If the NCAA graduation rates for football and basketball players weren't embarrassing enough already then just wait to see them plunge even further with the instant transfer rule.
Anytime you transfer you lose some credits as universities have different criteria for what is a sufficient amount of eligible credits to earn a degree. This is true even if you stay at the same university and decide to change majors as the business school and engineering school have very different course requirements. The sit-out year used to help the athlete catch up on some credits he might have lost while transferring schools and still be on path to graduate in 4 to 5 years.
With this new wild wild west / transfer at will rule let's just stop calling them "student-athletes" and just call them what they are which is "guns for hire".
Lose all the academic support tutors at the Al and switch them out with a new staff that just focuses on keeping the players and their families/handlers happy. We can't have productive players threaten to transfer when season ticket sales depend on the outlook of next year's team.
Let transparency reign at this point as even getting a college degree only ensures that most the graduates will end up working in some kind of commission based job or working at Starbucks where health insurance can be obtained. Most the athletes will end up in these same jobs once their eligibility runs out too minus the $100,000 in student loan debt.
Let's rid ourselves of all the phoniness and hypocrisy and just call it what is already.
Otherwise we can keep listening to Todd Smith and others grandstand on social issues in an attempt to save his job and distract from the fact that his team's physically collapsed the last 7 years in February and March. If he and others were truly as woke and righteous as they claimed they were they would put their actions where their mouth is and give up their $250,000+ job and two homes and give a POC a chance to do better.
In the meantime I'll be ignoring MU's efforts to raise an additional $750MM as they've wasted enough of all our money already with the silly AHPRC and Wojo's lottery winning buyout just to name a few.
Actually, being able to change schools without losing eligibility -- as well as having control over their own names, images and likenesses -- makes athletes MORE like other students.
Unless you know of scholarship dance majors and student journalists who transfer from one school to another and have to sit out a year before they can be scholarship dance majors and student journalists at their new schools.
And of course, lacrosse, wrestling, swimming, volleyball, track and all other scholarship athletes besides those who play basketball, football, baseball and hockey have been in the "wild wild west" forever.
So being able to change schools without having to sit out a year makes these student-athletes like those student- athletes, too.
duanewade can't find anything to complain about during Shaka's first few weeks so now he's just pulling stuff out of his ass.
Quote from: MU82 on April 17, 2021, 01:22:03 PM
Actually, being able to change schools without losing eligibility -- as well as having control over their own names, images and likenesses -- makes athletes MORE like other students.
Unless you know of scholarship dance majors and student journalists who transfer from one school to another and have to sit out a year before they can be scholarship dance majors and student journalists at their new schools.
And of course, lacrosse, wrestling, swimming, volleyball, track and all other scholarship athletes besides those who play basketball, football, baseball and hockey have been in the "wild wild west" forever.
So being able to change schools without having to sit out a year makes these student-athletes like those student- athletes, too.
...but they are not like those student athletes, not even close. How many dance majors or student journalists get full ride scholarships? Heck, all the sports you listed except for basketball and football cannot even offer full scholarships for their entire teams. Would be nice to get a full ride in engineering at MU then transfer to MIT or Cal Tech, but who gets a full ride in engineering. Most student athlete in those other sports are there to have their college education paid so they can pursue their dreams in endeavors other than sports; they are the student athletes. Duanewade is correct; most players at the P5/P6 level are just "guns for hire". The new rules will only affect the high major or marginally high mid-major programs.
Curious: MU prides itself on a high graduation rate in its men basketball program. How many MU (non-walk-ons) basketball players have become successful not related to sports in the last 20 years.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on April 17, 2021, 02:52:02 PM
...but they are not like those student athletes, not even close. How many dance majors or student journalists get full ride scholarships?
How many dance majors earn millions of $$$ for their schools?
"grandstand on social issues"; "woke and righteous"
Okay then.
Quote from: Jockey on April 17, 2021, 03:10:50 PM
How many dance majors earn millions of $$$ for their schools?
Maybe it was dance major that paid Wojo's buyout.
Although this seems very trolly, and I disagree with most of what was in the original OP, in that diatribe there was one important note related to unintended consequences.
It is well known that student transferring after completing their 2nd year, struggle to graduate in 4-years, due to the loss of many of their credits. It is one reason it is strongly advised against transferring to a similar quality institution after completing your 2nd year.
That gap in graduation rates is for students who don't have to worry about a sport taking up at least 50% of their time, and who can then take 15+ credit hours every term. Athletes really aren't afforded that luxury.
That means instant transfer rules will do one of the following: 1) Decrease graduation rates for athletes. 2) Lead to an even larger increase in steering basketball/football players to low credit-hour majors that typically have minimal long-term career options, in order to maintain 4-year graduation rates.
Neither is good.
Quote from: Jockey on April 17, 2021, 03:10:50 PM
How many dance majors earn millions of $$$ for their schools?
Do we count the donations to dance departments, and for dance scholarships, buildings, performances as part of that revenue?
Quote from: forgetful on April 17, 2021, 03:19:19 PM
Although this seems very trolly, and I disagree with most of what was in the original OP, in that diatribe there was one important note related to unintended consequences.
It is well known that student transferring after completing their 2nd year, struggle to graduate in 4-years, due to the loss of many of their credits. It is one reason it is strongly advised against transferring to a similar quality institution after completing your 2nd year.
That gap in graduation rates is for students who don't have to worry about a sport taking up at least 50% of their time, and who can then take 15+ credit hours every term. Athletes really aren't afforded that luxury.
That means instant transfer rules will do one of the following: 1) Decrease graduation rates for athletes. 2) Lead to an even larger increase in steering basketball/football players to low credit-hour majors that typically have minimal long-term career options, in order to maintain 4-year graduation rates.
Neither is good.
We'll see. Athletes in wrestling, golf, volleyball, soccer, lacrosse, swimming, etc etc etc etc have been dealing with this situation forever.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on April 17, 2021, 02:52:02 PM
How many dance majors or student journalists get full ride scholarships? Heck, all the sports you listed except for basketball and football cannot even offer full scholarships for their entire teams.
1. I can't speak for dance, but I know for a fact that the editor of the Marquette Wire (in charge of all student publications) gets a full ride, and that others high in management get at least half-rides.
2. It depends on the school. Some schools are huge in sports such as wrestling, volleyball, lacrosse and golf, and kids in those sports at those schools do get full rides.
So, you're wrong. And that's beside the point, anyway. There is no reason a college basketball player should be treated differently from a college softball player. Not a single reason.
Do you advocate a coach having to sit out a year after "transferring"? Shouldn't Shaka have to sit out this upcoming season?
Quote from: muwarrior69 on April 17, 2021, 02:52:02 PM
Would be nice to get a full ride in engineering at MU then transfer to MIT or Cal Tech, but who gets a full ride in engineering. Most student athlete in those other sports are there to have their college education paid so they can pursue their dreams in endeavors other than sports;
I get that it was different in your era but 30+ years ago when I attended I knew ZERO kids that didn't get at least 75% of their tuition paid for them and today, assuming the Google is accurate, 90% of students receive financial aid. If a kids parents or grandparents pay for their tuition is it not a 'full ride'?
Quote from: MU82 on April 17, 2021, 07:07:20 PM
We'll see. Athletes in wrestling, golf, volleyball, soccer, lacrosse, swimming, etc etc etc etc have been dealing with this situation forever.
I agree. But the incidence of transfers in those sports is much much lower. Largely, because their sport is usually a means to their education, and transferring would delay their graduation.
In D1 football and basketball, for many/most of them, their sport is their means to their post graduate plans, as such being set back on their degree doesn't matter as much to them.
It's fine to say, ok, do what is best for the individual and let them decide for themselves. I understand that logic.
But then it is also admitting that they really aren't student athletes. They are athletes that are required to be students.
Sports that lose money should be relegated to club sports. The athletes in money making sports should be signing contracts just like the coaches. School should be optional for said athletes.
Quote from: MU82 on April 17, 2021, 07:07:20 PM
1. I can't speak for dance, but I know for a fact that the editor of the Marquette Wire (in charge of all student publications) gets a full ride, and that others high in management get at least half-rides.
This is not accurate. There is compensation for managers at The Wire, but it's nowhere near half- or full-rides.
The tone of the original post sucks, but he or she makes some legitimate points regarding the role and influence of athletics at universities.
Quote from: naginiF on April 17, 2021, 07:30:26 PM
I get that it was different in your era but 30+ years ago when I attended I knew ZERO kids that didn't get at least 75% of their tuition paid for them and today, assuming the Google is accurate, 90% of students receive financial aid. If a kids parents or grandparents pay for their tuition is it not a 'full ride'?
In my time many students worked their way through school as tuition costs were affordable. The money I earned over the summer was enough to pay for one semester. Some students got a break on tuition because they had one or more siblings attending at the same time. The only full academic scholarship that students got were ROTC students on condition they serve 2 years after graduation. My parents paid for most of my tuition; they did not consider that a free ride and neither did I. Getting a BS or BA had value back then; not so much today.
In the 60s and 70s athletes were students. One of Al's players became very successful outside of basketball:
Ulice Payne Jr. is the managing member of Addison-Clifton, LLC, an advisor regarding global trade compliance solutions. He previously served as the managing partner of the headquarter office of the Foley & Lardner LLP law firm and also served as chair of the International Business Team. Ulyce Graduated Marquette in '78 and Law School in '82. Yes he got paid to go to school and for him it paid very well.
Even Shaka admitted he had NBA dream but he wasn't that good of a player and yet he finished school and is making more than just a good living coaching the sport he loves. Most of these kids will never play in the NBA and be lucky to play in the Euro leagues which is why it is important to emphasize that they are there not just to play basketball but to get their degree.
Quote from: forgetful on April 17, 2021, 07:32:27 PM
I agree. But the incidence of transfers in those sports is much much lower. Largely, because their sport is usually a means to their education, and transferring would delay their graduation.
In D1 football and basketball, for many/most of them, their sport is their means to their post graduate plans, as such being set back on their degree doesn't matter as much to them.
It's fine to say, ok, do what is best for the individual and let them decide for themselves. I understand that logic.
But then it is also admitting that they really aren't student athletes. They are athletes that are required to be students.
I'm ok with the individuals deciding for themselves. Call them whatever you want.
Quote from: Royale on April 17, 2021, 10:15:33 PM
This is not accurate. There is compensation for managers at The Wire, but it's nowhere near half- or full-rides.
The tone of the original post sucks, but he or she makes some legitimate points regarding the role and influence of athletics at universities.
What I said IS accurate.
It was true back in 1982, when the Marquette Trib editor-in-chief got a full ride.
And it was true two years ago, when on a visit to the J-School I came right out and asked the Marquette Wire editor if she got a full scholarship and she said she did.
And she could have transferred to Vanderbilt or Wake Forest or Mizzou the following year, gotten a full scholarship to be THEIR editor, and wouldn't have had to sit out a year.
Anyway, all of these fun arguments are moot. Athletes in basketball, football, hockey and baseball are finally getting the freedoms they should have had all along. The ruling has been made. So folks either need to deal with it or stop being fans.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on April 17, 2021, 10:35:43 PM
In the 60s and 70s athletes were students.
I can't speak for other sports, but if you think Al's players spent more time in the classroom than the current players....I've got a bridge in Alaska to sell you.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on April 17, 2021, 10:35:43 PM
In my time many students worked their way through school as tuition costs were affordable. The money I earned over the summer was enough to pay for one semester. Some students got a break on tuition because they had one or more siblings attending at the same time. The only full academic scholarship that students got were ROTC students on condition they serve 2 years after graduation. My parents paid for most of my tuition; they did not consider that a free ride and neither did I. Getting a BS or BA had value back then; not so much today.
In the 60s and 70s athletes were students. One of Al's players became very successful outside of basketball:
Ulice Payne Jr. is the managing member of Addison-Clifton, LLC, an advisor regarding global trade compliance solutions. He previously served as the managing partner of the headquarter office of the Foley & Lardner LLP law firm and also served as chair of the International Business Team. Ulyce Graduated Marquette in '78 and Law School in '82. Yes he got paid to go to school and for him it paid very well.
Even Shaka admitted he had NBA dream but he wasn't that good of a player and yet he finished school and is making more than just a good living coaching the sport he loves. Most of these kids will never play in the NBA and be lucky to play in the Euro leagues which is why it is important to emphasize that they are there not just to play basketball but to get their degree.
You know what else has changed since your time?
Freshmen were allowed to play on the varsity, dunking became legal, Title IX gave women considerably more rights to compete as scholarship athletes, the shot clock and 3-point shot became part of basketball, scholarships were reduced significantly in football to keep the biggest programs from hoarding talent, TV rights became worth billions of dollars, D1 college football adopted a playoff system, and even mediocre basketball and football coaches at the dozens of biggest schools became millionaires. Among other things.
And along the way, there were folks who protested all of that stuff, saying it would ruin college basketball and/or football. And yet here those sports are, clearly not ruined.
I mean, years ago, there were schools that refused to recruit Black athletes -- and that discrimination was justified as "defending tradition."
Change happens. Deal with it. It's not "your time" any more, thank goodness.
Quote from: MU82 on April 17, 2021, 11:42:06 PM
..."The ruling has been made. So folks either need to deal with it or stop being fans."
I always love these "the discussion is settled" type of statements with the only two options apparently available are to either deal with it or walk away. The decision may have been made but that's not what was being debated here. It was whether the right decision has been made. Time will tell if it was in fact the right decision or whether there may have been a better decision to consider. Either way, discussion or debate will and should continue on this as that is truly the only path to a solution that is best for all parties.
Case in point; as you yourself point out in another post that things change and while this ruling may satisfy you today, at some point in the future, when things have changed further, this ruling may not serve its intended purpose. So given that, what purpose would it serve to just "deal with it" or walk away?
1. Transfers weren't allowed almost entirely because coaches didn't want them to, not because of any concern about the student athlete. And student athletes are adults who can make their own decisions regarding whether or not a transfer is worth it.
2. The OP only typed this post because he's still pissed that the players support causes he doesn't.
Quote from: joparks on April 18, 2021, 03:24:55 AM
I always love these "the discussion is settled" type of statements with the only two options apparently available are to either deal with it or walk away. The decision may have been made but that's not what was being debated here. It was whether the right decision has been made. Time will tell if it was in fact the right decision or whether there may have been a better decision to consider. Either way, discussion or debate will and should continue on this as that is truly the only path to a solution that is best for all parties.
Case in point; as you yourself point out in another post that things change and while this ruling may satisfy you today, at some point in the future, when things have changed further, this ruling may not serve its intended purpose. So given that, what purpose would it serve to just "deal with it" or walk away?
Reasonable take.
But the reason we have to deal with it or walk away is that we knew it was coming for more than a year, we don't have any control over it, and maybe we should at least see how things work before we say it sucks because it's not the way things were in the good ol' days when athletes were indentured servants whose sole purpose was to make everybody else money while they entertain us.
Quote from: MU82 on April 18, 2021, 08:54:07 AM
Reasonable take.
But the reason we have to deal with it or walk away is that we knew it was coming for more than a year, we don't have any control over it, and maybe we should at least see how things work before we say it sucks because it's not the way things were in the good ol' days when athletes were indentured servants whose sole purpose was to make everybody else money while they entertain us.
Comparing athletes today to indentured servants is a huge insult to actual indentured servants.
Quote from: TheyWereCones on April 18, 2021, 10:18:37 AM
Comparing athletes today to indentured servants is a huge insult to actual indentured servants.
MU82's use of hyperbole usually makes his arguments look worse than they are.
I always considered a $38,000yr. Tuition a payment.
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on April 18, 2021, 10:47:05 AM
I always considered a $38,000yr. Tuition a payment.
Why shouldn't student athletes be able to earn off their name, image or likeness like any other student on scholarship?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on April 18, 2021, 10:53:52 AM
Why shouldn't student athletes be able to earn off their name, image or likeness like any other student on scholarship?
Because George Mikan, Dean Meminger and Terrell Schlundt couldn't. Duh.