Billy Hoyle said:
"Participation in youth sports is where I draw the line. I listen to science (biology and physiology) https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2020/11/06/bjsports-2020-102329
Summary The 15–31% athletic advantage that transwomen displayed over their female counterparts prior to starting gender affirming hormones declined with feminising therapy. However, transwomen still had a 9% faster mean run speed after the 1 year period of testosterone suppression that is recommended by World Athletics for inclusion in women's events."
But what is sports about really? It's about being part of a team. Being accepted. I doubt many (if any) transwomen identify this way for the sake of competing in sports. As naginF says "they are probably the most marginalized sub segment of our society."
If including them in sports helps them be less marginalized and more included, then not only should we allow it, we should applaud it.
My question when these discussions pop up are what about the people who are:
XXY
XX-male
XY-female
true hermaphrodites.
What division do they compete in? The general idea, is that our idea of male vs. female divisions is not so cut and dry.
https://youtu.be/URz-RYEOaig
So my main issue with this discussion is there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in nuance, from either side really. Both sides are emotional. One is from the position of "don't discriminate against poor children" and the other (bigoted views withheld) is concerned about the very real biological differences between those born men and women. I'm very much of the belief that you can be fully supportive of trans people and trans rights and still have hesitation about no holds barred participation in sports.
I think productive discussion about hormones and t-levels and length of transitioning period, or however you'd like to phrase it, is completely fair and reasonable but will likely be shouted down as discriminatory.
I also think the discussion is very different in individual events like track and field, swimming, weightlifting, etc. vs team sports. Though, I will pose the follow real life story.
I went to college with a now trans woman who transitioned in her mid 20s. One of my friends is much closer with her and says in conversations she shared with him that she'd felt this way confidently since she was 14/15 and would have transitioned much earlier given different support and less stigmas, which is sad and I totally sympathize with. However, she is about 6'2, was an all state soccer player who turned down multiple offers cause our Alma mater was her dream school and we didn't have a soccer team, as well as a tremendous basketball player who could dunk with ease and had D3 offers in that sport. If she had competed with females during the time she would have foreseeably transitioned, post puberty, she would have been unstoppable at that level.
Now that's purely anecdotal and I don't have some great concern about waves of men transitioning in their teens to dominate women's sports and stealing scholarships, but it does highlight to me the complexity of it all and that anything other than full throated support of trans cross sport participation doesn't make you a bigot or an enemy of trans people, regardless of true bigots hiding behind certain reasons
According to the latest statistics gender dysphoria in males occurs in 1 in 30000 births. According to the latest census there are approximately 22 million boys/men in the 14 - 24 age group; which if my math is correct about 550 transgendered males in the country. I don't think they are going to ruin/blowup women's sports. What happened in Connecticut is an aberration.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on April 30, 2021, 10:26:25 AM
According to the latest statistics gender dysphoria in males occurs in 1 in 30000 births. According to the latest census there are approximately 22 million boys/men in the 14 - 24 age group; which if my math is correct about 550 transgendered males in the country. I don't think they are going to ruin/blowup women's sports. What happened in Connecticut is an aberration.
550 is way low.
I am going to side with the marginalized group getting a chance to participate here, even with the knowledge that it might give an extremely small percentage of athletes a competitive edge.
There are those who do or say things out of cruelty or spite or prejudice, but I do know there are many who are just trying to make things "fair" in their minds. I like to think that most of us here want what's fair and good; obviously, those concepts can be in the eye of the beholder.
So yes, as is the case with just about every controversial topic, there certainly is nuance on this issue.
For example, Brittney Griner is definitely a female, but she has the male Y chromosome. South African runner Caster Semenya is definitely a female, but she has unusually high testosterone levels -- and international governing bodies tried to ban her. That kind of stuff. Folks have talked about "where do we draw the line," and I say, yes indeed, where?
There are so many questions, not enough answers, and for me, I hate telling kids they can't participate because of who they are.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on April 30, 2021, 10:26:25 AM
According to the latest statistics gender dysphoria in males occurs in 1 in 30000 births. According to the latest census there are approximately 22 million boys/men in the 14 - 24 age group; which if my math is correct about 550 transgendered males in the country. I don't think they are going to ruin/blowup women's sports. What happened in Connecticut is an aberration.
XXY (Klinefelter syndrome) occurs in between 1:1000 to 1:500 births.
XY-females occur in about 1:100,000 births
XX-males occur in about 1:20,000 births
And those are just some of the genetic considerations.
I find transgender athletes in sports a fascinating ethical question. Unfortunately, too often the discussion diverges into politics and religion, instead of the science and ethics.
Quote from: #UnleashRowsey on April 30, 2021, 10:56:20 AM
550 is way low.
1/30000= 0.000034
22000000 x 0.000034 =734
So just a little low in the 14-24 age group.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on April 30, 2021, 10:26:25 AM
According to the latest statistics gender dysphoria in males occurs in 1 in 30000 births. According to the latest census there are approximately 22 million boys/men in the 14 - 24 age group; which if my math is correct about 550 transgendered males in the country. I don't think they are going to ruin/blowup women's sports. What happened in Connecticut is an aberration.
Trouble with this statistic is that people have to self report gender dysphoria. And as you can imagine, there is a pretty big social stigma in doing so.
The actual number is
probably far higher.
I'll never understand how this is political.
Imagine the uncertainty and self doubt one has to have going through this. To this notion that a "boy" would choose play as a "girl" just to achieve athletic fame and reward is mind boggling.
And I say that as a Dad of a 5th grade daughter who is very competitive / accomplished for her age group in softball / basketball / gymnastics. If she missed the podium because of a transgender kid...that's the least of my problems compared to what that child has to go through on a day to day basis.
Quote from: JWags85 on April 30, 2021, 10:02:53 AM
So my main issue with this discussion is there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in nuance, from either side really. Both sides are emotional. One is from the position of "don't discriminate against poor children" and the other (bigoted views withheld) is concerned about the very real biological differences between those born men and women. I'm very much of the belief that you can be fully supportive of trans people and trans rights and still have hesitation about no holds barred participation in sports.
I think productive discussion about hormones and t-levels and length of transitioning period, or however you'd like to phrase it, is completely fair and reasonable but will likely be shouted down as discriminatory.
IMO it depends on the age of the individuals and how close to 'professional' the sport is:
Youth athletics - shouldn't even be a discussion. As FBM said, the experience is about being part of a team and/or being accepted
High school - they're still minors, there are very few instances where a specific W or L is actually meaningful (i.e. colleges don't recruit teams they recruit individuals, the person in the lane next to you doesn't impact your performance, etc.), and the main purpose of HS sports is inclusion and life lessons.
College - this is the gray area. Some (not all, as most go pro in something other than sports) of the W's and L's actually have meaning and NIL will only add to that.
Pro/olympic - the league can decide on their own, and I'm sure there will be a case that gets a group all up in arms, but IMO there is much less gray area here.
I'm not knowledgable enough on the specific hormonal/transition period/physiological/etc aspects to speak on it but I'm sure those aspects would help clearing up the gray.
I am firmly in the camp of let the transgender female athlete compete in female sports. I use female for male and female.
What is the actual harm in transgender females playing female sports?
Transgender females do not choose to be transgender in order to compete and find success in female sports. Transgender females are females. We don't make a stink over a muscular woman running female track events. Actually, transgender females aren't automatically muscular or more athletic. They are likely more comfortable in their own skin. That's a win.
I have been told that transgender females will take over female sports, and they will take away scholarships, earning potential, etc., from females born females. I never understood those arguments. First, men aren't going to wake up in droves and decide they want to be transgender females so they can compete against women. News flash, just because someone is a woman doesn't mean they are not as athletic as a man.
If an athlete is good enough to get scholarships, money, etc., playing sports, that won't change because of a transgender female. No, if a transgender female becomes the star, they won't take away a spot from the second best. Maybe the 15th best, but I would say, work harder.
To me it's an empathy thing, a be better to your fellow human thing, a be more accepting thing, a be more selfless thing. All wins.
National Geographic - January 2017 - dedicated a whole issue to scientifically explain.
GENDER REVOLUTION
Read the historic January 2017 Special Issue of National Geographic magazine on the shifting landscape of gender and download our discussion guide for teachers and parents.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/issue/january-2017
As a father whose athletic daughter progressed to the D3 level, and as a person who has spent the last decade coaching middle school and high school girls basketball, I agree with the outstanding posts by 21Jump, nagini and Lens.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 30, 2021, 11:56:18 AM
Trouble with this statistic is that people have to self report gender dysphoria. And as you can imagine, there is a pretty big social stigma in doing so.
The actual number is probably far higher.
Even so it is still rare to have an impact on girls sports. Many don't even transition as they identify as gay men later in life. In fact the number of trans women who have self-identified to compete in college sports is very rare. In the future there may be greater acceptance and participation but not enough to impact girls/women sports in my estimation.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/soccer/in-the-discussion-of-transgender-athletes-facts-matter/ar-BB1dhP9b
Quote from: muwarrior69 on April 30, 2021, 01:26:30 PM
Even so it is still rare to have an impact on girls sports. Many don't even transition as they identify as gay men later in life. In fact the number of trans women who have self-identified to compete in college sports is very rare. In the future there may be greater acceptance and participation but not enough to impact girls/women sports in my estimation.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/soccer/in-the-discussion-of-transgender-athletes-facts-matter/ar-BB1dhP9b
Absolutely agree.
Quote from: naginiF on April 30, 2021, 12:11:05 PM
IMO it depends on the age of the individuals and how close to 'professional' the sport is:
Youth athletics - shouldn't even be a discussion. As FBM said, the experience is about being part of a team and/or being accepted
High school - they're still minors, there are very few instances where a specific W or L is actually meaningful (i.e. colleges don't recruit teams they recruit individuals, the person in the lane next to you doesn't impact your performance, etc.), and the main purpose of HS sports is inclusion and life lessons.
College - this is the gray area. Some (not all, as most go pro in something other than sports) of the W's and L's actually have meaning and NIL will only add to that.
Pro/olympic - the league can decide on their own, and I'm sure there will be a case that gets a group all up in arms, but IMO there is much less gray area here.
I'm not knowledgable enough on the specific hormonal/transition period/physiological/etc aspects to speak on it but I'm sure those aspects would help clearing up the gray.
We're pretty in line here. I think the question is more if acceptance and such made transitioning more prevalent at an earlier (read pre-adult/college) age, how would potentially impact things.
I'm very much with forgetful on it being a question of science and ethics. It's just an interesting and curious discussion for me. I see people quickly leaping to the "droves of men" and "taking over women's sports" and honestly, that's disingenuous to honest/realistic/factual discussion as opposed to exaggerated grenades thrown in response to fear tactics by true bigots or discriminatory arguments.
And while I'm entirely sympathetic to the plight and struggles, I don't think "they've had it hard" is a fair argument (obviously above a children's sports level). Let's say I lost my arm in a terrible accident or was born without. Technology developed an excellent prosthesis that allowed me to gain some semblance of the use of a normal arm. However, by some design quirk, it allowed me to throw a baseball with an absurd and different form of spin that produced a basically unhittable pitch. The vast majority of people wouldn't be rushing to chop off their arms for baseball ability and I certainly had been through a lot and much of my life was more difficult, but that wouldn't mean my case couldn't be examined uniquely. It's hyperbolic but it's sort of in the spirit of the true, non bigoted argument.
Good discussion, folks.
👏🏻
It's hard to ignore the generational differences in how people think about all this. Setting aside value judgments, for boomers it seems trans/gender fluidity tends to merit discomfort. But for Gen Z, trans and gender fluidity is just a normal part of the landscape. So I suspect regardless of how this is litigated now, it will be a regular part of life and the culture for just about everyone 15 years from now.
Quote from: Babybluejeans on April 30, 2021, 05:20:58 PM
It's hard to ignore the generational differences in how people think about all this. Setting aside value judgments, for boomers it seems trans/gender fluidity tends to merit discomfort. But for Gen Z, trans and gender fluidity is just a normal part of the landscape. So I suspect regardless of how this is litigated now, it will be a regular part of life and the culture for just about everyone 15 years from now.
I see boomers, X'ers, Millenials, and Zoomers (I think I can identify one) all in this thread generally agreeing. It's actually quite refreshing.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 30, 2021, 05:32:54 PM
I see boomers, X'ers, Millenials, and Zoomers (I think I can identify one) all in this thread generally agreeing. It's actually quite refreshing.
True, and it is!
My concern would be for contact sports. If a Trans man wanted to try say boxing, they can feel like they're a guy all they want but it doesn't mean that their bones will gain density or muscles will build to a level of a guys without hormone therapy and that could be a real danger for them, same with a few other contact sports.
For the most part though I'm fine with Trans people trying to compete with their identities.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on April 30, 2021, 05:43:43 PM
My concern would be for contact sports. If a Trans man wanted to try say boxing, they can feel like they're a guy all they want but it doesn't mean that their bones will gain density or muscles will build to a level of a guys without hormone therapy and that could be a real danger for them, same with a few other contact sports.
For the most part though I'm fine with Trans people trying to compete with their identities.
I'd say that decision is best left up to the transgender man.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 30, 2021, 05:32:54 PM
I see boomers, X'ers, Millenials, and Zoomers (I think I can identify one) all in this thread generally agreeing. It's actually quite refreshing.
Gen Xer here. I found it incredibly refreshing when I spoke with my then ten year old son about his transgender classmate back when people were uneasy with the whole bathroom nonsense. I asked him how he felt about her using whichever bathroom she felt comfortable using. His response, "Whichever one she wants. She is not hurting anyone."
Thank goodness the world is a changin'.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on April 30, 2021, 07:27:03 PM
Gen Xer here. I found it incredibly refreshing when I spoke with my then ten year old son about his transgender classmate back when people were uneasy with the whole bathroom nonsense. I asked him how he felt about her using whichever bathroom she felt comfortable using. His response, "Whichever one she wants. She is not hurting anyone."
Thank goodness the world is a changin'.
Added a "not" for you.
And this boomer agrees with your son.
Quote from: MU82 on April 30, 2021, 07:53:07 PM
Added a "not" for you.
And this boomer agrees with your son.
Hah, thanks, kinda makes the whole point. Edited.
~50 years ago, my dad's favorite line, oft-repeated, was "life isn't fair."
Segments of society have been doing their best to chip away at that for decades, and politicians have found a way to weaponize that struggle to our detriment.
Y'all cats iz crazay
I'm a Boomer who thinks it is hard enough getting through life without worrying someone else. I wish everybody the best. But what i see here are guys saying they have no problem with someone else losing a race,a title or a scholarship to a person who has a large physical advantage. I would imagine few of theses transgender competitors strength and athleticism would be diminished by hormone therapy given their age.
I would like to hear from Women who would actually have to compete with these individuals.
I hope this is resolved and ends up best for all concerned
FWIW both my daughters , who turned down D1 offers to be students, feel it would be unfair to compete with males who identify as females.
I shouldn't presume to speak for my wife and my daughter, each of whom was a high school athlete. When our daughter visits us later this month, I'm sure this issue will be a topic of conversation.
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on May 02, 2021, 02:16:50 PM
I'm a Boomer who thinks it is hard enough getting through life without worrying someone else. I wish everybody the best. But what i see here are guys saying they have no problem with someone else losing a race,a title or a scholarship to a person who has a large physical advantage. I would imagine few of theses transgender competitors strength and athleticism would be diminished by hormone therapy given their age.
I would like to hear from Women who would actually have to compete with these individuals.
I hope this is resolved and ends up best for all concerned
FWIW both my daughters , who turned down D1 offers to be students, feel it would be unfair to compete with males who identify as females.
I bet if they met the trans women they'd have no worries about losing to them in sports.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 02, 2021, 05:14:47 PM
I bet if they met the trans women they'd have no worries about losing to them in sports.
Based on? Not outright shading your argument, just curious.
I share that sentiment where it pertains to people who have fear/apprehension/etc about LGBT people, who likely have never met or directly interacted with them and thus have never humanized them, but this is a bit beyond that. Again back to being able to fully support them, their choice, and their life but still not be totally cool having them compete.
I simply don't feel there is going to be such a major wave of super-athletic trans girls saying, "Hey, now it's time for me to dominate interscholastic sports!" that it's necessary to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
Quote from: MU82 on May 02, 2021, 05:43:09 PM
I simply don't feel there is going to be such a major wave of super-athletic trans girls saying, "Hey, now it's time for me to dominate interscholastic sports!" that it's necessary to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
I don't totally disagree, but at the same time, there are plenty of less controversial eligibility rules that came out of unique situations.
If the consensus is 99% of school districts/competitions and athletes will not be affected by this, so going through the rigor of making rules based on T levels, age, etc... is not worth it. Fair enough. But not making rules, for fairly uncommon situations, due to not wanting to harm the minors at stake or similar emotional grounds kind of ignores the fact that plenty of kids have been screwed by eligibility situations through no fault of their own. It just is what it is.
FWIW, I'm pretty ambivalent about it all as it pertains to team sports, the individual competitions are where I think it's a legit discussion.
Quote from: MU82 on May 02, 2021, 05:43:09 PM
I simply don't feel there is going to be such a major wave of super-athletic trans girls saying, "Hey, now it's time for me to dominate interscholastic sports!" that it's necessary to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
Well, what if there were 4 or 5 a year that were sinister and wanted to dominate women's tennis, women's golf, track events, or the WNBA? Or 4 or 5 parents who wanted their kid to get a full ride in a particular sport? Are you saying this is inconceivable? Suppose a top male college tennis player identified himself as a female when he was 20 and went on to win every women's tennis tournament and 40 grand slams? Would you be fine with this?
Now, I am one of the rare people that think all animals should be allowed to compete in the Olympics so I'm not totally against this scenario. Can you imagine how cool that would be? Sarah the Cheetah from the Cincy Zoo for example ran a 4.9 100 m I believe. And remember MU82 Cheetah's times at zoos are slower, much slower, than those in the wild. Let's open it up? Sailfish vs Olympic swimmers? Rhinos on the Offensive Line? Spider Monkeys vs Gymnasts? Walruses in a clam eating contest? I'm for all of it. Let's do this. Ponder for a moment what a Rhino would do to an NFL Defensive Lineman? :)
Quote from: MuggsyB on May 02, 2021, 07:03:15 PM
Well, what if there ...... Lineman? :)
comparing trans people to animals.....that's dehumanizing and you should take this post down immediately.
*edited to remove OP
Quote from: naginiF on May 02, 2021, 07:09:50 PM
comparing trans people to animals.....that's dehumanizing and you should take this post down immediately.
It wasn't a comparison.
Quote from: MuggsyB on May 02, 2021, 07:16:53 PM
It wasn't a comparison.
Thread title: Transgender kids competing in sports
Your post: here are a bunch of animals I'd like to see compete in sports.
Comparison: a consideration or estimate of the similarities or dissimilarities between two things or people
Take it down.
Quote from: MuggsyB on May 02, 2021, 07:03:15 PM
Well, what if there were 4 or 5 a year that were sinister and wanted to dominate women's tennis, women's golf, track events, or the WNBA? Or 4 or 5 parents who wanted their kid to get a full ride in a particular sport? Are you saying this is inconceivable? Suppose a top male college tennis player identified himself as a female when he was 20 and went on to win every women's tennis tournament and 40 grand slams? Would you be fine with this?
Now, I am one of the rare people that think all animals should be allowed to compete in the Olympics so I'm not totally against this scenario. Can you imagine how cool that would be? Sarah the Cheetah from the Cincy Zoo for example ran a 4.9 100 m I believe. And remember MU82 Cheetah's times at zoos are slower, much slower, than those in the wild. Let's open it up? Sailfish vs Olympic swimmers? Rhinos on the Offensive Line? Spider Monkeys vs Gymnasts? Walruses in a clam eating contest? I'm for all of it. Let's do this. Ponder for a moment what a Rhino would do to an NFL Defensive Lineman? :)
This post is beneath you, Muggs. I'm not going to grace it with any other response.
This is why we can't have nice things.
There's really no point here anyhow. Almost no one is ever going to move off their position. It's just another topic to divide the nation.