Lost somewhat in our discussion over that ass whooping last night is that this roster has monumental issues when it comes to rudimentary passing and handling the rock. It is at an abysmal level and is the primary reason we can't get clean looks in our h-c offense. Some of these guys have played college hoops for 3+ seasons. The lack of improvement in these areas is staggering. End of rant.
So along with the matador, unconscionable, piss poor, defense we have a tremendous amount of work to do with regards to finding the right players moving forward. Whether it's skill development or atrocious scouting I really don't know, but to get back to relevancy this must be changed.
In my opinion the passing and ball-handling exhibited from this current roster, with 6 guards or more mind you, is as bad as I have seen in high D-1 basketball. No doubt the shooting isn't a thing of beauty either but it begins with ball movt and breaking down the defense. It's sad because Carton has outstanding quicks and zoomability but the basic dribbling and passing on this team defies human comprehension and must be addressed.
I've never seen a sloppier ball handling team at Marquette. Weak passes. Poor judgement. Weak dribbling. It makes you wonder if they practice. Where's the coaching? I remember so many good coaches in high school and college (Bobby Knight) that yanked players making turn overs. We need better coaching. Why are we paying this coach so much when he's not very good?
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on February 11, 2021, 05:44:44 PM
I've never seen a sloppier ball handling team at Marquette. Weak passes. Poor judgement. Weak dribbling. It makes you wonder if they practice. Where's the coaching? I remember so many good coaches in high school and college (Bobby Knight) that yanked players making turn overs. We need better coaching. Why are we paying this coach so much when he's not very good?
Wojo was a pretty damn good guard. He knows how to handle the ball. Pretty confident he can teach those skills. How about this, the ball handlers on this team are just not BE ready. The talent level on this team is not as good as many opine they are.
Quote from: 79Warrior on February 11, 2021, 05:55:13 PM
Wojo was a pretty damn good guard. He knows how to handle the ball. Pretty confident he can teach those skills. How about this, the ball handlers on this team are just not BE ready. The talent level on this team is not as good as many opine they are.
Just because Wojo could handle the ball 20 years ago doesn't mean he can teach it effectively now.
Quote from: 79Warrior on February 11, 2021, 05:55:13 PM
Wojo was a pretty damn good guard. He knows how to handle the ball. Pretty confident he can teach those skills. How about this, the ball handlers on this team are just not BE ready. The talent level on this team is not as good as many opine they are.
You may very well be right. However, Wojo is responsible for acquiring the talent and putting together our entire roster. The poor ball fundamentals from players that have been in the program for over 3 yrs is what troubles me. I do think development plays a role here.
Quote from: skianth16 on February 11, 2021, 06:17:58 PM
Just because Wojo could handle the ball 20 years ago doesn't mean he can teach it effectively now.
I an not a fan of Wojo, but that is ridiculous.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on February 11, 2021, 05:44:44 PM
I remember so many good coaches in high school and college (Bobby Knight) that yanked players making turn overs.
We'd end up with only two guys on the court.
I was a point guard in high school, as a sophomore on B team, I was having a bad first half, the coach at half time read me the riot act, he stated if I turn the ball over one more time I will be sitting next to him the rest of the year. Second half, not one turnover. I am not saying you can do that now, but letting his 2 guards have at least 15 turnovers the last 2 games, has to do something. Carton is so lackadaisical with the ball it is ridiculous, and Koby has shown no improvement in 2 years of knowing what to do once he gets in the lane, awful
Quote from: 79Warrior on February 11, 2021, 06:38:10 PM
I an not a fan of Wojo, but that is ridiculous.
Being good at something doesn't make you a good teacher. That challenge is not specific to Wojo. It's a general thing.
Quote from: skianth16 on February 11, 2021, 06:17:58 PM
Just because Wojo could handle the ball 20 years ago doesn't mean he can teach it effectively now.
I think you're forgetting about his role as starting point guard in the noon ball games.
I think they're over coached and play tight rather than loose, as it sometimes appears. They are all high caliber basketball places who can dribble and pass just fine. But when every move is coached and the coaching is basic, the players are in bad spots as we are easy to defend. Let them push the ball, run, move on offense, play loose, have fun. My guess is they lose by less than 30.
Quote from: 79Warrior on February 11, 2021, 05:55:13 PM
Wojo was a pretty damn good guard. He knows how to handle the ball. Pretty confident he can teach those skills. How about this, the ball handlers on this team are just not BE ready. The talent level on this team is not as good as many opine they are.
Darn good job. You praise Wojo and trash Wojo in just a few short sentences.
Quote from: skianth16 on February 11, 2021, 06:17:58 PM
Just because Wojo could handle the ball 20 years ago doesn't mean he can teach it effectively now.
if you can't handle the ball, how the hell are you a D-1 recruit? For that matter naia? I often wonder what a coach sees in a kid when recruiting. MU has 3 high level D-1 guys. The rest are Horizon League caliber. The BE needs MU, St Johns, Gtown to join Nova to be good. All are historic programs. Considering the Chicago market, DeP too. Instead, all are junk, afterthoughts in their respective markets. StJ showing life, but not really a threat to go far. It comes down to competent coaching and talented players. That which MU does not have.
There really is little excuse to either recruit players who can't dribble or not develop them so they can dribble once they are recruited. It has been a problem for many years now. Do drill to learn how to dribble in traffic, make crisp passes etc. This is why we lose.
The first few games this year the passing and ball movement was excellent. Yes against cupcakes but we have abandoned that. Don't get it. Fix these issues and we win most of the games we lost.
And we need Lewis back.
If you look at the RSCI's of the players we have, I suspect we're in the top 5 of the BE.
Yet, even with these guys we have to have threads like this.
Could it just be the luck of the draw, that other schools just get lucky, or we are unlucky because our prospects don't pan out?
That might be the answer for a season, or two, but we're seven years into this.
Our players, despite their rankings, don't appear to have mastered basic skills.
Our players, despite their rankings, don't demonstrate solid hoop fundamentals.
Our players, despite their rankings, don't seem to improve/develop.
All of these are in contradistinction to players that go elsewhere.
The problem is that fundamentals are not stressed. The problem is that the "system" doesn't
change to match the skills of our recruits. The problem is that they are poorly-coached and their
progression as basketball players is stunted.
Results:
- problems with player retention
- problems with player morale
- problems with an inability to win basketball games
Recruits (or their advisors) must already be taking note of these things. We are sowing the seeds
of continued mediocrity.
Certainly there is at this point enough data to be able to make a solidly based conclusion:
He needs to go, and the sooner, the better.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on February 11, 2021, 06:50:40 PM
I think they're over coached and play tight rather than loose, as it sometimes appears. They are all high caliber basketball places who can dribble and pass just fine. But when every move is coached and the coaching is basic, the players are in bad spots as we are easy to defend. Let them push the ball, run, move on offense, play loose, have fun. My guess is they lose by less than 30.
Push the ball? The only thing worse than the team's ball handling is the team's ability to finish in transition. A 2 on 1 fast break has like a 10% chance to result in a made bucket.
Quote from: Boozemon Barro on February 12, 2021, 06:42:12 PM
Push the ball? The only thing worse than the team's ball handling is the team's ability to finish in transition. A 2 on 1 fast break has like a 10% chance to result in a made bucket.
Agreed. Frustrating.
Quote from: Boozemon Barro on February 12, 2021, 06:42:12 PM
Push the ball? The only thing worse than the team's ball handling is the team's ability to finish in transition. A 2 on 1 fast break has like a 10% chance to result in a made bucket.
Pushing the ball is one part of an idea to be less stagnant. If we push there might be less dribbling and ponding the ball into the floor on the perimeter. I would rather have a turnover at the rim being aggressive than at the top of the key on a high ball screen. Rather have Koby blow a layup than his regular "jump stop" slide travel in the lane. I would rather Theo trail the play for a tip dunk than be a black hole in the post. For me it's all about movement, we have none, we are easy to guard, we give up easy turnovers in the wrong spots that lead to easy baskets on the other end. Having all players like pass and dribble in games makes them better passers and dribblers. Might be frustrating in the short term but will improve over time. We see a coach who has had one guy do the passing and dribbling for so many years, perhaps that's a reason why we are lackluster at the fundamentals.
No one in this league has pace like DJ, let him run.
And yet, when MU generates a turnover and has a player dribbling in the open court, it seems to usually be Cain. Which leads to a collective intake of breath and a nearly universal "Give it to a guard" or "For God's sake, stop dribbling", or simply "Oh, no."
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on February 13, 2021, 09:57:30 AM
No one in this league has pace like DJ, let him run.
What a waste of a really high level talent that Wojo is clueless how to bring all that ability out.
And yet when Wojo had a first team all American, the complaints were he didn't do enough to rein Markus in.
Be consistent.
Some of the turns seem to happen because of horrible spacing and no plan B in our offense. When teams deny passing lanes we don't seem to have a counter. The turns up top, with a feed to Theo mostly, are totally inexcusable. We need more player movement in our sets.
Then we have the dribbling turns which happen every game and are arguably more egregious:
There's the yo-yo, superfluous handling by Carton.
The 88% of the time hard dribble right by McEwen which eventually leads to travels in the paint or blocks at the rim.
And yes, Cain and Elliot literally dribbling.
You add the issues our bigs have with quick smalls and hard doubles and you have a full blown/monumental s-show.
We need more vertical attacks but kicks when the help comes, far less hesitation, better screening, spacing, and player movement, axing of the mickey-mouse lateral handling, and valuing the rock by being much stronger with the ball.
Quote from: tower912 on February 13, 2021, 10:27:37 AM
And yet when Wojo had a first team all American, the complaints were he didn't do enough to rein Markus in.
Be consistent.
Find where I joined the narrative he didn't rein Markus in. Because it doesn't exist.
But he didn't develop one aspect of Markus's game that wasn't already there when he stepped on campus. And he won't for DJ either. That's all I'm saying.
Now back to your Wojo slurping. You wear it very well to the humor of many here.
As opposed to years past, MU's offense is a 3 out- 2 in offense. Base offense starts with Garcia at the high post, Theo in the low block, Koby and Jamal on the wings. Unless you are having Jamal and Koby running cross cuts down low off of Theo's screens, there is no place for movement. A variation would be to start both Theo and Garcia down low and have the wings pop off downscreens. But with the lack of quickness from Garcia and Theo, as well as the lack of the perimeter threat that is Theo, in this offense, with this personnel, there is very little chance for the kind of movement you are looking for, Muggsy. Once that high screen is set, generally by Garcia, the play is set.
You want a more free flowing, 5-out motion offense like Villanova or Creighton run. Need the pieces for that.
Tower your are absolutely correct.
However, let's ask another fundamental question: What is the character/identity of this team? Of any Wojo team? I cannot figure it out, because it does not appear to this long time fan, that there is an identity.
Is this lack of identify a factor of the players Wojo recruits? Is it a factor of histeaching ability, or lack thereof? Or, is the coach does not have a clear identity/vision of what his team should be?
I never thought Buzz was much of bench coach. However, he taught such basics as "paint touches", and other '50s and '60s fundamental concepts, etc. After drilling these basic concepts, into his players, Buzz's vision was based on his belief that basketball was a contact sport. Remember the pregame warm-ups that looked like NFL linebacker drills?
Anyway, there are numerous ways to look at the situation. However, in the end, Wojo may not have a clear idea of what he wants his teams to be, or what their identity should be.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on February 13, 2021, 10:40:49 AM
Find where I joined the narrative he didn't rein Markus in. Because it doesn't exist.
But he didn't develop one aspect of Markus's game that wasn't already there when he stepped on campus. And he won't for DJ either. That's all I'm saying.
Now back to your Wojo slurping. You wear it very well to the humor of many here.
My opinion of Wojo is the exact same as it has been since he has been hired.
I worried that he would be able to grow beyond his Duke roots, as that is all he had ever known. That was in my first post after he was hired.
I consistently say that he has never made a team more than the sum of its parts.
I consistently say that his recruiting is unbalanced.
I may have been the first to call for him to never recruit small guards again.
I start entire threads lamenting the lack of attacking wings/switchables and pointing out that hole in his recruiting.
I literally have never said I thought he was a great game coach. To the point that I need to point out when an adjustment actually works.
I thought he messed up the Hauser situation. But differently than others in that I thought, and still do, that he should have kicked them both off the team immediately, assuming the letter story is essentially true.
It is actually as entertaining for me to read the narrative that I am a huge Wojo fan. I laugh out loud at some of the stuff.
Every year, I give him somewhere between a B and a C for a grade. I think he is an average coach.
It really isn't my nature to lose my crap over anything and I support the coach at MU until he isn't. I supported Crean until he left, though I had my frustrations with him. I supported Buzz to the end though I had my disappointments with him. Right now, I hope Wojo can grow and right the ship. When he is gone, I will support the next guy.
But, please, keep entertaining me. It is why I come to scoop.
Quote from: UticaBusBarn on February 13, 2021, 10:56:49 AM
Tower your are absolutely correct.
However, let's ask another fundamental question: What is the character/identity of this team? Of any Wojo team? I cannot figure it out, because it does not appear to this long time fan, that there is an identity.
Is this lack of identify a factor of the players Wojo recruits? Is it a factor of histeaching ability, or lack thereof? Or, is the coach does not have a clear identity/vision of what his team should be?
I never thought Buzz was much of bench coach. However, he taught such basics as "paint touches", and other '50s and '60s fundamental concepts, etc. After drilling these basic concepts, into his players, Buzz's vision was based on his belief that basketball was a contact sport. Remember the pregame warm-ups that looked like NFL linebacker drills?
Anyway, there are numerous ways to look at the situation. However, in the end, Wojo may not have a clear idea of what he wants his teams to be, or what their identity should be.
He wants his team to be Duke. But he hasn't landed enough Duke level players and MU plays in a more physical conference.
Most importantly, he isn't Coach K either, hey?
Nope.
Quote from: tower912 on February 13, 2021, 11:09:24 AM
He wants his team to be Duke. But he hasn't landed enough Duke level players and MU plays in a more physical conference.
I don't think the majority here on Scoop understand just how true this is.
Matt Patricia is to Bill Belichick as Wojo is to Coach K.
(Sorry, Tower, I couldn't help myself. My fingers just kinda took off.)
Quote from: Jockey on February 13, 2021, 07:28:10 PM
I don't think the majority here on Scoop understand just how true this is.
Matt Patricia is to Bill Belichick as Wojo is to Coach K.
(Sorry, Tower, I couldn't help myself. My fingers just kinda took off.)
Perfect analogy
The hoodie isn't the hoodie without Brady.
The K tree is not great. Neither is the hoodie's.
Quote from: tower912 on February 13, 2021, 07:33:21 PM
The hoodie isn't the hoodie without Brady.
The K tree is not great. Neither is the hoodie's.
True. Only difference between Charlie Weis and Wojo is 175 lbs.
I've mentioned before how Theo is almost incapable of cleanly catching passes thrown to him in the post. Numerous times I've seen passes chest high, hit him in the hands, he drops it, and then is able to grab it on the bounce. It is possible it could be his bad wrist, but whatever the case, I don't see it changing while he's at MU.