He has.a number of very positive attributes but isn't a premium athlete. He needs to become far more polished to make it to the NBA. Yesterday he (and Wojo) had absolutely no answers dealing with the length of SH. Once he missed a few threes he became tentative and ineffective. If you were coaching DG what would you be working on (excluding the 3 pt shot) to move him towards becoming a viable NBA player?
Hate to say it, but watching UVA vs Florida St., Sam's game has improved 100% since he left here. And yes, I realize he has years of experience over Garcia. Woj fooked up the entire Hauser fiasco, major, hey?
Quote from: MuggsyB on February 15, 2021, 07:07:47 PM
He has.a number of very positive attributes but isn't a premium athlete. He needs to become far more polished to make it to the NBA. Yesterday he (and Wojo) had absolutely no answers dealing with the length of SH. Once he missed a few threes he became tentative and ineffective. If you were coaching DG what would you be working on (excluding the 3 pt shot) to move him towards becoming a viable NBA player?
He is not an elite athlete, but he is athletic enough.
1. add strength
2. work on low post moves. If Theo can add a jump hook, so can Garcia. A 6'-10' turnaround jumper would add greatly to his game, as well.
He has a solid 3 point shot. He needs to add variety with his inside game.
Weight room. An off-season with actual conditioning and quickness work. Skilled. Needs to be stronger and move better.
Yeah, that year off to get over the hip surgery helped Sam.
Still an adequate at best defender.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 15, 2021, 07:13:51 PM
Hate to say it, but watching UVA vs Florida St., Sam's game has improved 100% since he left here. And yes, I realize he has years of experience over Garcia. Woj fooked up the entire Hauser fiasco, major, hey?
He has his lowest offensive rating of his college career at Virginia, albeit still quite good. The only thing he's significantly better at is committing less fouls. He's also 23, much older than a lot of his competition
Yeah I've watched Sam play a number of times and don't notice much improvement.
I am a believer in improving strengths first and then weaknesses. To me Garcia is not a good low post player, but they keep force feeding him in the low post. Work on developing quickness, strength and play him where he will perform the best which to me is high post, and wing. Let him shoot the 3 and mid range, he is a decent passer and good at taking his guy off the dribble from the wing.
I think he needs to slow down and focus on the post game. Clearly strength would help the young man. Can he add a fadeaway in the mid-post?
Quote from: Jockey on February 15, 2021, 07:16:57 PM
He is not an elite athlete, but he is athletic enough.
1. add strength
2. work on low post moves. If Theo can add a jump hook, so can Garcia. A 6'-10' turnaround jumper would add greatly to his game, as well.
He has a solid 3 point shot. He needs to add variety with his inside game.
This. Strength and better moves inside.
6 points 32 minutes into a butt kicking by a long, athletic team.
Quote from: MuggsyB on February 15, 2021, 07:07:47 PM
He has.a number of very positive attributes but isn't a premium athlete. He needs to become far more polished to make it to the NBA. Yesterday he (and Wojo) had absolutely no answers dealing with the length of SH. Once he missed a few threes he became tentative and ineffective. If you were coaching DG what would you be working on (excluding the 3 pt shot) to move him towards becoming a viable NBA player?
Pray that it's not Richard Pitino doing the "coaching".
Garcia gets off the floor slowly and has limited elevation. He needs to be a body position player which requires savvy and takes longer to develop.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 15, 2021, 07:13:51 PM
Hate to say it, but watching UVA vs Florida St., Sam's game has improved 100% since he left here. And yes, I realize he has years of experience over Garcia. Woj fooked up the entire Hauser fiasco, major, hey?
He's the exact same player. Spot up shooter and good rebounder in his area. Bad individual defender.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on February 15, 2021, 07:38:58 PM
He's the exact same player. Spot up shooter and good rebounder in his area. Bad individual defender.
Virginia's scheme hides his individual flaws as a defender but that's a definite credit to their staff for putting him in a better position something that would not have happened here
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 15, 2021, 07:40:28 PM
Virginia's scheme hides his individual flaws as a defender but that's a definite credit to their staff for putting him in a better position something that would not have happened here
True.
Could be Player of the Year in the ACC, though, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 15, 2021, 07:13:51 PM
Hate to say it, but watching UVA vs Florida St., Sam's game has improved 100% since he left here. And yes, I realize he has years of experience over Garcia. Woj fooked up the entire Hauser fiasco, major, hey?
???
Did you watch todays game?? Sam is scoring in garbage time but hes getting absolutely flummoxed by a team with FSU length and athleticism. They are picking on him on D(like Gonzaga did with Kispert and Timme) and Sam had like 2 shot attempts til the game was 25 pts out of reach.
Sam is a good player, he always has been. But hes basically the same player and this game definitely didnt showcase him.
Garcia has Tom Copa Syndrome.
DG is 6'11" and I have yet to see him dunk the ball. If he can turn those layups (oft blocked) into dunks or attempted dunks he will draw fouls and help his cause.
I think he will be gone so after MU, I'm not as interested.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 15, 2021, 07:42:50 PM
Could be Player of the Year in the ACC, though, hey?
He's not even the Player of the Year on his own team
Feels like they need to do more for him in the high post. It seems like he can get to the basket from there or shoot a jumper.
Quote from: MuggsyB on February 15, 2021, 07:31:56 PM
I think he needs to slow down and focus on the post game. Clearly strength would help the young man. Can he add a fadeaway in the mid-post?
Why would you focus on post if it is not his strength? Would you have Theo practice as a point guard. There are plenty of 6 10 or 6 11 guys in the nba that aren't post players. Size shouldn't necessarily dictate where and how someone plays.
Quote from: hairy worthen on February 15, 2021, 07:49:27 PM
Why would you focus on post if it is not his strength? Would you have Theo practice as a point guard. There are plenty of 6 10 or 6 11 guys in the nba that aren't post players. Size shouldn't necessarily dictate where and how someone plays.
Bingo. A good coach won't shoehorn him into a position or role because of "size" but instead utilize his skills that he possesses while trying to improve his overall game
Quote from: Gato78 on February 15, 2021, 07:38:22 PM
Garcia gets off the floor slowly and has limited elevation. He needs to be a body position player which requires savvy and takes longer to develop.
Yes. But Dirk wasn't exactly Dominique Wilkins. He has to polish his game Gato and figure out where to score and how to use his body.
Quote from: hairy worthen on February 15, 2021, 07:49:27 PM
Why would you focus on post if it is not his strength? Would you have Theo practice as a point guard. There are plenty of 6 10 or 6 11 guys in the nba that aren't post players. Size shouldn't necessarily dictate where and how someone plays.
Okay, but he's 6'10. Who would be the model for him if he expects to play at the NBA level?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 15, 2021, 07:30:47 PM
Yeah I've watched Sam play a number of times and don't notice much improvement.
He showed me tonight that he is not an elite athlete, no different what I saw at MU. Stats are about the same. Joey really has not shown much improvement at MSU. If anything Wojo probably should have backed off Joey, same player, both play below the rim. Sam should have stayed
Quote from: MuggsyB on February 15, 2021, 07:58:20 PM
Okay, but he's 6'10. Who would be the model for him if he expects to play at the NBA level?
Right now, name any 6'11, not super strong, not super quick, reasonably skilled player you want.
Not as quick or as good a ballhandler as Henry. Not as good a shooter as the Hausers. I love the kid, think he has a nice future. But he needs an off-season of work before he can sniff the league.
When Garcia gets anywhere near the basket, he often slams on the brakes and then telegraphs his shot. Stop hesitating and keep the defender guessing!
Garcia.
Several things mentioned already. (Needs strength, lateral quickness)
He needs to hold the ball higher when he shoots as well as after he takes it to the basket and rebounds.
He has to use his body better when positioned in the high post. And he needs to use his body better when trying to score inside. Starting to low and almost falling. Ball fakes, kickouts, re-entry with more pace.
Many of his 3's are front rim, short, legs.
He at times needs to adjust to the pace of the game. Needs to develop a mid range game and can eventually extend to 3 point line.
He is a good recruit, getting good experience, and he has the potential to make a lot of progress in a short amount of time with proper development.
He isn't a one and done five star type of player, and, he doesn't have to be. I believe some expectations were too high and unreasonable. Not a great supporting cast, especially in the backcourt didn't help.
Quote from: MuggsyB on February 15, 2021, 07:58:20 PM
Okay, but he's 6'10. Who would be the model for him if he expects to play at the NBA level?
Easiest Marquette player comparison Henry Ellenson. I dont follow nba closely but Michael porter maybe, kevin Durant, Simmons. Now dont get me wrong he is nowhere near any of those, but to me those are his strengths as opposed to a pounder rebounder down low.
Quote from: tower912 on February 15, 2021, 08:05:48 PM
Right now, name any 6'11, not super strong, not super quick, reasonably skilled player you want.
Not as quick or as good a ballhandler as Henry. Not as good a shooter as the Hausers. I love the kid, think he has a nice future. But he needs an off-season of work before he can sniff the league.
I think Ellenson was stronger and the Hausers were better shooters. Not sure about handles. It's the quickness that I'm wondering about. How can you coach quicks?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 15, 2021, 07:52:41 PM
Bingo. A good coach won't shoehorn him into a position or role because of "size" but instead utilize his skills that he possesses while trying to improve his overall game
Hopefully, we will get one. With good coaching, he can be an NBA player. But he is nowhere near that point yet.
The skills package is there, though, waiting to be developed.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 15, 2021, 07:13:51 PM
Hate to say it, but watching UVA vs Florida St., Sam's game has improved 100% since he left here. And yes, I realize he has years of experience over Garcia. Woj fooked up the entire Hauser fiasco, major, hey?
That's what you came away from his 3-7 shooting, 5 rebounds, 0 assists, 2 turnovers performance thinking?
With the exception of high level athleticism, Garcia has all the makings of a very good to great stretch 4. The problem is:
a) the system
b) playing him out of position - in the post - just because he's big
How to fix:
1. Ball movement (passing) mixed with some curl screens and some baseline cuts to get him open for catch and shoot 3's... where everyone knows he's going to shoot but the action gives him enough space to do it confidently. Some of the plays that MU used to run for Markus would work. He should get 5-6 of these looks per game.
2. Pick and roll. How many times in the Wojo era has there been a pass to the roll man on the pick and roll? Few to none. The roll man is not finding open space, and usually if it's not Theo on the roll, Theo is blocking the space the roll man needs to have an open path to the basket. Remove Theo, 5 out, pick and roll with Garcia as the roll man and get him several easy layups/dunks. Another 5-6 of these per game.
3. Offensive boards. Change the game strategy and have Garcia stay in to get O-boards. He's a good rebounder with nice touch around the basket. Can't do this for the whole game, but for any 1 or 2 segment of about 2-4 minutes it would get him a couple outback opportunities.
4. Against the zone - put him at the free throw line and let him work from there. Sometimes just taking that jumper is the best option when there's no-one around.
If Garcia played for Creighton or Nova he'd get tons of these looks because of their system and their ball movement. Even Seton Hall - which runs basically the same offense as MU (but runs it better) hit the roll man 3 or 4 times in the recent game.
Bottom line is he needs and deserves a lot more touches, but better ones than he can get in the shambles Wojo calls an offense.
Pick and pop/roll, free throw jumpers, weights. Then maybe I might have him channel his inner Marcus Jackson point-forward skills.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 15, 2021, 07:42:50 PM
Could be Player of the Year in the ACC, though, hey?
Valentine's Day is already past, but I guess that didn't curb your bromance. Sam sends his love back!
Despite all that lovin' ... Sam is only slightly more likely to win ACC player of the year than Wojo is to win Big East coach of the year. Sam wasn't even on The Athletic's midseason all-ACC team.
Sam is the exact same player he was at Marquette. That's not an insult at all. He was a good player for us, and it was great to have him on our team.
Unfortunately, he let his little brother - who as it turns out is not very good - talk him into participating in a mutiny.
will be interesting to see how differently Richard Pitino or Archie Miller use him
I like Garcia and think him and Carton are by far our best players, and it's not close. However, when he went for that layup against Obiagu early in the game, I knew he was gonna get stuffed, and he did. And then it happened again. Every player he'd face at the next level will be better than Obiagu. Whatever else he needs to work on, he'll have to hit the weights and get stronger.
Garcia actually does have a nice little jump hook and he hit it several times early in the season. Have not seen in for a couple months now. I wonder why.
When he has the size advantage, he can be very effective inside. He killed Nova, especially Swider. When the other team has a bigger and/or more athletic big, such as Obiagu, Garcia needs to be able to step outside and hit shots ... at least until he gets stronger and has more moves around the hoop.
We think of Garcia as being pretty skilled and Theo as being the opposite, but it was Theo who used a bunch of moves to get Obiagu in foul trouble (and, eventually, out of the game).
But no ... I doubt Garcia ran into too many players like Obiagu when he was at Prior Lake.
In practice, I'd stick two defenders on him, tell them "no blood no foul" and make Garcia go over and over until he doesn't mind getting hit anymore.
Garcia is a finesse player, which is fine, but he shrinks from contact. He could be unstoppable from the high post if he learned to play through contact on cuts
I think a decent comp, especially when he bulks up a bit, is Sabonis from the Pacers. Good inside game and rebounding, but can step outside and shoot it. Maybe Gallinari, though he floats outside more than Garcia.
As for comps to MPJ, Durant, or Simmons, LOLZ. If you don't watch the NBA, that's cool, but then don't make silly comps. All of those guys are very quick and bouncy, guard speed and handles in a 6'10 frame. Garcia isn't a plodding oaf, certainly more athletic than Hank, but he's not going to be sprinting past SFs to explode for monster highlight dunks either.
IMO - best thing for Dawson is to be surrounded by more offensive threats, especially explosive guys & good ball handlers. I don't think the team as structured really complements him all that well because the ball-handling is pretty rough & Dawson has to be more inventive than he ought to be (again IMHO).
As others have said, he's a finesse player; last I knew, the weight room doesn't impact the mind.
Same people said Jamal "just needs to get in the weight room", Greg etc. They did, but it's kind of besides the point. Koby surely gets in the weight room & it doesn't seem to impact his mindset much.
Dawson's defensive upside is average at best, which should be fine. He could be an excellent offensive weapon on the right team.
Quote from: Gato78 on February 15, 2021, 07:38:22 PM
Garcia gets off the floor slowly and has limited elevation. He needs to be a body position player which requires savvy and takes longer to develop.
Agree. I would coach to be a better offensive rebounder. He can't rebound when he's standing 30' away watching teammates miss threes. This is a big flaw of Wojo's offense, too often there is no one underneath.
Quote from: JWags85 on February 16, 2021, 12:00:42 AM
I think a decent comp, especially when he bulks up a bit, is Sabonis from the Pacers. Good inside game and rebounding, but can step outside and shoot it. Maybe Gallinari, though he floats outside more than Garcia.
...
How about Toni Kukoc? Not that Gracia is currently the player Kukoc was, but I could see Garcia turning into a player like him.
Quote from: mug644 on February 16, 2021, 05:48:05 AM
How about Toni Kukoc? Not that Gracia is currently the player Kukoc was, but I could see Garcia turning into a player like him.
Well, he's tall, lean and a lefty. So there's that. Otherwise, not so much.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 16, 2021, 06:19:47 AM
Well, he tall, lean and a lefty. So there's that. Otherwise, not so much.
Dawson Garcia is Dawson Garcia. He's a kid oozing potential. Doubtful this staff taps it fully. Would happily be wrong.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 16, 2021, 07:09:18 AM
Dawson Garcia is Dawson Garcia. He's a kid oozing potential. Doubtful this staff taps it fully. Would happily be wrong.
Agree on all counts.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 16, 2021, 07:09:18 AM
Dawson Garcia is Dawson Garcia. He%u2019s a kid oozing potential. Doubtful this staff taps it fully. Would happily be wrong.
Yes. That's why I posed the question Uncle R. Both he and Lewis are outstanding pieces....hopefully we find the right group to lead them and maximize their abilities. Or maybe you should write Wojo a letter?
Quote from: MuggsyB on February 16, 2021, 07:32:44 AM
Yes. That's why I posed the question Uncle R. Both he and Lewis are outstanding pieces....hopefully we find the right group to lead them and maximize their abilities. Or maybe you should write Wojo a letter?
I don't think letters work 😉
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on February 16, 2021, 05:45:03 AM
Agree. I would coach to be a better offensive rebounder. He can't rebound when he's standing 30' away watching teammates miss threes. This is a big flaw of Wojo's offense, too often there is no one underneath.
Dude, Dawson Garcia is the second best offensive rebounder in the big east. This is a crazy take.
He needs to be transformed from a soft 220lbs. to a physical 240lbs.
Quote from: bilsu on February 16, 2021, 10:36:07 AM
He needs to be transformed from a soft 220lbs. to a physical 240lbs.
He's listed at 235
Maybe it's just because he's a big lefty who can shoot but I can't help but think of Raef Lafrentz sometimes when I watch him.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on February 16, 2021, 05:45:03 AM
Agree. I would coach to be a better offensive rebounder. He can't rebound when he's standing 30' away watching teammates miss threes. This is a big flaw of Wojo's offense, too often there is no one underneath.
Yeah.......not the issue
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 16, 2021, 07:48:51 AM
I don't think letters work 😉
That's not necessarily true Uncle R! H and H don't have that Joycean umph in their prose. Break out the fountain pen and get to work. :)
Over on the scout page, Pudner has an article up that says Garcia is the 14th best value add freshman in D1.
Dawson Garcia is the least of our concerns.
He's a freshman who is learning on the fly about Big East hoops, so he has some outstanding games and some duds. When he goes up against a team without a lot of big bodies, such as Nova, he can go inside effectively. He is not yet ready to contend with shot-blockers, but with a full offseason I'll bet he figures out a few things next season.
I just hope he does so in a Marquette uniform.
I'm starting to wonder if Garcia can dunk. I'd love to see it, then a thunderous roar. But he'd probably get blocked by a 6'2" guard
Quote from: AZMarqfan on February 19, 2021, 09:52:44 PM
I'm starting to wonder if Garcia can dunk. I'd love to see it, then a thunderous roar. But he'd probably get blocked by a 6'2" guard
His hops are a bit pedestrian, I'll give you that. He needs to get in the weight room and work on more effective pivot moves as well as get stronger and increase his elevation.
Quote from: MU82 on February 15, 2021, 09:59:42 PM
Valentine's Day is already past, but I guess that didn't curb your bromance. Sam sends his love back!
Despite all that lovin' ... Sam is only slightly more likely to win ACC player of the year than Wojo is to win Big East coach of the year. Sam wasn't even on The Athletic's midseason all-ACC team.
Sam is the exact same player he was at Marquette. That's not an insult at all. He was a good player for us, and it was great to have him on our team.
Unfortunately, he let his little brother - who as it turns out is not very good - talk him into participating in a mutiny.
thx...but the thread is about Garcia, not the malcontent.
Quote from: Marq3332 on February 20, 2021, 06:17:05 AM
thx...but the thread is about Garcia, not the malcontent.
You quoted a post from five days ago to say that?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 20, 2021, 06:18:25 AM
You quoted a post from five days ago to say that?
Not to mention the fact that I'm not even the one who brought up the former Marquette player but was just addressing the incorrect statement of that former Marquette player's No. 1 Scoop cheerleader.
1. Weight room
2. Weight room
3. Weight room
4. Work on perfecting the baby hook that Theo has going on.
5. Weight room
Once he gets stronger, he will be unstoppable. He leaves 8-10 points a game on the floor because he can't finish strong. Easily another 2-3 wins this year if he was stronger.
I know the mid range game is going extinct in basketball but I think he needs more opportunities there. Screen and roll, pick and pop situations.
He is a good shooter and he will begin making these with more attempts, which will then open up his other offensive attributes with head fakes and drive bys.
One of the things that drives me crazy with him this season is that he seems to never dribble when he gets the ball at the top of the key or anywhere on the outside. By all accounts he's a good ball handler and should be able to take bigger guys off the dribble to create offense rather than just standing and waiting for a guard to pass to.
In the preseason scrimmage videos we would see several pick and pop open 3 situations for both Dawson and Justin where they would get an open look from 3 and drain it. I was pumped about seeing that all season long but it's gone basically extinct (the Markus over the head pass off the dribble to Sam for three play)
Maybe they were getting the looks because the defense was bad in the scrimmages, but he needs more of those types of plays to open up his offensive repertoire
Quote from: DoctorV on February 21, 2021, 10:53:35 AM
I know the mid range game is going extinct in basketball but I think he needs more opportunities there. Screen and roll, pick and pop situations.
He is a good shooter and he will begin making these with more attempts, which will then open up his other offensive attributes with head fakes and drive bys.
One of the things that drives me crazy with him this season is that he seems to never dribble when he gets the ball at the top of the key or anywhere on the outside. By all accounts he's a good ball handler and should be able to take bigger guys off the dribble to create offense rather than just standing and waiting for a guard to pass to.
In the preseason scrimmage videos we would see several pick and pop open 3 situations for both Dawson and Justin where they would get an open look from 3 and drain it. I was pumped about seeing that all season long but it's gone basically extinct (the Markus over the head pass off the dribble to Sam for three play)
Maybe they were getting the looks because the defense was bad in the scrimmages, but he needs more of those types of plays to open up his offensive repertoire
Can we not get DG the rock in the wide-post where he can face and then attack?He needs to be more patient off the bounce, work on his post game, and get stronger imo. His moves are not particularly fluid DoctorV.
When he is patient and backs down his defender, he gets blocked by the help defender.
Stronger. Quicker.
One of the best informed discussions around here in a long time.
Too bad we have not had the luxury of playing him as a forward.
Go overseas and get a tall brute of a center and coach Garcia as a forward.
Quote from: vogue65 on February 21, 2021, 02:13:42 PM
One of the best informed discussions around here in a long time.
Too bad we have not had the luxury of playing him as a forward.
Go overseas and get a tall brute of a center and coach Garcia as a forward.
Interesting point. I have always advocated for an international scout. Look at Gonzaga?