MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: PuertoRicanNightmare on February 05, 2008, 08:25:39 AM
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The reason we were embarrassed last night is simple...Crean is a lousy recruiter. You cannot look at those two teams and honestly say we have even near the talent that Louisville has.
Crean is constantly drawing raves from national writers who don't follow the team for his recruiting. Who, other than Wesley, has he signed where he had to beat out another school? Who? James? He was a fallback plan when that kid from Brother Rice signed with North Carolina? McNeal? He was offered by Dayton. Hayward didn't start on his high school team. Cubillan was the last of his HS team to sign with a team. Barro didn't play in high school. Acker is a 5'7" transfer from Ball State.
I mean, where does this idea that Crean is a good recruiter come from? Where?!?!
You want to know what a recruiting "bump" is from a Final Four appearance? Take a look at Louisville.
I will grant you that our junior class is a decent class -- not great as I don't think any of them would start for Louisville, but after our FF in 2003, here are our classes:
2003 class
James Matthews -- GONE
Carlton Christian -- GONE
Dameon Mason -- GONE
Brandon Bell -- GONE
(AN ENTIRE YEAR OF RECRUITING A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME!!!)
2004
Amoroso -- GONE
Kinsella
Lott (JC)
2005
James
McNeal
Matthews
Burke
Mortensen -- GONE
2006
Hayward
Cubillian
Blackledge (JC)
We looked like a JV team last night and the reason is that we have a bunch of JV recruits.
Frankly, with the post season performance we've had the last 4 years and the 4 routs in league play, I suspect that a half-empty Bradley Center will be the rule rather than the exception the rest of the way.
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Bravo. Per the usual, you take a few good points and take them so far off to the extreme as to make yourself appear completely irrational and illogical.
Yay for extremist points of view.
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We looked like a JV team last night and the reason is that we have a bunch of JV recruits.
Frankly, with the post season performance we've had the last 4 years and the 4 routs in league play, I suspect that a half-empty Bradley Center will be the rule rather than the exception the rest of the way.
Do you really believe this?
I understand your frustration, but the Bradley will be full for Pitt and Georgetown... to think otherwise is irrational.
Just stop and think about it...
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Bravo. Per the usual, you take a few good points and take them so far off to the extreme as to make yourself appear completely irrational and illogical.
Yay for extremist points of view.
Amen. It is very frustrating to see UL with 4 guys that are 6-10 and can play, and for the most part we don't have any (With apologies to Mbakwe who is unfortunately unavailable at the moment). Obviously finding those talented big guys is a challenge for most teams, and Crean is no exception, but to suggest that we are completely devoid of talent is just stupid.
As for the 1/2 empty BC comment - also, just stupid.
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The reason we were embarrassed last night is simple...Crean is a lousy recruiter. You cannot look at those two teams and honestly say we have even near the talent that Louisville has.
Crean is constantly drawing raves from national writers who don't follow the team for his recruiting. Who, other than Wesley, has he signed where he had to beat out another school? Who? James? He was a fallback plan when that kid from Brother Rice signed with North Carolina? McNeal? He was offered by Dayton. Hayward didn't start on his high school team. Cubillan was the last of his HS team to sign with a team. Barro didn't play in high school. Acker is a 5'7" transfer from Ball State.
I mean, where does this idea that Crean is a good recruiter come from? Where?!?!
You want to know what a recruiting "bump" is from a Final Four appearance? Take a look at Louisville.
I will grant you that our junior class is a decent class -- not great as I don't think any of them would start for Louisville, but after our FF in 2003, here are our classes:
2003 class
James Matthews -- GONE
Carlton Christian -- GONE
Dameon Mason -- GONE
Brandon Bell -- GONE
(AN ENTIRE YEAR OF RECRUITING A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME!!!)
2004
Amoroso -- GONE
Kinsella
Lott (JC)
2005
James
McNeal
Matthews
Burke
Mortensen -- GONE
2006
Hayward
Cubillian
Blackledge (JC)
We looked like a JV team last night and the reason is that we have a bunch of JV recruits.
Frankly, with the post season performance we've had the last 4 years and the 4 routs in league play, I suspect that a half-empty Bradley Center will be the rule rather than the exception the rest of the way.
Do you remember Steve Novak, Travis Diener or Dwyane Wade? Would you rather have Bobby Frasor than Dominc James?
Louisville was picked 2nd in the BE...when healthy...btw, they are healthy.
Pitino didn't need a Final Four bump...he got it when he showed up. That's what happens when your name is Rick Pitino. You don't think Hayward is a solid player? You don't think he chose MU over other schools?
Out of Matthews, Mason, Bell or Christian...which would you like to see on this team?
Were you this critical of Deane's recruiting?
Do you really think there will be 9,500 people showing up at the BC for the remaining games?
Do you think a team that is not talented can beat ND by 26 and win on the road at WI? What other untalented teams can pull that off?
Ridiculous.
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I think what's really upsetting is that while we get a lot of attention for our guards, they're only about the sixth-best group in this conference. It's one thing not to recruit good big men if you have great guards, but our guards are far from great and take no one by surprise anymore.
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Crean is constantly drawing raves from national writers who don't follow the team for his recruiting. Who, other than Wesley, has he signed where he had to beat out another school? Who? James? He was a fallback plan when that kid from Brother Rice signed with North Carolina? McNeal? He was offered by Dayton. Hayward didn't start on his high school team. Cubillan was the last of his HS team to sign with a team. Barro didn't play in high school. Acker is a 5'7" transfer from Ball State.
Shocking that once again you have your facts wrong. James was never a fallback plan. The goal was James and Frasor, not Frasor instead of James. And he got James over MSU, OSU, ND, Indiana and Iowa. The kid didn't come here because he had no other options.
Hayward was one of the most sought after swingmen in the country the year he came out. You can talk about not starting all you want but he was a bonafide top 100 recruit with offers from some big name schools.
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You guys are right. Crean is a fantastic recruiter! Next year he's got two guys coming in here who he's never even seen play. If Buzz Williams quits like all the rest of our assistants, will they even show up in Milwaukee?
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I mean, where does this idea that Crean is a good recruiter come from? Where?!?!
Dwyane Wade, Travis Diener, Steve Novak, Robert Jackson, Todd Townsend, Scott Merritt, Dominick James, Jerel McNeal, Wesley Matthews, Lazar Hayward...
Take a look back at some of the All Conference teams, POY, Defensive POY, Freshman of the year honors, etc. It might provide you with a few clues as to where that idea comes from. C'mon Poindexter, you're better than that.
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You guys are right. Crean is a fantastic recruiter! Next year he's got two guys coming in here who he's never even seen play. If Buzz Williams quits like all the rest of our assistants, will they even show up in Milwaukee?
Do you want Assistant Coaches who want to be Assistants their entire career?
How about those "Final Four bumps" that LSU, Illinois, Georgia Tech, Oklahoma State and Maryland are experiencing...
Here's your chance.....Who should be our next coach?
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We have good talent, it's just not spread out properly. We are missing the three point shooter who can get catch and shoot in a hurry at a good percentage. We are missing the guy who can catch the ball in the low post and make a move to score or make a solid pass for a score. We are missing a 6-8 slasher/finisher. We are missing the big guy who patrols the paint and discourages forays to the hoop.
James, Matthews, McNeal and Hayward would be good, useful players for any program in the country and were very good gets for Crean. Problem is they all are the same kind of player. We need more balance.
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PRN,
I typically enjoy your posts and agree with a lot of them, but I think this one is taking things a bit too far. I agree that the 3 amigos are a bit overrated as guards who can't shoot may not be the greatest recruits, but to suggest that they are a JV team is taking things a bit too far. The obvious problem is the lack of a big man with scoring ability. If MU had that, it would open things up more for everyone else. I'm more concerned with the lack of development right now with the players than the guys who are coming in.
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I mean, where does this idea that Crean is a good recruiter come from? Where?!?!
Dwyane Wade, Travis Diener, Steve Novak, Robert Jackson, Todd Townsend, Scott Merritt, Dominick James, Jerel McNeal, Wesley Matthews, Lazar Hayward...
Take a look back at some of the All Conference teams, POY, Defensive POY, Freshman of the year honors, etc. It might provide you with a few clues as to where that idea comes from. C'mon Poindexter, you're better than that.
Todd Townsend?!?! You're using him as an example of good recruiting!? He was benched almost his entire junior year and was only a marginal contributor during a horrendous senior year. I would wager than his career scoring average was less than 6 points a game.
Jackson was a transfer!! Are you kidding?
Wade, Diener, Merritt...all were early in Crean's tenure...what have you done lately?
As for McNeal and James...am I missing something? Were these guys highly recruited?
I do like Hayward, however.
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I mean, where does this idea that Crean is a good recruiter come from? Where?!?!
Dwyane Wade, Travis Diener, Steve Novak, Robert Jackson, Todd Townsend, Scott Merritt, Dominick James, Jerel McNeal, Wesley Matthews, Lazar Hayward...
Take a look back at some of the All Conference teams, POY, Defensive POY, Freshman of the year honors, etc. It might provide you with a few clues as to where that idea comes from. C'mon Poindexter, you're better than that.
Todd Townsend?!?! You're using him as an example of good recruiting!? He was benched almost his entire junior year and was only a marginal contributor during a horrendous senior year. I would wager than his career scoring average was less than 6 points a game.
Jackson was a transfer!! Are you kidding?
Wade, Diener, Merritt...all were early in Crean's tenure...what have you done lately?
As for McNeal and James...am I missing something? Were these guys highly recruited?
I do like Hayward, however.
You seriously don't think James was highly recruited? He was one of the most sought after players in the country that year. He had offers from MSU, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Iowa, Purdue, Xavier...and Indiana came in at the last minute with an offer. Schools like Louisville, Kansas and Florida were involved and their interest in him was actually picking up when Crean got him to commit.
McNeal wasn't as highly recruited but Purdue and Dayton were on him very hard when he committed to MU.
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I think I get it now...the player you are recruiting in HS, is more important than the player that kid translates to in college. Well, using that logic, Dwyane Wade was a bust, and don't forget Sam Okey...what a stud!
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For a team that plays in the best conference in the country, has numerous games televised on national tv and a prominent history in NCAA basketball, I still do not understand why MU cannot, on a continuing basis, be in contention for a top 50 recruit. Yes this year, we were in for Iman Shumpert and came close, but did not close the deal. Nick Williams may move up based upon his senior year and T. Taylor has some height at point. By now you noticied all are guards and not frontcourt. If you look at these upper echelon players and their schools of potential interest, MU is hardly ever considered. Maybe the staff has the fear of the one year/two year up and out, but at least make an effort. Why are these players not including MU in their interests? I have no clue. With James, Matthews and McNeal all gone, 2009 will be the make or break recruiting year, since we actually in the running for some playmakers, to include Jamil Wilson (a must), Maurice Creek, Dominic Cheek and I believe Flavian Davis, who may be 2010 (?).
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The thing that I just noticed, probably because I never thought about it is that this team has really not had any "new blood" at all this year.
We are more or less the same team in terms of the players who get regular minutes (Dwight Burke picking up for Jamil Lott), but other than some token minutes from Christopherson, and the addition of a 5'8" transfer, have we really put out a team that was THAT DIFFERENT from last year's team?
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The thing that I just noticed, probably because I never thought about it is that this team has really not had any "new blood" at all this year.
We are more or less the same team in terms of the players who get regular minutes (Dwight Burke picking up for Jamil Lott), but other than some token minutes from Christopherson, and the addition of a 5'8" transfer, have we really put out a team that was THAT DIFFERENT from last year's team?
Its a good point, and illustrates that the impact of the injuries to Christopherson and Mbakwe has probably been severely underestimated.
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You guys are right. Crean is a fantastic recruiter! Next year he's got two guys coming in here who he's never even seen play. If Buzz Williams quits like all the rest of our assistants, will they even show up in Milwaukee?
Do you want Assistant Coaches who want to be Assistants their entire career?
How about those "Final Four bumps" that LSU, Illinois, Georgia Tech, Oklahoma State
and Maryland are experiencing...
Here's your chance.....Who should be our next coach?
I'll play this game.
Sean Miller-Xavier
Brian Gregory-Dayton
Tony Bennett-WSU
Scott Drew-Baylor
Anthony Grant-VCU
Have no idea what the interest would be but that's who I'd target. I don't hate Crean and I appreciate what he's done at Marquette. I hate the people who feel he can do no wrong. I hate the people who feel if Crean left that the Marquette basketball program would shrivel up into a ball and whimper like a little girl. We're a Big East school with a beautiful practice facility with outstanding fan support. Hey, I completely agree that Tom Crean has a great deal to do with these things. Again, thanks Tom. But with the built in advantages this program has and its willingness to pay the head basketball coach a crap load of money this program will survive just fine. Hopefully a new coach would conduct himself with a little more class than what Crean did last night by walking off the court and not shaking the other team's hands.
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I'll play this game.
Sean Miller-Xavier
Brian Gregory-Dayton
Tony Bennett-WSU
Scott Drew-Baylor
Anthony Grant-VCU
Have no idea what the interest would be but that's who I'd target.
Fine choices, but what have any of those guys done that Crean didn't do back around 2002 or so? With the possible exception of WSU, and Xavier who has had a couple good years, those guys have basically gotten their programs to the level MU was at a few years back. What have any of them done that Crean has not? For example, Dayton is 11-12 in the A-10 the last 2 seasons combined. WSU has a worse conference record than MU this year. Grant has had some success in the Colonial League. How exactly would they constitute an upgrade?
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I'd settle for a coach who is even marginally likable.
By the way, the job Scott Drew has done at Baylor is nothing short of a miracle. How is he getting good recruits to Waco on the heels of them almost dropping the basketball program?
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Plenty of people like Crean.
Baylor must be getting all marquee, top 50 recruits that were offered by tons of other schools...and all of Drew's assistants must love him and never aspire to leave.
Those 5 coaches previously mentioned have 2 NCAA tournament wins......combined.
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I'll play this game.
Sean Miller-Xavier
Brian Gregory-Dayton
Tony Bennett-WSU
Scott Drew-Baylor
Anthony Grant-VCU
Have no idea what the interest would be but that's who I'd target.
Fine choices, but what have any of those guys done that Crean didn't do back around 2002 or so? With the possible exception of WSU, and Xavier who has had a couple good years, those guys have basically gotten their programs to the level MU was at a few years back. What have any of them done that Crean has not? For example, Dayton is 11-12 in the A-10 the last 2 seasons combined. WSU has a worse conference record than MU this year. Grant has had some success in the Colonial League. How exactly would they constitute an upgrade?
I'm not saying fire Tom Crean and hire one of these guys. I'm saying if Tom Crean leaves I think the program survives just fine with one of these guys. Honestly, I don't think there's a chance in hell Crean gets fired. He will have to leave to take another job. My first choice would be Drew. What he's done with Baylor is astounding. That program was as close to the death penalty as you could possibly be and here is having them contend for an NCAA berth. Miller would be #2. He's got the Pitt and BE ties, he can recruit. Any five of these guys would be coming into a situation at Marquette that is easier to win then where they are at. Again, thanks to Crean.
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Plenty of people like Crean.
Baylor must be getting all marquee, top 50 recruits that were offered by tons of other schools...and all of Drew's assistants must love him and never aspire to leave.
Those 5 coaches previously mentioned have 2 NCAA tournament wins......combined.
Without Wade, Crean has zero...combined.
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I'd settle for a coach who is even marginally likable.
The naivety in that statement is mind blowing. Ever met the man? Ever witnessed him in a situation not necessarily involving basketball? I'm guessing not. I have personally witnessed things that make suggestions that he lacks class or is unlikeable among the most absurd things ever posted on these boards. That is quite a feat.
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I'm not saying fire Tom Crean and hire one of these guys. I'm saying if Tom Crean leaves I think the program survives just fine with one of these guys. Honestly, I don't think there's a chance in hell Crean gets fired. He will have to leave to take another job. My first choice would be Drew. What he's done with Baylor is astounding. That program was as close to the death penalty as you could possibly be and here is having them contend for an NCAA berth. Miller would be #2. He's got the Pitt and BE ties, he can recruit. Any five of these guys would be coming into a situation at Marquette that is easier to win then where they are at. Again, thanks to Crean.
Agreed.
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I'd settle for a coach who is even marginally likable.
By the way, the job Scott Drew has done at Baylor is nothing short of a miracle. How is he getting good recruits to Waco on the heels of them almost dropping the basketball program?
Likable is just an opinion you have. There is really no point debating that stuff.
If the next coach comes in and has the same success that Crean has had, but is deemed "more likable" by you, then would that make you more happy?
If your answer is yes, then I can appreciate the honesty and passion.
But, let's not confuse likability and performance. Crean's performance hasn't been perfect this season, but his overall resume is very good (like him or not).
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as I have stated a number of times before, while TC has glaring shortcomings (poor game coach, average recruiter), I believe he tries to compensate by working harder than anyone else. Additionally, the combination of Bill Cords' hard work over the years, and MU's success in '03, has given us the ability to 1. build a state of the art practice facility, 2. enjoy great support at the BC, 3. finally join a top conference (gawd, those years as an independent were brutal), and 4. pay our coaching staff a ton of money. As a result, we are in an enviable position, should we have to replace a coach. That being said, I prefer to keep TC, as..."the bird in the hand"...
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Plenty of people like Crean.
Baylor must be getting all marquee, top 50 recruits that were offered by tons of other schools...and all of Drew's assistants must love him and never aspire to leave.
Those 5 coaches previously mentioned have 2 NCAA tournament wins......combined.
Without Wade, Crean has zero...combined.
There are well over 300 Active D-I coaches with ZERO Final Fours.....combined.
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There is also Bobby Cremins, who made a Final Four. And Bill Hodges. And Clem Haskins, Mike Davis, Jim Larranaga, Richard Williams, Paul Hewitt and Lon Kruger.
Hell, Steve Fischer won a national championship and has been to THREE Final Fours!!
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There is also Bobby Cremins, who made a Final Four. And Bill Hodges. And Clem Haskins, Mike Davis, Jim Larranaga, Richard Williams, Paul Hewitt and Lon Kruger.
Hell, Steve Fischer won a national championship and has been to THREE Final Fours!!
I don't want to debate this... but I do have to say that Clem Haskins has never been to a Final 4.
They were "convicted" of cheating and that final 4 has been wiped off of the books.
So, while Clem was successful, he is also a proven cheater... so please don't act like he's a better choice than Crean (which seems to be the implication by listing him here).
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There is also Bobby Cremins, who made a Final Four. And Bill Hodges. And Clem Haskins, Mike Davis, Jim Larranaga, Richard Williams, Paul Hewitt and Lon Kruger.
Hell, Steve Fischer won a national championship and has been to THREE Final Fours!!
I don't want to debate this... but I do have to say that Clem Haskins has never been to a Final 4.
They were "convicted" of cheating and that final 4 has been wiped off of the books.
So, while Clem was successful, he is also a proven cheater... so please don't act like he's a better choice than Crean (which seems to be the implication by listing him here).
Huh? I don't know how you can read my posts and come up with some of the interpretations that you do.
It's not that these guys are "better choices." They're not. But they've all made the Final Four. MarquetteFan94 seems to think the fact that a coach made a Final Four means that they walk on water. This list proves otherwise.
In the music world, many of them would be considered "one hit wonders." As of right now, Tom Crean's name belongs on that list.
By the way, Hewitt made the Final Four the year after Marquette and he's on the hot seat down there. And he's getting highly sought after recruits!
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There is also Bobby Cremins, who made a Final Four. And Bill Hodges. And Clem Haskins, Mike Davis, Jim Larranaga, Richard Williams, Paul Hewitt and Lon Kruger.
Hell, Steve Fischer won a national championship and has been to THREE Final Fours!!
I don't want to debate this... but I do have to say that Clem Haskins has never been to a Final 4.
They were "convicted" of cheating and that final 4 has been wiped off of the books.
So, while Clem was successful, he is also a proven cheater... so please don't act like he's a better choice than Crean (which seems to be the implication by listing him here).
Huh? I don't know how you can read my posts and come up with some of the interpretations that you do.
It's not that these guys are "better choices." They're not. But they've all made the Final Four. MarquetteFan94 seems to think the fact that a coach made a Final Four means that they walk on water. This list proves otherwise.
In the music world, many of them would be considered "one hit wonders." As of right now, Tom Crean's name belongs on that list.
By the way, Hewitt made the Final Four the year after Marquette and he's on the hot seat down there. And he's getting highly sought after recruits!
Maybe Hewitt is on the hot seat because his conference record since that time is 23-32 (41.82 winning %).
FYI, Marquette over that same time (including the last year in CUSA) is 33-25 (56.9%).
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There is also Bobby Cremins, who made a Final Four. And Bill Hodges. And Clem Haskins, Mike Davis, Jim Larranaga, Richard Williams, Paul Hewitt and Lon Kruger.
Hell, Steve Fischer won a national championship and has been to THREE Final Fours!!
I don't want to debate this... but I do have to say that Clem Haskins has never been to a Final 4.
They were "convicted" of cheating and that final 4 has been wiped off of the books.
So, while Clem was successful, he is also a proven cheater... so please don't act like he's a better choice than Crean (which seems to be the implication by listing him here).
Huh? I don't know how you can read my posts and come up with some of the interpretations that you do.
It's not that these guys are "better choices." They're not. But they've all made the Final Four. MarquetteFan94 seems to think the fact that a coach made a Final Four means that they walk on water. This list proves otherwise.
In the music world, many of them would be considered "one hit wonders." As of right now, Tom Crean's name belongs on that list.
By the way, Hewitt made the Final Four the year after Marquette and he's on the hot seat down there. And he's getting highly sought after recruits!
Hey, you're right... I'm just missing something here.
I'm going to bow out of this thread.
I don't have a personal dislike of our coach and I'm trying to be as objective as I can about his performance compared to previous MU coaches and other coaches in the college game.
I think he's doing a pretty nice job, but obviously not perfect.
I know some people will think that makes me some sort of apologist... and that's fine. We can all have differing opinions.
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Actually Louisville was picked to win the Big East this year, not picked for 2nd.
Last night showed how loaded Louisville is. To say "we are simply not talented" is a strange comment to read, however. We're talented enough to be in 5th place in the Big East with 8 games to go...talented enough to hang with Duke and their all-americans and McDonalds players, talented enough to beat a Wisconsin.
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By the way, Hewitt made the Final Four the year after Marquette and he's on the hot seat down there. And he's getting highly sought after recruits!
Huh? Now I'm thoroughly confused. These are some of your comments from earlier today...
Who, other than Wesley, has he signed where he had to beat out another school?
Wade, Diener, Merritt...all were early in Crean's tenure...what have you done lately? As for McNeal and James...am I missing something? Were these guys highly recruited?
So Hewitt is getting those highly sought after recruits, yet they aren't winning games. According to you, Crean gets little more than cast offs and rejects, yet MU seems headed for its 3rd consecutive winning season in the Big East. I guess he must be doing something right. I guess sometimes what a guy does in college is perhaps a little more important than perceptions of those guys in HS. Or, is this the point where you change to argument again to Crean lacking class or being unlikeable?
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I'd settle for a coach who is even marginally likable.
Proves your complete lack of objectivity. We get it. You don't like Crean as a person. That's fine. You don't have to. But to even pretend you're offering objective insight is ridiculous.
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I'd settle for a coach who is even marginally likable.
Proves your complete lack of objectivity. We get it. You don't like Crean as a person. That's fine. You don't have to. But to even pretend you're offering objective insight is ridiculous.
PRN wants Wainwright or Joey Meyer ;)
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You want to know what a recruiting "bump" is from a Final Four appearance? Take a look at Louisville.
I will grant you that our junior class is a decent class -- not great as I don't think any of them would start for Louisville, but after our FF in 2003, here are our classes:
2003 class
James Matthews -- GONE
Carlton Christian -- GONE
Dameon Mason -- GONE
Brandon Bell -- GONE
(AN ENTIRE YEAR OF RECRUITING A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME!!!)
You're right, why didn't we get a bump in our 2003 recruiting class? Don't top recruits usually throw away their commitments and switch to a team that is in the final four after seeing who makes it? ::)
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As far as MU's lack of talent goes, here are some quote from PRN over the past couple months...
McNeal is a great player - January 21, 2008, 08:24:59 AM
Matthews has so much ability...probably more than James because of his size. - January 28, 2008, 04:49:10 PM
I really like Acker. He can hit a jumper, cause some problems with his quickness and change the pace of the game in spurts. He's a poor man's Cordell Henry.
I think he's the best transfer we've had since Robert Jackson - January 14, 2008, 10:06:03 AM
Put Butch with McNeal, James, Cubes, and Hayward and we're talking national championship contender. - December 10, 2007, 09:14:28 AM
Somebody must be getting through to these very talented guys!! - December 08, 2007, 08:05:37 PM
At least he isn't fickle. We went from being one player away (replacing Matthews with Butch) from a National Title contender, to having a bunch of JV recruits in a remarkably short period of time. I respect a person's ability to realize his mistakes, but this stuff would make John Kerry blush.
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Awesome. Thanks for caring so much about me. I don't quite feel like spending time researching my undeniably impressive body of work, but it did seem to me that many of these things were taken out of context.
Wouldn't it have been much more honest if, for instance, you posted the entire contents of my post about McNeal?
McNeal is a great player, but he's been given too much freedom offensively since he got here. What player would be allowed to turn the ball over 6 times and stay in the game, as he did against Louisville?
Hayward should be a much more focal part of the offense than Jerel.
And I do like Acker. And he is our best transfer since Jackson. But his talent level is not on par with the rest of the Big East and doesn't represent a recruiting victory for Crean.
But again, thanks for spending so much time on me.
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but it did seem to me that many of these things were taken out of context.
Another John Kerry comparison seems appropriate here, but...Your point was that we are not talented. Exactly what important context did I leave out that misrepresented what you said? That Jerel McNeal is given too much freedom? What in that comment suggests a lack of talent? That Hayward should be more of a focal point of the offense than Jerel? Given the rest of your comments, that would seem to suggest more talent, not less.
Taken out of context...Never heard that one before. What are you going to do next, claim to be an alcoholic and check yourself into rehab like everyone else who says or does something stupid?
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Keep researching!!
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There is also Bobby Cremins, who made a Final Four. And Bill Hodges. And Clem Haskins, Mike Davis, Jim Larranaga, Richard Williams, Paul Hewitt and Lon Kruger.
Hell, Steve Fischer won a national championship and has been to THREE Final Fours!!
I don't want to debate this... but I do have to say that Clem Haskins has never been to a Final 4.
They were "convicted" of cheating and that final 4 has been wiped off of the books.
So, while Clem was successful, he is also a proven cheater... so please don't act like he's a better choice than Crean (which seems to be the implication by listing him here).
Huh? I don't know how you can read my posts and come up with some of the interpretations that you do.
It's not that these guys are "better choices." They're not. But they've all made the Final Four. MarquetteFan94 seems to think the fact that a coach made a Final Four means that they walk on water. This list proves otherwise.
In the music world, many of them would be considered "one hit wonders." As of right now, Tom Crean's name belongs on that list.
By the way, Hewitt made the Final Four the year after Marquette and he's on the hot seat down there. And he's getting highly sought after recruits!
Are you serious with that list?!
What's your point about listing: Hewitt, Haskins, Cremins, Hodges, Davis, Krueger, Larranga? Would you rather have ANY of them coaching at MU than Crean?
Are you comparing our program to George Mason or the 1979 Indiana State team?! Actually Hewitt is a perfect example and thanks for making a point against yourself....maintaining a high level of success is pretty damned tough in D-I basketball....G-Tech is a case in point. Where's their "Final Four bump?"
Look closely at what ALL of those programs did after their Final Four with the coaches you list....compare it to MU and tell me how it compares....especially 5 years after....we are 5th place in BE with 8 games left...man, the sky is falling. Give me a frickin break.
My point on Crean making the Final Four was to point out how an impressive of an achievement that is....like it or not...you point out that that list of coaches all made the FF...how many of them made it back? It's not easy is it?
Ask Ray Meyer, Bob Huggins, John Calipari, Rick Majerus, Digger Phelps or Bill Self (oh, Self has never made it there) how easy it is to get back to the FF....take it easy, I'm not comparing Crean head-to-head with any of them but all those "one hit wonders" got there once also.....and haven't been back.
Although I'm sure you think MU should be there every year otherwise we need a new coach, right?
You never answered my question....who would your preferred coach be for MU?! All you do is criticize, complain, criticize, complain then you criticize some more. What's your solution?
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Stephen Hawking -- I'm not comparing the Marquette program to Indiana St. or George Mason!!!! I'm comparing CREAN TO THOSE COACHES!! they are all guys who got lucky for one year. Is it that difficult to comprehend?
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PLAYERS: If you're reading this...stop taking ill advised three pointers. And get the ball to Hayward more often.
Stephen Hawking --...
I think you are nuts, completely nonobjective, and pretty much a whiny little _____ where Tom Crean is concerned, but I do have to give credit where due, and say that you remain one of the more witty guys on this board.
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Stephen Hawking -- I'm not comparing the Marquette program to Indiana St. or George Mason!!!! I'm comparing CREAN TO THOSE COACHES!! they are all guys who got lucky for one year. Is it that difficult to comprehend?
Lloyd Christmas - -No sh%t.....that's why I listed all of those other COACHES...not programs.....stop sitting on your head all day. So, Crean got lucky in 2003? Interesting. Way to continue avoiding the question....who is your coach? whine, complain, whine, complain....
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Crean can't be compared to those other 1-hit wonders as Crean has been successful in the regular season since 2003. A more appropriate comparison is Bobby Knight in his final years in Indiana where the team had success during the season, but then stumbled down the stretch and played awful in the NCAA tournament and were 1 and done. Hopefully, MU is hitting its low point now, can re-group and build momentum as March approaches.
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Damn!
This thread pulled me back in.
Didn't somebody do a Billy Donavon vs Crean thing a while back?
Now, I'm not one to just compare stats and win % and stuff... but didn't their numbers look somewhat similar at this point in their careers?
Early success, then a drop-off, then some good success, then great success (I'm paraphrasing).
But, I'm guessing Billy D. has his detractors as well... so...
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But, I'm guessing Billy D. has his detractors as well... so...
And why shouldn't he? It looks they aren't even going to come close to winning their third consecutive national title.
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The reason we were embarrassed last night is simple...Crean is a lousy recruiter. You cannot look at those two teams and honestly say we have even near the talent that Louisville has.
Crean is constantly drawing raves from national writers who don't follow the team for his recruiting. Who, other than Wesley, has he signed where he had to beat out another school? Who? James? He was a fallback plan when that kid from Brother Rice signed with North Carolina? McNeal? He was offered by Dayton. Hayward didn't start on his high school team. Cubillan was the last of his HS team to sign with a team. Barro didn't play in high school. Acker is a 5'7" transfer from Ball State.
I mean, where does this idea that Crean is a good recruiter come from? Where?!?!
You want to know what a recruiting "bump" is from a Final Four appearance? Take a look at Louisville.
I will grant you that our junior class is a decent class -- not great as I don't think any of them would start for Louisville, but after our FF in 2003, here are our classes:
2003 class
James Matthews -- GONE
Carlton Christian -- GONE
Dameon Mason -- GONE
Brandon Bell -- GONE
(AN ENTIRE YEAR OF RECRUITING A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME!!!)
2004
Amoroso -- GONE
Kinsella
Lott (JC)
2005
James
McNeal
Matthews
Burke
Mortensen -- GONE
2006
Hayward
Cubillian
Blackledge (JC)
We looked like a JV team last night and the reason is that we have a bunch of JV recruits.
Frankly, with the post season performance we've had the last 4 years and the 4 routs in league play, I suspect that a half-empty Bradley Center will be the rule rather than the exception the rest of the way.
You need a new hobby
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Crean is constantly drawing raves from national writers who don't follow the team for his recruiting. Who, other than Wesley, has he signed where he had to beat out another school? Who? James? He was a fallback plan when that kid from Brother Rice signed with North Carolina? McNeal? He was offered by Dayton. Hayward didn't start on his high school team. Cubillan was the last of his HS team to sign with a team. Barro didn't play in high school. Acker is a 5'7" transfer from Ball State.
Shocking that once again you have your facts wrong. James was never a fallback plan. The goal was James and Frasor, not Frasor instead of James. And he got James over MSU, OSU, ND, Indiana and Iowa. The kid didn't come here because he had no other options.
Hayward was one of the most sought after swingmen in the country the year he came out. You can talk about not starting all you want but he was a bonafide top 100 recruit with offers from some big name schools.
Facts wrong? Umm, I remember the recruitment of James pretty well -- he was highly rated but falling through the cracks. On signing day it was between us and Purdue. MSU recruited Travis Walton (who we were also in on that year and we lost after Frasor committed to UNC -- although I think we liked James better than Walton). I don't recall OSU as being a viable option. Indiana never recruited him until the end -- and James wanted to go to IU badly but was overlooked and that was why he focused on Purdue. (There are stories about it). I don't recall Iowa at all. So lets get real -- we were all online here watching and hoping James would pick MU over Purdue (who recently just hired Painter). THAT was the battle.
Hayward is a great player, my favorite on the team, but he was a late bloomer who was recruited by some smaller Northeastern schools for the most part. UConn got involved a bit in the end, but it wasn't between UConn and Mu. I am glad we got him, but he wasn't considered elite, at least in the beginning of recruiting. He shot up.
Those who have been around here long enough know I am critical for not getting the "numbers" recruits -- the 4-5 star players. James was certainly one of those, but the only one in range. We never got that great bump (although the "big three" was close).
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Agreed, every year we are told about the outstanding class we have coming, but it consists of 3 stars and less, while Madison gets multiple 4 stars (albeit mostly haybalers). DJ was the only consensus top 100 in that class, but McNeal's stock rose greatly right at the end, and some had Wes pretty high.
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I think the classes generally are great, because they keep getting better and better in quality.
Let's put everything in retrospect, our classes as a whole have progressing better and better. We used to get a star mixed in with a grab bag. Then we grabbed the Amigos. I'm not complaining about a class of LH, Coobs, and Mo, not great but better than previous years. With the 2010-2011 classes mixed up, they look pretty good. SC, Mbakwe, and two McD's finalists.
We may be expecting too much recruiting wise to be pulling in blue chippers every year. However, the quality of recruiting classes under TC has increade
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OSU was the second school to offer James, he'd gotten an offer from Jim O'Brien and the recruitment continued when Matta got there because Matta had been recruiting him at Xavier. He was at one point considered to be OSU's top priority at guard in that class, but then Matta realized he could get Conley in the next class. Notre Dame wanted him bad, but wanted him to make a decision right away, and he chose not to do so. Same thing with MSU, they wanted a commit during his visit to East Lansing, and James refused to do so that's when they went to Travis Walton, he was the back up plan to James. Iowa was also in on him early, because of Alford's connections to the state of Indiana.
His final two choices were MU and Purdue, but it wasn't because he wasn't hotly recruited there were a lot of schools that wanted him to come play for them and despite PRN's implication MU did get him over other schools.
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Agreed, every year we are told about the outstanding class we have coming, but it consists of 3 stars and less, while Madison gets multiple 4 stars (albeit mostly haybalers). DJ was the only consensus top 100 in that class, but McNeal's stock rose greatly right at the end, and some had Wes pretty high.
Not true. All 3 of those guys were listed in the RSCI, the composite ranking system that takes the rankings of at least 5 different recruiting services. They were all consensus top 100 guys. McNeal was ranked in all of them anywhere from 36 to 99. Matthews was listed in every individual ranking as well anywhere from 40 to 95.
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When I inquired about season tix in fall '05, a student ticket agent told me MU had the 4th rated class nationally - no lie! Either some service had them 4? or it was another PR stunt by Crean and the Athletic Dept ala "new attendance record in the state of WI" for the 10th time in 3 years.
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When I inquired about season tix in fall '05, a student ticket agent told me MU had the 4th rated class nationally - no lie! Either some service had them 4? or it was another PR stunt by Crean and the Athletic Dept ala "new attendance record in the state of WI" for the 10th time in 3 years.
The Amigos all committed early, and yes MU was ranked very high for a recruiting class. However, after all the dominoes fell, they were merely a Top 15 recruiting class.
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For a team that plays in the best conference in the country, has numerous games televised on national tv and a prominent history in NCAA basketball, I still do not understand why MU cannot, on a continuing basis, be in contention for a top 50 recruit. Yes this year, we were in for Iman Shumpert and came close, but did not close the deal. Nick Williams may move up based upon his senior year and T. Taylor has some height at point. By now you noticied all are guards and not frontcourt. If you look at these upper echelon players and their schools of potential interest, MU is hardly ever considered. Maybe the staff has the fear of the one year/two year up and out, but at least make an effort. Why are these players not including MU in their interests? I have no clue. With James, Matthews and McNeal all gone, 2009 will be the make or break recruiting year, since we actually in the running for some playmakers, to include Jamil Wilson (a must), Maurice Creek, Dominic Cheek and I believe Flavian Davis, who may be 2010 (?).
I've seen this very question posed on the St. John's and DePaul boards over and over and over again for the past 6 years. There are two programs that would give both of the proverbial nuts to be in the kind of shape MU is in.
Listen, I'm disappointed that we're 6-4 in the BE. But, this conference is brutal. Freakin' South Florida is hanging around against Georgetown tonight. If you put together the old CUSA right now, we'd beat everyone but Louisville and Memphis. However, the Big East is no CUSA. It's brutal, guys. There's about 12 above-average teams in this league. Play at Cincinnati on a Saturday morning and at home 48 hours later against Louisville. That's the hardest stretch we'd ever, ever have a few years ago. Now, it's the norm. Thursday night game on national tv against UL...then go to UCONN for a Sunday matinee. Good God.
My main criticism of this team is that I'm very surprised to see us blown out in these games. Even when we sucked, we always managed to play up to the competition in bigtime games. I have to wonder, though, if the BE schedule is too brutal to not lay eggs at times. It's hard to believe right now, there are people that wanted us to play a harder non-conference schedule. These guys would all be on IVs by now, and not just DJ. This is plenty tough enough for my taste.
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Stop already! The season is not over and it has already had enjoyable moments. We beat Notre Dame and Wisconsin. I have enjoyed the play of the three guards, Wes, Jerel and Dominic as well as Lazard ,Barro.and the other contributors. It should be fun to be a fan.
Enjoy the high points and understand the low points as a time when the kids were not at their best. This is a high time at Marquette as I see it. Crean is a positive recruiter and a good coach. Do you people remember the lean years? Do you see what is happening at St. Johns. Enjoy basketball for basketball. We will one day be a domonant team perhaps this year. Ring on Ahoya.
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When I inquired about season tix in fall '05, a student ticket agent told me MU had the 4th rated class nationally - no lie! Either some service had them 4? or it was another PR stunt by Crean and the Athletic Dept ala "new attendance record in the state of WI" for the 10th time in 3 years.
Yep, Crean was behind that for sure. It actually may have been Crean posing as a student manning the phone....conspiracy surrounds this program.
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Agreed, every year we are told about the outstanding class we have coming, but it consists of 3 stars and less, while Madison gets multiple 4 stars (albeit mostly haybalers). DJ was the only consensus top 100 in that class, but McNeal's stock rose greatly right at the end, and some had Wes pretty high.
I was going to remain out, but this post has to be corrected.
Wes, DJ and McNeal were all CONSENSUS top 100 players.
http://home.nc.rr.com/rsci/RSCI_100_Final_2005.htm
Trevor just missed out on being consensus (one service had him outside the top 100)
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When I inquired about season tix in fall '05, a student ticket agent told me MU had the 4th rated class nationally - no lie! Either some service had them 4? or it was another PR stunt by Crean and the Athletic Dept ala "new attendance record in the state of WI" for the 10th time in 3 years.
::)
All depends on which service you use. They were rated 9th best class by RSCI that year which adds the services together
http://home.nc.rr.com/rsci/The_Winners/2005_Winners/2005_winners.html
Some individual services had the class higher and some lower.
Hoop Scoop had them 10th
Is it a leap of faith that someone had them at 4th? Really? I think you're reaching...plenty to criticize, this isn't one of them.
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Shocking that once again you have your facts wrong. James was never a fallback plan. The goal was James and Frasor, not Frasor instead of James. And he got James over MSU, OSU, ND, Indiana and Iowa. The kid didn't come here because he had no other options.
I'm going to nit-pick this without seeing the 3rd page of posts...
he wasn't offered by Notre Dame or Indiana. that was a huge story his freshman yr and why many people called for Mike Davis to be fired from Indiana. they didn't go after him. a response in another thread said they thought Matt Painter of Purdue make an offer, but they didn't think it was valient effort.
I've stated this in 3? other threads, name one big name recruit Crean has gotten and had to work for???
and remember, D. Wade was offered only by MU, DePaul, and IL State because of awful grades.
i'm talking about him pulling a Rick Barnes and going into ACC country to get Kevin Durant to go to Texas. or Thad Matta going into the heart of Indiana high school basketball and getting the most sought after center in years to go to Ohio State, which had been riddled with scandle and was seen as a Big Ten mid-low pack team.
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....Listen, I'm disappointed that we're 6-4 in the BE. But, this conference is brutal. Freakin' South Florida is hanging around against Georgetown tonight. If you put together the old CUSA right now, we'd beat everyone but Louisville and Memphis. However, the Big East is no CUSA. It's brutal, guys. There's about 12 above-average teams in this league. Play at Cincinnati on a Saturday morning and at home 48 hours later against Louisville. That's the hardest stretch we'd ever, ever have a few years ago. Now, it's the norm. Thursday night game on national tv against UL...then go to UCONN for a Sunday matinee. Good God.
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i agree with your post. my problem is TC hasn't built a team that can be top team in the conference. they may flirt with being an elite team in the conference, but does anyone seriously believe this team can be at the top of the Big East and then make a run through the tournament (and i mean did anyone think this 6 months ago, not after this downfall??) i thought they'd be good, but 1st or 2nd in the Big East, nope. a serious Final Four contender, nope. it's not that their players aren't talent, but the team lacks the right talent to compete. it took Duke shooting lights-out from the 3 to beat a depleted UNC team. MU would have to have games just like Duke, but every single night to be a true contender.
you can't except any team to go through a season without have some off days. the great ones, NCAA title worthy teams, are able to overcome them to still win. Marquette has proven they don't have those pieces to be able to change their game when it goes bad. just look at the starters, 3 of them are undersized and poor-decent shooting ability. there is no post game from the big guys who are outmatched every game by centers and power forwards who excell at that position. and our best player is being asked to play out of postition, and in turn becomes grossly undersized and overmatched.
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I do believe Crean is a great recruiter. He is recruiting for a school that is not going to get the high profile recruits that a Kansas, North Carolina, Duke, UCLA, Louisville, etc are going to get. MU is also not going to admit recruits that do not fit in academically or socially. Look at this year's class. He had some very big disappointments in losing his primary targets, but still came up with a very good class. Now he has managed to assemble an unbalanced team, but remember 6 months ago he expected to have Mbakwe and Saunders on this team. Both of those players would have added a lot of athleticism to our front line.
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Shocking that once again you have your facts wrong. James was never a fallback plan. The goal was James and Frasor, not Frasor instead of James. And he got James over MSU, OSU, ND, Indiana and Iowa. The kid didn't come here because he had no other options.
I'm going to nit-pick this without seeing the 3rd page of posts...
he wasn't offered by Notre Dame or Indiana. that was a huge story his freshman yr and why many people called for Mike Davis to be fired from Indiana. they didn't go after him. a response in another thread said they thought Matt Painter of Purdue make an offer, but they didn't think it was valient effort.
I've stated this in 3? other threads, name one big name recruit Crean has gotten and had to work for???
and remember, D. Wade was offered only by MU, DePaul, and IL State because of awful grades.
i'm talking about him pulling a Rick Barnes and going into ACC country to get Kevin Durant to go to Texas. or Thad Matta going into the heart of Indiana high school basketball and getting the most sought after center in years to go to Ohio State, which had been riddled with scandle and was seen as a Big Ten mid-low pack team.
He was offered by both Notre Dame and Indiana. Notre Dame pulled the offer after he refused to commit early and ended up signing Kyle mcIlarney. Indiana came in at the last minute with an offer. That was why it was such bs when everyone blamed Davis for not offering him. Davis had extended the offer but by that time it was too late.
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Shocking that once again you have your facts wrong. James was never a fallback plan. The goal was James and Frasor, not Frasor instead of James. And he got James over MSU, OSU, ND, Indiana and Iowa. The kid didn't come here because he had no other options.
I'm going to nit-pick this without seeing the 3rd page of posts...
he wasn't offered by Notre Dame or Indiana. that was a huge story his freshman yr and why many people called for Mike Davis to be fired from Indiana. they didn't go after him. a response in another thread said they thought Matt Painter of Purdue make an offer, but they didn't think it was valient effort.
I've stated this in 3? other threads, name one big name recruit Crean has gotten and had to work for???
and remember, D. Wade was offered only by MU, DePaul, and IL State because of awful grades.
i'm talking about him pulling a Rick Barnes and going into ACC country to get Kevin Durant to go to Texas. or Thad Matta going into the heart of Indiana high school basketball and getting the most sought after center in years to go to Ohio State, which had been riddled with scandle and was seen as a Big Ten mid-low pack team.
I'll tell you what muPARTY, show me the last MU coach that has done that in the last 25 years and you might have a case.
But if you must, Steve Novak was offered by Illinois and Florida, he chose MU.
There's one but he didn't "go into another territory" to find him. Mbakwe was offered by several Big Ten schools, including his own state school....Crean took him out of there.
Tyshawn Taylor...offered by Kansas, Georgia Tech, North Carolina, Missouri, Virginia, St. John's, Cincinnati, West Virginia and Virginia Tech....signed with Marquette.
Nick Williams from Alabama....MU goes into SEC country and grabs this kid away from Auburn and Alabama who were still trying to get him out of his verbal only a few weeks before signing period.
I could go on
Get your story correct...Wade's grades weren't awful, he had issues with his test scores.
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Watching Duke play last night reminded me of the style MU plays. One big difference, they can knock it down from 3. Crean needs to recruit or develop those type of players or change his free lance system. Everyone complains about results and individual players, but the wrong players are asked to play in the wrong system and that is the root of the problem. Relying on transition baskets and penetration by undersized players is not offense. Our guys have to work so much harder for good looks as the style of offense allows the defense to so often maintain good postion in half court sets.
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Watching Duke play last night reminded me of the style MU plays. One big difference, they can knock it down from 3. Crean needs to recruit or develop those type of players or change his free lance system. Everyone complains about results and individual players, but the wrong players are asked to play in the wrong system and that is the root of the problem. Relying on transition baskets and penetration by undersized players is not offense. Our guys have to work so much harder for good looks as the style of offense allows the defense to so often maintain good postion in half court sets.
Agreed, then again this was the Duke team we were down 1 possession to with 15 seconds to play....we can play and beat anyone. Same players, same coaching staff.
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Good points. I also think Duke is playing leaps and bounds better than they were in November.
Paulus is a hugely improved player -- and not just because he had a career shooting night last night. I thought he was a complete bust as a freshman. Somebody on that staff is doing something right with him.
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I look forward to reading hysterical responses to SilverWarrior's contention on the Lonely Hearts board that our talent is not as good as advertised.
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=415#s=415&f=2850&t=2017678 (http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=415#s=415&f=2850&t=2017678)
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No thanks, that would require me to visit that board, cause sponsors to be seen, etc. I hear they do a terrific job, but I'll take a pass. ;)
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Rican. But, its not because I think they do a terrific job. I like Silver, but, the board has an agenda that borders on gestapo censorship.
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Rican. But, its not because I think they do a terrific job. I like Silver, but, the board has an agenda that borders on gestapo censorship.
I know that...I've been banned by that board for over a year! I do read stuff over there, though...particularly NateDogg's stuff.
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proudly. Afterall, this is a country of the free and the brave.
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ask duke and wisconsin about Marquette not having talent.
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doesn't it come down to seriously just having a decent big man?
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I think only bilsu hit it right on this topic. I think people have some nice warm, fuzzy blinders on about Marquette as a school and its location. Love the school, love Milwaukee. Unfortunately, I'd say only about 25% of the population west of the Mississippi know Marquette is a college, not just a town in the UP. Whereas, they know every other college listed in this thread.
MU is a small, private university in Milwaukee. Milwaukee. Brand new to the Big East (not the ACC, not the Big Ten...). Crean is working from a serious point of disadvantage and the fact that MU even tastes the NCAA's at all is awesome.
And yes, he needs to land a big man one of these days.
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well said warrior...but the bigeast is the ACC and BIG ten though, in the same class though at least, right?
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I think only bilsu hit it right on this topic. I think people have some nice warm, fuzzy blinders on about Marquette as a school and its location. Love the school, love Milwaukee. Unfortunately, I'd say only about 25% of the population west of the Mississippi know Marquette is a college, not just a town in the UP. Whereas, they know every other college listed in this thread.
MU is a small, private university in Milwaukee. Milwaukee. Brand new to the Big East (not the ACC, not the Big Ten...). Crean is working from a serious point of disadvantage and the fact that MU even tastes the NCAA's at all is awesome.
And yes, he needs to land a big man one of these days.
Why do we even field a basketball team? We seem to have no chance to succeed.
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I'll tell you what muPARTY, show me the last MU coach that has done that in the last 25 years and you might have a case.
you say that, but then i read all over these boards and hear from feloow fans, how great Tom Crean is and would you rather go back to Deane, O'neil, ect. except one appearence in the Final Four, there hasn't been much seperation. i'm just saying, if he's talked about as being the best since Al and Hank, then he should be held to a higher standard than the other other MU coaches the past 25yrs. and as you said there hasn't been an MU coach to go out and do that, so he hasn't
But if you must, Steve Novak was offered by Illinois and Florida, he chose MU.
There's one but he didn't "go into another territory" to find him. Mbakwe was offered by several Big Ten schools, including his own state school....Crean took him out of there.
Tyshawn Taylor...offered by Kansas, Georgia Tech, North Carolina, Missouri, Virginia, St. John's, Cincinnati, West Virginia and Virginia Tech....signed with Marquette.
Nick Williams from Alabama....MU goes into SEC country and grabs this kid away from Auburn and Alabama who were still trying to get him out of his verbal only a few weeks before signing period.
I could go on
I never said he never recruited talent. as a D-1 coach who makes $1.6+mil a yr one would hope he would get talent. i was addressing how people claim recruits like Wade and James as big profile recruits because of what they achieved after getting to school. i was addressing, that they weren't the highly sought players coming out of high school.
and while he did go and get Williams, Taylor, Mbakwe, how does that address MU's needs? Williams and Taylor, 2 more guards? next yrs lineup has:
5'11 james
6'2 mcneal
6'4 Matthews
5'7 acker
6'0 cubillan
6'3 Chirstopherson
6'3 Taylor
6'3 willaims
Lazar is 6'6, hazel is 6'7, burke is 6'8, and mbakwe is 6'7
where is the going into other regions and getting the big post player that Marquette has so sorely needed and he has never...neeeeeeeeverrrr recruit?
Get your story correct...Wade's grades weren't awful, he had issues with his test scores.
wow, how i could be so wrong. sorry i used a little hyperbole. fact of the matter is, his academics led him to only be recruited by 2 Conference-USA schools (MU and depaul) and a Valley school (Illinois St). not exactly the cream of the crop now is it?
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He was offered by both Notre Dame and Indiana. Notre Dame pulled the offer after he refused to commit early and ended up signing Kyle mcIlarney. Indiana came in at the last minute with an offer. That was why it was such bs when everyone blamed Davis for not offering him. Davis had extended the offer but by that time it was too late.
so Tom Crean had to compete with a Notre Dame that didn't exist anymore and with an Indiana offer that came too late?
i'll stipulate to him getting the offers (based on your word) but when James was ready to chose a school to play at, Notre Dame didn't extend an offer and Indiana came when it was too late. so hence when it mattered, neither school offered him a scholarship.
(sorry, i've having a hard time transfering my thoughts into words, a lot on my mind.)
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I'll tell you what muPARTY, show me the last MU coach that has done that in the last 25 years and you might have a case.
you say that, but then i read all over these boards and hear from feloow fans, how great Tom Crean is and would you rather go back to Deane, O'neil, ect. except one appearence in the Final Four, there hasn't been much seperation. i'm just saying, if he's talked about as being the best since Al and Hank, then he should be held to a higher standard than the other other MU coaches the past 25yrs. and as you said there hasn't been an MU coach to go out and do that, so he hasn't
Well, here's where we disagree. First, there are a ton of good coaches out there, I'm not saying another one couldn't do better or worse. It comes down to expectations and reality for me.
Now, as for the past 25 years, I don't see it the way you do. You say there hasn't been much separation between those guys. I beg to differ.
First, Crean has had 0 losing seasons.
O'Neill and Deane both had losing seasons
Advantage Crean
Crean did take a team to the Final Four. People can crap on that accomplishment if they want, I don't. Small non-football schools don't make it there very regularly.
KO took a team to the Sweet 16, Deane got a team to the round of 32
Advantage Crean
KO looked to get out after 4 years and did leave his 5th year
Deane looked to get out after 3 years and was asked to leave in his 5th year
I have no doubt Crean has looked as well, but he's still here in his 9th year...first coach to do that at MU in decades.
KO got to coach in the MCC and the Great Midwest
Deane got to coachin the Great Midwest and CUSA
Crean got to coach in CUSA and the Big East
Who had it toughest yet despite that, still has had the best results?
Advantage Crean
But if you must, Steve Novak was offered by Illinois and Florida, he chose MU.
There's one but he didn't "go into another territory" to find him. Mbakwe was offered by several Big Ten schools, including his own state school....Crean took him out of there.
Tyshawn Taylor...offered by Kansas, Georgia Tech, North Carolina, Missouri, Virginia, St. John's, Cincinnati, West Virginia and Virginia Tech....signed with Marquette.
Nick Williams from Alabama....MU goes into SEC country and grabs this kid away from Auburn and Alabama who were still trying to get him out of his verbal only a few weeks before signing period.
I could go on
I never said he never recruited talent. as a D-1 coach who makes $1.6+mil a yr one would hope he would get talent. i was addressing how people claim recruits like Wade and James as big profile recruits because of what they achieved after getting to school. i was addressing, that they weren't the highly sought players coming out of high school.
and while he did go and get Williams, Taylor, Mbakwe, how does that address MU's needs? Williams and Taylor, 2 more guards? next yrs lineup has:
5'11 james
6'2 mcneal
6'4 Matthews
5'7 acker
6'0 cubillan
6'3 Chirstopherson
6'3 Taylor
6'3 willaims
Lazar is 6'6, hazel is 6'7, burke is 6'8, and mbakwe is 6'7
where is the going into other regions and getting the big post player that Marquette has so sorely needed and he has never...neeeeeeeeverrrr recruit?
Steve Novak wasn't highly regarded out of high school? Matthews? James? McNeal? Etc. Are you being serious?
As for the post players, hey he has gone after a lot of them and he hasn't landed them. You're right, though next year we have a few bigs coming in. I think when you have a chance to land a Taylor, you take it. James is likely gone this year, so you take a stud PG if he is available.
Get your story correct...Wade's grades weren't awful, he had issues with his test scores.
wow, how i could be so wrong. sorry i used a little hyperbole. fact of the matter is, his academics led him to only be recruited by 2 Conference-USA schools (MU and depaul) and a Valley school (Illinois St). not exactly the cream of the crop now is it?
Nope, not the cream of the crop but glad he had the foresight to recruit him....don't you? I mean, we could be saying something like..."here's this kid in our backyard that turned out to be a total stud and we didn't take a chance". But we did take a chance and it worked out great. I have one of my best friends as an AD at a school in the midwest, and we talked a few times about who he lets his coaches go after. He will let his coaches go after a kid with questionable grades or scores on one condition....character. He has to be a high character kid. That's the cut off. I think this is what Crean did in this case.
For whatever reason, an awful lot of people sure want to hold that against him.
As I mentioned a few days ago, it's been since 1979-80 since the last time MU went to three straight NCAA tournaments. Not Majerus, not Dukiet, not KO, not Deane. If we make it this year, we will have done it...without Dwyane Wade and while playing in the monster Big East.
I'm sorry, I don't see that as something that is WRONG with the program. I see that as an incredible opportunity and an accomplishment that hasn't been seen by an awful lot of people here.
Finally, I don't think people here are saying he's God's gift or the best recruiter around. The question for me becomes how is he doing in relative terms. At age 40, perhaps on the brink of a 3rd straight NCAA appearance...I see that as a good thing. Recruiting to a Catholic school in the Midwest, not as easy as recruiting to a state school in the sunbelt...he could do better in some areas, I think he will (Mbakwe was a start and more on the way).
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Unfortunately, I'd say only about 25% of the population west of the Mississippi know Marquette is a college, not just a town in the UP. Whereas, they know every other college listed in this thread.
Actually they do know that Marquette is a college. They just think it's located in the UP.