1. Anderson benched Posh due to performance, Curbelo due to conduct. Soriano was seriously ticked about the effort against SHU. SJU came out angry and took their anger and frustration out on MU in the first half.
2. I had not, over two games, seen SJU run that high post action off of Soriano. It was isolations and hitting him low post to mid post. That high post movement was very effective.
3. I would like to get mad at Sean and Ben for that play at the end of the half, but..... freshmen. Waddayagonna do? They both stayed in it in the second half. .
4. There are many ways to defend the high pick and roll. Buzz claimed to have 6. Frequently, Shaka will double and turn the ballhandler. Switching every time and leaving a big out high and a guard down low can kill you if the other team is patient. We saw that under Wojo. I know Shaka likes to switch all 5, but there comes a time to change it up to leave big on big. In Shaka's defense, he changed things up at half time.
5. I think we can all see the value of Omax on the floor. Two fouls in the first half, the flow went SJU's way. He was the freaking man in the second half. #OMax2nba
6. I also think we can all agree this was not Oso's best work. First time all year he looked weak with the ball. Probably because he kept getting called 'Ighodory'. Really?
7. I love Stevie a little more every game.
8. The bench all had moments. But the starters are all in the game at the end. Well, except for avoiding the 'Hack-an-Oso'.
9. MU took SJU's best shot. The absorbed it and stayed within reach. They made adjustments on defense in the second half. Two straight conference road wins. Warriors.
Hearing the "We are... Marquette" cheer in NYC. Priceless.
Olivier
Maxence
Prosper
Sledgehammer 2nd half for the young man Tower.
Quote from: tower912 on January 03, 2023, 07:40:51 PM
1. Anderson benched Posh due to performance, Curbelo due to conduct. Soriano was seriously ticked about the effort against SHU. SJU came out angry and took their anger and frustration out on MU in the first half.
2. I had not, over two games, seen SJU run that high post action off of Soriano. It was isolations and hitting him low post to mid post. That high post movement was very effective.
3. I would like to get mad at Sean and Ben for that play at the end of the half, but..... freshmen. Waddayagonna do? They both stayed in it in the second half. .
4. There are many ways to defend the high pick and roll. Buzz claimed to have 6. Frequently, Shaka will double and turn the ballhandler. Switching every time and leaving a big out high and a guard down low can kill you if the other team is patient. We saw that under Wojo. I know Shaka likes to switch all 5, but there comes a time to change it up to leave big on big. In Shaka's defense, he changed things up at half time.
5. I think we can all see the value of Omax on the floor. Two fouls in the first half, the flow went SJU's way. He was the freaking man in the second half. #OMax2nba
6. I also think we can all agree this was not Oso's best work. First time all year he looked weak with the ball. Probably because he kept getting called 'Ighodory'. Really?
7. I love Stevie a little more every game.
8. The bench all had moments. But the starters are all in the game at the end. Well, except for avoiding the 'Hack-an-Oso'.
9. MU took SJU's best shot. The absorbed it and stayed within reach. They made adjustments on defense in the second half. Two straight conference road wins. Warriors.
Hearing the "We are... Marquette" cheer in NYC. Priceless.
Wait?!? They won?!?
I noticed the change you mentioned on PNR defense immediately in the second half. They got burned a couple times but really a great adjustment.
I forgot how "interesting" the game chat thread is. Both Goose & I (couple others too) mentioned that Johnnie's first half shooting was unsustainable, and MU picked up the intensity on defense. Very nice road win, that's a money in the bank type win come March.
If we can start stringing two solid halves together, look out Big East.
This was a really nice performance. Withstood SJU's best shot on their home floor and still ended up with a double figure victory. Wojo's teams would have folded it in after that first half.
Dish
Great call on the first 70. I liked that play big time. This will be a great win come March.
Very entertaining basketball team.
14/8 for Kolek. Can't say enough about how steady he is.
Over several games MU seems to lose the first half and then come out gunning in the 2nd which I hope is due to the defense wearing down the opponent. I don't like giving the opposing team 7+ pts.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on January 03, 2023, 07:49:36 PM
14/8 for Kolek. Can't say enough about how steady he is.
Its the lack of TO's too.
Really incredible.
Hes getting a bit better at the lay ups too. If those keep improving his scoring will make him even more dynamic.
One really minor detail from tonight's game that I enjoyed was that Shaka had the confidence to go to Ben Gold with 4 minutes left even though Oso had no foul trouble. They just needed quick change.
Love that they have that confidence in Benny!
Quote from: BallBoy on January 03, 2023, 07:51:19 PM
Over several games MU seems to lose the first half and then come out gunning in the 2nd which I hope is due to the defense wearing down the opponent. I don't like giving the opposing team 7+ pts.
MU makes adjustments at half time.
(https://www.memecreator.org/static/images/memes/5541728.jpg)
Quote from: tower912 on January 03, 2023, 07:52:59 PM
MU makes adjustments at half time.
Great but we still shouldn't be that far back. That would imply bad game planning. Seems like the intensity only show up in the 2nd half. Not a great plan for tournament time.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on January 03, 2023, 07:53:40 PM
(https://www.memecreator.org/static/images/memes/5541728.jpg)
Laughed out loud so much I had to spell it out because LOL didn't do it justice
Quote from: Skatastrophy on January 03, 2023, 07:53:40 PM
(https://www.memecreator.org/static/images/memes/5541728.jpg)
I thought my hearing was off.
Do we give up a basket ....and a foul later on an opponents inbound play......every. Single. Game?
Great offense all night. Defense was great for the first 10 minutes of the second half. Keep gang rebounding and we'll be in good shape.
Tyler Kolek may end going down as one of my all time favorites before his career is over. I have liked him from day one and I hope they have some real success in March to enhance his legacy. He is a special college basketball player.
4-1 to start conference. 2-1 on the road (still no game has been called like that Providence game. >:()
Bring on the Hoyas and Huskies. I expect some home cooking for once.
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on January 03, 2023, 07:52:17 PM
One really minor detail from tonight's game that I enjoyed was that Shaka had the confidence to go to Ben Gold with 4 minutes left even though Oso had no foul trouble. They just needed quick change.
Love that they have that confidence in Benny!
One other detail. Did it seem like the kids on St. John liked Shaka and wanted to engage him?
Quote from: Goose on January 03, 2023, 07:57:01 PM
Tyler Kolek may end going down as one of my all time favorites before his career is over. I have liked him from day one and I hope they have some real success in March to enhance his legacy. He is a special college basketball player.
To be fair, you thought Kur should get more of Oso's minutes. ;D Kolek is the guy everybody else hates. Which is awesome.
Quote from: DegenerateDish on January 03, 2023, 07:44:41 PM
I forgot how "interesting" the game chat thread is. Both Goose & I (couple others too) mentioned that Johnnie's first half shooting was unsustainable, and MU picked up the intensity on defense. Very nice road win, that's a money in the bank type win come March.
You made your bet at half, correct?
tower
I think we played our best ball when Kur was on the court last year. His defense set the tone in multiple games last January. I do not believe I ever said who he should play over, but thought he was a difference maker.
Gotta get this in before JayBee arrives
16/17 from the line in the second half.
Stevies front end the only miss.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 03, 2023, 07:43:51 PM
I noticed the change you mentioned on PNR defense immediately in the second half. They got burned a couple times but really a great adjustment.
SJU went back to running more isolation in the second half. Maybe MU's defense, maybe just reverting to form. The second notable defensive change is that on the few times in the second half SJU fed Soriano at the top and tried to run motion off of it, the MU defender's quit following the guard around the top, instead going under.
Quote from: Goose on January 03, 2023, 08:00:28 PM
tower
I think we played our best ball when Kur was on the court last year. His defense set the tone in multiple games last January. I do not believe I ever said who he should play over, but thought he was a difference maker.
Goose, I love you. Lighten up.
I look forward to when Joplin returns from West Lafayette. THIS will be fun.
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on January 03, 2023, 08:01:08 PM
Gotta get this in before JayBee arrives
16/17 from the line in the second half.
Stevies front end the only miss.
Yep - performance at the line in the 2nd was excellent. Impressed Sean calmly knocked down both of his.
Quote from: real chili 83 on January 03, 2023, 08:03:09 PM
I look forward to when Joplin returns from West Lafayette. THIS will be fun.
Jop actually played okay today. A few frustrating drives to nowhere TOs, but he also finished around the rim and hit a big second half three to push it back to 8.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 03, 2023, 07:59:30 PM
You made your bet at half, correct?
Correct. I almost took MU first to 60 at +450 too, but thought the 70 at +250 was too good of value to pass up.
Quote from: BallBoy on January 03, 2023, 07:55:50 PM
Great but we still shouldn't be that far back. That would imply bad game planning. Seems like the intensity only show up in the 2nd half. Not a great plan for tournament time.
<Eeyore .gif>
Quote from: DegenerateDish on January 03, 2023, 08:07:00 PM
Correct. I almost took MU first to 60 at +450 too, but thought the 70 at +250 was too good of value to pass up.
That's what I thought in the game thread. Nice
I've been very pleased with the way Kam has let the game come to him. He's taking much better shots over the last month.
Looking at boxscore, everyone had an exceptional game, even Ross who had three steals and plucked Posh once.
Said at halftime, MU would be in trouble if Omax didn't show and did he ever. What a jump start for second half.
Oso had five turnovers, but redeemed himself in final five minutes.
Posh had one point in second half, Mitchell, Ross and Jones hounded him.
Georgetown has not won a BE game in like over 600 days, keep it going.
Quote from: Ellenson Guerrero on January 03, 2023, 08:05:55 PM
Jop actually played okay today. A few frustrating drives to nowhere TOs, but he also finished around the rim and hit a big second half three to push it back to 8.
Heck of a drive and base line kick out for a Kam 3 when SJU was on their run to cut it from 11 to 5.
Quote from: Ellenson Guerrero on January 03, 2023, 08:05:55 PM
Jop actually played okay today. A few frustrating drives to nowhere TOs, but he also finished around the rim and hit a big second half three to push it back to 8.
Yes....that is who he is right now. Frustrating, yet thrilling.
All I know is Shaka is giving him the opportunity.
Road wins in the BE are great, no matter where they are.
And I subscribe to the tenet that defense travels.
However, I think MU's defense inadvertently flew into Newark and got turned around in Penn Station before making it to Queens for the second half.
Dish
The first to 60 would have been a tough call, even for me. I did like the first to 70 when you posted it.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on January 03, 2023, 07:53:40 PM
(https://www.memecreator.org/static/images/memes/5541728.jpg)
Just keep swimming!
I think the first half was as much about Anderson lighting a fire under them and showing some new wrinkles. Specifically, not dressing Curbelo and benching Posh. A message was sent. SJU came out fired up and angry. They hit some contested shots. And specifically, I do not remember that high post action with Soriano. They were very effective with that for about 5 minutes.
Finally, OMax on the bench with two fouls, MU's defense is sub par. OMax comes out like a man possessed, MU's defense improves. Coincidence?
Quote from: Goose on January 03, 2023, 08:10:32 PM
Dish
The first to 60 would have been a tough call, even for me. I did like the first to 70 when you posted it.
Yeah, it was 48-41 at half, I figured an MU run was certainly coming, but the 60 mark was too close in my mind to play.
Dish
+450 is a nice number if in the right side, but +450 for a reason
I remember not being too worried down 7 at half. It reminded me of the scene from the Hustler when Paul Newman is initially beating Jackie Gleason like a drum. George C. Scott sizes up Newman and tells Gleason something to the effect of, "Keep playing. This guy's a loser." And Gleason wears him down.
(http://thecinemaarchives.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/george-c-scott-he-hustler.jpg)
Just saw that tonight was the most points St. John's has allowed in regulation at Carnesecca since the building opened in 1961. Our offense didn't even really click tonight.
Did you see the game photos posted by MU. Looks like Butch was at the game!
Quote from: nyg on January 03, 2023, 08:09:20 PM
Looking at boxscore, everyone had an exceptional game, even Ross who had three steals and plucked Posh once.
Said at halftime, MU would be in trouble if Omax didn't show and did he ever. What a jump start for second half.
Oso had five turnovers, but redeemed himself in final five minutes.
Posh had one point in second half, Mitchell, Ross and Jones hounded him.
Georgetown has not won a BE game in like over 600 days, keep it going.
Our trap game before we play UCONN.
Frenns
Nice to Butch there. His son plays HS ball at good program in Jersey.
don't know if it was noticed/mentioned here, but special "K" only had ONE turnover.
that is an amazing number for any point guard
Quote from: tower912 on January 03, 2023, 08:02:25 PM
The second notable defensive change is that on the few times in the second half SJU fed Soriano at the top and tried to run motion off of it, the MU defender's quit following the guard around the top, instead going under.
Yes—I was hoping for this change....and it happened.
Quote from: MuggsyB on January 03, 2023, 08:08:54 PM
I've been very pleased with the way Kam has let the game come to him. He's taking much better shots over the last month.
Took a few bombs tonight......right at the release I say "short" and it hits the front of the rim.
Quote from: Spaniel with a Short Tail on January 03, 2023, 08:27:32 PM
I remember not being too worried down 7 at half. It reminded me of the scene from the Hustler when Paul Newman is initially beating Jackie Gleason like a drum. George C. Scott sizes up Newman and tells Gleason something to the effect of, "Keep playing. This guy's a loser." And Gleason wears him down.
(http://thecinemaarchives.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/george-c-scott-he-hustler.jpg)
Greatest sport's movie ever.
Quote from: Spaniel with a Short Tail on January 03, 2023, 08:27:32 PM
I remember not being too worried down 7 at half. It reminded me of the scene from the Hustler when Paul Newman is initially beating Jackie Gleason like a drum. George C. Scott sizes up Newman and tells Gleason something to the effect of, "Keep playing. This guy's a loser." And Gleason wears him down.
(http://thecinemaarchives.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/george-c-scott-he-hustler.jpg)
Great flick. Willie Mosconi did some of the shots for the film and played a bit part. I believe Mosconi in an exhibition drained 550 straight shots.....or something like that Spaniel.
The Color of Money sucked btw.
Quote from: Goose on January 03, 2023, 07:57:01 PM
Tyler Kolek may end going down as one of my all time favorites before his career is over. I have liked him from day one and I hope they have some real success in March to enhance his legacy. He is a special college basketball player.
If you haven't read The Athletic article yet, you should. You'll be even more in like with Kolek than you already are!
He was masterful tonight. Ran the offense superbly, made one outstanding decision after another. Even hustled down for an offensive rebound bucket after Ross stole the ball but missed a layup.
We needed better PG play this season. We're getting it from TK. It helps even more that we have a second great facilitator on the floor in Oso. Our offense sure is a pleasure to watch most of the time.
Kolek is markedly more in control of his game and emotions this year. Makes 8 assists and 0 or 1 TOs look almost routine. He also sees the court in real time like a coach watching film. Love his game. He and Oso put on a passing clinic every game and Stevie, OMax and Kam have gotten really good at flashing at the right time for drop passes. High IQ basketball and very fun to watch.
Shaka Called out Butch being there in his post game radio interview. He always hits those program notes.
Did the team stay out east after Nova? Can't imagine how tough it'd be to go out and back in a four day span including new years.
Unacceptable that we pulled away to win by double-digits. Still stuck with that 1-4 record in close games.
So who's the first knob to call GT a trap game?
Quote from: PointWarrior on January 03, 2023, 10:21:24 PM
So who's the first knob to call GT a trap game?
Well the typical prediction knob GoldenEagles03 already called SJU a trap game.
Which was hilarious considering Gtown was the next oppenent. So I'm assuming hes going to double down and say it again for Saturday.
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on January 03, 2023, 10:39:27 PM
Well the typical prediction knob GoldenEagles03 already called SJU a trap game.
Which was hilarious considering Gtown was the next oppenent. So I'm assuming hes going to double down and say it again for Saturday.
Some of you are really pricks, to put it nicely.
The exact quote was
"Everything about this game screams trap for Marquette, but I trust this team to not fall into the trap.
This staff is good at hammering home the fact that you have to show up more desperate than the teams who are playing desperate."
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on January 03, 2023, 10:45:16 PM
Some of you are really pricks, to put it nicely.
The exact quote was
"Everything about this game screams trap for Marquette, but I trust this team to not fall into the trap.
This staff is good at hammering home the fact that you have to show up more desperate than the teams who are playing desperate."
Don't make yourself a target here or anywhere, they will get you.
Scoop is supposed to be an enjoyable place, like the local cafe or a place of worship!
Quote from: DoctorV on January 03, 2023, 11:02:42 PM
Don't make yourself a target here or anywhere, they will get you.
Scoop is supposed to be an enjoyable place, like the local cafe or a place of worship!
Being a target for saying I don't think Marquette will fall for a potential trap game tonight?
I came here to enjoy talking about my favorite basketball team, but if people are pricks for no reason then it'll be easy enjoy elsewhere.
According to the New York Post, our 96 points is the most ever scored by an opponent in regulation in that building, which opened in 1961. Very impressive.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 03, 2023, 09:40:07 PM
Did the team stay out east after Nova? Can't imagine how tough it'd be to go out and back in a four day span including new years.
They charter planes. It's not like they're sitting around waiting in airports for hours, stuck in hours long layovers, and crammed in seats with no leg room.
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on January 03, 2023, 11:14:09 PM
Being a target for saying I don't think Marquette will fall for a potential trap game tonight?
I came here to enjoy talking about my favorite basketball team, but if people are pricks for no reason then it'll be easy enjoy elsewhere.
You've threatened to leave like 17 times. This is the second time today.
I like winning in NY/NJ metro area.
The previous coach was 11-19 there.
This new guy is 2-1 already.
Much better!
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on January 03, 2023, 11:14:09 PM
Being a target for saying I don't think Marquette will fall for a potential trap game tonight?
I came here to enjoy talking about my favorite basketball team, but if people are pricks for no reason then it'll be easy enjoy elsewhere.
In case you don't know, a "trap game" is when you play a bad team right before playing a good team. It's a trap because the team is looking ahead to their game against the good team and not focusing on the bad team.
People are making fun of you because our next game is against Georgetown... the worst team in the conference. Last night wasn't a trap game. The Georgetown game could be.
Also, trap games are a myth. Just a fans way to blame their team laying an egg on something besides their team playing poorly.
Quote from: TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball on January 04, 2023, 06:48:57 AM
In case you don't know, a "trap game" is when you play a bad team right before playing a good team. It's a trap because the team is looking ahead to their game against the good team and not focusing on the bad team.
People are making fun of you because our next game is against Georgetown... the worst team in the conference. Last night wasn't a trap game. The Georgetown game could be.
Also, trap games are a myth. Just a fans way to blame their team laying an egg on something besides their team playing poorly.
Spot-On analysis here. A "trap game" is complete nonsense.
Quote from: MuggsyB on January 04, 2023, 06:55:56 AM
Spot-On analysis here. A "trap game" is complete nonsense.
Georgetown is a trap game. Have plenty of liquor available
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/157/itsatrap.jpg)
While Omax was a monster in the second half, I love how basically everyone is contributing. Oso was a bit quiet last night but still had a couple of really nice passes on the interior and defended well down the stretch. Kolek had a great game. Kam did what he does, and he seems to be getting pretty consistent at it. Stevie seems to finally be a part of the offense now. And the bench guys seem to consistently contribute solid minutes. It is definitely a team that is greater than the sum of its parts. Big, physical teams are going to give them trouble all season, however. We saw it with Providence and again with STJ. Don't know that Shaka has an answer for that.
Quote from: TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball link=topic=63966.msg1497282#msg1497282 date=
In case you don't know, a "trap game" is when you play a bad team right before playing a good team. It's a trap because the team is looking ahead to their game against the good team and not focusing on the bad team.
People are making fun of you because our next game is against Georgetown... the worst team in the conference. Last night wasn't a trap game. The Georgetown game could be.
Also, trap games are a myth. Just a fans way to blame their team laying an egg on something besides their team playing poorly.
Not a myth, and completely consistent with basic human psychology. It's the same thinking behind the proverb "Don't count your chickens before they hatch." It's hard to accept the notion that 18 to 20-year-old college students are immune from the tendency to look past the perceived easy win and ignore the subsequent challenge.
You could easily argue that we were a trap game for Baylor, them playing bottom-tier pick in the Big East mid-week in a game everyone expected them to easily win, followed by a big weekend rematch of the 2021 championship game against the #2 national preseason pick.
Similary, Chicago State was a trap game for us, following a big win over Georgia Tech, and prior to the game against Baylor. Against a team MU should have run out of the building from the tip, Chicago State led much of the first half and rallied to make the game uncomfortably close at the under 4 timeout.
The players aren't stupid. They know that Georgetown is terrible and UConn is likely the biggest game of the season. It's natural for them to lock in their minds an easy win on Saturday and already be thinking about UConn. And I'd be shocked if Shaka isn't working hard to keep them focused on Georgetown.
I dunno man, this team can probably hang a hundred on georgetown.
Quote from: The Equalizer on January 04, 2023, 10:21:55 AM
Not a myth, and completely consistent with basic human psychology. It's the same thinking behind the proverb "Don't count your chickens before they hatch." It's hard to accept the notion that 18 to 20-year-old college students are immune from the tendency to look past the perceived easy win and ignore the subsequent challenge.
You could easily argue that we were a trap game for Baylor, them playing bottom-tier pick in the Big East mid-week in a game everyone expected them to easily win, followed by a big weekend rematch of the 2021 championship game against the #2 national preseason pick.
Similary, Chicago State was a trap game for us, following a big win over Georgia Tech, and prior to the game against Baylor. Against a team MU should have run out of the building from the tip, Chicago State led much of the first half and rallied to make the game uncomfortably close at the under 4 timeout.
The players aren't stupid. They know that Georgetown is terrible and UConn is likely the biggest game of the season. It's natural for them to lock in their minds an easy win on Saturday and already be thinking about UConn. And I'd be shocked if Shaka isn't working hard to keep them focused on Georgetown.
Or you know, maybe we just played well against Baylor and they played poorly. If you believe KenPom numbers, were now the better team than Baylor so maybe we were just the better team playing at home.
For every game where a team played poorly in a "trap game" I can find you 5 examples where a team played as expected or better in one.
Quote from: TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball on January 04, 2023, 10:54:07 AM
For every game where a team played poorly in a "trap game" I can find you 5 examples where a team played as expected or better in one.
Yep. "Trap game" is about as meaningful as results by uniform color.
Quote from: rgoode57 on January 04, 2023, 09:40:30 AM
While Omax was a monster in the second half, I love how basically everyone is contributing. Oso was a bit quiet last night but still had a couple of really nice passes on the interior and defended well down the stretch. Kolek had a great game. Kam did what he does, and he seems to be getting pretty consistent at it. Stevie seems to finally be a part of the offense now. And the bench guys seem to consistently contribute solid minutes. It is definitely a team that is greater than the sum of its parts. Big, physical teams are going to give them trouble all season, however. We saw it with Providence and again with STJ. Don't know that Shaka has an answer for that.
Was watching some highlights and the commentator said about Oso's assist something along the lines of the upcoming assist highlight is NSFW because it is so nasty. ;D
Quote from: TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball link=topic=63966.msg1497406#msg1497406 date=
Or you know, maybe we just played well against Baylor and they played poorly.
The fact that Baylor played poorly wasn't in dispute. The question is why.
The most plausible explanation is that they took Marquette lightly and were already focused on Gonzaga for all the reasons I cited previously.
Quote from: TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball link=topic=63966.msg1497406#msg1497406 date=
If you believe KenPom numbers, were now the better team than Baylor so maybe we were just the better team playing at home.
Interesting Are you suggesting that Baylor had some secret knowledge on 11/29 as to what Ken Pom would show on 1/3?
Or is it more plausible to look at the facts that at the time the game was played, Baylor was more influenced by the 9th place Big East prediction and thus took their oppontent lightly?
Quote from: TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball link=topic=63966.msg1497406#msg1497406 date=
For every game where a team played poorly in a "trap game" I can find you 5 examples where a team played as expected or better in one.
I think you inadvertently prove the reality of trap games.
5 out of 6 rather than 6 out of 6? A 17% failure rate is high enough to suggest that poor results in trap games happen frequently enough to suggest the phenomenon is real.
Quote from: The Equalizer on January 04, 2023, 01:02:15 PM
The most plausible explanation is that they took Marquette lightly and were already focused on Gonzaga for all the reasons I cited previously.
Is it though???
Quote from: The Equalizer on January 04, 2023, 01:02:15 PM
The most plausible explanation is that they took Marquette lightly and were already focused on Gonzaga for all the reasons I cited previously.
Ladies and gentlemen, proof that you cannot in fact fix stupid.
Not sure if this was posted anywhere yet or not but Butch Lee with the team after the game. Pretty cool!
https://twitter.com/MarquetteMBB/status/1610694962806505472?t=FR88YoW4Kyawq8zeg21c1g&s=19
Quote from: The Equalizer on January 04, 2023, 01:02:15 PM
The fact that Baylor played poorly wasn't in dispute. The question is why.
The most plausible explanation is that they took Marquette lightly and were already focused on Gonzaga for all the reasons I cited previously.
Show your work here. How can you possibly state this as a certainty?
Quote from: The Equalizer on January 04, 2023, 01:02:15 PM
Interesting Are you suggesting that Baylor had some secret knowledge on 11/29 as to what Ken Pom would show on 1/3?
That's not what I was saying. I'm saying now we have more information now than we did. Maybe one of the reasons for the score was that we are just better than Baylor and playing at home.
Quote from: The Equalizer on January 04, 2023, 01:02:15 PM
I think you inadvertently prove the reality of trap games.
5 out of 6 rather than 6 out of 6? A 17% failure rate is high enough to suggest that poor results in trap games happen frequently enough to suggest the phenomenon is real.
....So every time a team plays poorly in a "trap game", 100% of the time it is because they were looking ahead to their next opponent. Again, show your work here.
Quote from: barfolomew on January 03, 2023, 08:10:07 PM
Road wins in the BE are great, no matter where they are.
And I subscribe to the tenet that defense travels.
However, I think MU's defense inadvertently flew into Newark and got turned around in Penn Station before making it to Queens for the second half.
Why? Home team only wins 60% of the time
Quote from: TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball link=topic=63966.msg1497479#msg1497479 date=
Show your work here. How can you possibly state this as a certainty?
I didn't state it as a certainty. I said it was the most plausible explanation. BTW, you haven't shown your work that proves trap games are a myth.
Quote from: TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball link=topic=63966.msg1497479#msg1497479 date=
That's not what I was saying. I'm saying now we have more information now than we did. Maybe one of the reasons for the score was that we are just better than Baylor and playing at home.
But that information wasn't available at the time the game was played, which means it is entirely possible for Baylor to have taken MU lightly as an opponent and got caught looking ahead to Gonzaga. For you to use this as evidence that trap games are a myth, you would have to demonstrate that Baylor knew that MU was a better team at the time the game was played (not 5 weeks later).
Quote from: TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball link=topic=63966.msg1497479#msg1497479 date=
....So every time a team plays poorly in a "trap game", 100% of the time it is because they were looking ahead to their next opponent. Again, show your work here.
How about you show your work that proves 100% of the time it's a myth that teams look past a lightly regarded opponent to a high-profile game that follows?
But since you asked, using KenPom's numbers from 11/4, MU should have been favored by only 0.7 points because they're better and then add 3.5 points for home-court advantage. There's almost no chance a 26 point margin can be explained by the combination of MU being a better team and playing at home--which means there's a very high likelihood that there are other factors at play.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CollegeBasketball/comments/5xir8t/calculating_win_probability_and_margin_of_victory/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/CollegeBasketball/comments/5xir8t/calculating_win_probability_and_margin_of_victory/)
People put way too much stock into the psychology of these athletes. They had a bad game because they had a bigger game a couple days later. They are more dangerous because they've lost a couple games in a row and are now desperate.
Not many athletes at the level these guys are at are showing up to gyms thinking, "Eh, they're not good. I don't have to play very hard tonight." Or, "we're in good shape, we don't need a win this badly."
Kids show up to every game in order to win.
Sometimes bad teams can put a scare into (or even beat) a good team because they just have a better night. Doesn't mean the star SG for the better team was dreaming up the defenses the top 10 team they're playing in a few days are going to be using against him and he forgot how to attack the defense he was facing that night.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 05, 2023, 11:12:30 AM
People put way too much stock into the psychology of these athletes. They had a bad game because they had a bigger game a couple days later. They are more dangerous because they've lost a couple games in a row and are now desperate.
Not many athletes at the level these guys are at are showing up to gyms thinking, "Eh, they're not good. I don't have to play very hard tonight." Or, "we're in good shape, we don't need a win this badly."
Kids show up to every game in order to win.
Sometimes bad teams can put a scare into (or even beat) a good team because they just have a better night. Doesn't mean the star SG for the better team was dreaming up the defenses the top 10 team they're playing in a few days are going to be using against him and he forgot how to attack the defense he was facing that night.
Exactly. People think a guy is standing at the free-throw line thinking: "This game is going on, but the one I
really want is Tuesday's." It's ridiculous. Athletes are wired to compete.
Quote from: MU82 on January 05, 2023, 01:26:10 PM
Exactly. People think a guy is standing at the free-throw line thinking: "This game is going on, but the one I really want is Tuesday's." It's ridiculous. Athletes are wired to compete.
While true taking your foot off the gas too early and going cold is 100% a thing. But yeah I'd say it's more likely that a player didn't sleep the night before, or has a cold, a bad day, has to take a dump, etc etc than it is that there's a real trap game where an entire team is in La La land about the next game.
Caveat is I do think there's a post big win lull that a team can start thinking they're bigger than they are and throw away a game due to lacking intensity that got them there.
Quote from: The Equalizer on January 05, 2023, 10:32:28 AM
I didn't state it as a certainty. I said it was the most plausible explanation. BTW, you haven't shown your work that proves trap games are a myth.
You misunderstand. I was questioning how you could say that was "the most plausible explanation" as a certainty. I can think of over a dozen more plausible explanations.
Quote from: The Equalizer on January 05, 2023, 10:32:28 AM
But that information wasn't available at the time the game was played, which means it is entirely possible for Baylor to have taken MU lightly as an opponent and got caught looking ahead to Gonzaga. For you to use this as evidence that trap games are a myth, you would have to demonstrate that Baylor knew that MU was a better team at the time the game was played (not 5 weeks later).
But since you asked, using KenPom's numbers from 11/4, MU should have been favored by only 0.7 points because they're better and then add 3.5 points for home-court advantage. There's almost no chance a 26 point margin can be explained by the combination of MU being a better team and playing at home--which means there's a very high likelihood that there are other factors at play.
Again you are trying to counter an argument I didn't make. I'm not challenging that the Baylor game didn't meet the definition of what people refer to as a trap game. It did. I'm challenging that the most plausible explanation is that Baylor was daydreaming about playing Gonzaga in a few days and suggesting that a more plausible explanation is that we are the better team and were playing at home and that we played closer to our ceiling than they did to theirs. The "other factors at play" are the realities that basketball players aren't robots and basketball isn't played on paper. Sometimes teams play close to their ceiling. Sometimes they play close to their floor. On nights where a better team is playing close to their ceiling and a worse team is playing close to their floor, a 26 point margin can be the result.
Quote from: The Equalizer on January 05, 2023, 10:32:28 AM
How about you show your work that proves 100% of the time it's a myth that teams look past a lightly regarded opponent to a high-profile game that follows?
I'll be honest, I don't have it. To prove it, I would need to somehow filter out the results of "trap games" and compare those results to the results of all games where a better team plays a worse team and even then there would be limitations in the study. If you want to take that on, be my guest. But you need to acknowledge that you have offered nothing but the observation that sometimes (not even often just sometimes) good teams don't play well against bad teams in "trap games" (this of course also happens in non-trap games all the time) and your opinion that it must be because players/coaches are overlooking the opponent and thinking about their next game.
What I do have is the reality that you will not find any evidence of coaches or players stating that they are looking past their next opponent or don't have to take a opponent seriously. You will find ample evidence of coaches and players saying that they are focused on their next game regardless of the quality of opponent. As annoying as Wades' "The next game is the most important game of the season" schtick is, it's 100% true for players and coaches (not true for us bums on scoop). I think any coach who overlooks their next opponent or lets their players overlook their next opponent will not be a coach for very long.
but what about a trap game played in baby blue uniforms?
Quote from: MU82 on January 04, 2023, 10:57:50 AM
Yep. "Trap game" is about as meaningful as results by uniform color.
Quote from: MU82 on January 05, 2023, 01:26:10 PM
Exactly. People think a guy is standing at the free-throw line thinking: "This game is going on, but the one I really want is Tuesday's." It's ridiculous. Athletes are wired to compete.
I'm not saying trap games are real, but the people who think they are definitely don't think this.
Quote from: TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball on January 05, 2023, 01:57:03 PM
The "other factors at play" are the realities that basketball players aren't robots and basketball isn't played on paper. Sometimes teams play close to their ceiling. Sometimes they play close to their floor. On nights where a better team is playing close to their ceiling and a worse team is playing close to their floor, a 26 point margin can be the result.
I think that this is not debatable. I also don't think it's necessarily inconsistent with the entire trap game theory. The key question is
why a team plays close to their floor. For the record, I'm not particularly a proponent of the trap game theory. But succeeding in high level sports requires focus. When players (or teams) lose focus for some reason (fight with girlfriend, problems at home, not feeling well, exhaustion, etc.) they are more prone to playing near their floor. I think that what the "trap game" advocates are suggesting is that having a big game coming up can cause a team to lose focus and thus play closer to their floor.
I think some teams "play to the level of their opponent" because of the style their opponent brings. When you're playing a team that is hot garbage, a lot of times it gets chaotic and/or choppy. A lot of whistles and dead ball turnovers can cause the game to slow down and be ugly. When you're playing a better opponent things can be cleaner and you get more into the flow of the game. I don't think it's often because teams just think the opponent stinks so we're not going to play hard.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on January 05, 2023, 02:43:51 PM
I think that this is not debatable. I also don't think it's necessarily inconsistent with the entire trap game theory. The key question is why a team plays close to their floor. For the record, I'm not particularly a proponent of the trap game theory. But succeeding in high level sports requires focus. When players (or teams) lose focus for some reason (fight with girlfriend, problems at home, not feeling well, exhaustion, etc.) they are more prone to playing near their floor. I think that what the "trap game" advocates are suggesting is that having a big game coming up can cause a team to lose focus and thus play closer to their floor.
I think there are literally 1000s of factors that can impact a player's focus and I think the ones you listed are much more likely to have a meaningful impact than "looking past a bad opponent" and thinking about an upcoming good opponent. I also think there are a ton of more practical factors that go in to a team's play than a player's focus. Chief among them is that players are not robots. You can have a clearheaded player, alone in a gym taking shots from the same spot. He could make the first 10 and on the next 10 miss 3. It doesn't mean there's a "reason" he shot worse on the second ten, he's just a human trying his best and no human can play perfectly all the time even in the best of conditions.
Quote from: PointWarrior on January 05, 2023, 02:16:53 PM
but what about a trap game played in baby blue uniforms?
On national TV! Double whammy!