Smuggles and others have gone big on the worst-case scenario: Shaka will be the next Wojo.
What do folks think is the best-case scenario for Shaka Smart at Marquette? I'll start ...
Shaka takes what he did best at Texas (recruit great players) and combines it with what he did best at VCU (play an exciting brand of up-tempo basketball that forces opponents to succumb). Our program returns to consistent Buzz-level success, and perhaps even better because Shaka will recruit better than Buzz did. Having already proven to himself that basketball-coaching life isn't necessarily better at a "name" school or in a "major" conference, Shaka truly builds something lasting at Marquette. So even after he establishes himself as a top-10 coach, he is not looking to leave. He becomes our Mark Few, our Jay Wright. Every Marquette basketball game is an event again, and every season brings legitimate hope of something truly special happening.
If we run a 1-2-1-1 full court press and recruit to that style, we will be a perennial top 3 team in the Big East and Shaka will stay here for 10+ years.
If we don't - we may get Wojo all over again.
Quote from: MU82 on March 26, 2021, 12:27:10 PM
Smuggles and others have gone big on the worst-case scenario: Shaka will be the next Wojo.
What do folks think is the best-case scenario for Shaka Smart at Marquette? I'll start ...
Shaka takes what he did best at Texas (recruit great players) and combines it with what he did best at VCU (play an exciting brand of up-tempo basketball that forces opponents to succumb). Our program returns to consistent Buzz-level success, and perhaps even better because Shaka will recruit better than Buzz did. Having already proven to himself that basketball-coaching life isn't necessarily better at a "name" school or in a "major" conference, Shaka truly builds something lasting at Marquette. So even after he establishes himself as a top-10 coach, he is not looking to leave. He becomes our Mark Few, our Jay Wright. Every Marquette basketball game is an event again, and every season brings legitimate hope of something truly special happening.
You had me at consistent.
Quote from: MU82 on March 26, 2021, 12:27:10 PM
Smuggles and others have gone big on the worst-case scenario: Shaka will be the next Wojo.
Haven't you also spewed the equivalent of that for the last week?
The BE was put on notice today that MU is back in the basketball business. I believe Shaka/MU can raise the bar to lofty levels. All of the pieces are in place and I truthfully believe MU has a chance to become a top ten program again.
Quote from: Richard Shaw's Retired Number on March 26, 2021, 12:32:50 PM
Haven't you also spewed the equivalent of that for the last week?
I have stated my position today. I choose to accentuate the positives.
Now, what do you think Shaka's ceiling is.
Quote from: MU82 on March 26, 2021, 12:43:05 PM
I have stated my position today. I choose to accentuate the positives.
Now, what do you think Shaka's ceiling is.
I believe his ceiling is probably in line with Bo Ryan, honestly. Or in the Buzz Williams neighborhood. Here more than a decade, good recruiting to mesh with an exciting and successful system. He's (most) likely not going to be the next Jay Wright. But just don't think his floor is very low. Compared to Wojo, it's almost nonexistent for me. I'm excited.
Quote from: Richard Shaw's Retired Number on March 26, 2021, 02:00:28 PM
I believe his ceiling is probably in line with Bo Ryan, honestly. Or in the Buzz Williams neighborhood. Here more than a decade, good recruiting to mesh with an exciting and successful system. He's (most) likely not going to be the next Jay Wright. But just don't think his floor is very low. Compared to Wojo, it's almost nonexistent for me. I'm excited.
Very realistic.
Quote from: Richard Shaw's Retired Number on March 26, 2021, 02:00:28 PM
I believe his ceiling is probably in line with Bo Ryan, honestly. Or in the Buzz Williams neighborhood. Here more than a decade, good recruiting to mesh with an exciting and successful system. He's (most) likely not going to be the next Jay Wright. But just don't think his floor is very low. Compared to Wojo, it's almost nonexistent for me. I'm excited.
Good to see you back as well as a few other posters today.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 26, 2021, 02:18:28 PM
Good to see you back as well as a few other posters today.
#Scoop4ever! Thanks - I am excited and optimistic he will thrive here. Hopefully that means a lot of March wins.
What's the height of the Fiserv Forum?
Shaka's ceiling is 1 or more Nattys, aina?
I would put Shaka's ceiling at MU in the 'good-Buzz' range.
And then the complaints will start that MU can't make the final 4.
(https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/05/8f/02/ca/mcguire-s-irish-pub-brewery.jpg)
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 26, 2021, 02:48:49 PM
Shaka's ceiling is 1 or more Nattys, aina?
You know, it's nice to see so many Scoopers so happy and so optimistic. It's been a while.
I think that Shaka's ceiling is a national championship. For the record, I also think that Moser and Gates had the same ceiling. With Marquette's resources, I honestly think any quality coach has a shot at a championship (which is how I interpret the word "ceiling"). I'm not saying that I think a championship is likely -- winning it all is extremely difficult and, as some have said, the tournament is a crapshoot. But Marquette provides the resources and it's possible. I think that a FF is a much more realistic "ceiling" -- but once you're playing on the third weekend anything can happen. I think that under Shaka, within a couple of years (if not sooner) we'll be very competitive in the Big East (i.e., consistently top 3-4 and making semis and finals in BET), in the NCAA tournament most years with occasional top 4 seeds and winning some games and playing on the second weekend. Again, I thought the same with Moser or Gates. I guess what I'm saying is that with Marquette's resources these are the things that I think a quality coach should be able to do. We were just in the enviable situation of having several quality coaches as candidates for the position.
The more I've thought about it today, I think that one of the real benefits of Shaka is not so much how high the ceiling is, but how high his floor is. Honestly, had I thought about this more in the last few days, maybe he would have been my first choice. I think that Shaka's floor is the same as what we had with Wojo overall. That sucked, and I don't recall ever being so down on MU basketball, but it could be worse. We know Shaka is going to recruit and he's shown he can coach. I really have a hard time imagining him lower than middle of the pack in the Big East with maybe an occasional really bad season near the bottom - kind of like Wojo. This wasn't acceptable from Wojo, and it won't be acceptable from Shaka. But, with both Moser and Gates, there was a more significant downside risk that things would go really badly -- if Moser can't recruit high major talent or if Gates just can't coach at a high level. I don't think that either of those were likely, but they were risks because those guys are unknown entities as HC at the high-major level. If either of those occurred, things could be really, really ugly. I just don't see a risk of a total trainwreck with Shaka. Even with the performance at UT that caused some of us (including me) to not be terribly impressed, he was pretty competitive and really the only black mark was underperforming in March.
Ceiling ??
Top 25 again, BE title (s) and a FF
Quote from: StillAWarrior on March 26, 2021, 04:24:17 PM
I think that Shaka's ceiling is a national championship. For the record, I also think that Moser and Gates had the same ceiling. With Marquette's resources, I honestly think any quality coach has a shot at a championship (which is how I interpret the word "ceiling"). I'm not saying that I think a championship is likely -- winning it all is extremely difficult and, as some have said, the tournament is a crapshoot. But Marquette provides the resources and it's possible. I think that a FF is a much more realistic "ceiling" -- but once you're playing on the third weekend anything can happen. I think that under Shaka, within a couple of years (if not sooner) we'll be very competitive in the Big East (i.e., consistently top 3-4 and making semis and finals in BET), in the NCAA tournament most years with occasional top 4 seeds and winning some games and playing on the second weekend. Again, I thought the same with Moser or Gates. I guess what I'm saying is that with Marquette's resources these are the things that I think a quality coach should be able to do. We were just in the enviable situation of having several quality coaches as candidates for the position.
The more I've thought about it today, I think that one of the real benefits of Shaka is not so much how high the ceiling is, but how high his floor is. Honestly, had I thought about this more in the last few days, maybe he would have been my first choice. I think that Shaka's floor is the same as what we had with Wojo overall. That sucked, and I don't recall ever being so down on MU basketball, but it could be worse. We know Shaka is going to recruit and he's shown he can coach. I really have a hard time imagining him lower than middle of the pack in the Big East with maybe an occasional really bad season near the bottom - kind of like Wojo. This wasn't acceptable from Wojo, and it won't be acceptable from Shaka. But, with both Moser and Gates, there was a more significant downside risk that things would go really badly -- if Moser can't recruit high major talent or if Gates just can't coach at a high level. I don't think that either of those were likely, but they were risks because those guys are unknown entities as HC at the high-major level. If either of those occurred, things could be really, really ugly. I just don't seek a risk of a total trainwreck with Shaka. Even with the performance at UT that caused some of us (including me) to not be terribly impressed, he was pretty competitive and really the only black mark was underperforming in March.
I love this insightful comment, and I agree.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on March 26, 2021, 04:24:17 PM
I think that Shaka's ceiling is a national championship. For the record, I also think that Moser and Gates had the same ceiling. With Marquette's resources, I honestly think any quality coach has a shot at a championship (which is how I interpret the word "ceiling"). I'm not saying that I think a championship is likely -- winning it all is extremely difficult and, as some have said, the tournament is a crapshoot. But Marquette provides the resources and it's possible. I think that a FF is a much more realistic "ceiling" -- but once you're playing on the third weekend anything can happen. I think that under Shaka, within a couple of years (if not sooner) we'll be very competitive in the Big East (i.e., consistently top 3-4 and making semis and finals in BET), in the NCAA tournament most years with occasional top 4 seeds and winning some games and playing on the second weekend. Again, I thought the same with Moser or Gates. I guess what I'm saying is that with Marquette's resources these are the things that I think a quality coach should be able to do. We were just in the enviable situation of having several quality coaches as candidates for the position.
The more I've thought about it today, I think that one of the real benefits of Shaka is not so much how high the ceiling is, but how high his floor is. Honestly, had I thought about this more in the last few days, maybe he would have been my first choice. I think that Shaka's floor is the same as what we had with Wojo overall. That sucked, and I don't recall ever being so down on MU basketball, but it could be worse. We know Shaka is going to recruit and he's shown he can coach. I really have a hard time imagining him lower than middle of the pack in the Big East with maybe an occasional really bad season near the bottom - kind of like Wojo. This wasn't acceptable from Wojo, and it won't be acceptable from Shaka. But, with both Moser and Gates, there was a more significant downside risk that things would go really badly -- if Moser can't recruit high major talent or if Gates just can't coach at a high level. I don't think that either of those were likely, but they were risks because those guys are unknown entities as HC at the high-major level. If either of those occurred, things could be really, really ugly. I just don't seek a risk of a total trainwreck with Shaka. Even with the performance at UT that caused some of us (including me) to not be terribly impressed, he was pretty competitive and really the only black mark was underperforming in March.
Yes, Smart has a higher floor than most of the other coaching candidates and is still quite young. It was the safe hire who just happened to be a Wisco native as well. There's a good chance he could be here the rest of his coaching career.
On the flipside, keep an eye on Dennis Gates at Cleveland St. He could be the next "Elite Level Coach"
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on March 26, 2021, 04:35:33 PM
Yes, Smart has a higher floor than most of the other coaching candidates and is still quite young. It was the safe hire who just happened to be a Wisco native as well. There's a good chance he could be here the rest of his coaching career.
On the flipside, keep an eye on Dennis Gates at Cleveland St. He could be the next "Elite Level Coach"
I actually voted for Gates on the thread that had a poll. I was back and forth between him and Moser. I really do think he'll be a great coach somewhere.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on March 26, 2021, 04:38:38 PM
I actually voted for Gates on the thread that had a poll. I was back and forth between him and Moser. I really do think he'll be a great coach somewhere.
I wanted Gates as well, but I think he was too much risk for MU. MU wanted the homegrown guy who would make this his final destination while being competitive. After reading about Gates, he just seems to have that "Elite Quality" about him.
I mean hell, Al didn't exactly light it up at Belmont Abbey either.
Young exciting coach with a lot of potential coming in with a chip on his shoulder. Who knows? But it does inject some life into the program.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on March 26, 2021, 04:43:31 PM
I mean hell, Al didn't exactly light it up at Belmont Abbey
Yeah, Al rather drove the Abbey into the ground year by year. His 7 seasons there chronologically:
24-3
21-2
19-5
17-6
15-8
7-21
6-18
Al got out before the sheriff arrived. A miraculous hire by MU!
Quote from: StillAWarrior on March 26, 2021, 04:24:17 PM
I think that Shaka's ceiling is a national championship. For the record, I also think that Moser and Gates had the same ceiling. With Marquette's resources, I honestly think any quality coach has a shot at a championship (which is how I interpret the word "ceiling"). I'm not saying that I think a championship is likely -- winning it all is extremely difficult and, as some have said, the tournament is a crapshoot. But Marquette provides the resources and it's possible. I think that a FF is a much more realistic "ceiling" -- but once you're playing on the third weekend anything can happen. I think that under Shaka, within a couple of years (if not sooner) we'll be very competitive in the Big East (i.e., consistently top 3-4 and making semis and finals in BET), in the NCAA tournament most years with occasional top 4 seeds and winning some games and playing on the second weekend. Again, I thought the same with Moser or Gates. I guess what I'm saying is that with Marquette's resources these are the things that I think a quality coach should be able to do. We were just in the enviable situation of having several quality coaches as candidates for the position.
The more I've thought about it today, I think that one of the real benefits of Shaka is not so much how high the ceiling is, but how high his floor is. Honestly, had I thought about this more in the last few days, maybe he would have been my first choice. I think that Shaka's floor is the same as what we had with Wojo overall. That sucked, and I don't recall ever being so down on MU basketball, but it could be worse. We know Shaka is going to recruit and he's shown he can coach. I really have a hard time imagining him lower than middle of the pack in the Big East with maybe an occasional really bad season near the bottom - kind of like Wojo. This wasn't acceptable from Wojo, and it won't be acceptable from Shaka. But, with both Moser and Gates, there was a more significant downside risk that things would go really badly -- if Moser can't recruit high major talent or if Gates just can't coach at a high level. I don't think that either of those were likely, but they were risks because those guys are unknown entities as HC at the high-major level. If either of those occurred, things could be really, really ugly. I just don't see a risk of a total trainwreck with Shaka. Even with the performance at UT that caused some of us (including me) to not be terribly impressed, he was pretty competitive and really the only black mark was underperforming in March.
I agree with this.
Very high ceiling...just like Moser and Gates. Reasonably high floor...probably highest of the three.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/5cb8437d95658b9c23ed9f792058de50/tenor.gif?itemid=10752177)
Quote from: Nukem2 on March 26, 2021, 04:51:12 PM
Yeah, Al rather drove the Abbey into the ground year by year. His 7 seasons there chronologically:
24-3
21-2
19-5
17-6
15-8
7-21
6-18
Al got out before the sheriff arrived. A miraculous hire by MU!
Can you imagine if there was a scoop in '64.
By all accounts, Gates will have a successful career and he'd do a great job at MU. But taking him over Shaka would be difficult given Shaka's high profile and the stability should he succeed as we hope. Its the first time in awhile in which I know we got better today. Welcome Shaka!
shaka's a players coach. i realize he's a good recruiter. i just wonder if he will be able to maintain our core of carton, garcia and lewis. who would he or does he need to keep of this core? i believe he's a dude that players want to play for.
i've also heard our incoming class is pretty good. what affect will this have of any of them?
There is no reason to believe that Marquette cannot win a national title. So that would be the ceiling of any hire.
That, obviously, is not the expectation. This is somewhat colored by the previous coach, but I believe a reasonable expectation for Shaka (and any coach MU would have hired) would be to make the tournament (or at least be on the bubble) 4/5 years, finish in the top half of the conference every year, show progress from the beginning of each season to the end and have a track record of making the players you recruit into the program better.
I couldn't care less if he gets top 20, top 50 or top 100 classes. Find guys that fit your system. Coach them up. Develop a culture. Develop an identity.
I didn't care much for Buzz, but he won games and those teams had an identity. You knew they would fight. You knew it wasn't going to be easy to play against them. But you also knew that some years, it wasn't going to be pretty offensively. That's who MU was at that time.
Wojo never had an identity ... other than falling apart at the end of the season and not being able to manage the stars in the program. His teams were never better at the end of the season. Very few, if any, players got better the longer they stayed (with Sacar Anim being the outlier.)
I really wanted Porter Moser. I think he could have been here for 25 years. But I think Shaka could be here for 10 and have a few teams worthy of a Final Four run. I think next year's team, if the Big 3 come back, could make a Sweet 16.
I think Shaka's absolute floor is close to what Wojo had the last four years. Two decent teams, an average team and a stinker. It's a low risk, high reward hire.
Quote from: DefinitelyNotPorterMoser on March 26, 2021, 08:23:49 PM
There is no reason to believe that Marquette cannot win a national title. So that would be the ceiling of any hire.
That, obviously, is not the expectation. This is somewhat colored by the previous coach, but I believe a reasonable expectation for Shaka (and any coach MU would have hired) would be to make the tournament (or at least be on the bubble) 4/5 years, finish in the top half of the conference every year, show progress from the beginning of each season to the end and have a track record of making the players you recruit into the program better.
I couldn't care less if he gets top 20, top 50 or top 100 classes. Find guys that fit your system. Coach them up. Develop a culture. Develop an identity.
I didn't care much for Buzz, but he won games and those teams had an identity. You knew they would fight. You knew it wasn't going to be easy to play against them. But you also knew that some years, it wasn't going to be pretty offensively. That's who MU was at that time.
Wojo never had an identity ... other than falling apart at the end of the season and not being able to manage the stars in the program. His teams were never better at the end of the season. Very few, if any, players got better the longer they stayed (with Sacar Anim being the outlier.)
I really wanted Porter Moser. I think he could have been here for 25 years. But I think Shaka could be here for 10 and have a few teams worthy of a Final Four run. I think next year's team, if the Big 3 come back, could make a Sweet 16.
I think Shaka's absolute floor is close to what Wojo had the last four years. Two decent teams, an average team and a stinker. It's a low risk, high reward hire.
There is a lot there, but you honestly think a coach is going to run a program into his late 70s?
10 days ago, if you had asked anyone that follows college if Shaka Smart, the 43-year-old coach of a top-15, 3-seed, would make another Final Four in his career, the answer would be a resounding yes. He was at a major program, coaching one of the best teams in the country, and likely has 20+ years left to go. Of course he'll reach another Final Four.
And if you can reach a Final Four, if everyone in the college basketball world would expect you to get to a Final Four, you can win a National Championship.
So what changed? Shaka is still one of the best recruiters in the country. He's still one of the most consistently good defensive coaches in the country. All that changed was his zip code.
His ceiling is a National Championship. A Final Four coach at a high major with his recruiting ability and remaining career longevity could absolutely win the biggest prize in the sport. That doesn't mean he will. That doesn't mean he should. But ceiling? Winning a National Championship. And if he does that, anything else is gravy.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 26, 2021, 08:30:02 PM
There is a lot there, but you honestly think a coach is going to run a program into his late 70s?
25 may have been a bit much, but Porter may have to beat a 74-year-old coach to get to the Final Four on Monday.
Quote from: DefinitelyNotPorterMoser on March 26, 2021, 08:39:51 PM
25 may have been a bit much, but Porter may have to beat a 74-year-old coach to get to the Final Four on Monday.
Nope he's losing to a guy that is 55
I am very enthusiastic about the potential that Shaka brings to MU. Here is my view to his ceiling.
1. He brings instant recruiting currency. He can spend that on retaining the guys in our program that he wants or bring in equally talented players.
1a. Shaka will be able to engage the local Wisconsin talent in a way that Wojo wasn't able to .
2. Because of the Shaka recruiting currency, we don't have to endure a Dodd's style endless rebuilds are a bitch mode that we had to do with Wojo.
3 . The Big East is a tough league , but everyone is in a relatively similar mode with the exception of Nova at the Top and DePaul at the bottom. MU, with the assets it brings to the table, can move into that 2 or 3 spot in the league with a Shaka energized program.
4. When your program has a solid conference result, the seeding in the NCAA tournament is better. More 1,2,3 and 4 seeds.
5. With Better Seeding more potential to get through to Sweet 16. From there anything is possible.
6. With the right roster, with the requisite pogo stick types which I believe Shaka can access, He can get us back in the running for a Natty.
The floor for Shaka is also relatively high, basically a continuation of what we already have. So he is the low risk/ high reward candidate.
Agree with others that his ceiling is a National Championship. What excites me most about him, however, is his floor, which I think is *at least* Crean and Buzz level success, if not a little bit better. Wojo couldn't even sniff that. This will be fun, and a huge relief to Marquette fans after seven mediocre to lousy seasons. Fiserv will be bumping next winter.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 26, 2021, 08:38:05 PM
10 days ago, if you had asked anyone that follows college if Shaka Smart, the 43-year-old coach of a top-15, 3-seed, would make another Final Four in his career, the answer would be a resounding yes. He was at a major program, coaching one of the best teams in the country, and likely has 20+ years left to go. Of course he'll reach another Final Four.
And if you can reach a Final Four, if everyone in the college basketball world would expect you to get to a Final Four, you can win a National Championship.
So what changed? Shaka is still one of the best recruiters in the country. He's still one of the most consistently good defensive coaches in the country. All that changed was his zip code.
His ceiling is a National Championship. A Final Four coach at a high major with his recruiting ability and remaining career longevity could absolutely win the biggest prize in the sport. That doesn't mean he will. That doesn't mean he should. But ceiling? Winning a National Championship. And if he does that, anything else is gravy.
I want to thank you, brew, because your takes along these lines helped convince me that I overreacted initially to Shaka's loss to Abilene Christian.