https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/more-sports/the-rise-of-the-snowplow-sports-parents/ar-AAD7qKE?li=BBnba9I
Coaches assigning assistants to manage parents. Parents continuing to hire private coaches behind professional coaches backs. Parents wanting to be 'recruited.' Parents who tell their kids to put their names in the transfer portal without talking to the coach.
Quote from: tower912 on June 26, 2019, 06:14:19 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/more-sports/the-rise-of-the-snowplow-sports-parents/ar-AAD7qKE?li=BBnba9I
Coaches assigning assistants to manage parents. Parents continuing to hire private coaches behind professional coaches backs. Parents wanting to be 'recruited.' Parents who tell their kids to put their names in the transfer portal without talking to the coach.
We have a friend who is a D1 volleyball coach. Several years ago they had a freshman show up very out of shape -- unmistakably different than when she was recruited. She wasn't working hard in pre-season practices and acted entitled. Not surprisingly, she wasn't getting playing time. A couple weeks into the season, she asked the coach for a meeting later one afternoon. When the coach arrived for the meeting, the player had both of her parents there (from 1500 miles away). They totally ambushed the coach. The parents (speaking for their daughter, naturally) told him that she was unhappy with the playing-time situation and was likely going to transfer at the end of they year. Without missing a beat, the coach told them, "well, of course we'll honor the scholarship [edited: for the remainder of the year], but she'll have no further involvement with the team from this point forward." They were flabbergasted. The coach told me that it was pretty clear that they were hoping to pressure them for more playing time and involvement. The coach was having none of it; told them that they weren't going to waste any more time, effort or money on someone who was leaving the team. Obviously not the result those snow plow parents were looking for.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on June 26, 2019, 07:08:01 AM
We have a friend who is a D1 volleyball coach. Several years ago they had a freshman show up very out of shape -- unmistakably different than when she was recruited. She wasn't working hard in pre-season practices and acted entitled. Not surprisingly, she wasn't getting playing time. A couple weeks into the season, she asked the coach for a meeting later one afternoon. When the coach arrived for the meeting, the player had both of her parents there (from 1500 miles away). They totally ambushed the coach. The parents (speaking for their daughter, naturally) told him that she was unhappy with the playing-time situation and was likely going to transfer at the end of they year. Without missing a beat, the coach told them, "well, of course we'll honor the scholarship, but she'll have no further involvement with the team from this point forward." They were flabbergasted. The coach told me that it was pretty clear that they were hoping to pressure them for more playing time and involvement. The coach was having none of it; told them that they weren't going to waste any more time, effort or money on someone who was leaving the team. Obviously not the result those snow plow parents were looking for.
This is an example where the scholarship should not be honored in my opinion. Slippery slope for sure, but if the student athlete is not doing the work for which they received the scholarship she is frauding the university.
Quote from: tower912 on June 26, 2019, 06:14:19 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/more-sports/the-rise-of-the-snowplow-sports-parents/ar-AAD7qKE?li=BBnba9I
Coaches assigning assistants to manage parents. Parents continuing to hire private coaches behind professional coaches backs. Parents wanting to be 'recruited.' Parents who tell their kids to put their names in the transfer portal without talking to the coach.
We just finished shooting our NFL spots yesterday along with last week. Fortunately the guys do deals with don't run into this situation, but it is definitely growing and the agents will tell you it is a daunting.
Quote from: tower912 on June 26, 2019, 06:14:19 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/more-sports/the-rise-of-the-snowplow-sports-parents/ar-AAD7qKE?li=BBnba9I
Coaches assigning assistants to manage parents. Parents continuing to hire private coaches behind professional coaches backs. Parents wanting to be 'recruited.' Parents who tell their kids to put their names in the transfer portal without talking to the coach.
This sounds like the ultimate "living vicariously through the child" situation
Quote from: Cheeks on June 26, 2019, 08:26:53 AM
This is an example where the scholarship should not be honored in my opinion. Slippery slope for sure, but if the student athlete is not doing the work for which they received the scholarship she is frauding the university.
I understand what you're saying, but I think there are all sorts of problems if coaches are allowed to pull scholarships from kids mid-year unless there are truly extraordinary circumstances. I don't think that applied here. I'm much more comfortable letting the kid finish his/her year in school and then parting ways.
Also, I should clarify: the coach made it clear that the university would honor the scholarship for
the remainder of that academic year. After that, she was done.
No college athlete's scholarship should ever be dependent on his or her athletic performance. Full stop.
Quote from: MUBurrow on June 26, 2019, 02:55:21 PM
No college athlete's scholarship should ever be dependent on his or her athletic performance. Full stop.
If a kid is told to do certain work in the Summer, comes in massively overweight, etc, they have not kept up their end of the bargain.
I recognize the slippery slope. I'm talking about the effort piece here, not how well they do in games.
You can't have someone earning a scholarship and then they end up not earning it because they don't do what is required...in my opinion.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on June 26, 2019, 08:47:15 AM
I understand what you're saying, but I think there are all sorts of problems if coaches are allowed to pull scholarships from kids mid-year unless there are truly extraordinary circumstances. I don't think that applied here. I'm much more comfortable letting the kid finish his/her year in school and then parting ways.
Also, I should clarify: the coach made it clear that the university would honor the scholarship for the remainder of that academic year. After that, she was done.
The NCAA has very strict guidelines for pulling scholarships mid-year. It can only be done if the kid relinquishes it voluntarily, becomes ineligible, violates any nonathletic terms of the financial aid agreement or violation of institutional policy, or is subject to discipline by the university's regular disciplinary authority for serious misconduct. The appeals process is very much stacked against the university and in favor of the student-athlete when it comes to cancellations.
And, if they are successful they cannot reaward it that year.
Had never heard the term "snowplow parents." I like it!
Quote from: StillAWarrior on June 26, 2019, 07:08:01 AM
We have a friend who is a D1 volleyball coach. Several years ago they had a freshman show up very out of shape -- unmistakably different than when she was recruited. She wasn't working hard in pre-season practices and acted entitled. Not surprisingly, she wasn't getting playing time. A couple weeks into the season, she asked the coach for a meeting later one afternoon. When the coach arrived for the meeting, the player had both of her parents there (from 1500 miles away). They totally ambushed the coach. The parents (speaking for their daughter, naturally) told him that she was unhappy with the playing-time situation and was likely going to transfer at the end of they year. Without missing a beat, the coach told them, "well, of course we'll honor the scholarship [edited: for the remainder of the year], but she'll have no further involvement with the team from this point forward." They were flabbergasted. The coach told me that it was pretty clear that they were hoping to pressure them for more playing time and involvement. The coach was having none of it; told them that they weren't going to waste any more time, effort or money on someone who was leaving the team. Obviously not the result those snow plow parents were looking for.
Obviously, the school shouldn't pull that scholarship based on the info you provided. Sounds to me like the coach handled it perfectly.
Quote from: MUBurrow on June 26, 2019, 02:55:21 PM
No college athlete's scholarship should ever be dependent on his or her athletic performance. Full stop.
Not even Aunt Becky's kids?
Quote from: Cheeks on June 26, 2019, 03:30:47 PM
If a kid is told to do certain work in the Summer, comes in massively overweight, etc, they have not kept up their end of the bargain.
I recognize the slippery slope. I'm talking about the effort piece here, not how well they do in games.
You can't have someone earning a scholarship and then they end up not earning it because they don't do what is required...in my opinion.
You say you understand the slippery slope but I don't think you do. This would open a huge Pandora's box and coaches would routinely take advantage. Not a good idea.
I was involved with a student athlete who played Division 3 football.
He played 3 years, is a STEM Mc Nair Scollar and when he left the team it did not impact his grant.
I am very impressed with Division 3 sports. 60% of the students at his university play intercollegiate sports.
In my day we had 3 Division 1 sports at M.U. and it worked out fine, and BTW it saved a ton of money. Too many Division 1 sports are great for the airlines but hurt education.
Quote from: vogue65 on June 26, 2019, 07:52:43 PM
I was involved with a student athlete who played Division 3 football.
He played 3 years, is a STEM Mc Nair Scollar and when he left the team it did not impact his grant.
I am very impressed with Division 3 sports. 60% of the students at his university play intercollegiate sports.
In my day we had 3 Division 1 sports at M.U. and it worked out fine, and BTW it saved a ton of money. Too many Division 1 sports are great for the airlines but hurt education.
Not sure how D3 sports are relevant here. All D3 athletes are essentially preferred walkons. And if he's getting grant money as a scholar, then he's certainly not getting a leadership grant or something of the like just based on being an athlete.
As for the last point... ::)
Quote from: JWags85 on June 27, 2019, 11:15:21 AM
Not sure how D3 sports are relevant here. All D3 athletes are essentially preferred walkons. And if he's getting grant money as a scholar, then he's certainly not getting a leadership grant or something of the like just based on being an athlete.
As for the last point... ::)
considering D3 has a strict zero-tolerance policy on the use of athletic ability in any measure in awarding aid (check out the violation report for Kalamazoo College) this guy's point about some grant is meaningless.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 26, 2019, 06:09:10 PM
You say you understand the slippery slope but I don't think you do. This would open a huge Pandora's box and coaches would routinely take advantage. Not a good idea.
Believe me I do, which is why I brought it up in the first place. I definitely recognize the risk. It likely is a pandora's Box, and not an easy matter. I'd love to hear solutions for someone that earns a scholarship and decides to tank it while occupying a spot that some other deserving kid could have had.
This is NOT an easy matter.
At one point, you want your children to grow up and take responsibility for themselves. To be able to handle difficult situations with coaches. To be able to accept sometimes that you're not as good as you think you are and you have to work to be the best.
Students need to learn to accept, advocate and be aware. That's part of what college is about.
But for elite level college athletes, the deck is stacked so high against them, it's ridiculous. Universities have lawyers, accountants, business executives, coaches and others to advise every step of the way. The rules and regulations of the NCAA (a college athletics trade organization) are grotesquely stacked in favor of the university, so much so that a scholarship could be revoked after a single year. The tilt is so much against an athlete than even hiring a representative is against the "rules." As is trying to negotiate the contract to even it out somewhat.
And of course, paying the athlete is verboten!
I don't particularly care for Snowplow Parents. The Hausers, the Ellensons and Tim Maymon come to mind immediately. There's a lot of things they do that's detrimental to a team and, candidly, to their children.
But, with the NCAA rules the way they are today, who can blame them?
Quote from: dgies9156 on June 30, 2019, 11:42:57 AM
This is NOT an easy matter.
At one point, you want your children to grow up and take responsibility for themselves. To be able to handle difficult situations with coaches. To be able to accept sometimes that you're not as good as you think you are and you have to work to be the best.
Students need to learn to accept, advocate and be aware. That's part of what college is about.
But for elite level college athletes, the deck is stacked so high against them, it's ridiculous. Universities have lawyers, accountants, business executives, coaches and others to advise every step of the way. The rules and regulations of the NCAA (a college athletics trade organization) are grotesquely stacked in favor of the university, so much so that a scholarship could be revoked after a single year. The tilt is so much against an athlete than even hiring a representative is against the "rules." As is trying to negotiate the contract to even it out somewhat.
And of course, paying the athlete is verboten!
I don't particularly care for Snowplow Parents. The Hausers, the Ellensons and Tim Maymon come to mind immediately. There's a lot of things they do that's detrimental to a team and, candidly, to their children.
But, with the NCAA rules the way they are today, who can blame them?
Yeah, that's rational.
Athletics in general, from youth on up, tend to be strongly slanted in the favor of kids with hyper-involved parents. Being hyper-involved doesn't change a damn thing about the innate abilities, which is what actually matters, but it does a whole lot to change the perceptions of coaches/recruiters/etc. It gives their kid a leg up at every step along the way, so it's not all too surprising to see it continue into their college years.
Quote from: Pakuni on June 26, 2019, 04:35:06 PM
Not even Aunt Becky's kids?
Eh, that was more of a "fraud in the inducement" thing, right? IIRC, Aunt Becky's kid had never previously played the sport for which she received a schollie. Where the kid is in on that level of misrepresentation, its a different situation vs where the kid starts to lose passion and focus for the sport while they're in school.
Quote from: MUBurrow on June 30, 2019, 01:21:12 PM
Eh, that was more of a "fraud in the inducement" thing, right? IIRC, Aunt Becky's kid had never previously played the sport for which she received a schollie. Where the kid is in on that level of misrepresentation, its a different situation vs where the kid starts to lose passion and focus for the sport while they're in school.
Haven't seen goalposts move like that since Chico's had the politics board in full swing.
Pakuni pwnd you. Full stop.
Quote from: tower912 on June 26, 2019, 06:14:19 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/more-sports/the-rise-of-the-snowplow-sports-parents/ar-AAD7qKE?li=BBnba9I
Coaches assigning assistants to manage parents. Parents continuing to hire private coaches behind professional coaches backs. Parents wanting to be 'recruited.' Parents who tell their kids to put their names in the transfer portal without talking to the coach.
excellent story on this very topic in the june 17 sports illustrated
Quote from: Benny B on June 30, 2019, 08:18:34 PM
Haven't seen goalposts move like that since Chico's had the politics board in full swing.
Pakuni pwnd you. Full stop.
Now now, don't give me all the credit as there is a whole cadre of fine, well spoken people here that contributed daily to that board where goal posts were moved constantly.
Quote from: Cheeks on June 27, 2019, 06:46:33 PM
Believe me I do, which is why I brought it up in the first place. I definitely recognize the risk. It likely is a pandora's Box, and not an easy matter. I'd love to hear solutions for someone that earns a scholarship and decides to tank it while occupying a spot that some other deserving kid could have had.
You pull the scholly at the end of the year, just like it happens now. You can't always adjust everything in real-time. It is the best solution available.
No solution is going to be perfect. You put a solution in place that addresses the majority of the situations...80/20 rule. Far more coaches would take advantage of a situation where they could pull scholarships mid-year, than there are students who currently tank it in the current set-up.
Quote from: Benny B on June 30, 2019, 08:18:34 PM
Haven't seen goalposts move like that since Chico's had the politics board in full swing.
Pakuni pwnd you. Full stop.
Sure, maybe. If saying full stop precludes me from differentiating between a unique fraud where the student and coaches and third parties combine to defraud the university and the kid never actually played the sport vs coaches who feel they got a raw deal because the kid sucked or stopped caring, consider me pwned. Pakuni can redeem his pwn credit for one free beef and cheddar.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on July 01, 2019, 05:43:03 AM
excellent story on this very topic in the june 17 sports illustrated
I think it is the same story.
Quote from: Coleman on July 01, 2019, 12:45:41 PM
You pull the scholly at the end of the year, just like it happens now. You can't always adjust everything in real-time. It is the best solution available.
No solution is going to be perfect. You put a solution in place that addresses the majority of the situations...80/20 rule. Far more coaches would take advantage of a situation where they could pull scholarships mid-year, than there are students who currently tank it in the current set-up.
the problem with that A) in Power 5 conferences scholarships are guaranteed for four years and as long as you're doing the bare minimum (showing up on time, staying out of trouble, staying eligible) the school has to honor the scholarship. Even at a non-Power 5 school like MU, if a parent asks for a 4-year scholarship MU can give that and will if that's the difference between choosing MU over a Power 5 school like Madison.
And unlike the fantasy the dude above laid out in his word salad, there are not lawyers that work to screw student-athletes over to take their scholarships. The process is stacked heavily in favor of the student-athlete, basically a "beyond a reasonable doubt" situation. Sure, a coach can say "you're not going to play" but if the kid wants to remain at the school the will as long as they have done what they're supposed to do. The "we expected 10 ppg and only got 4" doesn't work and is a violation of the bylaws prohibiting cancellation for athletic reasons.
nm
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on July 01, 2019, 03:49:40 PM
the problem with that A) in Power 5 conferences scholarships are guaranteed for four years and as long as you're doing the bare minimum (showing up on time, staying out of trouble, staying eligible) the school has to honor the scholarship. Even at a non-Power 5 school like MU, if a parent asks for a 4-year scholarship MU can give that and will if that's the difference between choosing MU over a Power 5 school like Madison.
And unlike the fantasy the dude above laid out in his word salad, there are not lawyers that work to screw student-athletes over to take their scholarships. The process is stacked heavily in favor of the student-athlete, basically a "beyond a reasonable doubt" situation. Sure, a coach can say "you're not going to play" but if the kid wants to remain at the school the will as long as they have done what they're supposed to do. The "we expected 10 ppg and only got 4" doesn't work and is a violation of the bylaws prohibiting cancellation for athletic reasons.
Well, OK, as the author of the "word salad" let me lay out a few points.
1) I never said NCAA Member Institutions will pull a scholarship. I said they could and I stand by that. There are reputable schools, like our's, who live by their word to people, and there are schools that don't.
2) Contracts and agreements are not for the predictable. They are for the unexpected and unanticipated. They are designed to protect interests. Given the fact that the NCAA member institution drafted the agreement -- probably word for word from a model provided by the NCAA -- whose interests do you think they are protecting? If you believe the NCAA member institution is an altruistic entity that solely is interested in the welfare and well-being of the student athlete for the student athlete's sake, I got a bridge between Marin County and San Francisco I can sell you very inexpensively!
3) At the core of things, the athlete deserves the same support structure as is available for the Member Institution. He or she doesn't have it and can't retain it without losing eligibility. Where's the fairness in that? What are the member institutions afraid of? Someone will put the screws to them? You betcha!
4) Given this, I stand by my original contention. While I don't have much time for Messrs. Maymon, Ellenson or Hauser, I understand why they do what they do. Parents are the only ones who will stand up for their children/athletes/students. Of course the NCAA is going to scream about it! Someone is leveling the playing field!
Quote from: Cheeks on June 26, 2019, 08:26:53 AM
This is an example where the scholarship should not be honored in my opinion. Slippery slope for sure, but if the student athlete is not doing the work for which they received the scholarship she is frauding the university.
"Frauding" 😂😂
Quote from: warriorchick on July 02, 2019, 07:13:05 AM
The irony... it burns...
Well, I suppose one has to be wormed before they can be dewormed.
Quote from: Cheeks on July 01, 2019, 09:00:27 AM
Now now, don't give me all the credit as there is a whole cadre of fine, well spoken people here that contributed daily to that board where goal posts were moved constantly.
15 years to judge
Quote from: warriorchick on July 02, 2019, 07:13:05 AM
The irony... it burns...
Is he claiming frauding isn't a word, or that he believes defrauding would have been better? Frauding is a word and defrauding I believe is a criminal act....but it's been a long time since my CRIM classes at MU....not sure what he is challenging here. He still has t libel with business owner if I recall. LOL.
Quote from: Cheeks on July 14, 2019, 04:58:30 PM
Is he claiming frauding isn't a word, or that he believes defrauding would have been better? Frauding is a word and defrauding I believe is a criminal act....but it's been a long time since my CRIM classes at MU....not sure what he is challenging here. He still has t libel with business owner if I recall. LOL.
I am not sure what point he was trying to make. I just find it hilarious that a guy who thinks it is too much trouble to spell out the word "you" is correcting other people's alleged grammar mistakes.
Quote from: warriorchick on July 14, 2019, 06:22:31 PM
I am not sure what point he was trying to make. I just find it hilarious that a guy who thinks it is too much trouble to spell out the word "you" is correcting other people's alleged grammar mistakes.
Ahh, thanks.