Seems like they lost out on a bid due to their relatively weak A10 schedule. The BE could go to a 12 member, 6 team division with a midwest add. The question would be whether they would add anything to the Fox contract as UCONN likely did. Purely from a MU perspective, there were some great games with a very natural rival.
No
Why not. With Mzu and DePaul in BEast, another mid major like SLU would complement them.
The only addition that would benefit the Big East is Gonzaga, and has been discussed ad nauseam is logistically a near impossibility.
MU jumped to the BE because it was playing teams like SLU.
They'd bring a Billiken.
Quote from: Warrior of Law on March 15, 2021, 04:28:13 AM
Seems like they lost out on a bid due to their relatively weak A10 schedule. The BE could go to a 12 member, 6 team division with a midwest add. The question would be whether they would add anything to the Fox contract as UCONN likely did. Purely from a MU perspective, there were some great games with a very natural rival.
I don't recall that many great games vs SLU. A few in the '80's maybe? When the revamped BE took off, i did think SLU, based on market, made more sense than Creighton. But, CU has been a very good program. If there's sincere interest in a Midwest add, probably Loyola more-so than SLU considering Loyola's recent FF and Chicago market.
Should we bring back Warriors?
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 15, 2021, 06:45:12 AM
Should we bring back Warriors?
Whaddabout football? See if we can finagle a spot in the ACC?
From a Marquette perspective, the BE needs more teams that MU can be competitive with, so SLU would be a good addition.
We could beat them half the time! Probably.
11 is the perfect number for a round robin 20 game conference schedule. Wouldn't be shocked to see the Big 12 add an 11th team like a Wichita State or a BYU for basketball soon.
Only reason to add SLU is the the market. St. Louis is a new city to add to the territory but that means nothing since Big East does not have it's own network like some of the other conferences.
Quote from: Badgerhater on March 15, 2021, 06:25:21 AM
MU jumped to the BE because it was playing teams like SLU.
These egotistical views don't work anymore as we have turned into SLU. I would be fine with adding them if it doesn't take money away from MU.
No. This discussion is ridiculous. The Big East does not need another market. The Big East doesn't need to add a program that brings nothing to the table. End of story
Quote from: Marq3332 on March 15, 2021, 06:37:32 AM
I don't recall that many great games vs SLU. A few in the '80's maybe? When the revamped BE took off, i did think SLU, based on market, made more sense than Creighton. But, CU has been a very good program. If there's sincere interest in a Midwest add, probably Loyola more-so than SLU considering Loyola's recent FF and Chicago market.
We were in the same conference (Great Midwest and Conference USA) as SLU between 1991 and 2004.
IMO the reason Creighton got the BE bid over SLU was due to Creighton really emerging as a basketball program and due to SLU's leadership issues at the exact wrong time.
But no, SLU does nothing for the BE to warrant splitting the pie another way. I agree that Gonzaga is the only program presently that would.
DePaul likely would block Loyola of Chicago's entry into the Big East.
SLU, forget it. Market isn't significant enough and team isn't good enough. However, if they did join, could see the Big East breaking into divisions as follows:
MU
Creighton
DePaul
Xavier
SLU
Butler
UConn
Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
St. John's
Seton Hall
Would have really nice balance.
Depaul and Marquette out, SLU and witchita state in? Would probably make the conference more competitive.
I don't want to see SLU in the Big East, and don't think they'd add much to the conference, but we're not really in a position to be acting like we're above other programs at this point.
They would bring a quality pizza.
My Father in law played basketball for SLUH for Hank Raymond's and was offered a college scholarship by Hank Raymonds. My Wife's Uncle was President of SLU High for many years. The college seems to have been generating many high end donors lately from my distant observations. But I do not know if they would be a good addition.
Quote from: dgies9156 on March 15, 2021, 08:04:44 AM
DePaul likely would block Loyola of Chicago's entry into the Big East.
SLU, forget it. Market isn't significant enough and team isn't good enough. However, if they did join, could see the Big East breaking into divisions as follows:
MU
Creighton
DePaul
Xavier
SLU
Butler
UConn
Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
St. John's
Seton Hall
Would have really nice balance.
Awful. Looks like B1G football with a clear upper and lower division. Guess which one Marquette is in.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on March 15, 2021, 08:49:51 AM
Awful. Looks like B1G football with a clear upper and lower division. Guess which one Marquette is in.
Yeah, not good at all. The real Big East out east and the bolt-on Big East in the midwest. We don't need to kneecap our program any further.
For some reason (maybe thinking 80s-90s), I thought they drew large crowds. Fact is, they play on campus in a 10K seat arena, and draw 6K. My guess is that there's not a lot of eyeballs on SLU games outside of those attending games. Probably would be a net drain on league TV revenues.
Marquette is gonna suck at basketball from now on, never ever ever to be good again.
So we might as well go to the Summit League and let SLU have our BEast spot.
Quote from: MU82 on March 15, 2021, 09:01:18 AM
Marquette is gonna suck at basketball from now on, never ever ever to be good again.
So we might as well go to the Summit League and let SLU have our BEast spot.
Summit? Drop to D3 IMO
Yeah, right now they'd bring another team to finish in front of us.....
Quote from: Uncle Rico on March 15, 2021, 09:05:27 AM
Summit? Drop to D3 IMO
Maybe just do the club basketball thing, like we did with football.
Because, you know, when you miss the NCAA tournament 1 consecutive season, why even bother continuing with the sport?
The only teams from a mid major conference that would bring enough eyeballs to justify the move are Gonzaga and BYU. Neither work for obvious reasons. If another P6 school wanted to move for some reason it may make sense
The short answer is SLU would do just fine in the BIg East for a variety of reasons.
The longer answer is a mix of past, present, future, resources, commitment, and even some pyschological insecurities.
This board has many, (many more than I thought when I joined, umm older folk which is all good 👍) who seem to have short term memories. They have blocked out the Bob Dukiet days, the days when Kevin O'Neill said he had to shield prospective recruits from panhandlers while showing campus. They have blocked out hitting their head in the Old Gym basement while walking to the back weight room while watching the basketball team use a tiny weight room at the same time as several other uiversity athletic teams in comical fashion.
There is a strange, but perhaps understandable psychological insecurity for some that a former league team somehow triggers past memories of MUBB not being in the Big East, as if it meant MUBB would leave the Big East and go back to that or something else. And some of these people irrationally cling with all of their might to that.
Part of that of course is that to some and for some, MUBB isn't all that and a bag of chips, and, it stings a little bit for those MUBB people. So if MUBB can't be all that, it certainly has to be better than teams from non Power 5/Big East, right?
Marquette could have been Villanova, winning a few recent National Titles, and, Marquette could have been SLU.
The question is how would SLU be in the Big East today. I 'll get back to that in a minute.
How did we get here?
As some here know, University Administration matters. Timing also matters. There is quite a spirited discussion in another current thread about MU President, Admin, Board etc...
SLU's former school President had little interest in Athletics. He was there 25 years. He also did not have the people skills and networking skills of a Tim Lannon for example. We all know Fr. Lannon, yes? Former Marquette Vice President that later became President of Creighton after former Marquette Dean of Arts and Sciences John Schlegel.
Memories fade over time. KO had 1 good season out of 3 in Great Midwest. Tom Crean had 2 out of 6 strong seasons. SLU was competitive with MUBB despite some of their disadvantages. And people showed up. Top 25 attendance years etc...
It's interesting what some people notice and don't notice. Things can go a lot of different ways.
Back to the question, how would SLU do now, moving forward?
Do they have the facilities? They do. They built a $100 Million on campus Arena with several practice courts and bells and whistles this past decade. It's full when they are competitive. People showed up for Spoon, for the Majerus era, for Ford. Marquette fans know what that is like with all of the attendance threads, students, etc...more revenue, more resources each time you step up a league.
What about that Admin? They no longer have the same school President blocking that path. And he came from a school that understands and supports basketball. They do still have some BOT issues. But they also have their own Dick Strong in Richard Chaifetz. Their AD (whom Majerus picked,) has done well with a variety of coaching hires thus far. They don't want for as much as the past.
The market is top 20 and bigger than several markets already in the Big East. The basketball interest level is already there. Give them a Power 5/Big East League to see and watch, and that only improves.
Are they competitive now? They are. They have been under the past few eras. And, people are still showing up.
Marquette has made the NCAA's 3 out of 8 years. Crean made them 5 out of 9. Buzz made them 5 of 6 Deane made them 2 out of 5 years. Kevin O'Neill made them 2 out of 4 years. Bob Dukiet made them 0 out of 3 years. Rick made them 0 of 3 years, going back four decades.
When Creighton joined the Big East, they had made the NCAA's just 2 of the previous 6 seasons. Since joining the Big East, they have made it 5 of 8 years. And, they have a top 3 league finish 6 of their 8 years, including a regular season league title.
So what is the point of this example? It shows teams can and do elevate when they join a better league, and/or have more resources so that you can compare apples to apples.
It's like watching coaching searches of smaller league coaches and going by their NCAA totals more than regular season totals even though getting to the NCAA's is way more difficult for those leagues than Power 5/Big East teams.
Gonzaga isn't joining the Big East.
One of the things Travis Ford did when getting hired at SLU is hire Corey Tate. Corey was a local player, played and coached at Mizzou. He is heavily connected to the local basketball scene. They have the support of local NBA players such as Bradley Beal, Jayson Tatum etc...and others. They know SLU would get more of the elite local players similar to themselves. EJ Liddell would have considered it more for example to follow in the footsteps of his cousin Tommie, former SLU player. As it is, they have six local players on their roster, 3 of whom start and are some of the better players in the A-10. They also have one coming in next year, they were in the final two for Jordan Nesbitt, etc...they would have more chances tor the likes of Caleb Love and Tarris Reed Jr. etc...
St. John's is getting a little bit of publicity for being more competitive relatively quickly under Mike Anderson. The subject of some of that discussion is Van Macon. Macon of course was an assistant for Ford at SLU who recruited some of those good players both at SLU and St. John's.
So, I'm sure there will be a variety of responses, many negative one liners, etc...because it isn't Gonzaga. But we shouldn't be all that surprised. We all want a league of Jay Wright, Mark Few, etc...we all want capacity crowds, Saturday night home games again, competing at the highest levels. I remember when Mark Few made the NCAA Tourney 2nd weekend those times with double digit seeds, and didn't with better seeds. I also remember when some weren't always all that interested in them. But advancing to a Final Four in his 18th year, and results since has changed some opinions there. (He would have done just fine in Big East before ever making a Final Four at Gonzaga)
But as mentioned above, MUBB could have gone down a different path. One could say well they didn't. Another could then say teams elevate in better leagues. Isn't that how it works? Head Coaches come from non Power 5/Big East Leagues into those leagues and elevate their programs and hopefully have success. The same can be said for teams too.
Quote from: lawdog77 on March 15, 2021, 08:20:30 AM
They would bring a quality pizza.
Delete your account.
Less money for the rest of the schools.
Maybe a few Majerus stories. Otherwise, nothing that I can think of.
Quote from: Wojo time to Gojo on March 15, 2021, 07:54:20 AM
These egotistical views don't work anymore as we have turned into SLU. I would be fine with adding them if it doesn't take money away from MU.
If MU is now SLU then it should join the A-10. It is MU's fault it's program has slipped, but if it wants to right the ship, MU's ceiling is much higher then the A-10.
Quote from: marquette20 on March 15, 2021, 07:48:52 AM
11 is the perfect number for a round robin 20 game conference schedule. Wouldn't be shocked to see the Big 12 add an 11th team like a Wichita State or a BYU for basketball soon.
Only reason to add SLU is the the market. St. Louis is a new city to add to the territory but that means nothing since Big East does not have it's own network like some of the other conferences.
I see what you did there.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 15, 2021, 09:52:54 AM
The question is how would SLU be in the Big East today.
No it isn't. This is the question that was asked by the OP:
Quote from: Warrior of Law on March 15, 2021, 04:28:13 AM
The question would be whether they would add anything to the Fox contract as UCONN likely did.
And the answer to that is no. You can make an argument that if you replaced one of the current members with SLU that it would be worth it but that is not an option. SLU does not bring enough to the table to justify slicing the pie another way, I'd argue most schools, including P6 schools, don't.
Of course they could compete in the Big East. They have all the tools to do so. But that's not what matters.
I seem to recall a discussion before the season, is there another school if they went Independent in football like UConn, would the Big East want?
Obviously P5 universities are not dropping football, so outside that.
Quote from: dgies9156 on March 15, 2021, 08:04:44 AM
DePaul likely would block Loyola of Chicago's entry into the Big East.
SLU, forget it. Market isn't significant enough and team isn't good enough. However, if they did join, could see the Big East breaking into divisions as follows:
MU
Creighton
DePaul
Xavier
SLU
Butler
UConn
Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
St. John's
Seton Hall
Would have really nice balance.
This would be disgusting for the existing Big East schools that get stuck in that midwest division.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 15, 2021, 10:36:04 AM
No it isn't. This is the question that was asked by the OP:
And the answer to that is no. You can make an argument that if you replaced one of the current members with SLU that it would be worth it but that is not an option. SLU does not bring enough to the table to justify slicing the pie another way, I'd argue most schools, including P6 schools, don't.
Of course they could compete in the Big East. They have all the tools to do so. But that's not what matters.
If Gonzaga were located in Denver, it would be a no brainer.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 15, 2021, 10:36:04 AM
No it isn't. This is the question that was asked by the OP:
And the answer to that is no. You can make an argument that if you replaced one of the current members with SLU that it would be worth it but that is not an option. SLU does not bring enough to the table to justify slicing the pie another way, I'd argue most schools, including P6 schools, don't.
Of course they could compete in the Big East. They have all the tools to do so. But that's not what matters.
My post my question. One of multiple questions answered in my post.
A competitive SLU would add a top 20 national market, and all that goes with that. It's up to the Big East if that matters to them. A finished National Product comes after joining the league, not before.
Many of the replies in the thread have been predictably short term memory, comparing apples to oranges etc...
Quote from: dgies9156 on March 15, 2021, 08:04:44 AM
DePaul likely would block Loyola of Chicago's entry into the Big East.
SLU, forget it. Market isn't significant enough and team isn't good enough. However, if they did join, could see the Big East breaking into divisions as follows:
MU
Creighton
DePaul
Xavier
SLU
Butler
UConn
Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
St. John's
Seton Hall
Would have really nice balance.
Big East-East and Big East-West.
Big East-original and Big East-from lesser conferences.
No thanks
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 15, 2021, 07:58:46 AM
We were in the same conference (Great Midwest and Conference USA) as SLU between 1991 and 2004.
IMO the reason Creighton got the BE bid over SLU was due to Creighton really emerging as a basketball program and due to SLU's leadership issues at the exact wrong time.
But no, SLU does nothing for the BE to warrant splitting the pie another way. I agree that Gonzaga is the only program presently that would.
i remember Larry Hughes. Seems like he went off on MU a couple times, but just don't recall many great games vs them over that span. I wonder what SLU's hoops budget is? What holds them back from being better year-in year-out?
Quote from: dgies9156 on March 15, 2021, 08:04:44 AM
DePaul likely would block Loyola of Chicago's entry into the Big East.
SLU, forget it. Market isn't significant enough and team isn't good enough. However, if they did join, could see the Big East breaking into divisions as follows:
MU
Creighton
DePaul
Xavier
SLU
Butler
UConn
Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
St. John's
Seton Hall
Would have really nice balance.
Have been to all gyms mentioned but Providence
Quote from: Tums Festival on March 15, 2021, 05:22:09 AM
The only addition that would benefit the Big East is Gonzaga, and has been discussed ad nauseam is logistically a near impossibility.
Notre Dame definitely would benefit the Big East. But they ain't walkin' through that door, either.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on March 15, 2021, 08:49:51 AM
Awful. Looks like B1G football with a clear upper and lower division. Guess which one Marquette is in.
Yep. Would be awful to have divisions. I want MU to play each east coast team twice.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 15, 2021, 10:48:06 AM
My post my question. One of multiple questions answered in my post.
A competitive SLU would add a top 20 national market, and all that goes with that. It's up to the Big East if that matters to them.
And it's only going to matter to them if a media partner is going to increase the per school payout for adding that market. And my guess is that it won't.
My guess is that this made sense in the case of the UConn add, not only because it's UConn, but because they increased the number of conference games by over 20% (90 to 110) with the commitment to a full round robin. If they add another school it is doubtful that they would go to 22 conference games, so any further addition only increases the game inventory by about 9% (110 to 120).
Quote from: shoothoops on March 15, 2021, 10:48:06 AM
My post my question. One of multiple questions answered in my post.
Okay. But it wasn't the question posed in this thread.
SLU absolutely could be competitive if they were in the Big East.
SLU also doesn't bring enough value to justify slicing the pie an additional way.
Both of these things are true. But the first one is only relevant if the second one isn't true. And the second one isn't an insult to SLU, its a statement that applies to the vast majority of college basketball programs.
I'm in the minority but I would not be opposed to the add.
Easy road trip distance both ways and St Louis is not a bad city to spend a weekend in. Might increase MU home attendance with SLU fans coming up and my guess is they have to be a lot better than the Creighton fans.
Natural rivalry for MKE residents as St Louis always brings negative connotations with Cardinals and Bud.
St Louis does not have a pro team so increasing the quality of the Bball played there may bring in more casual fans which might allow SLU to "buy in" to BEast.
Agree it is better for SLU than MU but overall not terrible.
I still think if the Big East wanted regional balance, the team to add is Dayton.
Dayton would join in a flash. No TV market, I agree. Xavier likely would object. But Dayton has a basketball heritage and would have quickly reestablished rivalries for several teams, including us.
Nah the team to add is Detroit. TV market plus we could have Dick Vitale call every marquette Detroit game!
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 15, 2021, 11:15:24 AM
Okay. But it wasn't the question posed in this thread.
SLU absolutely could be competitive if they were in the Big East.
SLU also doesn't bring enough value to justify slicing the pie an additional way.
Both of these things are true. But the first one is only relevant if the second one isn't true. And the second one isn't an insult to SLU, its a statement that applies to the vast majority of college basketball programs.
You mentioned Gonzaga for example. It took Mark Few 18 years to make a Final Four. That's a lot of years of often being a double digit NCAA seed pulling off the Sweet 16 upset. What happens when he leaves? How is that Gonzaga spot looking after that?
Someone else also mentioned Creighton. Creighton had made 2 of the previous 6 NCAA's prior to joining the Big East. While not as big of brand as Gonzaga, they have elevated themselves on and off of the court since joining the league. The league would perhaps be even worse on the floor had they not joined. Regular Season League Title, and 6 of 8 top 3 league finishes. They are a much bigger brand in the Big East than prior, and, they are having more success in the league than prior to joining the league. That's how it often works.
I don't think you are seeing the forest for the trees.
Years 18 to 22 of Mark Few aren't walking through the door.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 15, 2021, 11:32:10 AM
You mentioned Gonzaga for example. It took Mark Few 18 years to make a Final Four. That's a lot of years of often being a double digit NCAA seed pulling off the Sweet 16 upset. What happens when he leaves? How is that Gonzaga spot looking after that?
Someone else also mentioned Creighton. Creighton had made 2 of the previous 6 NCAA's prior to joining the Big East. While not as big of brand as Gonzaga, they have elevated themselves on and off of the court since joining the league. The league would perhaps be even worse on the floor had they not joined. Regular Season League Title, and 6 of 8 top 3 league finishes. They are a much bigger brand in the Big East than prior, and, they are having more success in the league than prior to joining the league. That's how it often works.
I don't think you are seeing the forest for the trees.
Years 18 to 22 of Mark Few aren't walking through the door.
Just want to point out the 2009 Creighton team was victim to being in a mid major conference. They were tournament caliber for sure. But the general point holds true.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 15, 2021, 07:58:46 AM
We were in the same conference (Great Midwest and Conference USA) as SLU between 1991 and 2004.
IMO the reason Creighton got the BE bid over SLU was due to Creighton really emerging as a basketball program and due to SLU's leadership issues at the exact wrong time.
But no, SLU does nothing for the BE to warrant splitting the pie another way. I agree that Gonzaga is the only program presently that would.
It was more than that.
First, SLU reneged on an agreement to join the MVC after CUSA imploded and they weren't invited along to the Big East. They blamed Marquette for that. Then, the then SLU President, Father Biondi not only rejected the MVC invite in person but nuked every bridge in the room by insulting the membership and conference. This particularly pissed off Creighton.
Now, a few years later, it's Creighton or SLU for the final BE spot. Creighton still holds a grudge and Creighton's president has close ties to MU's leaders so MU makes a push to bring Creighton instead. Besides, nobody wants anything to do with Biondi. Even fellow Priests dislike him. Game over for SLU.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 15, 2021, 11:36:47 AM
Just want to point out the 2009 Creighton team was victim to being in a mid major conference. They were tournament caliber for sure. But the general point holds true.
And that would illustrate one of the points I made. So many people want to compare Power 5/Big East teams and leagues with teams from other leagues, when it is apples to oranges. It's a lot tougher to generate that revenue, have those resources, even schedule those games, let alone actually talk NCAA's.
Marquette elevated itself on and off the court after joining the Big East. It's as if Deane, KO, Dukiet, Majerus periods never happened. Marquette was not a finished product, and it didn't have the same past National profile when it entered the Big East. it did with older folk playing Glory Days in the wink of young girl's eye.
Thr dismissiveness while not surprising, is short sighted in a lot of ways.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 15, 2021, 11:32:10 AM
You mentioned Gonzaga for example. It took Mark Few 18 years to make a Final Four. That's a lot of years of often being a double digit NCAA seed pulling off the Sweet 16 upset. What happens when he leaves? How is that Gonzaga spot looking after that?
Someone else also mentioned Creighton. Creighton had made 2 of the previous 6 NCAA's prior to joining the Big East. While not as big of brand as Gonzaga, they have elevated themselves on and off of the court since joining the league. The league would perhaps be even worse on the floor had they not joined. Regular Season League Title, and 6 of 8 top 3 league finishes. They are a much bigger brand in the Big East than prior, and, they are having more success in the league than prior to joining the league. That's how it often works.
I don't think you are seeing the forest for the trees.
Years 18 to 22 of Mark Few aren't walking through the door.
Gonzaga has developed a national following that brings value. SLU has not. Maybe that will fall off when Few leaves but just as you pointed out that being in the Big East would help SLU, it would also help Few's successor. Guaranteed value now and possible value later is better than less value now and possible value later.
Creighton is already in the Big East. SLU is not. Creighton already has a slice of the pie. Adding SLU takes away from everyone else's pie. If you want to argue that it should have been SLU instead of Creighton back in 2014, you can make that argument....but we don't have a time machine so there's nothing that can be done. We could theoretically add a 12th team, which is what this thread is about.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 15, 2021, 10:41:17 AM
If Gonzaga were located in Denver, it would be a no brainer.
Denver is already in the Big East (for lacrosse)
If UD were ever to put together a solid basketball program with sustained success, they'd at least be on the radar, because of the existing connection. But that's 20 or more years down the road.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on March 15, 2021, 11:49:42 AM
Denver is already in the Big East (for lacrosse)
If UD were ever to put together a solid basketball program with sustained success, they'd at least be on the radar, because of the existing connection. But that's 20 or more years down the road.
They have national championships in lacrosse & hockey, so they obviously know how to ramp their programs up to be successful.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 15, 2021, 11:40:45 AM
It was more than that.
First, SLU reneged on an agreement to join the MVC after CUSA imploded and they weren't invited along to the Big East. They blamed Marquette for that. Then, the then SLU President, Father Biondi not only rejected the MVC invite in person but nuked every bridge in the room by insulting the membership and conference. This particularly pissed off Creighton.
Now, a few years later, it's Creighton or SLU for the final BE spot. Creighton still holds a grudge and Creighton's president has close ties to MU's leaders so MU makes a push to bring Creighton instead. Besides, nobody wants anything to do with Biondi. Even fellow Priests dislike him. Game over for SLU.
That is hilarious. I kind of wonder if those midwestern schools could have formed a more basketball centric conference when the BE expanded back then. (St. Louis, Creighton, Dayton, Xavier, Butler, Drake, Wichita, Loyola, etc.) Because it seems to me that the A10 just has a lot of junky programs that don't do much for the conference.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 15, 2021, 11:49:21 AM
Gonzaga has developed a national following that brings value. SLU has not. Maybe that will fall off when Few leaves but just as you pointed out that being in the Big East would help SLU, it would also help Few's successor. Guaranteed value now and possible value later is better than less value now and possible value later.
Creighton is already in the Big East. SLU is not. Creighton already has a slice of the pie. Adding SLU takes away from everyone else's pie. If you want to argue that it should have been SLU instead of Creighton back in 2014, you can make that argument....but we don't have a time machine so there's nothing that can be done. We could theoretically add a 12th team, which is what this thread is about.
I'm aware what the thread is about. We have different approaches here, and that's okay. We don't agree here.
Gonzaga isn't walking through the door. (Insert your own Rick Majerus Cindy Crawford joke here.) And again, as I said, it's up to the Big East if they want an elevated SLU with a bigger following and top 20 market and all that goes with that.
Gonzaga started its ascent under Dan Fitzgerald in 1993, gradually became the best program in the WCC. Dan Monson took over in 1998 and the Zags won the WCC. The following season, the Zags did so well -- WCC title, advanced to Elite 8, lost nailbiter to eventual champion UConn -- that Monson got a big contract to leave for Minnesota.
So it's not like Mark Few invented basketball at Gonzaga. He certainly has perfected it, though, and it no doubt would be a blow to the program if and when he leaves.
But where is he going? He's only 58, he loves it there, he wins big there, he is compensated well (especially for the cost of living in Spokane). It's his own fiefdom. He could be there a dozen years or more.
And just as he took over for Monson, maybe he'll be grooming somebody to take over for him when the time is right.
Basing any kind of conference-affiliation decision on who the current coach is silly.
That said, Gonzaga ain't joining the Big East.
Besides, why does the Big East need to add a 12th team at all?
Quote from: shoothoops on March 15, 2021, 11:57:55 AM
I'm aware what the thread is about and what I believe is your short sightedness on the topic, thanks.
Gonzaga isn't walking through the door. (Insert your own Rick Majerus Cindy Crawford joke here.) And again, as I said, it's up to the Big East if they want an elevated SLU with a bigger following and top 20 market and all that goes with that.
St Louis is outside the top 20 Media markets. Not by much, they're 23 for accuracy sake.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 15, 2021, 11:55:27 AM
That is hilarious. I kind of wonder if those midwestern schools could have formed a more basketball centric conference when the BE expanded back then. (St. Louis, Creighton, Dayton, Xavier, Butler, Drake, Wichita, Loyola, etc.) Because it seems to me that the A10 just has a lot of junky programs that don't do much for the conference.
It's also unsurprisingly a bit loose with the facts.
I don't think I want to add any team to the big east. With 20 conference games there is still enough room for a significant none conference schedule and a balanced conference schedule. I like playing everybody home and away. The big east is a 4 or 5 bid conference already, adding teams to the bottom just dilutes the brand. No conference has as much talent density as the big east,hy mess with a good thing?
Quote from: SaveOD238 on March 15, 2021, 11:49:42 AM
Denver is already in the Big East (for lacrosse)
If UD were ever to put together a solid basketball program with sustained success, they'd at least be on the radar, because of the existing connection. But that's 20 or more years down the road.
outside of hockey and LAX, DU doesn't put a lot of money into their programs. They're looking to hire a new hoops coach for less than $200K.
It makes no sense for the BE to add anyone else.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on March 15, 2021, 10:39:22 AM
This would be disgusting for the existing Big East schools that get stuck in that midwest division.
Haven't you noticed?
It is already the reality.
Not only the teams, but the way the gamescare officiated.
The way the coaches recruit is totally different.
St. Johns, Georgetown and even Iona did instant reload recruiting.
No "program", no historied bull, no learning some complicated system.
Pitino went to Africa and voila, they can play.
I don't hear low post, high post, zone, 2-3, 3-2, etc. , they use athleticism and agression.
In short they recruit basketball players and not "student" athletes.
.
Quote from: Badgerhater on March 15, 2021, 10:52:09 AM
Big East-East and Big East-West.
Big East-original and Big East-from lesser conferences.
Leaders and Legends.
Quote from: MarquetteMike1977 on March 15, 2021, 08:30:40 AM
My Father in law played basketball for SLUH for Hank Raymond's and was offered a college scholarship by Hank Raymonds. My Wife's Uncle was President of SLU High for many years. The college seems to have been generating many high end donors lately from my distant observations. But I do not know if they would be a good addition.
My Wife's Uncle said he converted Peter Coors to Catholic at Regis and that Norm George Wendt from Cheers was one of his biggest donors at Rockhurst. He also had many Donors at SLUH but can not remember their names and they seem to be growing rapidly at SLU college recently.
Gonzaga and Cincinnati are the only two from a competition standpoint that make sense. And there is absolutely no way in hell Xavier lets Cinci into the conference.
I would guess that SLU is in the Big East by 2030 (along with Dayton and any number of programs that inevitably drop FBS football, i.e. Vanderbilt).
SLU often gets referred to as a "little brother" around here, and many ask what value would a school like SLU bring to the Big East. In reality, there are many values, long-term, that the Big East finds value in (just like how they were nearly added in 2013). Firstly, SLU is a Jesuit institution, which would get strong support from Creighton, Marquette, Xavier and Georgetown alone; it being a Catholic school gets nine schools in support of by default. Schools always want to be associated with similar peers for academic associations. Secondly, its athletic program matches up favorably with BE athletic departments; it does not have FBS football (all but UConn, which is an exception), it is basketball-first, it has a 10k arena and has demonstrated that it can have strong fan support against high-quality teams and/or when the team is competitive. Had Rick Majerus not passed away, SLU would be in the Big East today, no question.
Additionally, the round robin gets tossed around a lot. There is a long-winded summary that I prefer not to summarize (as others do it much better than I do), but the round robin, over the long-run, hurts - not helps - teams with tournament bids and seedings. The cannibalization of a league is great television, but not necessarily for tournament bids/seeds, which is what the priority should be. The round robin can easily be eliminated for the right candidate (whether or not it can be SLU is debatable). In addition, the Big East should focus on expanding in order to create more games/sessions for the BET. More opportunities for attendance, sell-outs and matchups at MSG for the BET is invaluable in itself. Eliminating the round robin allows for conferences to "remove" a home/home from a projected top team and bottom team, to maximize NET and SOS rankings in conference, which is what other larger leagues already utilize. Finally, adding peer programs adds content, and adding content means more $$$ from Fox for our next TV deal. UConn should have already boosted our TV deal (a new deal has not yet been announced, but rumors are that we are seeing a bump).
Basketball aside, for argument's sake SLU is #12, the Big East for Olympic sports creates unbelievably nice travel partners/pairings for other sports: SLU/Creighton, DePaul/Marquette, Butler/Xavier, Providence/UConn, St. John's/Seton Hall and Villanova/Georgetown. This helps when programs are on the road and they can get two road games on a trip, instead of potentially just one. This works better for a sport like soccer or volleyball, not necessarily basketball - which has TV ramifications. What it can also do is potentially add more games to the Gavitt Games,
Reacquiring UConn added to the top of the league, no doubt. If/when the Big East adds more (I do no think they will remain at 11 entering the next decade), it will add value to the middle, which will help offset any year that a team goes through a major rebuild (like us in 2014-15, or St. John's a few years ago, DePaul every year, etc.).
FWIW, I have heard Dayton has hurdles towards getting an invite because Xavier would block them. Not sure how strong a pull Xavier has, but Xavier and UD do compete for many of the same students, not to mention their proximity to one another. Like SLU, I see Dayton as a basketball-first program that gets 13k for every home game and is capable of making the tournament every year. The more basketball-first peers the Big East can acquire (assuming they commit to the same financial spending that BE programs do, which I believe is accurate), the better.
If the Big East decided they absolutely needed to add a member, then sure, SLU should be on the list. I don't think that's the case at all though. After the new Big East formed, UConn and Notre Dame seemed like the only teams that would be worth expanding for.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on March 15, 2021, 04:07:17 PM
More opportunities for attendance, sell-outs and matchups at MSG for the BET is invaluable in itself. Eliminating the round robin allows for conferences to "remove" a home/home from a projected top team and bottom team, to maximize NET and SOS rankings in conference, which is what other larger leagues already utilize. Finally, adding peer programs adds content, and adding content means more $$$ from Fox for our next TV deal. UConn should have already boosted our TV deal (a new deal has not yet been announced, but rumors are that we are seeing a bump).
I agree with many of your other comments, but I'm not so sure about this one.
While adding a team
very likely would increase revenues, it
definitely would divide the pot by another full share. So the question really becomes whether the bump would be sufficient to justify cutting each piece a bit smaller. Essentially, you'd need to show that the pie would grow by at least 9% (1/11th), or the existing schools would actually be harmed financially.
IMO, it was so clear that SLU would bring in the sufficient $$$, they'd already be here.
Unless a new school brings in more resources than it would cost to split the pie another way, the BE isn't going to be interested in expansion.
The BE contract with Fox is up after the 2024-25 season. My guess is that they will have all sorts of dialogue with Fox, ESPN, etc. about dollars, payouts, etc. and any value to be gained through expansion.
I would be very surprised if they conclude expansion is a good idea at that time. Frankly I think the BE might be in for a cut. We will see.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 15, 2021, 04:23:12 PM
I agree with many of your other comments, but I'm not so sure about this one.
While adding a team very likely would increase revenues, it definitely would divide the pot by another full share. So the question really becomes whether the bump would be sufficient to justify cutting each piece a bit smaller. Essentially, you'd need to show that the pie would grow by at least 9% (1/11th), or the existing schools would actually be harmed financially.
IMO, it was so clear that SLU would bring in the sufficient $$$, they'd already be here.
The current Fox contract calls for any addition up to 12 a full member share, so it doesn't add or take away from the payouts.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 15, 2021, 04:25:29 PM
Unless a new school brings in more resources than it would cost to split the pie another way, the BE isn't going to be interested in expansion.
The BE contract with Fox is up after the 2024-25 season. My guess is that they will have all sorts of dialogue with Fox, ESPN, etc. about dollars, payouts, etc. and any value to be gained through expansion.
I would be very surprised if they conclude expansion is a good idea at that time. Frankly I think the BE might be in for a cut. We will see.
The only way the Big East gets a cut in pay is 1) Fox doesn't have the money to pay market value for BE content and 2) no competitor has a desire to bid for said BE content.
Frankly, I think we will get a raise because it is widely known that ESPN has seller's remorse. I think we will see them make an effort to get our rights back, which, IMO, would hate to see. Fox has treated us very well and would not want to be second fiddle to the ACC again (or be relegated to ESPN+).
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on March 15, 2021, 05:28:54 PM
The current Fox contract calls for any addition up to 12 a full member share, so it doesn't add or take away from the payouts.
Yes, but as Fluffy mentioned, the contract only has 4 more years, so they could still end up being a long-term negative if the numbers don't independently support their addition.
Quote from: Marq3332 on March 15, 2021, 06:37:32 AM
I don't recall that many great games vs SLU. A few in the '80's maybe? When the revamped BE took off, i did think SLU, based on market, made more sense than Creighton. But, CU has been a very good program. If there's sincere interest in a Midwest add, probably Loyola more-so than SLU considering Loyola's recent FF and Chicago market.
They were the only team to hold Wade under 10 points and they did it twice.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 15, 2021, 05:43:55 PM
Yes, but as Fluffy mentioned, the contract only has 4 more years, so they could still end up being a long-term negative if the numbers don't independently support their addition.
Considering the Big East is one of the best content ratings suppliers for FS1, I'm really not worried.
St. Louis? No. Adds nothing in terms of viewers for Fox.
The 12th team is.... Notre Dame (there, I said it...) :P
Quote from: bilsu on March 15, 2021, 06:16:07 PM
They were the only team to hold Wade under 10 points and they did it twice.
And lost both games.
Quote from: bilsu on March 15, 2021, 06:16:07 PM
They were the only team to hold Wade under 10 points and they did it twice.
Josh Fisher.
Quote from: Marq3332 on March 15, 2021, 10:52:58 AM
i remember Larry Hughes. Seems like he went off on MU a couple times, but just don't recall many great games vs them over that span. I wonder what SLU's hoops budget is? What holds them back from being better year-in year-out?
Hughes put up 40 on Mike Bargen at the BC.
SLU defeated Marquette 13 times in the 1990's. (Rich Grawer and Charlie Spoonhour)
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on March 15, 2021, 04:07:17 PM
I would guess that SLU is in the Big East by 2030 (along with Dayton and any number of programs that inevitably drop FBS football, i.e. Vanderbilt)
The only way Vanderbilt leaves the SEC is if Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Auburn and Tennessee force them out. There is too much money to leave voluntarily.
Plus, Vanderbilts basketball has been historically passable and it's baseball is a premier program. No way Vandy leaves.
Quote from: dgies9156 on March 15, 2021, 09:49:13 PM
The only way Vanderbilt leaves the SEC is if Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Auburn and Tennessee force them out. There is too much money to leave voluntarily.
Plus, Vanderbilts basketball has been historically passable and it's baseball is a premier program. No way Vandy leaves.
Nope, Vandy isn't leaving the SEC, And, they aren't dropping football.
Big money there. Each school pay out was $45.5 Million last year. Vandy is also adding several hundred million dollars in athletic infrastructure improvements, much of iit in football.
Clark Lea has put together a good staff, and, it's his long term dream job to win there. He needs to keep up with the many current highly ranked sports programs programs there.
Quote from: willie warrior on March 15, 2021, 05:05:47 AM
Why not. With Mzu and DePaul in BEast, another mid major like SLU would complement them.
Marquette is not far from being a slu. Give it a few more seasons like this year and we will be right there with depaul loyola and slu. Perhaps they can just create a fully catholic conference.
Quote from: DFW HOYA on March 15, 2021, 07:48:04 PM
St. Louis? No. Adds nothing in terms of viewers for Fox.
The 12th team is.... Notre Dame (there, I said it...) :P
I think we all would like this.
Is there any realistic chance ND would even remotely consider this?
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on March 16, 2021, 09:23:16 AM
I think we all would like this.
Is there any realistic chance ND would even remotely consider this?
ACC Commissioner Jim Phillips, who has worked at Notre Dame, and, has two kids attending there now, said this week the only league Notre Dame is ever joining is the ACC.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 16, 2021, 09:36:40 AM
ACC Commissioner Jim Phillips, who has worked at Notre Dame, and, has two kids attending there now, said this week the only league Notre Dame is ever joining is the ACC.
What I figured.
Quote from: Mike Deane's Seat Belt on March 15, 2021, 10:22:12 PM
Marquette is not far from being a slu.
Not a chance after we dump Wojo and hire Pitino.
Wouldn't that give us 4 Jesuit and 10 Catholic schools?
Quote from: harryp on March 16, 2021, 02:09:28 PM
Wouldn't that give us 4 Jesuit and 10 Catholic schools?
MU, CU, Gtown, X, SLU
Villanova - Augustinian
STJ and DePaul - Vincentian
Providence - Dominican
Seton Hall - Catholic (no specific order. Founded by the Diocese of Newark)
Butler -
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 16, 2021, 02:32:35 PM
MU, CU, Gtown, X, SLU
Villanova - Augustinian
STJ and DePaul - Vincentian
Providence - Dominican
Seton Hall - Catholic (no specific order. Founded by the Diocese of Newark)
Butler - Jeevesian
Quote from: dgies9156 on March 15, 2021, 08:04:44 AM
DePaul likely would block Loyola of Chicago's entry into the Big East.
SLU, forget it. Market isn't significant enough and team isn't good enough. However, if they did join, could see the Big East breaking into divisions as follows:
MU
Creighton
DePaul
Xavier
SLU
Butler
UConn
Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
St. John's
Seton Hall
Would have really nice balance.
Ugh.
Big East - Original Members
Big East - The Kids' Table
No thanks.
I think SLU would be a great addition to the Big east. was not aware this was a possibility...A similar sized school Jesuit school as MU. Saint Louis is a fun city with the arch, the hill, and as a Creighton fan who grew up going to "Arch Madness" at the Scott trade center i would like to get back to the LOU for a road game here and there. Plus the team has had some good success over the years and would be a welcome addition. I think the student body is similar to Marquette.
We are aware that college basketball conferences do not do divisions anymore, correct? That is a football thing, not Olympic sports.
SLU or no SLU, we aren't going to an East/West, Legends/Leaders or Old/New setup now or ever.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on March 18, 2021, 12:11:16 PM
We are aware that college basketball conferences do not do divisions anymore, correct? That is a football thing, not Olympic sports.
SLU or no SLU, we aren't going to an East/West, Legends/Leaders or Old/New setup now or ever.
A few mid and low major conferences do divisions.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 16, 2021, 09:36:40 AM
ACC Commissioner Jim Phillips, who has worked at Notre Dame, and, has two kids attending there now, said this week the only league Notre Dame is ever joining is the ACC.
Screw ND
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 18, 2021, 12:15:24 PM
A few mid and low major conferences do divisions.
Noted. Then power, major, high-major conferences, of which the Big East is clearly associated as one those, do not utilize divisions.
Small conferences, based on financial constraints or geographic hurdles, out of necessity, do so.
Fair?
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on March 18, 2021, 12:29:31 PM
Noted. Then power, major, high-major conferences, of which the Big East is clearly associated as one those, do not utilize divisions.
Small conferences, based on financial constraints or geographic hurdles, out of necessity, do so.
Fair?
Wasn't a criticism. Just adding information.
Quote from: JimsTimeOutFan on March 18, 2021, 12:01:51 PM
I think SLU would be a great addition to the Big east. was not aware this was a possibility...A similar sized school Jesuit school as MU. Saint Louis is a fun city with the arch, the hill, and as a Creighton fan who grew up going to "Arch Madness" at the Scott trade center i would like to get back to the LOU for a road game here and there. Plus the team has had some good success over the years and would be a welcome addition. I think the student body is similar to Marquette.
It isn't a possibility and would be a bad idea.