MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: AZMarqfan on February 02, 2021, 07:57:32 PM

Title: learning to win?
Post by: AZMarqfan on February 02, 2021, 07:57:32 PM
This was a tough one, but a win is a win.  The last two years the entire offense was to let Markus chuck it (in 18-19 we had Hauser's too).  But we really never saw other guys get touches and develop.  So here we are in 2021 and we really don't have many veteran guys that have learned how to win.  If we could finish at the end, we'd have 4-5 more wins.  But also, looking at our rosters, here's what we have

Given that our roster wasn't really developed in past years, and given the youth of 6 of our players and relative inexperience of 2 others, I think it would have been shocking for this team to thrive early on in BE play.  Losing Markus may have hurt, but so did losing Bailey who was really stepping up.  As frustrating as close losses have been, can we really expect to lose with that inexperience?  I like this squad.  I like their athleticism.  I like that they actually play defense some times.  It's nice seeing the ball in lots of players' hands, not just one.  I wish this team had better shooters.  But when you compare them to a senior-heavy team like Wisconsin or Missouri, those teams are more likely to thrive in late game situations.  Give us this team next year with Theo and Cain back, and perhaps they'll win more of these close games. 
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: tower912 on February 02, 2021, 08:00:22 PM
That is going to get you some serious backlash.   
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: panda on February 02, 2021, 08:01:53 PM
This was a tough one, but a win is a win.  The last two years the entire offense was to let Markus chuck it (in 18-19 we had Hauser's too).  But we really never saw other guys get touches and develop.  So here we are in 2021 and we really don't have many veteran guys that have learned how to win.  If we could finish at the end, we'd have 4-5 more wins.  But also, looking at our rosters, here's what we have
  • A PG who played most of a season last year, then needed a break (very young, gaining experience)
  • A C whose job in recent years was to set picks, rebound, and block shots.  He's showing some nice touch and improvement, but doesn't get enough touches in the post
  • A frosh PF who often plays soft (goes up weak and blocked by guys 5" shorter), but tonight played much tougher.  Often loses his man on D.
  • A senior SF with nice 3 pt touch, rebounding, and explosiveness, but is relatively young with minimal experience with the ball in his hands
  • a frosh 6th man who has nice intensity and hustle
  • a scrawny sophomore PG with nice ball skills and defense, but a poor shot.  Reminder, he should be a frosh this year.
  • a senior guard that is still young in experience due to chronic injuries (Elliott)
  • a frosh that actually saw the floor tonight
  • a redshirt sophomore who we've seen on the floor lately, but hasn't done much with the ball yet as he's getting comfortable
  • a 5th year senior SG that can play well in stretches and play good D, but also makes some boneheaded mistakes and lazy passes

Given that our roster wasn't really developed in past years, and given the youth of 6 of our players and relative inexperience of 2 others, I think it would have been shocking for this team to thrive early on in BE play.  Losing Markus may have hurt, but so did losing Bailey who was really stepping up.  As frustrating as close losses have been, can we really expect to lose with that inexperience?  I like this squad.  I like their athleticism.  I like that they actually play defense some times.  It's nice seeing the ball in lots of players' hands, not just one.  I wish this team had better shooters.  But when you compare them to a senior-heavy team like Wisconsin or Missouri, those teams are more likely to thrive in late game situations.  Give us this team next year with Theo and Cain back, and perhaps they'll win more of these close games.

Maybe we’ll go 10-8 in conference next year. Fingers crossed!
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: PointWarrior on February 02, 2021, 08:22:43 PM
10–8 next year means Wojo likely wins the BE Mediocrities Trophy outright next year.
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on February 02, 2021, 08:30:23 PM
Did we not learn our lesson with “we have a pretty good team and coach”?

Better yet, did we not learn our lesson at any point during the last 7 years?

A 10 page word salad trying to convince yourself (or anyone else) that a Wojo team will ever be anything more than the embodiment of mediocrity is a giant waste of your breath.

Our efforts would be better focused at criticizing this oaf and the oafs that keep him employed.
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: Viper on February 02, 2021, 08:37:19 PM
This was a tough one, but a win is a win.  The last two years the entire offense was to let Markus chuck it (in 18-19 we had Hauser's too).  But we really never saw other guys get touches and develop.  So here we are in 2021 and we really don't have many veteran guys that have learned how to win.  If we could finish at the end, we'd have 4-5 more wins.  But also, looking at our rosters, here's what we have
  • A PG who played most of a season last year, then needed a break (very young, gaining experience)
  • A C whose job in recent years was to set picks, rebound, and block shots.  He's showing some nice touch and improvement, but doesn't get enough touches in the post
  • A frosh PF who often plays soft (goes up weak and blocked by guys 5" shorter), but tonight played much tougher.  Often loses his man on D.
  • A senior SF with nice 3 pt touch, rebounding, and explosiveness, but is relatively young with minimal experience with the ball in his hands
  • a frosh 6th man who has nice intensity and hustle
  • a scrawny sophomore PG with nice ball skills and defense, but a poor shot.  Reminder, he should be a frosh this year.
  • a senior guard that is still young in experience due to chronic injuries (Elliott)
  • a frosh that actually saw the floor tonight
  • a redshirt sophomore who we've seen on the floor lately, but hasn't done much with the ball yet as he's getting comfortable
  • a 5th year senior SG that can play well in stretches and play good D, but also makes some boneheaded mistakes and lazy passes

Given that our roster wasn't really developed in past years, and given the youth of 6 of our players and relative inexperience of 2 others, I think it would have been shocking for this team to thrive early on in BE play.  Losing Markus may have hurt, but so did losing Bailey who was really stepping up.  As frustrating as close losses have been, can we really expect to lose with that inexperience?  I like this squad.  I like their athleticism.  I like that they actually play defense some times.  It's nice seeing the ball in lots of players' hands, not just one.  I wish this team had better shooters.  But when you compare them to a senior-heavy team like Wisconsin or Missouri, those teams are more likely to thrive in late game situations.  Give us this team next year with Theo and Cain back, and perhaps they'll win more of these close games.
to quote  John McEnroe...you can’t be serious?
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: brewcity77 on February 02, 2021, 09:29:36 PM
So this year sucks, but we still have next year, right? That should keep our optimism up until November.
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: MU82 on February 02, 2021, 10:12:20 PM
I love the attempt at optimism but ...

It's Year 7. We're 9-9. We lost b-t-b home games to St. John's and DePaul.

Please.
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: Galway Eagle on February 02, 2021, 10:30:31 PM
I love the attempt at optimism but ...

It's Year 7. We're 9-9. We lost b-t-b home games to St. John's and DePaul.

Please.

I'm certainly upset but to be fair in an ordinary year we'd be what like 14 or 15 and 9? That does sound a lot better looking at these last games.
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: MUHoopsFan2 on February 03, 2021, 12:20:28 AM
I'm certainly upset but to be fair in an ordinary year we'd be what like 14 or 15 and 9? That does sound a lot better looking at these last games.
More complaints....smh.

Judge this year differently...especially home games with a young teams with no fans or family! You all need to calm down with your demands man. lol

it's unreal... more than just wins and losses. They play well and play hard and play to win. if they did not then you can cry. I don't see it.

Fire this one and have this transfer, bench this guy....heck no. any team around .500 by 1 or 2 games has had a great year.
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: willie warrior on February 03, 2021, 05:37:10 AM
This was a tough one, but a win is a win.  The last two years the entire offense was to let Markus chuck it (in 18-19 we had Hauser's too).  But we really never saw other guys get touches and develop.  So here we are in 2021 and we really don't have many veteran guys that have learned how to win.  If we could finish at the end, we'd have 4-5 more wins.  But also, looking at our rosters, here's what we have
  • A PG who played most of a season last year, then needed a break (very young, gaining experience)
  • A C whose job in recent years was to set picks, rebound, and block shots.  He's showing some nice touch and improvement, but doesn't get enough touches in the post
  • A frosh PF who often plays soft (goes up weak and blocked by guys 5" shorter), but tonight played much tougher.  Often loses his man on D.
  • A senior SF with nice 3 pt touch, rebounding, and explosiveness, but is relatively young with minimal experience with the ball in his hands
  • a frosh 6th man who has nice intensity and hustle
  • a scrawny sophomore PG with nice ball skills and defense, but a poor shot.  Reminder, he should be a frosh this year.
  • a senior guard that is still young in experience due to chronic injuries (Elliott)
  • a frosh that actually saw the floor tonight
  • a redshirt sophomore who we've seen on the floor lately, but hasn't done much with the ball yet as he's getting comfortable
  • a 5th year senior SG that can play well in stretches and play good D, but also makes some boneheaded mistakes and lazy passes

Given that our roster wasn't really developed in past years, and given the youth of 6 of our players and relative inexperience of 2 others, I think it would have been shocking for this team to thrive early on in BE play.  Losing Markus may have hurt, but so did losing Bailey who was really stepping up.  As frustrating as close losses have been, can we really expect to lose with that inexperience?  I like this squad.  I like their athleticism.  I like that they actually play defense some times.  It's nice seeing the ball in lots of players' hands, not just one.  I wish this team had better shooters.  But when you compare them to a senior-heavy team like Wisconsin or Missouri, those teams are more likely to thrive in late game situations.  Give us this team next year with Theo and Cain back, and perhaps they'll win more of these close games.
Sold. Extend Wojo-Dukiet for 21 years
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: avid1010 on February 03, 2021, 06:22:08 AM
I'm certainly upset but to be fair in an ordinary year we'd be what like 14 or 15 and 9? That does sound a lot better looking at these last games.
In a normal year we wouldn't be sniffing the NCAA tourney...yet again.

I'm not sure why COVID and a "normal" year comes in to the discussions.  Everyone knows it's not a normal year.  Everyone also recognizes the majority of BEAST teams are doing better than MU in an apples to apples comparison.  I'd be much more likely to give Wojo a pass if we had serious injuries to deal with, etc. 

Many of us "NoJos" posted very realistic expectations for MU 2-4 years ago...they aren't being met.  There isn't anything wrong with believing the coach should go if those expectations can't be met. 
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: tower912 on February 03, 2021, 06:34:02 AM
Thank you, AZ and 2, for daring to go against the current zeitgeist.
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: hairy worthen on February 03, 2021, 07:15:07 AM
More complaints....smh.

Judge this year differently...especially home games with a young teams with no fans or family! You all need to calm down with your demands man. lol

it's unreal... more than just wins and losses. They play well and play hard and play to win. if they did not then you can cry. I don't see it.

Fire this one and have this transfer, bench this guy....heck no. any team around .500 by 1 or 2 games has had a great year.

Wait, so the covid situation only affects Marquette?  OHHH that’s it, no wonder why the team sucks. Even still, how can you be a fan of any team and be happy with a close to .500 record?  Well never mind, there are Lions fans I guess
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: bilsu on February 03, 2021, 07:51:48 AM
We do not have a player that can be counted on to make the game winning shot. The last one we had was Sam. I do not think Markus ever hit a game winner. He more often turned the ball over on the last crucial play in the game. Remember the end of the St' John's game last year, when Markus drove in for the game tying shot and had the ball knock out of his hands and it subsequently hit his knee and went out of bounds. There were probably five games last year where Markus could not make the winning play. Wojo's teams have lost a lot of close games, because he has not recruited the money time player.
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: willie warrior on February 03, 2021, 08:04:45 AM
10–8 next year means Wojo likely wins the BE Mediocrities Trophy outright next year.
Hasn't he won it every year?
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: willie warrior on February 03, 2021, 08:05:54 AM
So this year sucks, but we still have next year, right? That should keep our optimism up until November.
With Wojo-Dukiet it is always next year. Give him the extension
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: hairy worthen on February 03, 2021, 08:08:14 AM
We do not have a player that can be counted on to make the game winning shot. The last one we had was Sam. I do not think Markus ever hit a game winner. He more often turned the ball over on the last crucial play in the game. Remember the end of the St' John's game last year, when Markus drove in for the game tying shot and had the ball knock out of his hands and it subsequently hit his knee and went out of bounds. There were probably five games last year where Markus could not make the winning play. Wojo's teams have lost a lot of close games, because he has not recruited the money time player.
Howard was a money player. The problem was everyone knew he was taking the shot and everyone knew he wasn’t passing.  Again, coaching

The image that sticks in my mind is Howard trying to take the last shot while being doubled and Hauser screaming for the ball, wide open.
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: Galway Eagle on February 03, 2021, 08:16:38 AM
More complaints....smh.

Judge this year differently...especially home games with a young teams with no fans or family! You all need to calm down with your demands man. lol

it's unreal... more than just wins and losses. They play well and play hard and play to win. if they did not then you can cry. I don't see it.

Fire this one and have this transfer, bench this guy....heck no. any team around .500 by 1 or 2 games has had a great year.

Umm a red shirt senior, two seniors, and a red shirt Junior is not a young team.

They do not play well, I have 20 turnovers on a stat sheet that say they don't. I agree they play hard, albeit disorganized.

Is your point that any team around .500 in any year has had a great year or just this year? I mean either way it's a pretty ridiculous opinion. Have you ever rooted for a good marquette team?

Also how is saying we'd have a few more garbage wins in a normal year a complaint?
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: panda on February 03, 2021, 08:26:53 AM
Umm a red shirt senior, two seniors, and a red shirt Junior is not a young team.

They do not play well, I have 20 turnovers on a stat sheet that say they don't. I agree they play hard, albeit disorganized.

Is your point that any team around .500 in any year has had a great year or just this year? I mean either way it's a pretty ridiculous opinion. Have you ever rooted for a good marquette team?

Also how is saying we'd have a few more garbage wins in a normal year a complaint?

Exactly. If you think the team is inexperienced and making tons of mistakes this year, just wait until next season.
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 03, 2021, 09:26:46 AM
Age is important.

Talent is more important.

Aged talent is most important.

Our oldest players are two guys who were the 4/5 starters last season and two guys who are career bench pieces. They are old but have never been the most talented players on our team.

Our most talented players are a guy who played half a season at another school before transferring and two guys who were in high school last season. They are talented but are not old.

This is what a down year looks like. The old talented players from the last recruiting cycle graduated. Leaving behind older ancillary players and the younger talented players from the new recruiting cycle.

However, a good coach at this point should have the team making the tournament even in a down year.

Assuming Carton, Garcia, and Lewis all return (big assumption regarding Carton), I anticipate that the team will be significantly better than this season. Add an impact transfer at the 2-3 position and I think we could be really good next season.
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: Goose on February 03, 2021, 10:44:44 AM
TAMU

I agree that talent is the name of the game. Aged talent is all the better.
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: tower912 on February 03, 2021, 12:13:01 PM
Age is important.

Talent is more important.

Aged talent is most important.

Our oldest players are two guys who were the 4/5 starters last season and two guys who are career bench pieces. They are old but have never been the most talented players on our team.

Our most talented players are a guy who played half a season at another school before transferring and two guys who were in high school last season. They are talented but are not old.

This is what a down year looks like. The old talented players from the last recruiting cycle graduated. Leaving behind older ancillary players and the younger talented players from the new recruiting cycle.

However, a good coach at this point should have the team making the tournament even in a down year.

Assuming Carton, Garcia, and Lewis all return (big assumption regarding Carton), I anticipate that the team will be significantly better than this season. Add an impact transfer at the 2-3 position and I think we could be really good next season.
We agree
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: MU82 on February 03, 2021, 12:56:59 PM
Age is important.

Talent is more important.

Aged talent is most important.

Our oldest players are two guys who were the 4/5 starters last season and two guys who are career bench pieces. They are old but have never been the most talented players on our team.

Our most talented players are a guy who played half a season at another school before transferring and two guys who were in high school last season. They are talented but are not old.

This is what a down year looks like. The old talented players from the last recruiting cycle graduated. Leaving behind older ancillary players and the younger talented players from the new recruiting cycle.

However, a good coach at this point should have the team making the tournament even in a down year.

Assuming Carton, Garcia, and Lewis all return (big assumption regarding Carton), I anticipate that the team will be significantly better than this season. Add an impact transfer at the 2-3 position and I think we could be really good next season.

I agree with most of this.

The problem is that DJ very well might go ... and that Wojo won't be able to bring in a real impact transfer at the 2/3 (something he hasn't done in 7 years) ... and that Wojo would still be the coach.

But sure, if it all aligns perfectly (it never does), we could be real good next season.

Would love to see it! We Are Marquette!
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: Hards Alumni on February 03, 2021, 01:01:07 PM
We are at a point in the season where we rationalize how bad we are.  Seven seasons under the same coach, and results have not improved.  I don't want any more excuses about age/talent/injuries.  Wins are what matter, and they aren't happening.  Furthermore, there is nothing on the horizon that leads me to believe that it gets any better in the next year or two.  Cut bait, and let Steve limp back to Durham to fill in for K when his 'back hurts'.
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: MU82 on February 03, 2021, 01:08:56 PM
It was pretty easy to support Wojo the first 5 years. Aside from a very small blip in Year 4, there was steady progress.

But this will be the second straight year we have taken a pretty big step backward. When you include that, along with the body of work, it's just not good enough.
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: Galway Eagle on February 03, 2021, 01:15:25 PM
It was pretty easy to support Wojo the first 5 years. Aside from a very small blip in Year 4, there was steady progress.

But this will be the second straight year we have taken a pretty big step backward. When you include that, along with the body of work, it's just not good enough.

When I was in sales you were expected to hit 100% target, but you weren't put on PIP if you hit 70% (or 80 it's been awhile). That's how I feel about Wojo in all the years leading up to this. He's been hitting the absolute floor of expectations to not get fired or even on the hot seat while leaving a lot to be desired.
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: MU82 on February 03, 2021, 01:16:13 PM
When I was in sales you were expected to hit 100% target, but you weren't put on PIP if you hit 70% (or 80 it's been awhile). That's how I feel about Wojo in all the years leading up to this. He's been hitting the absolute floor of expectations to not get fired or even on the hot seat while leaving a lot to be desired.

Yeah ... he's a real PIP!
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: Silent Verbal on February 03, 2021, 01:42:02 PM
Age is important.

Talent is more important.

Aged talent is most important.

Our oldest players are two guys who were the 4/5 starters last season and two guys who are career bench pieces. They are old but have never been the most talented players on our team.

Our most talented players are a guy who played half a season at another school before transferring and two guys who were in high school last season. They are talented but are not old.

This is what a down year looks like. The old talented players from the last recruiting cycle graduated. Leaving behind older ancillary players and the younger talented players from the new recruiting cycle.

However, a good coach at this point should have the team making the tournament even in a down year.

Assuming Carton, Garcia, and Lewis all return (big assumption regarding Carton), I anticipate that the team will be significantly better than this season. Add an impact transfer at the 2-3 position and I think we could be really good next season.

So far this season has been a turd, and now it's being rationalized away.  Nice.

We were told to wait until years 5 and 6 of the Wojo regime, because Howard and Hauser would be seniors and we'd be really, really good.  Well, we were good for about 2/3 of year 5, and from there it was basically a dumpster fire.

If nothing else, Wojo's time at Marquette has shown that you can't rebuild in college basketball like you can in pro sports.  Developing a young core that'll be good three years from now (or even next year) is a bad strategy because too much can happen in the interim.  Guys go pro, transfer, get injured, etc.  Every year, you have to play for THAT year like it's the only year that matters.  Sometimes that'll blow up in your face (see Buzz's team in 2013-14), and sometimes it'll work out great (see Buzz in every other season he coached at Marquette).  Every year under Wojo, with the exception of years 5 and 6, we've been playing for next year.  And every year, next year hasn't been the year.
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: MarquetteDano on February 03, 2021, 02:01:05 PM
If nothing else, Wojo's time at Marquette has shown that you can't rebuild in college basketball like you can in pro sports.  Developing a young core that'll be good three years from now (or even next year) is a bad strategy because too much can happen in the interim.  Guys go pro, transfer, get injured, etc.  Every year, you have to play for THAT year like it's the only year that matters.  Sometimes that'll blow up in your face (see Buzz's team in 2013-14), and sometimes it'll work out great (see Buzz in every other season he coached at Marquette).  Every year under Wojo, with the exception of years 5 and 6, we've been playing for next year.  And every year, next year hasn't been the year.

There are coaches who build quick,  some who build long.  I think building long is doable,  even in today's game with transfers/guys going pro.

The problem is Wojo has not proven he can do either.
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: buckchuckler on February 03, 2021, 02:05:02 PM
I anticipate that the team will be significantly better than this season. Add an impact transfer at the 2-3 position and I think we could be really good next season.

This has been the story every year Wojo has been the coach.  Next year, man, look out. 
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 03, 2021, 03:16:47 PM
So far this season has been a turd, and now it's being rationalized away.  Nice.

No. I've been saying this since last season ended. You can check. And you may have missed

However, a good coach at this point should have the team making the tournament even in a down year.

And again, I'm on record multiple times of saying that I will want Wojo gone if we don't make the tournament this season. No one is rationalizing anything.

If nothing else, Wojo's time at Marquette has shown that you can't rebuild in college basketball like you can in pro sports.  Developing a young core that'll be good three years from now (or even next year) is a bad strategy because too much can happen in the interim.  Guys go pro, transfer, get injured, etc.  Every year, you have to play for THAT year like it's the only year that matters.  Sometimes that'll blow up in your face (see Buzz's team in 2013-14), and sometimes it'll work out great (see Buzz in every other season he coached at Marquette).  Every year under Wojo, with the exception of years 5 and 6, we've been playing for next year.  And every year, next year hasn't been the year.

You can dispute this all you want, but its the pattern that most programs follow. Certainly don't tell it to Buzz, he's tanked his first two seasons here at TAMU in favor of building culture and bringing in his players.

This has been the story every year Wojo has been the coach.  Next year, man, look out. 

No it hasn't. Year 3 was supposed to be better than Year 4. Year 5 and Year 6 weren't about next year they were about that year. Year 5 was good, year 6 wasn't good enough.
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: MU82 on February 03, 2021, 03:37:18 PM
You can dispute this all you want, but its the pattern that most programs follow. Certainly don't tell it to Buzz, he's tanked his first two seasons here at TAMU in favor of building culture and bringing in his players.

Scoopers who fondly remember S16-S16-E8 think Buzz has been an immediate smash at every stop.

He went 14-17 his only year at New Orleans.

He went 11-22 his first year at Va Tech and followed that with an NIT season.

He went 16-14 last year at TAMU and has done nothing of note this season -- unless one counts his team somehow managing to avoid scoring a single point in the last 8:50 of a recent loss.

Buzz was incredibly fortunate to inherit the Amigos and Lazar when he was promoted to Marquette's head coach in 2008 (against the objections of lots of Scoopers, BTW).

I am NOT trying to claim Wojo has been or ever will be as good as Buzz. He hasn't been and he won't be.

But Buzz is a perfect example of how it almost always takes a new coach - even a very good coach - 2-4 years to start building anything worthwhile.

Those who think that if Wojo gets fired our next coach will step in and immediately have a BEast contender are delusional -- unless that coach can somehow convince our good players to stay and our recruits to remain committed. That's highly unlikely. But even then, there probably would be a transition period.

Even knowing all that, I still would fire Wojo.
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: tower912 on February 03, 2021, 04:41:15 PM
There aren't a lot of Butler's, Crowder's, DJOs, or Buycks in the JUCO  pipeline.
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: Silent Verbal on February 03, 2021, 04:48:16 PM
You can dispute this all you want, but its the pattern that most programs follow. Certainly don't tell it to Buzz, he's tanked his first two seasons here at TAMU in favor of building culture and bringing in his players.

Buzz was the Associated Press SEC coach of the year last year.  The team was picked to finish 12th in the league, but ended up 10-8 in SEC play and tied for sixth in conference.  Sounds like a real tank job to me!
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: brewcity77 on February 03, 2021, 05:43:18 PM
Those who think that if Wojo gets fired our next coach will step in and immediately have a BEast contender are delusional -- unless that coach can somehow convince our good players to stay and our recruits to remain committed. That's highly unlikely. But even then, there probably would be a transition period.

I agree that most coaches likely would need 2-3 years before they started to have much success. I do think there are a few that would hit the ground running at a program like Marquette. That said, I don't expect Marquette will go after someone that can do that (even Chris Beard needed two years at Texas Tech).
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: burger on February 03, 2021, 05:59:04 PM
Softness is a problem....

Play everyone......See what you have.....

And make changes for next year......

See who really wants to be here and play hard.....
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: MU82 on February 03, 2021, 06:07:34 PM
Buzz was the Associated Press SEC coach of the year last year.  The team was picked to finish 12th in the league, but ended up 10-8 in SEC play and tied for sixth in conference.  Sounds like a real tank job to me!

"Tanked" might not have been the right word for TAMU to have used, but Texas A&M wasn't a tourney team last season, and it isn't in the brackets this season. As good a coach as Buzz is, he could not build the kind of team Marquette fans want in 2 years. He didn't do it at Va Tech either.

But he did do it in 3 years at Va Tech, and I wouldn't bet against him having a fine team next season at TAMU.

To expect somebody to do it faster at Marquette is unrealistic. That's all I'm saying, and I think TAMU is saying the same.
Title: Re: learning to win?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 03, 2021, 07:25:33 PM
Buzz was the Associated Press SEC coach of the year last year.  The team was picked to finish 12th in the league, but ended up 10-8 in SEC play and tied for sixth in conference.  Sounds like a real tank job to me!

I honestly didn't know Buzz won the AP SEC Coach of the Year. Good for him. Now here's the context for the rest of your post.

10-8 in conference....in an SEC with more teams ranked lower than 128 in KenPom (2) than teams ranked in the top 28 (0). Of the 10 conference wins, 5 came against teams ranked 96 or lower in KenPom. 7 came against teams ranked 60 or lower, 9 came against teams ranked 47 or lower.

Speaking of KenPom, Texas A&M was ranked 57th preseason in Buzz' first year. They finished the season 131st.

They finished the season 16-14, meaning that they went 6-6 in the nonconference with losses to the mighty Harvard (110 KP), Temple (115 KP), and Fairfield (303 KP). Not to mention wins over UL Monroe (252 KP)...by 6, Texas Southern (278 KP)...by 3, Troy (293 KP)...by 4, and TAMU-CC (303 KP)...by 3.

I'm sure if Wojo had turned in these results you would have been trumpeting it as a successful season.

But you helped prove my point. Buzz drove off and benched some of Kennedy's players that could have helped him win early but instead he torched the beginning of the season to help establish his players in the way that he wanted to play. By the end of the season, they were improving and won 5 of their last 7 which included their 4 best wins of the season. Buzz did the same thing at Virginia Tech and even to an extent at Marquette after the amigos graduated.