1. Ball movement on offense? Lots of watching whoever is dribbling. Little movement/passing
2. Dawson needs to figure out quickly this isn't high school ball
3. Did wojo forget about Lewis?
4. The lack of getting the ball inside is troubling
5. Even more troubling is the continuing trend of TOs under Wojo teams
6. DJ had a solid game. He was the offense for most of the game
7. The refs did NOT have a solid game
8. We don't have much outside shooting talent
9. Listening to Bill Walton is something
Elite shooting, no defense.
Defense improves, no shooting.
Forever two years away from being really good.
Credit to the Bruins and Mick. They stepped up their D down the stretch. Dexter needs to pretend he's playing pickup. Garcia needs to realize he no longer has a 7 inch height advantage. Game came down to getting in foul trouble and giving away too many possessions.
10. Entertaining game, with a Greek tragedy ending.
11. Markus isn't walking back through that door. 3P shooting will struggle tremendously compared to the past.
12. Due to #11, please start practicing offense Wojo. 6 total shots for Lewis and Theo in a game like tonight is criminal (I know they had fouls in the first but still) Go inside and often, go to Theo more, Lewis more, Dawson more.
13. 4 made threes in Omoha will lead to a 20+ point loss. Make more on Monday.
14. The return leg in 2021 at the FiServ should be fun, hopefully with fans
4 for 20 on threes, 0 for 11 in second?
18 turnovers
Carton with four second half points
Garcia needs to get way stronger with his putback shots, another one blocked tonight and missed a few others.
Theo had zero points
Does MU lead the nation in shot clock violations yet?
Maybe would have put Lewis back in over Theo in last four minutes, but who knows....
Jaquez is pretty nice player for UCLA. He was the one who really hurt MU.
Not a good omen for the next 4 games. Could be a pretty brutal stretch for MU coming up.
Quote from: nyg on December 11, 2020, 10:55:52 PM
4 for 20 on threes, 0 for 11 in second?
18 turnovers
Carton with four second half points
Garcia needs to get way stronger with his putback shots, another one blocked tonight and missed a few others.
Theo had zero points
Does MU lead the nation in shot clock violations yet?
Maybe would have put Lewis back in over Theo in last four minutes, but who knows....
Jaquez is pretty nice player for UCLA. He was the one who really hurt MU.
You must have missed Tyger
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 11, 2020, 11:01:36 PM
You must have missed Tyger
Just posted in game thread after a Brew post about him. He was terrific, but that Jaquez was real good.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 11, 2020, 10:47:51 PM
1. Ball movement on offense? Lots of watching whoever is dribbling. Little movement/passing
2. Dawson needs to figure out quickly this isn't high school ball
3. Did wojo forget about Lewis?
4. The lack of getting the ball inside is troubling
5. Even more troubling is the continuing trend of TOs under Wojo teams
6. DJ had a solid game. He was the offense for most of the game
7. The refs did NOT have a solid game
8. We don't have much outside shooting talent
9. Listening to Bill Walton is something
Good summary, jesmu.
Why did Lewis sit so much? Let him foul out of the game if that's what's going to happen rather than wither away on the bench.
Also - Markus Howard would be just what the doctor ordered on this team if you could convince him to (1) not be the primary ball handler and (2) take half as many shots as he did last year.
10. Oso impressed
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 11, 2020, 11:10:32 PM
Also - Markus Howard would be just what the doctor ordered on this team if you could convince him to (1) not be the primary ball handler and (2) take half as many shots as he did last year.
If Markus ever played a game for Marquette where he wasn't the primary ball handler and didn't get as many shots as he wanted, his parents would be so mad they'd have an entire section of fans kicked out of Fiserv Forum.
Quote from: Norm on December 11, 2020, 10:57:52 PM
Not a good omen for the next 4 games. Could be a pretty brutal stretch for MU coming up.
I'd bet we go 2-2 in the next 4, but Monday will be ugly.
14. Young team with a ton of potential has two "good" losses on their resume. All is not lost
Quote from: nyg on December 11, 2020, 11:06:03 PM
Just posted in game thread after a Brew post about him. He was terrific, but that Jaquez was real good.
Tyger managed the game great & defended Carton well down the stretch, but it felt like from the first time he came in, Jacquez made all the big plays for UCLA & scored the back-breakers. They had a number of quality contributions, but on UCLAScoop my SOTG vote would go to Jacquez.
Honestly, was very pleased with the game until the under 8 timeout. That was a very good offense going against a very good defense and more often than not our defense was winning the battle. With Big East refs calling this game, we enter the last stretch up 10.
People will point to the turnovers and they aren't wrong...but they're not why we lost. They kept us from building a bigger lead before the end of the game...but in the critical stretch where UCLA won it, we committed 0 turnovers. The last turnover was the shot clock violation after UCLA had just hit 2 FTs to break a 56-56 tie. From that point on, we played turnover free basketball....but couldn't score.
I don't know this for sure, but I suspect during the under 8 timeout, Wojo instructed his players to attack UCLA's defense and try to win the game at the foul line. Not a bad strategy considering the way the game had been called. First offensive play after the timeout got Dawson to the line and a 4th foul on Jaquez. The next one was the shot clock violation. After that, 4 of the next 6 offensive possessions culminated in an attempted layup. Those 4 attempted layups resulted in 2 points (Koby's pocket pass to Cain) and 3 blocked shots. Credit to UCLA, 2 of the blocks were clearly clean and 1 may have been a foul but if it was, not an obvious one. Great defensive effort by UCLA to challenge those shots without fouling.
While I don't fault Wojo for the decision to try to win at the free throw line, I do fault the decision to keep Lewis out of the game. I think Garcia earned his time by playing stellar D on Chris Smith most of the night, but we needed offense and Lewis was causing Bruins trouble every time he touched the ball. Should have put him in for the last 5 minutes.
Love aggressive Carton. Get that dude for 32 minutes a game and we won't have many problems on offense.
Oso, way to step up when your number is called. Dexter, nice assist?
We are not a great three point shooting team, but we are better than 4/20. Cain had 2 wide open looks that wouldn't fall. Greg missed a pair of open looks he usually hits. Carton started with 2 makes and missed some clean looks after that. All 4 of Dawson's misses were in rhythm, one was 75% down before popping back up. We shoot even 35% from range tonight and we win the game.
Don't have to go too deep into the weeds to analyze this one. Foul trouble, turnovers, and ice cold three point shooting was the story. Great defense and rebounding can make up for two of those but not all three.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 11, 2020, 11:16:05 PM
If Markus ever played a game for Marquette where he wasn't the primary ball handler and didn't get as many shots as he wanted, his parents would be so mad they'd have an entire section of fans kicked out of Fiserv Forum.
Wait. Did you just out yourself as someone who got into an a pissing match with Markus's family? Very cool. Very, very cool.
B!tch about Wojo all you want. But anybody who sits behind the MU family section and vocally bashes the players is a POS.
Is it true that Wojo thought that Lewis had fouled out?
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 11, 2020, 11:16:05 PM
If Markus ever played a game for Marquette where he wasn't the primary ball handler and didn't get as many shots as he wanted, his parents would be so mad they'd have an entire section of fans kicked out of Fiserv Forum.
Those fans deserved to get tossed
Quote from: BLM on December 11, 2020, 11:23:59 PM
Wait. Did you just out yourself as someone who got into an a pissing match with Markus's family? Very cool. Very, very cool.
B!tch about Wojo all you want. But anybody who sits behind the MU section and vocally bashes the players is a POS.
Haha, no. I was just referencing the incident from last year that became a big brouhaha on here. I have never, and would never, boo amateur athletes. Except for the Badgers.
Quote from: Afroman on December 11, 2020, 11:24:45 PM
Is it true that Wojo thought that Lewis had fouled out?
Is it true that Wojo didn't know OSU was in a 2-3 zone?
The world may never know.
UCLA thoughts, you do not beat average teams much less UCLA when as said earlier 18 TO and 0-11 3s 2nd Half. But credit UCLA Defense. A peculiarity of this game was Marquette shot like the first 12 Free Throws of the 2nd Half and went up and UCLA shot about the last 13 Free Throws of the Game. Beat Creighton Go Marquette!
Quote from: MarquetteMike1977 on December 12, 2020, 12:32:02 AM
UCLA thoughts, you do not beat average teams much less UCLA when as said earlier 18 TO and 0-11 3s 2nd Half. But credit UCLA Defense. A peculiarity of this game was Marquette shot like the first 12 Free Throws of the 2nd Half and went up and UCLA shot about the last 13 Free Throws of the Game. Beat Creighton Go Marquette!
Not really a peculiarity, but MU kept getting their shots blocked inside and missing their jumpers outside. As I believe TAMU said, the strategy was to go inside and win it at the line, but that doesn't work when you're getting stuffed clean.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 11, 2020, 11:20:01 PM
Honestly, was very pleased with the game until the under 8 timeout. That was a very good offense going against a very good defense and more often than not our defense was winning the battle. With Big East refs calling this game, we enter the last stretch up 10.
Agreed
People will point to the turnovers and they aren't wrong...but they're not why we lost. They kept us from building a bigger lead before the end of the game...but in the critical stretch where UCLA won it, we committed 0 turnovers. The last turnover was the shot clock violation after UCLA had just hit 2 FTs to break a 56-56 tie. From that point on, we played turnover free basketball....but couldn't score.
I don't know this for sure, but I suspect during the under 8 timeout, Wojo instructed his players to attack UCLA's defense and try to win the game at the foul line. Not a bad strategy considering the way the game had been called. First offensive play after the timeout got Dawson to the line and a 4th foul on Jaquez. The next one was the shot clock violation. After that, 4 of the next 6 offensive possessions culminated in an attempted layup. Those 4 attempted layups resulted in 2 points (Koby's pocket pass to Cain) and 3 blocked shots. Credit to UCLA, 2 of the blocks were clearly clean and 1 may have been a foul but if it was, not an obvious one. Great defensive effort by UCLA to challenge those shots without fouling.
While I don't fault Wojo for the decision to try to win at the free throw line, I do fault the decision to keep Lewis out of the game. I think Garcia earned his time by playing stellar D on Chris Smith most of the night, but we needed offense and Lewis was causing Bruins trouble every time he touched the ball. Should have put him in for the last 5 minutes.
Love aggressive Carton. Get that dude for 32 minutes a game and we won't have many problems on offense.
Oso, way to step up when your number is called. Dexter, nice assist?
We are not a great three point shooting team, but we are better than 4/20. Cain had 2 wide open looks that wouldn't fall. Greg missed a pair of open looks he usually hits. Carton started with 2 makes and missed some clean looks after that. All 4 of Dawson's misses were in rhythm, one was 75% down before popping back up. We shoot even 35% from range tonight and we win the game.
Don't have to go too deep into the weeds to analyze this one. Foul trouble, turnovers, and ice cold three point shooting was the story. Great defense and rebounding can make up for two of those but not all three.
Agreed
1. McEwen is no point guard.
2. I love Garcia, but he's not as strong as he needs to be and he's going to struggle with physicality because of it.
3. We will lose a number of games in a similar fashion - we will struggle to score while the opponent clamps down on D down the stretch.
Symir is a better back up PG than Koby. He wasn't available.
Oso has game.
Freshmen look like freshmen sometimes. I seem to recall Butler couldn't finish through contact when he started.
Maybe having a top 25 all time NCAA scorer and world class elite shooter wasn't so bad.
Foul trouble on the road. Somewhere just below death and taxes on the guarantee spectrum.
Marquette lost their first road game of the year. Just below foul trouble on the same spectrum.
Stay healthy and hope to keep playing and improving.
To win games against High Major opponents the team has play hard for the full 40 minutes. Any let down and the opponent starts to pull away. Our guys played well for about 34 minutes and then the team ran out of steam.
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=401255034
In their game recap they say that there is no timetable for Symir's return and that Theo did not practice the last couple of days due to a balky knee.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 11, 2020, 11:20:01 PM
I don't know this for sure, but I suspect during the under 8 timeout, Wojo instructed his players to attack UCLA's defense and try to win the game at the foul line. Not a bad strategy considering the way the game had been called. First offensive play after the timeout got Dawson to the line and a 4th foul on Jaquez. The next one was the shot clock violation. After that, 4 of the next 6 offensive possessions culminated in an attempted layup. Those 4 attempted layups resulted in 2 points (Koby's pocket pass to Cain) and 3 blocked shots. Credit to UCLA, 2 of the blocks were clearly clean and 1 may have been a foul but if it was, not an obvious one. Great defensive effort by UCLA to challenge those shots without fouling.
Great breakdown that sheds a light on those last few minutes.
3 missed/blocked layups and 2 3-pointers that were halfway down. That's 5 trips were we got excellent looks and the ball didn't go in. So Wojo's offense and plan was excellent and the players executed well so maybe it is just a bit of bad luck and a tip of the hat to UCLA's defense.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on December 12, 2020, 08:17:16 AM
Great breakdown that sheds a light on those last few minutes.
3 missed/blocked layups and 2 3-pointers that were halfway down. That's 5 trips were we got excellent looks and the ball didn't go in. So Wojo's offense and plan was excellent and the players executed well so maybe it is just a bit of bad luck and a tip of the hat to UCLA's defense.
Let's back up here a bit. Not sure how you can call it an excellent offensive gameplan with excellent looks if your shots are getting blocked to the shadow realm.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 12, 2020, 08:22:59 AM
Let's back up here a bit. Not sure how you can call it an excellent offensive gameplan with excellent looks if your shots are getting blocked to the shadow realm.
The gameplan and execution weren't perfect by any stretch. But this team has limitations. I find it hard to find fault with a majority of went on last night. It's all part of the process. Learn and move on to Omaha.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 12, 2020, 09:06:25 AM
The gameplan and execution weren't perfect by any stretch. But this team has limitations. I find it hard to find fault with a majority of went on last night. It's all part of the process. Learn and move on to Omaha.
I agree that this loss wasn't all on coaching and gameplan. Maybe even moreso the inherent limitations of the players on this team.
But I don't think it makes any type of logical sense to herald an "excellent gameplan" producing "excellent looks" when we went without a FG for multiple 5+ minute stretches of this game.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 12, 2020, 09:45:22 AM
I agree that this loss wasn't all on coaching and gameplan. Maybe even moreso the inherent limitations of the players on this team.
But I don't think it makes any type of logical sense to herald an "excellent gameplan" producing "excellent looks" when we went without a FG for multiple 5+ minute stretches of this game.
Except that they were good looks. So....
From a coaching standpoint, all you can do is run sets that get your players good looks. The players have to make shots.
Lazy with the ball and getting into passing lanes. V-cut or do something but just putting your hand up wanting the ball doesn't work.
Wojo needs to go zone once in awhile to keep guys out of foul trouble. If you want Lewis in the game with two fouls and it's early, you can buy some minutes.
Quote from: tower912 on December 12, 2020, 10:19:51 AM
From a coaching standpoint, all you can do is run sets that get your players good looks. The players have to make shots.
Exactly.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 12, 2020, 10:17:49 AM
Except that they were good looks. So....
No they really really weren't. Just because they were layups does not mean they are inherently good looks. When you have two guys on you and get your shot blocked (which happened several times in the last 5 minutes) that's not a good look.
Quote from: OffTheGlass on December 12, 2020, 10:28:09 AM
Lazy with the ball and getting into passing lanes. V-cut or do something but just putting your hand up wanting the ball doesn't work.
Wojo needs to go zone once in awhile to keep guys out of foul trouble. If you want Lewis in the game with two fouls and it's early, you can buy some minutes.
Zone is a dangerous play on defense. All 5 guys need to know their responsibility (which isn't straightforward like man on man) at all times or else it will get shredded by any halfway competent team.
With the amount of freshman this team has, combined with the fact that I have never seen a Wojo team play zone for any meaningful stretch of time, means "switching to zone" isn't a realistic option in situations such as last night.
Despite all of this, I agree with the premise and theory of what you're saying.
I don't think this team needs to zone, but to say you haven't seen a Wojo team play zone means you haven't been watching.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 12, 2020, 11:39:13 AM
No they really really weren't. Just because they were layups does not mean they are inherently good looks. When you have two guys on you and get your shot blocked (which happened several times in the last 5 minutes) that's not a good look.
Still not correct
we beat Wisco so the rest of the season is playing with house money. Assuming the roster comes back next year we will stomp.
Cain not coming back would be fine.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 12, 2020, 11:43:42 AM
Zone is a dangerous play on defense. All 5 guys need to know their responsibility (which isn't straightforward like man on man) at all times or else it will get shredded by any halfway competent team.
Tell that to OSU.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 12, 2020, 12:23:24 PM
Still not correct
You just saying something contrarian with no facts or evidence to back it up doesn't make you right. No matter how much you want it to.
We got blocked several times in the last 5 minutes, had multiple turnovers, and a shot clock violation. Not an excellent gameplan, not excellent looks. Not really debatable.
Quote from: mileskishnish72 on December 12, 2020, 12:47:01 PM
Tell that to OSU.
OSU clearly practiced zone in anticipation of playing MU and each player was properly coached to his role.
I don't really have faith in our current staff to do that.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 12, 2020, 01:40:47 PM
You just saying something contrarian with no facts or evidence to back it up doesn't make you right. No matter how much you want it to.
I agree with this, it's an internet pet peeve of mine. Easiest thing in the world to write a response like that.
Quote from: tower912 on December 12, 2020, 07:59:16 AM
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=401255034
In their game recap they say that there is no timetable for Symir's return and that Theo did not practice the last couple of days due to a balky knee.
I was wondering what happened to the Theo John we saw in the first two games who was running the floor, dunking on a breakaway and dunking on a put back above the rim.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 11, 2020, 11:10:32 PM
Why did Lewis sit so much? Let him foul out of the game if that's what's going to happen rather than wither away on the bench.
I think you want your most experience player around at the end. From this stand point I would of played Lewis more with four fouls. I would sit John with four fouls, but I would not sit Lewis.
Great posts by jesmu and TAMU. Really captured the essence of everything that took place.
I kept begging for Wojo to put Lewis back in when we were having so much trouble scoring. Not sure why he didn't. After coaching a great game vs Madison, this was meh. Not horrible, but certainly not good. We need better from him.
Garcia had two nice-looking baby hooks in the lane that rimmed out, and a 3-pointer I was certain was in ... until it wasn't. Dawson's in-and-out 3, along with Jamal's almost-down 3 from the baseline, were killers. Either of them goes in, and the ending could have been different.
In today's basketball, it's almost impossible to win when you shoot terribly from 3 and treat the basketball as if it's covered in Crisco.
Our guys don't do a good job of making themselves available for passes, especially when closely guarded on the perimeter. They don't step to the ball. The passing has to be better, but sometimes it's the fault of the passee.
I don't think the reffing cost us the game, but it was quite poor. The part that really ticked me off was when we had just worked real hard to get a 4-point lead midway through the 2H and had the ball, but DJ was called for a bogus offensive foul after a hand-off. He barely touched the UCLA player. We had all the momentum, the double-bonus, and a great chance to go up 6 or 7 there. It was especially galling in that just a couple possessions earlier, Theo was hammered while going up for a layup and there was no call. But just as none of the players nor either coach is perfect, neither are the refs. Gotta overcome adversity.
Finally ...
Quote from: Trump Loves The Big East on December 12, 2020, 07:37:26 AM
To win games against High Major opponents the team has play hard for the full 40 minutes. Any let down and the opponent starts to pull away. Our guys played well for about 34 minutes and then the team ran out of steam.
Just because we didn't play well at the end, it doesn't mean we didn't play hard at the end. Claims by some after the Oklahoma State game that the team had quit also were unfounded -- not to mention insulting to the athletes who work so hard. Jeesh.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 12, 2020, 01:40:47 PM
You just saying something contrarian with no facts or evidence to back it up doesn't make you right. No matter how much you want it to.
We got blocked several times in the last 5 minutes, had multiple turnovers, and a shot clock violation. Not an excellent gameplan, not excellent looks. Not really debatable.
The facts were all in Irwin's post.
Wide open 3s are absolutely excellent looks.
You saying "not really debatable" when we had wide open shots is an example of why you lose credibility here.
I agree with 5dollar that just attempting a layup does not automatically mean it was a good attempt, especially if that attempt gets blocked. That's a bad argument.
The two threes were wide open and definitely the result of good offense, just didn't get the shots to fall. Koby's long two I honestly thought was bad offense but the shot went in. The layup we made was a designed play that worked very well. My recollection of the three blocked layups was that one was cleanly blocked and the result of a wild drive, one I thought a foul could have been called but wasn't upset with the no call, the last was a clean block but it was after Koby made a good move to the bucket for an open layup, Hill just made a very athletic play to recover, turn, and block it from behind.
That stretch where UCLA extended the lead, I'd say the offense generated more good looks than bad ones, but we didn't hit the shots, didn't draw the fouls, and UCLA's defense was just better almost every time down the court. Their defense won it for them. IMHO, Ok State was about us running a poor offense. UCLA was about them locking down on defense.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 12, 2020, 01:53:36 PM
The facts were all in Irwin's post.
Wide open 3s are absolutely excellent looks.
You saying "not really debatable" when we had wide open shots is an example of why you lose credibility here.
Wide open shots? It seems that you're not considering that we either got blocked or turned the ball over on about 2/3 of our possessions in the last 5 minutes.
W/r/t our wide open shots - have you ever entertained the thought that defenses with good coaches that can make adjustments have decided that, if they need to give up any shot to this Marquette team, deep jump shots are the ones to give? Who's our best shooter? True freshman Dawson? Cain (who has been inconsistent his whole career at MU)? Koby? I truly don't know if we have a consistent deep jump shooter. Markus Howard is not walking back through that door. Deep jump shots and highly contested shots in the lane are just not excellent looks for this Marquette team.
"Excellent looks" are defined by the team you have, their strengths, what the defense is giving you, and what your offense can get you. The shots we were taking at the end of the game were not excellent looks.
To illustrate - we had several "open" deep jumpers against the OSU zone. But we bricked our way all the way to a somewhat embarrassing loss. Were those "excellent looks" that just "weren't falling for us"? Or were we being lazy and taking the one shot the defense was giving us? Food for thought.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 12, 2020, 02:08:13 PM
Wide open shots? It seems that you're not considering that we either got blocked or turned the ball over on about 2/3 of our possessions in the last 5 minutes.
In the last 5 minutes we had 0 turnovers, 3 shots get blocked, 2 FGMs, and 5 FGA that missed but weren't blocked.
Even after last night's poor 3P shooting performance, we are shooting 35.1% on the season. If we shot that last night, we would have scored 9 more points. Giving up wide open threes to guys like Cain and Garcia is not good defense, it was the result of good offense. Same thing was true on the other end when we gave up a couple of open looks to Kyman who clanked them.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 12, 2020, 02:13:47 PM
To illustrate - we had several "open" deep jumpers against the OSU zone. But we bricked our way all the way to a somewhat embarrassing loss. Were those "excellent looks" that just "weren't falling for us"? Or were we being lazy and taking the one shot the defense was giving us? Food for thought.
The deep jumpers against Ok State were "open" and out of rhythm. The ones last night were open and in rhythm. Ok state was bad offense. UCLA was good defense.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 12, 2020, 02:17:07 PM
In the last 5 minutes we had 0 turnovers, 3 shots get blocked, 2 FGMs, and 5 FGA that missed but weren't blocked.
3 of the 5 missed FGA you're mentioning were in the last 30 seconds or so when the game was over and we were in desperation chuck it up mode.
We also had 2 offensive fouls in the last 5 minutes.
Context is key.
Quote from: Autoengineer on December 12, 2020, 01:45:36 PM
I was wondering what happened to the Theo John we saw in the first two games who was running the floor, dunking on a breakaway and dunking on a put back above the rim.
Ummm he hasn't practiced in a week with a knee injury but strapped on the laces for the team.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 12, 2020, 02:22:43 PM
3 of the 5 missed FGA you're mentioning were in the last 30 seconds or so when the game was over and we were in desperation chuck it up mode.
Context is key.
Correct. Context is key. So is not making things up. Such as:
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 12, 2020, 02:08:13 PM
Wide open shots? It seems that you're not considering that we either got blocked or turned the ball over on about 2/3 of our possessions in the last 5 minutes.
Or such as:
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 12, 2020, 02:22:43 PM
We also had 2 offensive fouls in the last 5 minutes.
We had exactly one foul from the 5 minute mark to the 45 second mark. It was a defensive foul on Greg Elliott attempting to defend Chris Smith. The foul at the 45 second mark was Koby's fifth foul after a UCLA offensive rebound. The rest of the fouls were intentional. There were 0 offensive fouls in the last 5 minutes. The last offensive foul was at the 10:02 mark on Dawson Garcia.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 12, 2020, 03:11:15 PM
Correct. Context is key. So is not making things up. Such as:
Or such as:
We had exactly one foul from the 5 minute mark to the 45 second mark. It was a defensive foul on Greg Elliott attempting to defend Chris Smith. The foul at the 45 second mark was Koby's fifth foul after a UCLA offensive rebound. The rest of the fouls were intentional. There were 0 offensive fouls in the last 5 minutes. The last offensive foul was at the 10:02 mark on Dawson Garcia.
I must be misremembering the end to the half but my point about the missed shots in the last 30 seconds that were taken to the tune of yakety sax still stands.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 12, 2020, 03:28:16 PM
I must be misremembering the end to the half but my point about the missed shots in the last 30 seconds that were taken to the tune of yakety sax still stands.
Not really. You said 2/3rds of the possessions resulted in a turnover or a blocked shot. There were 0 turnovers over that stretch and even without the desperation shots at the end, there were more non-blocked shots than blocked shots, a far cry from 2/3rds. And just like the people who were saying "any layup is a good attempt" were wrong, your stance that "any blocked shot is a bad attempt" is just as wrong. Sometimes, a defender makes a really great play to block a good shot. Sometimes, the offensive player gets fouled but the refs let em play and it goes in the score sheet as a blocked shot.
Sometimes when a team isn't scoring it is because they ran bad offense (Ok State). Other times it is because the other team played good defense (UCLA). Other times they run good offense and the other team plays bad defense but the shots just don't go in.
Wojo is who he is as a coach. Six games gives us a good idea of this team. I figure .500 in conf. play. Good enough for the ncaa tourney..if there is one?
Dey didant play angry enuff, aina?
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 12, 2020, 09:45:22 AM
I agree that this loss wasn't all on coaching and gameplan. Maybe even moreso the inherent limitations of the players on this team.
But I don't think it makes any type of logical sense to herald an "excellent gameplan" producing "excellent looks" when we went without a FG for multiple 5+ minute stretches of this game.
Coaches install offenses and game plans to put their players in the best position to succeed. That means to get the best look on a shot that is best suited for that player. That's all the coaches can do. They can't take the shot. the player has to make it. Some games, players are on and they are drilling all kinds of shots. Some days they can't make a layup. Most days they are normal.
We had an abnormally horrible shooting night from deep. On a normal night, we make 4 more and the game is different.
So yes, Coaching staff did a good job last night.
Quote from: MU24 on December 12, 2020, 12:36:10 PM
we beat Wisco so the rest of the season is playing with house money. Assuming the roster comes back next year we will stomp.
Cain not coming back would be fine.
huh?? ?-(
Quote from: MU24 on December 12, 2020, 12:36:10 PM
we beat Wisco so the rest of the season is playing with house money. Assuming the roster comes back next year we will stomp.
Cain not coming back would be fine.
Beating Bucky is nice, but it does NOT turn the rest of the season into 'house money.' I would trade that win for a top 4 finish in the BE in a New York minute.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 11, 2020, 11:20:01 PM
Honestly, was very pleased with the game until the under 8 timeout. That was a very good offense going against a very good defense and more often than not our defense was winning the battle. With Big East refs calling this game, we enter the last stretch up 10.
People will point to the turnovers and they aren't wrong...but they're not why we lost. They kept us from building a bigger lead before the end of the game...but in the critical stretch where UCLA won it, we committed 0 turnovers. The last turnover was the shot clock violation after UCLA had just hit 2 FTs to break a 56-56 tie. From that point on, we played turnover free basketball....but couldn't score.
I don't know this for sure, but I suspect during the under 8 timeout, Wojo instructed his players to attack UCLA's defense and try to win the game at the foul line. Not a bad strategy considering the way the game had been called. First offensive play after the timeout got Dawson to the line and a 4th foul on Jaquez. The next one was the shot clock violation. After that, 4 of the next 6 offensive possessions culminated in an attempted layup. Those 4 attempted layups resulted in 2 points (Koby's pocket pass to Cain) and 3 blocked shots. Credit to UCLA, 2 of the blocks were clearly clean and 1 may have been a foul but if it was, not an obvious one. Great defensive effort by UCLA to challenge those shots without fouling.
While I don't fault Wojo for the decision to try to win at the free throw line, I do fault the decision to keep Lewis out of the game. I think Garcia earned his time by playing stellar D on Chris Smith most of the night, but we needed offense and Lewis was causing Bruins trouble every time he touched the ball. Should have put him in for the last 5 minutes.
Love aggressive Carton. Get that dude for 32 minutes a game and we won't have many problems on offense.
Oso, way to step up when your number is called. Dexter, nice assist?
We are not a great three point shooting team, but we are better than 4/20. Cain had 2 wide open looks that wouldn't fall. Greg missed a pair of open looks he usually hits. Carton started with 2 makes and missed some clean looks after that. All 4 of Dawson's misses were in rhythm, one was 75% down before popping back up. We shoot even 35% from range tonight and we win the game.
Don't have to go too deep into the weeds to analyze this one. Foul trouble, turnovers, and ice cold three point shooting was the story. Great defense and rebounding can make up for two of those but not all three.
So PAC12 refs call a tighter game than Big East Refs? Can a coach make adjustments on how the refs are calling the game? I have to say the Refs took out our bigs early in the game and with young players like Dawson and Lewis frustration can build up quickly. Theo is Theo. I didn't see the game just listened to Homer.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 11, 2020, 11:29:39 PM
Haha, no. I was just referencing the incident from last year that became a big brouhaha on here. I have never, and would never, boo amateur athletes. Except for the Badgers.
Just FWIW.... the fan wasn't even heckling Markus that pissed off Markus' dad. He was yelling that Wojo should be fired over and over and over again and Markus' dad basically walked up and told him he was being disrespectful and to stop. Then Markus' mom stood and and also said the same thing.... I think it's hilarious that people think the whole issue between Markus' parents and the fan actually revolved around Markus. I heard/saw the whole thing 10 feet away from me.... his dad was actually super reserved/classy for how obnoxious the dude was the entire game.
Quote from: T.V. Diener 34 on December 12, 2020, 05:46:32 PM
Just FWIW.... the fan wasn't even heckling Markus that pissed off Markus' dad. He was yelling that Wojo should be fired over and over and over again and Markus' dad basically walked up and told him he was being disrespectful and to stop. Then Markus' mom stood and and also said the same thing.... I think it's hilarious that people think the whole issue between Markus' parents and the fan actually revolved around Markus. I heard/saw the whole thing 10 feet away from me.... his dad was actually super reserved/classy for how obnoxious the dude was the entire game.
Interesting to hear, thanks for the info.
Quote from: T.V. Diener 34 on December 12, 2020, 05:46:32 PM
Just FWIW.... the fan wasn't even heckling Markus that pissed off Markus' dad. He was yelling that Wojo should be fired over and over and over again and Markus' dad basically walked up and told him he was being disrespectful and to stop. Then Markus' mom stood and and also said the same thing.... I think it's hilarious that people think the whole issue between Markus' parents and the fan actually revolved around Markus. I heard/saw the whole thing 10 feet away from me.... his dad was actually super reserved/classy for how obnoxious the dude was the entire game.
You weren't seated too far from me. The worst thing about it is that the douchenozzle was seated a few rows behind a top 75 recruit who was on an official visit. He seemed...uncomfortable during the incident. He plays for someone else now.
Before anyone jumps on me, no I'm not saying this is THE reason the recruit didn't come to Marquette. But I'm sure it didn't help.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 12, 2020, 08:26:14 PM
You weren't seated too far from me. The worst thing about it is that the douchenozzle was seated a few rows behind a top 75 recruit who was on an official visit. He seemed...uncomfortable during the incident. He plays for someone else now.
Before anyone jumps on me, no I'm not saying this is THE reason the recruit didn't come to Marquette. But I'm sure it didn't help.
Who was the recruit
?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 12, 2020, 08:26:14 PM
You weren't seated too far from me. The worst thing about it is that the douchenozzle was seated a few rows behind a top 75 recruit who was on an official visit. He seemed...uncomfortable during the incident. He plays for someone else now.
Before anyone jumps on me, no I'm not saying this is THE reason the recruit didn't come to Marquette. But I'm sure it didn't help.
Did the fan get kicked out of the game, or did he just shut up after Markus' parents spoke to him?
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 12, 2020, 08:31:27 PM
Did the fan get kicked out of the game, or did he just shut up after Markus' parents spoke to him?
Didn't you claim his family would have an entire section of fans kicked out of Fiserv like they did the fan last season? So in reality you didn't know anything and we're just trying to knock Markus/his family without knowing anything about what happened.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 12, 2020, 02:08:13 PM
Who's our best shooter? True freshman Dawson? Cain (who has been inconsistent his whole career at MU)? Koby? I truly don't know if we have a consistent deep jump shooter. Markus Howard is not walking back through that door. Deep jump shots and highly contested shots in the lane are just not excellent looks for this Marquette team.
"Excellent looks" are defined by the team you have, their strengths, what the defense is giving you, and what your offense can get you. The shots we were taking at the end of the game were not excellent looks.
The two biggest misses IMHO were the wide-open 3s, on excellent offensive plays, by Cain and Garcia. Both went in-and-out. Garcia's was about 75% down.
Cain is a 39% career 3-point shooter who was 8-for-21 (.381) this season before last night. Garcia, a great shooter in high school, was 7-for-12 (.583) this season behind the arc going into last night.
So yes, I will gladly take a wide-open 3 within the flow of the offense from either or both of them. Koby has shot pretty well this season, too.
And as I said earlier, Garcia also had two pretty easy little hooks in the lane but missed them, both on nice post entries.
Look, our offense wasn't good enough last night down the stretch. I am not trying to say the coaching was brilliant; indeed, I said the opposite in my earlier post. But to suggest that Marquette did not have a number of very good shots -- including those two wide-open 3s from two good shooters -- that seems like trying to nitpick for the sake of nitpicking.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 12, 2020, 08:31:27 PM
Did the fan get kicked out of the game, or did he just shut up after Markus' parents spoke to him?
The fan got kicked out with a police escort... the dude was with a buddy and he seemed totally embarrassed... the fact that people think Markus' parents were in the wrong is hilarious and the fact that people think that it had anything to do with Markus is even worse... I wanted to do the same thing that Markus' dad did but didn't want to make a scene so God bless him for having more balls than me
Quote from: MU82 on December 12, 2020, 10:14:48 PM
Look, our offense wasn't good enough last night down the stretch. I am not trying to say the coaching was brilliant; indeed, I said the opposite in my earlier post. But to suggest that Marquette did not have a number of very good shots -- including those two wide-open 3s from two good shooters -- that seems like trying to nitpick for the sake of nitpicking.
And I'm genuinely not trying to pile on Wojo or the coaching staff (this time around). As I said earlier, our struggles offensively may just be due to the inherent limitations of what this team is.
However, I just cannot accept that we got consistently "excellent looks" off a consistently "excellent gameplan" last night when we had multiple 5-or-so-minute scoring droughts. Those two ideas just do not coexist unless you're having the unluckiest shooting night in the history of basketball.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 12, 2020, 10:31:37 PM
And I'm genuinely not trying to pile on Wojo or the coaching staff (this time around). As I said earlier, our struggles offensively may just be due to the inherent limitations of what this team is.
However, I just cannot accept that we got consistently "excellent looks" off a consistently "excellent gameplan" last night when we had multiple 5-or-so-minute scoring droughts. Those two ideas just do not coexist unless you're having the unluckiest shooting night in the history of basketball.
Unless you are talking about real time, not game time, we had 0 5-minute scoring droughts last night. The longest scoring drought of the game was 4 minutes and 10 seconds and happened towards the end of the first half. UCLA stretched their lead by 3 during this drought. The second longest of the game was 2:55 and happened in the second half. This was the key stretch where UCLA took control, stretching their lead by 7.
Using game time to measure droughts isn't the best. A scoring drought of 1 minute that features 6 empty offensive possessions is twice as bad as a scoring drought of 5 minutes that only contains 3 empty possessions. For example, the second scoring drought I mentioned above was three empty offensive possessions: a bad possession that resulted in a shot clock violation, a good possession the resulted in a missed open three, and a bad possession that featured a wild drive and stuffed shot. Considering they scored on the possession before this drought and the possession after, the pattern was good play (DG draws foul), bad play (shot clock), good play (missed open 3 for career 38% 3P shooter), bad play (wild drive and stuff), good play (KM pocket pass to JC for easy layup). On a possession by possession basis, it wasn't that bad of a stretch. It seemed worse because the pace was slow so a lot of time ticked off and because UCLA had 3 consecutive scoring possessions, 2 of which were atrocious foul calls IMHO (and Walton's HO too). The third, Tyger Campbell schooled our D for an easy alley oop.
TLDR: You are right that teams that have "multiple 5-or-so-minute scoring droughts" don't usually have excellent looks or excellent gameplans. The thing is, we didn't have multiple 5 or so minute scoring droughts last night, so your logic doesn't apply here. Plus, measuring scoring droughts in minutes is misleading at best.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 12, 2020, 11:10:58 PM
TLDR: You are right that teams that have "multiple 5-or-so-minute scoring droughts" don't usually have excellent looks or excellent gameplans. The thing is, we didn't have multiple 5 or so minute scoring droughts last night, so your logic doesn't apply here. Plus, measuring scoring droughts in minutes is misleading at best.
Ok we had a 3 minute and 4 minute scoring drought. During the 3 minute drought UCLA scored 7 points on 4 possessions. I don't think measuring droughts in game time is "misleading at best". It's literally the stretch of play you can point to and say UCLA won the game. You even said it in your own post.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 12, 2020, 11:20:53 PM
Ok we had a 3 minute and 4 minute scoring drought. During the 3 minute drought UCLA scored 7 points on 4 possessions.
Actually they scored 7 points in 3 possessions. But that's irrelevant to the conversation about Marquette's scoring drought other than making the drought seem worse than it was because UCLA was scoring.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 12, 2020, 11:20:53 PM
I don't think measuring droughts in game time is "misleading at best". It's literally the stretch of play you can point to and say UCLA won the game. You even said it in your own post.
I mean, you can think that but you would be incorrect. There's a reason why basketball analytics relies on tempo-free stats.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 12, 2020, 10:31:37 PM
And I'm genuinely not trying to pile on Wojo or the coaching staff (this time around). As I said earlier, our struggles offensively may just be due to the inherent limitations of what this team is.
However, I just cannot accept that we got consistently "excellent looks" off a consistently "excellent gameplan" last night when we had multiple 5-or-so-minute scoring droughts. Those two ideas just do not coexist unless you're having the unluckiest shooting night in the history of basketball.
Your numerous "misrememberings" about what actually happened last night strain your credibility.
We do agree that the offense needed to be better down the stretch. We disagree that the wide-open looks for Cain and Garcia. I say they were excellent looks, and stats say they were excellent looks, and had they gone in it likely would have changed the game. Unfortunately, they didn't go in; that's basketball.
Quote from: MU82 on December 13, 2020, 12:16:26 AM
Your numerous "misrememberings" about what actually happened last night strain your credibility.
We do agree that the offense needed to be better down the stretch. We disagree that the wide-open looks for Cain and Garcia. I say they were excellent looks, and stats say they were excellent looks, and had they gone in it likely would have changed the game. Unfortunately, they didn't go in; that's basketball.
Numerous misrememberings, come on. Sorry I don't have the play by play box score pulled up to correct my "5-or-so" to the appropriate 4:10.
You summarized our quarrel appropriately. Until these "excellent looks" are finished with consistency, I won't concede that they're "excellent looks" for this particular basketball team.
What is a true excellent look for this team? I don't know right now. Give me a couple Big East games to decide. But the defense is athletic and capable enough to keep them in games while they're still trying to figure that out.
In today's basketball, wide-open 3s for 40%-ish (or better) 3-point shooters are "excellent looks." Period.
Also, the two baby hooks that Garcia took are excellent looks; he has made many of them this season but those didn't go in last night.
I am mostly concerned that sometimes we get dribble happy and stand around watching the dribbler, which leads to late-clock shots (and occasional violations), and sometimes we commit turnovers on what should be pretty routine perimeter passes. When those lead to live-ball breakouts for the opponents, that's doubly bad.
But I think most teams at this level would take wide-open looks by 40% shooters. Through our first 5 1/2 games, we were shooting pretty darn well from behind the arc. I'm not going to say that going 0-11 in one half of one game proves anything different.
Cant say ciz its to ******* special i guess. good for u knowing the inside info. ur special. im dumb and u cant share this info cuz it will lead to chaos. colll
5Dollar should probably just log off at this point.
(http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2jjt8h5vK1rtlk9qo1_500.gif)
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on December 12, 2020, 11:20:53 PM
Ok we had a 3 minute and 4 minute scoring drought. During the 3 minute drought UCLA scored 7 points on 4 possessions. I don't think measuring droughts in game time is "misleading at best". It's literally the stretch of play you can point to and say UCLA won the game. You even said it in your own post.
Maybe it is time to stop making sh!t up?
"Ok, I'm wrong about everything but my points still stand!"
Quote from: Johnny B on December 13, 2020, 01:53:08 AM
Cant say ciz its to ******* special i guess. good for u knowing the inside info. ur special. im dumb and u cant share this info cuz it will lead to chaos. colll
Anyone got a guess what happened here? Johnny, you feeling okay buddy?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 13, 2020, 08:25:33 AM
Anyone got a guess what happened here? Johnny, you feeling okay buddy?
Looks like drunk posting, then trying to amend it while still drunk. But just a guess at interpreting 1:53 am posting.
Quote from: Johnny B on December 13, 2020, 01:53:08 AM
Cant say ciz its to ******* special i guess. good for u knowing the inside info. ur special. im dumb and u cant share this info cuz it will lead to chaos. colll
I remember my first beer.
Quote from: Johnny B on December 13, 2020, 01:53:08 AM
Cant say ciz its to ******* special i guess. good for u knowing the inside info. ur special. im dumb and u cant share this info cuz it will lead to chaos. colll
And that pretty much sums things up.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 13, 2020, 08:25:33 AM
Anyone got a guess what happened here? Johnny, you feeling okay buddy?
Johnny just started his grain-free diet.
And that's the EDITED version!
And Johnny is my main man.
He's the keeper of the keys,
He'll put your mind at ease,
He's guaranteed to please,
Back by popular demand!
Look around, my little friend,
Jubilation in the land,
Freddie get ready Rock steady
When Johnny strikes up the band!
Quote from: MU82 on December 13, 2020, 09:44:16 AM
And that's the EDITED version!
And Johnny is my main man.
He's the keeper of the keys,
He'll put your mind at ease,
He's guaranteed to please,
Back by popular demand!
Look around, my little friend,
Jubilation in the land,
Freddie get ready Rock steady
When Johnny strikes up the band!
Love Warren! Rest his soul.
Quote from: MU24 on December 12, 2020, 12:36:10 PM
we beat Wisco so the rest of the season is playing with house money. Assuming the roster comes back next year we will stomp.
Cain not coming back would be fine.
Our super bowl
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 13, 2020, 07:21:52 AM
5Dollar should probably just log off at this point.
I'm sorry that you're so angry all the time.. Truly.
I think some posters have trouble looking at one game vs. the whole season.
We all want MU to be better than they have been under Wojo and I have no problem with that. However, I see no reason to go off the wall when we lose a game we were not favored to win. Some posters are not able to recognize that team that was suppose to win won. I assume we are going go through all of this again, if we lose at Creighton. A little hint here, we are expected to lose that game. Hopefully, we will win, but the odds are we will lose.
Quote from: bilsu on December 13, 2020, 11:11:43 AM
I think some posters have trouble looking at one game vs. the whole season.
We all want MU to be better than they have been under Wojo and I have no problem with that. However, I see no reason to go off the wall when we lose a game we were not favored to win. Some posters are not able to recognize that team that was suppose to win won. I assume we are going go through all of this again, if we lose at Creighton. A little hint here, we are expected to lose that game. Hopefully, we will win, but the odds are we will lose.
MU really has no shot against Creighton, to many of there players can hit three's and MU likes to double and triple the post. Have to stay on there shooters and MU
leaves to many open shots. In a shoot out in the past, MU had scorers, this year not so much. Will not be able to keep up, minimum of a10 plus point loss. If Wojo
wants to keep the score in the 70's, MU will have to play error free ball. Not sure about that.
Quote from: BCHoopster on December 13, 2020, 11:28:55 AM
MU really has no shot against Creighton, to many of there players can hit three's and MU likes to double and triple the post. Have to stay on there shooters and MU
leaves to many open shots. In a shoot out in the past, MU had scorers, this year not so much. Will not be able to keep up, minimum of a10 plus point loss. If Wojo
wants to keep the score in the 70's, MU will have to play error free ball. Not sure about that.
Of course we have a shot. Just have to play really well.
Quote from: BCHoopster on December 13, 2020, 11:28:55 AM
MU really has no shot against Creighton, to many of there players can hit three's and MU likes to double and triple the post. Have to stay on there shooters and MU
leaves to many open shots. In a shoot out in the past, MU had scorers, this year not so much. Will not be able to keep up, minimum of a10 plus point loss. If Wojo
wants to keep the score in the 70's, MU will have to play error free ball. Not sure about that.
I also think we will probably lose to Creighton, but...
MU is 41st in the country in 3P FG defense. Our opponents are only shooting 26.5% from deep. If we can hold Creighton to 26% from 3, we've got a good chance to win.
(Several of the 40 teams ahead of us have played only 1 or 2 games. IPFW is the leader nationally...1 game...their opponent shot 1-28)
wow... no more bottom shelf booze for me :-X
I would like to see the defense a bit more compact with some switching vs. Creighton. If they hit a lot of off the dribble 3s you can deal with that. If we do a lot of hard hedging they'll probably be able to beat our rotations with quick passes. That's where they've excelled in the games I've seen.
Hope MU slows the pace down quite a bit but haven't seen anything to indicate that they will.
Quote from: Johnny B on December 13, 2020, 01:37:14 PM
wow... no more bottom shelf booze for me :-X
Better than taking home a regrettable choice.
Quote from: Johnny B on December 13, 2020, 01:37:14 PM
wow... no more bottom shelf booze for me :-X
What? That was your most logical post of 2020.
Quote from: Johnny B on December 13, 2020, 01:37:14 PM
wow... no more bottom shelf booze for me :-X
I invite you to investigate this thread
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=44842.msg652261#msg652261