MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: duanewade on June 22, 2019, 05:44:37 PM
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In spite of how dumb our fan-base and university leadership is.
I love how many of the board bullies/boobs are down on UConn re-joining the Big East if this is somehow a bad thing. Somehow getting a school with 4 men's basketball championships in the last 30 years while being located in the heart of our geographic footprint is pause for concern. :o
Yet getting smoke-in-mirrors Gonzaga, which is located in ho-bunk Washington and plays in a gym the size of my high school, is really the desired get. ::) Gonzaga has to stack their non-conference every year with at least 7 good teams so the rest of the nation doesn't fall completely asleep on them before they get an undeserved seed and quickly exit from the NCAA tournament in most years. In spite of this they are an "exciting" program with sustainable appeal regardless if they never won a championship, have a small fan base, a poor geographical location for recruiting and present horrible travel logistics for all other sports and members in the Big East.
While were on roll hurting the AAC lets also get Memphis to park football elsewhere and join the Big East to round out our number to 12. Then wait and see if Boston College eventually drops football due to their small stadium and tepid football fan-base. Maybe ND wants to park all their sports in the Big East again too if the ACC pushes them too much on the revenue sharing front. Perhaps then we can be part of a conference with lots of top 50 recruits again as Penny Hardaway has been tearing it up on the recruiting front. Meanwhile as the attached link below illustrates the Big East is sucking wind on the 2020 top 50-100 recruiting front as every "Big" East team stunk in both postseason tournaments last year. Well actually Marquette has the best shot of having a good class within the conference and is mentioned with the most top players but at the end of the day we'll finish 2nd or 3rd with the ones we really want and end up with a couple top 75 to 100 players. Of course if past history is any indication of the future then one of them will transfer after one year any ways.
All this talk about staying with other "catholic" basketball schools is laughable. If anyone has been around DePaul's current student body lately they might think they took a wrong turn and ended up in the United Nations. One of my friend's took his daughter for a campus tour at DePaul and not once during the tour did they even mention they are a catholic school. They have distanced themselves from their catholic roots as getting a large paying student body is tantamount. In fact DePaul now has such a large Palestinian faction of students that they have regular anti-Israel meetings in the student union that I witness as I cut through there on cold winter days on the way to their gym.
So the bottom line is basketball clout, geography and money is what will drive the future membership of the Big East. Duke used to pretend like academics ruled their world too but when all the McDonald's All Americans started going to college for just one year they adapted and have become a one and done haven no different than Kentucky which has no academic reputation to protect. Because of this we have just as much in common with Memphis as we do with our current Big East members and that being great basketball which generates lots of free publicity and money to help keep the lights on at each member university.
Marquette has a lot to sell with amazing facilities including the nation's premier luxury home arena that draws even 17,000 fans when playing a mid-major like Buffalo. With $25MM in annual basketball revenues we can pay great salaries to draw top assistants and head coaches and recruits alike. However the enablers have allowed an incompetent Wojo to linger around with non-stop excuses for the program's lack of progress. So that will no doubt hurt our ability to have a great recruiting class this year that we normally should be able to get as top recruits don't want to have the Henry Ellenson or Romeo Langford effect of having their stock drop by being associated with a poorly coached team for their one year in college.
A smart program, which MU is not, would have moved on from Wojo this off-season and got a hot mid-major coach or given Stan Johnson a three year contract to see if he could bring fresh life into the program. Instead MU double downed on stupid and will continue to pay the price for this. Hopefully Wojo pulls a Buzz and leaves by his own volition within the next two years to save the program any more hardship.
https://247sports.com/Season/2020-Basketball/CompositeRecruitRankings/?InstitutionGroup=HighSchool
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I love how many of the board bullies/boobs are down on UConn re-joining the Big East if this is somehow a bad thing. Somehow getting a school with 4 men's basketball championships in the last 30 years while being located in the heart of our geographic footprint is pause for concern. :o
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=58839.msg1140091;topicseen#new
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In spite of how dumb our fan-base and university leadership is.
I love how many of the board bullies/boobs are down on UConn re-joining the Big East if this is somehow a bad thing. Somehow getting a school with 4 men's basketball championships in the last 30 years while being located in the heart of our geographic footprint is pause for concern. :o
Yet getting smoke-in-mirrors Gonzaga, which is located in ho-bunk Washington and plays in a gym the size of my high school, is really the desired get. ::) Gonzaga has to stack their non-conference every year with at least 7 good teams so the rest of the nation doesn't fall completely asleep on them before they get an undeserved seed and quickly exit from the NCAA tournament on most years. In spite of this they are an "exciting" program with sustainable appeal regardless if they never won a championship, have a small fan base, a poor geographical location for recruiting and present horrible travel logistics for all other sports and members in the Big East.
While were on roll hurting the AAC lets also get Memphis to park football elsewhere and join the Big East also to round out our number to 12. Then wait and see if Boston College eventually drops football due to their small stadium and tepid football fan-base. Maybe ND wants to park all their sports in the Big East again too if the ACC pushes them too much on the revenue sharing front. Perhaps then we can be part of a conference with lots of top 50 recruits again as Penny Hardaway has been tearing it up on the recruiting front. Meanwhile as the attached link below illustrates the Big East is sucking wind on the 2020 top 50-100 recruiting front as every "Big" East team stunk in both postseason tournaments last year. Well actually Marquette has the best shot of having a good class within the conference and is mentioned with the most top players but at the end of the day we'll finish 2nd or 3rd with the ones we really wanted and end up with a couple top 75 to 100 players. Of course if past history is any indication of the future then one of them will transfer after one year any ways.
All this talk about staying with other "catholic" basketball schools is laughable. If anyone has been around DePaul's current student body lately they might think they took a wrong turn and ended up in the United Nations. One of my friend's took his daughter for a campus tour at DePaul and not once during the tour did they even mention they are a catholic school. They have distanced themselves from their catholic roots as getting a large paying student body is tantamount. In fact DePaul now has such a large Palestinian faction of students that they have regular anti-Israel meetings in the student union that I witness as I cut through there on cold winter days on the way to their gym.
So the bottom line is basketball clout, geography and money is what will drive the future membership of the Big East. Duke used to pretend like academics ruled their world too but when all the McDonald's All Americans started to going to college for just one year they adapted and have become a one and done haven no different than Kentucky which has no academic reputation to protect. Because of this we have just as much in common with Memphis as we do with our current Big East members and that being great basketball which generates lots of free publicity and money to help keep the lights on at each member university.
Marquette has a lot to sell with amazing facilities including the nation's premier luxury home arena that draws even 17,000 fans when playing a mid-major like Buffalo. With $25MM in annual basketball revenues we can pay great salaries to draw top assistants and head coaches and recruits alike. However the enablers have allowed an incompetent Wojo to linger around with non-stop excuses for the program's lack of progress. So that will no doubt hurt our ability to have a great recruiting class this year that we normally should be able to get as top recruits don't want to have the Henry Ellenson or Romeo Langford effect of having their stock drop by being associated with a poorly coached team for their one year in college.
A smart program, which MU is not, would have moved on from Wojo this off-season and got a hot mid-major coach or given Stan Johnson a three year contract to see if he could bring fresh life into the program. Instead MU double downed on stupid and will continue to pay the price for this. Hopefully Wojo pulls a Buzz and leaves by his own volition within the next two years to save the program any more hardship.
https://247sports.com/Season/2020-Basketball/CompositeRecruitRankings/?InstitutionGroup=HighSchool
Thanks for taking the time to put these solid thoughts together in one post. As always , appreciate your views on the key issues as they related to Marquette Basketball.
I would give Xavier some credit for picking up Dwon Odom though . His stock is rising rapidly and he just did very well at the NBPA top 100 camp
https://247sports.com/college/basketball/recruiting/Article/Xavier-commitment-Dwon-Odom-North-Carolina-pledge-DayRon-Sharpe-and-five-star-Dawson-Garcia-shined-on-day-two-at-the-NBA-Top-100-Camp-132856829/
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I didn’t make boob status on this one....which I am happy for.....except could not agree with you less on the Wojo part or Memphis.
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Thanks for taking the time to put these solid thoughts together in one post. As always , appreciate your views on the key issues as they related to Marquette Basketball.
I would give Xavier some credit for picking up Dwon Odom though . His stock is rising rapidly and he just did very well at the NBPA top 100 camp
https://247sports.com/college/basketball/recruiting/Article/Xavier-commitment-Dwon-Odom-North-Carolina-pledge-DayRon-Sharpe-and-five-star-Dawson-Garcia-shined-on-day-two-at-the-NBA-Top-100-Camp-132856829/
Yup, he’s got trolling down to an art
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Thanks for taking the time to put these solid thoughts together in one post. As always , appreciate your views on the key issues as they related to Marquette Basketball.
I would give Xavier some credit for picking up Dwon Odom though . His stock is rising rapidly and he just did very well at the NBPA top 100 camp
https://247sports.com/college/basketball/recruiting/Article/Xavier-commitment-Dwon-Odom-North-Carolina-pledge-DayRon-Sharpe-and-five-star-Dawson-Garcia-shined-on-day-two-at-the-NBA-Top-100-Camp-132856829/
No offence but you sound like a robot sometimes herman:p
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I’m amazed that anyone really thinks basketball success has any connection to the intelligence level of the fan base.
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Thanks for taking the time to put these solid thoughts together in one post. As always , appreciate your views on the key issues as they related to Marquette Basketball.
I would give Xavier some credit for picking up Dwon Odom though . His stock is rising rapidly and he just did very well at the NBPA top 100 camp
https://247sports.com/college/basketball/recruiting/Article/Xavier-commitment-Dwon-Odom-North-Carolina-pledge-DayRon-Sharpe-and-five-star-Dawson-Garcia-shined-on-day-two-at-the-NBA-Top-100-Camp-132856829/
Great minds think alike Mr. Cain....unfortunately we’re in short supply in the MU basketball community.
Xavier’s new coach is a good recruiter and does the best he can with the limitations Xavier has. Hopefully the other programs start to recruit better as well. However Patrick Ewing is a solid game coach but doesn’t light up kids eyes on the recruiting front like they hoped he could. Most the kids he recruits don’t even remember him playing in the NBA. So right now Villanova and Marquette are the only two potential recruiting powers in the conference. UConn could be the third.
Georgetown, Providence, Seton Hall and Xavier will get some kids here and there but none of them will be top 50.
St John’s made a smart hire and will get some local kids that are between 75 to 200 who are still very good players and could move up and land better talent with success on the court.
DePaul somehow has started to recruit well but we’ll see if it translates on the court.
Butler and Creighton will continue to be Hoosier type programs that don’t dazzle you with athletic ability but try to spread you out and beat you with five guys who can all shoot from three.
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You didn’t think a new arena for DePaul was going to benefit them? Of course they are going to pick up recruiting.
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You didn’t think a new arena for DePaul was going to benefit them? Of course they are going to pick up recruiting.
Maybe but when you consider it's still DePaul, regardless of where the play, and their history of finishing last in the BE.
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There's a secret sauce to being an elite college basketball program.
1) Start with a name that has some national recognition from the past (i.e., Indiana Georgetown, Us, UCLA etc.)
2) Recruit a big-time name athlete and let him be the face of the program for two years.
3) Begin to win and reach the NCAA tournament.
4) Leverage your first NCAA tournament appearance into better recruits, more four-star and eventual Burger Boys.
5) Go deep in the NCAA two years or more.
6) Sign your coach to a long-term contract and shower him with so much love and affection he never leaves.
7) Maintain a regular presence in the NCAA Sweet 16 or better.
We got the first three down with Wojo. Got part of the way down item 4 and skipped over 5 to 6. We're waiting for 5 and 7.
Until we get to 7, we're not elite. We have a great program, great arena, wonderful fans and a mediocre record for the past six years.
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Oh boy wade. You are about to get a horsewhipping from the Wojo excuse makers for your classless and mean critique of Wojo.
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Oh boy wade. You are about to get a horsewhipping from the Wojo excuse makers for your classless and mean critique of Wojo.
Nope. 95% of this board has me on ignore as they prefer to hide from reality with their head in the sand. So my posts are only read by 50 or so users and only Herman admits he likes them.
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Nope. 95% of this board has me on ignore as they prefer to hide from reality with their head in the sand. So my posts are only read by 50 or so users and only Herman admits he likes them.
Because your posts are idiotic and you just hid for months till you post your next inaccurate absurdly long rant.
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Call me a Wojo apologist or maybe someone who looks a little deeper and am much more patient than most posters.
Hasn't MU been to 3 straight post-seasons and 2 of the those NCAA berths? This year they are predicted to be a potential top 25 team after losing 2 unexpected transfers? Compare Marquette to what Smart, Martin and Howland have done and those were the other finalists back when Wojo got the job.
Sorry, but when I see schools hanging on to guys who might be breaking NCAA rules and who haven't done a hell of a lot better than Wojo has done, if they have been better, I'm not going to call for someone's head.
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Nope. 95% of this board has me on ignore as they prefer to hide from reality with their head in the sand. So my posts are only read by 50 or so users and only Herman admits he likes them.[\b]
This shows how excellent and credible your posts are.
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There's a secret sauce to being an elite college basketball program.
1) Start with a name that has some national recognition from the past (i.e., Indiana Georgetown, Us, UCLA etc.)
2) Recruit a big-time name athlete and let him be the face of the program for two years.
3) Begin to win and reach the NCAA tournament.
4) Leverage your first NCAA tournament appearance into better recruits, more four-star and eventual Burger Boys.
5) Go deep in the NCAA two years or more.
6) Sign your coach to a long-term contract and shower him with so much love and affection he never leaves.
7) Maintain a regular presence in the NCAA Sweet 16 or better.
We got the first three down with Wojo. Got part of the way down item 4 and skipped over 5 to 6. We're waiting for 5 and 7.
Until we get to 7, we're not elite. We have a great program, great arena, wonderful fans and a mediocre record for the past six years.
Right now MU is performing at a level that would be acceptable at Creighton.
In fact, if the post Doug McDermott record of Creighton is compared to ours it is pretty similar. A couple of tournament bids, some NIT. The one good team they had was stymied when Maurice Watson Jr tore ACL , prior to that injury, they were ranking in top 10 and looking very good.
The only difference in the programs now is that MU plays in actual NBA arena , they play in one the same size and fill it.
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Right now MU is performing at a level that would be acceptable at Creighton.
In fact, if the post Doug McDermott record of Creighton is compared to ours it is pretty similar. A couple of tournament bids, some NIT. The one good team they had was stymied when Maurice Watson Jr tore ACL , prior to that injury, they were ranking in top 10 and looking very good.
The only difference in the programs now is that MU plays in actual NBA arena , they play in one the same size and fill it.
Omaha has no NBA team to compete with, no MLB team or NFL team....Marquette has to deal with all of those.
Maurice Watson also had legal issues and pled no contest for assaulting a woman after having sexual assault charges dropped.
Creighton has had stability with coaching, yet so many here cannot wait to be unstable again....makes zero sense. McDermott has been there since 2010 and he got to cut his teeth for years at lower levels as head man.
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Omaha has no NBA team to compete with, no MLB team or NFL team....Marquette has to deal with all of those.
Maurice Watson also had legal issues and pled no contest for assaulting a woman after having sexual assault charges dropped.
Creighton has had stability with coaching, yet so many here cannot wait to be unstable again....makes zero sense. McDermott has been there since 2010 and he got to cut his teeth for years at lower levels as head man.
How does MLB interfere with MU? How does the NFL?? We have what, one maybe two Sunday games? Many argue an NBA team is a plus for MU. Don’t buy your comparisons.
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How does MLB interfere with MU? How does the NFL?? We have what, one maybe two Sunday games? Many argue an NBA team is a plus for MU. Don’t buy your comparisons.
I think maybe he means for the general public's entertainment dollar? Seems like the only way that'd make sense.
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How does MLB interfere with MU? How does the NFL?? We have what, one maybe two Sunday games? Many argue an NBA team is a plus for MU. Don’t buy your comparisons.
Easy answer. When I ran marketing for athletics at MU we surveyed Milwaukeans and season ticket holders multiple times. Did outside research as well with a firm. There are large cohorts of people on budgets that pick and choose where their entertainment budget goes. They may buy a 10 pack of Brewers games, or go to one Packers game...that’s what they can afford. They have an interest in MU basketball, but not the budget when offered other choices. Omaha doesn’t have to deal with those extra options to the same degree. The comment Herman made was about attendance, but that doesn’t just mean overlapping seasons with MU on the calendar....it also becomes an economic choice for people and what options there are in the market.
Simply put, there are many more competing high level sporting options for MU fans than Creighton fans. I’m not even factoring in Chicago an easy drive or minor league options (which yes, Omaha has some, too).
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I think maybe he means for the general public's entertainment dollar? Seems like the only way that'd make sense.
That’s exactly what it is, and reams of data to support it.
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Right now MU is performing at a level that would be acceptable at Creighton.
In fact, if the post Doug McDermott record of Creighton is compared to ours it is pretty similar. A couple of tournament bids, some NIT. The one good team they had was stymied when Maurice Watson Jr tore ACL , prior to that injury, they were ranking in top 10 and looking very good.
The only difference in the programs now is that MU plays in actual NBA arena , they play in one the same size and fill it.
Omaha has no NBA team to compete with, no MLB team or NFL team....Marquette has to deal with all of those.
Maurice Watson also had legal issues and pled no contest for assaulting a woman after having sexual assault charges dropped.
Creighton has had stability with coaching, yet so many here cannot wait to be unstable again....makes zero sense. McDermott has been there since 2010 and he got to cut his teeth for years at lower levels as head man.
Omaha has no NBA team to compete with, no MLB team or NFL team....Marquette has to deal with all of those.
Maurice Watson also had legal issues and pled no contest for assaulting a woman after having sexual assault charges dropped.
Creighton has had stability with coaching, yet so many here cannot wait to be unstable again....makes zero sense. McDermott has been there since 2010 and he got to cut his teeth for years at lower levels as head man.
All valid points. However, they do not really address the basic point made, that being MU and Creighton performance pretty much the same. I could be wrong, but I think MU fan base expects more. Creighton getting all they can get out of their assets, MU basketball is not.
Also here is the actual detail of Maurice Watson Jr. case.
https://www.omaha.com/news/crime/prosecutors-drop-rape-charge-against-maurice-watson-ex-creighton-player/article_30ff9328-9fb3-11e7-ab49-8f82624c17cf.html
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All valid points. However, they do not really address the basic point made, that being MU and Creighton performance pretty much the same. I could be wrong, but I think MU fan base expects more. Creighton getting all they can get out of their assets, MU basketball is not.
Also here is the actual detail of Maurice Watson Jr. case.
https://www.omaha.com/news/crime/prosecutors-drop-rape-charge-against-maurice-watson-ex-creighton-player/article_30ff9328-9fb3-11e7-ab49-8f82624c17cf.html
Aware of Watson, felt like I stated it correctly.
I believe our trajectory at MU the past few years has been very good. Let Wojo continue to work to build on that trajectory.
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Aware of Watson, felt like I stated it correctly.
I believe our trajectory at MU the past few years has been very good. Let Wojo continue to work to build on that trajectory.
Not Herman. He wants wojo out and MU to have to start all over again
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Omaha has no NBA team to compete with, no MLB team or NFL team....Marquette has to deal with all of those.
Maurice Watson also had legal issues and pled no contest for assaulting a woman after having sexual assault charges dropped.
Creighton has had stability with coaching, yet so many here cannot wait to be unstable again....makes zero sense. McDermott has been there since 2010 and he got to cut his teeth for years at lower levels as head man.
And let's be honest, what has that stability gotten them?? Not very much in reality. I say that because so many people seem to think "stability" is some magic pill, and it's the best chance of hitting it big so to speak. Yet, there are plenty of examples that show sticking with the wrong guy too long is detrimental to your program, and it's better to "start" over as long as you get the next hire right.
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Call me a Wojo apologist or maybe someone who looks a little deeper and am much more patient than most posters.
Hasn't MU been to 3 straight post-seasons and 2 of the those NCAA berths? This year they are predicted to be a potential top 25 team after losing 2 unexpected transfers? Compare Marquette to what Smart, Martin and Howland have done and those were the other finalists back when Wojo got the job.
Sorry, but when I see schools hanging on to guys who might be breaking NCAA rules and who haven't done a hell of a lot better than Wojo has done, if they have been better, I'm not going to call for someone's head.
Agreed. But need this next class to be good to keep it going at that level and preferably better.
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Call me a Wojo apologist or maybe someone who looks a little deeper and am much more patient than most posters.
Hasn't MU been to 3 straight post-seasons and 2 of the those NCAA berths? This year they are predicted to be a potential top 25 team after losing 2 unexpected transfers? Compare Marquette to what Smart, Martin and Howland have done and those were the other finalists back when Wojo got the job.
Sorry, but when I see schools hanging on to guys who might be breaking NCAA rules and who haven't done a hell of a lot better than Wojo has done, if they have been better, I'm not going to call for someone's head.
A. We don't know that any of those Coaches wouldn't have performed better at MU then they are at their current jobs(although wanted no part of Martin).
B. I guess it depends on one's expectations for the MU program and what they want them to be(and believe they can be).
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In spite of how dumb our fan-base and university leadership is.
I love how many of the board bullies/boobs are down on UConn re-joining the Big East if this is somehow a bad thing. Somehow getting a school with 4 men's basketball championships in the last 30 years while being located in the heart of our geographic footprint is pause for concern. :o
Yet getting smoke-in-mirrors Gonzaga, which is located in ho-bunk Washington and plays in a gym the size of my high school, is really the desired get. ::) Gonzaga has to stack their non-conference every year with at least 7 good teams so the rest of the nation doesn't fall completely asleep on them before they get an undeserved seed and quickly exit from the NCAA tournament in most years. In spite of this they are an "exciting" program with sustainable appeal regardless if they never won a championship, have a small fan base, a poor geographical location for recruiting and present horrible travel logistics for all other sports and members in the Big East.
While were on roll hurting the AAC lets also get Memphis to park football elsewhere and join the Big East to round out our number to 12. Then wait and see if Boston College eventually drops football due to their small stadium and tepid football fan-base. Maybe ND wants to park all their sports in the Big East again too if the ACC pushes them too much on the revenue sharing front. Perhaps then we can be part of a conference with lots of top 50 recruits again as Penny Hardaway has been tearing it up on the recruiting front. Meanwhile as the attached link below illustrates the Big East is sucking wind on the 2020 top 50-100 recruiting front as every "Big" East team stunk in both postseason tournaments last year. Well actually Marquette has the best shot of having a good class within the conference and is mentioned with the most top players but at the end of the day we'll finish 2nd or 3rd with the ones we really want and end up with a couple top 75 to 100 players. Of course if past history is any indication of the future then one of them will transfer after one year any ways.
All this talk about staying with other "catholic" basketball schools is laughable. If anyone has been around DePaul's current student body lately they might think they took a wrong turn and ended up in the United Nations. One of my friend's took his daughter for a campus tour at DePaul and not once during the tour did they even mention they are a catholic school. They have distanced themselves from their catholic roots as getting a large paying student body is tantamount. In fact DePaul now has such a large Palestinian faction of students that they have regular anti-Israel meetings in the student union that I witness as I cut through there on cold winter days on the way to their gym.
So the bottom line is basketball clout, geography and money is what will drive the future membership of the Big East. Duke used to pretend like academics ruled their world too but when all the McDonald's All Americans started going to college for just one year they adapted and have become a one and done haven no different than Kentucky which has no academic reputation to protect. Because of this we have just as much in common with Memphis as we do with our current Big East members and that being great basketball which generates lots of free publicity and money to help keep the lights on at each member university.
Marquette has a lot to sell with amazing facilities including the nation's premier luxury home arena that draws even 17,000 fans when playing a mid-major like Buffalo. With $25MM in annual basketball revenues we can pay great salaries to draw top assistants and head coaches and recruits alike. However the enablers have allowed an incompetent Wojo to linger around with non-stop excuses for the program's lack of progress. So that will no doubt hurt our ability to have a great recruiting class this year that we normally should be able to get as top recruits don't want to have the Henry Ellenson or Romeo Langford effect of having their stock drop by being associated with a poorly coached team for their one year in college.
A smart program, which MU is not, would have moved on from Wojo this off-season and got a hot mid-major coach or given Stan Johnson a three year contract to see if he could bring fresh life into the program. Instead MU double downed on stupid and will continue to pay the price for this. Hopefully Wojo pulls a Buzz and leaves by his own volition within the next two years to save the program any more hardship.
https://247sports.com/Season/2020-Basketball/CompositeRecruitRankings/?InstitutionGroup=HighSchool
(https://media.giphy.com/media/l42PzESMT328FoSXe/giphy.gif)
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And let's be honest, what has that stability gotten them?? Not very much in reality. I say that because so many people seem to think "stability" is some magic pill, and it's the best chance of hitting it big so to speak. Yet, there are plenty of examples that show sticking with the wrong guy too long is detrimental to your program, and it's better to "start" over as long as you get the next hire right.
And plenty of examples of pulling the plug early and going into a tailspin, too. What’s your point?
Creighton has had two coaches the last 25 years or so. Dana Altman and Greg McDermott. They have 12 NCAA appearances in that time period, and a number of NIT bids. In the previous 55 years prior to that stability, 9 NCAA bids. Stability means something. It is what got them into the Big East.
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And plenty of examples of pulling the plug early and going into a tailspin, too. What’s your point?
Creighton has had two coaches the last 25 years or so. Dana Altman and Greg McDermott. They have 12 NCAA appearances in that time period, and a number of NIT bids. In the previous 55 years prior to that stability, 9 NCAA bids. Stability means something. It is what got them into the Big East.
So in 25 years, they have gained 3 more NCAA bids(from the previous 55), and 12 in 25 years from their "stability"?? Sorry, butI think you just made my point. If you think that's impressive, I don't know what to tell you my friend. Maybe at Creighton, that's fantastic...good for them. But hypothetically, if that's what MU got out of that much stability...That would be an absolute joke. I would certainly hope MU fans have a desire to be levels above Creighton in the pecking order.
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Aware of Watson, felt like I stated it correctly.
I believe our trajectory at MU the past few years has been very good. Let Wojo continue to work to build on that trajectory.
It is our trajectory that I am most concerned about. There are a handful of Blue Bloods programs ,a dozen or so very elite programs and maybe two dozen very good programs. I feel that prior to Wojo , MU was near the top of very good programs and now post Wojo they are closer to the bottom of those programs.
The risk with Wojo is that his performance continues at the current pace and MU falls out of the very good category and into the generic high major category.
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It is our trajectory that I am most concerned about. There are a handful of Blue Bloods programs ,a dozen or so very elite programs and maybe two dozen very good programs. I feel that prior to Wojo , MU was near the top of very good programs and now post Wojo they are closer to the bottom of those programs.
The risk with Wojo is that his performance continues at the current pace and MU falls out of the very good category and into the generic high major category.
Any “downward” trajectory was a direct result of Buzz Williams quitting on a team picked to win the Big East and then taking a recruiting class out the door with him
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It is our trajectory that I am most concerned about. There are a handful of Blue Bloods programs ,a dozen or so very elite programs and maybe two dozen very good programs. I feel that prior to Wojo , MU was near the top of very good programs and now post Wojo they are closer to the bottom of those programs.
The risk with Wojo is that his performance continues at the current pace and MU falls out of the very good category and into the generic high major category.
Prior to Wojo when Buzz took the year off, tanked and got paid millions for doing so? Uhm, no.
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Prior to Wojo when Buzz took the year off, tanked and got paid millions for doing so? Uhm, no.
EVERYTHING is buzz's fault, isn't it Chicos?? Absolutely everything. Whenever someone tries to be critical of Wojo, Buzz always comes up from you. It's uncanny. Hell, it's probably Buzz's fault(in your mind) that the Hauser's transferred, That MU lost to Omaha in wojo's first year, that Greg Elliott can't seem to stay healthy. All on buzz.
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EVERYTHING is buzz's fault, isn't it Chicos?? Absolutely everything. Whenever someone tries to be critical of Wojo, Buzz always comes up from you. It's uncanny. Hell, it's probably Buzz's fault(in your mind) that the Hauser's transferred, That MU lost to Omaha in wojo's first year, that Greg Elliott can't seem to stay healthy. All on buzz.
Are you insinuating Greg constantly getting injured is Wojos fault or just listing things that are random?
Also one could make a case that buzz was at least a tiny bit culpable for Omaha as everyone but Carlino was a buzz commit/recruit.
Chico's does have an odd tendency to blame buzz for things though others protect his name at all costs.
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EVERYTHING is buzz's fault, isn't it Chicos?? Absolutely everything. Whenever someone tries to be critical of Wojo, Buzz always comes up from you. It's uncanny. Hell, it's probably Buzz's fault(in your mind) that the Hauser's transferred, That MU lost to Omaha in wojo's first year, that Greg Elliott can't seem to stay healthy. All on buzz.
Actually, all dat chit is on Crean, hey?
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So in 25 years, they have gained 3 more NCAA bids(from the previous 55), and 12 in 25 years from their "stability"?? Sorry, butI think you just made my point. If you think that's impressive, I don't know what to tell you my friend. Maybe at Creighton, that's fantastic...good for them. But hypothetically, if that's what MU got out of that much stability...That would be an absolute joke. I would certainly hope MU fans have a desire to be levels above Creighton in the pecking order.
NCAA bid every other year the last 25 years vs 1 bid every 5 years when they were going through a lot of coaches.
I agree MU should be above Creighton, but you continue to miss the point on a daily basis. You opine there is no way of knowing what those other coaches instead of Wojo would have done...correct you are. Guess what, no way of knowing if we fire him what the next guy(s) will do either....but suddenly you don’t want to use that logic anymore.
Until Wojo gives us a reason to be fired, I have seen none to date, why are you in a rush to do something that your own logic if fully followed doesn’t guarantee anything?
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EVERYTHING is buzz's fault, isn't it Chicos?? Absolutely everything. Whenever someone tries to be critical of Wojo, Buzz always comes up from you. It's uncanny. Hell, it's probably Buzz's fault(in your mind) that the Hauser's transferred, That MU lost to Omaha in wojo's first year, that Greg Elliott can't seem to stay healthy. All on buzz.
I didn’t say that, but every time you guys bring up Buzz and trajectory you miraculously forget an entire season, his last season, the one in the same Big East we play in now....so convenient to forget that season. I can logically see how one’s first year is a transition year, players leaving, getting used to new style of play, but the last year after many years at the helm....yet time and again this year has been stricken from the minds of people like Will Smith put a MIB memory wand in front of some you and wiped your minds. Amazing.
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I didn’t say that, but every time you guys bring up Buzz and trajectory you miraculously forget an entire season, his last season, the one in the same Big East we play in now....so convenient to forget that season. I can logically see how one’s first year is a transition year, players leaving, getting used to new style of play, but the last year after many years at the helm....yet time and again this year has been stricken from the minds of people like Will Smith put a MIB memory wand in front of some you and wiped your minds. Amazing.
It's called a deneurolyzer not an MIB memory wand...
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NCAA bid every other year the last 25 years vs 1 bid every 5 years when they were going through a lot of coaches.
I agree MU should be above Creighton, but you continue to miss the point on a daily basis. You opine there is no way of knowing what those other coaches instead of Wojo would have done...correct you are. Guess what, no way of knowing if we fire him what the next guy(s) will do either....but suddenly you don’t want to use that logic anymore.
Until Wojo gives us a reason to be fired, I have seen none to date, why are you in a rush to do something that your own logic if fully followed doesn’t guarantee anything?
It's a gut feel for me, and instinct, but I'm willing to take that chance, that MU would get not only more immediate results then Wojo did, but better results after 5 years. I'm also fairly certain that Wojo will NEVER get MU to the level some of us want them to be at. So if you follow the logic here, by my way of thinking, if he's not the guy to lead you there(and MY gut) says he isn't, why just keep kicking the can down the street so to speak?? What is that going to get you?? The absolute WORST thing that happens IMO if you fired him now, is you get the same results after 5 years you have now. So did you accomplish anything by firing him in that case?? No, you didn't, but you didn't lose anything either(because you were pretty certain Wojo wasn't the guy anyway).
Again, it's gut instinct for me, I personally haven't seen anything after 5 years(and your own words, 5 years to judge a Coach), that blows me away to make me think he can get to where some of us want to see MU be. You can say his trajectory has been up, sure. and that for some is enough, I get that. But for me, that in and of itself, isn't enough after 5 years. I had expected the results to be better by now. Obviously not National Championship good, but better then zero tournament wins and no conference championships.
I use the bar that Crean and Buzz set after 5 years at MU as the minimum I'd expect out of a coach at MU, whether it's Wojo or Jim Bob. Are circumstances different with each one?? Sure, but that just tells you that regardless of circumstances, the first two were able to accomplish what they did. So I look at it as, regardless of circumstances, why hasn't Wojo accomplished at least the same?? I honestly thought he would have because for my money at least on reputation, I thought he'd be the best recruiter MU has had since Al. I thought(again, my opinion), that regardless of anything else, his recruiting would carry him every year. That just hasn't happened yet.
Again, it's VERY important to understand, this is the way I personally see things, it's MY opinion.
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“In spite of how dumb our fan-base and university leadership is.”
...are.
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It's a gut feel for me, and instinct, but I'm willing to take that chance, that MU would get not only more immediate results then Wojo did, but better results after 5 years. I'm also fairly certain that Wojo will NEVER get MU to the level some of us want them to be at. So if you follow the logic here, by my way of thinking, if he's not the guy to lead you there(and MY gut) says he isn't, why just keep kicking the can down the street so to speak?? What is that going to get you?? The absolute WORST thing that happens IMO if you fired him now, is you get the same results after 5 years you have now. So did you accomplish anything by firing him in that case?? No, you didn't, but you didn't lose anything either(because you were pretty certain Wojo wasn't the guy anyway).
Again, it's gut instinct for me, I personally haven't seen anything after 5 years(and your own words, 5 years to judge a Coach), that blows me away to make me think he can get to where some of us want to see MU be. You can say his trajectory has been up, sure. and that for some is enough, I get that. But for me, that in and of itself, isn't enough after 5 years. I had expected the results to be better by now. Obviously not National Championship good, but better then zero tournament wins and no conference championships.
I use the bar that Crean and Buzz set after 5 years at MU as the minimum I'd expect out of a coach at MU, whether it's Wojo or Jim Bob. Are circumstances different with each one?? Sure, but that just tells you that regardless of circumstances, the first two were able to accomplish what they did. So I look at it as, regardless of circumstances, why hasn't Wojo accomplished at least the same?? I honestly thought he would have because for my money at least on reputation, I thought he'd be the best recruiter MU has had since Al. I thought(again, my opinion), that regardless of anything else, his recruiting would carry him every year. That just hasn't happened yet.
Again, it's VERY important to understand, this is the way I personally see things, it's MY opinion.
I agree with this analysis.
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I'm still curious on who these 'boob' people are, and what makes one a boob.
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Great minds think alike Mr. Cain....unfortunately we’re in short supply in the MU basketball community.
Thanks for the info. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I'm still curious on who these 'boob' people are, and what makes one a boob.
I love boobs, so does that make me a "boob" person?? :P
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How does MLB interfere with MU? How does the NFL?? We have what, one maybe two Sunday games? Many argue an NBA team is a plus for MU. Don’t buy your comparisons.
When the Hartford Whalers were in town people complained that UConn got all the press.
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I'm still curious on who these 'boob' people are, and what makes one a boob.
boobs are over rated, i'm a tail-feather guy myself, just not those over inflated bubble things made out of jell-o. ya gotta love the ones that can carry a quarter for a hundred yard dash and give ya change at the finish line baby
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Interesting post by one person's opinion. Some will strongly agree, mildly agree, mildly disagree or strongly disagree.
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I use the bar that Crean and Buzz set after 5 years at MU as the minimum I'd expect out of a coach at MU, whether it's Wojo or Jim Bob.
You realize you're holding Wojo to an impossible standard. Both Crean and Buzz got players admitted to Marquette that would never be offered a scholarship by the current powers that be due to grades. Is it right? I think Wade and Crowder are great spokesmen for the University and Marquette Community, but the powers that be have decided to make sure that all student athletes are very much students before being athletes. Take away Wade, take away Crowder, is Wojo equal to Crean and Buzz? I'd argue Wojo's result would be ahead of Crean and on par or better than Buzz.
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You realize you're holding Wojo to an impossible standard. Both Crean and Buzz got players admitted to Marquette that would never be offered a scholarship by the current powers that be due to grades. Is it right? I think Wade and Crowder are great spokesmen for the University and Marquette Community, but the powers that be have decided to make sure that all student athletes are very much students before being athletes. Take away Wade, take away Crowder, is Wojo equal to Crean and Buzz? I'd argue Wojo's result would be ahead of Crean and on par or better than Buzz.
Now, I'm not saying admit anyone and everyone, but doesn't this speak at least somewhat to the lack of desire the admin has for wanting to be elite?? Why handcuff your Coache(s) like that if you have a true desire to have an exceptional basketball team?? This is one of the many reasons I have stated that I feel like the admin doesn't have the level of commitment it takes to get to the top. They say they do, but their actions don't show it. With what MU spends on their program, they need to be more supportive IMO.
Almost every school in the country, admits some athletes that they maybe shouldn't. Why should MU be any different and have this holier than thou attitude??
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Now, I'm not saying admit anyone and everyone, but doesn't this speak at least somewhat to the lack of desire the admin has for wanting to be elite?? Why handcuff your Coache(s) like that if you have a true desire to have an exceptional basketball team?? This is one of the many reasons I have stated that I feel like the admin doesn't have the level of commitment it takes to get to the top. They say they do, but their actions don't show it. With what MU spends on their program, they need to be more supportive IMO.
Almost every school in the country, admits some athletes that they maybe shouldn't. Why should MU be any different and have this holier than thou attitude??
Because the core statement and goal of the university doesn’t revolve around shoots ball?
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Because the core statement and goal of the university doesn’t revolve around shoots ball?
In case you didn't know, guru didn't go to Marquette. And he has said multiple times he doesn't care about the university in any regard outside the men's bball program. So, yea
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In case you didn't know, guru didn't go to Marquette. And he has said multiple times he doesn't care about the university in any regard outside the men's bball program. So, yea
Did not know that. I didn’t go, either. I’m a local interloper. As an outsider with no skin in the game as an alum, it’s easy to say “just win, baby”.
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You know who recruited student-first athletes? Mike Deane. I remember hearing a story about how he redshirted John Polonowski because Polo wanted to pursue a graduate degree and redshirting would give him a free year of school. I have no idea if that’s true, but considering where the program was headed at that point, I’d believe it.
This is, supposedly, big time college sports. Recruit dummies who can play ball and provide an academic support staff to keep them eligible. Nothing wrong with that, hey?
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You realize you're holding Wojo to an impossible standard. Both Crean and Buzz got players admitted to Marquette that would never be offered a scholarship by the current powers that be due to grades. Is it right? I think Wade and Crowder are great spokesmen for the University and Marquette Community, but the powers that be have decided to make sure that all student athletes are very much students before being athletes. Take away Wade, take away Crowder, is Wojo equal to Crean and Buzz? I'd argue Wojo's result would be ahead of Crean and on par or better than Buzz.
Not necessarily. Buzz was able to get guys like Crowder because of the success both on the court and in the classroom of Wade and other guys Crean brought in who were considered "risky." Crean was only allowed one JUCO at a time to start (Kinsella was not considered a JUCO since he had started at Rice) and Lott had to show he could get the job done in the classroom before Crean could recruit another. Crowder (and others) didn't take care of business in the classroom and that caused the MU administration to pull back on the extreme leeway they gave Buzz due to the results off the court.
Still, let's not pretend the same standards for all incoming students are being applied to men's hoops and that Wojo can only take guys that fit the Bart Miller or David Diggs profile. Even Ivy schools give leeway to athletes (and it doesn't even require six-figure bribes to get it).
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You know who recruited student-first athletes? Mike Deane. I remember hearing a story about how he redshirted John Polonowski because Polo wanted to pursue a graduate degree and redshirting would give him a free year of school. I have no idea if that’s true, but considering where the program was headed at that point, I’d believe it.
This is, supposedly, big time college sports. Recruit dummies who can play ball and provide an academic support staff to keep them eligible. Nothing wrong with that, hey?
Deane got burned by Alton Mason, who had to leave at fall break because he couldn't cut it academically. After that he was scared off of "at risk" kids and so he recruited guys like John Mueller, Bart Miller and David Diggs - great representatives of the university, hard workers but not who will lead you to the NCAA tournament (though Diggs' 5-5 from 3 in the GAS title game will always have him view favorably for me).
One can find solid students and excellent players. Wes Matthews was recruited by Stanford back when Stanford wasn't bending academic standards. The problem was Buzz recruited guys who needed summer school to get eligible every year (one year eight guys needed summer credits to get eligible, summer is supposed to be for getting guys ahead so they can take a lower course load during the year) and stretched academic support thin.