MUScoop

Well, that's 6 seasons worth of work.

Quote from: 1SE on March 12, 2020, 12:09:29 PM
Well, that's 6 seasons worth of work.

still trying to wrap my head around this season is over

Crazy to watch it happen in real time.

Cue the Projos claiming we were just robbed of an Elite Eight season

Dude flunked out years ago, hey?

C- He's passing class but missing a lot of important things and fails to impress.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 12, 2020, 03:44:51 PM
C- He's passing class but missing a lot of important things and fails to impress.

This

Officially?  Incomplete.  He didn't turn in his final essay this year.

I am giving Wojo a F!

Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 12, 2020, 03:51:37 PM
Officially?  Incomplete.  He didn't turn in his final essay this year.

From prior experience, that'll get ya an F.

Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 12, 2020, 03:51:37 PM
Officially?  Incomplete.  He didn't turn in his final essay this year.

Great posturing to distract from Wojo's disaster.  Can always count on Rocky (and Petty).

 Ladies and gentlemen, this is Steve Wojo .....His G.P.A. is a solid 2.0!

Right in that meaty part of the curve - not showing off, not falling behind.

-George Costanza,

Are the "A's" trolls?

Quote from: houwarrior on March 12, 2020, 04:09:42 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, this is Steve Wojo .....His G.P.A. is a solid 2.0!

Right in that meaty part of the curve - not showing off, not falling behind.

-George Costanza,

The ironic part is that Wojo's GPA isn't high enough for his own prim and proper program.  If only coaches could become academically ineligible!

Give him an incomplete. I expected them to lose the next 2 games by 20. So, if they pulled an upset of SH, or won a game in the NCAA, the grade changes significantly.

It's really gonna eat at you folks that his final Kenpom #s from this year (#31) are better than  last year (#33), thus still improving.  lol.

Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 12, 2020, 04:14:15 PM
It's really gonna eat at you folks that his final Kenpom #s from this year (#31) are better than  last year (#33), thus still improving.  lol.

And better without the Hausers.  Maybe those comments weren't so moronic after all?  (It would be in teal, people, calm down)

Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 12, 2020, 04:14:15 PM
It's really gonna eat at you folks that his final Kenpom #s from this year (#31) are better than  last year (#33), thus still improving.  lol.

Just 4 spots behind 14-16 Minnesota.  I'll bet you wish we had a season like theirs!!

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 12, 2020, 04:18:08 PM
Just 4 spots behind 14-16 Minnesota.  I'll bet you wish we had a season like theirs!!

At least I never pined for a program like DePaul.  You're a real go-getter!
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=59473.0

Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 12, 2020, 04:20:56 PM
At least I never pined for a program like DePaul.  You're a real go-getter!
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=59473.0

Lol.

Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 12, 2020, 04:20:56 PM
At least I never pined for a program like DePaul.  You're a real go-getter!
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=59473.0

Goalposts shifted - very nice.

Also we went 1-1 against DePaul this year so not sure there's a whole lot of "I told you so" you're entitled to.

Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 12, 2020, 03:51:37 PM
Officially?  Incomplete.  He didn't turn in his final essay this year.

As much as I hate to say it, if his performance on the last couple of assignments is any indication, that might actually have helped his grade.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 12, 2020, 04:34:01 PM
Goalposts shifted - very nice.

Also we went 1-1 against DePaul this year so not sure there's a whole lot of "I told you so" you're entitled to.

Also we went 1-1 against Nova so maybe STFU and take the fact that it was an idiotic post from you and that Marquette Basketball isn't where we want it to be.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 12, 2020, 04:41:09 PM
Also we went 1-1 against Nova so maybe STFU and take the fact that it was an idiotic post from you and that Marquette Basketball isn't where we want it to be.

Did DePaul really have thaaaat much worse of a year than us?  16-16 versus 18-12.  And let's remember they were hot to end the season.

:-X

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 12, 2020, 04:34:01 PM
Goalposts shifted - very nice.

Also we went 1-1 against DePaul this year so not sure there's a whole lot of "I told you so" you're entitled to.

Lol. You got dunked on by Rocky

Quote from: jesmu84 on March 12, 2020, 04:47:27 PM
Lol. You got dunked on by Rocky

If you call bringing up and misquoting the same post as he/Petty always do to make valid criticisms of his posts go away getting "dunked on" - then yes, I was definitely dunked on...

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 12, 2020, 04:44:59 PM
Did DePaul really have thaaaat much worse of a year than us?  16-16 versus 18-12.  And let's remember they were hot to end the season.

:-X

Yes? We were a likely tournament team Depaul would maybe have been considered for the CBI

Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 12, 2020, 03:44:51 PM
C- He's passing class but missing a lot of important things and fails to impress.

Didn't Al say the world is run by C students!

Quote from: dgies9156 on March 12, 2020, 05:01:54 PM
Didn't Al say the world is run by C students!

Maybe so, but C coaches don't get too far for very long.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 12, 2020, 03:44:51 PM
C- He's passing class but missing a lot of important things and fails to impress.

C- as a cumulative GPA (1.7) will typically not be high enough to allow you to graduate at most colleges.

I want Wojo back and see what he does with the incoming freshman and the holdovers.  The alternative, if you let him go, is that you have a Nebraska type year.  I'm sure that would be fun.

Dunked like a 5 dollar donut.

Arby's.  I'm entertained by the team and will continue to be through good bad and mediocre.

Quote from: T-Bone on March 12, 2020, 07:54:00 PM
Dunked like a 5 dollar donut.

Arby's.  I'm entertained by the team and will continue to be through good bad and mediocre.

Glad to hear you have no standards and simply watch MUBB as a visual accompaniment to your jazz records.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 12, 2020, 08:12:53 PM
Glad to hear you have no standards and simply watch MUBB as a visual accompaniment to your jazz records.

Good luck in life.

Quote from: Eldon on March 12, 2020, 07:17:28 PM
C- as a cumulative GPA (1.7) will typically not be high enough to allow you to graduate at most colleges.

That was supposed to be a "C" then a dash mark

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 12, 2020, 04:44:59 PM
Did DePaul really have thaaaat much worse of a year than us?  16-16 versus 18-12.  And let's remember they were hot to end the season.

:-X

Bigger gap than us and Seton Hall with losses...

Quote from: 1SE on March 12, 2020, 04:10:06 PM
Are the "A's" trolls?

🤣🤣🤣

Quote from: TedBaxter on March 12, 2020, 07:52:15 PM
I want Wojo back and see what he does with the incoming freshman and the holdovers.  The alternative, if you let him go, is that you have a Nebraska type year.  I'm sure that would be fun.

That's really solid long term thinking for overall good of the program.   

Quote from: TedBaxter on March 12, 2020, 07:52:15 PM
I want Wojo back and see what he does with the incoming freshman and the holdovers.  The alternative, if you let him go, is that you have a Nebraska type year.  I'm sure that would be fun.

And the broken record plays......

What do you think this team will do next year?  It doesn't have the talent to make the NCAA tourney and isn't a lock to make the NIT.  No one on the roster can get their own shot.

Quote from: LoudMouth on March 12, 2020, 10:28:52 PM
Bigger gap than us and Seton Hall with losses...

And a smaller gap than between us and Creighton / Villanova.

Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 12, 2020, 04:14:15 PM
It's really gonna eat at you folks that his final Kenpom #s from this year (#31) are better than  last year (#33), thus still improving.  lol.

Yes losing 7 of last 8 is definitely improving, anyway you spin it.

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 12, 2020, 11:08:09 PM
That's really solid long term thinking for overall good of the program.

I am thinking long term.  This change a coach every 5 or 6 years puts this program into a reset and I want to see what Wojo can do with the returning players, the recruits and any other newcomers.  Just how I roll.

Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 12, 2020, 04:14:15 PM
It's really gonna eat at you folks that his final Kenpom #s from this year (#31) are better than  last year (#33), thus still improving.  lol.

Funny how the Kenpom #s and the eye test are at odds, especially with end of season tail spins.

Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on March 12, 2020, 11:45:07 PM
And the broken record plays......

What do you think this team will do next year?  It doesn't have the talent to make the NCAA tourney and isn't a lock to make the NIT.  No one on the roster can get their own shot.

We'll see.  Who do they add or lose this spring?  Do some of the returning players take the next step?  What recruit or recruits step into immediate playing time?  What does Wojo do with a more balanced team where he doesn't have 1 guy who is the focus?

Garcia averaged 31 points a game this year, but you know what impressed me most in the games I watched online or in game highlights?  His ability to get the ball to others for assists.  In his last game, Eden Prairie bodied him with 2 players and in the first half alone he had at least 4 assists passing out of the double team.  Osa is a good passer, Lewis a good passer.  I think Symir takes a step with more playing time.

Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 13, 2020, 06:48:30 AM
Funny how the Kenpom #s and the eye test are at odds, especially with end of season tail spins.

I do not understand the Projo faith in Kenpom.  Why is Kenpom better than NCAA tournament wins?
Is a #16 Kenpom better than a Sweet 16?  Should we even bother with the NCAA tournament and aim for a #1 Kenpom?

To be a fair comparison, you need to factor in a likely blowout loss to Seton Hall and then a mind-numbing crap your pants performance in the tourney to an average low-major team to this years kenpom numbers.   :P

Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 12, 2020, 04:14:15 PM
It's really gonna eat at you folks that his final Kenpom #s from this year (#31) are better than  last year (#33), thus still improving.  lol.

Quote from: TedBaxter on March 13, 2020, 06:40:15 AM
I am thinking long term.  This change a coach every 5 or 6 years puts this program into a reset and I want to see what Wojo can do with the returning players, the recruits and any other newcomers.  Just how I roll.

Sew yur doublin' down, hey?

Quote from: PointWarrior on March 13, 2020, 07:30:07 AM
To be a fair comparison, you need to factor in a likely blowout loss to Seton Hall and then a mind-numbing crap your pants performance in the tourney to an average low-major team to this years kenpom numbers.   :P

And at this point, as we saw with a loss to DePaul, it's a sample size of one game while the KenPom or NET numbers are looking at that one game PLUS the 30-40 games a team played throughout the same season.  So even if the NoJo guarantee of how our next two games went, we probably would've still been right around 30-35 in KenPom and 25-30 in NET.

But it's no surprise you wouldn't understand that and would think those two results would drop us from 31 to...what, 131?

We should extend Wojo 5 or 6 years. I really want to see what he can do with his own recruits and give him plenty of time to install his culture. Putting pressure on him to win now is really unfair and mean.

Quote from: Boozemon Barro on March 13, 2020, 08:36:37 AM
We should extend Wojo 5 or 6 years. I really want to see what he can do with his own recruits and give him plenty of time to install his culture. Putting pressure on him to win now is really unfair and mean.

I'm excited to see what Wojo can do with the rebuild next year.  Boy the prior coach really left him with an empty cupboard.

Quote from: TedBaxter on March 13, 2020, 06:40:15 AM
I am thinking long term.  This change a coach every 5 or 6 years puts this program into a reset and I want to see what Wojo can do with the returning players, the recruits and any other newcomers.  Just how I roll.

I'm definitely in TB's camp.  Fire Wojo and one or more of the incoming probably bolt.  Get them on campus, see how they do. Then, if the year doesn't go well and they fire Wojo, the possibility of keeping them is greater than if they never got here. Since they'll have experienced Real Chili I mean.  Why leave then?

Oh, have transfers now bin eliminated two, hey?

Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 12, 2020, 04:20:56 PM
At least I never pined for a program like DePaul. 
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=59473.0

But who would have guessed that DePaul would win the final game of the BET?

Quote from: TedBaxter on March 13, 2020, 06:40:15 AM
I am thinking long term.  This change a coach every 5 or 6 years puts this program into a reset and I want to see what Wojo can do with the returning players, the recruits and any other newcomers.  Just how I roll.

That's certainly your prerogative!

But I am expecting to miss the NIT next year. Wojo in general performs to pre-season expectations.

Pre-season kenpom rank (End of season KenPom rank)

2015: 87 (93) no post-season
2016: 53 (97) no post-season
2017: 47 (32) first round NCAA blowout loss
2018: 49 (53) NIT
2019: 29 (33) first round NCAA blowout loss
2020: 18 (31) spiraling towards first round NCAA blowout loss

So... his only season overachieving vs. pre-season kenpom ratings ended in a first round NCAA blowout loss.

And his best comp for next year, the 2016 Ellenson season, was a drastic underperformance ending in no post-season.

Why do I bring this up? T-Rank already put out next year's on-paper rankings. We are rated #80. And yes that includes the incoming freshmen.

I would be shocked if we even make the NIT. Not sure why anyone would expect anything different at this point, there's an ample body of work. The guy just is what he is. No demonstration that he can make a team more than the sum of its parts in six years. Garcia will look awesome at times and we'll drain a bunch of threes against cupcakes and some mediocre competition. Then when the second half of the season comes around the defense will be a sieve and we'll hear about the freshman wall, why are guys missing open shots, we need a point guard, yada yada yada as we lose some winnable games on paper that we desperately need to win and miss the post season altogether. Garcia will go pro after averaging 18 & 8 while shooting a ton of threes, and the cycle of mediocrity will continue. What's the point.

Blecch. Snooze. Wake me up when we get a new coach. I've been an avid fan for 18 years, and I can't bring myself to care about next season. I've traveled to countless games, rearranged schedules & bent over backwards to watch nearly every game no matter the competition, often annoying my wife, family, friends, etc.

Next year I'll watch when it's convenient I guess? Maybe check in on the standings every once in a while? I just can't ignore the evidence. It's bad basketball, and it's disheartening.

Quote from: pettyworld on March 13, 2020, 07:57:13 AM
And at this point, as we saw with a loss to DePaul, it's a sample size of one game while the KenPom or NET numbers are looking at that one game PLUS the 30-40 games a team played throughout the same season.  So even if the NoJo guarantee of how our next two games went, we probably would've still been right around 30-35 in KenPom and 25-30 in NET.

But it's no surprise you wouldn't understand that and would think those two results would drop us from 31 to...what, 131?

Nobody cares about KenPom at this point.  Just give us results - any way you do it.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 13, 2020, 11:10:05 AM
Nobody cares about KenPom at this point.  Just give us results - any way you do it.

The season was cancelled.  You won't be getting the results.

It also seems like people do care about KenPom given the response was to a NoJo saying you need to factor in the blowout losses we would've received in the 2 games we won't be playing.

Do you ever get tired of making the same arguments over and over?

No surprise you think Kenpom 31 is a major accomplishment for Wojo - hang a banner!    Think of all the Badger top 10 kenpom banners the badgers would have....

Quote from: pettyworld on March 13, 2020, 07:57:13 AM
And at this point, as we saw with a loss to DePaul, it's a sample size of one game while the KenPom or NET numbers are looking at that one game PLUS the 30-40 games a team played throughout the same season.  So even if the NoJo guarantee of how our next two games went, we probably would've still been right around 30-35 in KenPom and 25-30 in NET.

But it's no surprise you wouldn't understand that and would think those two results would drop us from 31 to...what, 131?

Quote from: PointWarrior on March 13, 2020, 11:50:16 AM
No surprise you think Kenpom 31 is a major accomplishment for Wojo - hang a banner!    Think of all the Badger top 10 kenpom banners the badgers would have....

Yeah, never said Kenpom 31 is a major accomplishment for Wojo.  Was pointing out your stupidity in thinking that even had we gotten blown out in the first BET game we had and first NCAA Tournament game we had that there would be this major plummet to our KenPom number.

But good job shifting the goalposts.

Quote from: Boozemon Barro on March 13, 2020, 08:36:37 AM
We should extend Wojo 5 or 6 years. I really want to see what he can do with his own recruits and give him plenty of time to install his culture. Putting pressure on him to win now is really unfair and mean.

I agree with this analysis. Plus he's a first time head coach and really, this was his first time to coach through a cycle of "his guys."

Quote from: pettyworld on March 13, 2020, 11:25:35 AM
The season was cancelled.  You won't be getting the results.

Like we were getting them anyway. Pay no attention to the 5 years of zero results whatsoever combined with the 6 of 7 game losing streak. THIS was our year to make a run, and we were robbed of it by COVID19. Right, Petty?

Predictable response from a predictable poster.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 13, 2020, 12:53:28 PM
Like we were getting them anyway. Pay no attention to the 5 years of zero results whatsoever combined with the 6 of 7 game losing streak. THIS was our year to make a run, and we were robbed of it by COVID19. Right, Petty?

Predictable response from a predictable poster.

Let me know where any of that was said. Lol. Maybe learn how to read before responding from now on.

Any grade other than a C is either way too critical, or a gift.  I think we ended up right about (maybe 1 less BE win and 1 more non-con win) where most reasonable people thought we'd be after the Hauser's departed. 

Quote from: pettyworld on March 13, 2020, 12:54:53 PM
Let me know where any of that was said. Lol. Maybe learn how to read before responding from now on.

You said - "The season was cancelled. You won't be getting any results".

That implies that the first sentence begat the second. Or did you just sandwich two independent facts next to each other in some type of word vomit?

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 13, 2020, 12:58:29 PM
You said - "The season was cancelled. You won't be getting any results".

That implies that the first sentence begat the second. Or did you just sandwich two independent facts next to each other in some type of word vomit?

It implies that literally there will not be a single college basketball result for the rest of the 2019-2020 season.  Not for Marquette, not for Kansas, not for the DePaul program you want us to be, not for Cardinal Stritch, not for UWM, not for UWGB, nobody.  Results will not occur this season.

Quote from: pettyworld on March 13, 2020, 01:03:37 PM
It implies that literally there will not be a single college basketball result for the rest of the 2019-2020 season.  Not for Marquette, not for Kansas, not for the DePaul program you want us to be, not for Cardinal Stritch, not for UWM, not for UWGB, nobody.  Results will not occur this season.

So you're just stating a fact? Not using it as an excuse for Wojo's mediocre regular season and lack of results in the first 5 years of his career?

Ok, I'm on board. Thanks for clarifying.

I went with a C. Going into this season I was probably more of a B- to C+ and now am more of C to C-.

The interesting thing about Wojo is that the results have not been bad. 2 years of rebuild, NCAA, NIT, NCAA x2 is not a bad first 6 years. We can argue until we are blue in the face about whether or not they are "good" but they certainly aren't fireable results.

The problem with Wojo isn't the what, it's the how. Two consecutive late season collapses is a humongous red flag. I'd argue that if Wojo pulled an Ed Cooley and had a disastrous start to the season followed by a torrid run that took us from outside the NIT to 7-10 seed, we would have a lot less angst. Both paths result in the same finish but one certainly feels better than the other.

Where were everyone's expectations in 2014? Villanova was coming off a great season, but they were just as close to calls for Jay Wright to be fired as they were to a national title. Back when Creighton, Butler, and Xavier were nice additions, but still the new kids on the block. When Georgetown was the only other heavy-hitter name in the league and 7 years removed from the second round? When St. John's, Providence, and DePaul were also-rans?

My biggest issue is that when this league was founded, I expected us to be what Villanova has become. Maybe not two national titles in 7 years, but the class of the league. The regular front-runner. The Kansas, Gonzaga, or Kentucky at the top whom everyone else expects to chase.

Were anyone else's expectations that different? Having routinely been near the top of the old Big East, with a Final 4 not that far removed and second weekend runs feeling almost commonplace? At this point of Wojo's career, weren't we supposed to be back in the position we were always supposed to be in when this league was formed?

It's true that Buzz left the program a shambles. It's true that Wojo has generally improved results. It's true that for most programs, these results would be fine. It's true that he's had some defections and injuries that made things tough. But it's also true that we were picked to win this league from the start and looked like the cornerstone of the league when it was reformed in 2013. And we haven't been anywhere close to that, mostly under Wojo's watch.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 13, 2020, 08:42:22 PM
Where were everyone's expectations in 2014? Villanova was coming off a great season, but they were just as close to calls for Jay Wright to be fired as they were to a national title. Back when Creighton, Butler, and Xavier were nice additions, but still the new kids on the block. When Georgetown was the only other heavy-hitter name in the league and 7 years removed from the second round? When St. John's, Providence, and DePaul were also-rans?

My biggest issue is that when this league was founded, I expected us to be what Villanova has become. Maybe not two national titles in 7 years, but the class of the league. The regular front-runner. The Kansas, Gonzaga, or Kentucky at the top whom everyone else expects to chase.

Were anyone else's expectations that different? Having routinely been near the top of the old Big East, with a Final 4 not that far removed and second weekend runs feeling almost commonplace? At this point of Wojo's career, weren't we supposed to be back in the position we were always supposed to be in when this league was formed?

It's true that Buzz left the program a shambles. It's true that Wojo has generally improved results. It's true that for most programs, these results would be fine. It's true that he's had some defections and injuries that made things tough. But it's also true that we were picked to win this league from the start and looked like the cornerstone of the league when it was reformed in 2013. And we haven't been anywhere close to that, mostly under Wojo's watch.

We should be better than what we have been, but we have 3 conference championships in the history of the program (and one was a three way split). Yes, some of our history includes having been an independent. But that's still 3 championships in like 30 years. If you expected us to be what Nova has been maybe part of the problem was your expectations. We aren't that and we haven't been that since Al left.

Quote from: pettyworld on March 13, 2020, 08:49:57 PM
We should be better than what we have been, but we have 3 conference championships in the history of the program (and one was a three way split). Yes, some of our history includes having been an independent. But that's still 3 championships in like 30 years. If you expected us to be what Nova has been maybe part of the problem was your expectations. We aren't that and we haven't been that since Al left.

When I say what Nova has been, I mean the team clearly at the top of the conference. Can anyone honestly say that wasn't their expectation when this new league was formed?

No one expected Nova to morph into a blue blood, not even the craziest dreamers at the Finn, but I think it's safe to say we all expected the top dog in the Big East would reside in Milwaukee more often than not.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 13, 2020, 08:51:38 PM
When I say what Nova has been, I mean the team clearly at the top of the conference. Can anyone honestly say that wasn't their expectation when this new league was formed?

No one expected Nova to morph into a blue blood, not even the craziest dreamers at the Finn, but I think it's safe to say we all expected the top dog in the Big East would reside in Milwaukee more often than not.

I did not expect that. I thought Nova and Georgetown would be the two best programs in the conference and us, Xavier, and Butler (thought Stevens would eventually leave, but not as soon as he did) would make up the second tier.

Villanova went 24-30 in the past three years of the old Big East and there were Villanova fans that wanted him fired in 2012. I'd be curious to see anyone that expected Villanova to regularly be ahead of us in the pecking order when this league reformed. I honestly don't believe that person existed on this board.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 13, 2020, 09:02:48 PM
Villanova went 24-30 in the past three years of the old Big East and there were Villanova fans that wanted him fired in 2012. I'd be curious to see anyone that expected Villanova to regularly be ahead of us in the pecking order when this league reformed. I honestly don't believe that person existed on this board.

They had also gone to the Final Four in 2009, been a 2 seed in 2010, and a 1 seed in 2006. Anybody who wanted Jay Wright fired one 2012 is an idiot. They are and have been a much better program than Marquette this entire century.

Quote from: pettyworld on March 13, 2020, 09:07:24 PM
They had also gone to the Final Four in 2009, been a 2 seed in 2010, and a 1 seed in 2006. Anybody who wanted Jay Wright fired one 2012 is an idiot. They are and have been a much better program than Marquette this entire century.

1. Totally agree that anyone who wanted Jay Wright fired in 2012 (or any other year for that matter) is an idiot.

2. Not sure what you mean by the "entire century". Since the break up of the old Big East (Buzz's last year and 6 years of Wojo) they've been light years better than MU. And for TC's years they were better, too.

3. But in Buzz's first 5 years (the last 5 years of the old, great Big East) we were 60-30 in the conference. Villanova was 50-40 and Georgetown was 53-37. And we were thought to be the best team entering the NBE's inaugural year. Yes, Vander Blue and Jamal McKey left unexpectedly and we were caught short, but I don't see a reason why anyone would have thought we went into the New Big East with an inferior program to Villanova or Georgetown.

And we were a 3-seed in 2012 & 2013 while sharing the 2013 Big East title, which I'd argue was more relevant than their 2006. Like I said, I don't believe any Marquette fan thought we were a second tier team in this league when it was formed.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 13, 2020, 09:41:47 PM
And we were a 3-seed in 2012 & 2013 while sharing the 2013 Big East title, which I'd argue was more relevant than their 2006. Like I said, I don't believe any Marquette fan thought we were a second tier team in this league when it was formed.

Except wades, evidently.

Marquette had a 3 year stretch where they were better than Nova. That's less than a recruiting cycle. If you thought that meant we were the best program heading into the NBE I don't know what to tell you. There is no question Nova and Georgetown were better overall programs than MU heading into the NBE.

Just because Creighton's been better than us for the past 3 seasons doesn't mean they'd be expected to be a more successful program from here on out.

Quote from: Boozemon Barro on March 13, 2020, 08:36:37 AM
We should extend Wojo 5 or 6 years. I really want to see what he can do with his own recruits and give him plenty of time to install his culture. Putting pressure on him to win now is really unfair and mean.

Cruel, even.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 13, 2020, 09:41:47 PM
And we were a 3-seed in 2012 & 2013 while sharing the 2013 Big East title, which I'd argue was more relevant than their 2006. Like I said, I don't believe any Marquette fan thought we were a second tier team in this league when it was formed.

Totally agree.  Heading into the New Big East I honestly thought Marquette would have won the conference once, and probably twice.  Heck, win one game down the stretch last year and there is your title.

Wojo's performance in the New Big East has been a disappointment . . . BUT KENPOM!!!

Quote from: pettyworld on March 13, 2020, 10:12:18 PM
If you thought that meant we were the best program heading into the NBE I don't know what to tell you.

Please show where and when I said "Best". I said we had been more successful than both Nova and GTown during the Buzz era (which had lasted 5 years). It's true. And that we weren't thought of as an inferior program to either when the new Big East began. Which is also true, in spite of what you opine.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 14, 2020, 08:23:21 PM
Please show where and when I said "Best". I said we had been more successful than both Nova and GTown during the Buzz era (which had lasted 5 years). It's true. And that we weren't thought of as an inferior program to either when the new Big East began. Which is also true, in spite of what you opine.

In the Buzz era, from 2009 to 2014:

Nova - 3 seed, 2 seed, 9 seed, missed Tourney, 9 seed, 3 seed, 2 seed
Georgetown - missed Tourney, 3 seed, 6 seed, 3 seed, 2 seed, missed Tourney
Marquette - 6 seed, 6 seed, 11 seed, 3 seed, 3 seed, missed Tourney

And the returning rosters left behind for the following season for these teams were 1 seed for Nova, 4 seed for Georgetown, and missed the Tourney for MU.

Sorry. I'll stand by my claim that if people expected Marquette to be to the Big East what Gonzaga is to the MWC or what Nova is to the BE, their expectations are at least part of the problem of why MU hasn't lived up to expectations. Marquette hasn't been anywhere close to the program that Nova or Georgetown has been since the 1970s. Just haven't been.

Quote from: pettyworld on March 14, 2020, 09:34:25 PM
In the Buzz era, from 2009 to 2014:

Nova - 3 seed, 2 seed, 9 seed, missed Tourney, 9 seed, 3 seed, 2 seed
Georgetown - missed Tourney, 3 seed, 6 seed, 3 seed, 2 seed, missed Tourney
Marquette - 6 seed, 6 seed, 11 seed, 3 seed, 3 seed, missed Tourney.

2014? Goal post shift. We were talking about expectations BEFORE we entered the NBE.

In the Buzz era, 2009-2013, the time under consideration: Marquette 60-30 in conference. Villanova 50-40. Georgetown in between, record posted previously.

Only a few wildly optimistic fans expected us to be Gonzaga. Only a few pessimists thought we wouldn't share the top tier with Nova and Georgetown.

Bottom line, Villanova has wildly exceeded expectations, we've been a disappointment and Georgetown has been a disaster.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 14, 2020, 10:00:25 PM
2014? Goal post shift. We were talking about expectations BEFORE we entered the NBE.

In the Buzz era, 2009-2013, the time under consideration: Marquette 60-30 in conference. Villanova 50-40. Georgetown in between, record posted previously.

Only a few wildly optimistic fans expected us to be Gonzaga. Only a few pessimists thought we wouldn't share the top tier with Nova and Georgetown.

Bottom line, Villanova has wildly exceeded expectations, we've been a disappointment and Georgetown has been a disaster.

Lol! You bring up the Buzz Williams era. Now when I bring the facts of the Buzz Williams era I'm shifting goalposts? Was Buzz Williams not our coach for the 2013-2014 season?

Good talk Lenny. Lol.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 13, 2020, 08:51:38 PM
When I say what Nova has been, I mean the team clearly at the top of the conference. Can anyone honestly say that wasn't their expectation when this new league was formed?

No one expected Nova to morph into a blue blood, not even the craziest dreamers at the Finn, but I think it's safe to say we all expected the top dog in the Big East would reside in Milwaukee more often than not.

I didn't expect MU to be the "Nova" of the conference because I expected us to fight it out for a conference title against Georgetown, Nova, and Xavier. Some years we would win other years we would be the last in that line. I also expected a few years that one of the others would come into the mix.  When we formed I wasn't expecting a one team league.

Unfortunately, that happened and nova won the regular season title all but one year when the finished second. After the first year of the league and Buzz leaving my expectations changed to MU needs to fight back to relevancy in the new league before they could be a consistent player in the league.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 13, 2020, 08:51:38 PM
When I say what Nova has been, I mean the team clearly at the top of the conference. Can anyone honestly say that wasn't their expectation when this new league was formed?

No one expected Nova to morph into a blue blood, not even the craziest dreamers at the Finn, but I think it's safe to say we all expected the top dog in the Big East would reside in Milwaukee more often than not.

+1

I was expecting MU, GTown, and Nova to be the flagbearers of the conference based on history and current success at the time. 

I expected these three teams plus one of {X, Creighton, Butler} to always be at the top, with a bad year thrown in once in a while for each of MU, GTown, and Nova.

MU and GTown have fallen off a cliff since then, while Nova has ascended Mt. Everest twice.

I did not bother to read this thread. I voted B. I rated him higher than his actual results, because he has not hurt the image of the University.

Wojos's teams look like perennial 5th place challengers each year in the BE and anything more than that is an over-accomplishment.

Quote from: BallBoy on March 15, 2020, 08:58:40 AM
I didn't expect MU to be the "Nova" of the conference because I expected us to fight it out for a conference title against Georgetown, Nova, and Xavier. Some years we would win other years we would be the last in that line. I also expected a few years that one of the others would come into the mix.  When we formed I wasn't expecting a one team league.

Unfortunately, that happened and nova won the regular season title all but one year when the finished second. After the first year of the league and Buzz leaving my expectations changed to MU needs to fight back to relevancy in the new league before they could be a consistent player in the league.

Quote from: bilsu on March 15, 2020, 09:39:11 AM
I did not bother to read this thread. I voted B. I rated him higher than his actual results, because he has not hurt the image of the University.

I get where you are coming from but shouldn't that be minimum requirement of the job and not something you get extra-credit for?

Quote from: bilsu on March 15, 2020, 09:39:11 AM
I did not bother to read this thread. I voted B. I rated him higher than his actual results, because he has not hurt the image of the University.

As long as MU can keep making seat covers for the student section, we should be fine with the image.  Maybe if MU wants to give a boost to the computer science department they can start CGIing fans into the ever increasing empty seats.  Also, what happened to the band?  Where's ring out ahoya?  Totally dismal MU experience at the Fiserv.  Program is headed downhill.  There's no reason to attend games next year unless you want to see that close game between ST. Johns. 

Quote from: bilsu on March 15, 2020, 09:39:11 AM
I did not bother to read this thread. I voted B. I rated him higher than his actual results, because he has not hurt the image of the University.

To rate the the coach of a basketball team, who's job is to win basketball games, a B based on "not hurting the image of the University" may be the most asinine thing I have ever read. I don't mean to attack you personally, as I have seen other people on this forum laud Wojo for being "squeaky clean", but it's just such an outrageous statement that I'm so sick of reading.

News flash - there are hundreds of coaches who don't hurt their respective university's images by simply existing, almost all of whom we could hire. But if they aren't good coaches, and cant win games, WHY WOULD YOU WANT THEM?

What I'm saying is grading Wojo as above average based on something just about every human being could do if given the opportunity, is just ridiculous. THis notion that our coach being squeaky clean is just as, if not more important, than winning is a microcosm of why our program is currently in the dumpster.

No I don't want a scumbag like Buzz, but there is a massive middle ground to be had between a bad guy who is a good coach and a good guy who is a bad coach.

Quote from: warriorfred on March 14, 2020, 06:50:50 AM
Totally agree.  Heading into the New Big East I honestly thought Marquette would have won the conference once, and probably twice.  Heck, win one game down the stretch last year and there is your title.

Wojo's performance in the New Big East has been a disappointment . . . BUT KENPOM!!!

We have won three conference titles in our history in conferences of 32 years, no coach has won more than one.  Why are we suddenly going to win two in six years?  MU fans thought we would dominate the MCC and Great Midwest. We did not. Same for Conference USA.  We did not.

Quote from: WarriorDad on March 15, 2020, 01:34:32 PM
We have won three conference titles in our history in conferences of 32 years, no coach has won more than one.  Why are we suddenly going to win two in six years?  MU fans thought we would dominate the MCC and Great Midwest. We did not. Same for Conference USA.  We did not.

Well said.

There is an important but delicate balance between having high expectations / expecting greatness and being realistic.

There is no reason we couldn't have a run like Villanova. There is no reason we can't have that type of success. We have the resources and history to support it.

That said, that type of success isn't easy to attain. It doesn't just happen because a fan base thinks it could. It requires a lot of moving parts to line up properly at the right time.

For me, Wojo is a C. Average. That's it. The program is not in despair. We still have the ability to be a resurgent success story and Wojo's recruiting makes me feel even better about that chance. But, we aren't good. The last two years have been difficult. It needs to get better. With Wojo or without.

One last point on recruiting. Great coaches make average players look good. Great players make average coaches look great. If Wojo is staying, let's hope this incoming class is great and not just hype.

Quote from: pettyworld on March 13, 2020, 10:12:18 PM
Marquette had a 3 year stretch where they were better than Nova. That's less than a recruiting cycle. If you thought that meant we were the best program heading into the NBE I don't know what to tell you. There is no question Nova and Georgetown were better overall programs than MU heading into the NBE.

Just because Creighton's been better than us for the past 3 seasons doesn't mean they'd be expected to be a more successful program from here on out.

We finished ahead of Creighton last season.

Quote from: WarriorDad on March 15, 2020, 02:08:01 PM
We finished ahead of Creighton last season.

We finished well behind them this season and will do so again next season.

Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on March 15, 2020, 12:48:59 PM
As long as MU can keep making seat covers for the student section, we should be fine with the image.  Maybe if MU wants to give a boost to the computer science department they can start CGIing fans into the ever increasing empty seats.  Also, what happened to the band?  Where's ring out ahoya?  Totally dismal MU experience at the Fiserv.  Program is headed downhill.  There's no reason to attend games next year unless you want to see that close game between ST. Johns.

We certainly hope the general stench of the program convinces you to stop posting here!

D

Positive
He runs a clean program

Negatives
Lots of player turnover
Putrid defensive principles
0 NCAA tournament wins
Zero success in getting players not named Henry Ellenson into the NBA


It shocks me he's still somehow able to get top tier recruits to come to campus. I would imagine, when the team inevitably struggles next year, our recruiting will take a dive. The school is holding onto him for way too long.

Quote from: WarriorDad on March 15, 2020, 01:34:32 PM
We have won three conference titles in our history in conferences of 32 years, no coach has won more than one.  Why are we suddenly going to win two in six years?

Because we won the old Big East and the perennial favorites Syracuse, UConn, Pitt, & Louisville were gone. The last two years of the league, we were the highest ranked NBE team in the league. In our first 8 years in the Big East, we had been the first or second ranked NBE team in the standings 7 times.

If someone wants to argue it would be a three team race with Nova and Georgetown, I can see that, but any Marquette fan saying they didn't expect us to be one of the 2-3 best teams routinely is lying.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 15, 2020, 09:26:10 PM
Because we won the old Big East and the perennial favorites Syracuse, UConn, Pitt, & Louisville were gone. The last two years of the league, we were the highest ranked NBE team in the league. In our first 8 years in the Big East, we had been the first or second ranked NBE team in the standings 7 times.

If someone wants to argue it would be a three team race with Nova and Georgetown, I can see that, but any Marquette fan saying they didn't expect us to be one of the 2-3 best teams routinely is lying.

Bingo!

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 15, 2020, 09:26:10 PM
Because we won the old Big East and the perennial favorites Syracuse, UConn, Pitt, & Louisville were gone. The last two years of the league, we were the highest ranked NBE team in the league. In our first 8 years in the Big East, we had been the first or second ranked NBE team in the standings 7 times.

If someone wants to argue it would be a three team race with Nova and Georgetown, I can see that, but any Marquette fan saying they didn't expect us to be one of the 2-3 best teams routinely is lying.

Yeah, that's not what your claim was.  You said you expected us to be what Nova actually is or what Gonzaga is to the MWC.  That is far different than being "one of the two or three best teams routinely."

It would've been great to be what you "expected" Marquette to be.  It also would've been a completely unreasonable expectation.  We've been in a total of 4 conferences in the history of the program (5 if you count the NBE and the old BE as separate conferences).  We've been the best program in exactly 0 of those conferences when we were in them.  We have a total of 3 conference titles in 31 seasons of being in a conference.  Why someone would expect us to win 6 in 7 years like Nova or 19 in 20 years like Gonzaga is baffling.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 15, 2020, 09:26:10 PM
Because we won the old Big East and the perennial favorites Syracuse, UConn, Pitt, & Louisville were gone. The last two years of the league, we were the highest ranked NBE team in the league. In our first 8 years in the Big East, we had been the first or second ranked NBE team in the standings 7 times.

If someone wants to argue it would be a three team race with Nova and Georgetown, I can see that, but any Marquette fan saying they didn't expect us to be one of the 2-3 best teams routinely is lying.

The last two years of the Big East Georgetown was the highest ranked team on KenPom.com. 

12 years after winning the national championship we entered the MCC where we were expected to dominate. We never did.  We win a conference title on average every 10 or 11 years.   Coach Williams first year in the NBE was a disappointment after picked to win it, but finishing in the bottom half.  It has been a mix of upper and lower half finishes since. 

Quote from: pettyworld on March 15, 2020, 09:50:27 PM
Yeah, that's not what your claim was.  You said you expected us to be what Nova actually is or what Gonzaga is to the MWC.  That is far different than being "one of the two or three best teams routinely."

It would've been great to be what you "expected" Marquette to be.  It also would've been a completely unreasonable expectation.  We've been in a total of 4 conferences in the history of the program (5 if you count the NBE and the old BE as separate conferences).  We've been the best program in exactly 0 of those conferences when we were in them.  We have a total of 3 conference titles in 31 seasons of being in a conference.  Why someone would expect us to win 6 in 7 years like Nova or 19 in 20 years like Gonzaga is baffling.

You said it better than I did, but that was my thought as well.  This is a great conference and several of those other conferences we were in were lower quality and we still didn't win the title.  The fan base has a slightly exaggerated view vs our actual accomplishments historically.

Quote from: pettyworld on March 15, 2020, 09:50:27 PM
Yeah, that's not what your claim was.  You said you expected us to be what Nova actually is or what Gonzaga is to the MWC.  That is far different than being "one of the two or three best teams routinely."

It would've been great to be what you "expected" Marquette to be.  It also would've been a completely unreasonable expectation.  We've been in a total of 4 conferences in the history of the program (5 if you count the NBE and the old BE as separate conferences).  We've been the best program in exactly 0 of those conferences when we were in them.  We have a total of 3 conference titles in 31 seasons of being in a conference.  Why someone would expect us to win 6 in 7 years like Nova or 19 in 20 years like Gonzaga is baffling.

Amazing how you misquote me when you are quoting me. I expected us to be on top of the league more often than not. I expected us to be the marquee program, which of the remaining Big East programs we had been for the past 3 years and better part of our history in the league.

The part you try to disingenuously point out is "IF SOMEONE wants to argue it would be a three team race with Nova and Georgetown, I COULD SEE THAT." There is clearly from context a difference between that and the expectations I had.

I feel there's a lot of narrative shifting between where fans thought we would be and where we are. Just because we're here now doesn't mean anyone thought we would be a second tier team. As I've said before, I don't believe anyone making that claim.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 15, 2020, 11:14:24 PM
Amazing how you misquote me when you are quoting me. I expected us to be on top of the league more often than not. I expected us to be the marquee program, which of the remaining Big East programs we had been for the past 3 years and better part of our history in the league.

The part you try to disingenuously point out is "IF SOMEONE wants to argue it would be a three team race with Nova and Georgetown, I COULD SEE THAT." There is clearly from context a difference between that and the expectations I had.

I feel there's a lot of narrative shifting between where fans thought we would be and where we are. Just because we're here now doesn't mean anyone thought we would be a second tier team. As I've said before, I don't believe anyone making that claim.

Sorry if I misquoted you.  I won't even summarize what you said, I'll just put your entire quote below.  The only thing I see is you saying you expected us to be where Nova is, maybe minus two national titles.  As far as I'm reading, you added Kansas and Kentucky to the list of schools you thought we'd be in the NBE.  And frankly, we've never been that, ever.  And chances are we never will.  So to have that as your expectation, it's no wonder you feel let down.

Now, if you want to back down and say people should've expected us to be one of the two or three best programs, sure.  Nova and Georgetown were certainly in that discussion, even if we had a nice three year run (which is great, but it doesn't just surpass everything else that goes into a program).  Xavier was coming off of 4 Sweet 16s in a 5 year period and had made like 19 of 21 NCAA Tournaments.  Butler had made two national titles in the previous half decade heading into the league and at the time had what looked to be the best young coach in America.

If we're backing off from being the Kansas of the Big 12, Kentucky of the SEC, Nova of the BE, and Gonzaga of the WCC, then we can have the discussion.  That's not what your post said that began the discussion, though.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 13, 2020, 08:42:22 PM
Where were everyone's expectations in 2014? Villanova was coming off a great season, but they were just as close to calls for Jay Wright to be fired as they were to a national title. Back when Creighton, Butler, and Xavier were nice additions, but still the new kids on the block. When Georgetown was the only other heavy-hitter name in the league and 7 years removed from the second round? When St. John's, Providence, and DePaul were also-rans?

My biggest issue is that when this league was founded, I expected us to be what Villanova has become. Maybe not two national titles in 7 years, but the class of the league. The regular front-runner. The Kansas, Gonzaga, or Kentucky at the top whom everyone else expects to chase.

Were anyone else's expectations that different? Having routinely been near the top of the old Big East, with a Final 4 not that far removed and second weekend runs feeling almost commonplace? At this point of Wojo's career, weren't we supposed to be back in the position we were always supposed to be in when this league was formed?

It's true that Buzz left the program a shambles. It's true that Wojo has generally improved results. It's true that for most programs, these results would be fine. It's true that he's had some defections and injuries that made things tough. But it's also true that we were picked to win this league from the start and looked like the cornerstone of the league when it was reformed in 2013. And we haven't been anywhere close to that, mostly under Wojo's watch.

Quote from: pettyworld on March 16, 2020, 08:21:33 AM
Sorry if I misquoted you.  I won't even summarize what you said, I'll just put your entire quote below.  The only thing I see is you saying you expected us to be where Nova is, maybe minus two national titles.  As far as I'm reading, you added Kansas and Kentucky to the list of schools you thought we'd be in the NBE.  And frankly, we've never been that, ever.  And chances are we never will.  So to have that as your expectation, it's no wonder you feel let down.

Now, if you want to back down and say people should've expected us to be one of the two or three best programs, sure.  Nova and Georgetown were certainly in that discussion, even if we had a nice three year run (which is great, but it doesn't just surpass everything else that goes into a program).  Xavier was coming off of 4 Sweet 16s in a 5 year period and had made like 19 of 21 NCAA Tournaments.  Butler had made two national titles in the previous half decade heading into the league and at the time had what looked to be the best young coach in America.

If we're backing off from being the Kansas of the Big 12, Kentucky of the SEC, Nova of the BE, and Gonzaga of the WCC, then we can have the discussion.  That's not what your post said that began the discussion, though.

By Kentucky, Kansas, and Gonzaga, I was referring to our position in our league. That was clearly spelled out. Yes, I expected us to be the marquee program of this Big East. The later post is adding that I can understand someone thinking we would be one of the marquee programs along with Nova and Georgetown.

No one, no one thought we would be a second tier program in this league. No one thought we would be a middle to bottom team in this league. No one at Marquette and frankly no one outside Marquette.

We were the team to beat in year one and the program to beat when the league was formed. Clearly, we've been beaten in both regards. My issue is that while it seemed we were moving back in that direction the past two years, we now seem to be much further away from that than we were 13 months ago.

It's pretty clear what brew is saying. But Wades loves to argue.

Quote from: #UnleashJayce on March 16, 2020, 08:40:02 AM
It's pretty clear what brew is saying. But Wades loves to argue.

Yeah, it is clear.  And we've never been what brew thought we'd be.

Thank you for contributing.

Quote from: pettyworld on March 16, 2020, 08:53:37 AM
Yeah, it is clear.  And we've never been what brew thought we'd be.

Thank you for contributing.

Feel free to own this: We've never been under Wojo what you thought we'd be.

Brew's perception and expectation was totally fair based on what our program achieved the prior 14 years before Wojo took over.  You actually pretty much assured us the same back in January 2015.

(Recall posting how beautiful it was gonna be once Wojo had all his guys and we'd be trending like Duke under K?)

Funny how your tune has changed due to your man crush underperforming.

Quote from: Elonsmusk on March 16, 2020, 12:40:46 PM
Feel free to own this: We've never been under Wojo what you thought we'd be.

Brew's perception and expectation was totally fair based on what our program achieved the prior 14 years before Wojo took over.  You actually pretty much assured us the same back in January 2015.

(Recall posting how beautiful it was gonna be once Wojo had all his guys and we'd be trending like Duke under K?)

Funny how your tune has changed due to your man crush underperforming.

Wojo has absolutely underperformed. The extent to which he has underperformed is greatly exaggerated.

C-/D+.  Would've given him a firm C- but this year's collapse has shown that last year's collapse wasn't all on the Hausers.  He's certainly not a bad coach, but this is a big boy league, and he's a lower tier coach in it.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 16, 2020, 08:31:59 AM
By Kentucky, Kansas, and Gonzaga, I was referring to our position in our league. That was clearly spelled out. Yes, I expected us to be the marquee program of this Big East. The later post is adding that I can understand someone thinking we would be one of the marquee programs along with Nova and Georgetown.

No one, no one thought we would be a second tier program in this league. No one thought we would be a middle to bottom team in this league. No one at Marquette and frankly no one outside Marquette.

We were the team to beat in year one and the program to beat when the league was formed. Clearly, we've been beaten in both regards. My issue is that while it seemed we were moving back in that direction the past two years, we now seem to be much further away from that than we were 13 months ago.

No one thought we would be second tier the first year in it. Coach Williams picked to win it.  That started us off on bad footing and then the rebuilding from there.  How one starts can set the tone.

Why are you discounting Xavier, Butler, and others when the new league was formed?  Xavier has every right to be an upper tier team claim going in. 

Wojo is 51-57 in the Big East across 6 seasons without a tourney win. Could be wrong, but I would assume that puts Mu only ahead of cellar dwellers DePaul, St Johns & Gtown over those seasons?

It's hard to go much higher than C

Quote from: WarriorPride68 on March 17, 2020, 10:23:30 AM
Wojo is 51-57 in the Big East across 6 seasons without a tourney win. Could be wrong, but I would assume that puts Mu only ahead of cellar dwellers DePaul, St Johns & Gtown over those seasons?

It's hard to go much higher than C

If we're hanging on the 51-57 record it should be noted that he's behind others but not terribly. Willard is under .500 as a coach with only two seasons of more than 10 wins. Cooley is a smidge above .500 but has never won more than 12 games in one season.

Jordan is under .500 at Butler. McDermott is at .550 but only twice has won more than 10 games. Ewing has never had a winning record. Steele and Anderson are just at their start. In this regard, Wojo isn't much different.


Regarding March there isn't much success in the conference. Willard, Cooley, and Jordan have one win each. McDermott has three wins in 25 years of coaching. Anderson has had success but it's been 10-15 years and two programs since that success. Ewing has nothing. Steele has never been there. In that regard, Wojo isn't much different.


I left out Nova/GQ and DePaul/Leitao because it's obvious what they've done.

Quote from: WarriorPride68 on March 17, 2020, 10:23:30 AM
Wojo is 51-57 in the Big East across 6 seasons without a tourney win. Could be wrong, but I would assume that puts Mu only ahead of cellar dwellers DePaul, St Johns & Gtown over those seasons?

It's hard to go much higher than C

You are correct. It was a tough choice between giving Wojo a C or D grade but I voted D. In my mind he's been in the C-/D+ range.

Team	Record
Villanova	87-21
Xavier	64-44
Butler	60-48
Providence	60-48
Seton Hall	60-48
Creighton	55-53
Marquette	51-57
Georgetown	43-65
St. John's	35-73
DePaul	25-83

Quote from: BM1090 on March 16, 2020, 04:15:13 PM
Wojo has absolutely underperformed. The extent to which he has underperformed is greatly exaggerated.

Eliminate the "greatly" and I'm on board with this.

Quote from: Golden Avalanche on March 17, 2020, 11:10:24 AM
If we're hanging on the 51-57 record it should be noted that he's behind others but not terribly. Willard is under .500 as a coach with only two seasons of more than 10 wins. Cooley is a smidge above .500 but has never won more than 12 games in one season.

Jordan is under .500 at Butler. McDermott is at .550 but only twice has won more than 10 games. Ewing has never had a winning record. Steele and Anderson are just at their start. In this regard, Wojo isn't much different.


Regarding March there isn't much success in the conference. Willard, Cooley, and Jordan have one win each. McDermott has three wins in 25 years of coaching. Anderson has had success but it's been 10-15 years and two programs since that success. Ewing has nothing. Steele has never been there. In that regard, Wojo isn't much different.


I left out Nova/GQ and DePaul/Leitao because it's obvious what they've done.

Wow.  This is mind-numbing rationalization and logic.

Didn't realize we were on the same trajectory as Providence and Seton Hall when Wojo took over?

Comparing 6 year Wojo to Anderson, Ewing and Steele?  One in his 1st year, the other his 3rd, and the other 2nd. 

Want to weigh in on next year?  Want to weigh in on the awful finishes to each of the last two seasons? 

Quote from: Golden Avalanche on March 17, 2020, 11:10:24 AM
If we're hanging on the 51-57 record it should be noted that he's behind others but not terribly. Willard is under .500 as a coach with only two seasons of more than 10 wins. Cooley is a smidge above .500 but has never won more than 12 games in one season.

Jordan is under .500 at Butler. McDermott is at .550 but only twice has won more than 10 games. Ewing has never had a winning record. Steele and Anderson are just at their start. In this regard, Wojo isn't much different.


Regarding March there isn't much success in the conference. Willard, Cooley, and Jordan have one win each. McDermott has three wins in 25 years of coaching. Anderson has had success but it's been 10-15 years and two programs since that success. Ewing has nothing. Steele has never been there. In that regard, Wojo isn't much different.


I left out Nova/GQ and DePaul/Leitao because it's obvious what they've done.

I don't disagree, but I think this underscores the problem. Wojo is an average coach. A bit above average as a recruiter, a bit below average as a game coach. Thus far, the average coach has given us average results. Some okay, some a little disappointing, but nothing that makes you excited or completely exasperated.

The question is then what we expect as a program. Is an average program with average results okay? Then Wojo's the guy. But if we want more than average, I don't think he's it.

This is our record in 15 years since joining the Big East. 9 years before Wojo (3 Crean, 6 Buzz) and 6 since he became coach. I don't think giving him a D grade for his tenure so far is being harsh. The numbers speak for themselves.

Years	Overall	Big East
2005-14	208-100 (.675)	100-58 (.633)
2014-20	115-81 (.587)	51-57 (.472)
Total:	323-181 (.641)	151-115 (.568)

Quote from: MUBB Buff on March 17, 2020, 01:58:31 PM
This is our record in 15 years since joining the Big East. 9 years before Wojo (3 Crean, 6 Buzz) and 6 since he became coach. I don't think giving him a D grade for his tenure so far is being harsh. The numbers speak for themselves.

Years	Overall	Big East
2005-14	208-100 (.675)	100-58 (.633)
2014-20	115-81 (.587)	51-57 (.472)
Total:	323-181 (.641)	151-115 (.568)

But but but but we'll never be Kansas or Gonzaga!

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 17, 2020, 02:25:06 PM
But but but but we'll never be Kansas or Gonzaga!

You might want to educate yourself if you think the 2005-2014 numbers are anywhere close to what Gonzaga and Kansas have been doing...

Quote from: pettyworld on March 17, 2020, 02:30:39 PM
You might want to educate yourself if you think the 2005-2014 numbers are anywhere close to what Gonzaga and Kansas have been doing...

That's exactly what I'm jabbing at you for, smart guy.  There's a difference between being Kansas/Gonzaga and NOT being utterly mediocre (51-57 in Big East play).

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 17, 2020, 02:48:06 PM
That's exactly what I'm jabbing at you for, smart guy.  There's a difference between being Kansas/Gonzaga and NOT being utterly mediocre (51-57 in Big East play).

Read what was quoted, smart guy.  Kansas, Gonzaga, Kentucky, Nova.  I'm not the one who came up with the list, I'm the one who responded to the list.  If somebody expected that kind of success from Marquette then part of the reason they are feeling let down is because their expectations were way too high.  Marquette has been in a conference for 31 years now and never once have they approached close to the level of success in their conference as Kansas, Gonzaga, Kentucky, or Nova have recently.  Even when things were great under Crean/Buzz, they weren't close to that level.  Which is exactly the point I've been making.

Quote from: pettyworld on March 17, 2020, 02:55:49 PM
Read what was quoted, smart guy.  Kansas, Gonzaga, Kentucky, Nova.  I'm not the one who came up with the list, I'm the one who responded to the list.  If somebody expected that kind of success from Marquette then part of the reason they are feeling let down is because their expectations were way too high.  Marquette has been in a conference for 31 years now and never once have they approached close to the level of success in their conference as Kansas, Gonzaga, Kentucky, or Nova have recently.  Even when things were great under Crean/Buzz, they weren't close to that level.  Which is exactly the point I've been making.

Ok...?

The letdown feeling still exists because we have not been Tier 1 (or even remotely close honestly) and debatably not Tier 2 (depending on how you slice it up) of the new Big East.  You're fighting a strawman to make it seem like Wojo has done just fine, but he could have never meet the entitled fanbase's expectations.  This is a classic Projo position I've seen taken by not just you, Petty.

There is an ocean, canyon, stratosphere, and universe of success between Wojo's current results and the strawman you're fighting.  At this moment in time, we have only been decisively better than DePaul, St. John, and Georgetown - the perennial whipping boys of the new Big East (not to mention multiple horrific losses to the aforementioned teams in critical moments during seasons).

The overall point (because I know you have trouble focusing on these) is that Marquette basketball has objectively underperformed against far lower expectations than being the Kansas/Gonzaga of the new Big East.  Therefore you fighting that strawman is not incredibly relevant.

Quote from: MUBB Buff on March 17, 2020, 01:58:31 PM
This is our record in 15 years since joining the Big East. 9 years before Wojo (3 Crean, 6 Buzz) and 6 since he became coach. I don't think giving him a D grade for his tenure so far is being harsh. The numbers speak for themselves.

Years	Overall	Big East
2005-14	208-100 (.675)	100-58 (.633)
2014-20	115-81 (.587)	51-57 (.472)
Total:	323-181 (.641)	151-115 (.568)

Agreed. Wojo has been abysmal.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 17, 2020, 03:14:31 PM
Ok...?

The letdown feeling still exists because we have not been Tier 1 (or even remotely close honestly) and debatably not Tier 2 (depending on how you slice it up) of the new Big East.  You're fighting a strawman to make it seem like Wojo has done just fine, but he could have never meet the entitled fanbase's expectations.  This is a classic Projo position I've seen taken by not just you, Petty.

There is an ocean, canyon, stratosphere, and universe of success between Wojo's current results and the strawman you're fighting.  At this moment in time, we have only been decisively better than DePaul, St. John, and Georgetown - the perennial whipping boys of the new Big East (not to mention multiple horrific losses to the aforementioned teams in critical moments during seasons).

The overall point (because I know you have trouble focusing on these) is that Marquette basketball has objectively underperformed against far lower expectations than being the Kansas/Gonzaga of the new Big East.  Therefore you fighting that strawman is not incredibly relevant.

Simple. Make that argument to begin with and don't claim we should be something we never have been. Or continue to get mad because I disagree with what someone is claiming and claim I'm just trying to make Wojo look better than he is. I'm guessing you'll continue with the latter.

Quote from: pettyworld on March 17, 2020, 03:34:16 PM
Simple. Make that argument to begin with and don't claim we should be something we never have been. Or continue to get mad because I disagree with what someone is claiming and claim I'm just trying to make Wojo look better than he is. I'm guessing you'll continue with the latter.

Throughout your thread he said several times you were misinterpreting/misquoting him.  Yet you continued to drag it out.  Most people understood the sentiment of what he meant.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 17, 2020, 03:43:29 PM
Throughout your thread he said several times you were misinterpreting/misquoting him.  Yet you continued to drag it out.  Most people understood the sentiment of what he meant.

Yeah and the sentiment continues to be wrong.  Even if his words were misinterpreted or misquoted and he didn't expect 14 straight conference titles or 19 of 20 conference titles, the sentiment was we would be the flagship program in the Big East.  History tells us that it's absurd to expect that out of Marquette, given we've been in 5 (including the old BE and the new BE as separate conferences) different conferences and been affiliated with a conference for 30+ years and we have never once been the flagship program of any of those conferences.  And a number of those conferences were worse than the current BE.  So yes, it's easy to understand why someone would be let down if the expectation was we would be the best program in the conference.

Expecting better than what we've been?  Reasonable.  The flagship program in a conference that includes some very, very strong programs both recently and historically?  Pretty easy to be let down if those are the expectations.

If someone said at the end of the 2013-2014 season that MU in 6 years, MU would be the 7th place team in aggregate Big East record - most Scoopers would have said no f'in way.

But here we are.  Trailing Creighton, Providence, Seton Hall, Butler, and Xavier.  Rather surprisingly the new adds to the conference have all done better than we have.

Is wojo Otter, Bluto or D-Day?

Quote from: Pakuni on March 13, 2020, 11:49:29 AM
Do you ever get tired of making the same arguments over and over?

Like how no one was quoted in the post.  Can ask the question of most people here.

Wojo isn't going anywhere and no one is going to change their opinion regardless of argument presented.

Can we all move on now?

Quote from: pettyworld on March 17, 2020, 05:34:00 PMHistory tells us that it's absurd to expect that out of Marquette, given we've been in 5 (including the old BE and the new BE as separate conferences) different conferences and been affiliated with a conference for 30+ years and we have never once been the flagship program of any of those conferences.

You expected a top-15 team after Vander left. Hard to believe you would think a program would go from S16/S16/E8 & conference champs, return to the top-15, and then be a middle of the pack team in a lesser league.

You can move goalposts all you like, but the only absurd thing is any Marquette fan saying they expected us to be a second tier team in this league. If lying to yourself now makes you feel better about the state of the program, fine, but no one in blue and gold expected nor would've accepted this considering where we were when the C7 split.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 17, 2020, 06:37:12 PM
You expected a top-15 team after Vander left. Hard to believe you would think a program would go from S16/S16/E8 & conference champs, return to the top-15, and then be a middle of the pack team in a lesser league.

You can move goalposts all you like, but the only absurd thing is any Marquette fan saying they expected us to be a second tier team in this league. If lying to yourself now makes you feel better about the state of the program, fine, but no one in blue and gold expected nor would've accepted this considering where we were when the C7 split.

Who is moving goalposts? You claimed you expected us to be what Nova is (5 conference titles in 6 years) minus "maybe" 2 national titles, Gonzaga (something like 19 conference titles on 21 years), Kentucky (don't have the time to look it up but I'd venture to guess more than 3 conference titles in program history), and Kansas (15 of 16 conference titles). Then when I said that'd be absolutely absurd to expect you backed down and changed it to the best program, but could understand how others might think "second or third best."

We aren't what you expected. We never have been. And chances are we never will be.

We have not won enough under Wojo.

The finishes to the last two seasons were beyond annoying, and those certainly reflect on the coach. One can look at the first as something that just happened -- some guys had injuries, some hit walls, etc. But a second straight collapse? Ugh.

Throw in last year's inability to manage egos -- which is one of every coach's main jobs -- and I feel almost overly generous giving him a C.

All of that said, I am certain he will not be fired this offseason, and I have doubts that even a .500 season would get him fired a year from now, especially if he has another good recruiting class. That's why I refuse to get myself too worked up about it. It's out of my control, and there are plenty of Scoopers who absolutely hate Wojo and would like to see him crushed under a Zamboni. I'll let them keep screaming from the rooftops.

We were in the Old Big East for 9 seasons. Here are the cumulative conference records in those 9 years of the teams that moved to the New Big East:

Marquette   91-49
Georgetown 91-49
Villanova.    82-58
Seton Hall.  54-86
Providence  49-91
St Johns.    48-92
DePaul.       27-113

In the 3 years preceding the NBE's inception:

Marquette     37-17
Georgetown. 36-18
Villanova       24-30
Seton Hall.    18-36
Providence.   17-37
St Johns.       18-36
DePaul.          6-48

Now here are the conference records of those same teams since the NBE's inception:

Villanova.      103-23
Providence.     70-56
Seton Hall.      66-60
Marquette.      60-66
Georgetown.   51-75
St Johns.        44-82
DePaul.           28-98

Pretty clear a) what reasonable expectations should have been when the NBE began and b) which teams have exceeded, met or underperformed what was reasonable.


 

Quote from: pettyworld on March 17, 2020, 05:34:00 PM
Yeah and the sentiment continues to be wrong.  Even if his words were misinterpreted or misquoted and he didn't expect 14 straight conference titles or 19 of 20 conference titles, the sentiment was we would be the flagship program in the Big East.  History tells us that it's absurd to expect that out of Marquette, given we've been in 5 (including the old BE and the new BE as separate conferences) different conferences and been affiliated with a conference for 30+ years and we have never once been the flagship program of any of those conferences.  And a number of those conferences were worse than the current BE.  So yes, it's easy to understand why someone would be let down if the expectation was we would be the best program in the conference.

Expecting better than what we've been?  Reasonable.  The flagship program in a conference that includes some very, very strong programs both recently and historically?  Pretty easy to be let down if those are the expectations.

I honestly think you're fighting a strawman.

I expected to be top 3 in the conference perennially with occassional big time March success (2 or more wins).  For a program and school like Marquette, so rich in basketball tradition and so dependent on the sport for exposure, that needs to be the expectation. 

Wojo's product is far far far from that.  Therefore, looping back to the point of this thread, you would be hard pressed convincing me Wojo has done better than a D+.  He's not passing.

Lenny

It was 8 seasons in the old Big East but the records are correct. Your point remains the same. I thought Georgetown, Marquette, Villanova, and Xavier would be consistent top half finishers.

Quote from: MUBB Buff on March 17, 2020, 09:55:11 PM
Lenny

It was 8 seasons in the old Big East but the records are correct. Your point remains the same. I thought Georgetown, Marquette, Villanova, and Xavier would be consistent top half finishers.

Buff

You are correct. Thanks for the catch.

Reading the other board - serious question, does Marquette pay for Dodd's to be the MU apologist? 

Quote from: MUBB Buff on March 17, 2020, 09:55:11 PM
Lenny

It was 8 seasons in the old Big East but the records are correct. Your point remains the same. I thought Georgetown, Marquette, Villanova, and Xavier would be consistent top half finishers.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d1/6e/4c/d16e4c6fb21ec517ade8991396574bf5.jpg)

I wish I was as accurate as Carnac...or as funny

Quote from: WarriorDad on March 17, 2020, 11:05:36 PM
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d1/6e/4c/d16e4c6fb21ec517ade8991396574bf5.jpg)

WTF is this even supposed to mean, Chico? 8 or 9 years is neither here nor there. The point is that we were in the OBE with Nova, GTown, SH, Providence, StJ and DePaul for a long time. We tied with GTown for the best record among the group, better than Villanova and much, much better than SH and Providence. Added to that we entered the NBE with the most momentum of any of those teams. But in the NBE, even former BE doormats SH and Providence have outperformed us and the difference between Nova and us is huge. If you're looking for the silver lining, we came in on a par with GTown and they've sucked worse than us - whoopee!

COVID 19 came at a perfect time for MU & Wojo.  It will cover so many losses.  Now all seat defections will be treated as a bad economy.   

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 17, 2020, 09:32:44 PM
We were in the Old Big East for 9 seasons. Here are the cumulative conference records in those 9 years of the teams that moved to the New Big East:

Marquette   91-49
Georgetown 91-49
Villanova.    82-58
Seton Hall.  54-86
Providence  49-91
St Johns.    48-92
DePaul.       27-113

In the 3 years preceding the NBE's inception:

Marquette     37-17
Georgetown. 36-18
Villanova       24-30
Seton Hall.    18-36
Providence.   17-37
St Johns.       18-36
DePaul.          6-48

Now here are the conference records of those same teams since the NBE's inception:

Villanova.      103-23
Providence.     70-56
Seton Hall.      66-60
Marquette.      60-66
Georgetown.   51-75
St Johns.        44-82
DePaul.           28-98

Pretty clear a) what reasonable expectations should have been when the NBE began and b) which teams have exceeded, met or underperformed what was reasonable.

The momentum from the OBE to the NBE helpful context. My recollection is MU was picked to finish on top in year one of NBE and limped into a 9-9 finish under Buzz. We followed that up with a last place finish and our best player on the court was Matt Carilino. We have been grinding from there. MU, GT, XU, BU, SJU, DU have one thing in common over the last six years versus VU,CU,SH and PU over the same six years which is stability in coaching staff. Just and observation. 

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 17, 2020, 09:32:44 PM
We were in the Old Big East for 9 seasons. Here are the cumulative conference records in those 9 years of the teams that moved to the New Big East:

Thanks for that, Lenny. I felt we were the marquee program coming in. Our Big East success, NCAA success, future projections (ranked in 2013-14 & picked to win the league), and the level we were recruiting at certainly indicated we would be the team to beat for the foreseeable future.

Any argument of "but we'd never been that" is silly. Nova had never been that either, yet here we are. Someone had to be and we were in the best position to do so.

Jesus, this is almost worse then his Jake Arrieta argument.

Quote from: PointWarrior on March 17, 2020, 10:32:05 PM
Reading the other board - serious question, does Marquette pay for Dodd's to be the MU apologist?

Yes!

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 17, 2020, 09:32:44 PM
We were in the Old Big East for 9 seasons. Here are the cumulative conference records in those 9 years of the teams that moved to the New Big East:

Marquette   91-49
Georgetown 91-49
Villanova.    82-58
Seton Hall.  54-86
Providence  49-91
St Johns.    48-92
DePaul.       27-113

In the 3 years preceding the NBE's inception:

Marquette     37-17
Georgetown. 36-18
Villanova       24-30
Seton Hall.    18-36
Providence.   17-37
St Johns.       18-36
DePaul.          6-48

Now here are the conference records of those same teams since the NBE's inception:

Villanova.      103-23
Providence.     70-56
Seton Hall.      66-60
Marquette.      60-66
Georgetown.   51-75
St Johns.        44-82
DePaul.           28-98

Pretty clear a) what reasonable expectations should have been when the NBE began and b) which teams have exceeded, met or underperformed what was reasonable.

Perfectly obvious. thank you

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 17, 2020, 09:32:44 PM
We were in the Old Big East for 9 seasons. Here are the cumulative conference records in those 9 years of the teams that moved to the New Big East:

Marquette   91-49
Georgetown 91-49
Villanova.    82-58
Seton Hall.  54-86
Providence  49-91
St Johns.    48-92
DePaul.       27-113

In the 3 years preceding the NBE's inception:

Marquette     37-17
Georgetown. 36-18
Villanova       24-30
Seton Hall.    18-36
Providence.   17-37
St Johns.       18-36
DePaul.          6-48

Now here are the conference records of those same teams since the NBE's inception:

Villanova.      103-23
Providence.     70-56
Seton Hall.      66-60
Marquette.      60-66
Georgetown.   51-75
St Johns.        44-82
DePaul.           28-98

Pretty clear a) what reasonable expectations should have been when the NBE began and b) which teams have exceeded, met or underperformed what was reasonable.


Great argument Lenny except one major point you are missing. The teams that are ahead of us in the NBE have KEPT their coaches since coming over from the previous BE even though they were trailing MU. The teams behind us had coaching changes.

Quote from: #UnleashJayce on March 18, 2020, 07:03:31 AM
Jesus, this is almost worse then his Jake Arrieta argument.

Lol yeah, Arrieta is as clean as Will Wade, Sean Miller, and Bill Self.

Nova had over twice as many regular season conference titles in program history before the NBE was formed.  Since Al left, even if you take out their success in the NBE, Villanova has been the far, far superior program to Marquette.

Sorry, but it's very clear that part of the disappointment is too high of expectations for the program.  People expected us to suddenly take a jump to places we haven't been since the 1970s.  It'd be awesome if that happened someday.  Personally, I'm not counting on it.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 17, 2020, 12:11:40 PM
I don't disagree, but I think this underscores the problem. Wojo is an average coach. A bit above average as a recruiter, a bit below average as a game coach. Thus far, the average coach has given us average results. Some okay, some a little disappointing, but nothing that makes you excited or completely exasperated.

The question is then what we expect as a program. Is an average program with average results okay? Then Wojo's the guy. But if we want more than average, I don't think he's it.

This is all on point.

My only issue in the grand scheme is there is a portion of Scoop that ignores what Xavier and Butler were prior to Steele and Jordan taking over and being under .500. There is a portion of Scoop that feels if we're not Nova then that means we're no better than DePaul. On and on. It's always the extremes.

Overarching theme of the Big East for the last half decade is that Nova is the program of accomplishment and other programs (excepting DePaul) have little crumbs to hang their hat on but essentially are the same.

Quote from: Golden Avalanche on March 18, 2020, 10:11:37 AM
This is all on point.

My only issue in the grand scheme is there is a portion of Scoop that ignores what Xavier and Butler were prior to Steele and Jordan taking over and being under .500. There is a portion of Scoop that feels if we're not Nova then that means we're no better than DePaul. On and on. It's always the extremes.

Overarching theme of the Big East for the last half decade is that Nova is the program of accomplishment and other programs (excepting DePaul) have little crumbs to hang their hat on but essentially are the same.

Exactly. I did not think there would be a Nova, Kansas, Kentucky, or Gonzaga of the NBE. I expected Nova and Georgetown to be slightly ahead of Marquette, Xavier, and Butler. Nova had far exceeded those expectations.

But going into the NBE I thought the only program with a chance to become the dominating program of the conference was Georgetown. I thought the most likely scenario was a lot of parity with a bunch of similarly minded schools and a few bottom feeder programs.

So far there's been one dominant program, one bottom feeder, and the rest of the programs have had some good years and some bad years.

MU should be better than what they've been. But I don't think it was ever reasonable to assume we'd be fighting for the conference title every single season.

Quote from: MUBB Buff on March 17, 2020, 11:14:06 AM
You are correct. It was a tough choice between giving Wojo a C or D grade but I voted D. In my mind he's been in the C-/D+ range.

Team	Record
Villanova	87-21
Xavier	64-44
Butler	60-48
Providence	60-48
Seton Hall	60-48
Creighton	55-53
Marquette	51-57
Georgetown	43-65
St. John's	35-73
DePaul	25-83

Also, correct me if I am wrong but DePaul, St Johns & Marquette are the only schools without tournament wins since the "new big East" was formed in 2013/2014?

Quote from: WarriorPride68 on March 18, 2020, 10:50:35 AM
Also, correct me if I am wrong but DePaul, St Johns & Marquette are the only schools without tournament wins since the "new big East" was formed in 2013/2014?

Correct. But Georgetown and Creighton each had one win in Buzz's last year. Neither have one a tournament game since Wojo took over.

Quote from: WarriorPride68 on March 18, 2020, 10:50:35 AM
Also, correct me if I am wrong but DePaul, St Johns & Marquette are the only schools without tournament wins since the "new big East" was formed in 2013/2014?

Correct, although 4 more programs only have 1 NCAA tournament win. Still, it's better than 0.

Butler          5
Creighton     1
DePaul         0
Georgetown 1
Marquette    0
Providence   1
Seton Hall    1
St. John's    0
Villanova    16
Xavier         7

Quote from: Golden Avalanche on March 18, 2020, 10:11:37 AM
Overarching theme of the Big East for the last half decade is that Nova is the program of accomplishment and other programs (excepting DePaul) have little crumbs to hang their hat on but essentially are the same.

Completely false, misinformation.  Essentially the same?  St. John and Xavier essentially the same?  Seton Hall and Georgetown essentially the same?  There's an argument to be made that there are 4 tiers of this NBE and, if you can buy into that, Marquette is pretty clearly in the 3rd tier.

Also what are the "little crumbs" Marquette got to "hang their hat on"?  Intentionally vague analogy to, I assume, present as if Marquette has participated in any type of tangible success worth "hanging their hat on" even though this is patently false.

I can't believe that someone really just tried to purport that every team in the NBE has been "essentially the same" outside of Nova and Depaul.  Completely mind-blowing mental gymnastics to maintain an apologetic position for Wojo's subpar (QUITE SUBPAR) program.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 18, 2020, 11:38:42 AM
Completely false, misinformation.  Essentially the same?  St. John and Xavier essentially the same?  Seton Hall and Georgetown essentially the same?  There's an argument to be made that their are 4 tiers of this NBE and, if you can buy into that, Marquette is pretty clearly in the 3rd tier.

Also what are the "little crumbs" Marquette got to "hang their hat on"?  Intentionally vague analogy to, I assume, present as if Marquette has participated in any type of tangible success worth "hanging their hat on" even though this is patently false.

I can't believe that someone really just tried to purport that every team in the NBE has been "essentially the same" outside of Nova and Depaul.  Completely mind-blowing mental gymnastics to maintain an apologetic position for Wojo's subpar (QUITE SUBPAR) program.

To build on my 4 tier theory (since the inception of the new Big East):

Tier 1:  Villanova
Tier 2:  Xavier, Butler
Tier 3:  Seton Hall (I would begin to consider a move to Tier 2 after this season), Marquette, Providence, Creighton
Tier 4:  St. John, Georgetown, Depaul

These tiers are distinct and the teams have NOT been "essentially the same".

Quote from: Golden Avalanche on March 18, 2020, 10:11:37 AMMy only issue in the grand scheme is there is a portion of Scoop that ignores what Xavier and Butler were prior to Steele and Jordan taking over and being under .500. There is a portion of Scoop that feels if we're not Nova then that means we're no better than DePaul. On and on. It's always the extremes.

It's not ignoring Xavier & Butler to say they had to adjust to a significant step up in competition while teams coming from the old Big East were expected to take a step down. I don't think it's unfair to say the established programs had a leg up.

And if we were in the top tier, say with Nova and Xavier, it might be disappointing but more acceptable. If we had 2-3 Big East titles (between league & BET) & were routinely getting 3-7 seeds, that would be a lot different than where we are.

I agree with 5DP that we've essentially been a third tier team. Not the bottom, but not usually able to compete for the top and not making noise in March in either the Big East nor NCAA tournaments.

Whether people like to admit it or not, our results from 2011-13 were the best of any team entering the league. We were recruiting at the highest level. And we were picked universally to win the league from the start. My expectation was that the program stay at roughly the level it was at or modestly improve. I don't think that's an unfair or unrealistic expectation to have had.

Our final rankings in 2011-13 were 20/10/11 and we were preseason #17. Is it unrealistic to think we would remain a top-25 program & a contender every year in a league where the only team to appear ahead of us in any of those rankings was the 2011 Butler runners-up?

Hell, we had finished ranked in 6 of the last 7 years we were in the old Big East. It's not like my expectations were outside what we had already been doing anyway.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 18, 2020, 11:44:12 AM
To build on my 4 tier theory (since the inception of the new Big East):

Tier 1:  Villanova
Tier 2:  Xavier, Butler
Tier 3:  Seton Hall (I would begin to consider a move to Tier 2 after this season), Marquette, Providence, Creighton
Tier 4:  St. John, Georgetown, Depaul

These tiers are distinct and the teams have NOT been "essentially the same".

Cool theory. Stay on topic and make your theory based on the last half decade. You know, the timeframe I used in the post of mine that you quoted.

Quote from: Golden Avalanche on March 18, 2020, 12:18:13 PM
Cool theory. Stay on topic and make your theory based on the last half decade. You know, the timeframe I used in the post of mine that you quoted.

You just called the last 5 years of the Xavier program and the Georgetown program "essentially the same".  You've lost all credibility.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 17, 2020, 11:34:12 PM
WTF is this even supposed to mean, Chico? 8 or 9 years is neither here nor there. The point is that we were in the OBE with Nova, GTown, SH, Providence, StJ and DePaul for a long time. We tied with GTown for the best record among the group, better than Villanova and much, much better than SH and Providence. Added to that we entered the NBE with the most momentum of any of those teams. But in the NBE, even former BE doormats SH and Providence have outperformed us and the difference between Nova and us is huge. If you're looking for the silver lining, we came in on a par with GTown and they've sucked worse than us - whoopee!

I was not quoting you or talking to you.  His prediction of Xavier, Georgetown and Marquette were not so great.  Similar predictions by Carson on his show.  Keep calling me someone else if you desire.

In my view some members here have ignored Butler, Xavier, and Creighton and have myopically focused only on the OBE members that came to the NBE.   

The ignoring of how we started the NBE also cannot be understated.  Picked to win the conference, we finish second tier in Coach Williams first year.  Then a coaching change and the usual player defections that happen as a result which starts the clock on a rebuild. 

Back to my original statement, MU has won three conference titles in over 30 years, in some rather ordinary conferences.  No coach won more than one. Despite this, we are supposed to dominate a top 3 conference when nothing in our history suggests this to be the case, and we have a coaching change, and we bring in other high basketball programs all hoping to establish the same path.   

My final comment for you and others.  It has been repeated here often that the administration will not allow the same recruiting it did for Coach Crean and Coach Williams.  If this is true, then why are you all expecting the same results from this current coach?  Coach Williams left because he couldn't do it, but you expect Wojo to be as good when not allowed to go after the same players?  Would Coach Crean be the same without Wade, Hayward?  Would Coach Williams be the same without Crowder and others?  We should all have the same answer of NO, they wouldn't be.  Therefore, why are you expecting better or even As Good results from this coach when he is not able to recruit the same type of players?

Quote from: WarriorDad on March 18, 2020, 01:22:53 PM
Therefore, why are you expecting better or even As Good results from this coach when he is not able to recruit the same type of players?

Yes, that's it! 

We all should have materially LOWERED our expectations from the program's actual historical results despite transitioning into a conference with multiple newcomers from midmajors and the leftovers from the mid-to-bottom of the old Big East (save Villanova and Georgetown) that was ripe for the taking because Wojo was not allowed to recruit the way he wants (despite the fact that he has already landed multiple blue chip recruits during his tenure and done squat with them).

That's why the majority of the fanbase is dissatisfied with the state of the program.  Excellent point, truly!

Should I even bother with teal?

Wojo got the first McDonald's AA in thirty years to come here, and another on the way. He also recruited the all time leading scorer (as well as a couple of skilled brothers who left after Wojo lost the locker room). We know he's capable of recruiting talented players. His coaching and development skills remain the issue, and that's on him, not the administration.

Quote from: Small Orange Soda on March 18, 2020, 02:21:14 PM
Wojo got the first McDonald's AA in thirty years to come here, and another on the way. He also recruited the all time leading scorer (as well as a couple of skilled brothers who left after Wojo lost the locker room). We know he's capable of recruiting talented players. His coaching and development skills remain the issue, and that's on him, not the administration.

And what in the end did that net us? No Big East Conference Championships, No Big East Tournament Championship, 0 Ncaa Tournament wins. How anyone gave this guy anything but an F is beyond me.

Quote from: HowardsWorld on March 18, 2020, 02:25:41 PM
And what in the end did that net us? No Big East Conference Championships, No Big East Tournament Championship, 0 Ncaa Tournament wins. How anyone gave this guy anything but an F is beyond me.

So a guy who would have been to 3 tournaments in 4 years and has 5 winning seasons gets an F? What grades do you give Travis Steele, Patrick Ewing, Dave Leitao, etc. What about the 300+ coaches who finished worse than Wojo the past few years? You failing 90% of the class?

A C is fair. He's an average coach leading an average program right now.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 18, 2020, 01:58:51 PM
Yes, that's it! 

We all should have materially LOWERED our expectations from the program's actual historical results despite transitioning into a conference with multiple newcomers from midmajors and the leftovers from the mid-to-bottom of the old Big East (save Villanova and Georgetown) that was ripe for the taking because Wojo was not allowed to recruit the way he wants (despite the fact that he has already landed multiple blue chip recruits during his tenure and done squat with them).

That's why the majority of the fanbase is dissatisfied with the state of the program.  Excellent point, truly!

Should I even bother with teal?

You ducked the question.

Quote from: WarriorDad on March 18, 2020, 02:29:23 PM
You ducked the question.

My answer to the question is the inverse of everything I just said tongue-in-cheek.

1.  More than half of the new Big East was either a) coming from a midmajor or b) a perennially mid-tier or bottom-dweller program in the old Big East.
2.  The new Big East was ripe for the "taking"; at least spots in the elite tier of the conference were.
2.  Despite whatever changes were implemented on our recruiting requirements, Wojo has secured multiple blue chip recruits.  However, he has not achieved anything with them.  In some cases, the player has gotten worse or not lived up to their billing as a recruit (Cain comes to mind).  So your "can't get the recruits we want / need / used to get" argument kind of just goes out the window.

Didn't think it would need to be literally spelled out, but alas.

Is Coach Wojo allowed to recruit the same type of players Coach Crean and Coach Williams were able to?  Specifically ineligible academic kids, those that have junior college credits that do not transfer?

If the answer is no and those previous coaches relied so heavily on those types of players for success how can you compare the situations?  You have hampered one coach from going after significant talent the others were allowed to, but expect the same results.  When Coach Williams was unable to sign those types of players in the end, he struggled.  He left.

Quote from: WarriorDad on March 18, 2020, 02:47:24 PM
Is Coach Wojo allowed to recruit the same type of players Coach Crean and Coach Williams were able to?  Specifically ineligible academic kids, those that have junior college credits that do not transfer?

If the answer is no and those previous coaches relied so heavily on those types of players for success how can you compare the situations?  You have hampered one coach from going after significant talent the others were allowed to, but expect the same results.  When Coach Williams was unable to sign those types of players in the end, he struggled.  He left.

Horsesh*t.  All sorts of coaches don't recruit "ineligible academic kids" and perform better than Wojo.

Quote from: WarriorDad on March 18, 2020, 02:47:24 PM
Is Coach Wojo allowed to recruit the same type of players Coach Crean and Coach Williams were able to?  Specifically ineligible academic kids, those that have junior college credits that do not transfer?

If the answer is no and those previous coaches relied so heavily on those types of players for success how can you compare the situations?  You have hampered one coach from going after significant talent the others were allowed to, but expect the same results.  When Coach Williams was unable to sign those types of players in the end, he struggled.  He left.

There's that and now Wojo has to try and get recruits to play in a three year old area. Honestly, I don't know why MU has basketball.

Quote from: BM1090 on March 18, 2020, 02:27:59 PM
So a guy who would have been to 3 tournaments in 4 years and has 5 winning seasons gets an F? What grades do you give Travis Steele, Patrick Ewing, Dave Leitao, etc. What about the 300+ coaches who finished worse than Wojo the past few years? You failing 90% of the class?

A C is fair. He's an average coach leading an average program right now.

This.

Assuming we were going to the tourney this year, it's STILL 3 NCAAs in 4 years.

I know the big-time Wojo haters don't want to hear that. So they take their frustration about legit criticism -- such as our failure to come close to winning a tourney game during his run -- and go to the extreme: F-minus-minus-minus, and lop off his head. It's silly, and it ruins their argument because it's unreasonable.

C is average.  9 out of 10 coaches in America can't claim to have done even that.

So, naturally, FFFFFFFFFFF.

I hate to be seen as "defending" Wojo here. I have made my feelings known. It's just that when reason is thrown into the crapper, why even bother having these discussions?

Quote from: WarriorDad on March 18, 2020, 02:47:24 PM
Is Coach Wojo allowed to recruit the same type of players Coach Crean and Coach Williams were able to?  Specifically ineligible academic kids, those that have junior college credits that do not transfer?

If the answer is no and those previous coaches relied so heavily on those types of players for success how can you compare the situations?  You have hampered one coach from going after significant talent the others were allowed to, but expect the same results.  When Coach Williams was unable to sign those types of players in the end, he struggled.  He left.

Heavily? There was exactly one of those players. Who Marquette has no problems promoting.

Quote from: WarriorDad on March 18, 2020, 02:47:24 PM
When Coach Williams was unable to sign those types of players in the end, he struggled.  He left.

Come off it. He struggled because his best player and would be point guard randomly attempted to go pro.

Quote from: MU82 on March 18, 2020, 03:41:48 PM
This.

Assuming we were going to the tourney this year, it's STILL 3 NCAAs in 4 years.

I know the big-time Wojo haters don't want to hear that. So they take their frustration about legit criticism -- such as our failure to come close to winning a tourney game during his run -- and go to the extreme: F-minus-minus-minus, and lop off his head. It's silly, and it ruins their argument because it's unreasonable.

C is average.  9 out of 10 coaches in America can't claim to have done even that.

So, naturally, FFFFFFFFFFF.

I hate to be seen as "defending" Wojo here. I have made my feelings known. It's just that when reason is thrown into the crapper, why even bother having these discussions?

9/10 coaches in the country don't get the budget of Marquette, the facilities of Marquette, the conference of Marquette, or the name of Marquette.

That's a completely bad argument and I know you're smart enough to know that.

Quote from: #UnleashJayce on March 18, 2020, 04:01:11 PM
9/10 coaches in the country don't get the budget of Marquette, the facilities of Marquette, the conference of Marquette, or the name of Marquette.

That's a completely bad argument and I know you're smart enough to know that.

I'm sticking with "Wojo hasn't won enough and needs to do better. He gets a C."

Aside from the very few bluebloods (and maybe not even them), there isn't a single school in the country that would fire a coach who goes to 3 NCAA tourneys in 4 years. It's obviously not an "F."

Claiming that a coach whose last 4 seasons includes an 82-49 record (39-33 in a very good conference) and 3 NCAA tournament bids is an "F" ... that's a completely bad argument, and I know you're smart enough to know that.

Quote from: MU82 on March 18, 2020, 03:41:48 PM
This.

Assuming we were going to the tourney this year, it's STILL 3 NCAAs in 4 years.

I know the big-time Wojo haters don't want to hear that. So they take their frustration about legit criticism -- such as our failure to come close to winning a tourney game during his run -- and go to the extreme: F-minus-minus-minus, and lop off his head. It's silly, and it ruins their argument because it's unreasonable.

C is average.  9 out of 10 coaches in America can't claim to have done even that.

So, naturally, FFFFFFFFFFF.

I hate to be seen as "defending" Wojo here. I have made my feelings known. It's just that when reason is thrown into the crapper, why even bother having these discussions?

As many people have said "A" as have said "F".  It's hard to say that giving his tenure an "A" is any more reasonable than giving his tenure an "F".

Quote from: MU82 on March 18, 2020, 04:17:30 PM
I'm sticking with "Wojo hasn't won enough and needs to do better. He gets a C."

Aside from the very few bluebloods (and maybe not even them), there isn't a single school in the country that would fire a coach who goes to 3 NCAA tourneys in 4 years. It's obviously not an "F."

Claiming that a coach whose last 4 seasons includes an 82-49 record (39-33 in a very good conference) and 3 NCAA tournament bids is an "F" ... that's a completely bad argument, and I know you're smart enough to know that.

I never gave an f. I voted for arby's

Quote from: WarriorDad on March 18, 2020, 01:22:53 PM
I was not quoting you or talking to you.  His prediction of Xavier, Georgetown and Marquette were not so great.  Similar predictions by Carson on his show.  Keep calling me someone else if you desire.

In my view some members here have ignored Butler, Xavier, and Creighton and have myopically focused only on the OBE members that came to the NBE.   

The ignoring of how we started the NBE also cannot be understated.  Picked to win the conference, we finish second tier in Coach Williams first year.  Then a coaching change and the usual player defections that happen as a result which starts the clock on a rebuild. 

Back to my original statement, MU has won three conference titles in over 30 years, in some rather ordinary conferences.  No coach won more than one. Despite this, we are supposed to dominate a top 3 conference when nothing in our history suggests this to be the case, and we have a coaching change, and we bring in other high basketball programs all hoping to establish the same path.   

My final comment for you and others.  It has been repeated here often that the administration will not allow the same recruiting it did for Coach Crean and Coach Williams.  If this is true, then why are you all expecting the same results from this current coach?  Coach Williams left because he couldn't do it, but you expect Wojo to be as good when not allowed to go after the same players?  Would Coach Crean be the same without Wade, Hayward?  Would Coach Williams be the same without Crowder and others?  We should all have the same answer of NO, they wouldn't be.  Therefore, why are you expecting better or even As Good results from this coach when he is not able to recruit the same type of players?

Well..Wojo had Markus.  The program's all-time leading scorer by a wide margin.  So Crean had Wade.  Buzz had Jae.  The results of one do not look like the other two.

P.S. - Wojo has looked at bringing in JUCO's. He's brought in one and dones, that had ZERO chance of completing their education at MU.  The standards really haven't changed all that much since Larry Williams left.

Let me guess "Warrior Dad," you're probably a big fan of another loser:  Larry Williams.  Right?!

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 18, 2020, 02:35:36 PM
My answer to the question is the inverse of everything I just said tongue-in-cheek.

1.  More than half of the new Big East was either a) coming from a midmajor or b) a perennially mid-tier or bottom-dweller program in the old Big East.
2.  The new Big East was ripe for the "taking"; at least spots in the elite tier of the conference were.
2.  Despite whatever changes were implemented on our recruiting requirements, Wojo has secured multiple blue chip recruits.  However, he has not achieved anything with them.  In some cases, the player has gotten worse or not lived up to their billing as a recruit (Cain comes to mind).  So your "can't get the recruits we want / need / used to get" argument kind of just goes out the window.

Didn't think it would need to be literally spelled out, but alas.

Cain was a blue chip recruit?  Who has gotten worse?  Lol.

Also this idea going around here that because a program came from a mid major conference means there's no reason they should've been able to compete with Marquette coming from the old BE is laughable.  Xavier had been to 4 Sweet 16s in 5 years and Butler had been to the national title game twice in the last half decade heading into the NBE.

But maybe we should get Gonzaga in here so we can get two easy wins each year as the doormat of the BE.  WCC team, no chance they can compete in a high major conference.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 18, 2020, 04:19:48 PM
As many people have said "A" as have said "F".  It's hard to say that giving his tenure an "A" is any more reasonable than giving his tenure an "F".

Only a dope (or somebody havin' fun) would give him an A.

F is ridiculous. To me, D also seems too low for a guy who went to 3 NCAAs in 4 years, but we all have opinions. And B seems far too high.

C is average. For a school with our resources, going 82-49 record (39-33 in a very good conference) and 3 NCAA tournament bids in 4 years merits an average grade IMHO.

I know it's about 6 years. The first year was a throw-away, the second also merited a C at worst IMHO.

Quote from: #UnleashJayce on March 18, 2020, 05:41:35 PM
I never gave an f. I voted for arby's

Well, that's reasonable of course!

Quote from: MU82 on March 18, 2020, 03:41:48 PM
This.

Assuming we were going to the tourney this year, it's STILL 3 NCAAs in 4 years.

I know the big-time Wojo haters don't want to hear that. So they take their frustration about legit criticism -- such as our failure to come close to winning a tourney game during his run -- and go to the extreme: F-minus-minus-minus, and lop off his head. It's silly, and it ruins their argument because it's unreasonable.

C is average.  9 out of 10 coaches in America can't claim to have done even that.

So, naturally, FFFFFFFFFFF.

I hate to be seen as "defending" Wojo here. I have made my feelings known. It's just that when reason is thrown into the crapper, why even bother having these discussions?

Again, I agree with average. But that's the problem. In the decade before Wojo, we weren't average and in the years before him we were significantly above average.

For a Minnesota, Providence, or Boston College, these results would be fine. Maybe even celebrated. But that's not where we were as a program when Wojo arrived and it's not where our expectation level was.

If some have decided average is good enough, I guess that's their prerogative, but I've lost trust in this staff's ability to create an above average program. This isn't where I expected this program to be at 6 years in. Frankly, I can't imagine anyone not being a bit disappointed.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 18, 2020, 07:11:46 PM
Again, I agree with average. But that's the problem. In the decade before Wojo, we weren't average and in the years before him we were significantly above average.

For a Minnesota, Providence, or Boston College, these results would be fine. Maybe even celebrated. But that's not where we were as a program when Wojo arrived and it's not where our expectation level was.

If some have decided average is good enough, I guess that's their prerogative, but I've lost trust in this staff's ability to create an above average program. This isn't where I expected this program to be at 6 years in. Frankly, I can't imagine anyone not being a bit disappointed.

Perfectly stated, Brew.

Figurin' MU administrators are more dan satisfied, aina?

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 18, 2020, 07:11:46 PM
Again, I agree with average. But that's the problem. In the decade before Wojo, we weren't average and in the years before him we were significantly above average.

For a Minnesota, Providence, or Boston College, these results would be fine. Maybe even celebrated. But that's not where we were as a program when Wojo arrived and it's not where our expectation level was.

If some have decided average is good enough, I guess that's their prerogative, but I've lost trust in this staff's ability to create an above average program. This isn't where I expected this program to be at 6 years in. Frankly, I can't imagine anyone not being a bit disappointed.

Agreed. UCLA ran off Alford after be couldn't make a deep tourney run. Texas did same with Rick Barnes. Maryland won share of big ten, but go ask their fans how they feel about him having a lone sweet 16 to show for.

MU hasn't even gotten a tourney win. We should all be pissed

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 18, 2020, 07:11:46 PM
Again, I agree with average. But that's the problem. In the decade before Wojo, we weren't average and in the years before him we were significantly above average.

For a Minnesota, Providence, or Boston College, these results would be fine. Maybe even celebrated. But that's not where we were as a program when Wojo arrived and it's not where our expectation level was.

If some have decided average is good enough, I guess that's their prerogative, but I've lost trust in this staff's ability to create an above average program. This isn't where I expected this program to be at 6 years i.n Frankly, I can't imagine anyone not being a bit disappointed.

Very well said, Brew.

I have no faith at all in Wojo rising above mediocrity. Even if you write off his first 2 years, he had Sam for 3 years and Markus for 4 as well as plenty of time to recruit a balanced roster during that time. Go figure. Yet, apparently there are some people here who are not disappointed. Go figure again.

I will enjoy watching the freshmen next season and have resigned myself to hoping that we are somewhere near the middle of the conference.   

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 18, 2020, 07:11:46 PM
Again, I agree with average. But that's the problem. In the decade before Wojo, we weren't average and in the years before him we were significantly above average.

For a Minnesota, Providence, or Boston College, these results would be fine. Maybe even celebrated. But that's not where we were as a program when Wojo arrived and it's not where our expectation level was.

If some have decided average is good enough, I guess that's their prerogative, but I've lost trust in this staff's ability to create an above average program. This isn't where I expected this program to be at 6 years in. Frankly, I can't imagine anyone not being a bit disappointed.

Nailed it.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 18, 2020, 07:11:46 PM
Again, I agree with average. But that's the problem. In the decade before Wojo, we weren't average and in the years before him we were significantly above average.

For a Minnesota, Providence, or Boston College, these results would be fine. Maybe even celebrated. But that's not where we were as a program when Wojo arrived and it's not where our expectation level was.

If some have decided average is good enough, I guess that's their prerogative, but I've lost trust in this staff's ability to create an above average program. This isn't where I expected this program to be at 6 years in. Frankly, I can't imagine anyone not being a bit disappointed.

I don't disagree with a single thing you say here ... but that doesn't change my grade from C.

I am quite disappointed about the consecutive late-season collapses and the lack of an NCAA tourney wins.

Still ...

To me, an "F" goes to a coach who didn't make the tournament at all and a "D" goes to a coach who maybe only went once in 6 years while also having several losing seasons. But to go 3 times in 4 years while winning 39 conference games over that span? It's a C. It's not good enough, but it's a C. IMHO, of course.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 18, 2020, 07:11:46 PM
Again, I agree with average. But that's the problem. In the decade before Wojo, we weren't average and in the years before him we were significantly above average.

For a Minnesota, Providence, or Boston College, these results would be fine. Maybe even celebrated. But that's not where we were as a program when Wojo arrived and it's not where our expectation level was.

If some have decided average is good enough, I guess that's their prerogative, but I've lost trust in this staff's ability to create an above average program. This isn't where I expected this program to be at 6 years in. Frankly, I can't imagine anyone not being a bit disappointed.

In the decade prior it included three years of no NCAA bids, two of which had no postseason at all, and several no NCAA tournament wins. It included one conference co-championship with the 12th toughest Big East schedule.  When Coach Wojo arrived we were an average program that finished in the second tier, the coach left under the new administration rules, and we started over. 

Don't mess with happy is repeated here.  He left because of changes in whom he was allowed to recruit apparently.  Coach Wojo doesn't have access to that happiness either, but 3 out of 4 NCAA bids anyway.

Here is a stat line since year 6 is used in this topic.

Year 6
Coach Wojo NCAA berth
Coach Williams no post season
Coach Crean NIT berth

Quote from: WarriorPride68 on March 18, 2020, 08:14:32 PM
Agreed. UCLA ran off Alford after be couldn't make a deep tourney run. Texas did same with Rick Barnes. Maryland won share of big ten, but go ask their fans how they feel about him having a lone sweet 16 to show for.

MU hasn't even gotten a tourney win. We should all be pissed

How did that work out for Texas?  Flagship school, talent everywhere, own television network, second largest athletic budget in the country.  They went backwards.

Marquette isn't UCLA or Maryland.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 18, 2020, 10:33:21 PM
Nailed it.

Just an observation that Problem Spotters are a Dime a Dozen in this world based on my experience. Problem solvers are difference makers. The problem in the last two years is games 23-29. Prior to game 23- MU is above expectation I believe. I am over the hill but have run a lot businesses in my life and appreciate antagonists to be the catalyst for change. Change may be replacement or development in my experience.

Pragmatically, it appears to me that we need to solve the late season decline while Providence needs to solve a slow start to the season. Just an observation. It appears recruiting is on track. Just an observation.Broader Coaching staff stability appears to stable.

Wisdom is function of age-experience and learning from mistakes which is a function of time in a job. That is how it worked in my businesses. Our coach is 6 years into the journey while Wright, McDermott, Willard and Cooley are closer to 14 years as a group. Coincidentally, they have finished strong with BE championships. Just and observation.

My last observation is that MU has a long list a assistant coaches starting with Rick Majerus that have been run off for a variety of EMOTIONAL reasons during the developmental cycle that other programs capitalized on (or the coach- O'Neil, Crean, Williams)and maximized the return and MU was left with maximum investment with a one time return and a lack of sustainable (Villanova) return.

Pragmatically, all scoopers want MU to regain a consistent level of top 25 performance as does the University. The cost of change in todays context has a lot of moving pieces including buyouts on both sides likely to exceed $10 million which just got tougher this week. Just an observation.

I am convinced that problem that we need to solve is same one that Florida, Texas and Washington is grappling with is a development process despite adequate resources. Just an observation.

Quote from: MU82 on March 18, 2020, 10:59:23 PM
I don't disagree with a single thing you say here ... but that doesn't change my grade from C.

I am quite disappointed about the consecutive late-season collapses and the lack of an NCAA tourney wins.

Still ...

To me, an "F" goes to a coach who didn't make the tournament at all and a "D" goes to a coach who maybe only went once in 6 years while also having several losing seasons. But to go 3 times in 4 years while winning 39 conference games over that span? It's a C. It's not good enough, but it's a C. IMHO, of course.

I gave Wojo a D - sure the "3 NCAAs in 4 years" is nice, but it obscures how he got there. No other team in the country had two consecutive late-season collapses as big as ours. In one year we went from being a top-10 ranked team to a first round exit. This year we will have went from ranked 18th to a first round exit (if we're going to assume we make the tourney, I think it's safe to assume a first round exit). And those weren't preseason rankings which were completely wacky- they were mid-February rankings. And it's not like either year we faced some buzz-saw of a late season schedule that accounted for the losses. There were lots of Ws left on the table both years. That takes away a lot from the "accomplishment" of 3 NCAAs in 4 years IMHO.

But the bigger issue, I think to Brew's point, is that even at a "C" is that where we want to be 6 years into Wojo's tenure? And like Brew, I think "C" is the ceiling. I'm not really excited about a guy who can keep us on the bubble and find us an early-round loss most years. I think it's clear to all that Wojo is never going to lead us back into the top tier of CBB. And if he can't do that, what's the point of keeping him on? Might as well give someone else a shot. 

It's not just the W/L results Wojo should be graded on, its the general malaise and energy around the program. We had reports the athletic department was blocking comments on Instagram and every Facebook post is filled with vitriol. The naysayers on this board may or may not be in the minority but there is a very vocal segment of the fan base that is sick of seeing this brand of basketball. Thank God for the new arena otherwise I fear ticket sales would be down. I also suspect merchandise sales have been affected.  This matters at Marquette! This coronavirus has knocked the wind out of everybody (be safe!!) but as far as my favorite basketball team is concerned, I wasn't at all excited for the post season. I don't think I am alone.

If he gets a C, it's a C minus. I gave him a D.

Thanks to others for their perspectives, even hoopaloop deuce.

Quote from: MU82 on March 19, 2020, 07:55:31 AM
Thanks to others for their perspectives, even hoopaloop deuce.

I would like to see a picture of the backyard beer summit with new social distancing techniques applied.  Oh wait, that is only for 2 or more people.

Quote from: WarriorDad on March 18, 2020, 11:48:13 PM
Year 6
Coach Wojo NCAA berth
Coach Williams no post season
Coach Crean NIT berth

Except Williams went to two S16s and a E8, and Crean went to a F4, before their year six. 

Wojo has two blowout losses.

And you know this.  And you know its misleading.  Yet you trotted it out anyway. 

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 18, 2020, 07:11:46 PM
Again, I agree with average. But that's the problem. In the decade before Wojo, we weren't average and in the years before him we were significantly above average.

For a Minnesota, Providence, or Boston College, these results would be fine. Maybe even celebrated. But that's not where we were as a program when Wojo arrived and it's not where our expectation level was.

If some have decided average is good enough, I guess that's their prerogative, but I've lost trust in this staff's ability to create an above average program. This isn't where I expected this program to be at 6 years in. Frankly, I can't imagine anyone not being a bit disappointed.

Amen.  Well said.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 19, 2020, 08:01:11 AM

Except Williams went to two S16s and a E8, and Crean went to a F4, before their year six. 

Wojo has two blowout losses.

And you know this.  And you know its misleading.  Yet you trotted it out anyway.

Yes, both Crean and Buzz had more success early in their careers at MU.  Wojo has been disappointing compared to their level of success. But, Crean and Buzz were able to get recruits that would never set foot on campus during Wojo's tenure admitted.  In today's MU, neither Wade nor Crowder would never be admitted.

Quote from: lurch91 on March 19, 2020, 08:28:53 AM
Yes, both Crean and Buzz had more success early in their careers at MU.  Wojo has been disappointing compared to their level of success. But, Crean and Buzz were able to get recruits that would never set foot on campus during Wojo's tenure admitted.  In today's MU, neither Wade nor Crowder would never be admitted.

Oh please.  If you think the problem with Wojo is that Marquette wouldn't let in certain players that his predecessors got to recruit, you are kidding yourself.

And Jae wasn't on the Elite 8 team.  Not a single person from that team wouldn't be admitted now.

And I voted "C" by the way. 

I voted D on the premise from when I used to get report cards that a D reflects needing improvement. If someone voted C, no problem with that. Don't think that winning a BE regular season title once a class, getting to the BET title game 1 or twice per class or being competitive in a tourney game more often than not are unrealistic. 37 of the 75 teams in the top 6 leagues made the tourney in '19. So making the tourney is an average result in a top 6 league.

Quote from: Eye on March 19, 2020, 08:39:09 AM
I voted D on the premise from when I used to get report cards that a D reflects needing improvement. If someone voted C, no problem with that. Don't think that winning a BE regular season title once a class, getting to the BET title game 1 or twice per class or being competitive in a tourney game more often than not are unrealistic. 37 of the 75 teams in the top 6 leagues made the tourney in '19. So making the tourney is an average result in a top 6 league.

Re: conference titles and tournaments - how often has that happened in the past with any of our coaches? And you expect it 25% of the time?

Quote from: WarriorDad on March 18, 2020, 11:48:13 PM
In the decade prior it included three years of no NCAA bids, two of which had no postseason at all, and several no NCAA tournament wins. It included one conference co-championship with the 12th toughest Big East schedule.  When Coach Wojo arrived we were an average program that finished in the second tier, the coach left under the new administration rules, and we started over. 

Don't mess with happy is repeated here.  He left because of changes in whom he was allowed to recruit apparently.  Coach Wojo doesn't have access to that happiness either, but 3 out of 4 NCAA bids anyway.

Here is a stat line since year 6 is used in this topic.

Year 6
Coach Wojo NCAA berth
Coach Williams no post season
Coach Crean NIT berth

This post is nothing but a stupid jab at MU fans and trying to get a rise out of us. Guessing its a badger fan.

I consider a class 5 years with redshirts, etc., rather than 4 FWIW.

10 teams in league - average program should win 1 every 10 years. So an above-average program should win it/tie for it twice every 10 years, or once per class.

10 teams in league - 2 make title game every year. So an average program should make the title game every 5 years. So an above-average team should make it once or twice per class.

Quote from: Eye on March 20, 2020, 07:53:27 AM
I consider a class 5 years with redshirts, etc., rather than 4 FWIW.

10 teams in league - average program should win 1 every 10 years. So an above-average program should win it/tie for it twice every 10 years, or once per class.

10 teams in league - 2 make title game every year. So an average program should make the title game every 5 years. So an above-average team should make it once or twice per class.

Lol.

Please show your work

Quote from: WarriorDad on March 18, 2020, 11:48:13 PM
When Coach Wojo arrived we were an average program

Cheeks

When "Coach Wojo" arrived here we had been in the same conference as Georgetown, Villanova, Providence and Seton Hall for 9 years. Our record in that conference was better than Georgetown and Villanova and light years better than Providence and Seton Hall. Under "Coach Wojo" our record has been light years worse than Villanova and worse than Providence and Seton Hall. The only "positive" is Georgetown's fall has been more precipitous than ours. Hooray!

Quote from: Eye on March 20, 2020, 07:53:27 AM
I consider a class 5 years with redshirts, etc., rather than 4 FWIW.

10 teams in league - average program should win 1 every 10 years. So an above-average program should win it/tie for it twice every 10 years, or once per class.

10 teams in league - 2 make title game every year. So an average program should make the title game every 5 years. So an above-average team should make it once or twice per class.

Huh? That's some unique analysis. by this logic we were a well below average Big East team from 06-12... despite two sweet 16s, a second place finish, 6 tournament appearances, three years making the top 10. But hey no BET finals and no BE Regular season trophy means below average.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 20, 2020, 09:31:39 AM
Huh? That's some unique analysis. by this logic we were a below average Big East team from 06-12... despite two sweet 16s, a second place finish, 6 tournament appearances, three years making the top 10. But hey no BET finals and no BE Regular season trophy means below average.

Yep.

I say that if in Year 1, 2, 3, 6 and 11, a coach hasn't won an NCAA tournament game, he is below average.

Ipso fatso, Al was a below average coach.

Quote from: MU82 on March 20, 2020, 09:41:09 AM
Yep.

I say that if in Year 1, 2, 3, 6 and 11, a coach hasn't won an NCAA tournament game, he is below average.

Ipso fatso, Al was a below average coach.

How many teams were in the tournament in 1974?

Quote from: panda on March 20, 2020, 10:10:14 AM
How many teams were in the tournament in 1974?

Doesn't matter. Just gotta cherry-pick a number of years and create a narrative.

It's rough work, but we Scoopers are always up for it!

The 'Crappy Coach Store' called...said they're running out of Wojo.

Quote from: Warriors, Come Out and Playeeyay on March 20, 2020, 07:12:12 PM
The 'Crappy Coach Store' called...said they're running out of Wojo.

That was super creative! And relevant to the time.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 20, 2020, 09:23:43 AM
Cheeks

When "Coach Wojo" arrived here we had been in the same conference as Georgetown, Villanova, Providence and Seton Hall for 9 years. Our record in that conference was better than Georgetown and Villanova and light years better than Providence and Seton Hall. Under "Coach Wojo" our record has been light years worse than Villanova and worse than Providence and Seton Hall. The only "positive" is Georgetown's fall has been more precipitous than ours. Hooray!

What's a Cheeks?

Quote from: WhiteTrash on March 19, 2020, 01:50:22 PM
This post is nothing but a stupid jab at MU fans and trying to get a rise out of us. Guessing its a badger fan.

You guessed incorrectly.  Funny story, when my oldest applied to Wisconsin years ago I said good luck paying for it on your own.  Ultimately we would have paid for it, but the thought made me ill.

Quote from: MU82 on March 21, 2020, 02:34:35 PM
What's a Cheeks?

A sharp, persistent pain in the ass.