MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Cfollow on February 29, 2020, 03:10:53 PM
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Lose 2 of the next three are they still in? We all know it doesn't matter anyway. If I am any other coach making the tournament I hope like hell to see MU as my first game.
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Season just needs to end. I dont know if seeing MU lose in a tournament game is worth it, in my opinion.
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Season just needs to end. I dont know if seeing MU lose in a tournament game is worth it, in my opinion.
You're a moron then
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Merciful...
8-9 game and we get smoked.
But then again, we got smoked by a 12 seed last year so what the f#ck…
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You're a moron then
Maybe.
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Lose 2 of the next three are they still in? We all know it doesn't matter anyway. If I am any other coach making the tournament I hope like hell to see MU as my first game.
Yes they are still in
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Merciful...
8-9 game and we get smoked.
But then again, we got smoked by a 12 seed last year so what the f#ck…
You're a troll. And a bad Marquette fan.
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You're a troll. And a bad Marquette fan.
No dude he's death on call.
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Lose 2 of the next three are they still in? We all know it doesn't matter anyway. If I am any other coach making the tournament I hope like hell to see MU as my first game.
Lose 3 of 3 and we’re in.
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What if we lose out? Still in?
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What if we lose out? Still in?
Yes
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You're a troll. And a bad Marquette fan.
At least Hopkins is getting it done at Washington for him!
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Get in and lose,whats the difference, this team comes out so often not ready to compete
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Merciful...
8-9 game and we get smoked.
But then again, we got smoked by a 12 seed last year so what the f#ck…
Might be better to be an 8/9 at this point. Play an equally disappointing average team then get some over rated 1seed(so long as it ain’t Kansas).
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Might be better to be an 8/9 at this point. Play an equally disappointing average team then get some over rated 1seed(so long as it ain’t Kansas).
8/9 is always the toughest spot. Not sure we get in
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8/9 is always the toughest spot. Not sure we get in
You're a bad MU "fan"
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Maybe.
🙋🏻♂️
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Merciful...
8-9 game and we get smoked.
But then again, we got smoked by a 12 seed last year so what the f#ck…
Have you ever been a MU fan? Honest question. Rarely seen you say something positive.
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Predicting we get a 10 seed, then make the sweet 16.
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MU currently 25 in NET, this loss will not drop them too much.
Win next two, finish 10-8, lose one finish 9-9. No way they miss the NCAAs.
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What if we lose out? Still in?
Probably.
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I think there's about a 40% chance they get swept at DePaul, St. John's, and 1st game of BET. At this point, they'll range from a 8-10 seed regardless.
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Have you ever been a MU fan? Honest question. Rarely seen you say something positive.
Has 8,000 posts. Awfully dedicated for not being a fan.
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Always negative.
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I think there's about a 40% chance they get swept at DePaul, St. John's, and 1st game of BET. At this point, they'll range from a 8-10 seed regardless.
Get back from the ledge. 5% chance that happens at most
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MU currently 25 in NET, this loss will not drop them too much.
Win next two, finish 10-8, lose one finish 9-9. No way they miss the NCAAs.
Yeah, we're in no matter what, but with this year's field, I would guess we could see a decent seed swing if we get 3 more wins vs just 1 more.
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Really wanted to avoid the 7-10 seeds but its looking like the landing spot rn. I think if we win the next 3 then lose we might steal a 6 seed which is drastically better than 7 through 10
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Always negative.
Not always.
There has to be some allowance for bitching. Let's face it, everything isn't perfect with the program. Complaining has to be accepted - it doesn't mean people are evil, or bad fans. Bear in mind that virtually all of the "negative" posts occur because people want the program to succeed and are frustrated. I don't think folks with a ton of posts are here if they don't follow the program closely and want the best for MU.
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Yes they are still in
Throwing out metrics, numbers etc, do they deserve to be in, based just on their quality(or lack there of) of play?? If your honest, I know how this SHOULD be answered.
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Throwing out metrics, numbers etc, do they deserve to be in, based just on their quality(or lack there of) of play?? If your honest, I know how this SHOULD be answered.
You tell me which teams that miss the tournament "deserved" it more.
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They are a lock, period. Lose out and they are still a lock. Not even a discussion point. Lock, lock, stone cold lock.
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Not always.
There has to be some allowance for bitching. Let's face it, everything isn't perfect with the program. Complaining has to be accepted - it doesn't mean people are evil, or bad fans. Bear in mind that virtually all of the "negative" posts occur because people want the program to succeed and are frustrated. I don't think folks with a ton of posts are here if they don't follow the program closely and want the best for MU.
Thank you Miles, this is very well said...it's like a bunch of posters have their heads buried in the sand and don't want to accept/see reality...either that or they just don't care all that much. Why people jump on the one's that bitch is beyond me. There's problems, and denying it is just being foolish.
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8/9 is always the toughest spot. Not sure we get in
We could lose the next 3 by 20 and we're in.
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Throwing out metrics, numbers etc, do they deserve to be in, based just on their quality(or lack there of) of play?? If your honest, I know how this SHOULD be answered.
Yes. Because compared to other teams they deserve it. They aren't very good though.
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You tell me which teams that miss the tournament "deserved" it more.
Every year there's a bunch of teams that make the tourney that probably don't really deserve it, if you throw out the numbers and just look at their quality of play all year. Sadly, our very own team is one of them this year. Have they really looked like a tournament team to you this year??
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Yes. Because compared to other teams they deserve it. They aren't very good though.
They absolutely deserve to be in. The only people who could argue otherwise aren't watching anyone other than Marquette. The teams behind us on the bubble are flat out bad.
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Lock for the tourney but some clown on here arguing they dont deserve it. Why don't you write a letter to Ncca and argue that. Why don't you go tell the players? what a supportive fan you are.
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Who taught you predictive percentages? That person did not teach you correctly.
I think there's about a 40% chance they get swept at DePaul, St. John's, and 1st game of BET. At this point, they'll range from a 8-10 seed regardless.
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Every year there's a bunch of teams that make the tourney that probably don't really deserve it, if you throw out the numbers and just look at their quality of play all year. Sadly, our very own team is one of them this year. Have they really looked like a tournament team to you this year??
Yes they look good enough to get in. Dont look good enough to make a run though I must admit.
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They absolutely deserve to be in. The only people who could argue otherwise aren't watching anyone other than Marquette. The teams behind us on the bubble are flat out bad.
This is not a knock on you in any way shape or form because you are 100% correct, but this isn't really something to be proud of as MU fans. It's kind of like being the tallest midget.
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Throwing out metrics, numbers etc, do they deserve to be in, based just on their quality(or lack there of) of play?? If your honest, I know how this SHOULD be answered.
Yes they should unquestionably in.
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You tell me which teams that miss the tournament "deserved" it more.
I was just looking at the NET rankings and I admit I know little about them. But Minnesota (13-14) is 46 and Eastern Tennessee State (23-4) is 38.
muguru may have a valid point.
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I was just looking at the NET rankings and I admit I know little about them. But Minnesota (13-14) is 46 and Eastern Tennessee State (23-4) is 38.
muguru may have a valid point.
No its non sense. And anyways why the hell would a fan even mention this? How is saying this positive or productive in any way? They are in and the players have not quit on the season yet. Support them or dont watch jeez
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No its non sense. And anyways why the hell would a fan even mention this? How is saying this positive or productive in any way? They are in and the players have not quit on the season yet. Support them or dont watch jeez
I think muguru was asking a valid question. Nothing wrong with that, especially when it's about a metric that, as Minnesota especially proves, can give some odd output.
It's also valid to ask if we should be in the tournament given Collapse II that we seem to be starting. Losing out would only reinforce that interpretation of the season.
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This is not a knock on you in any way shape or form because you are 100% correct, but this isn't really something to be proud of as MU fans. It's kind of like being the tallest midget.
It's addressing the question at hand. If people want to complain about underachievement, the team not being as good as they hoped, I'm fine with that and don't disagree. But raising the "will we make the tournament" question is just stupidity on display.
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Marquette is undefeated against teams who will not make the tournament (as of today, looking at Prov) so it’s hard to argue against them being included advanced metrics aside. Only 4-10 against tourney teams though. Pretty much what’s been said on here recently. Beat the teams you should, lose to the teams you should.
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I think muguru was asking a valid question. Nothing wrong with that, especially when it's about a metric that, as Minnesota especially proves, can give some odd output.
It's also valid to ask if we should be in the tournament given Collapse II that we seem to be starting. Losing out would only reinforce that interpretation of the season.
What fan would even argue that their own team shouldn't be in? it doesn't even make sense to me. Yeah they dont deserve to be in and it sucks that they will be right. Goofball guru doesnt make the calls for obvious reasons. Any metric used by the commitee would have us obviously in the tournament right now. If we lose the next 3 which I seriously doubt we will, I will admit you might have a small point.
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This is not a knock on you in any way shape or form because you are 100% correct, but this isn't really something to be proud of as MU fans. It's kind of like being the tallest midget.
This is just stupid talk. Getting into the NCAA tournament is an accomplish no matter what. 36 teams get an at large bid while 32 get in win the conference tournament. Since most of those 32 conferences suck Marquette is likely a top 30 team in the country. You are complaining that MU is better than 300 other teams that isn’t an accomplishment. You really are delusional. We may not go deep but you win one game and you are realistically in the top 32 teams.
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They are a lock, period. Lose out and they are still a lock. Not even a discussion point. Lock, lock, stone cold lock.
Yeah but Keefe and Guru and Ners and 5$ disagree. So you’re wrong. F stats. F Q1-2 wins. They are right. You’re wrong.
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Yeah but Keefe and Guru and Ners and 5$ disagree. So you’re wrong. F stats. F Q1-2 wins. They are right. You’re wrong.
Again...I said ignore the metrics, and this is where the good old eye test comes in...if you have watched enough CBB this year and have seen other teams enough...does this team really and truly look/play like an NCAA tournament team to you?? Ignore the fact that they have to take 68 teams, and that other teams will be in there that don't really deserve to be either, but in a typical year, would you say they are NCAA quality with the way they have played this year?? It's an honest question..
To me, they MIGHT be..but barely, and that's the exact issue to me...You can't expect them to get in every year and get really high seeds, but I don't like them getting in and essentially backing their way in. That doesn't make me feel very good.
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Again...I said ignore the metrics, and this is where the good old eye test comes in...if you have watched enough CBB this year and have seen other teams enough...does this team really and truly look/play like an NCAA tournament team to you?? Ignore the fact that they have to take 68 teams, and that other teams will be in there that don't really deserve to be either, but in a typical year, would you say they are NCAA quality with the way they have played this year?? It's an honest question..
To me, they MIGHT be..but barely, and that's the exact issue to me...You can't expect them to get in every year and get really high seeds, but I don't like them getting in and essentially backing their way in. That doesn't make me feel very good.
Some games they absolutely do look like they belong and could win some games. Some games they look like a bubble team. In 2-4 games this year have they looked like they don’t belong in the tournament.
That is why they are in the 7-10 seed conversation.
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Have you ever been a MU fan? Honest question. Rarely seen you say something positive.
Keefe was a fan before Wojo.
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Keefe
(https://versusthefans.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/blogpost003.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRxG2s1Nr5RgW7qpACxzNjcytH95z-wMTU8B0ZS45Vr40LsZAqX)
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Again...I said ignore the metrics, and this is where the good old eye test comes in...if you have watched enough CBB this year and have seen other teams enough...does this team really and truly look/play like an NCAA tournament team to you?? Ignore the fact that they have to take 68 teams, and that other teams will be in there that don't really deserve to be either, but in a typical year, would you say they are NCAA quality with the way they have played this year?? It's an honest question..
To me, they MIGHT be..but barely, and that's the exact issue to me...You can't expect them to get in every year and get really high seeds, but I don't like them getting in and essentially backing their way in. That doesn't make me feel very good.
You’d have to define what a “typical” year is, but I’d probably give you that. I think this team would have gotten buried in the old big east and I thought that one buzz team that snuck in as an 11 seed and went to the sweet16 was way better. That team probably wins this conference. It’s all relative. They deserve to be in this year more than the teams that will just miss the tournament. Call it luck if you want but MU should and will be in.
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Again...I said ignore the metrics, and this is where the good old eye test comes in...if you have watched enough CBB this year and have seen other teams enough...does this team really and truly look/play like an NCAA tournament team to you?? Ignore the fact that they have to take 68 teams, and that other teams will be in there that don't really deserve to be either, but in a typical year, would you say they are NCAA quality with the way they have played this year?? It's an honest question..
To me, they MIGHT be..but barely, and that's the exact issue to me...You can't expect them to get in every year and get really high seeds, but I don't like them getting in and essentially backing their way in. That doesn't make me feel very good.
You claim to watch a lot of college basketball. But you can’t see how much crap teams are out there? Marquette is a near lock. They likely won’t do much, but they are a near lock.
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You claim to watch a lot of college basketball. But you can’t see how much crap teams are out there? Marquette is a near lock. They likely won’t do much, but they are a near lock.
Yes, I know how much crap teams out there, the question from me Sultan wasn't whether they WOULD get in, they will, the question was do they really deserve to get in?? Keep in mind just because other teams that will be there don't deserve to be either, doesn't necessarily mean MU deserves to be. Am I glad they will get in?? Yes, but I'd rather they would be in convincingly, what I mean by that is rather then because they have to fill the field. Being the best of a bad lot doesn't exude much confidence is what I'm saying.
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Yes, I know how much crap teams out there, the question from me Sultan wasn't whether they WOULD get in, they will, the question was do they really deserve to get in?? Keep in mind just because other teams that will be there don't deserve to be either, doesn't necessarily mean MU deserves to be. Am I glad they will get in?? Yes, but I'd rather they would be in convincingly, what I mean by that is rather then because they have to fill the field. Being the best of a bad lot doesn't exude much confidence is what I'm saying.
Can you please define the number of teams that "deserve" to get in this year?
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Again...I said ignore the metrics, and this is where the good old eye test comes in...if you have watched enough CBB this year and have seen other teams enough...does this team really and truly look/play like an NCAA tournament team to you?? Ignore the fact that they have to take 68 teams, and that other teams will be in there that don't really deserve to be either, but in a typical year, would you say they are NCAA quality with the way they have played this year?? It's an honest question..
Yes, let’s compare THIS year’s team to teams in last year’s field, heck let’s throw in next year’s field, to determine if we are a tourney team this year.
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Can you please define the number of teams that "deserve" to get in this year?
Just counting at large only teams..for my money..20-25 maximum.
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Any team that finishes in the top 30-40 of Division 1 deserves to be in the NCAA tournament.
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Yes, I know how much crap teams out there, the question from me Sultan wasn't whether they WOULD get in, they will, the question was do they really deserve to get in?? Keep in mind just because other teams that will be there don't deserve to be either, doesn't necessarily mean MU deserves to be. Am I glad they will get in?? Yes, but I'd rather they would be in convincingly, what I mean by that is rather then because they have to fill the field. Being the best of a bad lot doesn't exude much confidence is what I'm saying.
Of course they deserve to get in.
Is this your new, dumb talking point? “Sure Wojo made the tournament, but he didn’t DESERVE to!!!”
🙄🙄🙄
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We could lose out and probably still make the NCAA.
Sadly, Greg Gard has UW trending in the right direction having won 6 of their last 7 with wins over #'s 7, 8, 25, 31 and 12 in KenPom.
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Keefe
Thanks for posting.
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Goose
Thank you for posting thanking keefe for posting.
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Why are any of you here worried about seeding???????!!!!
We could easily lose big to a mid major or beat a top 3 seed team if the 3s go down. This team no shows so randomly you never know what team is going to show up.
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They beat one decent team all season. They will make the tourney, but I have no idea how anyone can truly be excited about the Wojo era.
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Why are any of you here worried about seeding???????!!!!
We could easily lose big to a mid major or beat a top 3 seed team if the 3s go down. This team no shows so randomly you never know what team is going to show up.
This is the most positive thing you've ever said
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Have you watched the last 4 games? Other than against a depleted GT team at home. they have been awful.
Did you watch the end of last year?
Get back from the ledge. 5% chance that happens at most
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+1 maybe wojo gets lucky and wins tourney game and a desperate bottom feeder P5 school takes him off Marquette's hands.
They beat one decent team all season. They will make the tourney, but I have no idea how anyone can truly be excited about the Wojo era.
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They beat one decent team all season. They will make the tourney, but I have no idea how anyone can truly be excited about the Wojo era.
I think it’s hilarious how often you’ve changed your tune this year. Just 2 weeks ago you were talking about how you knew the team had no shot of advancing in the Tourney last season but this season you wouldn’t be surprised if they made the second weekend. Now it’s all doom and gloom about how many “decent teams” MU has beat this season.
For someone who “knows ball,” I’d think your mood on the team would remain very steady from start to finish. Not the case. Maybe they fooled your superior knowledge for a period of time.
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+1 maybe wojo gets lucky and wins tourney game and a desperate bottom feeder P5 school takes him off Marquette's hands.
If Wojo wins a tournament game and leaves, all you’ll read about on here is how our entitled fan base drove him away. His departure would have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that his best player is leaving and he wants to get out while the getting is good and restart his coaching clock.
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Manes
College ball is at an all time low and they very possibly could get a win or two. Here is a consistent stance, Wojo is in over his head.
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"For someone who “knows ball,” I’d think your mood on the team would remain very steady from start to finish. Not the case. Maybe they fooled your superior knowledge for a period of time."
someone who knows ball, knows things don't remain static. goose has remained steady on his overall assessment. goose and i have had a number of discussions in which i just hung-up and listened, yet hoping wojo was our man. maneman-you were just waiting for a moment to attack a guy who's been willing to say things many, including me, didn't want to hear. he's been nothing but rock steady realistic.
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"For someone who “knows ball,” I’d think your mood on the team would remain very steady from start to finish. Not the case. Maybe they fooled your superior knowledge for a period of time."
someone who knows ball, knows things don't remain static. goose has remained steady on his overall assessment. goose and i have had a number of discussions in which i just hung-up and listened, yet hoping wojo was our man. maneman-you were just waiting for a moment to attack a guy who's been willing to say things many, including me, didn't want to hear. he's been nothing but rock steady realistic.
I wasn’t waiting for anything other than the next time Goose let us all know about how much smarter about “ball” he is than everyone else.
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If Wojo wins a tournament game and leaves, all you’ll read about on here is how our entitled fan base drove him away. His departure would have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that his best player is leaving and he wants to get out while the getting is good and restart his coaching clock.
Yep. If he’s smart he will move on.
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Yep. If he’s smart he will move on.
Who wants this? If Wojo made a run he would hit your metrics for a good coach. Why would you then want him to be grabbed by someone else? If you haven’t been paying attention Wojo has us swimming with more five star recruits then any of the last coaches. He has two more McD AA then any previous coach. You want to lose that for some unknown coach? For some reason, those five stars love his system. He will make three NCAA tournaments in four years and if your wish plays out he would have a sweet sixteen.
Why would you want him to take that elsewhere?
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Who wants this? If Wojo made a run he would hit your metrics for a good coach. Why would you then want him to be grabbed by someone else? If you haven’t been paying attention Wojo has us swimming with more five star recruits then any of the last coaches. He has two more McD AA then any previous coach. You want to lose that for some unknown coach? For some reason, those five stars love his system. He will make three NCAA tournaments in four years and if your wish plays out he would have a sweet sixteen.
Why would you want him to take that elsewhere?
I want him to leave. Because despite the fact that he is a good recruiter, I don't think he's a very good coach. Sure top recruits love his system - because he builds it around them and showcases them in the process. But that always hasn't translated into team success. The end of this season is starting to look distrubingly like last year.
I think we have peaked with Wojo. I want Marquette's peak to be higher than this.
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Bailey, koby and sacar had scored a total of one basket until the last 4 minutes of the game. They hit the equivalent of a few ninth inning homers in a game they were losing 10-0.
SHU role players hit open shots, MUs bricked them at an alarmingly poor rate.
Story of MUs season is not hitting open shots. In all of our losses those three have usually combined to shoot an atrocious number. Yesterday, they were 7-27 combined and that includes sacars 4 baskets and brendans 1 in the last 3 minutes. Before the last 3-4 minutes they were a combined 2-22, simply horrendous and not going to beat anyone.
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Bailey, koby and sacar had scored a total of one basket until the last 4 minutes of the game. They hit the equivalent of a few ninth inning homers in a game they were losing 10-0.
SHU role players hit open shots, MUs bricked them at an alarmingly poor rate.
Story of MUs season is not hitting open shots. In all of our losses those three have usually combined to shoot an atrocious number. Yesterday, they were 7-27 combined and that includes sacars 4 baskets and brendans 1 in the last 3 minutes. Before the last 3-4 minutes they were a combined 2-22, simply horrendous and not going to beat anyone.
This was such a good "take" that you needed to post it word for word in two different topics this morning?
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Just counting at large only teams..for my money..20-25 maximum.
If MU is invited to play they deserve to play. There are typically 2 or 3 teams that people question if they deserve to be in each season. You are the most entitled fan on this message forum and that is a high bar.
Maybe Marquette announces a 5 year extension to drive some people to another team where they will be pleased.
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I want him to leave. Because despite the fact that he is a good recruiter, I don't think he's a very good coach. Sure top recruits love his system - because he builds it around them and showcases them in the process. But that always hasn't translated into team success. The end of this season is starting to look distrubingly like last year.
I think we have peaked with Wojo. I want Marquette's peak to be higher than this.
This is where I’m at. He does good getting a star, but the teams rarely seem cohesive. Especially on defense. I don’t know that we have much of a defensive system that he recruits for.
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This is where I’m at. He does good getting a star, but the teams rarely seem cohesive. Especially on defense. I don’t know that we have much of a defensive system that he recruits for.
It's a bit odd since 2017 was our best offensive team and the only season in the past four that was pretty balanced.
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Who wants this? If Wojo made a run he would hit your metrics for a good coach. Why would you then want him to be grabbed by someone else? If you haven’t been paying attention Wojo has us swimming with more five star recruits then any of the last coaches. He has two more McD AA then any previous coach. You want to lose that for some unknown coach? For some reason, those five stars love his system. He will make three NCAA tournaments in four years and if your wish plays out he would have a sweet sixteen.
Why would you want him to take that elsewhere?
If* is the issue. I don’t think we make a Sweet 16 this year. We take a step back next year.
End of the day I don’t think Wojo is a good enough coach to win at the Sweet 16 level, unless he’s got a team of 5/4 stars. I don’t think we can count on landing 5/4 star talent year in, year out to cover for his coaching deficiencies.
I’ve said before - Wojo is a good guy, reps school well, however I don’t see him being especially bright, charismatic, or inspiring. He’s best suited to be an Assistant Coach.
I’d rather move on and give Stan a chance. Stan is our ace recruiter, he seemed right on in his analysis yesterday during the in the huddle segment - and certainly is more compelling/charismatic. Promote from within. Butler has. Xavier has. MU did with Buzz.
I think we’ve seen the ceiling with Wojo. Sure. We could do worse, yet I don’t feel it’s ever a good practice in business to keep an employee in the highest profile position, out of fear their successor could be worse. (Particularly when 3 of the last 4 “CEO’s” performed better.)
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I just don't understand the logic of wanting Wojo gone but also wanting to promote someone from his staff.
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I just don't understand the logic of wanting Wojo gone but also wanting to promote someone from his staff.
Because Stan’s proven to be a great recruiter, knows our players, recruits and program inside out.
However, assistant coaches do NOT have the authority to press the buttons during games as it relates to roles, rotations, playing time. They give input, but head coach ultimately decides who plays when, where, and in what capacity.
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Because Stan’s proven to be a great recruiter, knows our players, recruits and program inside out.
However, assistant coaches do NOT have the authority to press the buttons during games as it relates to roles, rotations, playing time. They give input, but head coach ultimately decides who plays when, where, and in what capacity.
I don't necessarily want Wojo gone but if he is fired I'd prefer they just do an overhaul. No half measures to keep the recruiting class. I'd rather just stick with Wojo if those are the options.
Maybe Stan is great and proves me wrong at MU or somewhere else, but I just don't see that as a viable solution.
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If* is the issue. I don’t think we make a Sweet 16 this year. We take a step back next year.
End of the day I don’t think Wojo is a good enough coach to win at the Sweet 16 level, unless he’s got a team of 5/4 stars. I don’t think we can count on landing 5/4 star talent year in, year out to cover for his coaching deficiencies.
I’ve said before - Wojo is a good guy, reps school well, however I don’t see him being especially bright, charismatic, or inspiring. He’s best suited to be an Assistant Coach.
I’d rather move on and give Stan a chance. Stan is our ace recruiter, he seemed right on in his analysis yesterday during the in the huddle segment - and certainly is more compelling/charismatic. Promote from within. Butler has. Xavier has. MU did with Buzz.
I think we’ve seen the ceiling with Wojo. Sure. We could do worse, yet I don’t feel it’s ever a good practice in business to keep an employee in the highest profile position, out of fear their successor could be worse. (Particularly when 3 of the last 4 “CEO’s” performed better.)
The assistant coaches are task with doing the game plan and the advance scout. They rotate between the two of them. Stan did the advanced scout for Seton Hall. That is why Wojo was letting him talk in the huddle.
Your comments about Wojo needing good players to win is a homer simpsonism at its best. Of course coaches need better players to be a great team. The art is convincing those better players to come to your team. Takes time.
Just for comparison, in Buzz’s first year he had 3 future NBA players. We can argue that he was responsible for 1 of them in Butler in second year at MU. Butler only played two years under Buzz as head coach. Second year he had four NBA players. Third year he had four. Fourth year he had two (not including Juan), fifth 1 if we include Vander and year six one if we include Deonte.
If we look at this criteria than better players equals better results as a coach.
That isn’t player development either because DJO and Crowder were both good coming in. Crowder only played two years and was a stud both of them.
We can debate that Buzz’s talent was finding underrated Jucos who were ready to make an impact and that made him good. If we look at the four year non-juco player his track record for developing talent isn’t quite as good.
The point however is that Buzz has better players so the results were better. If Wojo gets better players the results will be better. Wojo’s starting point had zero nba players.
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The assistant coaches are task with doing the game plan and the advance scout. They rotate between the two of them. Stan did the advanced scout for Seton Hall. That is why Wojo was letting him talk in the huddle.
Your comments about Wojo needing good players to win is a homer simpsonism at its best. Of course coaches need better players to be a great team. The art is convincing those better players to come to your team. Takes time.
Just for comparison, in Buzz’s first year he had 3 future NBA players. We can argue that he was responsible for 1 of them in Butler in second year at MU. Butler only played two years under Buzz as head coach. Second year he had four NBA players. Third year he had four. Fourth year he had two (not including Juan), fifth 1 if we include Vander and year six one if we include Deonte.
If we look at this criteria than better players equals better results as a coach.
That isn’t player development either because DJO and Crowder were both good coming in. Crowder only played two years and was a stud both of them.
We can debate that Buzz’s talent was finding underrated Jucos who were ready to make an impact and that made him good. If we look at the four year non-juco player his track record for developing talent isn’t quite as good.
The point however is that Buzz has better players so the results were better. If Wojo gets better players the results will be better. Wojo’s starting point had zero nba players.
Mostly agree but all three of Jimmy's years were when Buzz was head coach.
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Right now Creighton is losing at St. John's at halftime.
I think MU is in the tournament even if they lose to DePaul, St. John's and the first game in the Big East tournament.
I also think we have no chance to win a game in the NCAA tournament. It has nothing to do with coaching.
The teams in the NCAA tournament are generally going to be more solid teams overall than MU. MU cannot win with Howard and Anim alone.
Wojo lost his first two NCAA games to more solid teams.
Wojo has done a good job getting three defective teams to the NCAA tournament.
However, Wojo is responsible for team building so ultimately he is responsible.
I think that is the basic difference between other posters and myself. Other posters tend to think MU has talent and Wojo's coaching is holding them down. I do not think Wojo's teams have had a lot of talent overall.
I do not follow it closely enough to know how they actually have fared in NBA, but South Carolina had some potential NBA players on it. Murray St. had the guard who most likely will be NBA rookie of the year this year.
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The assistant coaches are task with doing the game plan and the advance scout. They rotate between the two of them. Stan did the advanced scout for Seton Hall. That is why Wojo was letting him talk in the huddle.
Your comments about Wojo needing good players to win is a homer simpsonism at its best. Of course coaches need better players to be a great team. The art is convincing those better players to come to your team. Takes time.
Just for comparison, in Buzz’s first year he had 3 future NBA players. We can argue that he was responsible for 1 of them in Butler in second year at MU. Butler only played two years under Buzz as head coach. Second year he had four NBA players. Third year he had four. Fourth year he had two (not including Juan), fifth 1 if we include Vander and year six one if we include Deonte.
If we look at this criteria than better players equals better results as a coach.
That isn’t player development either because DJO and Crowder were both good coming in. Crowder only played two years and was a stud both of them.
We can debate that Buzz’s talent was finding underrated Jucos who were ready to make an impact and that made him good. If we look at the four year non-juco player his track record for developing talent isn’t quite as good.
The point however is that Buzz has better players so the results were better. If Wojo gets better players the results will be better. Wojo’s starting point had zero nba players.
Again. Assistant coaches do not decide starting lineup, rotation, playing time. Those decisions matter most. Of course scouting is part of an assistants job - but once the game starts it isn’t the assistant hi gets to decided who’s in/out.
That aside, who is in charge of the roster/talent in the program? Why bag on Buzz? He got it done. Wojo’s development of 4 year high school players? It’s been abysmal - mostly filled with transfer and regression.
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Again...I said ignore the metrics, and this is where the good old eye test comes in...if you have watched enough CBB this year and have seen other teams enough...does this team really and truly look/play like an NCAA tournament team to you?? Ignore the fact that they have to take 68 teams, and that other teams will be in there that don't really deserve to be either, but in a typical year, would you say they are NCAA quality with the way they have played this year?? It's an honest question..
To me, they MIGHT be..but barely, and that's the exact issue to me...You can't expect them to get in every year and get really high seeds, but I don't like them getting in and essentially backing their way in. That doesn't make me feel very good.
You are one miserable dude.
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Right now Creighton is losing at St. John's at halftime.
I think MU is in the tournament even if they lose to DePaul, St. John's and the first game in the Big East tournament.
I also think we have no chance to win a game in the NCAA tournament. It has nothing to do with coaching.
The teams in the NCAA tournament are generally going to be more solid teams overall than MU. MU cannot win with Howard and Anim alone.
Wojo lost his first two NCAA games to more solid teams.
Wojo has done a good job getting three defective teams to the NCAA tournament.
However, Wojo is responsible for team building so ultimately he is responsible.
I think that is the basic difference between other posters and myself. Other posters tend to think MU has talent and Wojo's coaching is holding them down. I do not think Wojo's teams have had a lot of talent overall.
I do not follow it closely enough to know how they actually have fared in NBA, but South Carolina had some potential NBA players on it. Murray St. had the guard who most likely will be NBA rookie of the year this year.
First, saying winning or losing whether in the tournament or otherwise has nothing to do with coaching is nuts.
Second, last year’s team didn’t have talent? The fuq? We were definitely more talented than Murray State and while they had Ja we had Markus. We got housed and that had everything to do with poor coaching.
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Also, to answer the question - MU could lose their next 3 without even being in any of the games, Markus break his leg and we’d still get in. MU is nowhere near the true bubble.
0-3: 9/10 seed
1-2: 7/8 seed
2-1: 6/7 seed
3-1: 6 seed
Win out including BET, we probably get up to a 5. Don’t see that as overly likely.
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Right now Creighton is losing at St. John's at halftime.
I think MU is in the tournament even if they lose to DePaul, St. John's and the first game in the Big East tournament.
I also think we have no chance to win a game in the NCAA tournament. It has nothing to do with coaching.
The teams in the NCAA tournament are generally going to be more solid teams overall than MU. MU cannot win with Howard and Anim alone.
Wojo lost his first two NCAA games to more solid teams.
Wojo has done a good job getting three defective teams to the NCAA tournament.
However, Wojo is responsible for team building so ultimately he is responsible.
I think that is the basic difference between other posters and myself. Other posters tend to think MU has talent and Wojo's coaching is holding them down. I do not think Wojo's teams have had a lot of talent overall.
I do not follow it closely enough to know how they actually have fared in NBA, but South Carolina had some potential NBA players on it. Murray St. had the guard who most likely will be NBA rookie of the year this year.
I agree fully
Unfortunately our two best players rn are howard n Jayce. When we were playing well bailey was playing well. Some for some reason think Anim is better then bad, he is not good at all. Right now we have 3 well below average starters in Anim, Bailey and Koby. None if them would start on good teams. We are Markus howard away from being a rather bad team. Those three missed wide open shot after shot after shot the last month.
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First, saying winning or losing whether in the tournament or otherwise has nothing to do with coaching is nuts.
Second, last year’s team didn’t have talent? The fuq? We were definitely more talented than Murray State and while they had Ja we had Markus. We got housed and that had everything to do with poor coaching.
Did you really just compare a likely NBA rookie of the year and future perennial all-star to Markus, who will be fortunate to stick on an NBA roster?
They are light years apart. Ja ran that team and dominated the game in virtually every aspect. Markus...shot a lot.
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Did you really just compare a likely NBA rookie of the year and future perennial all-star to Markus, who will be fortunate to stick on an NBA roster?
They are light years apart. Ja ran that team and dominated the game in virtually every aspect. Markus...shot a lot.
Nope I didn’t. But it’s not like we took the court without our own NPOY candidate. On top of that we had more talent around Markus than Ja. And we got dragged.
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I want him to leave. Because despite the fact that he is a good recruiter, I don't think he's a very good coach. Sure top recruits love his system - because he builds it around them and showcases them in the process. But that always hasn't translated into team success. The end of this season is starting to look distrubingly like last year.
I think we have peaked with Wojo. I want Marquette's peak to be higher than this.
On this we agree.
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Again. Assistant coaches do not decide starting lineup, rotation, playing time. Those decisions matter most. Of course scouting is part of an assistants job - but once the game starts it isn’t the assistant hi gets to decided who’s in/out.
That aside, who is in charge of the roster/talent in the program? Why bag on Buzz? He got it done. Wojo’s development of 4 year high school players? It’s been abysmal - mostly filled with transfer and regression.
The more you post the more faux-alpha comes out. No leader acts the way you describe. They take information from their team, they listen and the incorporate that into their decision. I would wager that Stan and the other coaches are aligned to the starters, to the minutes and to the approach and not because Wojo told them how it is going to be. They understand the goals and know what the coach is doing. Have you noticed many times the assistants are talking to the player on the bench. Telling them what to do etc. in most cases the coaching team were discussing their team together.
To steal a line from Wojo it isn’t criticism it is fact. I never stated anything negative about Buzz. I simply stated the simple facts. He had more NBA talent on his teams and they were better. That is solely to point out how dumb it is to say Wojo It takes better talent for Wojo’s team to be better. Of course he will get better with better players.
Wojo has a good track record with making four year players better. Wojo’s transfer rate is no better or worse than Crean’s or Buzz’s. Sacar is better, Howard is better, Theo is better, Bailey is better, Cain is better, Sam was better.
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The more you post the more faux-alpha comes out. No leader acts the way you describe. They take information from their team, they listen and the incorporate that into their decision. I would wager that Stan and the other coaches are aligned to the starters, to the minutes and to the approach and not because Wojo told them how it is going to be. They understand the goals and know what the coach is doing. Have you noticed many times the assistants are talking to the player on the bench. Telling them what to do etc. in most cases the coaching team were discussing their team together.
To steal a line from Wojo it isn’t criticism it is fact. I never stated anything negative about Buzz. I simply stated the simple facts. He had more NBA talent on his teams and they were better. That is solely to point out how dumb it is to say Wojo It takes better talent for Wojo’s team to be better. Of course he will get better with better players.
Wojo has a good track record with making four year players better. Wojo’s transfer rate is no better or worse than Crean’s or Buzz’s. Sacar is better, Howard is better, Theo is better, Bailey is better, Cain is better, Sam was better.
Assistant coaches actually talk to players during game with advice/coaching? Who knew? Thanks for that contribution. In your playing days, did the assistant coaches determine substitutions? In mine I never was subbed into a game by assistant coaches. I don’t recall watching MU games and seeing Stan call to the bench for a players to sub in.
You see a lot of improvement in Brendan Bailey, Cain, Theo? Guess you have low standards for what improvement looks like. Markus? Sam? Both those guys had great freshman campaigns. Players should get incrementally better year over year...but to suggest our 4-year kids have improved massively under Wojo? Please. At minimum an equal number have transferred out/regressed.
End of the day, you’ve been a die hard Wojo supporter. I sounded the alarm in the 1st semester of Wojo’s time at MU saying he didn’t have it. 6 years later we are still hoping for just a sniff of March success, with most in our fanbase prepared to a step back in Year 7.
Meanwhile you and your infinite wisdom of basketball as a former participant in the Gus Macker tournament (and Intramural champ) continue to try to prop up the thin accomplishment of our head coach. Carry on, faux alpha.
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I have a couple ideas who I would want instead of Wojo. I have no idea if they are interested or if Marquette would have interest in them. And that's fine because it's not really my job to know.
But Stan is not on that list.
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Let’s say wojo loses the next 2 (not unthinkable as they are on the road). Wojo in year 6 and a first team all-American, once in a generation talent and all we fans can say we are slightly better than GT, SJ, and DePaul. And if they lose to SJ and DePaul to end the season, one would say they are trending worse that SJ and DePaul.
But wojo’s a great coach....
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I mean if you take SJU and GT(all the injuries) and DePaul out of the equation(and SJU did just roll Creighton today) is their a BE team playing worse then MU right now?? Unequivocally no. At a time when you're supposed to be playing your best basketball..
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I mean if you take SJU and GT(all the injuries) and DePaul out of the equation(and SJU did just roll Creighton today) is their a BE team playing worse then MU right now?? Unequivocally no. At a time when you're supposed to be playing your best basketball..
I think we are better than Butler and Xavier in addition to the other three you just mentioned. I don't think we are far behind Nova. Providence and Creighton (today notwhithstanding) have taken their games to new levels and Seton Hall was always above us.
Yesterday was not an example of MU playing poorly. It was an example of a top 15 team playing near their ceiling. Providence was an example of MU playing poorly.
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Assistant coaches actually talk to players during game with advice/coaching? Who knew? Thanks for that contribution. In your playing days, did the assistant coaches determine substitutions? In mine I never was subbed into a game by assistant coaches. I don’t recall watching MU games and seeing Stan call to the bench for a players to sub in.
You see a lot of improvement in Brendan Bailey, Cain, Theo? Guess you have low standards for what improvement looks like. Markus? Sam? Both those guys had great freshman campaigns. Players should get incrementally better year over year...but to suggest our 4-year kids have improved massively under Wojo? Please. At minimum an equal number have transferred out/regressed.
End of the day, you’ve been a die hard Wojo supporter. I sounded the alarm in the 1st semester of Wojo’s time at MU saying he didn’t have it. 6 years later we are still hoping for just a sniff of March success, with most in our fanbase prepared to a step back in Year 7.
Meanwhile you and your infinite wisdom of basketball as a former participant in the Gus Macker tournament (and Intramural champ) continue to try to prop up the thin accomplishment of our head coach. Carry on, faux alpha.
I forgot which Marquette player were you or which D1 school did you play for? I know it was at the highest levels so I assumed you must have that second Gus Macker title if that’s the case. When you compare your high school and rec league playing days to how assistant coaches work in D1 you can see why people get confused.
You were anti-Wojo before the first game and have done as much mental gymnastics as possible to make yourself right. Maybe if you stopped that and look at it without emotion who would realize he is a lot better than you think. You can’t even say when it is obvious players got better. Markus and Sam had good freshman years. They were also the highest ranked kids and they got incrementally better year over year to being top college players. Sacar has gotten significantly better. Theo has gotten significantly better. Cain has gotten significantly better but still hasn’t figured out how to dribble. Bailey has gotten significantly better as a sophomore. I call BS on the transfers because that has been the case for 20years. Remember ODB. Who would transfer when they were going to be a huge part of the system? him. You conveniently overlook the transfer rates under our previous coaches to even develop a bench mark. For every, Cheatham, I can point to and Erik Williams or a MBakwe. Same transfers. Did Roseboro or McKay finish their careers at Marquette? Last I checked they never played for Wojo. Transfers aren’t a Wojo thing they are a Marquette thing.
We have people on here hoping that we get to a sweet sixteen not for Marquette’s success but instead so Wojo decides to leave. Embarrassing to be in that group. If we did hit a S16, he would have hit the heights of Kevin O’Neil.
Four months ago, you were complaining about how we weren’t good enough for the NCAAs. Guess what we are there. 3rd time in 4years. Now the messaging is we are there but don’t deserve it. The rest of college basketball sucks.
If we take the NCAA appearances out, none of our coaches have had conference tournament success so to hold that against Wojo is BS.
I am not pro-Wojo. I am pro-Marquette. I want them to do the best regardless of coach and I am going to root for their success. I also see MU and the Big East in a different place than a lot of people here. I don’t think your top talent players think MU and the Big East as the Mecca of college basketball. I think they look at the Big Ten, ACC, and to some degree the SEC now as the places where the best talent plays. The league needs big time names as coaches and unfortunately the average college basketball fan likely only knows three in the big East and that is Jay Wright, Ewing, and Wojo. Ask one of your Wisconsin buddies if they know Travis Steele, Jordan, McDermott, Anderson, Cooley, or Leitao. They might pick out a few and say they are ok. Somehow Wojo is pulling in the big names so something has to be done right.
If you honestly look at our squad they are significantly better than years 1 and 2. They are also better than 3 and 4. Even without post season success Wojo is bringing in more 5 star kids to even consider the program. I think years 7 and 8 will be our best yet.
Just keep thinking you played at the highest levels and dunking somehow makes you more knowledgeable than the rest of us. I will keep referencing your Gus Macker titles or lack there of.
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I forgot which Marquette player were you or which D1 school did you play for? I know it was at the highest levels so I assumed you must have that second Gus Macker title if that’s the case. When you compare your high school and rec league playing days to how assistant coaches work in D1 you can see why people get confused.
You were anti-Wojo before the first game and have done as much mental gymnastics as possible to make yourself right. Maybe if you stopped that and look at it without emotion who would realize he is a lot better than you think. You can’t even say when it is obvious players got better. Markus and Sam had good freshman years. They were also the highest ranked kids and they got incrementally better year over year to being top college players. Sacar has gotten significantly better. Theo has gotten significantly better. Cain has gotten significantly better but still hasn’t figured out how to dribble. Bailey has gotten significantly better as a sophomore. I call BS on the transfers because that has been the case for 20years. Remember ODB. Who would transfer when they were going to be a huge part of the system? him. You conveniently overlook the transfer rates under our previous coaches to even develop a bench mark. For every, Cheatham, I can point to and Erik Williams or a MBakwe. Same transfers. Did Roseboro or McKay finish their careers at Marquette? Last I checked they never played for Wojo. Transfers aren’t a Wojo thing they are a Marquette thing.
We have people on here hoping that we get to a sweet sixteen not for Marquette’s success but instead so Wojo decides to leave. Embarrassing to be in that group. If we did hit a S16, he would have hit the heights of Kevin O’Neil.
Four months ago, you were complaining about how we weren’t good enough for the NCAAs. Guess what we are there. 3rd time in 4years. Now the messaging is we are there but don’t deserve it. The rest of college basketball sucks.
If we take the NCAA appearances out, none of our coaches have had conference tournament success so to hold that against Wojo is BS.
I am not pro-Wojo. I am pro-Marquette. I want them to do the best regardless of coach and I am going to root for their success. I also see MU and the Big East in a different place than a lot of people here. I don’t think your top talent players think MU and the Big East as the Mecca of college basketball. I think they look at the Big Ten, ACC, and to some degree the SEC now as the places where the best talent plays. The league needs big time names as coaches and unfortunately the average college basketball fan likely only knows three in the big East and that is Jay Wright, Ewing, and Wojo. Ask one of your Wisconsin buddies if they know Travis Steele, Jordan, McDermott, Anderson, Cooley, or Leitao. They might pick out a few and say they are ok. Somehow Wojo is pulling in the big names so something has to be done right.
If you honestly look at our squad they are significantly better than years 1 and 2. They are also better than 3 and 4. Even without post season success Wojo is bringing in more 5 star kids to even consider the program. I think years 7 and 8 will be our best yet.
Just keep thinking you played at the highest levels and dunking somehow makes you more knowledgeable than the rest of us. I will keep referencing your Gus Macker titles or lack there of.
Outstanding defense of Wojos wonders. Give that man a power point.
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If we did hit a S16, he would have hit the heights of Kevin O’Neil.
KO inherited a program in total disarray, one that hadn’t seen success in a long time. A S16 in year 4 was indeed “hitting the heights”. Comparing that situation to inheriting a program that had been to 8 NCAAs in 9 years and to the S16 twice and the E8 once in the previous 4 years is silly.
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KO inherited a program in total disarray, one that hadn’t seen success in a long time. A S16 in year 4 was indeed “hitting the heights”. Comparing that situation to inheriting a program that had been to 8 NCAAs in 9 years and to the S16 twice and the E8 once in the previous 4 years is silly.
But you see the thing is, Buzz missed the postseason entirely his last year (because his best player surprised everyone by going pro) and the success you mentioned happened in the much better Big East where it was easier to recruit and stuff (even though all you hear about on here is how we play in such a tough conference where every game is a dogfight and road wins are literally impossible to get). The Marquette Wojo took over was really a completely different program from what Buzz had to work with. So there.
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But you see the thing is, Buzz missed the postseason entirely his last year (because his best player surprised everyone by going pro) and the success you mentioned happened in the much better Big East where it was easier to recruit and stuff (even though all you hear about on here is how we play in such a tough conference where every game is a dogfight and road wins are literally impossible to get). The Marquette Wojo took over was really a completely different program from what Buzz had to work with. So there.
I wouldn't go this far, but your main point is correct. What players a coach is left with in their first year is a lot more important to immediate success then what the program did 2+ years before. But I think Lenny's point is correct, what a program has done overall speaks more to what the expected ceiling of the new coach should be. KO making the Sweet 16 would be a lot more impressive than Wojo making the Sweet 16 IMHO.
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I wouldn't go this far, but your main point is correct. What players a coach is left with in their first year is a lot more important to immediate success then what the program did 2+ years before. But I think Lenny's point is correct, what a program has done overall speaks more to what the expected ceiling of the new coach should be. KO making the Sweet 16 would be a lot more impressive than Wojo making the Sweet 16 IMHO.
My post was intended to be sarcastic, as I’ve seen BallBoy make those arguments before, but I agree with everything you said. Especially the last sentence.
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I forgot which Marquette player were you or which D1 school did you play for? I know it was at the highest levels so I assumed you must have that second Gus Macker title if that’s the case. When you compare your high school and rec league playing days to how assistant coaches work in D1 you can see why people get confused.
You were anti-Wojo before the first game and have done as much mental gymnastics as possible to make yourself right. Maybe if you stopped that and look at it without emotion who would realize he is a lot better than you think. You can’t even say when it is obvious players got better. Markus and Sam had good freshman years. They were also the highest ranked kids and they got incrementally better year over year to being top college players. Sacar has gotten significantly better. Theo has gotten significantly better. Cain has gotten significantly better but still hasn’t figured out how to dribble. Bailey has gotten significantly better as a sophomore. I call BS on the transfers because that has been the case for 20years. Remember ODB. Who would transfer when they were going to be a huge part of the system? him. You conveniently overlook the transfer rates under our previous coaches to even develop a bench mark. For every, Cheatham, I can point to and Erik Williams or a MBakwe. Same transfers. Did Roseboro or McKay finish their careers at Marquette? Last I checked they never played for Wojo. Transfers aren’t a Wojo thing they are a Marquette thing.
We have people on here hoping that we get to a sweet sixteen not for Marquette’s success but instead so Wojo decides to leave. Embarrassing to be in that group. If we did hit a S16, he would have hit the heights of Kevin O’Neil.
Four months ago, you were complaining about how we weren’t good enough for the NCAAs. Guess what we are there. 3rd time in 4years. Now the messaging is we are there but don’t deserve it. The rest of college basketball sucks.
If we take the NCAA appearances out, none of our coaches have had conference tournament success so to hold that against Wojo is BS.
I am not pro-Wojo. I am pro-Marquette. I want them to do the best regardless of coach and I am going to root for their success. I also see MU and the Big East in a different place than a lot of people here. I don’t think your top talent players think MU and the Big East as the Mecca of college basketball. I think they look at the Big Ten, ACC, and to some degree the SEC now as the places where the best talent plays. The league needs big time names as coaches and unfortunately the average college basketball fan likely only knows three in the big East and that is Jay Wright, Ewing, and Wojo. Ask one of your Wisconsin buddies if they know Travis Steele, Jordan, McDermott, Anderson, Cooley, or Leitao. They might pick out a few and say they are ok. Somehow Wojo is pulling in the big names so something has to be done right.
If you honestly look at our squad they are significantly better than years 1 and 2. They are also better than 3 and 4. Even without post season success Wojo is bringing in more 5 star kids to even consider the program. I think years 7 and 8 will be our best yet.
Just keep thinking you played at the highest levels and dunking somehow makes you more knowledgeable than the rest of us. I will keep referencing your Gus Macker titles or lack there of.
Still waiting for you to answer the question: In your playing days, did your assistant coaching staff make the substitution decisions for you/your team? As in - Hey Ball Boy, sub in for water boy?
For the record, I never said I played at MU or D-1. Where did you pull that from? Did you? Did you even play at the high school level? Wasn’t soccer your thing?
And please, don’t compare Wojo to Kevin O’Neill. And don’t make sh$t up about me wanting Wojo to fail before he even coached a game at MU. That’s absurd. He earned my disdain for the way he coached his first and second teams at MU. However I’ve been trying hard to give him the benefit of the doubt this season.
And if you think Year 7/8 are going to be better, well, that’s pure fantasy. I do appreciate reading your posts as you clearly think you are bright AF as it relates to basketball, but in reality you are totally clueless. (Even with your Gus Macker title.). No doubt three on three half court basketball is the hallmark of hoop wisdom.
Lastly, you aren’t a better fan, nor do you want MU to win anymore than those of us who are critical of Wojo. Instead you perform all kinds of mental masturbation to try to rationalize how and why Wojo has underperformed Buzz, Crean and Kevin O’Neill.
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My post was intended to be sarcastic, as I’ve seen BallBoy make those arguments before, but I agree with everything you said. Especially the last sentence.
My post was intended to ignore your sarcasm ;D
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Still waiting for you to answer the question: In your playing days, did your assistant coaching staff make the substitution decisions for you/your team? As in - Hey Ball Boy, sub in for water boy?
For the record, I never said I played at MU or D-1. Where did you pull that from? Did you? Did you even play at the high school level? Wasn’t soccer your thing?
And please, don’t compare Wojo to Kevin O’Neill. And don’t make sh$t up about me wanting Wojo to fail before he even coached a game at MU. That’s absurd. He earned my disdain for the way he coached his first and second teams at MU. However I’ve been trying hard to give him the benefit of the doubt this season.
And if you think Year 7/8 are going to be better, well, that’s pure fantasy. I do appreciate reading your posts as you clearly think you are bright AF as it relates to basketball, but in reality you are totally clueless. (Even with your Gus Macker title.). No doubt three on three half court basketball is the hallmark of hoop wisdom.
Lastly, you aren’t a better fan, nor do you want MU to win anymore than those of us who are critical of Wojo. Instead you perform all kinds of mental masturbation to try to rationalize how and why Wojo has underperformed Buzz, Crean and Kevin O’Neill.
Poke the faux-alpha and it yips. You can make as many snide remark to prove you are an alpha as you want won’t help.
I know you never played D1 or D2 or D3 but you claimed your basketball knowledge was greater than everyone’s because you played at the highest levels of basketball. I never claimed I did nor have I ever said my basketball knowledge was based my ability to dunk. I thought bringing up the Gus Macker titles would give us a chance to bond over meaningless basketball success so ease up a little bit Uncle RICO.
So to answer your question, assistants play a critical role in the game. They are tracking everything and reminding the coach of minutes played, streaks, foul trouble and are recommending player roles and subs based on data. In most structures they take on either offense or defensive leadership or lead bigs vs guard development. They are in many cases stating their belief on the depth charts. They are scouting the competition and telling the players what to expect. In many cases they engage with the players more so know their strengths and weaknesses better than the head coach. That was how it worked during my playing days (I will leave out the rec league stuff). One person can’t track it all.
We go back to the original point of our little debate whenever you say Wojo is cheating someone of minutes or should be playing someone max minutes or is yanking a player around you are saying that about the entire Marquette coaching team. They are aligned. If they weren’t they wouldn’t be there. there is a reason that it is extremely rare that when a head coach is fired an assistant takes the job without an interim tag. When a coach leaves that is another story. In your dream scenario when Wojo gets fired they aren’t going to hire Stan. He was part of the failure.
If you notice when I compare coaches I just state fact and will also state my opinion on why something might be the case. Fact the pinnacle of O’Neill’s career was a sweet 16. If Wojo hits a sweet 16 the pinnacle of his career is a sweet 16. We can debate whose was harder to achieve but the fact didn’t change. fact the pinnacle of Mike Deane’s career was a Conference USA tournament title. crean’s was a final four. buzz’s was an elite eight.
We can debate what led to his first years being bad. I know you wanted max minutes for Magic Dawson but for some reason two coaching staffs didn’t make that move. I know you want to believe that evil Wojo ran off Burton just because he didn’t like him. Maybe he should have cleaned house like some coaches have done. My opinion he didn’t have enough really good talent.
I never claimed I was a better fan than anyone. Only stated that I am a fan of Marquette over Wojo. My personal believe is for MU success we need someone who wants to build a program for the long haul. Our track record for coaching tenure isn’t great but the longer we have a a good coach who can grow the better we will be. Case in point Willard. Record was mediocre at Iona. First 5 years at Seton Hall were .500 and then magically five straight NCAA tournaments (only one win and including this year where he could be setup well).
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Assistant coaches actually talk to players during game with advice/coaching? Who knew? Thanks for that contribution. In your playing days, did the assistant coaches determine substitutions? In mine I never was subbed into a game by assistant coaches. I don’t recall watching MU games and seeing Stan call to the bench for a players to sub in.
FIFY
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As someone who played college basketball, yes actually, some assistants do sub players in and out.
There's a lot more delegation then there is in youth or high school basketball you dweebs.
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FIFY
Well done.
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Are we still, legitimately having multiple paragraph "bare cupboard" arguments in Year 6? Yikes.
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I never claimed I was a better fan than anyone. Only stated that I am a fan of Marquette over Wojo. My personal believe is for MU success we need someone who wants to build a program for the long haul. Our track record for coaching tenure isn’t great but the longer we have a a good coach who can grow the better we will be. Case in point Willard. Record was mediocre at Iona. First 5 years at Seton Hall were .500 and then magically five straight NCAA tournaments (only one win and including this year where he could be setup well).
Willard is a poor comp for Wojo. Seton Hall was a Big East doormat when he took over, having finished no better than 10th the previous four years under Bobby Gonzalez. SH was a moribund, forgotten program at that point, nothing like the run MU had from 2005-06 to 2012-13. They weren’t quite where we were when KO took over at MU, but they were among the dregs of the conference with South Florida, Rutgers, and DePaul. So, different situation and completely different standard of success. What Willard’s been able to do there has been pretty impressive. I thought they’d fall off the map once that Angel Delgado class left.
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KO inherited a program in total disarray, one that hadn’t seen success in a long time. A S16 in year 4 was indeed “hitting the heights”. Comparing that situation to inheriting a program that had been to 8 NCAAs in 9 years and to the S16 twice and the E8 once in the previous 4 years is silly.
Want to take a look again at the roster Buzz left Marquette with?
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Willard is a poor comp for Wojo. Seton Hall was a Big East doormat when he took over, having finished no better than 10th the previous four years under Bobby Gonzalez. SH was a moribund, forgotten program at that point, nothing like the run MU had from 2005-06 to 2012-13. They weren’t quite where we were when KO took over at MU, but they were among the dregs of the conference with South Florida, Rutgers, and DePaul. So, different situation and completely different standard of success. What Willard’s been able to do there has been pretty impressive. I thought they’d fall off the map once that Angel Delgado class left.
Willard is a poor comp but not for the reason you write about. Two other issues are more important.
Willard had head coaching experience prior to Hall. The only reason he moved on from his mediocre tenure at Iona is because Hall hired Iona's AD. Package deal. Willard had already learned on the job at Iona and he was still unimpressive his first seven years in South Orange.
Willard had the soft landing spot of being at a program no one cares about (including 75% of Hall alums) and being given a wide berth by his AD who stuck with him through multiple off court incidents, multiple inter-program incidents, recruiting violations, consistent .500 conference records, etc.
Wojo isn't operating under any of the same conditions Willard has the last decade at Hall. Two different levels.
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Willard is a poor comp for Wojo. Seton Hall was a Big East doormat when he took over, having finished no better than 10th the previous four years under Bobby Gonzalez. SH was a moribund, forgotten program at that point, nothing like the run MU had from 2005-06 to 2012-13. They weren’t quite where we were when KO took over at MU, but they were among the dregs of the conference with South Florida, Rutgers, and DePaul. So, different situation and completely different standard of success. What Willard’s been able to do there has been pretty impressive. I thought they’d fall off the map once that Angel Delgado class left.
Why couldn't the first 5-6 years of wojos MU tenure be the worst of a 10-20 year career?
That would be the comp I think OP was trying to use
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Circles
1) MU is making the NCAA's (title of the thread)
2) In 6 seasons Wojo will have just 1 season where MU is more than 1 game above .500...last year, or 17% of the time in league play.
3) In 6 seasons MU will have hopefully made the NCAA 3nd weekend once. Let's be positive. Right now it is 0, as is NCAA wins.
4) Conference tourney results have improved but overall have not been an MU strength over multiple coaches.
Buzz was the immediate previous coach. He made the NCAA 2nd weekend 50% of the time, 3 of 6 seasons. And Buzz was 4 games or more over .500 in league play 67% of the time or 4 of 6 times including 14 wins twice.
This is why we are here.
Some people will say historically this and that. Some people will say their annual expectations this and that.
Crean wasn't successful in the NCAA's outside of the Final Four. But that is of course a major accomplishment and counts for a lot. He also had those stronger league records discussed above, 5 out of 9 times over multiple leagues or 56% of the time.
Mike Deane had the stronger league record as defined above 3 out of 5 times or 60% of the time. He wasn't successful in the NCAA's making 2 of 5 and trended downward when leaving.
KO had the stronger league record 40% of the time or 2 of 5 seasons and trended upward when leaving with two NCAA's and a 2nd weekend.
There is a second added perception that compared to some other recent MU coaches that Wojo has not had as good of league results. I understand different leagues and eras etc...apples to oranges.....but it has added to perception.
League record, NCAA results and to a lesser extent conference tourney. The perception there is not as bad due to recent results there.
The long term goal and/or annual expectations for some are frequent 2nd weekends, stronger league finishes, or a top 16 program. Lofty goals in the eyes of some, yes. On the other end of the spectrum, what is the minimum to avoid the cycle of coaching change and starting over? A nice NCAA this year, good recruiting class that adds 1-2 more. etc...
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Circles
1) MU is making the NCAA's (title of the thread)
2) In 6 seasons Wojo will have just 1 season where MU is more than 1 game above .500...last year, or 17% of the time in league play.
3) In 6 seasons MU will have hopefully made the NCAA 3nd weekend once. Let's be positive. Right now it is 0, as is NCAA wins.
4) Conference tourney results have improved but overall have not been an MU strength over multiple coaches.
Buzz was the immediate previous coach. He made the NCAA 2nd weekend 50% of the time, 3 of 6 seasons. And Buzz was 4 games or more over .500 in league play 67% of the time or 4 of 6 times including 14 wins twice.
This is why we are here.
Some people will say historically this and that. Some people will say their annual expectations this and that.
Crean wasn't successful in the NCAA's outside of the Final Four. But that is of course a major accomplishment and counts for a lot. He also had those stronger league records discussed above, 5 out of 9 times over multiple leagues or 56% of the time.
Mike Deane had the stronger league record as defined above 3 out of 5 times or 60% of the time. He wasn't successful in the NCAA's making 2 of 5 and trended downward when leaving.
KO had the stronger league record 40% of the time or 2 of 5 seasons and trended upward when leaving with two NCAA's and a 2nd weekend.
There is a second added perception that compared to some other recent MU coaches that Wojo has not had as good of league results. I understand different leagues and eras etc...apples to oranges.....but it has added to perception.
League record, NCAA results and to a lesser extent conference tourney. The perception there is not as bad due to recent results there.
The long term goal and/or annual expectations for some are frequent 2nd weekends, stronger league finishes, or a top 16 program. Lofty goals in the eyes of some, yes. On the other end of the spectrum, what is the minimum to avoid the cycle of coaching change and starting over? A nice NCAA this year, good recruiting class that adds 1-2 more. etc...
10-8 in 2017 and 12-6 in 2019. That's two, not one. Could be three after this weekend.
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10-8 in 2017 and 12-6 in 2019. That's two, not one. Could be three after this weekend.
He qualified it by saying "more than 1 game over .500" that'd be 11-7 or better.
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Assistant coaches actually talk to players during game with advice/coaching? Who knew? Thanks for that contribution. In your playing days, did the assistant coaches determine substitutions? In mine I never was subbed into a game by assistant coaches. I don’t recall watching MU games and seeing Stan call to the bench for a players to sub in.
Do assistants sub in players? Yes and no. They usually tell the head coach who to sub and when to do it. That's one of their jobs as an assistant. They also talk to players immediately upon them coming off the court to discuss what was going on when they were out there. And, if you've seen players adjust their positioning on the bench it's because they are going to talk to the assistant to discuss strategy before they check-in. I've sat directly behind enough benches at college hoops games to see that and overhear that. I know enough D1 assistants to know what an assistant's job is during the game. Whichever assistant has the scout for the game should be the most vocal if they know what they're doing. I watched one assistant diagramming plays and yelling out adjustments to the head coach during the game.
That is unless the assistants are just bodies occupying chairs on the sidelines like they do at Duke.
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He qualified it by saying "more than 1 game over .500" that'd be 11-7 or better.
isnt 10-8 two games over 500?
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He qualified it by saying "more than 1 game over .500" that'd be 11-7 or better.
What kind of math is this? smh
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isnt 10-8 two games over 500
Right but I think he was going for "if we had lost one more game we'd be .500"
What kind of math is this? smh
Not math, I'm trying to translate ::)
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Why couldn't the first 5-6 years of wojos MU tenure be the worst of a 10-20 year career?
That would be the comp I think OP was trying to use
That is what I am hoping for. The only way to get a long term coach with long term success begins with having a long term coach.
Man I hope this is the guy.
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That is what I am hoping for. The only way to get a long term coach with long term success begins with having a long term coach.
Some would say it starts having success so that the University keeps you around a long time.
Chicken and the Egg question I guess?