it.
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Only because the new Yorker URL told you it was humor.
Please.
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Reports that the Putin Prigozhin truce is already showing signs of crumbling.
What? Putin holds a grudge and goes back on a deal as soon as he no longer feels threatened? Strong, brilliant leader.
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Now that I no longer live in Russia and have all my assets out it's ok to comment.
1. Putin is drunk on power like many long term autocrats such as Pinochet, Soeharto, Mahatir, Pol Pot, etc.
2. Most Russians still think the devil you know is better than the devil you don't
3. None of the immediate successors would be better or more stable than Putin. Prigozhin is a criminal through and through, and is always available to the highest bidder.
4. As much as the west likes to blame them, the Oligarchs are not to blame in this case. That would be the equivalent of the US citizenry and press asking Musk, Buffet, Bezos, Ellison and Gates to overthrow the US president. Regardless of how they gained their companies and their positions, these guys are now businessmen. Most were the smartest guy in the room when it was there for the taking, and they now run some serious companies.
5. No-one in Russia today is strong enough to take down Putin. It will take more mistakes by Putin PLUS a series of external and internal "events". It would also take any individual or political party many years to usurp Putin... if they survive. The level of checks and balances in place to maintain the power structure is unreal.
Don't take any of this please as pro-Putin. Russia is a great country with great people. The 2nd most patriotic country I've ever experienced. Putin is no longer Russia and Russia never was Putin. Putin has invaded a sovereign state and this sort of action must never be tolerated, no matter where or by whom.
The end game hasn't even started, and will take a long time to unveil.
Word to the wise: Watch China's role in all this.
So, you’re saying the KGB reads scoop.
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So, you’re saying the KGB reads scoop.
Poor bastards.
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So, you’re saying the KGB reads scoop.
The Hauser letter was really a KGB plot.
Buzz was just avoiding KGB listening devices with aids flushing the toilet.
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So, you’re saying the KGB reads scoop.
I'm sure they miss it now that I'm not using a Russian IP address.
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I'm sure they miss it now that I'm not using a Russian IP address.
Are you the infamous UGG dealer?
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Are you the infamous UGG dealer?
нет
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нет
жаль, я хотел пару
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So, you’re saying the KGB reads scoop.
So, he invaded Ukraine in search of an arby's?
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So, he invaded Ukraine in search of an arby's?
Its the wagyu burger, can you blame him?
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Prigozhin and Putin met. On June 29.
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Putin losin' da war in Iraq. God save da Queen, aina?
#Buffoon
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Is he Sleepy? Or coked up? It's all so confusing.
Expanding NATO instead of dismantling like Putin ordered, infrastructure projects underway, CHIPs act, bipartisan agreement on the debt ceiling, unemployment at 3.7%, GDP expanding, inflation plummeting*.
Imagine what he could do if he wasn't so old, infirm, and senile.
* Although Goose will tell you the government is lying just like China's government lies.
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Yeah, Biden has run circles around Putin. Of course, that's mostly due to Putin stepping on a garden rake, but Sweden and Finland will be in NATO, the eastern European NATO members who were casting eyes upon Russia are now firmly entrenched, and reports are that Turkey may join the EU. Oh and Ukraine be FIRMLY pro-Western for generations to come.
From a realpolitik point of view, Biden has recovered from the disaster that was the Afghanistan evacuation and has severely weakened a historic foe.
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Turkey joining the EU and moving towards stability in that regard may be the biggest impact of all of this IMO.
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Are cluster bombs a war crime or not?
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Are cluster bombs a war crime or not?
Depends on whether you've signed on to the Convention on Cluster Munitions. The U.S., Russia and Ukraine have not.
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Are cluster bombs a war crime or not?
Depends on if it's 2022 or 2023.
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Are cluster bombs a war crime or not?
Does it depend on whether you are the aggressor or whether you are defending your land.
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Depends on if it's 2022 or 2023.
Yup
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Does it depend on whether you are the aggressor or whether you are defending your land.
It shouldn't.
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Be nice to the invaders.
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Are cluster bombs a war crime or not?
I am of the opinion that sometimes merely the use of a certain weapon is not enough to determine whether a war crime has been committed. How it is used is also important.
Some weapons like biological or chemical weapons are always off limits.
But I think there are legitimate defensive uses for cluster munitions. The primary risk is undetonated munitions to civilians on the territory they are being used. If this is a risk Ukraine is willing to take to defend their territory, I am comfortable with the decision.
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I am of the opinion that sometimes merely the use of a certain weapon is not enough to determine whether a war crime has been committed. How it is used is also important.
Some weapons like biological or chemical weapons are always off limits.
But I think there are legitimate defensive uses for cluster munitions. The primary risk is undetonated munitions to civilians on the territory they are being used. If this is a risk Ukraine is willing to take to defend their territory, I am comfortable with the decision.
Apparently the ones the US are sending have a very low dud percentage which is a good thing.
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Apparently the ones the US are sending have a very low dud percentage which is a good thing.
Agreed. Dud percentage has decreased significantly since these weapons were used extensively in the Vietnam War.
While ideals are important, war is full of bad decisions. The pragmatic view is that these weapons are already being used on Ukrainian territory by Russians. If Ukraine wants them, I think it is justifiable for them to use them too.
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Agreed. Dud percentage has decreased significantly since these weapons were used extensively in the Vietnam War.
While ideals are important, war is full of bad decisions. The pragmatic view is that these weapons are already being used on Ukrainian territory by Russians. If Ukraine wants them, I think it is justifiable for them to use them too.
One doesn't need to look any further than the use of nuclear weapons in WWII. It was an absolutely horrible thing to do...but I don't really know what the alternative could have been.
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Are cluster bombs a war crime or not?
Eh, both sides were already using them. It's their land and should be their decision.
They're terrible weapons though.
But so are land mines, and those are somehow okay.
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Yeah, Biden has run circles around Putin. Of course, that's mostly due to Putin stepping on a garden rake, but Sweden and Finland will be in NATO, the eastern European NATO members who were casting eyes upon Russia are now firmly entrenched, and reports are that Turkey may join the EU. Oh and Ukraine be FIRMLY pro-Western for generations to come.
From a realpolitik point of view, Biden has recovered from the disaster that was the Afghanistan evacuation and has severely weakened a historic foe.
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PeacefulMerryAuklet-max-1mb.gif)
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Russia no longer allowing Ukraine to ship grain.
One more inflationary pressure.
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Russia no longer allowing Ukraine to ship grain.
One more inflationary pressure.
Well see if Russia is able to actually stop that with Turkey's involvement.
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Russia no longer allowing Ukraine to ship grain.
One more inflationary pressure.
"What has Putin ever done to you?" -- Tuckems
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Well see if Russia is able to actually stop that with Turkey's involvement.
I was going to type similar. Turkey stated last week they would ensure grain shipments would safely cross the Black Sea. I think I also read the biggest beneficiary of Ukraine grain shipments is China which severely further neuters anything Russia might try.
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Well, this is certainly a surprise:
Yevgeny Prigozhin in fatal plane crash, Russian officials say
Ten die on flight from Moscow to St Petersburg, according to emergency ministry
https://www.ft.com/content/812c9da3-80f2-4fe1-8fad-0b4441d1977a
"If confirmed, Prigozhin’s death would mark a spectacular end to the warlord’s meteoric career nearly a year and a half into president Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, two months after he led his paramilitary force on a historic, abortive mutiny march on Moscow.
A post by Grey Zone, a Wagner-connected social media channel, claimed that Russian anti-aircraft defences had shot down the plane in the Tver region near the village of Kuzhenkino.
It said that residents heard “two bursts of characteristic air defence fire” before the fall of the plane, “and this is confirmed by inversion traces in the sky in one of the videos”, it said, adding that the information was preliminary."
Did not see "call off coup against murderous dictator half-way through" coming.
Surely Putin won't hold a grudge, will he?
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Well, this is certainly a surprise:
Yevgeny Prigozhin in fatal plane crash, Russian officials say
Ten die on flight from Moscow to St Petersburg, according to emergency ministry
https://www.ft.com/content/812c9da3-80f2-4fe1-8fad-0b4441d1977a
There were no windows available for him to fall out of?
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Well, this is certainly a surprise:
Yevgeny Prigozhin in fatal plane crash, Russian officials say
Ten die on flight from Moscow to St Petersburg, according to emergency ministry
https://www.ft.com/content/812c9da3-80f2-4fe1-8fad-0b4441d1977a
"If confirmed, Prigozhin’s death would mark a spectacular end to the warlord’s meteoric career nearly a year and a half into president Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, two months after he led his paramilitary force on a historic, abortive mutiny march on Moscow.
A post by Grey Zone, a Wagner-connected social media channel, claimed that Russian anti-aircraft defences had shot down the plane in the Tver region near the village of Kuzhenkino.
It said that residents heard “two bursts of characteristic air defence fire” before the fall of the plane, “and this is confirmed by inversion traces in the sky in one of the videos”, it said, adding that the information was preliminary."
That Prigozhin was still traveling by jet within Russia is certainly a choice.
There were no windows available for him to fall out of?
Ive always respected those who support Russia and wanting to go back to a former golden age would be aligned with the comeback of good old historical tradition of defenestration
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That Prigozhin was still traveling by jet within Russia is certainly a choice.
I know, right? Fatal hubris.
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Almost like a Vegas game of Clue.
I had 35-1 on being on a domesric flight that got shot down.
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Yup. We all knew it was only a matter of time. Putin kills his enemies.
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So uh, is he like actually dead or just pretend dead?
There were the pictures that came out a few weeks ago of YP with disguises and false identification materials.
And anything that is officially released from Russia is impossible to confirm as accurate.
So, who really knows.
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So uh, is he like actually dead or just pretend dead?
There were the pictures that came out a few weeks ago of YP with disguises and false identification materials.
And anything that is officially released from Russia is impossible to confirm as accurate.
So, who really knows.
Yeah, I don't think this guy was that dumb to be flying a personal jet registered to him over moscow. A lot of speculation that he was just listed on the manifest but wasn't actually on the plane.
But if he was, FAFO.
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So uh, is he like actually dead or just pretend dead?
There were the pictures that came out a few weeks ago of YP with disguises and false identification materials.
And anything that is officially released from Russia is impossible to confirm as accurate.
So, who really knows.
Hopefully he is dead. The 10s of millions of people who suffered at his hand certainly hope so.
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If he's alive, this time he will not stop his army enroute to Moscow. I was about to put this in teal but decided not to. Russians are simply too unpredictable to dismiss any scenario.
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Yeah, I don't think this guy was that dumb to be flying a personal jet registered to him over moscow. A lot of speculation that he was just listed on the manifest but wasn't actually on the plane.
But if he was, FAFO.
He has been flying all around Russia since the mutiny. Back and forth from St. Petersburg to Belarus. Trips to Africa as well.
Hubris, I think is the correct assessment here. Today is exactly two months since the mutiny.
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(https://cultishcreative.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/img_7208.jpg)
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You shall know them by the company they keep.
Republicans to meet allies of Hungary’s Viktor Orbán on ending Ukraine aid
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/republicans-to-meet-allies-of-hungary-s-viktor-orb%C3%A1n-on-ending-ukraine-aid/ar-AA1lhe1F?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=42dd91fdda4e42f0a946b61095b8df0c&ei=30
"Allies of Hungary’s far-right prime minister Viktor Orbán will hold a closed-door meeting with Republicans in Washington to push for an end to US military support for Ukraine, the Guardian has learned.
Márton Ugrósdy, the deputy state secretary for the prime minister’s political director’s office, and Attila Demkó, a leading pro-Orbán academic, along with members of the Hungarian embassy in Washington, will on Monday begin a two-day event hosted by the conservative Heritage Foundation thinktank."
Should we side with muderous dictators, or a democracy fighting for its existance?
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The right’s obsession with Hungary is strange.
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The right’s obsession with Hungary is strange.
Not really.
A right-wing dictator? Their dream scenario.
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This thread was dormant and is now gonna get locked, we already have enough active threads where people throw daily bait bombs ::)
Though a thread on Lorinc Mesazros would be hilarious. Broke pipe fitter with a sinking company to billionaire in a couple years. He’s the childhood bestie of Orban? No no, unrelated coincidence
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This thread was dormant and is now gonna get locked, we already have enough active threads where people throw daily bait bombs ::)
Though a thread on Lorinc Mesazros would be hilarious. Broke pipe fitter with a sinking company to billionaire in a couple years. He’s the childhood bestie of Orban? No no, unrelated coincidence
Orban proclaiming Hungary a Christian nation and himself and ardent Christian and having his lapdogs in America eat it up is another great example of the sham of American Christianity and evangelicalism
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Did America win yet ?
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Did America win yet ?
Every day, actually