Welcome to the club Auburn. You got jobbed by Breeding and his band of idiots.
Probably for the best, had Auburn won it all, the title would eventually be vacated thanks to Chuck Person & Bruce Pearl.
Tony Bennett, like his dad, is one of the good guys. I am pulling for UVA.
Everyone admitted that no one thought it was a double dribble until they started looking at replays. No coach or player complained, no announcer etc. It was a missed call but one that would likely be missed most of the time - the kind that if it was called everyone would have been outraged in disbelief and then realized it was a great call. Just like a bad roll - Auburn caught a bad break. I live 2 miles from the celebration they still had!
https://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2019/4/6/18298710/auburn-final-four-celebration-video-toomers-corner-premature-virginia-final-four-march-madness
Quote from: auburnmarquette on April 07, 2019, 10:02:49 AM
Everyone admitted that no one thought it was a double dribble until they started looking at replays. No coach or player complained, no announcer etc. It was a missed call but one that would likely be missed most of the time - the kind that if it was called everyone would have been outraged in disbelief and then realized it was a great call. Just like a bad roll - Auburn caught a bad break. I live 2 miles from the celebration they still had!
https://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2019/4/6/18298710/auburn-final-four-celebration-video-toomers-corner-premature-virginia-final-four-march-madness
Exactly. It was obvious to no one until the game was over.
Disagree. Double-dribble is the easiest call in all of basketball.
Did you think the defender knocked the ball away? Because, if you did not, as soon as he put 2 hands on the ball the dribble was dead. Really easy call, especially in the open court.
I saw it immediately, and I would think most serious fans/coaches did the same.
Quote from: 94Warrior on April 07, 2019, 10:27:23 AM
Disagree. Double-dribble is the easiest call in all of basketball.
Did you think the defender knocked the ball away? Because, if you did not, as soon as he put 2 hands on the ball the dribble was dead. Really easy call, especially in the open court.
I saw it immediately, and I would think most serious fans/coaches did the same.
Pearl didn't. Even after the timeout there were no complaints.
Quote from: 94Warrior on April 07, 2019, 10:27:23 AM
Disagree. Double-dribble is the easiest call in all of basketball.
Did you think the defender knocked the ball away? Because, if you did not, as soon as he put 2 hands on the ball the dribble was dead. Really easy call, especially in the open court.
I saw it immediately, and I would think most serious fans/coaches did the same.
Moot, he was fouled before it even happened...ref missed the foul as well. Pearl was telling them and motioning to foul UVA, which they did. UVA got lucky, it happens.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 07, 2019, 10:30:26 AM
Pearl didn't. Even after the timeout there were no complaints.
Pearl was busy instructing his players to foul, and looking at them. He wasn't looking at the ballhandler, or he would have gone ballistic.
2 refs were looking right at the ballhandler, and swallowed their whistles.
Quote from: 94Warrior on April 07, 2019, 10:35:26 AM
Pearl was busy instructing his players to foul, and looking at them. He wasn't looking at the ballhandler, or he would have gone ballistic.
2 refs were looking right at the ballhandler, and swallowed their whistles.
Oh.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 07, 2019, 10:40:40 AM
Oh.
Whatever.
Poor officiating in college basketball is tolerated, Pearl is dirty, Bennett is clean, nothing to see here until it happens to the team you love (and it will, again).
Rant over.
Quote from: 94Warrior on April 07, 2019, 10:45:25 AM
Whatever.
Poor officiating in college basketball is tolerated, Pearl is dirty, Bennett is clean, nothing to see here until it happens to the team you love (and it will, again).
Rant over.
The exact same officiating crew that called a foul on a three-point shot with .6 seconds remaining swallowed their whistle on a blatant and obvious double dribbled (one so blatant and obvious that neither the Auburn coaching staff or TV commentators saw it) several seconds earlier?
OK.
Whether or not Pearl saw it is irrelevant. The rule is clear and absolute, and the officials who were a couple feet away missed the call. As for the attempted foul...we have all seen how incredibly variable contact can be to draw a foul. Some guys get knocked to the floor with no call, while others get a call with little or no contact.
I know it's hard for people to admit Pearl's team got screwed on that sequence...but Pearl's team got screwed on that sequence.
Easier missed call, he was fouled before he picked it up again for the double dribble.
https://www.youtube.com/v/GsdewRt7t_U&feature=youtu.be
Jay Williams properly calls out Pandora's Box
https://www.youtube.com/v/f4wrBBCFfY0&feature=youtu.be
Slight jersey grab, eh Dimer. LOL
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3jZbPEW0AAU1zJ.jpg)
Did Auburn player travel here seconds before? We can play this game forever.
https://twitter.com/KyleNel21575344/status/1114727752253546496
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 07, 2019, 10:58:25 AM
Whether or not Pearl saw it is irrelevant. The rule is clear and absolute, and the officials who were a couple feet away missed the call. As for the attempted foul...we have all seen how incredibly variable contact can be to draw a foul. Some guys get knocked to the floor with no call, while others get a call with little or no contact.
I know it's hard for people to admit Pearl's team got screwed on that sequence...but Pearl's team got screwed on that sequence.
Straw man.
I don't see anyone here saying that it wasn't a missed call. The issues is whether, as 94 claims, it was an obvious double dribble that the officials willfully ignored, or whether it was difficult to see infraction that apparently nobody in the arena noticed until it had been reviewed on video following a couple of timeouts.
Given the non-reaction by the Auburn players, Auburn bench and TV commentators, common sense dictates the latter.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 07, 2019, 11:06:44 AM
Straw man.
I don't see anyone here saying that it wasn't a missed call. The issues is whether, as 94 claims, it was an obvious double dribble that the officials willfully ignored, or whether it was difficult to see infraction that apparently nobody in the arena noticed until it had been reviewed on video following a couple of timeouts.
Given the non-reaction by the Auburn players, Auburn bench and TV commentators, common sense dictates the latter.
I never said they willfully ignored it. I said they blew it. Sounds like you agree.
Have a nice day.
Tony Bennett and UVA will win the natty... Luck, skill, experience, and officiating are all on their side!
How Breeding got employed in any postseason tournament is a travesty.
Quote from: Cheeks on April 07, 2019, 11:03:27 AM
Slight jersey grab, eh Dimer. LOL
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3jZbPEW0AAU1zJ.jpg)
A screen shot to back your argument. Cute. It was a minor grab in that he quickly released it. Any still shots of that chest slap you also said took place? Lmao
Also, unlike that infraction which is a judgment call, the double dribble was not. And for those saying coaches and players weren't yelling, fans weren't throwing stuff on the court and no one tried to burn the building down after the missed call, that's fine. It's not any of their jobs to officiate the game. It's the ref's jobs. It's their job to know the rules and identify what was an obvious infraction. And they blew that call.
Quote from: 94Warrior on April 07, 2019, 10:35:26 AM
Pearl was busy instructing his players to foul, and looking at them. He wasn't looking at the ballhandler, or he would have gone ballistic.
2 refs were looking right at the ballhandler, and swallowed their whistles.
So did the Announcers. You really are Good.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 07, 2019, 11:39:17 AM
I never said they willfully ignored it. I said they blew it. Sounds like you agree.
Have a nice day.
Ummm ... I wrote:
The issues is whether,
as 94 claims, it was an obvious double dribble that the officials willfully ignored
Quote from: Pakuni on April 07, 2019, 11:06:44 AM
Straw man.
I don't see anyone here saying that it wasn't a missed call. The issues is whether, as 94 claims, it was an obvious double dribble that the officials willfully ignored, or whether it was difficult to see infraction that apparently nobody in the arena noticed until it had been reviewed on video following a couple of timeouts.
Given the non-reaction by the Auburn players, Auburn bench and TV commentators, common sense dictates the latter.
Swallowed their whistle was a bad choice of word. I didn't mean to imply they willfully ignored it. They are just bad at their jobs.
Fouls are judgement calls, double-dribbles are not.
Quote from: NickelDimer on April 07, 2019, 11:41:40 AM
A screen shot to back your argument. Cute. It was a minor grab in that he quickly released it. Any still shots of that chest slap you also said took place? Lmao
Also, unlike that infraction which is a judgment call, the double dribble was not. And for those saying coaches and players weren't yelling, fans weren't throwing stuff on the court and no one tried to burn the building down after the missed call, that's fine. It's not any of their jobs to officiate the game. It's the ref's jobs. It's their job to know the rules and identify what was an obvious infraction. And they blew that call.
Every call is a judgment call.....it is up to the ref to make a judgment to blow his whistle and make a call. As Jay Williams properly said, he was fouled.
Second, did the Auburn player travel before that on the inbounds pass? Judgment call. All of the calls are ultimately a judgment call.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 07, 2019, 11:46:33 AM
Ummm ... I wrote:
The issues is whether, as 94 claims, it was an obvious double dribble that the officials willfully ignored
This is 94's original post:
Welcome to the club Auburn. You got jobbed by Breeding and his band of idiots.
Probably for the best, had Auburn won it all, the title would eventually be vacated thanks to Chuck Person & Bruce Pearl.
Tony Bennett, like his dad, is one of the good guys. I am pulling for UVA.I don't see anything about the refs
willfully screwing Auburn or preferring UVa. I just see an accusation of incompetence. And as 94 said just above, he had no intention of implying otherwise.
I asked it before, but nobody took the bait. Did anybody here believe the defender knocked the ball away????
That is the ONLY explanation for not seeing a double-dribble in the open court. There is no judgement to make here. He PICKED up the ball with both hands and resumed dribbling.
No conspiracy here, just incompetence.
Quote from: 94Warrior on April 07, 2019, 11:57:01 AM
I asked it before, but nobody took the bait. Did anybody here believe the defender knocked the ball away????
That is the ONLY explanation for not seeing a double-dribble in the open court. There is no judgement to make here. He PICKED up the ball with both hands and resumed dribbling.
No conspiracy here, just incompetence.
The incompetence came from the ref, in this image below, looking STRAIGHT at the play, not calling the foul. That was the incompetence. WELL before the double dribble.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3jZbPEW0AAU1zJ.jpg)
Quote from: 94Warrior on April 07, 2019, 11:57:01 AM
I asked it before, but nobody took the bait. Did anybody here believe the defender knocked the ball away????
That is the ONLY explanation for not seeing a double-dribble in the open court. There is no judgement to make here. He PICKED up the ball with both hands and resumed dribbling.
No conspiracy here, just incompetence.
Guy grabbed his jersey, that's why he lost his dribble. Probably why the ref let it go?
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 07, 2019, 11:56:13 AM
This is 94's original post:
Welcome to the club Auburn. You got jobbed by Breeding and his band of idiots.
Probably for the best, had Auburn won it all, the title would eventually be vacated thanks to Chuck Person & Bruce Pearl.
Tony Bennett, like his dad, is one of the good guys. I am pulling for UVA.
I don't see anything about the refs willfully screwing Auburn or preferring UVa. I just see an accusation of incompetence. And as 94 said just above, he had no intention of implying otherwise.
and here's wht he later wrote:
2 refs were looking right at the ballhandler, and swallowed their whistles.Swallowed their whistles = willfully ignoring the infraction.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 07, 2019, 12:01:05 PM
and here's wht he later wrote:
2 refs were looking right at the ballhandler, and swallowed their whistles.
Swallowed their whistles = willfully ignoring the infraction.
He actually said he had no intention to imply willfulness. But whatever. You read it one way, I read it another....
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 07, 2019, 12:02:09 PM
He actually said he had no intention to imply willfulness. But whatever.
So they looked right at the ballhandler and accidentally swallowed their whistles. Duly noted.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 07, 2019, 12:03:16 PM
So they looked right at the ballhandler and accidentally swallowed their whistles. Duly noted.
Incompetently.
By the way, these guys aren't just "BIG EAST REFS". Breeding works ACC, Big East, Big Ten and other conferences.
Quote from: Cheeks on April 07, 2019, 11:50:01 AM
Every call is a judgment call.....it is up to the ref to make a judgment to blow his whistle and make a call. As Jay Williams properly said, he was fouled.
Second, did the Auburn player travel before that on the inbounds pass? Judgment call. All of the calls are ultimately a judgment call.
That double dribble isn't a judgment call. I'm assuming you can differentiate between that infraction and many other types like fouls etc
Quote from: NickelDimer on April 07, 2019, 12:09:56 PM
That double dribble isn't a judgment call. I'm assuming you can differentiate between that infraction and many other types like fouls etc
If it isn't called, then someone made a judgment not to call it. So about that travel....also an infraction...how come it wasn't called?
Quote from: Cheeks on April 07, 2019, 12:10:39 PM
If it isn't called, then someone made a judgment not to call it. So about that travel....also an infraction...how come it wasn't called?
No they missed it. They failed to do the job they're paid to do and enforce the rules they're paid to enforce. Has nothing to do with judgment. It was incompetence
So wait, Breeding doesn't have a day job kicking puppies?
Plus, the kid who committed the foul handles it the right way.
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/sports-columnists/story/2019-04-06/ncaa-final-four-virginia-auburn-samir-doughty-kyle-guy-referee (https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/sports-columnists/story/2019-04-06/ncaa-final-four-virginia-auburn-samir-doughty-kyle-guy-referee)
Lot of angst in this thread.
I have to say, I feel like I've seen this occur multiple times in our games this season and it wasn't called. Without putting two and two together, I honestly never thought about it being a double-dribble but obviously it is. For better or worse, I think this falls into the category for referees that most traveling calls and carrying calls also reside.
Is that a good thing, no, but I just see that referees (across several sports now) tend to focus mainly on "points of emphasis" as opposed to this category of calls. The leagues/governing bodies would prefer them to focus on enforcing fouls that are intended to alter the flow of the game in their desired direction (I'd call it activist officiating).
This also probably fits into the category of ticky-tack calls that referees almost invariably swallow their whistles on within the last few seconds of the game. From this perspective then, Auburn has a legitimate gripe because with 1 second left they were then called for the type of foul that happens on most buzzer beaters and 99.999% of the time, it isn't called. Is it a foul, indubitably, but you never see that called... Ever.
It just goes to show how referee-isms, like swallowing your whistle in certain scenarios, can lead to uneven outcomes.
Quote from: NickelDimer on April 07, 2019, 12:11:37 PM
No they missed it. They failed to do the job they're paid to do and enforce the rules they're paid to enforce. Has nothing to do with judgment. It was incompetence
They missed the travel call...I agree. See, we can all come to an agreement at times. Calls are missed, all the time.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 07, 2019, 12:03:16 PM
So they looked right at the ballhandler and accidentally swallowed their whistles. Duly noted.
I already said it was a poor choice I words, all I meant was they didn't blow the whistle.
Anyway, did you believe the defender knocked the ball away? I did not.
And, anyone who forms their opinions from some of these announcers, I am assuming don't care or pay attention as closely as you and I do. Everybody here knows and cares more about college basketball than most of the play-by-play announcers I have heard.
Quote from: 94Warrior on April 07, 2019, 02:10:33 PM
I already said it was a poor choice I words, all I meant was they didn't blow the whistle.
Anyway, did you believe the defender knocked the ball away? I did not.
And, anyone who forms their opinions from some of these announcers, I am assuming have never been on a team message board. Everybody here knows and cares more about college basketball than most of the announcers I have heard.
I'll go ahead and say Kenny, Chuck, Jay Williams, etc. have been exposed to a *little* higher level of basketball than *most* Scoopers have. Just a wild guess on that though.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 07, 2019, 02:16:09 PM
I'll go ahead and say Kenny, Chuck, Jay Williams, etc. have been exposed to a *little* higher level of basketball than *most* Scoopers have. Just a wild guess on that though.
Playing the game at a high level does not automatically confer the ability to describe the game at a high level. When Kenny tried to explain possessions, it was the most ridiculously incoherent attempt at talking about the game I have heard in a long, long time. He has zero concept of how advanced statistics work or how even a concept as simple as possessions works.
I don't think it's too much to ask that people who are paid specifically to talk about the game be able to do so in both an entertaining and accurately informative manner. Neither Kenny nor Charles are capable of doing that.
I really would have preferred an Auburn - Texas Tech Final.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 07, 2019, 02:16:09 PM
I'll go ahead and say Kenny, Chuck, Jay Williams, etc. have been exposed to a *little* higher level of basketball than *most* Scoopers have. Just a wild guess on that though.
I was talking about the majority of the play-by-play announcers we unfortunately are subjected to. There are many that can't follow the action, don't have the slightest idea why the whistle blew (until the ref signals the call to the scorers' table), can't understand why the crowd is upset, etc.
Come to think of it, most play-by-play guys are worse than your average Big East ref. Thankfully announcers don't decide the outcomes of games.
The studio guys know plenty more than any of us, but they are there to entertain you - not tell you how bad the reffing is.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 07, 2019, 02:19:56 PM
Playing the game at a high level does not automatically confer the ability to describe the game at a high level. When Kenny tried to explain possessions, it was the most ridiculously incoherent attempt at talking about the game I have heard in a long, long time. He has zero concept of how advanced statistics work or how even a concept as simple as possessions works.
I don't think it's too much to ask that people who are paid specifically to talk about the game be able to do so in both an entertaining and accurately informative manner. Neither Kenny nor Charles are capable of doing that.
I think maybe 5% of the NCAA Tournament viewing audience wants to hear the studio analysts talk about turnover rate or offensive efficiencies. Kenny is great at breaking down video. And regarding the topic we're talking about, 2 guys who played in the NBA, one of which is a Hall of Famer whose alma mater had a missed call go against his team in the Final Four, said himself that he had no idea they missed a double dribble. Which suggests the call wasn't some can't miss, obvious call.
I saw the ball go off his foot when dribbling. I didn't realize he used two hands to pick it up until I saw the replay.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 07, 2019, 04:26:16 PMI think maybe 5% of the NCAA Tournament viewing audience wants to hear the studio analysts talk about turnover rate or offensive efficiencies.
Kenny said in order to win, Virginia needed 5-6 more possessions than Auburn. That's not possible in regulation. I'm not talking about advanced stats, though that would be a massive improvement, but just being able to coherently and accurately talk about the basics of the game would be a huge improvement, something Smith & Barkley are incapable of doing.
i'll tell ya, charlie showed a ton of composure, coming onto the post game show. he openly admitted the foul was probably a foul(it was) but i don't recall what their opinions were of the double dribble. in any event, i was a little surprised he came on post game.
ok, the foul was a foul, but do they call it a foul consistently? itwould be nice if they did, but what drives me nuts is not calling something that is a focal point. for example, a guy putting a shot up or guys battling for the rebound. in other words, where the ball IS
ya know, i watch a lot of basketball. i don't get paid to call stuff, but i did miss the double dribble. in all fairness, the fact that auburn still had fouls left hurt them. what is also amazing is...they still had fouls left. you're gonna tell me that auburn did not commit 8 fouls in the 2nd half? m-kay
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 07, 2019, 05:41:57 PM
Kenny said in order to win, Virginia needed 5-6 more possessions than Auburn. That's not possible in regulation. I'm not talking about advanced stats, though that would be a massive improvement, but just being able to coherently and accurately talk about the basics of the game would be a huge improvement, something Smith & Barkley are incapable of doing.
You can get extra possessions (shots) by forcing turnovers and getting offensive rebounds.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 07, 2019, 06:29:54 PM
You can get extra possessions (shots) by forcing turnovers and getting offensive rebounds.
No. That's not how it works. An offensive rebound does not create an extra possession, it creates an existent possession. A turnover does not create an extra possession because the other team had the ball (and thus the possession) prior to the turnover. It is impossible to have 5-6 extra possessions in a regulation game as Smith suggested, and certainly not in a half, where the absolute maximum possession differential is 1.
Offensive rebounds do not create extra possessions. Fouls do not create extra possessions. Turnovers do not create extra possessions. That's not how the game works. It's not complicated. If he wants to talk about extending possessions, or creating additional scoring opportunities, that's fine, but it is a completely different thing than extra possessions. You could have 10 offensive rebounds on one sequence, 11 shots taken, but it's still one possessions. That's just how the game works. And it's not too much to ask that someone paid as much as Smith have a basic comprehension of that.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 07, 2019, 06:34:19 PM
No. That's not how it works. An offensive rebound does not create an extra possession, it creates an existent possession. A turnover does not create an extra possession because the other team had the ball (and thus the possession) prior to the turnover. It is impossible to have 5-6 extra possessions in a regulation game as Smith suggested, and certainly not in a half, where the absolute maximum possession differential is 1.
Offensive rebounds do not create extra possessions. Fouls do not create extra possessions. Turnovers do not create extra possessions. That's not how the game works. It's not complicated. If he wants to talk about extending possessions, or creating additional scoring opportunities, that's fine, but it is a completely different thing than extra possessions. You could have 10 offensive rebounds on one sequence, 11 shots taken, but it's still one possessions. That's just how the game works. And it's not too much to ask that someone paid as much as Smith have a basic comprehension of that.
It creates an existent possession? What? How can you create something that exists?
Again, there might have been 5% of the viewing audience that might have gotten disturbed about Kenny not using the proper terminology for statheads. The other 95% of the world heard him and had a basic understanding that he was saying one team needed to force more turnovers and grab more offensive rebounds.
Barkley makes basketball fun.
Quote from: WarriorDad on April 07, 2019, 06:47:41 PM
Barkley makes basketball fun.
absolutely! and he brings a credible perspective on that and a few other things
As a ref in those types of close games, I am looking to call the foul at the first contact because I don't want a game to get out of control because players think they have to mug the opponent to get a foul called.
As a coach in those types of games, I specifically tell the ref coming out of the time-out: "We are going to try to foul. Please call it so we don't have to hack the shyte out of a player."
The refs missed the Auburn foul, even though it was right out in the middle of the floor and it was obvious Auburn was going to foul. The refs then missed the double-dribble, which wasn't obvious to most observers in real time.
What they didn't miss was the foul on Guy's 3-point shot -- which as every replay from every angle shows was clearly a foul. It took guts to make that call.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 07, 2019, 06:44:01 PM
It creates an existent possession? What? How can you create something that exists?
Again, there might have been 5% of the viewing audience that might have gotten disturbed about Kenny not using the proper terminology for statheads. The other 95% of the world heard him and had a basic understanding that he was saying one team needed to force more turnovers and grab more offensive rebounds.
Its a vocabulary thing. In basketball a possession technically does not end until the other team possesses the ball. So an offensive rebound doesn't count as an extra possession, it simply extends the existing possession. I think the most correct thing for him to say would've been "take 5 or 6 more shots than auburn". That being said, I think most understood what he meant
Quote from: wadesworld on April 07, 2019, 06:44:01 PM
It creates an existent possession? What?
Continues, not creates. Autocorrect.
Quote from: WarriorDad on April 07, 2019, 06:47:41 PM
Barkley makes basketball fun.
I like Chuck! Wish he did color during the games.