39-35
I didn't think we had it in us?!? Let's go and get some Ws in NYC!!
Kur was pretty active - good to see us win a rebound war
Is that a first for this squad? I know, but I'm as lazy as VBMG.
Quote from: mileskishnish72 on March 05, 2022, 10:39:00 PM
Is that a first for this squad? I know, but I'm as lazy as VBMG.
Also, how often is SJU out-rebounded? Also lazy.
Yea I was looking for a rebounding thread to comment on this.
I asked in the game thread if StJ is statistically a poor rebounding team or if MU just rebounded well?
7 for JLew and Kur, 6 for Darryl and Greg, 4 for Oso and Kolek.
Guards doing it was nice, and bigs being active on the glass.
That said, johnnies play fast and loose, not slow and tight. The slow and tight big bodied fundamentally sound teams are the ones that give Marquette fits on the glass
Greg is an underrated rebounder. Best hands on the team. Worst legs though.
Quote from: Spaniel with a Short Tail on March 05, 2022, 11:25:09 PM
Greg is an underrated rebounder. Best hands on the team. Worst legs though.
Plus gives me high blood pressure when he dribbles or is inbounding the ball.
Sorry, but St John's rebounded better than we did last night
Quote from: Jay Bee on March 06, 2022, 09:20:26 AM
Sorry, but St John's rebounded better than we did last night
+1
Rebounding margin is not a thing. Johnnies rebounded better offensively and defensively.
Agreed, but it was one of our better defensive rebounding performances. Allowed SJU to grab 22.2% of their misses, much better than our season average of 31.3%
I still see JLew/DM/GE/OMP miss a block out.....opposing team gets the off reb and puts pressure on Kur/Oso.....who then commit a foul......yesterday for several and ones.
When JLew wants to he can be the beat def rebounder on the floor.
Nice to see a few off rebounds and put backs by our guys yesterday. It seems like a rare feat.
"Tell me you never played basketball without telling me you never played basketball ."
Nothing better than the "but actually" guys. What does "rebounding margin is not a thing" even mean? We had more rebounds than our opponent did. Thus, we outrebounded them. They had a better rebounding percentage. Cool. We still competed on the glass and pulled down more rebounds than our opponent.
The computer metrics and efficiency analytics are great. But they've also gone too far. Providence is the outright Big East champion, 24-4, and 13-3 in the conference. Their actual results in the numbers that actually matter (see: winning games) say they deserve a one seed. But because we have nerds who can crunch numbers in an algorithm we're going to give them a 4 seed because their "predictive metrics" say they are the 16th best team. We've played the entire schedule. Who the eff cares about "predictive." They won 24 games and lost 4 in a top 5 conference. That has to mean more than an algorithm.
It's not about computer metrics or analytics. Rebounding is common sense. Offensive & defensive rebounding are completely different animals; combining them makes no sense. It's idiotic.
Quote from: WithoutBias on March 06, 2022, 11:19:51 AM
"Tell me you never played basketball without telling me you never played basketball ."
Nothing better than the "but actually" guys. What does "rebounding margin is not a thing" even mean? We had more rebounds than our opponent did. Thus, we outrebounded them. They had a better rebounding percentage. Cool. We still competed on the glass and pulled down more rebounds than our opponent.
I'll explain it with an example
Team A Shoots 30-60 from the field and has 10 offensive rebounds
Team B Shoots 25-65 from the field and has 12 offensive rebounds
Who rebounded better?
You might think that Team B rebounded better because they had 12 and Team A had 10.
But that is incorrect. Team A missed 30 shots so only had 30 opportunities to get an offensive rebound, which they did 10 times. Or, you could say they got an offensive rebound 33% of the time on missed shots.
Team B missed 40 shots and so had 40 opportunities for an offensive board, which they did 12 times. Or you could say that they got an offensive rebound 30% of the time on missed shots.
So the raw numbers are somewhat meaningless because you can't get an offensive rebound on a made shot. So the rate of which you rebound is more indicative of your rebounding prowess that they actual number.
Quote from: WithoutBias on March 06, 2022, 11:19:51 AM
"Tell me you never played basketball without telling me you never played basketball ."
Nothing better than the "but actually" guys. What does "rebounding margin is not a thing" even mean? We had more rebounds than our opponent did. Thus, we outrebounded them. They had a better rebounding percentage. Cool. We still competed on the glass and pulled down more rebounds than our opponent.
The computer metrics and efficiency analytics are great. But they've also gone too far. Providence is the outright Big East champion, 24-4, and 13-3 in the conference. Their actual results in the numbers that actually matter (see: winning games) say they deserve a one seed. But because we have nerds who can crunch numbers in an algorithm we're going to give them a 4 seed because their "predictive metrics" say they are the 16th best team. We've played the entire schedule. Who the eff cares about "predictive." They won 24 games and lost 4 in a top 5 conference. That has to mean more than an algorithm.
But actually - PC didn't play a full schedule.
We should just stop playing the tourney and let predictive analytics crown a championship. And use the "value add" metric and you don't even have to play the regular season.
Quote from: WithoutBias on March 06, 2022, 11:19:51 AM
"Tell me you never played basketball without telling me you never played basketball ."
Nothing better than the "but actually" guys. What does "rebounding margin is not a thing" even mean? We had more rebounds than our opponent did. Thus, we outrebounded them. They had a better rebounding percentage. Cool. We still competed on the glass and pulled down more rebounds than our opponent.
The computer metrics and efficiency analytics are great. But they've also gone too far. Providence is the outright Big East champion, 24-4, and 13-3 in the conference. Their actual results in the numbers that actually matter (see: winning games) say they deserve a one seed. But because we have nerds who can crunch numbers in an algorithm we're going to give them a 4 seed because their "predictive metrics" say they are the 16th best team. We've played the entire schedule. Who the eff cares about "predictive." They won 24 games and lost 4 in a top 5 conference. That has to mean more than an algorithm.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on March 06, 2022, 01:52:06 PM
I'll explain it with an example
Team A Shoots 30-60 from the field and has 10 offensive rebounds
Team B Shoots 25-65 from the field and has 12 offensive rebounds
Who rebounded better?
You might think that Team B rebounded better because they had 12 and Team A had 10.
But that is incorrect. Team A missed 30 shots so only had 30 opportunities to get an offensive rebound, which they did 10 times. Or, you could say they got an offensive rebound 33% of the time on missed shots.
Team B missed 40 shots and so had 40 opportunities for an offensive board, which they did 12 times. Or you could say that they got an offensive rebound 30% of the time on missed shots.
So the raw numbers are somewhat meaningless because you can't get an offensive rebound on a made shot. So the rate of which you rebound is more indicative of your rebounding prowess that they actual number.
Right. I get it. Nobody even said we rebounded better. But we did our rebound a team.
Quote from: panda on March 06, 2022, 02:13:51 PM
But actually - PC didn't play a full schedule.
And?
Quote from: WithoutBias on March 06, 2022, 03:24:33 PM
Right. I get it. Nobody even said we rebounded better. But we did our rebound a team.
And?
That only matters if opportunities are equal. But they weren't. On Marquette's offensive end of the court, there were 37 total rebounds available. On St John's end, it was 45. That's why percentages matter and "rebounding margin" is a bad measuring stick that shouldn't be used.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 06, 2022, 03:44:16 PM
That only matters if opportunities are equal. But they weren't. On Marquette's offensive end of the court, there were 37 total rebounds available. On St John's end, it was 45. That's why percentages matter and "rebounding margin" is a bad measuring stick that shouldn't be used.
Man. I sound like a broken record.
I understand this. Nobody said we rebounded better than St. John's. The poster said we outrebounded them. Which we did. He even gave the numbers.
The reciting KenPom.com percentages crowd gets really annoying. Why everything has to be "but actually'd" is wild.
If people wanted KenPom to tell them who did what better by percentages and analytics they can subscribe there.
My point really was in the big east I have no idea what our rebound percentage has been...but I guess crappie! I do know when I look at the box score we are usually completely crushed in raw numbers and when I watch the games I feel frustrated with how many offensive boards we give up and how few we get.
Last night I didn't feel completely frustrated and the raw numbers were in our favor for once.
Quote from: WithoutBias on March 06, 2022, 03:24:33 PM
Right. I get it. Nobody even said we rebounded better. But we did our rebound a team.
And?
They didn't make up q1 road games against Creighton and seton hall as well as UConn at home.
Quote from: WithoutBias on March 06, 2022, 03:48:47 PM
Man. I sound like a broken record.
I understand this. Nobody said we rebounded better than St. John's. The poster said we outrebounded them. Which we did. He even gave the numbers.
The reciting KenPom.com percentages crowd gets really annoying. Why everything has to be "but actually'd" is wild.
If people wanted KenPom to tell them who did what better by percentages and analytics they can subscribe there.
Let me guess, you still think Wins is the best measure of a good starting pitcher
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 06, 2022, 04:19:21 PM
Let me guess, you still think Wins is the best measure of a good starting pitcher
I never did. So no.
I didn't even make this thread. Maybe the OP did.
I do think wins is the best measure of a basketball team though.
And I can subscribe to KenPom if I want to know assist percentage or rebound percentage. Posters here seem to think they're super smart basketball minds because they can copy and paste a number they got off of KenPom.com. It's not overly impressive.
Quote from: WithoutBias on March 06, 2022, 04:23:45 PM
It's not overly impressive.
Neither is what you're doing right now
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 06, 2022, 10:25:29 AM
I still see JLew/DM/GE/OMP miss a block out.....opposing team gets the off reb and puts pressure on Kur/Oso.....who then commit a foul......yesterday for several and ones.
This.
There were two straight possessions in the second half where we didn't get a defensive board because one of our guys just watched the ball while a StJ player swooped past him for the rebound. Once was Morsell, the other I think was O-Max. Ugh!
Several of our guys have bad hands -- they get both hands on the ball but just don't grab it. We also have skinny bigs who often get outmuscled. And sometimes we have bad luck on long rebounds. But those things don't explain why we so often have such poor rebounding fundamentals.
Everybody on the team has been playing basketball for years. Plus, they've now been playing together, under this coaching staff, for an entire season. And yet all too often our guys still do not find a man, put a body on him, seal him off, and go get the basketball -- or as the high school coach I used to work for would say:
"Hit, and git!" It's been a crazy season, with lots of surprises (most of them positive), but I think my biggest surprise is that we're still a fundamentally poor rebounding team after all this time. Frustrating.
Quote from: WithoutBias on March 06, 2022, 04:23:45 PM
I do think wins is the best measure of a basketball team though.
So you believe S Dakota St is better than Kentucky?
Quote from: Jay Bee on March 06, 2022, 06:13:41 PM
So you believe S Dakota St is better than Kentucky?
No.
But I do think that a team that wins 6 straight NCAA Tournament games by 6 total points is a national champion while a 1 seed that beats a 16 seed by 45 and then loses to an 8 seed by 1 in overtime is a choke artist.
Now go beg people to buy you beer and give you cheap tickets some more. Or send people screenshots of your permaban and have them post them on Scoop for you to get posters to pity you, only to not have been permabanned.
Quote from: WithoutBias on March 06, 2022, 06:43:08 PM
No.
But I do think that a team that wins 6 straight NCAA Tournament games by 6 total points is a national champion while a 1 seed that beats a 16 seed by 45 and then loses to an 8 seed by 1 in overtime is a choke artist.
Now go beg people to buy you beer and give you cheap tickets some more. Or send people screenshots of your permaban and have them post them on Scoop for you to get posters to pity you, only to not have been permabanned.
Violence! You sound older than me...
Quote from: WithoutBias on March 06, 2022, 06:43:08 PM
No.
But I do think that a team that wins 6 straight NCAA Tournament games by 6 total points is a national champion while a 1 seed that beats a 16 seed by 45 and then loses to an 8 seed by 1 in overtime is a choke artist.
Now go beg people to buy you beer and give you cheap tickets some more. Or send people screenshots of your permaban and have them post them on Scoop for you to get posters to pity you, only to not have been permabanned.
Got it. When you said "wins is (sic) the best measure of a basketball team" you didn't mean it.
I remember this one time we scored more points than an opponent, but lost the game because they were more efficient...
Quote from: oldwarrior81 on March 06, 2022, 07:43:53 PM
I remember this one time we scored more points than an opponent, but lost the game because they were more efficient...
#mathnomatta
Quote from: Jay Bee on March 06, 2022, 07:31:24 PM
Got it. When you said "wins is (sic) the best measure of a basketball team" you didn't mean it.
"Wins" is the single measure. Might want to learn the English language if you're going to play grammar police. You're a numbers nerd who plays tough guy by copying and pasting stuff literally anyone can get by paying $20 to KenPom.com and you play it off like you're this incredible basketball mind.
But thank you for your service. Your providing KenPom numbers saves Scoopers $20/year.
Quote from: WithoutBias on March 06, 2022, 07:51:40 PM
"Wins" is the single measure. Might want to learn the English language if you're going to play grammar police. You're a numbers nerd who plays tough guy by copying and pasting stuff literally anyone can get by paying $20 to KenPom.com and you play it off like you're this incredible basketball mind.
But thank you for your service. Your providing KenPom numbers saves Scoopers $20/year.
Have a Snickers.
Quote from: oldwarrior81 on March 06, 2022, 07:43:53 PM
I remember this one time we scored more points than an opponent, but lost the game because they were more efficient...
Technically that is possible but only in a very narrow set of circumstances. In a game that doesn't go to overtime, the maximum difference in total possessions between teams is 2. And that can only happen if you win the tip, there's an odd number of jump balls in the first half, you get the last possession of the first half, and the last possession of the game. If all of that doesn't happen, you are either going to have an equal number of possessions or the team that won the tip is going to have 1 more possession. So given that the number of possessions is usually close to equal, the more efficient team is going to win the vast majority of the time...though I think it is theoretically possible for a team to be slightly less efficient than their opponent but win because they got an extra 1 or 2 possessions.
And yes, I know this was a joke that I'm responding to. And no WhiteTrash, I didn't write this to be impressive, I just legitimately enjoy talking about this stuff with other college basketball fans.
Quote from: WithoutBias on March 06, 2022, 07:51:40 PM
"Wins" is the single measure. Might want to learn the English language if you're going to play grammar police. You're a numbers nerd who plays tough guy by copying and pasting stuff literally anyone can get by paying $20 to KenPom.com and you play it off like you're this incredible basketball mind.
But thank you for your service. Your providing KenPom numbers saves Scoopers $20/year.
Ask mom to up your allowance so you can join the elites, bud.
A win-loss record is not a valid way to compare to D1 teams. You know better. Dry the tears and do better.
Quote from: Jay Bee on March 06, 2022, 09:25:28 PM
Ask mom to up your allowance so you can join the elites, bud.
A win-loss record is not a valid way to compare to D1 teams. You know better. Dry the tears and do better.
I'll ask mom to up my allowance so I can pay for the beers and ticket deals you're begging internet strangers for. Mr. Elite.
How much did the removal of the permaban you had your Scoop buddies post about cost to get rid of?
Quote from: WithoutBias on March 06, 2022, 09:35:13 PM
I'll ask mom to up my allowance so I can pay for the beers and ticket deals you're begging internet strangers for. Mr. Elite.
How much did the removal of the permaban you had your Scoop buddies post about cost to get rid of?
Ask mom if you should believe everything you read on the internet.
PS - still need tix to Thursday's session!!
Quote from: WithoutBias on March 06, 2022, 09:35:13 PM
I'll ask mom to up my allowance so I can pay for the beers and ticket deals you're begging internet strangers for. Mr. Elite.
How much did the removal of the permaban you had your Scoop buddies post about cost to get rid of?
Wow you're played.....
Quote from: Newsdreams on March 06, 2022, 09:48:11 PM
Wow you're played.....
I think we can all agree with both the metrics and the "eye test" that we're all glad we're on Providence's side of the bracket. No one cares about their win loss record. They are not the best team in the conference and likely would have lost a couple more games had they played them.
A 3 or 4 seed is appropriate for them.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on March 07, 2022, 05:35:52 AM
They are not the best team in the conference and likely would have lost a couple more games had they played them.
OK, but even had they played the 3 games they missed, worst case is 14-6 (assuming they didn't spiral down from one of the losses) and 2nd place in the BE. They have more BE wins than everyone but Nova, and managed to NOT lose to UConn, Xavier, Butler, DePaul, and Creighton. I think our glass house has some cracks.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 07, 2022, 09:18:31 AM
OK, but even had they played the 3 games they missed, worst case is 14-6 (assuming they didn't spiral down from one of the losses) and 2nd place in the BE. They have more BE wins than everyone but Nova, and managed to NOT lose to UConn, Xavier, Butler, DePaul, and Creighton. I think our glass house has some cracks.
Agreed. Was PC a tad lucky? Yeah. Could MU easily have lost the Illinois game if Cockburn played, the Seton Hall game if we didn't get a super favorable call, didn't have to play SJU in NYC, etc., etc. Those play out slightly differently and we're an NIT team. Every team has some luck. Perhaps PC more than others. But they're a really good team.
Now would I rather play PC than Nova or UCONN? Absolutely.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on March 07, 2022, 09:27:15 AM
Now would I rather play PC than Nova or UCONN? Absolutely.
Yeah, watching the Nova/Butler game, Nova looked like they are ready to run through the BET.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on March 07, 2022, 05:35:52 AM
I think we can all agree with both the metrics and the "eye test" that we're all glad we're on Providence's side of the bracket. No one cares about their win loss record. They are not the best team in the conference...
Anybody that disagrees with this either isn't paying attention or is just trying to stir the pot. Providence is a very good basketball team and has had a great season - their accomplishments are real. But I'm
really happy Marquette ended up on their side of the bracket. That's not to say that I think that if they end up playing in the semis MU will have a cake walk or anything -- Providence would rightly be favored -- but I'd still rather play Providence than Nova or UCONN.