Marquette under Wojo has now lost the next high-major game they played all 4 times they beat a top-15 team according to kenpom (at the time of the game):
- Jan. 24, 2017 -- #3 Villanova: After the victory, Marquette lost to Providence and four of their next five games.
- Dec. 8, 2018 -- #12 Wisconsin: Marquette beat Bucky in OT, then lost their next high-major game at St. John's; they did beat a ranked Buffalo team, but that one was of three buy games they won in that span.
- Nov. 13, 2019 -- #9 Purdue: Marquette rallied from an 18-point deficit to beat the Boilermakers, then promptly went out and were drubbed by Bucky.
- Dec. 4, 2020 -- #7 Wisconsin: Justin Lewis got the tip-in winner, but after the GB win, Marquette lost to their next HM opponent, UCLA.
- Dec. 14, 2020 -- #11 Creighton: Marquette beat two top-15 teams in 10 days, and followed this one with a loss to Seton Hall.
Why can this staff not sustain success? The closest they came was 2019, but that was an incredibly down year for the Big East. Aren't these games they should be winning? Why is it every time we get a massive win, a massive lift, we follow it up by puking all over our shoes?
What about Providence w/ Ellenson?
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 17, 2020, 10:24:40 PM
Marquette under Wojo has now lost the next high-major game they played all 4 times they beat a top-15 team according to kenpom (at the time of the game):
- Jan. 24, 2017 -- #3 Villanova: After the victory, Marquette lost to Providence and four of their next five games.
- Dec. 8, 2018 -- #12 Wisconsin: Marquette beat Bucky in OT, then lost their next high-major game at St. John's; they did beat a ranked Buffalo team, but that one was of three buy games they won in that span.
- Nov. 13, 2019 -- #9 Purdue: Marquette rallied from an 18-point deficit to beat the Boilermakers, then promptly went out and were drubbed by Bucky.
- Dec. 4, 2020 -- #7 Wisconsin: Justin Lewis got the tip-in winner, but after the GB win, Marquette lost to their next HM opponent, UCLA.
- Dec. 14, 2020 -- #11 Creighton: Marquette beat two top-15 teams in 10 days, and followed this one with a loss to Seton Hall.
Why can this staff not sustain success? The closest they came was 2019, but that was an incredibly down year for the Big East. Aren't these games they should be winning? Why is it every time we get a massive win, a massive lift, we follow it up by puking all over our shoes?
This one doesn't bother me that much. No doubt an incredibly frustrating game, but hung around and battled back despite off nights for a few guys. Didn't seem like coaching was the problem.
Yeah I was kind of thinking this was how the game was going to look. Ugly. Physical. Against an experienced team.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 17, 2020, 10:26:51 PM
What about Providence w/ Ellenson?
Ranked #33 in kenpom at the time of the game. Finished the season #44. They were massively overranked in the polls because they beat up on a terrible non-con schedule and pulled off one quality win against Arizona.
That Purdue team Marquette beat also ended up being pretty mediocre.
Didn't we just lose to a team that was preseason ranked above us with a likely POY candidate?
This team is ahead of where I thought they'd be.
Relax
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 17, 2020, 10:36:09 PM
Didn't we just lose to a team that was preseason ranked above us with a likely POY candidate?
This team is ahead of where I thought they'd be.
Relax
If this was a one-time thing, I'd be inclined to agree. This is meant to point out the staff has failed to sustain success on the heels of their big wins. Once is chance, twice is coincidence, five times is pretty clearly more than that.
Wojo is able to get his guys up for the big one, but his lack of any sort of program identity hinders his teams from growing after big wins. They're a chameleon team and very easy to game plan for.
I don't get why Wojo doesn't tell the guys to make the layups and wide open threes. He really let us down tonight. Poor coaching
Quote from: LoudMouth on December 17, 2020, 10:48:18 PM
I don't get why Wojo doesn't tell the guys to make the layups and wide open threes. He really let us down tonight. Poor coaching
The way we lose year after year is remarkably consistent. Turnovers and not being able to stop people. It's tough for me to write off as youth when it's the same stuff an experienced Wojo team does.
Quote from: LoudMouth on December 17, 2020, 10:48:18 PM
I don't get why Wojo doesn't tell the guys to make the layups and wide open threes. He really let us down tonight. Poor coaching
Or the offensive sets which are so predictable that they lead to turnovers 20% of possessions...
MU ranks 212th in Tuurnovers per game. :'(
Quote from: Johnny B on December 17, 2020, 10:56:52 PM
MU ranks 212th in Tuurnovers per game. :'(
Wojo doesn't care. If he did they'd improve. But year after year, it's a recurring issue. And so many unforced, just plain sloppy. Wojo needs to light these guys a$$ up, but it's just a blank stare after they happen. So what's the message to the players? It's ok to give possessions away. They're almost never yanked because of a turnover either. No consequence to it happening
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 17, 2020, 11:03:36 PM
Wojo doesn't care. If he did they'd improve. But year after year, it's a recurring issue. And so many unforced, just plain sloppy. Wojo needs to light these guys a$$ up, but it's just a blank stare after they happen. So what's the message to the players? It's ok to give possessions away. They're almost never yanked because of a turnover either. No consequence to it happening
Maybe he should pop more balloons
Quote from: LoudMouth on December 17, 2020, 10:48:18 PM
I don't get why Wojo doesn't tell the guys to make the layups and wide open threes. He really let us down tonight. Poor coaching
The turnovers, the wide open looks, and the inefficient player rotations are year-over-year problems. So yes, it's poor coaching.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 17, 2020, 10:36:09 PM
Didn't we just lose to a team that was preseason ranked above us with a likely POY candidate?
This team is ahead of where I thought they'd be.
Relax
With this specific team, I agree. This year in isolation I think Wojo has done a fine job. The turnovers being an issue for the 3rd consecutive year is a concern, though.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 17, 2020, 11:05:57 PM
The turnovers, the wide open looks, and the inefficient player rotations are year-over-year problems. So yes, it's poor coaching.
I wouldn't say turnovers have been a year-over-year problem. While they certainly weren't a strength last year, they weren't a weakness. We had a TO% of 18.6% which was ranked 176th or right in the middle of Division 1. It just seemed like we had an absurd amount of turnovers because we played at such a high tempo. The year before that they were a problem, but the two years before that we were top 100 in TO%.
I don't know how to compare how many wide-open looks we give up to other teams numbers wise, but from my personal eye test, I think we give up less than most. The difference is that wehn we do give up wide open shots, they are three pointers instead of layups. Wojo's defense this season values protecting the paint and we have a tendency to give up the corner three. I think this is mostly freshmen not understanding how to double and cut off passing lanes at the same time. Coaches need to work on that.
Inefficient player rotations were a problem last season. I'm not convinced they are a problem this season.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 17, 2020, 10:37:50 PM
If this was a one-time thing, I'd be inclined to agree. This is meant to point out the staff has failed to sustain success on the heels of their big wins. Once is chance, twice is coincidence, five times is pretty clearly more than that.
Didn't we just beat a top 10 team 2 games after beating a top 10 team? Sure seems like that's what happened
Look, I fully acknowledge the flaws in this team this year.. But they're still playing well and playing better than I thought to this point
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 18, 2020, 12:16:40 AM
I wouldn't say turnovers have been a year-over-year problem. While they certainly weren't a strength last year, they weren't a weakness. We had a TO% of 18.6% which was ranked 176th or right in the middle of Division 1. It just seemed like we had an absurd amount of turnovers because we played at such a high tempo. The year before that they were a problem, but the two years before that we were top 100 in TO%.
I disagree. Here are our turnover rankings in Big East play:
2015: 10th
2016: 9th
2017: 4th
2018: 7th
2019: 7th
2020: 6th
2021: 6th (out of 7 teams)
So we've been in the bottom half of the league in turnovers (including this year) 6/7 seasons under Wojo. That's a year-over-year problem.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 18, 2020, 12:16:40 AMI don't know how to compare how many wide-open looks we give up to other teams numbers wise, but from my personal eye test, I think we give up less than most. The difference is that wehn we do give up wide open shots, they are three pointers instead of layups. Wojo's defense this season values protecting the paint and we have a tendency to give up the corner three. I think this is mostly freshmen not understanding how to double and cut off passing lanes at the same time. Coaches need to work on that.
The last point is what stands out, and why I have so little faith in this staff. Look at the rather scathing Athletic article that Marquette clearly granted access to.
"This defensive mindset that Coach has been trying to inspire guys to have the last few years is finally starting to (translate) to how we play and how we show up on a nightly basis," John says. Seriously? They are just starting to do what the coaches have asked after FOUR YEARS in the program? So what, we should start looking ahead to the 2022-23 or 2023-24 seasons as the ones where we finally break through, assuming everyone sticks around that long?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 18, 2020, 12:16:40 AMInefficient player rotations were a problem last season. I'm not convinced they are a problem this season.
In our last two losses, we saw Justin nailed to the bench against UCLA for the last 9 minutes when he was our most efficient offensive player on the night, whereas last night it was Theo who couldn't get back out there at the end even though he had been doing very well against the SHU bigs (Lewis out there in the final minute with a 31.3 eFG% on the night while Theo was on the bench at 72.2).
For me, we are at the "show me" point with this coaching staff. I'm not going to believe because they pound on cupcakes or even get 1-2 big wins. Show us you can string wins together. Show us you can compete every night. Last night we got outplayed, outworked at home for the better part of 35 minutes before trying to eke out a win with five minutes of effort. We were lucky to even be in that game last night considering how badly we were outplayed from the opening tip.
I'm not going to automatically believe in some mythical defensive improvement when I see the same slow rotations, inadequate efforts to contest shots (the hand-waving in the vague direction of the opponent's chest as they reach the peak of their jump is infuriating), and repeated wide open outside looks. Some of those turnovers, we may as well have put the ball down at half-court for them considering how easy we made it to take it away. And in crunch time, we're watching Wojo ride the cold hand in real time.
For 5-1/2 years, I tried to put faith in this staff. While they showed the occasional flash of inspiration, they could never sustain that. We have seen our program fall from being consistently considered one of the top-20 programs in the country to...what...maybe top-50? Maybe? Yeah, the Wisconsin win was nice, but we followed it up with two lackluster efforts. The entire second half of the Creighton game felt like we were lucky to be ahead as they missed the wide open shots they had been making in the first half but they just happened to run out of time.
I like this team. I like the players. I like the pieces. But I'm wholly uninspired when it comes to expectations because we've repeatedly seen the inability to string together results. I mean...we sometimes wax nostalgic about that 2019 team, but they had exactly one top-50 win in Big East play and still managed to lose the worst league since realignment. I want to get excited, but when I keep seeing the same mistakes in the same clothing, it's tough.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 17, 2020, 10:24:40 PM
Marquette under Wojo has now lost the next high-major game they played all 4 times they beat a top-15 team according to kenpom (at the time of the game):
- Jan. 24, 2017 -- #3 Villanova: After the victory, Marquette lost to Providence and four of their next five games.
- Dec. 8, 2018 -- #12 Wisconsin: Marquette beat Bucky in OT, then lost their next high-major game at St. John's; they did beat a ranked Buffalo team, but that one was of three buy games they won in that span.
- Nov. 13, 2019 -- #9 Purdue: Marquette rallied from an 18-point deficit to beat the Boilermakers, then promptly went out and were drubbed by Bucky.
- Dec. 4, 2020 -- #7 Wisconsin: Justin Lewis got the tip-in winner, but after the GB win, Marquette lost to their next HM opponent, UCLA.
- Dec. 14, 2020 -- #11 Creighton: Marquette beat two top-15 teams in 10 days, and followed this one with a loss to Seton Hall.
Why can this staff not sustain success? The closest they came was 2019, but that was an incredibly down year for the Big East. Aren't these games they should be winning? Why is it every time we get a massive win, a massive lift, we follow it up by puking all over our shoes?
Your opinions are your opinions, and I'm not going to try to change them. Your response to TAMU clearly shows your frustration, which comes out of your love for Marquette hoops as well as your correct observations about the program's failings under Wojo. I am on board with many if not most of those thoughts.
However, I don't think this OP really proves much -- your later comments, especially the response to TAMU, makes your point a lot better.
The OP does a lot of cherry-picking. For example, in 2018, they DID beat a very highly regarded (and ranked) Buffalo team that many thought would get to the S16 or beyond; it shouldn't be dismissed as casually as you dismissed it. They also won 15 of their next 17 games. I think all of us would take 15-2 any time as a "response" to a big win over Madison. To claim what they did after Madison was somehow less than good wasn't one of the stronger points of your Scoop career.
Yes, we lost at Madison after Purdue; we also then won 9 of our next 11, including very good wins over USC, Kansas State and Nova.
And finally, after beating Madison this year, we beat a bunny, lost a road game to a very good UCLA team and then scored an impressive road win over Creighton. I don't think that shows the post-Madison response to be wanting. Again, I think looking at only a one-game sample really doesn't say much about Wojo or anything else; the points you made to TAMU were much stronger.
Heck, there are many who would argue that how a team responds to a big loss is a better barometer of a coach's effectiveness. Maybe Wojo sucks in that regard; I'm too lazy to do the research looking at his entire career. This season, though, I'm certainly happy with the responses after OSU and UCLA ... last season, I was happy with the response after Madison ... and in 2018-19, I was overjoyed with the response after Kansas (but definitely not overjoyed that we couldn't avoid the losing streaks at the end of the last two seasons). By saying all that, I of course am guilty of a little cherry-picking, too.
But I get it. You're frustrated and disappointed and rightly so, and the OP was your way to get into your point -- a point you made very well later in this comment stream.
We Are Marquette!
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 18, 2020, 06:16:32 AM
Look at the rather scathing Athletic article that Marquette clearly granted access to. "This defensive mindset that Coach has been trying to inspire guys to have the last few years is finally starting to (translate) to how we play and how we show up on a nightly basis," John says. Seriously? They are just starting to do what the coaches have asked after FOUR YEARS in the program?
This is an alarming indictment. Solid coaches do not have issues and need years for their players to buy in!! Thank you Theo for pointing out the utter incompetence you've been playing under even though his intent was the opposite.
All the excuses for last nights loss, refs, youth, etc. are just that. As Brew has pointed out and supported very well, it is the same issues year after year after year under Wojo. The team make up doesn't matter. It is so clearly problems at the top in execution of many basic things that continue plague this program.
A change is needed so badly.
'17 was bad and has been beaten to death here.
'18, K-State and Buff might not have been kenpom top 15 teams, but there were good teams and iirc ended up being Q1 wins (if we're setting arbitrary cut off points, why not go with the one that the committee uses?)
'19 losing to bucky always hurts, but losing first true road game is not just an MU problem.
'20 first true road game again, plus a bad frustrating loss.
Consistency is a problem, yes, but I think it may be slightly overblown here. If it's back-to-back games like '17 and last night, motivation can be pointed out as a problem, but when the games are three weeks apart (beat bucky Dec 8th 2018, lose to StJ Jan 1st 2019), I think you may be stretching a bit.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 17, 2020, 10:24:40 PM
Marquette under Wojo has now lost the next high-major game they played all 4 times they beat a top-15 team according to kenpom (at the time of the game):
- Jan. 24, 2017 -- #3 Villanova: After the victory, Marquette lost to Providence and four of their next five games.
- Dec. 8, 2018 -- #12 Wisconsin: Marquette beat Bucky in OT, then lost their next high-major game at St. John's; they did beat a ranked Buffalo team, but that one was of three buy games they won in that span.
- Nov. 13, 2019 -- #9 Purdue: Marquette rallied from an 18-point deficit to beat the Boilermakers, then promptly went out and were drubbed by Bucky.
- Dec. 4, 2020 -- #7 Wisconsin: Justin Lewis got the tip-in winner, but after the GB win, Marquette lost to their next HM opponent, UCLA.
- Dec. 14, 2020 -- #11 Creighton: Marquette beat two top-15 teams in 10 days, and followed this one with a loss to Seton Hall.
Why can this staff not sustain success? The closest they came was 2019, but that was an incredibly down year for the Big East. Aren't these games they should be winning? Why is it every time we get a massive win, a massive lift, we follow it up by puking all over our shoes?
You can better understand a poster's bias when you do some digging into their posts, and this is a good example.
1 - Upset then #1 Villanova. Next game they do lose to Providence. By 1 point.
2 - Beat #12 Bucky. The "lose their next high major game". Hmmm. That "next high major game" came 24 days later against SJU. And by the way, in between those games, you know, where we didn't keep any momentum? We won 3 games including a drubbing of then #12 Buffalo. So two wins vs. #12 teams.
3 - Beating Bucky this year and then going out west for our first road game and losing by 9 to UCLA.
4 - Beating Creighton this year and losing by 7 to SHU.
So I don't know what you mean by "puking all over ourselves" but the examples you gave clearly aren't good ones at all. Yes, we would like the team to be able to put a string of big wins together (and you omitted and example of where they did), but your point isn't valid based off your examples.
Quote from: MU82 on December 18, 2020, 06:48:40 AMBut I get it. You're frustrated and disappointed and rightly so, and the OP was your way to get into your point -- a point you made very well later in this comment stream.
We Are Marquette!
The OP was mostly to refer to how we always seem to have a quick come-down after we get the big win. After this week's win over Creighton, yesterday felt inevitable, even though we were at home, with momentum, and have arguably the better talent.
I also feel we spend as much time making excuses such as "we're young" when it's really not true. Our rotation includes three senior starters with 13 years of D1 experience & 10 in the program. We have two guards, one redshirt junior & one sophomore, that spent their entire careers here.
We really only have three newcomers, two of whom came in as top-40 recruits. Per kenpom, our experience is #179 & minute continuity is #161, so right around the middle of the pack, not where we were years ago when the "young" excuse was apt.
But yes, it's disappointment and frustration because we keep seeing this narrative play out and I'm also tired of the Cubs-fanesque way we try to convince ourselves this time will be different or how much better we'll be in a year or two when we've seen no tangible evidence that this staff is capable of making either of those things a reality.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on December 18, 2020, 08:49:38 AM
You can better understand a poster's bias when you do some digging into their posts, and this is a good example.
1 - Upset then #1 Villanova. Next game they do lose to Providence. By 1 point.
A team we had never lost to at home and were clearly better than. That was a bad loss.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on December 18, 2020, 08:49:38 AM2 - Beat #12 Bucky. The "lose their next high major game". Hmmm. That "next high major game" came 24 days later against SJU. And by the way, in between those games, you know, where we didn't keep any momentum? We won 3 games including a drubbing of then #12 Buffalo. So two wins vs. #12 teams.
Media rankings rarely reflect actual team quality. Buffalo wasn't ranked that highly in kenpom and was ranked #12 because they beat a massively overrated in the preseason West Virginia team & a mediocre Syracuse team. They were a good mid-major. And this was generally our best response to a big win, but that "best response" was still winning three buy games.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on December 18, 2020, 08:49:38 AM3 - Beating Bucky this year and then going out west for our first road game and losing by 9 to UCLA.
If you're going to build program momentum, those are games you should win. See also...
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on December 18, 2020, 08:49:38 AM4 - Beating Creighton this year and losing by 7 to SHU.
...this game, where we were at home with the talent and momentum advantage, and were clearly outplayed for 35 minutes before realizing "oh maybe we should show up now."
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on December 18, 2020, 08:49:38 AMSo I don't know what you mean by "puking all over ourselves" but the examples you gave clearly aren't good ones at all. Yes, we would like the team to be able to put a string of big wins together (and you omitted and example of where they did), but your point isn't valid based off your examples.
What top-15 kenpom win did we follow with a string of big wins? Because I went through 7 seasons of data to find others. Unless you can provide something that doesn't seem to be there, maybe better just to accept that Wojo's greatest consistency is following his biggest successes with letdowns.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 18, 2020, 09:40:47 AM
The OP was mostly to refer to how we always seem to have a quick come-down after we get the big win. After this week's win over Creighton, yesterday felt inevitable, even though we were at home, with momentum, and have arguably the better talent.
Is this true though? Again, I'm not sure why you picked the arbitrary cut off point of top 15 kenpom, when IMO a more accurate barometer would be the quadrant system that the committee uses. The 18-19 season was brought up. We started that season 0-2 in Q1 games and both were extremely frustrating and way worse than last night IMO. We then rattled off a neutral court win over 23rd ranked kenpom Louisville, 20th ranked kenpom and future B12 champions K-State, 16th ranked kenpom Madison, and 22nd ranked kenpom and 30 game winner Buffalo. A 4-0 stretch of Q1 wins, and there was really about 6 weeks between the 2nd half of Kansas, and StJ where we were playing good, and consistently good ball. How that season ended is another question that has been discussed before, and I'm sure again, but if you are trying to make the argument that we can't get up for consecutive big games, that sstretch is a poor example IMO.
Quote from: Its DJOver on December 18, 2020, 09:49:45 AM
Is this true though? Again, I'm not sure why you picked the arbitrary cut off point of top 15 kenpom, when IMO a more accurate barometer would be the quadrant system that the committee uses. The 18-19 season was brought up. We started that season 0-2 in Q1 games and both were extremely frustrating and way worse than last night IMO. We then rattled off a neutral court win over 23rd ranked kenpom Louisville, 20th ranked kenpom and future B12 champions K-State, 16th ranked kenpom Madison, and 22nd ranked kenpom and 30 game winner Buffalo. A 4-0 stretch of Q1 wins, and there was really about 6 weeks between the 2nd half of Kansas, and StJ where we were playing good, and consistently good ball. How that season ended is another question that has been discussed before, and I'm sure again, but if you are trying to make the argument that we can't get up for consecutive big games, that sstretch is a poor example IMO.
Because kenpom tells us where those teams were at the time. And using the NCAA metric would require using RPI for more than half the seasons, which is a trash metric. Kenpom is the best tool for a consistent argument. If someone prefers T-Rank or another comparable metric, fine, but I don't think you'll find significantly disparate results.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 18, 2020, 06:16:32 AM
I disagree. Here are our turnover rankings in Big East play:
2015: 10th
2016: 9th
2017: 4th
2018: 7th
2019: 7th
2020: 6th
2021: 6th (out of 7 teams)
So we've been in the bottom half of the league in turnovers (including this year) 6/7 seasons under Wojo. That's a year-over-year problem.
This isn't a bad argument, but it doesn't convince me. One, I honestly don't give a crap about years 1 and 2. Roster was expected to be bad and it was bad. Second, I don't care that much about conference rankings in statistics for the same reason I don't care what place we finish in the conference standings. Conferences are unbalanced, sometimes finishing in 7th in the Big East would mean finishing 3rd in another high-major conference. Looking at our raw numbers, turnovers have been a weakness in 2 seasons, 18-19 and this season (so far). They were meh last season and they were more positives than negatives in 16-17 and 17-18.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 18, 2020, 06:16:32 AM
The last point is what stands out, and why I have so little faith in this staff. Look at the rather scathing Athletic article that Marquette clearly granted access to. "This defensive mindset that Coach has been trying to inspire guys to have the last few years is finally starting to (translate) to how we play and how we show up on a nightly basis," John says. Seriously? They are just starting to do what the coaches have asked after FOUR YEARS in the program? So what, we should start looking ahead to the 2022-23 or 2023-24 seasons as the ones where we finally break through, assuming everyone sticks around that long?
I'm not going to automatically believe in some mythical defensive improvement when I see the same slow rotations, inadequate efforts to contest shots (the hand-waving in the vague direction of the opponent's chest as they reach the peak of their jump is infuriating), and repeated wide open outside looks.
Come on Brew this is weak for you. You are using a quote where a player off handedly uses a cliche in an interview as proof that the coaching staff doesn't know how to teach defense? There is undeniable objective evidence that the staff has made massive defensive improvements over the last three years.
As for the second paragraph here, honestly I think you are seeing us do some of these things 3 or 4 times a game and saying "see it's still a problem" when other teams do those same things 8 or 9 times a game. I think the defense last night was very good...other than when we doubled Mamu in the post. We got burned every time we did that and that was an adjustment that failed to happen.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 18, 2020, 06:16:32 AM
In our last two losses, we saw Justin nailed to the bench against UCLA for the last 9 minutes when he was our most efficient offensive player on the night, whereas last night it was Theo who couldn't get back out there at the end even though he had been doing very well against the SHU bigs (Lewis out there in the final minute with a 31.3 eFG% on the night while Theo was on the bench at 72.2).
And in between those games we saw Wojo ride a red-hot Elliott against Creighton for 32 minutes before wisely sitting an inefficient Elliott against Seton Hall. Maybe you saw something different last season, but my recollection is that Wojo didn't have a problem riding a hot hand last season, it was that he stuck with his main lineup of Howard, McEwen, Anim, Bailey, and John down the stretch when it was clear that it wasn't working. Maybe that will happen this season but we've already seen Wojo make changes to the starting lineup and seen guys minutes fluctuate greatly from game to game. I think it's early in a season with a bunch of new players and little practice time so the staff is still playing with the rotations to see what works best...like every coach in America is doing right now.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 18, 2020, 06:16:32 AM
For me, we are at the "show me" point with this coaching staff. I'm not going to believe because they pound on cupcakes or even get 1-2 big wins. Show us you can string wins together. Show us you can compete every night. Last night we got outplayed, outworked at home for the better part of 35 minutes before trying to eke out a win with five minutes of effort. We were lucky to even be in that game last night considering how badly we were outplayed from the opening tip.
That's your right but I think you need some context for your "show me" expectations. This is a down year, we graduated everybody. We've got one guy in our 8.5 man rotation who has ever averaged more than 21 minutes a game in a full season. Expecting a team with that makeup to be consistent and string big wins together is a tall order in a normal season, let alone this year with limited practice time.
All that being said, I'm in "show me" mode too for the coaching staff. The difference is, I want the coaching staff to show me that they can make a team better than the sum of their parts. So far, I think they have, though only slightly. We will see if that continues. If this team makes the tournament, even if it's in the first four, I will be encouraged. Expectations will raise greatly for next season.
Wojos tenure has always been a bit of a ruined orgasm which extends beyond games that follow a top 15 opponent. A few that come to mind are: the team falling apart days after receiving a #2 pre season ranking, the late season collapses at the end of the last two years after over achieving early, Henry going pro after one season, etc.
Always seems to get some good promising momentum going in the program either on the recruiting trail or on the court only to have it kind of fall apart and not quite get there. So, I understand the frustration of the OP.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 18, 2020, 09:52:38 AM
Because kenpom tells us where those teams were at the time. And using the NCAA metric would require using RPI for more than half the seasons, which is a trash metric. Kenpom is the best tool for a consistent argument. If someone prefers T-Rank or another comparable metric, fine, but I don't think you'll find significantly disparate results.
I'm using kenpom's final numbers from the season, not the in progress number where he has said that they're not as accurate until about 10 games into the season (4 out of the 5 games given as evidence in the OP were from the opening 10 games of the season). We beat 23, 20, 16, and 22 kenpom ranked teams in a row. According to your arbitrary top 15 cut off, that's 1 top 15 win. If you broaden the scope even a little, it is much more impressive.
Edit:
https://kenpom.com/index.php?y=2019
The final (more accurate) numbers actually show us with zero top 15 wins, but 4 top 23 wins in a row. To me, that shows the ability to get up for multiple big games in succession. I'm sure it's not always the case, but to say that we always seem to have a quick come down is a mistake IMO.
Then look at Sam Hauser's comments about how the difference between Marquette and Virginia is that Bennett held players to a different level of accountability. Or how if he wanted to play at Virginia, he had to play defense. Those aren't exactly rousing endorsements of our staff, or should we also going to dismiss the comments of star players who left?
And again, we have 3 seniors starting, two more rotation players with multiple years in the system, and are middle of the pack in experience and minute continuity. This isn't a neophyte squad, we're actually pretty average in that regard.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 18, 2020, 10:03:38 AM
Then look at Sam Hauser's comments about how the difference between Marquette and Virginia is that Bennett held players to a different level of accountability. Or how if he wanted to play at Virginia, he had to play defense. Those aren't exactly rousing endorsements of our staff, or should we also going to dismiss the comments of star players who left?
And again, we have 3 seniors starting, two more rotation players with multiple years in the system, and are middle of the pack in experience and minute continuity. This isn't a neophyte squad, we're actually pretty average in that regard.
So you pluck a random quote from a disgruntled former player to prove your point?
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on December 18, 2020, 10:12:18 AM
So you pluck a random quote from a disgruntled former player to prove your point?
Izzo called Joey one of his toughest players. What changed from MU to MSU?
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 18, 2020, 10:03:38 AM
Then look at Sam Hauser's comments about how the difference between Marquette and Virginia is that Bennett held players to a different level of accountability. Or how if he wanted to play at Virginia, he had to play defense. Those aren't exactly rousing endorsements of our staff, or should we also going to dismiss the comments of star players who left?
And again, we have 3 seniors starting, two more rotation players with multiple years in the system, and are middle of the pack in experience and minute continuity. This isn't a neophyte squad, we're actually pretty average in that regard.
I watch how Izzo is keeping Joey on a tight leash. I hear Sam's quote. My biggest gripe about Wojo was that he coddled the Hauser's too much. He has a tendency to do the Duke star system. And, if the letter story is even close to accurate, my absolute hugest problem with Wojo was that he allowed them to stay on the team.
Defensively, if you have slow forwards and small guards.... there really isn't a good defensive scheme for that.
Quote from: tower912 on December 18, 2020, 10:16:24 AM
I watch how Izzo is keeping Joey on a tight leash. I hear Sam's quote. My biggest gripe about Wojo was that he coddled the Hauser's too much. He has a tendency to do the Duke star system. And, if the letter story is even close to accurate, my absolute hugest problem with Wojo was that he allowed them to stay on the team.
Defensively, if you have slow forwards and small guards.... there really isn't a good defensive scheme for that.
Wojo allowed Markus to go back to Arizona during the summer and train with his family while the rest of the team had to be in Milwaukee. But yeah, he definitely coddled the Hausers.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on December 18, 2020, 10:12:18 AM
So you pluck a random quote from a disgruntled former player to prove your point?
I pluck quotes from our players and our past players because those are the relevant quotes. You can choose to ignore those, but when the words in those quotes are born out in year after year results, I'm not sure why you'd be surprised that others choose to believe what they hear and see rather than the rosy narrative that doesn't seem to comport with this reality.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 18, 2020, 10:24:04 AM
Wojo allowed Markus to go back to Arizona during the summer and train with his family while the rest of the team had to be in Milwaukee. But yeah, he definitely coddled the Hausers.
Markus had a mental health breakdown and was allowed to go home and get well. If that is coddling, then any player or their family with a problem with that can go pledge allegiance to another program. Wojo's response there was pioneering and actually helped land DJ.
Three things I've learned from Scoop:
1. Wojo needs a longer leash. He pulls players too quickly for mistakes and they play tight. He needs to let players play and play though mistakes. Let them run and get in the flow and improve. How are they going to get better if they don't play through mistakes.
2. Wojo needs a shorter leash. Players won't learn otherwise . Who cares if the players tighten up and play afraid of making mistakes and looking over their shoulders. It just means the players aren't tough enough or Wojo doesn't care or doesn't know how to coach. He needs to hold people accountable for mistakes.
My take: The most effective coaching is actually positive coaching pointing out and encouraging the positives, what one is doing right, while limiting the negative responses. I believe this has pretty much been established. You want people focusing on the positive what they do right and not focusing on "not to do it wrong." There is certainly a balance here, of course, but the old yell at every mistake is not the way to coach. Yes, historically some coaches have succeeded with the negative coaching, but this ignores that this is how everyone else coached as well. And it might just be that some negative coaches succeed despite themselves or at least their teams succeed despite them based upon talent. Is Izzo an example, I don't know, but the Bobby Knights of he world may not have been as good at their job as we once thought.
My take: So Wojo knows not to focus on the mistakes. Yes point them out, yes try to correct them. But also don't have players playing to not make mistakes. Balance is needed and with younger players who have not played together, a lot of patience is needed on his part.
My take: Wojo knows the emotional make up of his team and players a lot better than we do. He seems patient this year and has learned from the above.
My take: If Wojo wanted to be a traditional "punishment" coach, he really can't be as you need quality backups to put in if you start pulling players a lot, etc. And then Scoop in its genius would say: Too short a leash, let them play through mistakes!
3. After a big win, we lose too often, and this is because Wojo can't get the team up to play the next game. This is bad coaching.
My take: This ignores logic. It's called regress to the mean. We aren't losing to Prairie View. If we play above our weight and then lose to a quality opponent is that great coaching that we won the big game or bad coaching that we won the big game an then lost to a quality opponent.
My take: UCLA, Seton Hall, not games I expected us to Win. Creighton and UW, definitely not games I expected to win. We are ahead. Way ahead. I'll take this coaching.
My take: Most teams, especially college teams (versus veteran pro teams) might see some emotional let down. But, a more logical way of looking at it is that when a team over achieves by winning against a highly ranked team and then plays at or near their expected level the following game, this is simple stats/logic.
Stats/logic dictate a regression unless the big win is the standard instead of the exception.
Duplicate
I mean yeah. Tony Bennett and Tom Izzo are better coaches than Wojo. I don't think anyone is going to dispute this.
The real questions are: Is Wojo improving? Is he learning from his mistakes?
And my answer would be that, while he has improved as a coach from his first couple of years, that improvement has been pretty marginal. This is what a B+ recruiter and C+ coach gets you. Some days they are going to look good. Like Monday. Some days they will look completely out of sorts and lost. Yesterday was one of those days.
I'd say Wojo has learned a lot. His coaching style now reflects that of a positive coach rather than the traditional punishment coach. He needs patience with this team and he is showing it. I like this team. He recruited it well. Many pieces. Too bad it is a Covid year, as I am looking forward to seeing how they play in March, even with freshman who often burn out - another reason not to be a traditional "punishment" coach with this team.
For my above post, here is the top google search on regression to the mean:
https://www.squawkpoint.com/2013/01/regression-to-the-mean/
Which makes me wonder, did Lewis play bad after UW or did he play as expected? We all know the answer to that one.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 18, 2020, 10:47:13 AM
I mean yeah. Tony Bennett and Tom Izzo are better coaches than Wojo. I don't think anyone is going to dispute this.
The real questions are: Is Wojo improving? Is he learning from his mistakes?
And my answer would be that, while he has improved as a coach from his first couple of years, that improvement has been pretty marginal. This is what a B+ recruiter and C+ coach gets you. Some days they are going to look good. Like Monday. Some days they will look completely out of sorts and lost. Yesterday was one of those days.
Concise and pretty much sums it up. I think my issue is that Wojo does not appear to be improving enough each year to make a big difference. He is better than year 1, but the progression has been too slow.
It's like the program is allergic to sustaining success.
16-17: Beat #1 Nova, lose 4 of 5
17-18: Beat #13 Hall by 20, lose 6 of 8
18-19: One game from league title, lose 5 of 6
19-20: Beat #19 Butler, lose 6 of 7
Four years in a row a big win (or chance at a title) has been followed by a tailspin. This is why everyone is rightly skeptical.
Young teams though, hey?
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 18, 2020, 09:40:47 AM
The OP was mostly to refer to how we always seem to have a quick come-down after we get the big win. After this week's win over Creighton, yesterday felt inevitable, even though we were at home, with momentum, and have arguably the better talent.
I also feel we spend as much time making excuses such as "we're young" when it's really not true. Our rotation includes three senior starters with 13 years of D1 experience & 10 in the program. We have two guards, one redshirt junior & one sophomore, that spent their entire careers here.
We really only have three newcomers, two of whom came in as top-40 recruits. Per kenpom, our experience is #179 & minute continuity is #161, so right around the middle of the pack, not where we were years ago when the "young" excuse was apt.
But yes, it's disappointment and frustration because we keep seeing this narrative play out and I'm also tired of the Cubs-fanesque way we try to convince ourselves this time will be different or how much better we'll be in a year or two when we've seen no tangible evidence that this staff is capable of making either of those things a reality.
I understand your frustration, share it, and agree with most of your points.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 18, 2020, 11:20:14 AM
It's like the program is allergic to sustaining success.
16-17: Beat #1 Nova, lose 4 of 5
17-18: Beat #13 Hall by 20, lose 6 of 8
18-19: One game from league title, lose 5 of 6
19-20: Beat #19 Butler, lose 6 of 7
Four years in a row a big win (or chance at a title) has been followed by a tailspin. This is why everyone is rightly skeptical.
This is quite damning, and well stated. Of course, they also won 20 of 22 after a big loss to Kansas, but I get your point.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 18, 2020, 10:30:10 AM
I pluck quotes from our players and our past players because those are the relevant quotes. You can choose to ignore those, but when the words in those quotes are born out in year after year results, I'm not sure why you'd be surprised that others choose to believe what they hear and see rather than the rosy narrative that doesn't seem to comport with this reality.
But they're not though when it comes to defense. We have objective statistical evidence that the defense improved greatly in the past three years. Maybe the defense tailspins in Big East play but other than the Creighton game (a top 5 offense), our defense has been very good.
As for Sam's comments about accountability, I'd buy that more than his comments about the defense. But Silent Verbal's example was a bad one. Dr. B has the correct set of facts on that one.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 18, 2020, 11:20:14 AM
It's like the program is allergic to sustaining success.
16-17: Beat #1 Nova, lose 4 of 5
17-18: Beat #13 Hall by 20, lose 6 of 8
18-19: One game from league title, lose 5 of 6
19-20: Beat #19 Butler, lose 6 of 7
Four years in a row a big win (or chance at a title) has been followed by a tailspin. This is why everyone is rightly skeptical.
Young teams though, hey?
Are we saying that Wojo only wins the big games? :)
Again, the lack of logic baffles me.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 18, 2020, 10:03:38 AM
And again, we have 3 seniors starting, two more rotation players with multiple years in the system, and are middle of the pack in experience and minute continuity. This isn't a neophyte squad, we're actually pretty average in that regard.
And only 1 of those dudes has averaged more than 21 minutes a game in a season. Adjusting from being a guy to one of the guys is not a smooth process. I've actually been impressed with how Koby, Theo, and Jamal have grown into their roles. Elliott has had highs and lows and Symir has just had lows so far.
This is not the year to expect winning at a high level consistently. It was never going to be, no matter who was coaching. It is definitely a year to expect the coaching staff to prove that they can make this team better than the sum of its parts which is something that they haven't shown in previous years. If they don't, I'll personally be ready to move on.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 18, 2020, 10:47:13 AM
I mean yeah. Tony Bennett and Tom Izzo are better coaches than Wojo. I don't think anyone is going to dispute this.
The real questions are: Is Wojo improving? Is he learning from his mistakes?
And my answer would be that, while he has improved as a coach from his first couple of years, that improvement has been pretty marginal. This is what a B+ recruiter and C+ coach gets you. Some days they are going to look good. Like Monday. Some days they will look completely out of sorts and lost. Yesterday was one of those days.
I agree mostly with this.
However, I don't think he looked "completely out of sorts" last night. That applies to the Oklahoma State game, for sure. Yesterday, I wish he had coached better, but I don't think it was a hot mess or anything like OSU.
It is amazing how much better he coached when we hit nearly 60% of our threes in Omaha, though!
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 18, 2020, 10:30:10 AM
I pluck quotes from our players and our past players because those are the relevant quotes. You can choose to ignore those, but when the words in those quotes are born out in year after year results, I'm not sure why you'd be surprised that others choose to believe what they hear and see rather than the rosy narrative that doesn't seem to comport with this reality.
And you have chosen to ignore quotes from the likes of Markus Howard and Samir who likely say nothing but positive things about Wojo.
Guys who stay love the coach and the program.
Guys who leave hate the coach and the program.
Their comments will reflect that.
A lot of Scoopers hate Crean. Many who don't go so far as hating Crean still have little respect for him.
Wade loves Crean, calls him a fantastic coach.
A lot of the Scoopers who hate Crean love Wade.
All of which means ... what?
Take any comments from any players with a grain of salt.
Brother and Sister Scoopers:
Most of you are over-analyzing our season to date. We are a significantly inexperienced team that will become better with time.
Likewise, I'm seeing things in Wojo this year that says he's learning as well. We're not going to be world killers each and every night, yet.
We will get there. Hopefully sooner rather than later. My view is that experienced teams win last night far more often than not. Our team is very talented and patience is a virtue.
Quote from: dgies9156 on December 18, 2020, 12:28:41 PM
Brother and Sister Scoopers:
Most of you are over-analyzing our season to date. We are a significantly inexperienced team that will become better with time.
Likewise, I'm seeing things in Wojo this year that says he's learning as well. We're not going to be world killers each and every night, yet.
We will get there. Hopefully sooner rather than later. My view is that experienced teams win last night far more often than not. Our team is very talented and patience is a virtue.
We are in accord.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on December 18, 2020, 11:53:40 AM
And you have chosen to ignore quotes from the likes of Markus Howard and Samir who likely say nothing but positive things about Wojo.
No, I'm not, they just aren't relevant. The quotes I'm highlighting are because they show a lower level of accountability and a coach that cannot convey to his team the importance of defense.
Just because some of his players like him doesn't make him a good coach. I like plenty of people because of their personality and not their professional ability.
And who's Samir?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 18, 2020, 11:46:45 AM
And only 1 of those dudes has averaged more than 21 minutes a game in a season. Adjusting from being a guy to one of the guys is not a smooth process. I've actually been impressed with how Koby, Theo, and Jamal have grown into their roles. Elliott has had highs and lows and Symir has just had lows so far.
But that's just college basketball. That's why we watch the sport. As a freshman, you give bit minutes, as a sophomore you work into the rotation, as an upperclassman you become a starter and more impactful player. Sometimes guys are ahead of the curve or behind it, but expecting seniors to play like seniors shouldn't be some surprising ask because that is virtually every team every year.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 18, 2020, 12:42:35 PM
And who's Samir?
Samir sounds like someone that could be straight out of Bollywood.
Good to hear Wojo has backers on the subcontinent.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 18, 2020, 12:42:35 PM
No, I'm not, they just aren't relevant. The quotes I'm highlighting are because they show a lower level of accountability and a coach that cannot convey to his team the importance of defense.
Just because some of his players like him doesn't make him a good coach. I like plenty of people because of their personality and not their professional ability.
And who's Samir?
My apologies. I need to proofread my posts. Sacar.
Not Relevant to you. Relevant to me. So picking out a quote from a former, disgruntled player to prove your point also proves your bias against Wojo.
Quote from: GOO on December 18, 2020, 11:40:18 AM
Are we saying that Wojo only wins the big games? :)
Again, the lack of logic baffles me.
Nah, kant wynn inn March, aina?
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 18, 2020, 12:46:29 PM
But that's just college basketball. That's why we watch the sport. As a freshman, you give bit minutes, as a sophomore you work into the rotation, as an upperclassman you become a starter and more impactful player. Sometimes guys are ahead of the curve or behind it, but expecting seniors to play like seniors shouldn't be some surprising ask because that is virtually every team every year.
What's just college basketball is that teams that lose 70% of their scoring, including a first team All-American, their second best player, and a third starter typically don't improve the following season, more often than not they decline. If they do improve or even maintain, that's the sign of a strong program. Age is important. Returning minutes are important. Upperclassmen with lots of returning minutes are most important.
Also, which of our seniors aren't playing like seniors? I think Koby, Theo, Jamal, and Greg have been playing the best basketball of their careers to start this season. We're talking about four guys who were ranked #145, #175, #204, and #224 by 247Composite coming out of high school. While none of them developed in a straight line, I think their progression is about where you would expect those level of recruits to be as seniors. Sure there are examples from those ranges who have been better or worse, but I think they're within normal range.
I could be wrong, but my perception is that our worst offenders with the concerns you have raised (turnovers and blown defensive assignments/slow rotations) are not our seniors but our underclassmen. I think Theo and Greg may be up in there in turnover% but that's due to how low their usage is. Plus, Greg had 3 against APB and since has had 4 turnovers in 7 games.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on December 18, 2020, 01:47:16 PM
My apologies. I need to proofread my posts. Sacar.
Not Relevant to you. Relevant to me. So picking out a quote from a former, disgruntled player to prove your point also proves your bias against Wojo.
/'
No worries, wasn't sure if you meant Sacar or Symir.
And as far as picking Hauser quotes, he's talking primarily about Virginia. He's talking about their expectations and what they expect of him. The context makes it clear what the differences are, but it isn't like he's bagging on Wojo. And you're ignoring the quotes by current players who are indicating defense wasn't a priority or something they really bought into until this year.
My bias against Wojo is that he has failed repeatedly to deliver results and he has degraded the Marquette product on the court. He has been a good representative of the University and brought in likable players that are easy to cheer for, but I firmly believe his style is not one that will succeed in the modern game nor that he understands the ways the game is changing statistically. If there were strings of results to counter that, I'd have a different opinion, but I don't see them. I do, however, repeatedly see the failings of past years cropping up again, just like I believe we are again overrating the defense that, like the past two years, is mediocre by high-major standards.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 18, 2020, 03:34:10 PM
My bias against Wojo is that he has failed repeatedly to deliver results and he has degraded the Marquette product on the court. He has been a good representative of the University and brought in likable players that are easy to cheer for, but I firmly believe his style is not one that will succeed in the modern game nor that he understands the ways the game is changing statistically. If there were strings of results to counter that, I'd have a different opinion, but I don't see them. I do, however, repeatedly see the failings of past years cropping up again, just like I believe we are again overrating the defense that, like the past two years, is mediocre by high-major standards.
Maybe my standards are too high, but what I keep coming back to is that his Marquette teams (outside of maybe 18-19 pre-collapse) never look capable of competing with top echelon programs. They're either too short, not physical enough, not athletic enough... and every time we play one of them it's a "bad matchup."
If the University wants a top 50 program most years, then he's doing fine. But any aspirations higher than that, I don't think he's the guy.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 18, 2020, 03:34:10 PM
/'
No worries, wasn't sure if you meant Sacar or Symir.
And as far as picking Hauser quotes, he's talking primarily about Virginia. He's talking about their expectations and what they expect of him. The context makes it clear what the differences are, but it isn't like he's bagging on Wojo. And you're ignoring the quotes by current players who are indicating defense wasn't a priority or something they really bought into until this year.
My bias against Wojo is that he has failed repeatedly to deliver results and he has degraded the Marquette product on the court. He has been a good representative of the University and brought in likable players that are easy to cheer for, but I firmly believe his style is not one that will succeed in the modern game nor that he understands the ways the game is changing statistically. If there were strings of results to counter that, I'd have a different opinion, but I don't see them. I do, however, repeatedly see the failings of past years cropping up again, just like I believe we are again overrating the defense that, like the past two years, is mediocre by high-major standards.
What statistical category do you think the staff is ignoring? Obviously forcing turnovers is the glaring number.
Quote from: panda on December 18, 2020, 04:21:14 PM
What statistical category do you think the staff is ignoring? Obviously forcing turnovers is the glaring number.
Turnovers on both ends is glaring and I've written on that before. It's somewhat disturbing to watch steal percentage numbers routinely go down over Marquette players careers under Wojo. Offensively, sticking with Markus in 2019 when he was clearly hurt and lost effectiveness, or sticking with Koby all last year, particularly as his numbers tanked late. Once Wojo has his guys, it seems almost impossible for on-court evidence to change his rotations until it's far past time.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 18, 2020, 08:35:58 PM
Turnovers on both ends is glaring and I've written on that before. It's somewhat disturbing to watch steal percentage numbers routinely go down over Marquette players careers under Wojo. Offensively, sticking with Markus in 2019 when he was clearly hurt and lost effectiveness, or sticking with Koby all last year, particularly as his numbers tanked late. Once Wojo has his guys, it seems almost impossible for on-court evidence to change his rotations until it's far past time.
In the past two years this is true. The two years before that, he switched up lineups and finished the regular season 4-1 (year 3) and 5-1 (year 4). We will see what he does this season. I've already observed more lineup flexibility than I saw last season.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 18, 2020, 08:35:58 PM
Turnovers on both ends is glaring and I've written on that before. It's somewhat disturbing to watch steal percentage numbers routinely go down over Marquette players careers under Wojo. Offensively, sticking with Markus in 2019 when he was clearly hurt and lost effectiveness, or sticking with Koby all last year, particularly as his numbers tanked late. Once Wojo has his guys, it seems almost impossible for on-court evidence to change his rotations until it's far past time.
Thanks
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on December 18, 2020, 01:47:16 PMNot Relevant to you. Relevant to me. So picking out a quote from a former, disgruntled player to prove your point also proves your bias against Wojo.
Also, it's worth remembering those quotes come from a player Wojo recruited, signed, and coached. Whatever happened afterward, Wojo completely created the situation that put Markus, Sam, and Joey on a roster together and the fallout that came from it.
When Joey committed, I remember Wojo saying to the effect that having Sam on the roster wasn't an automatic positive because if Sam had a bad experience at Marquette, that would've worked against them to get Joey. Which means Wojo has to be held accountable for the reality that Joey having a bad experience worked against them in having both Joey AND Sam transferring. He doesn't get credit for one experiential win without blame for the subsequent experiential loss.
That's why I refuse to give him a pass on the Hausers. It was his doing. He put together the roster and created the expectations that effectively led to two lost years: the Big East title that we lost 4 games in a row and the title we could've shared had we won 6/7 instead of losing 6/7 (and yes, we were favored to win 6 of those 7 games, so it's less outlandish to assume we could've won them than the reality that we lost them).
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 18, 2020, 08:35:58 PM
Turnovers on both ends is glaring and I've written on that before. It's somewhat disturbing to watch steal percentage numbers routinely go down over Marquette players careers under Wojo. Offensively, sticking with Markus in 2019 when he was clearly hurt and lost effectiveness, or sticking with Koby all last year, particularly as his numbers tanked late. Once Wojo has his guys, it seems almost impossible for on-court evidence to change his rotations until it's far past time.
On offense, consider that you may be overly focused on turnovers. Note, that overall, MU has had one of the most consistently efficient teams in the team's history, conference and the country in the Wojo era. eFG rates have been off the charts good and alternately FTR and OR% have made up the mediocre TO%, remembering how Wojo likes to use the chip block with his bigs who have high TO rates due to offensive fouls (Theo is 30% this year, for example, also understanding the points of emphasis change on this over time). Sum of the parts has been greater than just one factor
This year's team seems different, though, and I think the turnover problem is fixable. Yet, MU doesn't have the shooters this year.
On defense, I am a known critic but I am digging the D this season. Last game, for example, we had breakaway steals by Carton and Cain, something I can't recall much of in the Wojo years, where he had stressed staying in space versus pressing the passing lanes.
Net, I am not as hot and bothered long term by the turnovers on offense as they have been an ends to a means. This year, there is cleanup to do. I mean, Theo with a ridiculous 70%+eFG% and a 30% TO rate is crazy.
Over the past ~7 years, MU has proven out the Any Given Sunday theorem.
I imagine if you looked at every RPI 40-60 team they have this same experience. They remain middling teams but have lots of games versus top teams. They win a quarter of them, then lay an egg 5 days later against comparatively inferior talent. #Arbys
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on December 19, 2020, 10:39:18 AM
Over the past ~7 years, MU has proven out the Any Given Sunday theorem.
I imagine if you looked at every RPI 40-60 team they have this same experience. They remain middling teams but have lots of games versus top teams. They win a quarter of them, then lay an egg 5 days later against comparatively inferior talent. #Arbys
Which is why you need a good defense that can win you games and keep you close during the BE grind when the O isn't clicking. See past seasons' rants.
#sanford
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 19, 2020, 10:47:23 AM
Which is why you need a good defense that can win you games and keep you close during the BE grind when the O isn't clicking. See past seasons' rants.
#sanford
Right. Bummer that's not the case. MU's numbers:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-uqhubQoya-s/X9qVQCATZmI/AAAAAAAAbAo/m2xl1B2jtx0kTDuzjcp0RhS2taeucWqgQCK8BGAsYHg/s381/2020-12-16.png)
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on December 19, 2020, 01:49:25 PM
Right. Bummer that's not the case. MU's numbers:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-uqhubQoya-s/X9qVQCATZmI/AAAAAAAAbAo/m2xl1B2jtx0kTDuzjcp0RhS2taeucWqgQCK8BGAsYHg/s381/2020-12-16.png)
So...we're in the bottom 20 in Division 1 in forcing turnovers? That's not great...
Quote from: SaveOD238 on December 19, 2020, 04:56:33 PM
So...we're in the bottom 20 in Division 1 in forcing turnovers? That's not great...
Defense is time wasted you could be scoring.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on December 20, 2020, 09:01:59 AM
"Defense is time wasted you could be scoring."
-- Andrew Rowsey
Quote from: SaveOD238 on December 19, 2020, 04:56:33 PM
So...we're in the bottom 20 in Division 1 in forcing turnovers? That's not great...
Last year. This year we are up to bottom 70!