Not creative enough for a good thread title.
1) This team needs Markus on the ball. He doesn't have the feel for the game you need from your lead guard (seems before a possession even starts he's already decided it's either time for him to shoot or time for him to pass), but this team needs Markus with the ball in his hands.
2) Wojo needs to run plays to get Bailey the ball more often. He's definitely our second best player, but he doesn't always seek out his shot so he can get lost in the flow of the game.
3) Our bigs are pretty useless against a team like Creighton that can draw them out to the perimeter. They're never going to be scoring threats, so the height advantage doesn't help much on the offensive side of the ball and they are hopeless chasing around forwards on the perimeter.
4) Koby was the only guy who stood a chance of keeping his man in front of him defensively. But he's not a threat to score right now.
5) Your starting backcourt having 2 fouls each within the first 10 minutes of the game isn't ideal. Especially on the road in game 1 of conference play.
6) Not much great to come out of this. Good thing we get to bounce back against...Nova on Saturday. Yippee!
I'd like Marquette to go Division I in men's basketball so we can compete with Creighton. It will mean we have to pay our coach about $1MM and give 13 kids scholarships, but I think it is worth it. Just imagine being able to play with Creighton. That would be awesome!!!
Quote from: WhiteTrash on January 01, 2020, 10:33:14 PM
I'd like Marquette to go Division I in men's basketball so we can compete with Creighton. It will mean we have to pay our coach about $1MM and give 13 kids scholarships, but I think it is worth it. Just imagine being able to play with Creighton. That would be awesome!!!
What?
(http://engineeruprisinggroup.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/hotseat_larget.jpg?w=444)
What I'm hoping the admins feel like after today.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 01, 2020, 10:34:18 PM
What?
No doubt we've seen a "transformation of the program from Bert." Care to comment on your post from January 1, 2015:
Take this season for what it is. A transition year. Wojo looks for different things in a player than what Bert did. Doesn't make 1 better than the other. Just different. There are different ways to win. You could tell from day 1 that a guy like Burton wasn't going to fly with Wojo if he didn't change his style of play. From the coming out and clearly being unhappy with the performance at Madness to the disgusted look on his face when Burton missed a crowd pleasing dunk while up about 50 vs. Wisconsin Lutheran College you can tell Wojo demands fundamental play from everyone regardless of whether it's a pickup game or a National Championship game.
I, for one, am perfectly fine with that. Right now he has 1 player who Bert recruited that Wojo decided he could mold into a player he would like to see and a 1 year rental. Wojo chose more or less none of the players on this roster. I have heard from multiple people the sentiment of "just wait until he had his players in and he'll have this program where it hasn't been since the 70s." Maybe it's just Duke favoritism, but I have a feeling these people will be proven right. He has a vision and his first recruiting class shows he also has a plan.
This year will be more frustrating than any in a while. But after this we will see the transformation of a program. And it's going to be a joy.R-E-L-A-X
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 06:24:32 PM by wadesworld »
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 01, 2020, 10:46:18 PM
No doubt we've seen a "transformation of the program from Bert." Care to comment on your post from January 1, 2015:
Take this season for what it is. A transition year. Wojo looks for different things in a player than what Bert did. Doesn't make 1 better than the other. Just different. There are different ways to win. You could tell from day 1 that a guy like Burton wasn't going to fly with Wojo if he didn't change his style of play. From the coming out and clearly being unhappy with the performance at Madness to the disgusted look on his face when Burton missed a crowd pleasing dunk while up about 50 vs. Wisconsin Lutheran College you can tell Wojo demands fundamental play from everyone regardless of whether it's a pickup game or a National Championship game.
I, for one, am perfectly fine with that. Right now he has 1 player who Bert recruited that Wojo decided he could mold into a player he would like to see and a 1 year rental. Wojo chose more or less none of the players on this roster. I have heard from multiple people the sentiment of "just wait until he had his players in and he'll have this program where it hasn't been since the 70s." Maybe it's just Duke favoritism, but I have a feeling these people will be proven right. He has a vision and his first recruiting class shows he also has a plan.
This year will be more frustrating than any in a while. But after this we will see the transformation of a program. And it's going to be a joy.
R-E-L-A-X
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 06:24:32 PM by wadesworld »
Thank you for the very relevant post regarding the subject matter, tonight's game.
Creighton deserves a lot of credit. They clearly hadn't forgotten MU's impossible win last year, and it showed. They out-everythinged us. Zegarowski, Alexander, and Ballock are all better than anyone on our team not named Howard. Where does McDermott get those wonderful toys?
As for us, we sucked ass. Right now, I think it's a coin flip whether we make the tournament or not. My biggest concern going forward is this: Another Markus Howard ain't walking through that door next year. If we can't make a deep run with a player like that on the roster, a guy who can score 10 points in 90 seconds without breaking a sweat, what does that say about Wojo?
Quote from: wadesworld on January 01, 2020, 10:49:05 PM
Thank you for the very relevant post regarding the subject matter, tonight's game.
Seemed like a good time to get your latest take, here on the 5 year anniversary of that prophecy.
As for tonights game, I'm not surprised we got blown out again. We've seen this movie many times since Wojo took over. You feeling good about next year with Markus gone?
Tonight sucked. Felt like the Murray State game. Wojo had a game plan for Creighton's normal offense, Coach McD anticipated, ran out a completely different look than what they normally run on offense, and Wojo didn't adjust to it. It's a weakness of Wojo's, when an opposing coach does something unexpected, he doubles down and bets that they will regress to their normal offensive game plan. Sometimes it works but when it doesn't it is ugly.
Last season we got torched by the Jays quick perimeter passing leading to open threes. Wojo planned for that and when we forced them into a longer possession we did a good job rotating and covering all of their shooters. We had a complete and utter failure containing penetration. I've never seen Creighton run so many iso plays. When guys like Ballock are looking to drive instead of pass or shoot it is by design to take advantage of a weakness in the opposing defense. Our inability to stay in front of penetrating guards is maddening but our help defense is elite. Wojo overworried about the three point shot which neutralized our help defenders. I would have liked to see the bigs and forwards to stay home and defend the lane. Dare guys like Mahoney, Jefferson, and Bishop to shoot it. Hell, I may have even tried Guru's suggestion of zone. The 5s need to stay near the basket and I'd like Jamal and Bailey to be closer the lane than the the three point line.
This continues to feel like last season. Blown out by a mediocre B1G team on the road (Indiana/Wisconsin). Blown out by a top 10 team on a neutral court (Kansas/Maryland). Blown out on the road in the conference opener (SJU/Creighton). And we may forget but that loss to Saint John's last season was by a bigger margin and I promise that Creighton will finish a lot of higher in KenPom this year than St. John's did last year. That team earned a 5 seed. I think this team has that capability as well. I'm excited to see if we can do it and hopefully avoid the end of season collapse this time.
Quote from: TAMU Garcia on January 01, 2020, 11:02:29 PM
Tonight sucked. Felt like the Murray State game. Wojo had a game plan for Creighton's normal offense, Coach McD anticipated, ran out a completely different look than what they normally run on offense, and Wojo didn't adjust to it. It's a weakness of Wojo's, when an opposing coach does something unexpected, he doubles down and bets that they will regress to their normal offensive game plan. Sometimes it works but when it doesn't it is ugly.
Last season we got torched by the Jays quick perimeter passing leading to open threes. Wojo planned for that and when we forced them into a longer possession we did a good job rotating and covering all of their shooters. We had a complete and utter failure containing penetration. I've never seen Creighton run so many iso plays. When guys like Ballock are looking to drive instead of pass or shoot it is by design to take advantage of a weakness in the opposing defense. Our inability to stay in front of penetrating guards is maddening but our help defense is elite. Wojo overworried about the three point shot which neutralized our help defenders. I would have liked to see the bigs and forwards to stay home and defend the lane. Dare guys like Mahoney, Jefferson, and Bishop to shoot it. Hell, I may have even tried Guru's suggestion of zone. The 5s need to stay near the basket and I'd like Jamal and Bailey to be closer the lane than the the three point line.
This continues to feel like last season. Blown out by a mediocre B1G team on the road (Indiana/Wisconsin). Blown out by a top 10 team on a neutral court (Kansas/Maryland). Blown out on the road in the conference opener (SJU/Creighton). And we may forget but that loss to Saint John's last season was by a bigger margin and I promise that Creighton will finish a lot of higher in KenPom this year than St. John's did last year. That team earned a 5 seed. I think this team has that capability as well. I'm excited to see if we can do it and hopefully avoid the end of season collapse this time.
Creighton put up 104 on us at home last year. Not sure we defended that much better last year?
You know it, I know it, and anyone with a shred of honesty knows it: Losing the Hausers was a big blow. Yet maybe somehow beyond all odds, we will finish better this season and it will be a case of addition by subtraction, yet I'm certainly losing the small bit of faith I was gaining. To go from winning there last year to this beat down is not encouraging.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 01, 2020, 11:11:55 PM
Creighton put up 104 on us at home last year. Not sure we defended that much better last year?
You know it, I know it, and anyone with a shred of honesty knows it: Losing the Hausers was a big blow. Yet maybe somehow beyond all odds, we will finish better this season and it will be a case of addition by subtraction, yet I'm certainly losing the small bit of faith I was gaining. To go from winning there last year to this beat down is not encouraging.
LOL....yes, because they aren't allowed to get better and are the exact same team as last year.
We also lost to Creighton at home last year...with the Hausers...so if we beat Creighton at home this year without them does that blow your argument?
How about we get real and realize every year is different for us and different for the other teams, too.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 01, 2020, 11:11:55 PM
Creighton put up 104 on us at home last year. Not sure we defended that much better last year?
Where did I say we defended them better last season?
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 01, 2020, 11:11:55 PM
You know it, I know it, and anyone with a shred of honesty knows it: Losing the Hausers was a big blow. Yet maybe somehow beyond all odds, we will finish better this season and it will be a case of addition by subtraction, yet I'm certainly losing the small bit of faith I was gaining. To go from winning there last year to this beat down is not encouraging.
Where did I say losing the Hausers wasn't a big blow? Also if we do finish equal to or better than last year's team, why would that make the Hausers addition by subtraction?
Quote from: TAMU Garcia on January 01, 2020, 11:23:11 PM
Where did I say we defended them better last season?
Where did I say losing the Hausers wasn't a big blow? Also if we do finish equal to or better than last year's team, why would that make the Hausers addition by subtraction?
You misconstrued - You were lamenting our defense this game - and I was pointing out that we didn't do any better defending them last season. Also, I know that you know losing the Hausers was a big blow - saw you get jumped on by the few die hard Wojo fans for saying it was a big loss.
Mutaman...a Badger fan (plenty of posts to prove it) suddenly active here tonight.
Ners / Elonmusk super active tonight
Then the same crew list in the game thread that comes out every few weeks. Like clock work
Happy New Year
I'm getting pretty sick of these ass beatings where the game is over at halftime (or very shortly thereafter) to pretty comparable teams on paper.
Under Buzz and Crean it felt like the team was much more competitive even in losses. I put together some data but it really doesn't tell a good story. Crean and Buzz played against much more difficult competition in conference play and some of the biggest outliers for Crean and Buzz were blowouts deep in the NCAA tournament which this regime hasn't even come close to sniffing.
They've been completely blown out three times this year and I hope that changes is all I am saying I guess.
Coach, Year, Losses, Average of Margin of L
Crean, 2000, 14, 9.07
Crean, 2001, 14, 9.57
Crean, 2002, 7, 6.86
Crean, 2003, 6, 12.33
Crean, 2004, 12, 9.83
Crean, 2005, 12, 12.75
Crean, 2006, 11, 7.91
Crean, 2007, 10, 9.40
Crean, 2008, 10, 9.70
Crean totals: 9 years, 96 losses, 9.71 average margin of loss
Buzz, 2009, 10, 8.70
Buzz, 2010, 12, 5.00
Buzz, 2011, 15, 8.33
Buzz, 2012, 8, 10.75
Buzz, 2013, 9, 10.33
Buzz, 2014, 15, 9.20
Buzz Totals: 6 years, 69 losses, 8.54 average margin of loss
Wojo, 2015, 19, 11.58
Wojo, 2016, 13, 12.46
Wojo, 2017, 13, 9.15
Wojo, 2018, 14, 10.71
Wojo, 2019, 10, 9.70
Wojo, 2020, 3, 18.00
Wojo Totals: 5+ years, 72 losses, 11.14 margin
Quote from: AirPunch on January 01, 2020, 11:40:28 PM
I'm getting pretty sick of these ass beatings where the game is over at halftime (or very shortly thereafter) to pretty comparable teams on paper.
Under Buzz and Crean it felt like the team was much more competitive even in losses. I put together some data but it really doesn't tell a good story. Crean and Buzz played against much more difficult competition in conference play and some of the biggest outliers for Crean and Buzz were blowouts deep in the NCAA tournament which this regime hasn't even come close to sniffing.
They've been completely blown out three times this year and I hope that changes is all I am saying I guess.
Coach, Year, Losses, Average of Margin of L
Crean, 2000, 14, 9.07
Crean, 2001, 14, 9.57
Crean, 2002, 7, 6.86
Crean, 2003, 6, 12.33
Crean, 2004, 12, 9.83
Crean, 2005, 12, 12.75
Crean, 2006, 11, 7.91
Crean, 2007, 10, 9.40
Crean, 2008, 10, 9.70
Crean totals: 9 years, 96 losses, 9.71 average margin of loss
Buzz, 2009, 10, 8.70
Buzz, 2010, 12, 5.00
Buzz, 2011, 15, 8.33
Buzz, 2012, 8, 10.75
Buzz, 2013, 9, 10.33
Buzz, 2014, 15, 9.20
Buzz Totals: 6 years, 69 losses, 8.54 average margin of loss
Wojo, 2015, 19, 11.58
Wojo, 2016, 13, 12.46
Wojo, 2017, 13, 9.15
Wojo, 2018, 14, 10.71
Wojo, 2019, 10, 9.70
Wojo, 2020, 3, 18.00
Wojo Totals: 5+ years, 72 losses, 11.14 margin
It was you or someone else that falsely claimed this a few weeks ago. Buzz got blown out plenty of times. Crean did as well. The memories around here are fleeting at best.
Buzz played against one of the weakest Big East ever in the inaugural year and lost a lot.
Crean had server all years in a good CUSA, but not as good as this Big East.
I don't think Bailey is our second best player. I don't think he's the second best scoring option either. He's not top 3 in any statistical category. He's got upside, but he's not showing it consistently enough yet.
I think right now Sacar is the only other consistent option on the floor. He gets to the rim regularly, and despite his issues finishing, he's still scoring regularly. He's also really improved his 3pt shooting, now being a good enough shooter to knock down open shots consistently and even making a few tougher shots. He's also a good on ball defender, a decent enough rebounder, and he makes fewer mental mistakes than most of the rest of the team. To me, he's the second most important guy and the second best for us.
Quote from: skianth16 on January 02, 2020, 12:08:41 AM
I don't think Bailey is our second best player. I don't think he's the second best scoring option either. He's not top 3 in any statistical category. He's got upside, but he's not showing it consistently enough yet.
I think right now Sacar is the only other consistent option on the floor. He gets to the rim regularly, and despite his issues finishing, he's still scoring regularly. He's also really improved his 3pt shooting, now being a good enough shooter to knock down open shots consistently and even making a few tougher shots. He's also a good on ball defender, a decent enough rebounder, and he makes fewer mental mistakes than most of the rest of the team. To me, he's the second most important guy and the second best for us.
Agreed. The biggest question this offseason is going to be how to replace Markus, but Sacar graduating is going to be a tough blow as well.
Quote from: TAMU Garcia on January 01, 2020, 11:02:29 PM
Tonight sucked. Felt like the Murray State game. Wojo had a game plan for Creighton's normal offense, Coach McD anticipated, ran out a completely different look than what they normally run on offense, and Wojo didn't adjust to it. It's a weakness of Wojo's, when an opposing coach does something unexpected, he doubles down and bets that they will regress to their normal offensive game plan. Sometimes it works but when it doesn't it is ugly.
Last season we got torched by the Jays quick perimeter passing leading to open threes. Wojo planned for that and when we forced them into a longer possession we did a good job rotating and covering all of their shooters. We had a complete and utter failure containing penetration. I've never seen Creighton run so many iso plays. When guys like Ballock are looking to drive instead of pass or shoot it is by design to take advantage of a weakness in the opposing defense. Our inability to stay in front of penetrating guards is maddening but our help defense is elite. Wojo overworried about the three point shot which neutralized our help defenders. I would have liked to see the bigs and forwards to stay home and defend the lane. Dare guys like Mahoney, Jefferson, and Bishop to shoot it. Hell, I may have even tried Guru's suggestion of zone. The 5s need to stay near the basket and I'd like Jamal and Bailey to be closer the lane than the the three point line.
This continues to feel like last season. Blown out by a mediocre B1G team on the road (Indiana/Wisconsin). Blown out by a top 10 team on a neutral court (Kansas/Maryland). Blown out on the road in the conference opener (SJU/Creighton). And we may forget but that loss to Saint John's last season was by a bigger margin and I promise that Creighton will finish a lot of higher in KenPom this year than St. John's did last year. That team earned a 5 seed. I think this team has that capability as well. I'm excited to see if we can do it and hopefully avoid the end of season collapse this time.
Perfect analysis. I always say, when you get spanked like that, it's on the coaches for game prep. The key is always the bounce back game from the stinker, however.
For those still lamenting the Hauser departure, I believe this year's team would beat last year's team:
Marcus and Sacar are better and basically do the same thing as last year
BB is turning out to fill sam's role reasonably well and more athletically.
Morrow + Cain replace Joey. Cain provides the offense, Morrow provides the turnovers.
This year has more depth.
As others have noted, this Creighton loss was all about coaching. Bad game plan that didn't fit what Creighton was doing, but also a defensive philosophy that seems to be "let your guy beat you and then try to block the layup/dunk from behind".
Creighton was killing us with a bunch of 6'5" guys... but Wojo wouldn't match that with our more mobile guys. BB/Cain/Koby/Markus/Sacar should have seen the bulk of the minutes together. Change with Greg and Symir for any of them at any time. Play real defense, switch everything. In this game, on offense our bigs were like an extra defender and on defense they were useless. Wojo needs to recognize this and change what he's doing.
I wonder who had the scout and if this could be part of the issue... but really this L is on wojo.
Quote from: WarriorFan on January 02, 2020, 03:39:54 AM
For those still lamenting the Hauser departure, I believe this year's team would beat last year's team:
Marcus and Sacar are better and basically do the same thing as last year
BB is turning out to fill sam's role reasonably well and more athletically.
Morrow + Cain replace Joey. Cain provides the offense, Morrow provides the turnovers.
This year has more depth.
As others have noted, this Creighton loss was all about coaching. Bad game plan that didn't fit what Creighton was doing, but also a defensive philosophy that seems to be "let your guy beat you and then try to block the layup/dunk from behind".
Creighton was killing us with a bunch of 6'5" guys... but Wojo wouldn't match that with our more mobile guys. BB/Cain/Koby/Markus/Sacar should have seen the bulk of the minutes together. Change with Greg and Symir for any of them at any time. Play real defense, switch everything. In this game, on offense our bigs were like an extra defender and on defense they were useless. Wojo needs to recognize this and change what he's doing.
I wonder who had the scout and if this could be part of the issue... but really this L is on wojo.
No.
Quote from: WarriorFan on January 02, 2020, 03:39:54 AM
For those still lamenting the Hauser departure, I believe this year's team would beat last year's team:
I disagree. This year's team will be lucky to make the NCAA Tournament, and maybe, just maybe could sneak into the Top 25. But I don't see this year's team going on 6-7 game win streak and beating quality Big East teams on the road.
Everyone needs to calm down a bit...We lost a game we were supposed to lose. We have won every game this year we were supposed to win. Winning in Omaha probably wasn't going to happen this year if we played well & Creighton will not lose many games at home. I agree that it's concerning and disappointing the way we lost, but these games happen every single year (usually to worse teams). Time to focus on Nova & hopefully this served as a wake up call!
Quote from: mubb3434 on January 02, 2020, 06:48:50 AM
Everyone needs to calm down a bit...We lost a game we were supposed to lose. We have won every game this year we were supposed to win. Winning in Omaha probably wasn't going to happen this year if we played well & Creighton will not lose many games at home. I agree that it's concerning and disappointing the way we lost, but these games happen every single year (usually to worse teams). Time to focus on Nova & hopefully this served as a wake up call!
What? We lost because we did not play defense; and if you go into a game with the attitude we are suppose to lose....well then we'll lose.
I just take the season one game at a time and refrain from how good or bad the team is. After all it is only a basketball game.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on January 02, 2020, 06:54:23 AM
What? We lost because we did not play defense; and if you go into a game with the attitude we are suppose to lose....well then we'll lose.
Agreed, but everyone is acting like the season is over when we just lost one of the toughest games of the year...I remember the same freak out when we lost to Green Bay a few years back & made the elite 8. Only Creighton is way better than GB. This happens every single year.
Life could be worse. We only had to travel to Omaha to get blown out.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/court-report-maine-travels-nearly-11000-miles-the-longest-ever-road-game-trip-to-lose-by-40/
Here's the challenge: We're five years in with our current coach and we're not to where we think we ought to be. In fact, those of us who remember the glory days know we're a long way from where we should be.
Perhaps that's obvious but one of the things that concerns me is what the objectives for the program really are? If we continue to lay eggs like Creighton, how long will it be before attendance at the Computing Castle for our games wanes. Particularly when the Milwaukee Bucks are good again and the Packers and Brewers both are showing signs of life.
Lower attendance means lower revenue. Lower revenue means less resources to do the things the university needs to do. In addition, without a top tier basketball program, does Marquette's national recognition as an institution of higher learning also wane? These are the real issues surrounding our program and should be addressed sooner rather than later.
Nobody is arguing Wojo isn't a person of character. The people around him and the folks that play for us appear by all measures to be decent human beings. And, frankly, I want Wojo to succeed as soon as possible. But, like most of the folks in here, I'm afraid for where we really are — a very ordinary program with mostly average talent and an inability to step up. Garcia and Oso may be part of the answer but they'll be freshmen and that's a lot to put on freshmen.
What we have is a shrewder version of Mike Deane. Wojo recruits better but Deane was a much better in-game coach.
Look, I hope I have to eat some of these words come March. But the losses this year have been telling — Wisconsin, Maryland and now Creighton. All were blow-outs. All had Wojo out-coached and our team "out-thought." All are teams we have to defeat if we intend to make the tournament and be successful in it.
I hate rebuilds but I'm close to thinking we're better off with one than to move through a few more seasons rudderless.
Lack of interior scoring is a huge problem. Our bigs simply cannot score. Our guards don't seem to be quick enough to take it to the basket. I thought this wouldn't be a problem this year but it clearly is.
And yeah put Markus back at point. I know that will result in some turnovers but he is simply not touching the ball enough.
And Wojo's lack of adjustments continues to be a problem.
Quote from: mubb3434 on January 02, 2020, 06:48:50 AM
Everyone needs to calm down a bit...We lost a game we were supposed to lose. We have won every game this year we were supposed to win. Winning in Omaha probably wasn't going to happen this year if we played well & Creighton will not lose many games at home. I agree that it's concerning and disappointing the way we lost, but these games happen every single year (usually to worse teams). Time to focus on Nova & hopefully this served as a wake up call!
I don't understand that logic. So if the team sucks and is only supposed to win 2 games that's ok because we won the two we were supposed to win? I agree with you it is only one game, lets see what happens, but the discouraging thing to me is how we are losing these games and the fact that it does happen every year.
Hard to improve much on Dgies post. That's about where I'm at right now. Had the same thoughts on comparison to Deane while watching last night's game. I live about a 2 1/2 hour drive away and try to attend most weekend home Big East games, and weekend non-conference home games against high-major opponents. As of now, leaning on not coming Saturday. Not worth 8 hours of my time to watch very average basketball. If I'm coming to Milwaukee Saturday, it'll be to watch the Bucks, not MU.
If this is the low point of the conference season then I'm fine with it but it's hard to imagine a worse start.
Dgies, I said essentially the exact same thing to the former BOT Chair roughly 30 days ago. I'm not sure I'm at liberty to share his side of the conversation other than to say that the Board remains firmly in Wojo's camp. So there's that. Let's hope for better things Saturday.
Quote from: hairy worthen on January 02, 2020, 07:52:58 AM
I don't understand that logic. So if the team sucks and is only supposed to win 2 games that's ok because we won the two we were supposed to win? I agree with you it is only one game, lets see what happens, but the discouraging thing to me is how we are losing these games and the fact that it does happen every year.
No...That's not what I'm saying. The point in trying to make is that it is 1 game and that these games happen literally every year. From my perspective, at least it happened in a game we were supposed to lose instead of Providence at home. I agree that it's disappointing and concerning, but no reason to throw the white flag up...Yet...
Can we stop running the PnR with the big men. Opposing teams just double the ball handler and we have no idea how to get out of it. The forward should be the person setting the screen. Our 1 & 5 pick n roll is the most useless play we run.
Quote from: mubb3434 on January 02, 2020, 08:30:21 AM
No...That's not what I'm saying. The point in trying to make is that it is 1 game and that these games happen literally every year. From my perspective, at least it happened in a game we were supposed to lose instead of Providence at home. I agree that it's disappointing and concerning, but no reason to throw the white flag up...Yet...
Agree, For some reason the losses this year seem different, like they will not recover and be ok. Maybe it's because of the Hauser thing and not knowing what to expect.
Quote from: Eye on January 02, 2020, 08:14:01 AM
As of now, leaning on not coming Saturday. Not worth 8 hours of my time to watch very average basketball. If I'm coming to Milwaukee Saturday, it'll be to watch the Bucks, not MU.
Good, give your ticket(s) to someone who likes the team
Quote from: 1SE on January 02, 2020, 08:19:44 AM
If this is the low point of the conference season then I'm fine with it but it's hard to imagine a worse start.
You have a short memory then. We lost by 3 more points to a worse St. John's team last season.
Quote from: jsglow on January 02, 2020, 08:29:52 AM
Dgies, I said essentially the exact same thing to the former BOT Chair roughly 30 days ago. I'm not sure I'm at liberty to share his side of the conversation other than to say that the Board remains firmly in Wojo's camp. So there's that. Let's hope for better things Saturday.
This is why I have completely lowered my expectations for the program. It's just not worth expecting something that the university isn't committed to.
Frenns
Similar feelings here.
Quote from: TAMU Garcia on January 02, 2020, 08:44:06 AM
You have a short memory then. We lost by 3 more points to a worse St. John's team last season.
Not of any conference season, of this conference season.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 02, 2020, 09:08:23 AM
This is why I have completely lowered my expectations for the program. It's just not worth expecting something that the university isn't committed to.
The university isn't committed to? Let me make sure I understand this....are we playing at the Al the rest of the season? Did we cut all the budgets? Are we withdrawing to the Horizon League? Exactly what are we not doing from a commitment perspective?
Quote from: skianth16 on January 02, 2020, 12:08:41 AM
I don't think Bailey is our second best player. I don't think he's the second best scoring option either. He's not top 3 in any statistical category. He's got upside, but he's not showing it consistently enough yet.
I think right now Sacar is the only other consistent option on the floor. He gets to the rim regularly, and despite his issues finishing, he's still scoring regularly. He's also really improved his 3pt shooting, now being a good enough shooter to knock down open shots consistently and even making a few tougher shots. He's also a good on ball defender, a decent enough rebounder, and he makes fewer mental mistakes than most of the rest of the team. To me, he's the second most important guy and the second best for us.
Sacar probably is our second best option right now. But Sacar is a decidedly mediocre high-major player. He starts and plays a lot of minutes because he is an older, experienced, smart player but he is not a great or super-talented player by any means. He's #2 in scoring, but also takes 10+ shots a game, 17 last night. Sacar is our #2 because he has to be, but he is inefficient and does nothing to wow.
Going forward, its great to have an excellent #1 option like we have had in Carlino, Rowsey, and now Markus. But we need to do better than the dime-a-dozen Sacar Anim's of the world to be competitive into March.
Quote from: dgies9156 on January 02, 2020, 07:11:01 AM
Here's the challenge: We're five years in with our current coach and we're not to where we think we ought to be. In fact, those of us who remember the glory days know we're a long way from where we should be.
Perhaps that's obvious but one of the things that concerns me is what the objectives for the program really are? If we continue to lay eggs like Creighton, how long will it be before attendance at the Computing Castle for our games wanes. Particularly when the Milwaukee Bucks are good again and the Packers and Brewers both are showing signs of life.
Lower attendance means lower revenue. Lower revenue means less resources to do the things the university needs to do. In addition, without a top tier basketball program, does Marquette's national recognition as an institution of higher learning also wane? These are the real issues surrounding our program and should be addressed sooner rather than later.
Nobody is arguing Wojo isn't a person of character. The people around him and the folks that play for us appear by all measures to be decent human beings. And, frankly, I want Wojo to succeed as soon as possible. But, like most of the folks in here, I'm afraid for where we really are — a very ordinary program with mostly average talent and an inability to step up. Garcia and Oso may be part of the answer but they'll be freshmen and that's a lot to put on freshmen.
What we have is a shrewder version of Mike Deane. Wojo recruits better but Deane was a much better in-game coach.
Look, I hope I have to eat some of these words come March. But the losses this year have been telling — Wisconsin, Maryland and now Creighton. All were blow-outs. All had Wojo out-coached and our team "out-thought." All are teams we have to defeat if we intend to make the tournament and be successful in it.
I hate rebuilds but I'm close to thinking we're better off with one than to move through a few more seasons rudderless.
I agree with this analysis.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 02, 2020, 09:08:23 AM
This is why I have completely lowered my expectations for the program. It's just not worth expecting something that the university isn't committed to.
The fan part of me keeps fighting against this, but it gets harder every year.
The athletic department and knights of the round table at the university will certainly have to do something when the fiserv forum gets less and less full in the next few seasons.
If it gets bad enough i dont think going back to the AL or arena etc are completely ruled out.
The panic will most definitely ensue if the lower bowl seats start to become readily available.
A couple of more points to expand.
The Creighton offensive game plan was to get our guards in foul trouble early. Post-up Markus, drive at Koby, run and advance in transition, dribble drive on Sacar, paint touches. This was the first time all year with our depth that MU was in early foul trouble. No one off the bench stepped up.
As TAMU pointed out, Wojo's game plan on defense was to extend out on the perimeter like the scheme a few years ago when Rowsey was here. As Wojo said postgame, MU is an inside-out defense but the plan was to press out instead...and Creighton exploited the horrible on ball defense executed. Yet, Creighton was having its way on MU both inside and outside. MU needs to get back to what it can do well and that's protecting the paint.
As we discussed in the past, if MU is to be successful this year, it will take a village to replace the Hausers. Frankly, the effort yesterday, with maybe the exception of Bailey, was not Big East, including and especially the coaches.
The conference grind is brutal, teams know each other well, the coaching is top notch. The good news is MU has the chance to get back on the bike. How and who steps up Saturday will be one to watch. Wojo has a pretty good record of responding, but time will tell.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 02, 2020, 09:08:23 AM
This is why I have completely lowered my expectations for the program. It's just not worth expecting something that the university isn't committed to.
What were your expectations when Wojo was hired?
What are your expectations now that they've been lowered since Wojo was hired?
Quote from: jsglow on January 02, 2020, 08:29:52 AM
Dgies, I said essentially the exact same thing to the former BOT Chair roughly 30 days ago. I'm not sure I'm at liberty to share his side of the conversation other than to say that the Board remains firmly in Wojo's camp. So there's that. Let's hope for better things Saturday.
First off, I'm not surprised you said that to a former BOT member. You were smart enough to marry a Father Ryan spouse!
That aside, of course the BOT is in Wojo's camp. They will be until those lower bowl seats "become available." Or until our games are programmed and scheduled between Evening Devotional, Joel Osteen and Looney Toons on Aurora Community Cable Channel 894. Or until they realize that being DePaul and living off conference revenue rather that creating a name for yourself isn't enough.
Indeed, it's not enough to be a mediocre Big East team. Ask Georgetown why they went to the extreme measure of firing the Thompson family? They knew what they had to do if they expected to reach their glory days again. I'm not there yet but clearly if we have too many more debacles like Creighton, then, well, the revenue will start to fall. The university must nip that in the bud fast because donors aren't going to make up for a lack of revenue commitment because of a lack of winning basketball.
Lots of things you can point at lack of this, lack of that, etc . But it all leads back to wojo lack of coaching
Quote from: warriorfred on January 02, 2020, 06:37:44 AM
I disagree. This year's team will be lucky to make the NCAA Tournament, and maybe, just maybe could sneak into the Top 25. But I don't see this year's team going on 6-7 game win streak and beating quality Big East teams on the road.
Last years BE was not nearly as strong as this years
Quote from: The Deane Team on January 02, 2020, 08:43:37 AM
Good, give your ticket(s) to someone who likes the team
If you want to get into a competition on MU fandom, just let me know. Happy to oblige. You'll lose.
Quote from: Eye on January 02, 2020, 12:24:54 PM
If you want to get into a competition on MU fandom, just let me know. Happy to oblige. You'll lose.
Resident of La Crosse, WI (or there abouts) is a long-time MU season ticket holder...gets his fandom questioned.
Peak Scoop.
Quote from: Golden Avalanche on January 02, 2020, 10:35:20 AM
What were your expectations when Wojo was hired?
What are your expectations now that they've been lowered since Wojo was hired?
Before:
- Top 25 most years - which essentially correlates to our post BE KenPom rankings through 14 -- 6 of 9 years with 2 top-40's
- Optimism for a deep run - which was true most years but Three Amigos first year and Buzz's last
- For reference: Ken Pom beginning 05-06 through 14 (36, 38, 14, 19, 24, 26, 18, 26, 68)
Now:
- Top 40 (actual kenpom -- we have been 93, 97, 32, 53, 33, 32 ('20 to date))
- Get in tourney most years
- Optimism for a tourney win
- Spotless Program
Quote from: TAMU Garcia on January 01, 2020, 11:02:29 PM
Tonight sucked. Felt like the Murray State game. Wojo had a game plan for Creighton's normal offense, Coach McD anticipated, ran out a completely different look than what they normally run on offense, and Wojo didn't adjust to it. It's a weakness of Wojo's, when an opposing coach does something unexpected, he doubles down and bets that they will regress to their normal offensive game plan. Sometimes it works but when it doesn't it is ugly.
Last season we got torched by the Jays quick perimeter passing leading to open threes. Wojo planned for that and when we forced them into a longer possession we did a good job rotating and covering all of their shooters. We had a complete and utter failure containing penetration. I've never seen Creighton run so many iso plays. When guys like Ballock are looking to drive instead of pass or shoot it is by design to take advantage of a weakness in the opposing defense. Our inability to stay in front of penetrating guards is maddening but our help defense is elite. Wojo overworried about the three point shot which neutralized our help defenders. I would have liked to see the bigs and forwards to stay home and defend the lane. Dare guys like Mahoney, Jefferson, and Bishop to shoot it. Hell, I may have even tried Guru's suggestion of zone. The 5s need to stay near the basket and I'd like Jamal and Bailey to be closer the lane than the the three point line.
This continues to feel like last season. Blown out by a mediocre B1G team on the road (Indiana/Wisconsin). Blown out by a top 10 team on a neutral court (Kansas/Maryland). Blown out on the road in the conference opener (SJU/Creighton). And we may forget but that loss to Saint John's last season was by a bigger margin and I promise that Creighton will finish a lot of higher in KenPom this year than St. John's did last year. That team earned a 5 seed. I think this team has that capability as well. I'm excited to see if we can do it and hopefully avoid the end of season collapse this time.
The most reasoned, most accurate analysis I've read since the game. Thank you for this, TAMU.
I am disappointed with our loss last night, and it's primarily on Wojo. These are his players. He is the one in charge of preparing them before games and making adjustments with them during games. If he doesn't like being held accountable, he should get out of coaching.
But it's a long season. How will our Warriors respond? Will it be like we responded last season after the SJ loss? Or will the season become a Wojtastrophe -- and a giant step backward for the program?
We'll see.
Quote from: Eye on January 02, 2020, 12:24:54 PM
If you want to get into a competition on MU fandom, just let me know. Happy to oblige. You'll lose.
You're the one who said it's not worth your time, not me. Congrats on your awesome fandom, I'm very impressed.
Quote from: MU82 on January 02, 2020, 01:45:27 PM
The most reasoned, most accurate analysis I've read since the game. Thank you for this, TAMU.
I am disappointed with our loss last night, and it's primarily on Wojo. These are his players. He is the one in charge of preparing them before games and making adjustments with them during games. If he doesn't like being held accountable, he should get out of coaching.
But it's a long season. How will our Warriors respond? Will it be like we responded last season after the SJ loss? Or will the season become a Wojtastrophe -- and a giant step backward for the program?
We'll see.
Look for Markus to shoot early and often against Villanova. We need to have the opposing team on their heels from jump.
I thought Sacar played a pretty good game yesterday as well as Bailey. Listening to Wojo's presser, I think he was also disappointed in the offensive production of our bigs (as everyone here was as well). The blow-bys are very concerning going forward. I'm also not jumping off a ledge due to a road loss at Creighton. Didn't like how it went down but anticipated a loss going in. Creighton seems like a tough place to play.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 02, 2020, 12:37:18 PM
Before:
- Top 25 most years - which essentially correlates to our post BE KenPom rankings through 14 -- 6 of 9 years with 2 top-40's
- Optimism for a deep run - which was true most years but Three Amigos first year and Buzz's last
- For reference: Ken Pom beginning 05-06 through 14 (36, 38, 14, 19, 24, 26, 18, 26, 68)
Now:
- Top 40 (actual kenpom -- we have been 93, 97, 32, 53, 33, 32 ('20 to date))
- Get in tourney most years
- Optimism for a tourney win
- Spotless Program
And therein lies the problem as that is one the main reasons Wojo was hired. Direct your disappointment with Wojo elsewhere. He is actually delivering on that: Be competitive while running a spotless program.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 02, 2020, 07:40:06 PM
And therein lies the problem as that is one the main reasons Wojo was hired. Direct your disappointment with Wojo elsewhere. He is actually delivering on that: Be competitive while running a spotless program.
I agree Dr. my response was to someone asking about my recalibrated expectations.
Just remember though Bill Cords communicated a very different message when Wojo was hired. The three legged stool just appeared recently.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 02, 2020, 07:49:03 PM
I agree Dr. my response was to someone asking about my recalibrated expectations.
Just remember though Bill Cords communicated a very different message when Wojo was hired. The three legged stool just appeared recently.
I know Frenn's. MU was a mess of a university when Wojo was hired. We were lucky to get Wojo then versus guys running from something, and he had the best plan. Cords told me he had to sell in K, who went way back.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 02, 2020, 07:55:54 PM
I know Frenn's. MU was a mess of a university when Wojo was hired. We were lucky to get Wojo then versus guys running from something, and he had the best plan. Cords told me he had to sell in K, who went way back.
Running to something is exactly right. That's one of the reasons he gets a long leash from me.
Quote from: The Lens on January 02, 2020, 12:32:35 PM
Resident of La Crosse, WI (or there abouts) is a long-time MU season ticket holder...gets his fandom questioned.
Peak Scoop.
Thanks Lens. Tomah these days, so about 35 minutes less drive time one way, but still about 2:25. Between drive, getting there early, game, traffic on way out, it's still about 8 hours door to door to go to a game. And that's without stops for gas, food, occasionally casino, oftentimes solo. It's 2 hours at home. And there won't be any extra empty seats if I don't go tomorrow.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 02, 2020, 12:37:18 PM
Before:
- Top 25 most years - which essentially correlates to our post BE KenPom rankings through 14 -- 6 of 9 years with 2 top-40's
- Optimism for a deep run - which was true most years but Three Amigos first year and Buzz's last
- For reference: Ken Pom beginning 05-06 through 14 (36, 38, 14, 19, 24, 26, 18, 26, 68)
Now:
- Top 40 (actual kenpom -- we have been 93, 97, 32, 53, 33, 32 ('20 to date))
- Get in tourney most years
- Optimism for a tourney win
- Spotless Program
Thank you for this. I'm curious on three things as a result of the breakdown:
1. The slide out of those year end rankings that started under Buzz didn't give Wojo any leeway in your mind? Wasn't the program on a track to fall back no matter what Wojo did his first two seasons?
2. Where does a team like last year fit into these splits? Wojo had a squad competing for a title until, literally, the last second of the season. I'm not sure where the numbers ended up but surely that would be a sign of improvement?
3. You wanted KenPom top 25 at the hiring. Now you want KenPom top 40. Three of the last four years have finished at 32. This season is currently at 20. Is the difference between KenPom 25 and KenPom 32 so drastic that it's caused you to lower expectations?
4. Final note, optimism is such a subjective measurement it's better discussed in person than through a keyboard. For example, you seemed to have optimism for a deep run (also, what's a deep run? Second weekend? Elite Eight/Final Four?) even when Buzz was finishing 9-9 or 10-8 whereas I didn't have the same sense of optimism for a team of average stature like that.
Quote from: Golden Avalanche on January 03, 2020, 09:29:11 AM
4. Final note, optimism is such a subjective measurement it's better discussed in person than through a keyboard. For example, you seemed to have optimism for a deep run (also, what's a deep run? Second weekend? Elite Eight/Final Four?) even when Buzz was finishing 9-9 or 10-8 whereas I didn't have the same sense of optimism for a team of average stature like that.
Some of this just comes down to gut. Does the guy in charge inspire confidence he'll engineer something? Buzz was a tinkerer, you got the sense he'd figure it out. Wojo is a lot like Crean. Has a very detailed instruction manual. But sometimes the Bluejay (or the Pirate, or the Hoya) eats your instruction manual. Then what?
Quote from: Golden Avalanche on January 03, 2020, 09:29:11 AM
Thank you for this. I'm curious on three things as a result of the breakdown:
1. The slide out of those year end rankings that started under Buzz didn't give Wojo any leeway in your mind? Wasn't the program on a track to fall back no matter what Wojo did his first two seasons?
2. Where does a team like last year fit into these splits? Wojo had a squad competing for a title until, literally, the last second of the season. I'm not sure where the numbers ended up but surely that would be a sign of improvement?
3. You wanted KenPom top 25 at the hiring. Now you want KenPom top 40. Three of the last four years have finished at 32. This season is currently at 20. Is the difference between KenPom 25 and KenPom 32 so drastic that it's caused you to lower expectations?
4. Final note, optimism is such a subjective measurement it's better discussed in person than through a keyboard. For example, you seemed to have optimism for a deep run (also, what's a deep run? Second weekend? Elite Eight/Final Four?) even when Buzz was finishing 9-9 or 10-8 whereas I didn't have the same sense of optimism for a team of average stature like that.
What's your hot take on why Wojo is the first coach at MU since Bob Dukiet to not win an NCAA tournament game his first 5 years on the job?
Wojo inherited a higher ranked recruiting class from Buzz, than the one he brings in next year. It's Wojo's fault he failed in utilizing that class, and instead chose to bring in Carlino, max playing time of Derrick Wilson and Juan Anderson, and NOT roll exclusively with all of Duane, Dawson, JJJ, Burton, Luke. Derrick, Juan and Carlino were not the future of the program.
Side note - bringing in Jayce Johnson. Was it really necessary? Theo John is a mess this year. Trying to divide playing time up between 3 guys now? Ed, Theo, Jayce? Morrow has massively regressed from who he was at Iowa.
P.S. Once Wojo takes us to Sweet 16, Sweet 16, Elite 8 three years in a row - then we can start to compare him to Buzz - until then, stop making yourself look foolish. The guy hasn't gotten done. Every year brings a new excuse as to why we don't win in March.
Quote from: Golden Avalanche on January 03, 2020, 09:29:11 AM
Thank you for this. I'm curious on three things as a result of the breakdown:
1. The slide out of those year end rankings that started under Buzz didn't give Wojo any leeway in your mind? Wasn't the program on a track to fall back no matter what Wojo did his first two seasons?
2. Where does a team like last year fit into these splits? Wojo had a squad competing for a title until, literally, the last second of the season. I'm not sure where the numbers ended up but surely that would be a sign of improvement?
3. You wanted KenPom top 25 at the hiring. Now you want KenPom top 40. Three of the last four years have finished at 32. This season is currently at 20. Is the difference between KenPom 25 and KenPom 32 so drastic that it's caused you to lower expectations?
4. Final note, optimism is such a subjective measurement it's better discussed in person than through a keyboard. For example, you seemed to have optimism for a deep run (also, what's a deep run? Second weekend? Elite Eight/Final Four?) even when Buzz was finishing 9-9 or 10-8 whereas I didn't have the same sense of optimism for a team of average stature like that.
I think you are trying to be too linear - however since i am linear too, i will point out you actually identified four things.
1. I didn't make any comments about Wojo only the expectations for the program today...I think based on KenPom and other factors that they are worse than before and I think MU is OK with that. The KenPom results were post BE, not Buzz exclusively. Wojo did in fact miss my reset expectations for the program the first two years. I am not in charge of his performance review, but I would have likely taken it into account if I was.
2. Last year's team seems like the new peak for us. So they hit reset expectations overall -- could have exceeded if the season theoretically ended in Feb.
3. This season is not at 20...its 32. Being within the top 25 means 25 is the floor not the ceiling - so consistent deviation among the top-25 with some good years and some where we aren't quite there. Lately we seem more top 40...partying if we make the top-25 instead of regularly being within that group of teams.
4. Yes optimism is subjective. If you didn't feel like the teams that actually progressed to 2-S16's and an E8 had a chance to make some noise in the tourney, then I cant help you. I felt that the 3-amigo teams had a chance at a S16--unfortunately they fell short (painfully at the last second in some cases). I don't feel like we have had the talent to compete for the S16 in many years. It can happen of course because the tourney can produce crazy results, but I'm not expecting it and more importantly I think MU is OK with it. [EDIT: This isnt meant to be a knock on the players - strong coaching/systems can make up for not top-tier athletes...I dont feel like we have that to make up for the skill gap].
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 03, 2020, 10:42:30 AM
What's your hot take on why Wojo is the first coach at MU since Bob Dukiet to not win an NCAA tournament game his first 5 years on the job?
Wojo inherited a higher ranked recruiting class from Buzz, than the one he brings in next year. It's Wojo's fault he failed in utilizing that class, and instead chose to bring in Carlino, max playing time of Derrick Wilson and Juan Anderson, and NOT roll exclusively with all of Duane, Dawson, JJJ, Burton, Luke. Derrick, Juan and Carlino were not the future of the program.
Side note - bringing in Jayce Johnson. Was it really necessary? Theo John is a mess this year. Trying to divide playing time up between 3 guys now? Ed, Theo, Jayce? Morrow has massively regressed from who he was at Iowa.
P.S. Once Wojo takes us to Sweet 16, Sweet 16, Elite 8 three years in a row - then we can start to compare him to Buzz - until then, stop making yourself look foolish. The guy hasn't gotten done. Every year brings a new excuse as to why we don't win in March.
since you keep pushing this BS.
The class Buzz brought in was not good, players left, some never even got here but you keep pushing it. With that class, what did Buzz do with it? He crapped with it.
Buzz was able to recruit players that COULD NOT GRADUATE. Let me say that again...COULD NOT GRADUATE....would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to GRADUATE in the timelines required. Wojo is not afforded that "luxury"...NOR SHOULD HE BE.
Keep comparing those apples to oranges. Keep saying that Buzz's hyped up recruiting class was something other than the disaster it was.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 03, 2020, 10:48:11 AM
I think you are trying to be too linear - however since i am linear too, i will point out you actually identified four things.
1. I didn't make any comments about Wojo only the expectations for the program today...I think based on KenPom and other factors that they are worse than before and I think MU is OK with that. The KenPom results were post BE, not Buzz exclusively. Wojo did in fact miss my reset expectations for the program the first two years. I am not in charge of his performance review, but I would have likely taken it into account if I was.
2. Last year's team seems like the new peak for us. So they hit reset expectations overall -- could have exceeded if the season theoretically ended in Feb.
3. This season is not at 20...its 32. Being within the top 25 means 25 is the floor not the ceiling - so consistent deviation among the top-25 with some good years and some where we aren't quite there. Lately we seem more top 40...partying if we make the top-25 instead of regularly being within that group of teams.
4. Yes optimism is subjective. If you didn't feel like the teams that actually progressed to 2-S16's and an E8 had a chance to make some noise in the tourney, then I cant help you. I felt that the 3-amigo teams had a chance at a S16--unfortunately they fell short (painfully at the last second in some cases). I don't feel like we have had the talent to compete for the S16 in many years. It can happen of course because the tourney can produce crazy results, but I'm not expecting it and more importantly I think MU is OK with it. [EDIT: This isnt meant to be a knock on the players - strong coaching/systems can make up for not top-tier athletes...I dont feel like we have that to make up for the skill gap].
Thanks again for the answers. I was traveling when I wrote and realize now it came off disjointed. Sorry for my delay in responding but I've been out of contact since that post.
It seems expectations have moved quite a bit for you in the time since Wojo has been hired and mostly to the downside. And we won't know for another eight weeks if last season was an outlier or if there is a new sense of direction with the program. Competing for a title two years in a row would result in a discussion of whether Wojo is worth keeping.
Regarding rankings I now see your number in parentheses was the calendar year, not a current KenPom ranking. Chalk that mistake up to airport reading and responding. And you've also made clear that 25 is the floor which means you likely think they should consistently be around 20 so as not to get near their floor. And consistently being around low 30s means Wojo is failing expectations.
And your words on optimism reinforce my point about having it discussed in person. You attribute just making the second weekend as a "deep run". I do not. I could certainly see some of Buzz' teams winning a couple of games before the Tournament started but thinking they had the wherewithal to win that Sweet Sixteen game took a level of optimistic belief I didn't have for them after nearly losing 10 games in conference.
Quote from: Cheeks on January 03, 2020, 11:15:32 AM
since you keep pushing this BS.
The class Buzz brought in was not good, players left, some never even got here but you keep pushing it. With that class, what did Buzz do with it? He crapped with it.
Buzz was able to recruit players that COULD NOT GRADUATE. Let me say that again...COULD NOT GRADUATE....would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to GRADUATE in the timelines required. Wojo is not afforded that "luxury"...NOR SHOULD HE BE.
Keep comparing those apples to oranges. Keep saying that Buzz's hyped up recruiting class was something other than the disaster it was.
Kinda makes the case for giving Wojo a little more leeway. All things NOT being equal.
Quote from: Cheeks on January 03, 2020, 11:15:32 AM
since you keep pushing this BS.
The class Buzz brought in was not good, players left, some never even got here but you keep pushing it. With that class, what did Buzz do with it? He crapped with it.
Buzz was able to recruit players that COULD NOT GRADUATE. Let me say that again...COULD NOT GRADUATE....would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to GRADUATE in the timelines required. Wojo is not afforded that "luxury"...NOR SHOULD HE BE.
Keep comparing those apples to oranges. Keep saying that Buzz's hyped up recruiting class was something other than the disaster it was.
Yea. You're right. You BOLDING your point convinced me.
Yet all of Duane, Dawson, JJJ, Deonte, Luke could graduate. Or here, is this better: THEY ALL COULD GRADUATE.
Stop with the nonsense about Buzz's last year. He had no intention of investing into that class..he was out the door.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 06, 2020, 11:52:42 AM
Yea. You're right. You BOLDING your point convinced me.
Yet all of Duane, Dawson, JJJ, Deonte, Luke could graduate. Or here, is this better: THEY ALL COULD GRADUATE.
Stop with the nonsense about Buzz's last year. He had no intention of investing into that class..he was out the door.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Wilson have severe shin splints(hairline fractures). I also seem to recall that Luke had a bad shoulder that required surgery. I further recall Deonte being a head case and with good reason considering the unfortunate circumstances surrounding his family. Dawson? Who Dat? And JJJ =this years JC, athletic but unpolished.
Wojo scrambled to put together a recruiting class after Buzz left the cupboard bare. For a number of reasons it didn't work out. Some of which I mentioned. And yes Wojo was a first time head coach who made mistakes. Fast forward to last season and the team had 27 wins and a decent seed in the tournament. Yeah the end was disappointing but there were a few shining moments along the way.
This years team reminds me of last years in ways with Koby, Brendan, Jamal, and Greg replacing the Hausers, and Jayce replacing Matt, sacrificing some offense for some improved defense. Basically a wash. That's why there's every reason to be optimistic about the teams chances going forward. With the added depth of athletic players they should be able to absorb a few minor injuries and avoid late season fatigue, reducing the likelihood of another late season meltdown. Hopefully that gets us in the tournament as well as a couple wins.
And, in the event they do win one or two or more games at the big dance, you won't hear me giving Wojo the lions share of the credit, just like Buzz didn't deserve most of the credit for the Davidson win and subsequent run.
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 06, 2020, 01:01:06 PM
? And JJJ =this years JC, athletic but unpolished.
This year's JC? Are you saying JjJ was the equivalent of this year's Jamal Cain? What year JjJ are you comparing to this year's JC? Don't get me wrong. I've been high on Jamal since he got to MU and my posts from JC's freshman year back that up. But JjJ averaged 10.19 and 11.97 pts, 1.59 and 1.9 steals, 1.97 and 2.68 assists and 3.22 and 4.1 rebounds during his jr. and sr. years, respectively. He scored over 1,000 points at MU. Stats aren't the only thing to look at, but Jamal isn't quite at JjJ's level yet.
Quote from: Lighthouse 84 on January 06, 2020, 01:23:50 PM
This year's JC? Are you saying JjJ was the equivalent of this year's Jamal Cain? What year JjJ are you comparing to this year's JC? Don't get me wrong. I've been high on Jamal since he got to MU and my posts from JC's freshman year back that up. But JjJ averaged 10.19 and 11.97 pts, 1.59 and 1.9 steals, 1.97 and 2.68 assists and 3.22 and 4.1 rebounds during his jr. and sr. years, respectively. He scored over 1,000 points at MU. Stats aren't the only thing to look at, but Jamal isn't quite at JjJ's level yet.
At least it's not cringeworthy every time Jamal shoots. When JJJ did any outside shot I was ready to scream.
Quote from: Lighthouse 84 on January 06, 2020, 01:23:50 PM
This year's JC? Are you saying JjJ was the equivalent of this year's Jamal Cain? What year JjJ are you comparing to this year's JC? Don't get me wrong. I've been high on Jamal since he got to MU and my posts from JC's freshman year back that up. But JjJ averaged 10.19 and 11.97 pts, 1.59 and 1.9 steals, 1.97 and 2.68 assists and 3.22 and 4.1 rebounds during his jr. and sr. years, respectively. He scored over 1,000 points at MU. Stats aren't the only thing to look at, but Jamal isn't quite at JjJ's level yet.
I was referring to his freshman and sophomore seasons specifically but he never really stood out to me and like another poster mentioned, his outside shot gave me an anxiety attack every time he pulled up for one.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 06, 2020, 01:27:10 PM
At least it's not cringeworthy every time Jamal shoots. When JJJ did any outside shot I was ready to scream.
JJJ shot 38% on 3s as an upperclassman. He developed into a good shooter.
Quote from: BM1090 on January 06, 2020, 01:59:31 PM
JJJ shot 38% on 3s as an upperclassman. He developed into a good shooter.
I do not recall that his Junior year. I recall he was respectable senior year
Quote from: WhoaJoe2020 on January 06, 2020, 01:01:06 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Wilson have severe shin splints(hairline fractures). I also seem to recall that Luke had a bad shoulder that required surgery. I further recall Deonte being a head case and with good reason considering the unfortunate circumstances surrounding his family. Dawson? Who Dat? And JJJ =this years JC, athletic but unpolished.
Wojo scrambled to put together a recruiting class after Buzz left the cupboard bare. For a number of reasons it didn't work out. Some of which I mentioned. And yes Wojo was a first time head coach who made mistakes. Fast forward to last season and the team had 27 wins and a decent seed in the tournament. Yeah the end was disappointing but there were a few shining moments along the way.
This years team reminds me of last years in ways with Koby, Brendan, Jamal, and Greg replacing the Hausers, and Jayce replacing Matt, sacrificing some offense for some improved defense. Basically a wash. That's why there's every reason to be optimistic about the teams chances going forward. With the added depth of athletic players they should be able to absorb a few minor injuries and avoid late season fatigue, reducing the likelihood of another late season meltdown. Hopefully that gets us in the tournament as well as a couple wins.
And, in the event they do win one or two or more games at the big dance, you won't hear me giving Wojo the lions share of the credit, just like Buzz didn't deserve most of the credit for the Davidson win and subsequent run.
you are way off by calling the guys you mentioned replacing the Hausers a wash
Non of them is near as good as Sam and maybe one or 2 approach the potential of Joe. And none replaced them as they were all here in the system. Hardly a wash.
Quote from: BM1090 on January 06, 2020, 01:59:31 PM
JJJ shot 38% on 3s as an upperclassman. He developed into a good shooter.
Exactly. His form was completely remade and he developed into a much better shooter. Again, I've been on JC since he got to MU. But to call JjJ an unpolished Jamal Cain is neither accurate nor fair to JjJ.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 06, 2020, 02:26:39 PM
you are way off by calling the guys you mentioned replacing the Hausers a wash
Non of them is near as good as Sam and maybe one or 2 approach the potential of Joe. And none replaced them as they were all here in the system. Hardly a wash.
I'll stand by my comment.
I conceded that the team lost some offense but I will not concede that the defense isn't better.
So yeah basically a wash.
The main difference is the current lack of chemistry on offense. Of course Sam and Joey had the advantage there but I saw glimpses of it in the Nova game. Once Koby, Brendan, and Sacar get more comfortable with their roles and understand when to exert themselves offensively on a consistent basis things should click. Then they can show the way to Greg, Jamal, and Symir. At that point, maybe Markus can let the game come to him a little more.
Quote from: Lighthouse 84 on January 06, 2020, 02:34:30 PM
Exactly. His form was completely remade and he developed into a much better shooter. Again, I've been on JC since he got to MU. But to call JjJ an unpolished Jamal Cain is neither accurate nor fair to JjJ.
Ummm .... You do realize he averaged less than one 3pt fg per game over his final two seasons on about 2.35 attempts per game. He also had far more usage on a team with fewer options offensively. Again I'm not trying to trash the guy I'm just saying he was in Jamal's league.