Assuming Lewis declares and Elliott leaves (5 years here is plenty), we need to get a 4 and 5 from grad transfer pool.
Oso neither protects the rim nor rebounds. Going w/only him and redshirt Itejere at the 5 is a recipe for disaster.
Can't expect another Lewis to fall in our lap, but a rebounding-oriented 4 is good enough. Expecting Joplin to improve and provide scoring from that spot
I agree with the list.
But, Joplin is about 6' 5". Not gonna help much in the post.
Quote from: Mu8891 on February 20, 2022, 05:09:29 PM
I agree with the list.
But, Joplin is about 6' 5". Not gonna help much in the post.
Did Joplin shrink? Per the roster he's 6'7". Keep in mind that 6'10" Henry Gold plays next year. Do you really think Lewis is going any where next year. He stunk yesterday. He needs 2 more years at Marquette.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on February 21, 2022, 07:52:54 AM
Did Joplin shrink? Per the roster he's 6'7". Keep in mind that 6'10" Henry Gold plays next year. Do you really think Lewis is going any where next year. He stunk yesterday. He needs 2 more years at Marquette.
*Ben Gold
Rebounding, post defense, and talent.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on February 21, 2022, 07:52:54 AM
Do you really think Lewis is going any where next year. He stunk yesterday. He needs 2 more years at Marquette.
Shows a complete lack of understanding of these situations.
Blue, Ellenson, Bailey and Carton also "needed" more time at Marquette, but they all said buy-bye anyway. And that's just our guys. Over the years, hundreds of college players who "needed" more time have instead gone pro. And, when they were eligible for the draft, high school players did, too.
As for Lewis ... good players do have bad games sometimes.
Hit up the WAC and try to get Fardaws Aimaq to replace Kur & Teddy Allen if Justin goes pro.
Guys come and guys go, all part of game today. I am not overly worried about who ends up leaving and believe we will have better roster a year from now. Plus, if either Omax or Oso can have 50% of the improvement Lewis had this year they will be very hard to defend.
Quote from: MU82 on February 21, 2022, 08:02:14 AM
Shows a complete lack of understanding of these situations.
Blue, Ellenson, Bailey and Carton also "needed" more time at Marquette, but they all said buy-bye anyway. And that's just our guys. Over the years, hundreds of college players who "needed" more time have instead gone pro. And, when they were eligible for the draft, high school players did, too.
As for Lewis ... good players do have bad games sometimes.
The players you cited would have done better if they didn't drop out. Are you really a Marquette fan or a troll like you often seem?
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on February 21, 2022, 10:36:18 AMThe players you cited would have done better if they didn't drop out.
There's no evidence of this. It seems unlikely they would get better training and preparation for the next level in college, where they have to split efforts between class and restricted training opportunities (NCAA limits how much you can practice/train, professional avenues do not).
I know we love the myth of guys not being ready and the idea they will improve at this level more than they would in the G-League or overseas, but I don't think there's much actual evidence showing it to be accurate.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on February 21, 2022, 10:36:18 AM
The players you cited would have done better if they didn't drop out. Are you really a Marquette fan or a troll like you often seem?
Lol
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 21, 2022, 11:20:43 AM
Lol
It's an antiquated belief that you can only improve your game at the college level. Selfishly I want talented players to stay, but in this day and age, there are many more paths to the NBA which don't include college.
Frankly competing on a professional stage will more than likely turn into a better option overall than college in the future.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on February 21, 2022, 10:36:18 AM
The players you cited would have done better if they didn't drop out. Are you really a Marquette fan or a troll like you often seem?
You said:
Do you really think Lewis is going any where next year. He stunk yesterday. He needs 2 more years at Marquette.Again, it's not about whether or not the players would have done better if they didn't leave Marquette. Clearly, you didn't think Blue, Ellenson, Bailey and Carton would "drop out," either. But they did ... even though you thought they "needed" more time at Marquette.
I won't accuse you of being a troll, just a person who lacks basic understanding of the situation, and then doubles-down on his ignorance.
You also apparently don't know that "anywhere" is one word.
Most players who leave "early" aren't "ready" for the NBA. They develop.
Not to mention, when you have weaknesses in your game but you're 19 teams will pay you. When you're 23 and have the same weaknesses in your game, teams are less likely to pay you. Justin's lateral quickness isn't going to significantly improve in his time at Marquette. So instead of teams still seeing his weakness after 4 years of college, he might as well go now and get paid while he can.
Same issue Hank had (but he was a better ball handler and was taller). Had Hank hung around in college to improve on that weakness he would've been paid nothing by NBA teams. Instead, he went when he "wasn't ready" but when he was offered millions of dollars, and he started his career with $6M in the NBA.
The difference with Ellenson was that he was a first round pick and had 3 year guarantee which is awesome. 2nd rounders get no guarantees. He is young turning
20 in March, so if he would comeback to MU for one more year, he will mature more as a person and on the court. How many times have you seen him put his head
down after a bad play and barely runs back?
Quote from: BCHoopster on February 21, 2022, 01:22:07 PM
The difference with Ellenson was that he was a first round pick and had 3 year guarantee which is awesome. 2nd rounders get no guarantees. He is young turning
20 in March, so if he would comeback to MU for one more year, he will mature more as a person and on the court. How many times have you seen him put his head
down after a bad play and barely runs back?
Why can't he mature on and off the course in the G-League or an NBA bench?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 21, 2022, 01:37:50 PM
Why can't he mature on and off the course in the G-League or an NBA bench?
Yes he could.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 21, 2022, 01:37:50 PM
Why can't he mature on and off the course in the G-League or an NBA bench?
College basketball players can only improve their game playing for my favorite college team. If they go anywhere else to better themselves, they're dead to me.
Quote from: BLM on February 21, 2022, 12:50:31 PM
Most players who leave "early" aren't "ready" for the NBA. They develop.
Not to mention, when you have weaknesses in your game but you're 19 teams will pay you. When you're 23 and have the same weaknesses in your game, teams are less likely to pay you. Justin's lateral quickness isn't going to significantly improve in his time at Marquette. So instead of teams still seeing his weakness after 4 years of college, he might as well go now and get paid while he can.
Same issue Hank had (but he was a better ball handler and was taller). Had Hank hung around in college to improve on that weakness he would've been paid nothing by NBA teams. Instead, he went when he "wasn't ready" but when he was offered millions of dollars, and he started his career with $6M in the NBA.
I generally agree, but Ellenson and Lewis's situations are a little different. Hank arrived at MU an almost sure fire one and done, solidly on the NBA's radar since HS. He was projected mid first round or higher throughout his freshman year. So, very little (if any) upside to staying. If I'm Justin, I'm leaning towards going - If I'm guaranteed the 1st round (or even if it looks likely) I go. If not, maybe I bet on myself to improve as much from year 2 to 3 as I did from year 1 to 2.
Quote from: panda on February 21, 2022, 11:24:10 AM
It's an antiquated belief that you can only improve your game at the college level. Selfishly I want talented players to stay, but in this day and age, there are many more paths to the NBA which don't include college.
Frankly competing on a professional stage will more than likely turn into a better option overall than college in the future.
Maybe I'm old school, but I don't buy the argument "players can develop just as much overseas, on an NBA bench or in the G-league" generalization. Much of making it in professional sports is about the opportunity to shine and situational. Sure, there's some very talented players that can step into those other platforms and use them as a springboard, but for a player like Justin Lewis who has the opportunity to return and be the featured option on a potential tournament team who could potentially go for a deep run next year, I just don't see the grass being any greener with those other options.
Sure, if he's a projected first round pick or early second this year I can't blame him for making the jump, but playing time is playing time and he'll learn a hell of a lot more leading the golden eagles than he would riding the pine at the end of the bench somewhere.
Quote from: BCHoopster on February 21, 2022, 01:22:07 PM
The difference with Ellenson was that he was a first round pick and had 3 year guarantee which is awesome. 2nd rounders get no guarantees. He is young turning
20 in March, so if he would comeback to MU for one more year, he will mature more as a person and on the court. How many times have you seen him put his head
down after a bad play and barely runs back?
On a few occasions this season, including as recently as the Georgetown game, Morsell has hung his head and had bad body language after a bad play. He is a 23-year-old 5th-year player.
Frankly, I haven't seen Lewis do that very often. Certainly no more than most players.
Quote from: MUONTOP on February 21, 2022, 01:51:25 PM
Maybe I'm old school, but I don't buy the argument "players can develop just as much overseas, on an NBA bench or in the G-league" generalization. Much of making it in professional sports is about the opportunity to shine and situational. Sure, there's some very talented players that can step into those other platforms and use them as a springboard, but for a player like Justin Lewis who has the opportunity to return and be the featured option on a potential tournament team who could potentially go for a deep run next year, I just don't see the grass being any greener with those other options.
Sure, if he's a projected first round pick or early second this year I can't blame him for making the jump, but playing time is playing time and he'll learn a hell of a lot more leading the golden eagles than he would riding the pine at the end of the bench somewhere.
Yes, you're "old school." Players can and do develop as much or more while they make money. In college, players have to go to class, go to study hall, have limits on practice time, etc.
And even if I agreed with you and others here that Lewis would be "better off" staying, what Scoopers think about this is meaningless to Justin Lewis.
Vander Blue was told repeatedly that he would be, at best, a second-round pick, and probably not even that. But he left Marquette anyway because he simply didn't want to play college ball any longer and he felt he was ready to try to find his way as a pro.
Not a single one of us here knows what Lewis thinks about the college experience, his Marquette experience, his desire to go pro, etc. We also don't know who his main influencers are, who has his ear.
Maybe he loves it so much that there's a chance he comes back. But he's also seeing mock drafts now that project him as a late-first or second-round draft pick. And maybe he's got family and friends he trusts urging him to go pro.
For the umpteenth time, this decision rarely has anything to do with an athlete being "ready" for the NBA.
Quote from: MUONTOP on February 21, 2022, 01:51:25 PM
Maybe I'm old school, but I don't buy the argument "players can develop just as much overseas, on an NBA bench or in the G-league" generalization. Much of making it in professional sports is about the opportunity to shine and situational. Sure, there's some very talented players that can step into those other platforms and use them as a springboard, but for a player like Justin Lewis who has the opportunity to return and be the featured option on a potential tournament team who could potentially go for a deep run next year, I just don't see the grass being any greener with those other options.
Sure, if he's a projected first round pick or early second this year I can't blame him for making the jump, but playing time is playing time and he'll learn a hell of a lot more leading the golden eagles than he would riding the pine at the end of the bench somewhere.
I'd accept your argument if you said - I love Justin and I love Marquette basketball so selfishly I want him to stay. But saying he'll learn more playing college basketball just isn't an accurate statement any longer. Playing/practicing against a higher level of competition makes people better.
Quote from: panda on February 21, 2022, 02:14:03 PM
I'd accept your argument if you said - I love Justin and I love Marquette basketball so selfishly I want him to stay. But saying he'll learn more playing college basketball just isn't an accurate statement any longer. Playing/practicing against a higher level of competition makes people better.
By your logic, the NBA draft should be dominated by G-League and international players, which it is not. Evidently, NBA scouts still believe college is fertile ground for talent development. Of course, that could change and perhaps we are trending that way but until that dynamic shifts, your argument that there is more talent in the G-league or overseas is simply not supported by the facts.
Quote from: MUONTOP on February 21, 2022, 02:26:13 PM
By your logic, the NBA draft should be dominated by G-League and international players, which it is not. Evidently, NBA scouts still believe college is fertile ground for talent development. Of course, that could change and perhaps we are trending that way but until that dynamic shifts, your argument that there is more talent in the G-league or overseas is simply not supported by the facts.
This is simply inaccurate. The NBA Draft has mostly college players not because of college development but because the majority of the best players grow up here and until very recently, college has been pretty much the only avenue for American players that are ineligible for the draft until the calendar year in which they turn 19, which generally is a year removed from the first year after they graduate high school.
Last year was the first year for G League Ignite players to be draft eligible and 60% (3/5) of them were drafted. Sam Vecenie's latest mock draft has 66% (4/6) of the 2022 draft eligible players being drafted, so by percentage, the G-League IS dominating.
College is a fertile ground because that's just the way it's always been done here, not because of any training superiority. And the vast majority of collegiate players drafted are underclassmen. Over the past three years, 148 college players have been drafted. 92 of them (62.2%) have been freshmen or sophomores, and only 26 completed their eligibility (17.6%). If college was such a great place to develop, why do the vast majority of players determined to be NBA worthy leave before their college training is complete?
The answer is because the best place to become a pro is in the pros. The players know it, the teams know it, and everyone here knows it.
Quote from: MUONTOP on February 21, 2022, 02:26:13 PM
By your logic, the NBA draft should be dominated by G-League and international players, which it is not. Evidently, NBA scouts still believe college is fertile ground for talent development. Of course, that could change and perhaps we are trending that way but until that dynamic shifts, your argument that there is more talent in the G-league or overseas is simply not supported by the facts.
Most G-League players are not eligible for the draft. Many have already been drafted and have been assigned to the G-League by their NBA teams. The best international players get drafted; the vast majority of American players who choose to play internationally have done so because they didn't get picked when they were eligible for the draft.
So no, the NBA draft shouldn't be dominated by G-League and international players.
You know who it's dominated by? 1-and-dones who had to play in college because the NBA and NBAPA made high-schoolers ineligible to be drafted. Most of these kids have little to no interest in school, and I don't blame them.
Quote from: MUONTOP on February 21, 2022, 02:26:13 PM
By your logic, the NBA draft should be dominated by G-League and international players, which it is not. Evidently, NBA scouts still believe college is fertile ground for talent development. Of course, that could change and perhaps we are trending that way but until that dynamic shifts, your argument that there is more talent in the G-league or overseas is simply not supported by the facts.
No need to repeat what Brew and 82 already stated. Plenty of opportunity for quality development and growth outside of the CBB.
Quote from: panda on February 21, 2022, 03:03:14 PM
No need to repeat what Brew and 82 already stated. Plenty of opportunity for quality development and growth outside of the CBB.
I'm not sure there are many college programs that "develop nba players". Either you're an NBA player or not. There may be better systems to play in but there aren't many coaches I look at and say, "that guy made player X an NBA player"
Quote from: panda on February 21, 2022, 03:03:14 PM
No need to repeat what Brew and 82 already stated. Plenty of opportunity for quality development and growth outside of the CBB.
I don't want to hijack this thread any further, it's impossible to prove out either side of the argument but citing the 11 players from G-League Ignite or 1 and dones who have already shown a certain level of talent to achieve that status proves nothing about player development. Those players are already nba level talent. I could probably cite Kentucky's or Duke's drafting record with similar stats or any other blue chip program but somehow that would "antiquated".
I don't deny there are other avenues to get to the league, but they are very limited and (to bring it back to the topic at hand) I very much doubt Justin Lewis or players like him reaching college age below the national radar would be any better off taking those routes and more likely they'd fizzle out. On the other hand, there are many examples of under the radar prospects leveraging the opportunity to shine at the NCAA Tournament into a million dollar payday. That hasn't happened yet in the other avenues you've referenced. It's just too early and unproven to generalize and declare those avenues as the better option.
MUScoop - Spring of 2006: Dominic just isn't ready. He needs to come back, develop and add to his resume. If he comes back and leads us to a tourney run he could become a lottery pick.
Worst case if James leaves after his freshman year, he is making six figures somewhere. He can always come back to MU (or some place cheaper if MU) for his degree five years down the line if he flames out.
Im a staunch proponent of leaving as soon as you can. Talent is far inferior to NBA, GLeague, Europe. You have to play school, Coaches are usually hired for ability to recruit versus coach, the style of play is different than what ultimately gets them paid, etc. It just isnt fun for college basketball fans to see a talent drain, but I bet you ask these borderline guys where they developed more I'm willing to bet they say playing professional men in the Euro league or grinding with former college all stars in the G-League.
Quote from: MUONTOP on February 21, 2022, 03:29:58 PM
On the other hand, there are many examples of under the radar prospects leveraging the opportunity to shine at the NCAA Tournament into a million dollar payday.
Justin Lewis isn't under the radar ... but I get what you're saying.
Quote from: martyconlonontherun on February 21, 2022, 03:34:41 PM
MUScoop - Spring of 2006: Dominic just isn't ready. He needs to come back, develop and add to his resume. If he comes back and leads us to a tourney run he could become a lottery pick.
Worst case if James leaves after his freshman year, he is making six figures somewhere. He can always come back to MU (or some place cheaper if MU) for his degree five years down the line if he flames out.
Im a staunch proponent of leaving as soon as you can. Talent is far inferior to NBA, GLeague, Europe. You have to play school, Coaches are usually hired for ability to recruit versus coach, the style of play is different than what ultimately gets them paid, etc. It just isnt fun for college basketball fans to see a talent drain, but I bet you ask these borderline guys where they developed more I'm willing to bet they say playing professional men in the Euro league or grinding with former college all stars in the G-League.
I'm actually a staunch proponent of the athlete following his heart and also listening to knowledgeable advisers.
If Lewis stays because Marquette is where he wants to be for another year, good on him, it was the "right" decision for him even if the unlikely happens and he ends up regressing. If Lewis leaves because he no longer wants to be at Marquette and/or because he wants to be a pro, good on him, it was the "right" decision for him even if he never plays a game in the NBA. As long as he doesn't torpedo our season as he's on his way out the door, I'll root for him forever.
I'm one who doesn't think Vander made the "wrong" decision. He didn't want to play another year of basketball at Marquette, and he wanted to try to be a pro. He wanted to roll the dice, so he rolled the dice. It hasn't worked out, but that's OK. He gave it max effort.
It's these athletes' careers, their passions, their lives ... and it cracks me up to see a bunch of anonymous non-athletes on the interwebs telling athletes what they should be thinking.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 21, 2022, 09:48:04 AM
Hit up the WAC and try to get Fardaws Aimaq to replace Kur & Teddy Allen if Justin goes pro.
I actually don't think Justin is set on staying or leaving yet to this point.
In that feature on him from last week he mentioned a few times how he wants to be remembered around here like Wade, Butler, Matthews, etc.
And in his own words he said "I have a lot yet to do here."
It'll be an interesting few months. Here's to hoping he carries MU to the Final Four and makes a lot of money because of it! 😅
I found a stat a couple of years ago that half of NBA players had spent time in the G league.
Quote from: GoldenEagles03 on February 21, 2022, 04:00:14 PM
I actually don't think Justin is set on staying or leaving yet to this point.
In that feature on him from last week he mentioned a few times how he wants to be remembered around here like Wade, Butler, Matthews, etc.
And in his own words he said "I have a lot yet to do here."
It'll be an interesting few months. Here's to hoping he carries MU to the Final Four and makes a lot of money because of it! 😅
I missed that feature. That's good to hear. Selfishly, I'd love to see Justin stick around for another year.
If he hears through the grapevine that an NBA GM or 3 like him in the first round (or even the second), staying would be a difficult decision.
Quote from: MUONTOP on February 21, 2022, 03:29:58 PM
I don't want to hijack this thread any further, it's impossible to prove out either side of the argument but citing the 11 players from G-League Ignite or 1 and dones who have already shown a certain level of talent to achieve that status proves nothing about player development. Those players are already nba level talent. I could probably cite Kentucky's or Duke's drafting record with similar stats or any other blue chip program but somehow that would "antiquated".
I don't deny there are other avenues to get to the league, but they are very limited and (to bring it back to the topic at hand) I very much doubt Justin Lewis or players like him reaching college age below the national radar would be any better off taking those routes and more likely they'd fizzle out. On the other hand, there are many examples of under the radar prospects leveraging the opportunity to shine at the NCAA Tournament into a million dollar payday. That hasn't happened yet in the other avenues you've referenced. It's just too early and unproven to generalize and declare those avenues as the better option.
The g league has become a legitimate outlet for burgeoning nba talent. Players don't need to stay in college to improve any longer and may be disincentivized to do so. That wasn't true 10 years ago.
I'll put a PG on my wish list.
I believe some players get extra help and development in college because coaches are working and teaching. It seems in pros, they are worried about winning and don't seem to get that one on one help.
I think in college the coaches try to coach everyone on the team as much as they can. Beyond college, it's more on the player to seek out the help they feel they need and put in the work to improve. But the resources are unlimited, and the time available to work on basketball is unlimited.
Quote from: MUONTOP on February 21, 2022, 02:26:13 PM
By your logic, the NBA draft should be dominated by G-League and international players, which it is not. Evidently, NBA scouts still believe college is fertile ground for talent development. Of course, that could change and perhaps we are trending that way but until that dynamic shifts, your argument that there is more talent in the G-league or overseas is simply not supported by the facts.
Your post is simply wrong.
To start the 2020-21 season,
45% of players on opening-night NBA rosters had NBA G League experience. 21.8% of NBA players were classed as international players.
While there were a few overlaps, about 65% of players were from the G League or overseas, including several all-stars and the League's last 3 Year's MVPs.
Of course Brew is the guy that beat me to this. :) I need to read all of the subsequent posts before I respond.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 21, 2022, 01:37:50 PM
Why can't he mature on and off the course in the G-League or an NBA bench?
By mature you mean improving his basketball skills I would agree. If he is sitting on an NBA bench earning big bucks why stay in college; but the G-League, I'm not so sure. The minimum salary is about 35k in the G-League and sure all your time is devoted to improving your game. However if you remain in school and your team is in the Big Dance you have an opportunity to shine and have name recognition on the National stage which I don't think the G-League would provide.
Also, it may be possible for some player NILs to earn more than the G-League.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on February 22, 2022, 11:50:18 AM
By mature you mean improving his basketball skills I would agree. If he is sitting on an NBA bench earning big bucks why stay in college; but the G-League, I'm not so sure. The minimum salary is about 35k in the G-League and sure all your time is devoted to improving your game. However if you remain in school and your team is in the Big Dance you have an opportunity to shine and have name recognition on the National stage which I don't think the G-League would provide.
Also, it may be possible for some player NILs to earn more than the G-League.
At this stage of an athlete's journey, it's mostly about opportunity, not money.
If an NBA team has a run of injuries or makes trades or has Covid issues or whatever, it reaches into the G League and immediately brings up a player. It's how Markus got his look, how Sam got his look, how Jamil got his look. Even Vander's cup of coffee came about because he was ready to go in the G League.
If it's Feb. 8 and you're in college, you ain't getting called up to the NBA.
There are pluses and minuses for the G League and for college hoops. You keep making arguments that you think supports your case, but you never acknowledge that maybe the athlete simply no longer wants to be in college for a variety of reasons. If he doesn't, then it's "better" that he's playing somewhere else. Not sure why that's such a difficult concept for some.
For decades, the College Sports Industrial Complex overwhelmingly benefited coaches, athletic departments and universities -- and it still does.
Glad to see the athletes finally getting a few more legitimate choices, including the right to transfer without having to sit out an entire season, and the right to pursue professional opportunities through an outlet like the G League.
Quote from: MU82 on February 22, 2022, 01:05:01 PM
For decades, the College Sports Industrial Complex overwhelmingly benefited coaches, athletic departments and universities -- and it still does.
An by 'College Sports Industrial Complex' you mean the 10% of schools that are high major programs and the 5% of all college athletes, that play football and men's basketball?
Quote from: BLM on February 22, 2022, 01:48:31 PM
Sean Jones says hello.
I hope he's the answer. I like Kolek but he's struggling lately. He's not creating like he was earlier this season. He's looking like a strong backup in the Big East.
It appears like Shaka feels the same so kudos to him for seeing a need and filling it. Shaka is doing a grade A job.
The outstanding high school coach I worked for puts an emphasis on identifying and developing PGs. One of his sayings: "The most important position is point guard, and the second most important position is another point guard."
Marquette needs upgrades and/or depth at every position, including PG.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on February 22, 2022, 02:17:59 PM
I hope he's the answer. I like Kolek but he's struggling lately. He's not creating like he was earlier this season. He's looking like a strong backup in the Big East.
He had 11 assists in a game that took place less than a week ago.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on February 22, 2022, 11:50:18 AM
By mature you mean improving his basketball skills I would agree. If he is sitting on an NBA bench earning big bucks why stay in college; but the G-League, I'm not so sure. The minimum salary is about 35k in the G-League and sure all your time is devoted to improving your game. However if you remain in school and your team is in the Big Dance you have an opportunity to shine and have name recognition on the National stage which I don't think the G-League would provide.
Also, it may be possible for some player NILs to earn more than the G-League.
This is basically where I'm at too. Does anyone really believe that Justin stunted his NBA potential (both playing and earning) by returning to Marquette this year instead of going the G League route?
If you're a first round lock you go and take the guaranteed money.
If you're coming out of high school and invited to be on the G League Elite, you go and chances are high that you're a first rounder the next year.
Beyond that you're really rolling the dice on yourself and eliminating some paths to guaranteed money.
I get the angle if you don't want to be in school, don't stay in school.
I get the risk of injury angle too, but you could get injured in the Gleague as well and you still wouldn't have any guaranteed money.
I think NIL has started to even the playing field between college and Gleague/Europe. Plenty of Kids in college are earning more than the Gleague minimum.
Justin was able to improve his game this year and showcase those improvements. His draft stock has risen as a result.
Doesn't mean it will be the same for the next player. There are many different paths.
Quote from: Freeway on February 22, 2022, 04:16:39 PM
This is basically where I'm at too. Does anyone really believe that Justin stunted his NBA potential (both playing and earning) by returning to Marquette this year instead of going the G League route?
If you're a first round lock you go and take the guaranteed money.
If you're coming out of high school and invited to be on the G League Elite, you go and chances are high that you're a first rounder the next year.
Beyond that you're really rolling the dice on yourself and eliminating some paths to guaranteed money.
I get the angle if you don't want to be in school, don't stay in school.
I get the risk of injury angle too, but you could get injured in the Gleague as well and you still wouldn't have any guaranteed money.
I think NIL has started to even the playing field between college and Gleague/Europe. Plenty of Kids in college are earning more than the Gleague minimum.
Justin was able to improve his game this year and showcase those improvements. His draft stock has risen as a result.
Doesn't mean it will be the same for the next player. There are many different paths.
Some posters are arguing the opposite that Justin would be doing himself a disservice going pro while not being drafted in the first round. Players growth isn't stunted by going to the G League.
Quote from: Golden Avalanche on February 22, 2022, 03:06:03 PM
He had 11 assists in a game that took place less than a week ago.
I think you meant to write "He had 11 assists in a game
Against Georgetown that took place less than a week ago."
No need to thank me, I got your back on this one.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on February 22, 2022, 01:36:44 PM
An by 'College Sports Industrial Complex' you mean the 10% of schools that are high major programs and the 5% of all college athletes, that play football and men's basketball?
Well, even football and basketball coaches at places like Northern Illinois and Western Carolina have all the power and money in their neck of the woods, and their athletes get even fewer scraps. At least now those athletes can transfer without facing unfair consequences.
Yes, primarily football and men's basketball ... but depending on the school and part of the country, also baseball, hockey, women's basketball, lacrosse, volleyball, wrestling, etc.
I mean, the hockey coach at St. Cloud State makes $225K base and gets much more than that in perks. But until a year ago, St. Cloud State players weren't much more than indentured servants whose freedom of movement was limited by idiotic transfer rules that benefited power brokers, not athletes.
The Mississippi State baseball coach makes $1.25M. The Iowa wrestling coach has a $375K base salary. We could go on all day.
The College Sports Industrial Complex takes care of the overlords.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on February 22, 2022, 08:01:07 PM
I think you meant to write "He had 11 assists in a game Against Georgetown that took place less than a week ago."
No need to thank me, I got your back on this one.
Ok. Sure.
As an aside, can you please list the Big East guards who have had double digit assists in a conference game this season?
Quote from: Freeway on February 22, 2022, 04:16:39 PM
This is basically where I'm at too. Does anyone really believe that Justin stunted his NBA potential (both playing and earning) by returning to Marquette this year instead of going the G League route?
If you're a first round lock you go and take the guaranteed money.
If you're coming out of high school and invited to be on the G League Elite, you go and chances are high that you're a first rounder the next year.
Beyond that you're really rolling the dice on yourself and eliminating some paths to guaranteed money.
I get the angle if you don't want to be in school, don't stay in school.
I get the risk of injury angle too, but you could get injured in the Gleague as well and you still wouldn't have any guaranteed money.
I think NIL has started to even the playing field between college and Gleague/Europe. Plenty of Kids in college are earning more than the Gleague minimum.
Justin was able to improve his game this year and showcase those improvements. His draft stock has risen as a result.
Doesn't mean it will be the same for the next player. There are many different paths.
Thank you and well stated, each player needs to make the best decision for themselves. The G-league and going overseas may be a good option for some but I don't believe there are many players who would shine brighter in the G-league rather than in a situation where they are the #1 option on an NCAA tournament team given the exposure that goes with it. That would require a very unique opportunity, skillset and player along with a series of events that provides playing time and opportunity.
Quote from: MUONTOP on February 23, 2022, 05:02:39 PM
Thank you and well stated, each player needs to make the best decision for themselves. The G-league and going overseas may be a good option for some but I don't believe there are many players who would shine brighter in the G-league rather than in a situation where they are the #1 option on an NCAA tournament team given the exposure that goes with it. That would require a very unique opportunity, skillset and player along with a series of events that provides playing time and opportunity.
Your point is well taken, but it is not about shining brightly. The G League has several advantages for a player.
Better coaching. More games and practices. Facing better defenses. Playing in a pro style offense.
Most importantly, the associated NBA team will get reports on him almost daily which is why almost half of players in the NBA played in the G League.
Might as well just have all the kids go to the G league, college hoops will be secondary!
Quote from: Golden Avalanche on February 23, 2022, 10:20:14 AM
Ok. Sure.
As an aside, can you please list the Big East guards who have had double digit assists in a conference game this season?
I can not list them.
I like TK and don't want to bash him. I think he is a fine major college PG but I feel like he has dropped off as an effective play maker lately compared to Nov-Jan. Maybe the BE has done a better job game planning for him and he can't adjust. It is only my opinion but his playing time on Sunday make me believe Shaka is feeling the same way.
I'd love to proven wrong the rest of the season and eat my words.
Quote from: BCHoopster on February 23, 2022, 05:18:55 PM
Might as well just have all the kids go to the G league, college hoops will be secondary!
Spot on. Lets focus on volleyball instead.
Why do some people get so prickly about players going to the g league instead of college? There's a limited number of games league roster spots, college hoops is going nowhere
Quote from: WhiteTrash on February 23, 2022, 05:49:29 PM
I can not list them.
I like TK and don't want to bash him. I think he is a fine major college PG but I feel like he has dropped off as an effective play maker lately compared to Nov-Jan. Maybe the BE has done a better job game planning for him and he can't adjust. It is only my opinion but his playing time on Sunday make me believe Shaka is feeling the same way.
I'd love to proven wrong the rest of the season and eat my words.
Seems to me teams figured out how to defend the pick and roll, which is what we were dominating with during the winning streak, largely due to TK's ability to read and react to the D. TK's production, our assists and our offensive efficiency generally seem to have gone down since then. We have still found ways to score, but it hasn't been the clinic it was during that great stretch. That is the beauty and curse of a conference slate where teams all play each other twice. It forces teams and players to evolve. I think we are already seeing that with Tyler knocking down more 3s and attempting to finish at the rim more rather than kick it out since teams aren't leaving shooters.
Quote from: StillWarriors on February 24, 2022, 01:19:11 PM
Seems to me teams figured out how to defend the pick and roll, which is what we were dominating with during the winning streak, largely due to TK's ability to read and react to the D. TK's production, our assists and our offensive efficiency generally seem to have gone down since then. We have still found ways to score, but it hasn't been the clinic it was during that great stretch. That is the beauty and curse of a conference slate where teams all play each other twice. It forces teams and players to evolve. I think we are already seeing that with Tyler knocking down more 3s and attempting to finish at the rim more rather than kick it out since teams aren't leaving shooters.
No argument that other coaches have learned how to handle Marquette. The narrative on scoop seems to be that this is strictly a one- way street. That's the part that does not make any sense to me.
I keep seeing complaints about the offense. The offense has been good during this rough patch. The defense is what is struggling
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 24, 2022, 01:47:19 PM
I keep seeing complaints about the offense. The offense has been good during this rough patch. The defense is what is struggling
Good point. I think Shaka can fix it.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 24, 2022, 01:47:19 PM
I keep seeing complaints about the offense. The offense has been good during this rough patch. The defense is what is struggling
I agree that the offense has still found a way to put up points, and that the biggest issues have been on the defensive end. We have had to find different ways to score that involve more individual effort from various guys, less TK initiated scoring and fewer dunks. It is a credit to the coaches and team that we still score enough points to win. I still think TK has a valuable role on this team, that he will be a key player for our success down the stretch and in the future. His role has just evolved with the defensive changes we have been faced with, in large part due to his incredible ability in running the pick and roll offense. The analytics for him during that stretch were outrageous.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on February 23, 2022, 05:49:29 PM
I can not list them.
I like TK and don't want to bash him. I think he is a fine major college PG but I feel like he has dropped off as an effective play maker lately compared to Nov-Jan. Maybe the BE has done a better job game planning for him and he can't adjust. It is only my opinion but his playing time on Sunday make me believe Shaka is feeling the same way.
I'd love to proven wrong the rest of the season and eat my words.
You will be proven wrong, unless Shaka doubles down on reducing his playing time. Then we will be in a world of hurt.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 24, 2022, 01:47:19 PM
I keep seeing complaints about the offense. The offense has been good during this rough patch. The defense is what is struggling
Which is something that few if any of us saw coming.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 24, 2022, 12:45:45 PM
Why do some people get so prickly about players going to the g league instead of college? There's a limited number of games league roster spots, college hoops is going nowhere
Why are you against college basketball? Please leave.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on February 24, 2022, 10:10:39 PM
Why are you against college basketball? Please leave.
How is me saying that college hoops is strong and won't be meaningfully impacted by players going to the G League "against college basketball"?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 24, 2022, 10:59:20 PM
How is me saying that college hoops is strong and won't be meaningfully impacted by players going to the G League "against college basketball"?
If thinking (hoping) that was teal-less teal.
Quote from: MU82 on February 24, 2022, 11:01:30 PM
If thinking (hoping) that was teal-less teal.
Considering Stretch's well documented disdain for players who leave for the pros before the senior year, I don't think that's the case
Hey. I love Marquette basketball and want them to always play hard to win. If any scoopers are traveling to New Orleans on National Marquette Day please stop in at Buffa's Bar and Restaurant Bach Room to join fellow Alums and families to watch the Butler vs. Marquette game on a huge screen TV. Ring out Ahoya!
Quote from: Jockey on February 23, 2022, 05:11:01 PM
Your point is well taken, but it is not about shining brightly. The G League has several advantages for a player.
Better coaching. More games and practices. Facing better defenses. Playing in a pro style offense.
Most importantly, the associated NBA team will get reports on him almost daily which is why almost half of players in the NBA played in the G League.
...and how is this good for Marquette?
If a recruits sole goal is to try to get to the NBA, unless they are a sure one and done, then Marquette may not be the best fit for that type of recruit. If the values of a player centers primarily on growth as a basketball player, and not other concerns, Marquette may not be best for them if they are not clearly a one and done type.
If they value personal growth, education and other concerns in addition to basketball, then Marquette may be a better fit. So it is better if the former types of players go to the G league or overseas rather than another college. I doubt they end up at Marquette anyway.