MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: auburnmarquette on April 01, 2019, 12:33:53 AM
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With the fans here in Auburn greet the returning Final 4 team late tonight, I couldn't help remember how similar my arguments with Marquette fans who want to get rid of Wojo are to my discussions with AU fans two years ago.
At that point Pearl was 44-54 in his three years since returning from his suspension to coach Auburn, and like at Marquette now there was a vocal minority sure getting rid of him was the solution. As insane as I thought they were in pointing out what Pearl was putting in place and the obvious path he was on to win. The clammering got so loud he almost was fired and senior officials had to settle in for him. The idiots would have missed last year's sec regular season title which could have been a deep run except for a late season injury, but they keep complaining even after last season that the late season collapse and embarrassing blow out loss in the NCAA proved their point and Pearl couldn't win at Auburn. Sound familiar?
That being said, the Auburn anti-Pearl people at least had a much better case than the Marquette anti-Wojo people. There is no 44-54 start. Wojo is not in one of the 5 conferences or the old big East that could make the case to anyone to come here. He is at the school that buzz left because he didn't think he could win in the new big East and would win faster with a low tier acc team. Wojo came to the school that Bennet and others passed on and in compelling fashion said the difference between Marquette and Duke was that Duke kept stability for years. The critics ripped crean for apparently always looked at other openings, and now seem to want to chase away the coach that seems the opposite - and critics are ripping on him the year before he returns top 10 talent.
I'm glad the naysayers at Auburn failed, and hope the same mentality marquette that left us with 2 sweet 16s in 31 years loses out. I'll give Wojo 15 years - the program may not get off the mat again if Wojo is chased off.
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And for all the winers about losing badly against the second best player in the country in Ja - Auburn closed last season by losing to Alabama by 28 in their first sec tourney game, barely beating a Charleston team that was not in the top 100, then losing by 31 to Clemson in a game that wasn't nearly that close.
Clear proof just one year ago that Pearl could not win at Auburn, just like Ja proving Wojo can't coach.
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What about all the shenanigans off the court for Pearl and losing two assistant coaches while at Auburn after his own suspension? He's not going anywhere now unless the NCAA steps in again, but how do the fans down there view all that stuff?
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And for all the winers about losing badly against the second best player in the country in Ja - Auburn closed last season by losing to Alabama by 28 in their first sec tourney game, barely beating a Charleston team that was not in the top 100, then losing by 31 to Clemson in a game that wasn't nearly that close.
Clear proof just one year ago that Pearl could not win at Auburn, just like Ja proving Wojo can't coach.
Well, you cite all of this how the Anti Wojo people need to relax or whatever. Well I would point you to Chris Beard at Texas Tech..look at his trajectory in three years..it's absolutely perfect, and now I ask you, why the hell can't/couldn't that be done at MU?? That's what I was hoping for.
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Wojo is ta Pearl as apples are ta oranges, aina?
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Well, you cite all of this how the Anti Wojo people need to relax or whatever. Well I would point you to Chris Beard at Texas Tech..look at his trajectory in three years..it's absolutely perfect, and now I ask you, why the hell can't/couldn't that be done at MU?? That's what I was hoping for.
Again, because Chris Beard is a better coach than Wojo.
Wojo is ta Pearl as apples are ta oranges, aina?
Thank God for that.
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Again, because Chris Beard is a better coach than Wojo.
Thank God for that.
You hit the nail on the head...I think you made the anti Wojo crowds point with this. That's what I have been saying, so if he isn't that good(which he isn't), why do so many want him to stay??
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Wojo is ta Pearl as apples are ta oranges, aina?
One is clean, one is dirty
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You hit the nail on the head...I think you made the anti Wojo crowds point with this. That's what I have been saying, so if he isn't that good(which he isn't), why do so many want him to stay??
Because you don't fire a coach because he isn't as good as one of the best coaches in the game. That's just a recipe for spinning your wheels constantly. I would even say that peer comparisons don't matter at all. You set goals and objectives for the program, and if he meets them, all is good. And I think he has largely met them to date.
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Five years to judge a coach. Pearl is in his fifth year at Auburn and has his team in the Final Four. Wojo ain’t won stink in the same timeframe. He has a long leash at Marquette, but it can’t, and won’t, be 15 years long.
Also, being loyal to a school is different than staying because you haven’t gotten other job offers. The program will be fine if Wojo moves to a different job (hard to do when no one’s offering) or is chased off.
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Brother Bama's last point was the big one. If we chase off Wojo, where will our program be?
Personally, I like the guy. Yes, we choked and we have some work to do in the off-season, but I see his growth as a coach and as a leader and I'm optimistic about next year.
Probably Wojo's biggest liability was having a team that reached the Top 10 in the AP and was consistently a Top 25 team all season. Many of us who viewed this year as an opportunity to return to what we were in the 1970s were sadly disappointed or even angered by what happened at season's end. We discard the fact that we won some we should have lost and, late in the season, were all too quick to point out the losses we should have won.
We need coaching stability. We need tenure with our coaches and a chance for them to build on the success of this past year. Sure, our rebuilding period is over, but the next step is a consistent Top 10 team and we'll get there.
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Five years to judge a coach. Pearl is in his fifth year at Auburn and has his team in the Final Four. Wojo ain’t won stink in the same timeframe. He has a long leash at Marquette, but it can’t, and won’t, be 15 years long.
Also, being loyal to a school is different than staying because you haven’t gotten other job offers. The program will be fine if Wojo moves to a different job (hard to do when no one’s offering) or is chased off.
Pearl also had his associate head coach arrested and charged with corruption and bribery related to a recruiting scandal. Which could eventually vacate Auburn's Final Four appearance. And this was after he served a show-cause penalty for recruiting violations and lying to the NCAA.
I'd take Wojo in a second versus Pearl. Not even a difficult choice.
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Wojo is ta Pearl as apples are ta oranges, aina?
One secretly records teenagers, the other doesn't?
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Beard has built this roster heavily dependent on transfers and under the radar recruits. There is a huge luck component to getting a kid like Jarrett Culver. A Texas kid ranked in the 300s nationally. Two years later, Culver is a likely lottery pick.
Wojo is still trying to recover from a disappointing first class. Henry was too short lived to have much benefit. Anim has improved a lot but in year 4 he's the only major contributor from a 5 man class.
In 2017, Wojo missed out on Xavier Tillman and Jordan Nwora. Wojo has used transfers to fill holes but those players have mostly been role players or non-factors. As good as Rowsey was on offense, his defense paired with Howard largely offset that.
So Wojo has largely fielded teams with large holes. This year was his best team to date but Elliott's injury and Chartouny not working out left the backcourt thin. Hopefully McEwen and a healthy Elliott give MU a needed boost.
Next year's team starts with a much higher baseline than they did this year. Joey needs to make a leap. Bailey should improve, building off of 2 strong games at the end of BE play. Then McEwen and Elliott will determine if MU is a little better or a lot better.
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Bravo to the OP (and his second post, too). Superbly said.
Beard has built this roster heavily dependent on transfers and under the radar recruits. There is a huge luck component to getting a kid like Jarrett Culver. A Texas kid ranked in the 300s nationally. Two years later, Culver is a likely lottery pick.
Next year's team starts with a much higher baseline than they did this year. Joey needs to make a leap. Bailey should improve, building off of 2 strong games at the end of BE play. Then McEwen and Elliott will determine if MU is a little better or a lot better.
And two great points here, Lazar.
A program cannot build long-term, sustained success by running off coaches after only a few years, especially one whose team obviously is on an upward trend.
Glad MU brass is doing what any reasonable university leadership would be doing.
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I think the problem most are missing is..the MU program should never be so low(at least now) that seasons like this past are viewed as a success. They should in all reality be viewed as ok and/or a bit disappointing.
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I think the problem most are missing is..the MU program should never be so low(at least now) that seasons like this past are viewed as a success. They should in all reality be viewed as ok and/or a bit disappointing.
I think the problem that you are missing is..you don't fire a coach for a season that is "ok and/or a bit disappointing." Especially when that follows a season that is "unacceptable and/or better show some improvement next year."
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I think the problem most are missing is..the MU program should never be so low(at least now) that seasons like this past are viewed as a success. They should in all reality be viewed as ok and/or a bit disappointing.
You are biased. And that's OK, most fans are.
This past season is viewed as a "success" compared to the season before, the season before that and, frankly, the last season of his predecessor.
And for many of us, it also was "a bit disappointing."
They are not mutually exclusive, at least in my eyes. I view it as our program is going in the right direction, and our season was largely a success ... but I hated the way the season ended. And I will expect better next season.
Based on your past posts, you seem to view 2018-19 as anywhere from bad to mediocre to OK, and you consider it a major disappointment because of the way it ended. You obviously don't need permission from anybody else to have that view, but that doesn't mean your view is "right" and others' is "wrong."
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Yeah ultimately I want Wojo to be successful enough that he can start building on his own resume on the recruiting trail (which is why a BEast regular season title this year would have been huge), enough so that both we want him here and he wants to be here 10+ years out. This upcoming season is a major opportunity to break through and start a virtuous circle on the recruiting trail.
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You are biased. And that's OK, most fans are.
This past season is viewed as a "success" compared to the season before, the season before that and, frankly, the last season of his predecessor.
And for many of us, it also was "a bit disappointing."
They are not mutually exclusive, at least in my eyes. I view it as our program is going in the right direction, and our season was largely a success ... but I hated the way the season ended. And I will expect better next season.
Based on your past posts, you seem to view 2018-19 as anywhere from bad to mediocre to OK, and you consider it a major disappointment because of the way it ended. You obviously don't need permission from anybody else to have that view, but that doesn't mean your view is "right" and others' is "wrong."
Disappointing end to the season, no doubt. Team wore down, no doubt. Missing a crucial guard, no doubt.
But for anyone that was paying attention, this was not going to be a quick rebuild. To compare to a situation that was and where everything went right, is fine, but not complete. MU was not going to be built on transfers and jucos. That is not a nock on transfers or jucos, but this was going to be a process of bringing in student athletes and high schools at the core. The powers that be so the negatives and as hires often go, went the other direction with other directives. Student Athletes and a Team that is part of the University and not run as a fiefdom against the university.
We were able to supplement with some grad transfers, but this was never going to be a quick reload. That was made clear for those who paid attention.
Things are very much on track to exceeding expectations, except for a bad end to this season. I won't judge a whole re-make on a poor end to the season. That is how I see it and my guess is how the powers that matter at MU see it... We have a team that is part of the university again and represents the university well and is not in the news for the wrong reasons. Attorney Boyle isn't having to spend time around MU players (not that he was a good choice, when needed, anyway).
For me, this off season is important to see who is back, and assuming our team remains in tact, more or less, next year should be a fun one.
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You are biased. And that's OK, most fans are.
This past season is viewed as a "success" compared to the season before, the season before that and, frankly, the last season of his predecessor.
And for many of us, it also was "a bit disappointing."
They are not mutually exclusive, at least in my eyes. I view it as our program is going in the right direction, and our season was largely a success ... but I hated the way the season ended. And I will expect better next season.
Based on your past posts, you seem to view 2018-19 as anywhere from bad to mediocre to OK, and you consider it a major disappointment because of the way it ended. You obviously don't need permission from anybody else to have that view, but that doesn't mean your view is "right" and others' is "wrong."
I think you missed my point...There should be no "rebuilding" at Marquette anymore, to the point where Wojo's current trajectory is considered upwards. That's what chaps my A$$ more than anything else. I'm not saying Wojo is rebuilding, I'm just saying that again "rebuilding" should never happen at MU anymore. Period.
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I think you missed my point...There should be no "rebuilding" at Marquette anymore, to the point where Wojo's current trajectory is considered upwards. That's what chaps my A$$ more than anything else. I'm not saying Wojo is rebuilding, I'm just saying that again "rebuilding" should never happen at MU anymore. Period.
Rebuilding is exactly what would have to happen again if Wojo left.
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I think you missed my point...There should be no "rebuilding" at Marquette anymore, to the point where Wojo's current trajectory is considered upwards. That's what chaps my A$$ more than anything else. I'm not saying Wojo is rebuilding, I'm just saying that again "rebuilding" should never happen at MU anymore. Period.
It's fine if you believe that, but at least recognize that Marquette was "rebuilding" when Wojo arrived because of the situation he inherited from his predecessor.
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I think you missed my point...There should be no "rebuilding" at Marquette anymore, to the point where Wojo's current trajectory is considered upwards. That's what chaps my A$$ more than anything else. I'm not saying Wojo is rebuilding, I'm just saying that again "rebuilding" should never happen at MU anymore. Period.
Sports is full of highs and lows. UNC and Kentucky had down periods. Indiana and UCLA have had multiple rebuilds over the last 20 years. Virginia went 35 years between Final Four appearances.
What makes Marquette so special that it should never ever have a down period? Frankly, your attitude reeks of entitlement.
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It's fine if you believe that, but at least recognize that Marquette was "rebuilding" when Wojo arrived because of the situation he inherited from his predecessor.
And rebuilding in a different way, more like a remake. He has done his part, and exceeded it many of us, except for the end to the season. Disappointing end, no doubt. You can judge on that, I'll judge and the powers that be will judge on a much bigger picture.
Rebuild is over. Culture is back to what is expected by the powers that run things. That alone is a big deal to those in charge.
Barring major defections, we will have a solid to great team next year. So, to me, the off season is going to be really important.
Some here would have fired most of the current top coaches at some point, it seems. Does muguru apply this standard to his own success in life and those that work for him/her?
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Great OP and great posts all around.
I don’t see any reason to even consider firing Wojo. Unless people are cool with rebuilding and changing the path of the program. Then hey, another 3-4 years of “who knows” is what you’re into.
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And rebuilding in a different way, more like a remake. He has done his part, and exceeded it many of us, except for the end to the season. Disappointing end, no doubt. You can judge on that, I'll judge and the powers that be will judge on a much bigger picture.
Rebuild is over. Culture is back to what is expected by the powers that run things. That alone is a big deal to those in charge.
Barring major defections, we will have a solid to great team next year. So, to me, the off season is going to be really important.
Some here would have fired most of the current top coaches at some point, it seems. Does muguru apply this standard to his own success in life and those that work for him/her?
This guy gets it.
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Great OP and great posts all around.
I don’t see any reason to even consider firing Wojo. Unless people are cool with rebuilding and changing the path of the program. Then hey, another 3-4 years of “who knows” is what you’re into.
Everyone ASSUMES it would be a rebuild. I disagree..Sam would stay which means Joey would stay, and if Markus came back..You're set. Fill in the missing pieces with transfers and let's go.
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Everyone ASSUMES it would be a rebuild. I disagree..Sam would stay which means Joey would stay, and if Markus came back..You're set. Fill in the missing pieces with transfers and let's go.
It's a cool theory.
But Wojo isn't going anywhere, something you don't seem to want to accept.
Illogical, non-reality-based speculation is fun. In many ways, it's one of the big reasons these kinds of sites exist. But to go 'round and 'round (and 'round and 'round) about something that simply is not going to happen ... it gets exhausting.
We might as well speculate on how good we'll be if Few leaves Gonzaga for Marquette, retains all of our talent, brings over a few of his Zag studs (who get transfer-rule waivers and are allowed to play for us next season), and adds three 5-star recruits.
It's a blast to consider ... it would be really, really cool if Mark Few is our coach for 2019-20... but it's got as much chance of happening as Wojo being fired this offseason.
Zero-point-zero-zero percent.
I don't think Wojo should have been fired after this past season. You do. Cool! Reality: He will be our coach next season.
But sure, guru, speculate away!
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It's a cool theory.
But Wojo isn't going anywhere, something you don't seem to want to accept.
Illogical, non-reality-based speculation is fun. In many ways, it's one of the big reasons these kinds of sites exist. But to go 'round and 'round (and 'round and 'round) about something that simply is not going to happen ... it gets exhausting.
We might as well speculate on how good we'll be if Few leaves Gonzaga for Marquette, retains all of our talent, brings over a few of his Zag studs (who get transfer-rule waivers and are allowed to play for us next season), and adds three 5-star recruits.
It's a blast to consider ... it would be really, really cool if Mark Few is our coach for 2019-20... but it's got as much chance of happening as Wojo being fired this offseason.
Zero-point-zero-zero percent.
I don't think Wojo should have been fired after this past season. You do. Cool! Reality: He will be our coach next season.
But sure, guru, speculate away!
Well, I'm just tired of so many here thinking he's some coaching genius and needs to be kept at all costs. Newsflash...he's average, at best.
I'm curious MU82, though I already think I know your answer...with what is projected to be his best team at MU(we heard that this year too and how did that turn out) this coming year, what will be the MINIMUM achievement they could have before you would agree 100% he needs to be gone. I'm curious to know your answer(though I'm guessing, regardless you won't want him gone after next year either).
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Wee all bee judgin' and dat's hour write, since itz five years and such, aina?
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What about all the shenanigans off the court for Pearl and losing two assistant coaches while at Auburn after his own suspension? He's not going anywhere now unless the NCAA steps in again, but how do the fans down there view all that stuff?
It's the SEC: If you're not cheating you're not trying.
Amazing to think that in a game Cal coached he was not the dirtiest coach on the court.
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Well, I'm just tired of so many here thinking he's some coaching gfenius and needs to be kept at all costs. Newsflash...he's average, at best.
Nobody has actually said this, much less "so many here."
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Well, I'm just tired of so many here thinking he's some coaching gfenius and needs to be kept at all costs. Newsflash...he's average, at best.
I probably haven't read all these threads as closely as you, but I honestly don't recall seeing a single post arguing that Wojo is a coaching genius (or "gfenius" for that matter). Not one.
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Wee all bee judgin' and dat's hour write, since itz five years and such, aina?
Yes. Evaluation based on performance to date. Each year stands on its own.
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The whole premise of this thread ignores a significant and indisputable point, that is Pearl had big time success at two schools with little tradition of basketball success before Auburn!! Pearl came into Auburn with a very strong track record that should have earned many benefits of the doubt, especially early in his tenure.
What is Wojo’s track record of success prior to MU? Nothing, first shot at running his own program as we all well know. Coach K’s coaching tree has not been very strong either at churning out coaches with success at high D1 programs, further adding to skepticism of many.
Comparing patience that should be afforded he and Pearl is a ridiculous argument.
And while I’m very down myself on Wojo, I probably would not fire him this offseason. I’d give him one more chance with next year’s group, which hopefully returns intact.
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Nobody has actually said this, much less "so many here."
And yet you and so many others want to keep an average at best BB Coach at Marquette. If it's not because you think he's a great Coach, then it has to be because you all fear the unknown. You have no idea what a new Coach may or may not bring to the table, and you are all also deathly afraid of losing transfers.
1. If MU moved on from Wojo and they brought in an EXPERIENCED Head Coach, I'd bet large sums of $$ the results would be no worse than equal to, but most likely better then what Wojo's 5 years have been.
2. A New Coach does not guarantee a bunch of transfers. Besides, if the right one's stayed, it's not that big of a deal.
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Beard has built this roster heavily dependent on transfers and under the radar recruits. There is a huge luck component to getting a kid like Jarrett Culver. A Texas kid ranked in the 300s nationally. Two years later, Culver is a likely lottery pick.
I'm not so sure it's luck. Beard is a unicorn, sort of like the Zion of coaches. The kind of coach that comes around once in a generation or so. It's easy to call Culver a lucky find, but he was in the same recruiting class as Zhaire Smith, who was a kid in the 300s that Beard turned into a one-and-done first round pick. I can't think of many coaches who unearth talent like Beard has, can win with both his guys & the guys he inherits, he's just an amazing coach. It's easy to say "why can't we find a guy like Beard" but I'd say the simple answer is there really aren't any other guys like Chris Beard. Who even compares? Ollie? Does anyone want him (apparently not, he's unemployed)? Tubby's start at Kentucky with Pitino's guys? How is that working out for him at High Point?
Guys like that are really rare. Generally, you hire a coach, give them a few years to show they can have some sentinel moments (I'd argue our top-10 earlier this year is the best indicator of that) then hope they continue to grow into the role. Having looked deeper at title winning coaches of this generation, I believe the best way to go is to get a coach that has shown he can win already. Guys like K, Wright, Calhoun, & Pitino all cut their teeth at small schools, honed their sideline acumen, then went to larger jobs. The drawback to someone like Wojo is he is learning the sideline stuff on the job. If you are going to hire an assistant who's never been a head coach, it's going to take longer to develop a consistent winner.
Wojo has shown what he can develop and has shown he can spot talent. Watching guys like Coffey, Winston, Tillman, Nwora, French, and others we've offered, it's pretty clear they aren't throwing many scholarship offers to guys that can't play. He's shown that his offense and defense can work given the players. He's shown that he can elevate the program to the top-10. He's also shown that he clearly isn't a finished product and isn't among the basketball elite yet. Maybe he'll get there. Maybe he won't. But he's just getting to the point where he has the experience & roster makeup to show if he can.
If not, I'd look at someone who's shown they can win at a smaller program. Craig Smith at Utah State, Wes Miller at UNC Greensboro, maybe Wardle, or if you really want to shoot for the stars, Mike Hopkins at Washington. You can always hire assistants to recruit, but I would want a guy who's proven they can instill toughness & a winning culture.
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Well, I'm just tired of so many here thinking he's some coaching genius and needs to be kept at all costs. Newsflash...he's average, at best.
I'm curious MU82, though I already think I know your answer...with what is projected to be his best team at MU(we heard that this year too and how did that turn out) this coming year, what will be the MINIMUM achievement they could have before you would agree 100% he needs to be gone. I'm curious to know your answer(though I'm guessing, regardless you won't want him gone after next year either).
First, I do not know of a single Scooper, and certainly not me, who has ever said Wojo is "some coaching genius and needs to be kept at all costs." I appreciate hyperbole as much as the next guy, but that's hyperbole on speed with a coke chaser.
Second, guru, you already asked me that exact question in one of the Murray State postmortem threads, when you were really off your meds, and I already answered it. But here goes again ...
I said that barring some crazy-horrible circumstance (i.e, Sam or Markus suffers season-ending injury, and another key player transfers) I would expect Wojo to build upon the good work he has done. That means seriously contending for the conference title, making the NCAAs and being competitive in the tournament. I also would be disappointed if he doesn't seal the deal on several top recruits (including Torrence).
You have some incorrect idea of where I stand on Wojo. I don't know him, I have no relationship with him, and I don't think he is a coaching genius. If he can't do the job, I want my alma mater to bring in a coach who can. So far, he has shown me that he is capable of recruiting well, improving as a coach and making our program very competitive. And his trajectory (I know you hate that word) has been positive. When that stops, I will have no problem with bringing somebody else in.
Like so many others here, I am as big a Warrior fan as you are, but I also am a pretty realistic guy. Newsflash, guru ... We aren't getting Bennett, Pitino or Sampson.
You seem to think that proven high-major winners (who aren't weighed down by a ton of baggage) would be clamoring for this job if Wojo were fired.
Well, when Buzz left, two coaches with significant high-major experience all but begged for the job -- Bob Howland and Cuonzo Martin. I'm glad we didn't hire either of them. Like 95% of the others here, I was hoping we'd get Shaka, but Mrs. Boy Wonder said no and he has gone on to show that his mid-major cred didn't mean much at a good P6 school. Danny Manning also was mentioned after a decent run at Tulsa. You have referred to our outcomes under Wojo as "unmitigated disasters"; well, my friend, Danny Manning actually has been an unmitigated disaster at Wake Forest.
You have waxed poetic about Beard, but I have a feeling that you and others who skew negative 'round these parts won't be overly pleased if we go for some guy from an Arkansas-Little Rock-type school in the future. Nobody knew Beard was "some coaching genius" 3 years ago.
It's hard getting to the Final Four, and I congratulate Beard and the others. As fine a coach as Buzz is, he hasn't gotten there in 11 seasons as a head coach. It took Wright 15 years to get there. It took Beilein 20 years to get there. Huggins got there fairly early; he's been back only once since in 26 years. Bobby Knight -- pretty good coach -- was 0-for-his-last-15. Izzo was an assistant for 12 years before he was even given a chance at the top job. And so on and so on and so on.
So if we're measuring excellence by Final Fours, there is a long list of coaches who were/are/have been unsuccessful for a long time.
Meanwhile, mediocrities like Moser, Ollie and Crean got to the Final Four ... putting the "crap" in crapshoot. One could argue Shaka hasn't been at a much higher level and he got to one, too.
If Tom Crean can coach a team into the Final Four, Wojo can as well. Talk about damning with faint praise.
And if it's determined he can't ... see ya! I'd have absolutely no problem giving him the heave-ho.
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If MU moved on from Wojo and they brought in an EXPERIENCED Head Coach, I'd bet large sums of $$ the results would be no worse than equal to, but most likely better then what Wojo's 5 years have been.
And again, Marquette isn't moving on from Wojo, so this "bet" will never be made.
Lots of Scoopers love to throw out hypotheticals, claiming they know exactly what would happen in each such situation, but you are the king of that crowd.
This kind of hypothetical situation can't be proven (or disproven) because it isn't going to happen. Sorry, but I try to deal with known knowns rather than unknown unknowns.
You are free to continue to wager on things that will not happen, though.
Hell, I'd bet large sums of money that if you ever go to Mars, you would still be criticizing whoever is coaching Marquette.
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We’re comparing Wojo to Pearl now? Didn’t pearl win GLCV coach of year twice, horizon coach of the year 3 times and SEC coach of year once...prior to your conversation? Plus it’s auburn, a football school, they should be happy to have a coach of his caliber. If Marquette is truly a top 30 then the the conversation of firing Wojo is valid. Shouldn’t we have higher standards? Team is soft.
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We’re comparing Wojo to Pearl now? Didn’t pearl win GLCV coach of year twice, horizon coach of the year 3 times and SEC coach of year once...prior to your conversation? Plus it’s auburn, a football school, they should be happy to have a coach of his caliber. If Marquette is truly a top 30 then the the conversation of firing Wojo is valid. Shouldn’t we have higher standards? Team is soft.
Any school that has a coach other than the Bruce Pearl-types automatically has higher standards.
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First, I do not know of a single Scooper, and certainly not me, who has ever said Wojo is "some coaching genius and needs to be kept at all costs." I appreciate hyperbole as much as the next guy, but that's hyperbole on speed with a coke chaser.
Second, guru, you already asked me that exact question in one of the Murray State postmortem threads, when you were really off your meds, and I already answered it. But here goes again ...
I said that barring some crazy-horrible circumstance (i.e, Sam or Markus suffers season-ending injury, and another key player transfers) I would expect Wojo to build upon the good work he has done. That means seriously contending for the conference title, making the NCAAs and being competitive in the tournament. I also would be disappointed if he doesn't seal the deal on several top recruits (including Torrence).
You have some incorrect idea of where I stand on Wojo. I don't know him, I have no relationship with him, and I don't think he is a coaching genius. If he can't do the job, I want my alma mater to bring in a coach who can. So far, he has shown me that he is capable of recruiting well, improving as a coach and making our program very competitive. And his trajectory (I know you hate that word) has been positive. When that stops, I will have no problem with bringing somebody else in.
Like so many others here, I am as big a Warrior fan as you are, but I also am a pretty realistic guy. Newsflash, guru ... We aren't getting Bennett, Pitino or Sampson.
You seem to think that proven high-major winners (who aren't weighed down by a ton of baggage) would be clamoring for this job if Wojo were fired.
Well, when Buzz left, two coaches with significant high-major experience all but begged for the job -- Bob Howland and Cuonzo Martin. I'm glad we didn't hire either of them. Like 95% of the others here, I was hoping we'd get Shaka, but Mrs. Boy Wonder said no and he has gone on to show that his mid-major cred didn't mean much at a good P6 school. Danny Manning also was mentioned after a decent run at Tulsa. You have referred to our outcomes under Wojo as "unmitigated disasters"; well, my friend, Danny Manning actually has been an unmitigated disaster at Wake Forest.
You have waxed poetic about Beard, but I have a feeling that you and others who skew negative 'round these parts won't be overly pleased if we go for some guy from an Arkansas-Little Rock-type school in the future. Nobody knew Beard was "some coaching genius" 3 years ago.
It's hard getting to the Final Four, and I congratulate Beard and the others. As fine a coach as Buzz is, he hasn't gotten there in 11 seasons as a head coach. It took Wright 15 years to get there. It took Beilein 20 years to get there. Huggins got there fairly early; he's been back only once since in 26 years. Bobby Knight -- pretty good coach -- was 0-for-his-last-15. Izzo was an assistant for 12 years before he was even given a chance at the top job. And so on and so on and so on.
So if we're measuring excellence by Final Fours, there is a long list of coaches who were/are/have been unsuccessful for a long time.
Meanwhile, mediocrities like Moser, Ollie and Crean got to the Final Four ... putting the "crap" in crapshoot. One could argue Shaka hasn't been at a much higher level and he got to one, too.
If Tom Crean can coach a team into the Final Four, Wojo can as well. Talk about damning with faint praise.
And if it's determined he can't ... see ya! I'd have absolutely no problem giving him the heave-ho.
The above bolded...in the first part shows that you(and I think several others would agree with you) have terribly low standards/expectations. That's ALL you expect/want from Wojo and this program?? And that's ALL it would take for you to let him keep his job?? Honestly...that makes me sad, that that's how low your expectations are.
The second above bolded part...Making the MU program, COMPETITIVE?? That's it?? What is MU a low major?? Or hell are they DePaul?? Being competitive...is for low major programs(like DePaul) who don't have very high expectations, or haven't even had winning records in years. That too is very sad that you feel that way.
Also...maybe you didn't know this but back when Crean left, Rick Barnes was VERY interested in the MU job. Then again, MU was a much better job back then(better conference, had more success etc), then it is now...that's what saddens me more then anything...thinking about where it was in the not so distant past...and to where it's at now.
As far as my expectations go..yes, I have stated I want them to become Elite, but more than anything win one more National Championship in my lifetime...that being said, you HAVE to get to the tournament(and win when you do get there) in order for that to be possible...so for now, I'd settle for MU just making the tournament every year, and take my chances from there. Yet, that seems to be a struggle for them...Now, I'm sure some would say "making the tourney every year is not being realistic". Not if your DePaul it's not, or not if you are in a conference where your only way in is the auto bid every year, or if your Dayton or someone like that. MU is NOT any of those programs and the standards should be higher. Make the tournament every year...others do it(see Gonzaga, see UW(I just threw up a little bit), save for one year since 2000). ZERO reason MU can't do that.
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We’re comparing Wojo to Pearl now? Didn’t pearl win GLCV coach of year twice, horizon coach of the year 3 times and SEC coach of year once...prior to your conversation? Plus it’s auburn, a football school, they should be happy to have a coach of his caliber. If Marquette is truly a top 30 then the the conversation of firing Wojo is valid. Shouldn’t we have higher standards? Team is soft.
I'd like to think Marquette has higher standards than hiring someone of Bruce Pearl's character.
If you wish to be a win-at-all-costs type, that's your choice. But please understand that Marquette's board of trustees does not share your vision, and likely never will. If that's terribly upsetting to you, it could be time to consider why you choose to be a Marquette fan.
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The above bolded...in the first part shows that you(and I think several others would agree with you) have terribly low standards/expectations. That's ALL you expect/want from Wojo and this program?? And that's ALL it would take for you to let him keep his job?? Honestly...that makes me sad, that that's how low your expectations are.
The second above bolded part...Making the MU program, COMPETITIVE?? That's it?? What is MU a low major?? Or hell are they DePaul?? Being competitive...is for low major programs(like DePaul) who don't have very high expectations, or haven't even had winning records in years. That too is very sad that you feel that way.
You don't become a blue blood overnight. Villanova didn't. Duke didn't. Michigan State didn't. UConn didn't. It takes time, and time requires patience. There's no Samantha to wiggle her nose and turn the Marquette program back to the 1970s. Even in our earlier success this century it took years. Crean got us the big moment, but we stepped back to the NIT the two years after & it was years before we were winning a conference title & going to the second weekend of the tournament. If people thought the trajectory from Crean to Buzz was so great, why did they think we would immediately pick up at that point when the whole thing was torn down and rebuilt again?
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The above bolded...in the first part shows that you(and I think several others would agree with you) have terribly low standards/expectations. That's ALL you expect/want from Wojo and this program?? And that's ALL it would take for you to let him keep his job?? Honestly...that makes me sad, that that's how low your expectations are.
The second above bolded part...Making the MU program, COMPETITIVE?? That's it?? What is MU a low major?? Or hell are they DePaul?? Being competitive...is for low major programs(like DePaul) who don't have very high expectations, or haven't even had winning records in years. That too is very sad that you feel that way.
Also...maybe you didn't know this but back when Crean left, Rick Barnes was VERY interested in the MU job. Then again, MU was a much better job back then(better conference, had more success etc), then it is now...that's what saddens me more then anything...thinking about where it was in the not so distant past...and to where it's at now.
As far as my expectations go..yes, I have stated I want them to become Elite, but more than anything win one more National Championship in my lifetime...that being said, you HAVE to get to the tournament(and win when you do get there) in order for that to be possible...so for now, I'd settle for MU just making the tournament every year, and take my chances from there. Yet, that seems to be a struggle for them...Now, I'm sure some would say "making the tourney every year is not being realistic". Not if your DePaul it's not, or not if you are in a conference where your only way in is the auto bid every year, or if your Dayton or someone like that. MU is NOT any of those programs and the standards should be higher. Make the tournament every year...others do it(see Gonzaga, see UW(I just threw up a little bit), save for one year since 2000). ZERO reason MU can't do that.
Uh. That's literally what MU82 said as well.
You don't read 95% of the posts you respond to.
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Uh. That's literally what MU82 said as well.
You don't read 95% of the posts you respond to.
Apparently, you just take slams at me for NO apparent reason, because you want to and WITHOUT reading what he said...this is what he said...I said that barring some crazy-horrible circumstance (i.e, Sam or Markus suffers season-ending injury, and another key player transfers) I would expect Wojo to build upon the good work he has done. That means seriously contending for the conference title, making the NCAAs and being competitive in the tournament. I also would be disappointed if he doesn't seal the deal on several top recruits (including Torrence).
That was in response to my question of what it would take for him to want Wojo gone after next year...his making the NCAA's was strictly in response to that question...NO where did he say, make the NCAA's EVERY year going forward...NOWHERE...but nice try jes.
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Apparently, you just take slams at me for NO apparent reason, because you want to and WITHOUT reading what he said...this is what he said...I said that barring some crazy-horrible circumstance (i.e, Sam or Markus suffers season-ending injury, and another key player transfers) I would expect Wojo to build upon the good work he has done. That means seriously contending for the conference title, making the NCAAs and being competitive in the tournament. I also would be disappointed if he doesn't seal the deal on several top recruits (including Torrence).
That was in response to my question of what it would take for him to want Wojo gone after next year...his making the NCAA's was strictly in response to that question...NO where did he say, make the NCAA's EVERY year going forward...NOWHERE...but nice try jes.
Yes, I think Marquette should make the NCAAs every year, although I allow for one-offs in which it might not happen. For example, I would not have advocated for Buzz to be fired after Year 6, nor would I have advocated for Crean to be fired after the 2003-04 season, nor would I have advocated for K, Cal, Knight, etc, to be fired in the odd years they didn't make the tournament. But yes, generally speaking, I think we should be the kind of program that makes the NCAAs every year.
You didn't ask me about that, though. You asked me about next year, and I answered it ... for the second time ... and then you accused me of not answering a question you didn't ask.
You are exhausting, guru.
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I probably haven't read all these threads as closely as you, but I honestly don't recall seeing a single post arguing that Wojo is a coaching genius (or "gfenius" for that matter). Not one.
This is true. But there are a ton resigned to some idea that losing him would consistute everyone leaving and another need for a rebuild - which is highly in accurate.
Just because the last coaching hire was followed by a complete rebuild does not mean the next one will be. The one before Wojo wasn’t. Many programs are quickly back up running wothin a year or two. This premise that the choice is Keep Wojo or Fall off a Cliff is false.
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Yes, I think Marquette should make the NCAAs every year, although I allow for one-offs in which it might not happen. For example, I would not have advocated for Buzz to be fired after Year 6, nor would I have advocated for Crean to be fired after the 2003-04 season, nor would I have advocated for K, Cal, Knight, etc, to be fired in the odd years they didn't make the tournament. But yes, generally speaking, I think we should be the kind of program that makes the NCAAs every year.
You didn't ask me about that, though. You asked me about next year, and I answered it ... for the second time ... and then you accused me of not answering a question you didn't ask.
You are exhausting, guru.
Ummm MU 82, that was in response to jesmu accusing me of not reading your post, he said you stated you thought MU should make the NCAAs every year. That isn't what you said, nor did i ask that. I was pointing it out to jes because he was needlessly slamming me for accusing me of NOT reading something that YOU said, when you never said that...and that's what I pointed out.
He was putting words in your mouth, and I was defending you. Pardon me.
I would also allow for a "one off" of missing the tournament, but that depends on the circumstances of the season(major injuries etc etc). Crean and Buzz had both accomplished enough to that point IMO, that I wasn't happy about it, but gave them some leeway for not making it, Wojo hasn't earned that leeway from me...yet.
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Yes, I think Marquette should make the NCAAs every year, although I allow for one-offs in which it might not happen. For example, I would not have advocated for Buzz to be fired after Year 6, nor would I have advocated for Crean to be fired after the 2003-04 season, nor would I have advocated for K, Cal, Knight, etc, to be fired in the odd years they didn't make the tournament. But yes, generally speaking, I think we should be the kind of program that makes the NCAAs every year.
This is kind of where I stand on the issue. Marquette should make the tournament almost every year. I'm not sure where I would draw the line for the occasional "one-off" but I'd say that they should be making the tournament 8 or 9 years out of 10. More than that, they should be playing in the second weekend in half of those (at least). And if they can do that, I figure they'd make EE and FF a couple times a decade.
I would love to see MU win a championship, and I really hope it happens. But, if they could reach what I've described above, I would be very happy. I do agree that winning the tournament -- or even going to the FF -- is a bit of a "crap shoot" as some have said. But, for a program of Marquette's caliber, winning on the opening weekend of the tournament should be pretty consistent.
Regarding our current situation, I feel like Wojo is "on the clock" and I want to see him getting to this level. Over the past three seasons, he's got 2 NCAA appearances and 1 season that I hope was a "one-off." They need to make it out of the opening round next year, and I'd really like to see them playing on the second weekend.
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This is true. But there are a ton resigned to some idea that losing him would consistute everyone leaving and another need for a rebuild - which is highly in accurate.
Just because the last coaching hire was followed by a complete rebuild does not mean the next one will be. The one before Wojo wasn’t. Many programs are quickly back up running wothin a year or two. This premise that the choice is Keep Wojo or Fall off a Cliff is false.
I agree with you almost completely. However, I kind of think that being "back up and running within a year or two" is kind of the definition of a rebuild. At least a minor rebuild. Particularly when, on paper, next year looks quite strong.
I don't love Wojo. My heart would not be broken if he chose to leave. But I also don't happen to think he should be fired. That said, I have pretty high expectations for next season.
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This is true. But there are a ton resigned to some idea that losing him would consistute everyone leaving and another need for a rebuild - which is highly in accurate.
Just because the last coaching hire was followed by a complete rebuild does not mean the next one will be. The one before Wojo wasn’t. Many programs are quickly back up running wothin a year or two. This premise that the choice is Keep Wojo or Fall off a Cliff is false.
Augie totally nailed it, and that's what so many are afraid of I think....that if Wojo left, there would be a total rebuild..which is total BS...it all depends on the Coach they brought in...what they also fail to realize is that even IF some players did transfer out...if you were getting a current sitting Head Coach, there very well could be transfers IN as well(players that said Coach recruited to his previous school), and in that instance, of course depending on who left/ and who transferred in, you could very well end up with better players then the one's that left. That was another problem hiring Wojo who had no Head Coaching experience, there were no players transferring in from the school he was a Head Coach for previously. That's a big reason why MU started with a cupboard so bare when Wojo was hired, they didn't hire a current sitting Head Coach which usually yields players coming with said Coach.
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I agree with you almost completely. However, I kind of think that being "back up and running within a year or two" is kind of the definition of a rebuild. At least a minor rebuild. Particularly when, on paper, next year looks quite strong.
I don't love Wojo. My heart would not be broken if he chose to leave. But I also don't happen to think he should be fired. That said, I have pretty high expectations for next season.
Okay but...if you are using the hypothetical that Wojo left/was fired now that it would affect next year drastically, would it?? Again, I'd say it would have A LOT to do with who they hire. Look at Alabama...they had like 4 key players enter their name into the transfer portal, and that was before Oats was announced. One has already said now that he will be back, and I wouldn't be surprised if one or two more followed his lead.
Second...again consider...depending on who the Coach is...as long as he was hired away from somewhere where he was a current Head Coach, there would likely be transfers IN to MU, in which case, depending on who left, you could end up with a better player anyway.
Finally, let's use your scenario...who transfers?? For my money...Sam wouldn't(he'd be a Senior, wouldn't make any sense), the same goes for Markus(unless he went pro, which if he decided to, he'd likely do regardless of who the Coach was), and if Sam didn't go, Joey wouldn't either. If you kept those 3...that's a hell of a way to start...Id argue anyone else could be replaced with a transfer of equal or greater talent. I don't see where in that scenario MU would be "rebuilding" at all.
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Okay but...if you are using the hypothetical that Wojo left/was fired now that it would affect next year drastically, would it?? Again, I'd say it would have A LOT to do with who they hire. Look at Alabama...they had like 4 key players enter their name into the transfer portal, and that was before Oats was announced. One has already said now that he will be back, and I wouldn't be surprised if one or two more followed his lead.
Second...again consider...depending on who the Coach is...as long as he was hired away from somewhere where he was a current Head Coach, there would likely be transfers IN to MU, in which case, depending on who left, you could end up with a better player anyway.
Finally, let's use your scenario...who transfers?? For my money...Sam wouldn't(he'd be a Senior, wouldn't make any sense), the same goes for Markus(unless he went pro, which if he decided to, he'd likely do regardless of who the Coach was), and if Sam didn't go, Joey wouldn't either. If you kept those 3...that's a hell of a way to start...Id argue anyone else could be replaced with a transfer of equal or greater talent. I don't see where in that scenario MU would be "rebuilding" at all.
I don't disagree. I have not proclaimed that there would be doom and gloom next year if Wojo left. That said, I honestly don't know who would leave. You're assuming that there would be people transferring in (who couldn't play next year, btw) to follow the new coach. Maybe true. Maybe not. Also maybe true that there would be people transferring out to follow Wojo. Also, maybe not.
The reason I think MU shouldn't fire Wojo is that I think overall the team had a pretty good year (better than I expected in some respects) with a horrific ending and I think the program is heading in the right direction. As I mentioned in another post, the way I'm looking at it is that we're currently 2 of 3 getting into the NCAA with a "one-off" last season. As long as the team lives up to what I would expect (i.e., tournament almost every year and second weekend (at least) at least half of those times), I'm good.
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This is kind of where I stand on the issue. Marquette should make the tournament almost every year. I'm not sure where I would draw the line for the occasional "one-off" but I'd say that they should be making the tournament 8 or 9 years out of 10. More than that, they should be playing in the second weekend in half of those (at least). And if they can do that, I figure they'd make EE and FF a couple times a decade.
What exactly makes Marquette the level of a program that this should be expected of by any of it's head coaches?
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What exactly makes Marquette the level of a program that this should be expected of by any of it's head coaches?
Mostly, my hopes and dreams, honestly. Wishful thinking.
That said, Marquette invests very heavily in basketball. If they're going to invest as much as they do, I think they should be chasing results somewhere in that range. If they have a coach that isn't getting them there, they should try again. I think that if MU isn't going to "expect" that level of performance from its basketball program, they're wasting a hell of a lot of money.
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What exactly makes Marquette the level of a program that this should be expected of by any of it's head coaches?
Gonzaga does it, Wisconsin has done it(save for last year)...Cincinnati does it...I'm talking about making the tourney every year...is MU not on those program's level(or better)?? if not, there are MAJOR MAJOR issues.
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Augie totally nailed it, and that's what so many are afraid of I think....that if Wojo left, there would be a total rebuild..which is total BS...it all depends on the Coach they brought in...what they also fail to realize is that even IF some players did transfer out...if you were getting a current sitting Head Coach, there very well could be transfers IN as well(players that said Coach recruited to his previous school), and in that instance, of course depending on who left/ and who transferred in, you could very well end up with better players then the one's that left. That was another problem hiring Wojo who had no Head Coaching experience, there were no players transferring in from the school he was a Head Coach for previously. That's a big reason why MU started with a cupboard so bare when Wojo was hired, they didn't hire a current sitting Head Coach which usually yields players coming with said Coach.
At the same time, this is backup quarterback syndrome. You are assuming the new guy will do better at retaining Wojo's guys than Wojo did at building a base after Buzz. Maybe that happens, but maybe Markus goes pro, Ed & Sacar grad transfer, Theo & Jamal take the traditional transfer route, & we're left waiting a year to find out if Joey declares for the draft when Sam graduates.
The safe assumption when a coach leaves is that his players leave with him for two reasons. First, as we saw with Wojo, the majority of guys did that (even many that initially committed to staying). Second, more often than not the new coach is going to want his own guys anyway. Maybe they'll retain and win with some of the old guard, but they will target freshmen & transfers that fit their style.
The only reason I don't want Wojo to go at this point is because I think we saw enough in the first three months of this year to indicate he might be able to succeed long term. I'd like to see him get another crack with this roster and a more full complement of guards to see if he can translate what were three months of incredibly successful results to a full season of the same. If he left, I'd be fine with that, but I don't think we're at the forcing him out point yet.
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I'd like to think Marquette has higher standards than hiring someone of Bruce Pearl's character.
If you wish to be a win-at-all-costs type, that's your choice. But please understand that Marquette's board of trustees does not share your vision, and likely never will. If that's terribly upsetting to you, it could be time to consider why you choose to be a Marquette fan.
Really? What did pearl do, have a BBQ with some high school kids? Is that worse than what happened under buzz? He wasn’t dismissed. And fans can act like Buzz was pushed out, but no way Marquette was getting rid of him. Besides, talking auburn fans off the edge had everything to do with being 45-54 after 3 seasons. I’d be more wiling to stick with a coach that went 145-61 at Tennessee than someone who assisted Coach K. That’s what I was saying. I hope I’m wrong, but I don’t see Wojo being successful.
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At the same time, this is backup quarterback syndrome. You are assuming the new guy will do better at retaining Wojo's guys than Wojo did at building a base after Buzz. Maybe that happens, but maybe Markus goes pro, Ed & Sacar grad transfer, Theo & Jamal take the traditional transfer route, & we're left waiting a year to find out if Joey declares for the draft when Sam graduates.
The safe assumption when a coach leaves is that his players leave with him for two reasons. First, as we saw with Wojo, the majority of guys did that (even many that initially committed to staying). Second, more often than not the new coach is going to want his own guys anyway. Maybe they'll retain and win with some of the old guard, but they will target freshmen & transfers that fit their style.
The only reason I don't want Wojo to go at this point is because I think we saw enough in the first three months of this year to indicate he might be able to succeed long term. I'd like to see him get another crack with this roster and a more full complement of guards to see if he can translate what were three months of incredibly successful results to a full season of the same. If he left, I'd be fine with that, but I don't think we're at the forcing him out point yet.
But you also have to agree Brew that the new guy COULD very easily bring players with him that were committed to him at his old school..that's a HUGE benefit of hiring a sitting coach. I will give an EXAMPLE(and people it is ONLY an example)...Let's say MU is looking for a new Coach and they decide to hire Bryce Drew(again, ONLY an example, not someone I want), and along with Bryce comes Darius Garland(again JUST an example) are we then really going to fret over a Jamal Cain and Sacar Anim transfer?? I sure as hell wouldn't.
In a lot of instances it's possible under these scenarios, you gain better players then you are losing...It's a lot like trading in pro sports, or signing someone in Free agency. Under this cenario, why should there be a step back?? If you are getting a better player or two(with the Coach), that you are losing??
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But you also have to agree Brew that the new guy COULD very easily bring players with him that were committed to him at his old school..that's a HUGE benefit of hiring a sitting coach. I will give an EXAMPLE(and people it is ONLY an example)...Let's say MU is looking for a new Coach and they decide to hire Bryce Drew(again, ONLY an example, not someone I want), and along with Bryce comes Darius Garland(again JUST an example) are we then really going to fret over a Jamal Cain and Sacar Anim transfer?? I sure as hell wouldn't.
Darius Garland is probably going to the NBA. Certainly wouldn't expect him to follow Drew here.
Hypothetically, yes, we could hire a coach that does what Buzz did for Va Tech. But of his lauded 2014 recruiting class, he wasn't able to bring Cohen, he lost out on Shayok (as did we), and only brought Hill & Pierce to Va Tech. The only player of that class with meaningful value in Va Tech's future success was Hill.
Honestly, I don't care a lot about what players a coach brings with him. I don't care if they bring any players with them. I'm concerned with long-term results. I care more about what happens 10-15 years from now than I do what happens 0-5 years from now because all I really care about is a National Championship, and I don't think any new coach is going to come in and get one of those in the next 5 years. I want someone who can coach & recruit. And I want someone that will build a culture of winning, because having the kind of program that is a staple in the NCAA Tournament, gets to the occasional Final Four, & can be a viable National Championship contender takes a strong culture & years and years (and years and years and years) of consistency. It's programs like Duke, like Villanova, like Michigan State, like North Carolina, like Kentucky, like Kansas that I envy. It's programs like Purdue, Florida State, Notre Dame & Michigan that are closest to that. Why? Because they get a guy in there and let them develop a winning culture. They let them keep going despite the occasional missed tournament.
I think the difference between us is mostly patience. We want the same results, but you seem to think they can happen now. Then some unicorn like Chris Beard comes along and convinces you everyone can do it. If everyone could be Chris Beard, or Brad Stevens, or Tom Izzo, why are those stories so few & far between? The best programs get there by developing a culture & letting it grow over a generation. That's the reality of the situation.
I want nothing more than a National Championship, and honestly, any season where we don't win a National Championship is, in my eyes, a failure. Sure, you can take positives from failed seasons, but ultimately there is only one goal that matters, and that's winning a National Championship. And as that usually takes coaches years to do, you have to be willing to wait years for that result. I'm willing to wait because it's the only result worth waiting for.
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Darius Garland is probably going to the NBA. Certainly wouldn't expect him to follow Drew here.
Hypothetically, yes, we could hire a coach that does what Buzz did for Va Tech. But of his lauded 2014 recruiting class, he wasn't able to bring Cohen, he lost out on Shayok (as did we), and only brought Hill & Pierce to Va Tech. The only player of that class with meaningful value in Va Tech's future success was Hill.
Honestly, I don't care a lot about what players a coach brings with him. I don't care if they bring any players with them. I'm concerned with long-term results. I care more about what happens 10-15 years from now than I do what happens 0-5 years from now because all I really care about is a National Championship, and I don't think any new coach is going to come in and get one of those in the next 5 years. I want someone who can coach & recruit. And I want someone that will build a culture of winning, because having the kind of program that is a staple in the NCAA Tournament, gets to the occasional Final Four, & can be a viable National Championship contender takes a strong culture & years and years (and years and years and years) of consistency. It's programs like Duke, like Villanova, like Michigan State, like North Carolina, like Kentucky, like Kansas that I envy. It's programs like Purdue, Florida State, Notre Dame & Michigan that are closest to that. Why? Because they get a guy in there and let them develop a winning culture. They let them keep going despite the occasional missed tournament.
I think the difference between us is mostly patience. We want the same results, but you seem to think they can happen now. Then some unicorn like Chris Beard comes along and convinces you everyone can do it. If everyone could be Chris Beard, or Brad Stevens, or Tom Izzo, why are those stories so few & far between? The best programs get there by developing a culture & letting it grow over a generation. That's the reality of the situation.
I want nothing more than a National Championship, and honestly, any season where we don't win a National Championship is, in my eyes, a failure. Sure, you can take positives from failed seasons, but ultimately there is only one goal that matters, and that's winning a National Championship. And as that usually takes coaches years to do, you have to be willing to wait years for that result. I'm willing to wait because it's the only result worth waiting for.
You're right Brew, you and I are on EXACTLY the same page...I like that because I have a lot of respect for your posts etc. And you are again right...you are more patient..but I have news for you...I have ZERO patience for anything...I hate even waiting in any kind of line. I live my life "in a hurry". That's not the way it's supposed to be, I know, but it's the way i'm wired. Whatever i am "waiting" for, I want to get done with ASAP so I can get on to the next thing I want to do.
Further you are also younger than me, you have more time to wait..If I had one more National Championship I would have reached my "pinnacle" of sports fandom. Plus, and yes, some of it is to see Badger fans squirm and be forever pissed off..but in reality it's because I do LOVE MU hoops, and want to reach the top..I don't care how they get there(obviously without breaking rules), I just want it...badly. I prefer they do it ASAP so I KNOW for certain it will happen. the longer it takes, the less time I have left to wait. Make sense??
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I am in favor of charging certain Scoop posters by the word.
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I am in favor of charging certain Scoop posters by the word.
Haha
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Ummm MU 82, that was in response to jesmu accusing me of not reading your post, he said you stated you thought MU should make the NCAAs every year. That isn't what you said, nor did i ask that.
I apologize. Sometimes these things end up being like the old "telephone game."
As for you again going the hypothetical route if Wojo were to get fired now (he won't) and if he were to get replaced by Coach X, that new coach would bring in transfers to make up for whoever leaves.
OK ... I'm game ...
Markus loves Wojo and Stan; they go so he leaves to start his pro career in Europe or wherever. Sam stays to play one more season with Joey, but Joey has already decided that he won't stay more than one more year unless that year is fantastic. Morrow and Sacar grad-transfer. Theo and Bailey transfer, possibly to wherever Wojo and/or Stan land. Symir decommits. Yes, some transfers follow Coach X, but they have to sit out a year.
So for 2019-20, we are left with an unhappy Sam, an unhappy Joey, Koby, Akanno, Ike (if healthy) and leftover recruits who haven't already signed with anybody, probably 2-stars and 3-stars, and a few walk-ons. (Remember, the administration doesn't want to bring in a bunch of jucos.) Maybe Bailey didn't transfer because he's old, but that's still one weak team.
So what was to be our best season since Buzz Year 5 is a wasted year.
Then, in 2020-21, we have no Sam and no Joey (who is disillusioned to the max and has no brotherly reason to stay so he transfers or goes pro), so unless Coach X is an amazing recruiter -- better at getting 4-star and 5-star talent to Marquette than any coach since Al -- we'll be mediocre at best again.
And then if we're only OK (or worse) again the following year, which is a distinct possibility, you'll be calling for Coach X's head.
Wow, you're right guru, Hypothetical Silliness is fun!
Obviously, that's an extreme example of the bad that could happen. It probably wouldn't be that bad. Maybe it would be all seashells and balloons like you say.
But you know what ... Wojo ain't getting fired before next season ... so again ... silliness.
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I apologize. Sometimes these things end up being like the old "telephone game."
As for you again going the hypothetical route if Wojo were to get fired now (he won't) and if he were to get replaced by Coach X, that new coach would bring in transfers to make up for whoever leaves.
OK ... I'm game ...
Markus loves Wojo and Stan; they go so he leaves to start his pro career in Europe or wherever. Sam stays to play one more season with Joey, but Joey has already decided that he won't stay more than one more year unless that year is fantastic. Morrow and Sacar grad-transfer. Theo and Bailey transfer, possibly to wherever Wojo and/or Stan land. Symir decommits. Yes, some transfers follow Coach X, but they have to sit out a year.
So for 2019-20, we are left with an unhappy Sam, an unhappy Joey, Koby, Akanno, Ike (if healthy) and leftover recruits who haven't already signed with anybody, probably 2-stars and 3-stars, and a few walk-ons. (Remember, the administration doesn't want to bring in a bunch of jucos.) Maybe Bailey didn't transfer because he's old, but that's still one weak team.
So what was to be our best season since Buzz Year 5 is a wasted year.
Then, in 2020-21, we have no Sam and no Joey (who is disillusioned to the max and has no brotherly reason to stay so he transfers or goes pro), so unless Coach X is an amazing recruiter -- better at getting 4-star and 5-star talent to Marquette than any coach since Al -- we'll be mediocre at best again.
And then if we're only OK (or worse) again the following year, which is a distinct possibility, you'll be calling for Coach X's head.
Wow, you're right guru, Hypothetical Silliness is fun!
Obviously, that's an extreme example of the bad that could happen. It probably wouldn't be that bad. Maybe it would be all seashells and balloons like you say.
But you know what ... Wojo ain't getting fired before next season ... so again ... silliness.
He ain't getting fired...you're right, but what if he leaves on his own(also not likely...but more likely than him getting fired)?? And you are also dismissing the fact that the players that come along with Coach X could be much, much better then any of the holdovers are. So in that scenario...you have them four years now, maybe you don't miss a beat...maybe you do. Then consider what if Coach X was recruiting grad transfers or other transfers to his old place, and they then to follow him to MU?? It could happen..Then how bad off are you?? My point is MU82..years do NOT have to be "rebuild" years...they just don't if it's done right and some chips fall properly.
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If Wojo is going to leave in the next 4 years, this would probably be the most ideal year for it to happen. I agree with those who have said that most players would likely stay, and it would give the new coach a year with a full roster to establish himself and start recruiting.
That being said it no matta because unless one of the big boys comes calling with a fat paycheck, Wojo ain't going anywhere.
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He ain't getting fired...you're right, but what if he leaves on his own(also not likely...but more likely than him getting fired)?? And you are also dismissing the fact that the players that come along with Coach X could be much, much better then any of the holdovers are. So in that scenario...you have them four years now, maybe you don't miss a beat...maybe you do. Then consider what if Coach X was recruiting grad transfers or other transfers to his old place, and they then to follow him to MU?? It could happen..Then how bad off are you?? My point is MU82..years do NOT have to be "rebuild" years...they just don't if it's done right and some chips fall properly.
I don't care what anybody sez, guru, you're fun!
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Sorry to redirect back to Bruce Pearl and Auburn but Teddy Greenstein at the Trib defending Pearl.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/ct-spt-defending-bruce-pearl-auburn-final-four-20190401-story.html
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Sorry to redirect back to Bruce Pearl and Auburn but Teddy Greenstein at the Trib defending Pearl.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/ct-spt-defending-bruce-pearl-auburn-final-four-20190401-story.html
That'll go over like a lead balloon in the state of Illinois. :o
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Wojo is ta Pearl as apples are ta oranges, aina?
TC is a red delicious.
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TC is a red delicious.
Dude. You brilliant SOB. That was one of the best conversations ever.
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TC is a red delicious.
Orange delicious.
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And for all the winers about losing badly against the second best player in the country in Ja - Auburn closed last season by losing to Alabama by 28 in their first sec tourney game, barely beating a Charleston team that was not in the top 100, then losing by 31 to Clemson in a game that wasn't nearly that close.
Clear proof just one year ago that Pearl could not win at Auburn, just like Ja proving Wojo can't coach.
Agreed, we cannot definitively say anything about Wojo Right now, especially that he is not the right guy for the job. The talent level coming back and the 2020 recruiting class will tell the tale. The picture will be much clearer next year. The risks of firing him now or having him leave on his own are much greater than giving him another year to see if there will be accelerated progress.