AE dug into the turnover numbers since Wojo took over. Excellent, well-researched read that begs the question of why Marquette deliberately doesn't pursue turnovers.
https://www.anonymouseagle.com/platform/amp/2020/12/28/22201704/marquette-golden-eagles-mens-basketball-turnovers-steve-wojciechowski
Great recruiter, awful X's & O's coach. Marquette hasn't won an NCAA tournament game, regular season title, BEast tournament title, in-season (Nov) Tournament title, or been ranked in the top 25 consistently.
# of turnovers on the offensive end, and lack of # of turn overs on the defensive end is yet another statistic/story as why Wojo will never lead Marquette to constant success.
I'm still holding out hope for the D to improve after the current break.
The team and coaching staff should be aware of the issues and there is ample time to work on correcting them.
If they're not fixed, there shouldn't be a single MU fan defending Wojo.
The bigger question to me is how do we fix it?
I think it's fair to say prior teams were limited on how good they could be on D given the players w had.
Now, we seem to have the right players to fit the type of D Wojo wants to play but still not getting it done and actually worse than before... how is that possible?
I am also cautiously holding out hope that we will see a young team improve over the course of the season but if not I don't know where else you go to find optimism...
Quote from: JTBMU7 on December 28, 2020, 08:41:50 PM
The bigger question to me is how do we fix it?
I think it's fair to say prior teams were limited on how good they could be on D given the players w had.
Now, we seem to have the right players to fit the type of D Wojo wants to play but still not getting it done and actually worse than before... how is that possible?
I am also cautiously holding out hope that we will see a young team improve over the course of the season but if not I don't know where else you go to find optimism...
This. Hopefully we see improvement. If not it is an indictment.
To be fair, the Duke Coach K system doesn't stress Defensive Turnovers either (middling historically over time for a very good overall Defense). They do stress limiting eFG% as they defend in space.
Tough teams make the other team turn the ball over. It can be scheme, pressure, deflections or pace—make the other team uncomfortable so they do something sloppy.
Teams that play MU are very relaxed.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 28, 2020, 09:47:28 PM
To be fair, the Duke Coach K system doesn't stress Defensive Turnovers either (middling historically over time for a very good overall Defense). They do stress limiting eFG% as they defend in space.
Ok so maybe we are operating an outdated form of defense that is not really effective against the types of offenses we see in today's game? Space/pace/3s not exactly what K and Wojo faced in the 90s...
Wojo almost never presses, never denies the ball up high (even when a shooter is white hot), never fronts the post, rarely double teams, never uses a half court trap, rarely pressures the ball handler... etc...
The thing is - even when guys have instincts for this - he seems to coach it out of them.
Yet another example where the Calipari method would be better... recruit great players and then don't coach them at all... just let them play. I think this team this year would play much better without the constraints imposed by Wojo.
I don't mind a defensive style that doesn't force turnovers as there is a theoretical bonus to defensive eFG%. Several top defensive teams play with this style. Wisconsin is probably the most well known and Virginia has had a few years of pressure defense, but usually they are sitting in the back end of defensive TO%.
The offensive turnovers on the other hand...
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 28, 2020, 11:26:27 PM
I don't mind a defensive style that doesn't force turnovers as there is a theoretical bonus to defensive eFG%. Several top defensive teams play with this style. Wisconsin is probably the most well known and Virginia has had a few years of pressure defense, but usually they are sitting in the back end of defensive TO%.
The offensive turnovers on the other hand...
Right, it obviously works elsewhere and we have good enough players to be - at a minimum - decent, so does it all come down to offensive turnovers? I feel like that's the bigger issue overall, not sure it's one for one but I have to imagine an offensive TO rate over 20% will lead to less opportunities to set the Def and be aggressive on the other end...
Quote from: WarriorFan on December 28, 2020, 11:24:32 PM
Wojo almost never presses, never denies the ball up high (even when a shooter is white hot), never fronts the post, rarely double teams, never uses a half court trap, rarely pressures the ball handler... etc...
The thing is - even when guys have instincts for this - he seems to coach it out of them.
Yet another example where the Calipari method would be better... recruit great players and then don't coach them at all... just let them play. I think this team this year would play much better without the constraints imposed by Wojo.
Can't argue with your first sentence, but the next one...c'mon, really? Remember how he gave JaJuan Johnson, whose body and agility was built for gambling on steals, some leeway to play to his strengths? It was only when he gambled so bad on a pass that was a <10%-steal-chance that Wojo would pull him.
My main knock on Wojo defensively is that we haven't developed an identity on that end of the floor. Coach has done a fine job establishing one on Offense.
What kind of D are we going to be known for? Obviously never the Pitino UK style of constant pressure or the corrolary Nolan Richardson 40MOH. And with the versatile kind of bigs we now have, we will never pack it in.
I know I sound like a broken record with my love of the '94 Warriors brand of defense. I know guys like Jimmy Mac are very hard to come by, but so many bigs today think they can defend all over the perimeter and inside, when they'd be better served being an anchor down low. We were who we were, super scrappy over-playing guards like Tony Miller and Roney Eford who didn't care if they got beat on the perimeter...all to funnel you down to an amazing shot blocker in McIlvaine. Mac never tried to guard you on the perimeter of course, he had very slow feet laterally, but he could swoop from his low block perch and fly out to contest your "3", of which he almost always changed your arc. That team knew how to help-defend too in the event the would-be shooter tried to dish it to Mac's now unguarded man. That was identity. You knew exactly what we were going to do, and yet you almost couldn't even simulate or prepare for it.
Also, on that note of the '94 Warriors, I ran into a good coaching friend of Coach Bob Huggins the other day at my local OTB 😂. We got to talking about some of his epic battles with KO. He told me how Coach O'Neill often said how he knew damn well he took the MU job at the perfect time, as that WI recruiting class was so talented and almost tailor-made for his defensive coaching style. FWIW, he also maybe shed some light on what some other posters cryptically referred to here re Wisconsin kids. Namely, that they are coached in good systems and very skilled, but that they sometimes try to do too much instead of playing to their strengths. He said that Logtermann, Key, and Mac knew exactly "where their bread was buttered" and played their role to the hilt.
Quote from: NorthernDancerColt on December 29, 2020, 08:40:43 AM
Can't argue with your first sentence, but the next one...c'mon, really? Remember how he gave JaJuan Johnson, whose body and ability was built for gambling on steals, some leeway to play to his strengths? It was only when he gambled so bad on a pass that was a <10%-steal-chance that Wojo would pull him.
Jajuan was pretty much the only Wojo player to consistently improve his steal rate. Look at Duane Wilson. When his steal rate went up, his minutes went down. Markus Howard's steal rate went down every year. Same for Sam Hauser. Sacar, Jamal, and Theo all saw steal rates decline 2/3 seasons and never matched their freshman rates. Greg Elliott's current steal rate is the only long term player I've found to have a higher steal rate as an upperclassman (2.8% this year) than as an underclassman (2.7% as a freshman).
For transfers, Carlino, Reinhardt, and McEwen have all had lower steal rates at Marquette than they did at any previous program. Though the worst was Chartouny, who went from literally one of the best thieves in the country to a player whose steal rate was cut in half and frequently looked paralyzed on defense, unsure if he should follow his instincts or not.
The question is not IF Wojo coaches steals out of his players, he absolutely, unquestionably does, it's why he does that when it clearly has an adverse impact on winning.
I think there are two things that make this year's number higher. The first would be the shorter non-conference schedule, which eliminated a few bunny games. The second is that Wojo now seems to emphasize getting the ball inside. I think this leads to more turnovers than if we were jacking it up from three. Anyways every time I see the percentage of times we turn the ball over it really highlights what a big problem this is.
I was expecting the turnovers to go down post Markus and that does not seem to be happening.
MU is running a 3-out 2-in this year, starting with Dawson/Lewis at the high post and Theo in the low block. This set is different than Wojo has run in the past. This also leads to uncertainty about roles, reading, and reacting, leading to dragged pivot feet and bad passes. I also believe, but have no data, that this set leads to slower pace of play. Garcia and Lewis try to do the hi-lo thing from the top of the key. They are freshmen and this can lead to bad passes. Jamal does not dribble well. I know his overall turnover rate is relatively low, but he has shown a knack for recovering his dribbles off of his knee. He does not feed the post well. Koby starts on the other wing. When he gets the ball, he has Theo on the low block looking for a feed taking away a driving lane and Garcia/Lewis near the top of the key with their defender in perfect help position. DJ keeps refusing the high screen. Then Garcia/Lewis flare out to the three point line. Rolling isn't a good option because Theo's defender is down there. And so is Theo. Occupying a lot of space. When Theo is out, and it is Garcia and Lewis interchangeably going between high and low post, they do try to pass to each other while cutting. When it works, it looks great. It doesn't always work. Two freshmen trying to pass in a small, congested area.
My solutions. More practice time. It would help a lot if Lewis and Garcia started hitting 3's again in order to bring their defender out higher. Clear a side for a wing. Start setting a pick that DJ actually accepts. With Theo, so you can have Garcia/Lewis on the low block flaring to the opposite corner for a 15 ft jumper or a run to the rim past a recovering defender. Run a weak side pick to get Koby/Jamal/Greg open. This works better in 4 out sets.
Say what you want about Markus. Having him out there on top created more space on the wings. When Joey and Sam were on opposite wings, the defensive awareness on him created a lot of open looks for them. (apparently not enough). Last year, with less accomplished 3 pt shooters (Bailey, Sacar, Koby) defenses did not pay enough for selling out to stop Markus. There was no penalty for running two and three defenders at him. This year, there is no penalty for defending the paint and then closing out to the shooter. There is always a defender in position behind.
Quote from: NorthernDancerColt on December 29, 2020, 08:54:00 AM
Also, on that note of the '94 Warriors, I ran into a good coaching friend of Coach Bob Huggins the other day at my local OTB 😂. We got to talking about some of his epic battles with KO. He told me how Coach O'Neill often said how he knew damn well he took the MU job at the perfect time, as that WI recruiting class was so talented and almost tailor-made for his defensive coaching style. FWIW, he also maybe shed some light on what some other posters cryptically referred to here re Wisconsin kids. Namely, that they are coached in good systems and very skilled, but that they sometimes try to do too much instead of playing to their strengths. He said that Logtermann, Key, and Mac knew exactly "where their bread was buttered" and played their role to the hilt.
Someone today asked me about Ron Curry. I had to tell him the sad news about Ron passing away in 2018. Anyway, today while watching Ron on YouTube speaking at the 100 year shindig emceed by Bilas, I continued to listen to Tony Miller and Aaron Hutchins...Tony spoke of how great KO was at adjusting mid-game and how he and KO were in constant communication during games about how best to adjust on defense, and how that led to continuity on offense as well. Tony was a true general on the floor.
Quote from: Badgerhater on December 28, 2020, 09:52:30 PM
Tough teams make the other team turn the ball over. It can be scheme, pressure, deflections or pace—make the other team uncomfortable so they do something sloppy.
Teams that play MU are very relaxed.
Good observation.
I dread Providence and Seton Hall, as tough as you get. Sometimes it is not x's and o's, it's just heart and character. I think that spark is why we sometimes win the unexpected game. We also play down to some teams level. It's not x's and o's, did I mention that?
Quote from: JTBMU7 on December 28, 2020, 10:03:52 PM
Ok so maybe we are operating an outdated form of defense that is not really effective against the types of offenses we see in today's game? Space/pace/3s not exactly what K and Wojo faced in the 90s...
I'd be interested in seeing teams that had Coach K's number throughout the 90s and see what kind of style they played with.