Thoughts?
Is the Pope Catholic?
Logical. I have been making a nearly verbatim argument for 25 years.
And it is consistent with the argument the supreme court made. Under the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment, in my opinion, it is an inevitable conclusion.
Love is good.
Hate is bad.
It couldn't be simpler.
It's a very obvious solution. All the nightmare scenarios around marriage equality have been proven to be exaggerated.
Also recommend Pope Francis' latest encyclical, Fratelli Tutti.
http://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20201003_enciclica-fratelli-tutti.pdf
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
If the Pope is saying the word of God is not true then I have a problem with the Pope; he should know better. If the Pope is saying we should love one another even if one does the abominable I don't have a problem with that.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on October 22, 2020, 11:13:55 AM
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
If the Pope is saying the word of God is not true then I have a problem with the Pope; he should know better. If the Pope is saying we should love one another even if one does the abominable I don't have a problem with that.
You have a problem with the dogma of papal infallibility then?
Quote from: muwarrior69 on October 22, 2020, 11:13:55 AM
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
If the Pope is saying the word of God is not true then I have a problem with the Pope; he should know better. If the Pope is saying we should love one another even if one does the abominable I don't have a problem with that.
Leviticus outlaws pretty much everything. I mean, do you wear clothes woven with two types of material? (Lev. 19:19) Do you cut the sides of your head and trim your beard? (Lev. 19:28) I guess we just pick and chose what Old Testament rules we are going to follow when it is convenient for us.
Anyway, that's not his point. The Church isn't going to be conducting these ceremonies. Civil authorities are. The Church can chose whomever it wants to marry. He's talking about a civil, equality issue.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on October 22, 2020, 11:13:55 AM
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
If the Pope is saying the word of God is not true then I have a problem with the Pope; he should know better. If the Pope is saying we should love one another even if one does the abominable I don't have a problem with that.
Do you wear mixed fibers? Have you ever touched or shared a couch with a woman while she's on her period? Shaved? Planted a garden with more than one kind of vegetable? Sold land?
If you've done any of the above, you violated the word of God.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 22, 2020, 11:19:58 AM
You have a problem with the dogma of papal infallibility then?
It seems like you don't quite understand the teaching of infallibility. Everything the pope says does not fall under this category.
https://www.catholic.com/tract/papal-infallibility
Yeah, Leviticus is some serious shyte.
When folks start quoting Leviticus in an attempt to keep their 1950s (or 50s A.D.) world intact, you know they are desperate AF.
I mean, among those who Leviticus says must get stoned to death in the village square: kids who don't listen to their parents; anybody who says goddam it; anybody who doesn't observe the Sabbath.
And not the good kind of "stoned"!
Quote from: buckchuckler on October 22, 2020, 11:47:47 AM
It seems like you don't quite understand the teaching of infallibility. Everything the pope says does not fall under this category.
https://www.catholic.com/tract/papal-infallibility
Thank you for the lesson. I apparently did not. I will leave it to those that have pointed out a million other instances of picking and choosing scripture
And make sure you get a good price when you sell your daughter.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on October 22, 2020, 11:21:26 AM
Leviticus outlaws pretty much everything. I mean, do you wear clothes woven with two types of material? (Lev. 19:19) Do you cut the sides of your head and trim your beard? (Lev. 19:28) I guess we just pick and chose what Old Testament rules we are going to follow when it is convenient for us.
Anyway, that's not his point. The Church isn't going to be conducting these ceremonies. Civil authorities are. The Church can chose whomever it wants to marry. He's talking about a civil, equality issue.
Then we are in agreement.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on October 22, 2020, 12:53:55 PM
Then we are in agreement.
I'm genuinely curious 69, what do you think of the rest of the rules in Leviticus? Are they also the word of God and meant to be taken literally?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on October 22, 2020, 12:56:39 PM
I'm genuinely curious 69, what do you think of the rest of the rules in Leviticus? Are they also the word of God and meant to be taken literally?
I especially like the one that holds the adulteress, and not hubby, responsible for a guy cheatin' on his missus.
As a Catholic I always figured the Old Testament as just background information not really instructional. The important stuff was all in the New Testament.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on October 22, 2020, 11:13:55 AM
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
If the Pope is saying the word of God is not true then I have a problem with the Pope; he should know better. If the Pope is saying we should love one another even if one does the abominable I don't have a problem with that.
Alternatively said:
"I think gay people are icky, and here is a bible verse that has been translated and interpreted multiple times before reaching English. Also, I am a hypocrite."
Quote from: muwarrior69 on October 22, 2020, 11:13:55 AM
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
If the Pope is saying the word of God is not true then I have a problem with the Pope; he should know better. If the Pope is saying we should love one another even if one does the abominable I don't have a problem with that.
First, good for Pope Francis. It's never too late learn and evolve. (Long way to go too)
Fun with scripture. I'll play:
Leviticus 25:44-46
"Slaves may be kept as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property."
Expert analysis: Slavery is bad and maybe encouraging it isn't a good idea.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Ancient scripture says that a disobedient child can be taken by his parents to the city gate and stoned to death.
Expert analysis: Stoning kids to death might not be a great idea.
But let's get back to LGBTQ people for a minute. There's this thing called The New Testament that amends the Old and all that came long before.
Acts 13:39
"By this Jesus everyone who believes is set free from all those sins from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses."
II Corinthians 3:6
"a new covenant, not of letter but of spirit; for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life."
There are 800,000 words in the bible. One can find a verse somewhere to support just about any agenda.
Maybe try this one:
John 15:12
"This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S1-ip47WYWc
President Bartlet made the Bible verse point masterfully.
I like the bible verse in my signature.
Pope Francis is dancing a very fine line on this one. He's saying it's OK for civil authorities to recognize gay unions but he stubbornly holds to tired and worn out Roman Catholic doctrine that spiritual and sacramental unions -- otherwise known as marriage -- can only be recognized when the participants have complementary rather than parallel plumbing. Such civil unions advocated by the Pope promote what the Catholic Church believes to be a state of serious -- or mortal -- sin.
In other words, do as I say, not as I do.
The Pope spends a great deal of time telling us that God made us all in his image and likeness. He reiterates that God does not make "junk" and yet he hangs on to the notion that gay and lesbian people are somehow inferior and not worthy of the oneness that comes from Sacramental Marriage. It's the same absurd concept that deprives millions and millions of followers of Jesus from full participation with their faith because we steadfastly cling to a barbaric, medieval notion that only single men can be fully ordained Priests in our church.
I get that even the Pope -- a supposedly absolute monarch -- has limits as to what he can do. Catholic means universal and he has many cultures to consider. Moreover, this issue hits at one of the cores of Catholic teaching on human sexuality. To renounce it would be to call into question many more of the teachings that reflect the foundation of who we are as Catholics. But what's lost in the effort to protect the institution rather than its people is the concept of positive moral value. Positive moral value teaches we all are equal in God's eyes and that there are basic rights and virtues that define the best in us all. Monogamy is one of those positive moral values (yes, Dr. Beach, the goofy tall guy in the back of the class was listening) and it does not matter your gender. I doubt God offers his sanctifying grace predicated on genital function. If two lesbians or two gay men, love each other and care deeply about each other, they've received the sacrament, whether some priest says so or not.
Even the Church has to change or its leaders will be held accountable by Him!
Well said Dgies!
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 23, 2020, 03:29:38 PM
Pope Francis is dancing a very fine line on this one. He's saying it's OK for civil authorities to recognize gay unions but he stubbornly holds to tired and worn out Roman Catholic doctrine that spiritual and sacramental unions -- otherwise known as marriage -- can only be recognized when the participants have complementary rather than parallel plumbing. Such civil unions advocated by the Pope promote what the Catholic Church believes to be a state of serious -- or mortal -- sin.
In other words, do as I say, not as I do.
The Pope spends a great deal of time telling us that God made us all in his image and likeness. He reiterates that God does not make "junk" and yet he hangs on to the notion that gay and lesbian people are somehow inferior and not worthy of the oneness that comes from Sacramental Marriage. It's the same absurd concept that deprives millions and millions of followers of Jesus from full participation with their faith because we steadfastly cling to a barbaric, medieval notion that only single men can be fully ordained Priests in our church.
I get that even the Pope -- a supposedly absolute monarch -- has limits as to what he can do. Catholic means universal and he has many cultures to consider. Moreover, this issue hits at one of the cores of Catholic teaching on human sexuality. To renounce it would be to call into question many more of the teachings that reflect the foundation of who we are as Catholics. But what's lost in the effort to protect the institution rather than its people is the concept of positive moral value. Positive moral value teaches we all are equal in God's eyes and that there are basic rights and virtues that define the best in us all. Monogamy is one of those positive moral values (yes, Dr. Beach, the goofy tall guy in the back of the class was listening) and it does not matter your gender. I doubt God offers his sanctifying grace predicated on genital function. If two lesbians or two gay men, love each other and care deeply about each other, they've received the sacrament, whether some priest says so or not.
Even the Church has to change or its leaders will be held accountable by Him!
Perfecto!
The pope took some baby steps. Change is difficult, especially in old institutions. But you of course are absolutely correct.
It is a small but important step. It is going to take another century (if we still exist in a century) before religions catch up to that particular aspect of society.
Going where the people are. New poll says 70% of Americans support gay marriage
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 23, 2020, 03:29:38 PM
Pope Francis is dancing a very fine line on this one. He's saying it's OK for civil authorities to recognize gay unions but he stubbornly holds to tired and worn out Roman Catholic doctrine that spiritual and sacramental unions -- otherwise known as marriage -- can only be recognized when the participants have complementary rather than parallel plumbing. Such civil unions advocated by the Pope promote what the Catholic Church believes to be a state of serious -- or mortal -- sin.
In other words, do as I say, not as I do.
The Pope spends a great deal of time telling us that God made us all in his image and likeness. He reiterates that God does not make "junk" and yet he hangs on to the notion that gay and lesbian people are somehow inferior and not worthy of the oneness that comes from Sacramental Marriage. It's the same absurd concept that deprives millions and millions of followers of Jesus from full participation with their faith because we steadfastly cling to a barbaric, medieval notion that only single men can be fully ordained Priests in our church.
I get that even the Pope -- a supposedly absolute monarch -- has limits as to what he can do. Catholic means universal and he has many cultures to consider. Moreover, this issue hits at one of the cores of Catholic teaching on human sexuality. To renounce it would be to call into question many more of the teachings that reflect the foundation of who we are as Catholics. But what's lost in the effort to protect the institution rather than its people is the concept of positive moral value. Positive moral value teaches we all are equal in God's eyes and that there are basic rights and virtues that define the best in us all. Monogamy is one of those positive moral values (yes, Dr. Beach, the goofy tall guy in the back of the class was listening) and it does not matter your gender. I doubt God offers his sanctifying grace predicated on genital function. If two lesbians or two gay men, love each other and care deeply about each other, they've received the sacrament, whether some priest says so or not.
Even the Church has to change or its leaders will be held accountable by Him!
Kind of like women having the wrong plumbing to be priests.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on October 22, 2020, 04:24:08 PM
As a Catholic I always figured the Old Testament as just background information not really instructional. The important stuff was all in the New Testament.
Bingo
More signs of this pope realizing it's the 21st century ...
ROME — Pope Francis said Sunday he would elevateArchbishop Wilton Gregory of Washington to cardinal next month, making him the first African American to hold the title.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/pope-cardinal-gregory-dc/2020/10/25/5a24cfe4-16b5-11eb-8bda-814ca56e138b_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F2c53831%2F5f959e9d9d2fda0efb53f4f5%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F29%2F64%2Fb3563592a6e9cbfdd26e210ad7669201
Gregory, 72, is one of 13 cardinals in the new class announced by Francis on Sunday, a promotion that comes as he is trying to rebuild trust in an archdiocese rocked by sexual abuse cases.
The move was widely anticipated; Washington archbishops are typically elevated to cardinal after their appointments. But it's nonetheless symbolically significant in the U.S. Catholic Church, where Blacks have been underrepresented among the leadership.
Chicago native. Good guy. I know people who know him well, I am sure it's killing them that they can't see him installed.
Quote from: warriorchick on October 24, 2020, 05:24:39 PM
Kind of like women having the wrong plumbing to be priests.
Or as my late Mother used to say, " You mean I can't be a priest because I don't have a prostate gland?"
Quote from: Warriors4ever on October 25, 2020, 11:33:52 AM
Chicago native. Good guy. I know people who know him well, I am sure it's killing them that they can't see him installed.
Bishop Gregory confirmed me.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 26, 2020, 12:14:58 PM
Bishop Gregory confirmed me.
He confirmed one of my sons.
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 26, 2020, 11:15:29 AM
Or as my late Mother used to say, " You mean I can't be a priest because I don't have a prostate gland?"
Well, that and she was married. Another stupid rule.
Quote from: MU82 on October 25, 2020, 11:27:59 AM
More signs of this pope realizing it's the 21st century ...
ROME — Pope Francis said Sunday he would elevateArchbishop Wilton Gregory of Washington to cardinal next month, making him the first African American to hold the title.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/pope-cardinal-gregory-dc/2020/10/25/5a24cfe4-16b5-11eb-8bda-814ca56e138b_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F2c53831%2F5f959e9d9d2fda0efb53f4f5%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F29%2F64%2Fb3563592a6e9cbfdd26e210ad7669201
Gregory, 72, is one of 13 cardinals in the new class announced by Francis on Sunday, a promotion that comes as he is trying to rebuild trust in an archdiocese rocked by sexual abuse cases.
The move was widely anticipated; Washington archbishops are typically elevated to cardinal after their appointments. But it's nonetheless symbolically significant in the U.S. Catholic Church, where Blacks have been underrepresented among the leadership.
Well earned.
And it would not have happened under past more Conservative Popes. Diversity was not a priority in the past. And, change and nclusivity weren't prioritizes either.
There are only about a half dozen of them. Interestingly enough several came through the St. Louis area, Wilton Gregory, Terry Steib, Ed Braxton. It also happens to be a future Cardinal feeder system as this makes 7 Cardinals that came through that area. More recently, Justin Rigali, Raymond Burke and Tim Dolan, who couldn't have more different views on many topics as Gregory except one, sexual abuse. While Gregory has been a leader in the movement, both have had a no tolerance policy with it, when many others didn't take enough or any action.
Quote from: shoothoops on October 27, 2020, 09:23:27 AM
Well earned.
And it would not have happened under past more Conservative Popes. Diversity was not a priority in the past. And, change and nclusivity weren't prioritizes either.
Uhhh, what? This makes no sense. The Catholic Church is probably the most diverse group in the world. Like for instance, there are more Catholics in Sub-Saharan Africa than there are in North America (about twice as many). There are more Catholics in Asia than in North America. And most of North America's Catholics are in Mexico. And there are more Catholics in Brazil than in any other country. Followed by Mexico, then the Philippines.
So, yeah, diversity and inclusivity aren't priorities I guess.
Quote from: buckchuckler on October 27, 2020, 12:08:16 PM
Uhhh, what? This makes no sense. The Catholic Church is probably the most diverse group in the world. Like for instance, there are more Catholics in Sub-Saharan Africa than there are in North America (about twice as many). There are more Catholics in Asia than in North America. And most of North America's Catholics are in Mexico. And there are more Catholics in Brazil than in any other country. Followed by Mexico, then the Philippines.
So, yeah, diversity and inclusivity aren't priorities I guess.
Two things:
1) He's African American. Black Racial Diversity in the United States in the Catholic Church.
2) Diversity of thought in the Catholic Church.
As mentioned African American numbers are few.
Pope Benedict and others are much more Conservative in their Catholic beliefs and thought. There are very different views within the Catholic Church.
Quote from: buckchuckler on October 27, 2020, 12:08:16 PM
Uhhh, what? This makes no sense. The Catholic Church is probably the most diverse group in the world. Like for instance, there are more Catholics in Sub-Saharan Africa than there are in North America (about twice as many). There are more Catholics in Asia than in North America. And most of North America's Catholics are in Mexico. And there are more Catholics in Brazil than in any other country. Followed by Mexico, then the Philippines.
So, yeah, diversity and inclusivity aren't priorities I guess.
It seems to me he was speaking to church leadership, and what he said is true.
There have been Black priests in America since the mid 19th century, and yet there wasn't a Black cardinal until, well, now.
A Black priest wasn't elected to lead the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops until 2002. The first Latino president wasn't chosen until 2019.
For all its growth in Africa, Asia and South America, 61 percent of the College of Cardinals are either from Europe or North America. In fact, while only about 21 percent of Catholics live in Europe, about 46 percent of Cardinals are from Europe.
Heck, even the one and only non-European pope in church history is the son of an Italian immigrant.
And obviously women continue to have no place in church leadership.
So while you're correct that membership is quite diverse, leadership remains predominantly European and exclusively male.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 27, 2020, 12:27:05 PM
It seems to me he was speaking to church leadership, and what he said is true.
There have been Black priests in America since the mid 19th century, and yet there wasn't a Black cardinal until, well, now.
A Black priest wasn't elected to lead the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops until 2002. The first Latino president wasn't chosen until 2019.
For all its growth in Africa, Asia and South America, 61 percent of the College of Cardinals are either from Europe or North America. In fact, while only about 21 percent of Catholics live in Europe, about 46 percent of Cardinals are from Europe.
Heck, even the one and only non-European pope in church history is the son of an Italian immigrant.
And obviously women continue to have no place in church leadership.
So while you're correct that membership is quite diverse, leadership remains predominantly European and exclusively male.
Yes, I was speaking to power within the church both racially and views. And you can also add number of Catholics themselves. Only 4 percent of American Catholics are African American.
The common thread in this discussion is that we are a medieval European church. Our governance, our leadership and the way our church functions is based on a governing system that denigrated the common man by assuming he was illiterate and incapable of thinking for himself. Medieval bishops had torture chambers and regularly executed heretics just in case the faithful weren't faithful enough.
And, don't even get into the medieval role of women. Just ask Joan of Arc what happens when you push that envelope too far!
The problem the church has is that it is a human organization that too often tries to assume the role of God. Unlike God, it makes mistakes. And, unlike God, it should have to reverse itself. But the medieval leadership doesn't like to be told it's wrong, whether it be on sexual abuse, financial abuse, women, diversity and inclusion etc. It elevates much of this stuff (Pope John Paul II was especially good at this) to the category of infallible teaching handed down by God after prayerful thought. Don't want women ordained as priests? Simple, God told us this was the way to go! Or, it sweeps it under the rug and hope it goes away.
Unfortunately, there isn't an easy fix. Look at the difficulty Pope Francis has had on gays and lesbians, divorce and cleaning up the Roman Curia. Every time he tries, he ends up with Raymond Burke kicking his backside. The church also has a problem insofar as there are two camps -- Pope Benny's view that we should be an exclusive club of "true believers" and Pope Francis' view of a universal church built on love. The philosophies are incompatible and the result is that millions of Jesus' followers in Europe and, more recently, America are falling away and becoming agnostic, or worse.
It's only going to get worse with Covid-19. In the absence of church attendance, which has been restricted by gubernatorial fiat in places like New York, Illinois, California etc., and discouraged by many bishops concerned about their congregants' health, there is a default tendency to find another means of spiritual fulfillment. It's a little bit like a baseball strike where the owners face the question, "How do I get people back in my seats!"
In today's Catholic news:
https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly/status/1321452307880546304?s=19