MUScoop

Too much beating around the bush and hypothetical around the the Wojo retention issue.

If it was your decision should MU fire Wojo now or retain him.

Slurpers and Haters here is the chance to express your view.

Herman, enjoy your stuff.  You have said you want Wojo gone, Stan to take over. You also said the other day Wojo throws kids under the bus.  You may be right, but are there examples of this?

Nsh... after all he has the program trending upward, as shown by the stretch run. And he should not be fired, because he runs a clean program, and because his first 5 years at MU was better than Coach ks and Wrights. And because we would have to go  through another rebuild. Snd because we are deathly afraid that we could not find another good coach because nobody would come after firing a 5 seed. And because Wojo has the Duke pedigree. And because we will be real good next year.
And because our resources are not good enough to attract a big time guy. For all these reasons and many more we should retain mediocrity and really, really hope that we will dance deep next year.

Quote from: willie warrior on March 24, 2019, 07:34:36 PM
Nsh... after all he has the program trending upward, as shown by the stretch run. And he should not be fired, because he runs a clean program, and because his first 5 years at MU was better than Coach ks and Wrights. And because we would have to go  through another rebuild. Snd because we are deathly afraid that we could not find another good coach because nobody would come after firing a 5 seed. And because Wojo has the Duke pedigree. And because we will be real good next year.
And because our resources are not good enough to attract a big time guy. For all these reasons and many more we should retain mediocrity and really, really hope that we will dance deep next year.

Hmmmm. Still better than bleacher report.

Quote from: Cheeks on March 24, 2019, 06:48:01 PM
Herman, enjoy your stuff.  You have said you want Wojo gone, Stan to take over. You also said the other day Wojo throws kids under the bus.  You may be right, but are there examples of this?

Really?  Wasn't Herman the guy that made up BS about a recruiting visit and then got called out by Big Daddy?  I guess you guys just run in the same circles.

Quote from: avid1010 on March 24, 2019, 07:57:47 PM
Really?  Wasn't Herman the guy that made up BS about a recruiting visit and then got called out by Big Daddy?  I guess you guys just run in the same circles.

I would think throwing someone under the bus, which is normally a public thing, would be easy to quantify.  I may have missed it and that is why I am asking.

Not happy, but I think Marcus was a bit more injured than we know down the stretch, so a reprieve.

Quote from: Cheeks on March 24, 2019, 06:48:01 PM
Herman, enjoy your stuff.  You have said you want Wojo gone, Stan to take over. You also said the other day Wojo throws kids under the bus.  You may be right, but are there examples of this?

Ners/Floorslapper has written many treatises on the bus subject .  I would collegiality refer you to those for more detail. To save time I will stipulate in advance that I fully agree with those treatises.

I just want to be on record as voting to keep Wojo.

I also think the posters here asking for his firing are hurting recruiting.

I was torn about which bad choice to make.

What the hell has Stan done? I have no idea on the love affair some on here have about him. If he was a top guy, he would be getting courted by decent programs.

Quote from: Herman Cain on March 24, 2019, 08:15:47 PM
Ners/Floorslapper has written many treatises on the bus subject .  I would collegiality refer you to those for more detail. To save time I will stipulate in advance that I fully agree with those treatises.

I honestly don't recall them, but not sure Ners would be my go to for information on MU's current team situation....but he can dunk the crap out of a ball in high school I hear.

Quote from: Goose on March 24, 2019, 08:22:46 PM
What the hell has Stan done? I have no idea on the love affair some on here have about him. If he was a top guy, he would be getting courted by decent programs.

Good recruiter, has a great background story coming over from Liberia.  Former player, wonderful communicator.  I like Stan a lot, but would be hesitant to give the reigns to him. You bring up a good point, but he was mentioned for Fresno State job last year and perhaps others?

Quote from: connie on March 24, 2019, 08:11:40 PM
Not happy, but I think Marcus was a bit more injured than we know down the stretch, so a reprieve.

Others said that, along with Sam's hip and the true more significant injury reports would come out after season.  Still waiting. 

Cheeks
I know his resume, but the hell has he done? Who is knocking down his door at the moment. And we have guys on here wanting to give him the keys. I give up!!

Quote from: Goose on March 24, 2019, 08:32:19 PM
Cheeks
I know his resume, but the hell has he done? Who is knocking down his door at the moment. And we have guys on here wanting to give him the keys. I give up!!

You're in on Tony Bennett, Kelvin Sampson, and...I forget who the third guy on the list was.

Maybe you should give up if that's who you start your list at. Those guys will never be the coach of Marquette.

Future SAT question :
Crean is to Buzz as Wojo is to :____
A. Stan
B. Etc
C. Etc

Quote from: wadesworld on March 24, 2019, 08:48:35 PM
You're in on Tony Bennett, Kelvin Sampson, and...I forget who the third guy on the list was.

Maybe you should give up if that's who you start your list at. Those guys will never be the coach of Marquette.

Sigh. Ok, fine then, Coach K.

Interesting results. I guess we have a vocal minority.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 24, 2019, 10:56:10 PM
Interesting results. I guess we have a vocal minority.

Some might even call that a blowout

Quote from: Herman Cain on March 24, 2019, 09:08:54 PM
Future SAT question :
Crean is to Buzz as Wojo is to :____
A. Stan
B. Etc
C. Etc

Is Lori Laughlin hiring someone to take this for me?

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 24, 2019, 10:56:10 PM
Interesting results. I guess we have a vocal minority.

I voted keep.

That said, I have major concerns on Wojo and I am pessimistic he will do anything of note here. I'm sure others that voted that way share similar doubts.

Quote from: Goose on March 24, 2019, 08:32:19 PM
Cheeks
I know his resume, but the hell has he done? Who is knocking down his door at the moment. And we have guys on here wanting to give him the keys. I give up!!

Stan might end up being a fine option. I'd rather see him prove it in the Mountain West, MVC, or anywhere else first. I know Buzz was Crean's assistant, but that was a unique situation & he wasn't the first choice anyway.

Quote from: RJax55 on March 24, 2019, 11:04:42 PM
I voted keep.

That said, I have major concerns on Wojo and I am pessimistic he will do anything of note here. I'm sure others that voted that way share similar doubts.

Yep and yep.

Quote from: Eldon on March 25, 2019, 12:17:58 AM
Yep and yep.

Fair and reasoned and agree.

I also voted keep, as long as trajectory is north then I am good, but doesn't mean he is locked in forever.  For those that want him gone, I need a more solid plan than simply "I deserve better and he needs to go because I have season tickets".  Who are you hiring and why are they coming here, why will they do better.  Sell me on it.

Keep letting him see a full recruiting class through. If haanif Tracy and Henry (on top of Anim and Heldt) were all still seniors this year and we had worse results I'd say fire.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 24, 2019, 10:56:10 PM
Interesting results. I guess we have a vocal minority.

In combat it is far more critical to know when to release than to press.

The same goes for strategic decision making in business. Staying the course is easy; charting a new direction is inherently difficult because of the uncertainty. But fear of the unknown is hardly a reason for not dealing with a problem.

It is time, people. At a visceral level we know Wojo is not the right guy. Wojo needs to go.

The BoT made a "safe" choice - the anti-Buzzard. It was the wrong choice.

What chaps my ass is that Hopkins was one of the finalists when the BoT hired Wojo. Hopkins is now building something special but it's not in Milwaukee.

Quote from: Cheeks on March 24, 2019, 06:48:01 PM
Herman, enjoy your stuff.  You have said you want Wojo gone, Stan to take over. You also said the other day Wojo throws kids under the bus.  You may be right, but are there examples of this?

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=51574.msg830759#msg830759

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=52652.msg873231#msg873231

Quote from: Eldon on March 25, 2019, 07:47:30 AM
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=51574.msg830759#msg830759

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=52652.msg873231#msg873231

So no?  Just a couple of examples of yourself reading too much into things without having any intimate details?

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 24, 2019, 10:56:10 PM
Interesting results. I guess we have a vocal minority.

Blowhard minority you might say...

I vote to keep Wojo and lower expectations.

He is coaching with one hand tied behind his back.
He recruits and coaches with the players the BOT wants to represent the University.
The selection criteria for players is obvious and athleticism is not a top priority.
So the ball is in Wojo's court, coach the new Marquette style or leave the small Big East, and try to become a NCAA tournament winner.

My take, purely unsubstantiated, is that after his team and he left their heart and soul on the Madison Square Garden floor and was not backed up, in public, by the athletic department and the insulated BOT, he made a decision, screw the Big East.

If memory serves, Buzz said in public the same thing.

Oh, and what's wrong with being a mid-major and having some fun?  Good luck to SJ's, G.T, and S.H., they get it.

Quote from: vogue65 on March 25, 2019, 08:07:31 AM
I vote to keep Wojo and lower expectations.

He is coaching with one hand tied behind his back.
He recruits and coaches with the players the BOT wants to represent the University.
The selection criteria for players is obvious and athleticism is not a top priority.
So the ball is in Wojo's court, coach the new Marquette style or leave the small Big East, and try to become a NCAA tournament winner.

My take, purely unsubstantiated, is that after his team and he left their heart and soul on the Madison Square Garden floor and was not backed up, in public, by the athletic department and the insulated BOT, he made a decision, screw the Big East.

If memory serves, Buzz said in public the same thing.

Oh, and what's wrong with being a mid-major and having some fun?  Good luck to SJ's, G.T, and S.H., they get it.

(https://media.tenor.com/images/f6e591b276573a54e6af074165f27d3b/tenor.gif)

Quote from: Bocephys on March 25, 2019, 08:10:34 AM
(https://media.tenor.com/images/f6e591b276573a54e6af074165f27d3b/tenor.gif)

The non verbal response.  Must be a millenial.

Quote from: Jon on March 25, 2019, 04:12:27 AM
In combat it is far more critical to know when to release than to press.

The same goes for strategic decision making in business. Staying the course is easy; charting a new direction is inherently difficult because of the uncertainty. But fear of the unknown is hardly a reason for not dealing with a problem.

It is time, people. At a visceral level we know Wojo is not the right guy. Wojo needs to go.

The BoT made a "safe" choice - the anti-Buzzard. It was the wrong choice.

What chaps my ass is that Hopkins was one of the finalists when the BoT hired Wojo. Hopkins is now building something special but it's not in Milwaukee.

Don't say we know anything because all you are offering is an opinion and it differs from others.

Some time staying the course is the easy choice. Some times it is not, especially when there are many screaming and making threats to try and force change.

We'll see about Hopkins. You keep raving about him but his top 6 guys in a 7 man rotation are all Romar recruits. 5 are set to graduate and one is appearing in mock drafts as an early 2nd rounder. Let's see how he does once Romar's recruits are gone. It's certainly possible that he should have been the choice. A first round win with another coach's players are not enough to convince me.

Quote from: vogue65 on March 25, 2019, 08:22:36 AM
The non verbal response.  Must be a millenial.

^^ Ban dis guy for personal attacks ^^

Quote from: RJax55 on March 24, 2019, 11:04:42 PM
I voted keep.

That said, I have major concerns on Wojo and I am pessimistic he will do anything of note here. I'm sure others that voted that way share similar doubts.

Agreed.  They had a team that was ranked much of the season, including two stints in the top 10.  They're losing very little production to graduation.  I'm on board with giving him a chance to coach this team next year...but the expectations/standard should be pretty high.  They'd better be playing on the second weekend.

Quote from: Bocephys on March 25, 2019, 08:28:45 AM
^^ Ban dis guy for personal attacks ^^

Glad to see you can use words.  Since when is being refered to as a millenial a personal attack?
Is being refered to as a post war babby boomer a personal attack?

Why would people want to blow up a team that loses nothing next year, adds ballhandlers (a key driver of the late-season decline) and gains a year of experience across the board?  Yes, this season has made it clear that Wojo is still learning, but MU is not a place that can attract top-tier finished-product coaches.  Tony Bennett wasn't interested last time, and that type of coach won't be this time around.  Any MU coach will be an unfinished product.  I think we can all agree that next year's roster will be his strongest.  Let's see how that plays out.  Patience through the early years can result in loyalty as a coach develops into a sought-after name. 

Quote from: Jon on March 25, 2019, 04:12:27 AM
In combat it is far more critical to know when to release than to press.

The same goes for strategic decision making in business. Staying the course is easy; charting a new direction is inherently difficult because of the uncertainty. But fear of the unknown is hardly a reason for not dealing with a problem.

It is time, people. At a visceral level we know Wojo is not the right guy. Wojo needs to go.

The BoT made a "safe" choice - the anti-Buzzard. It was the wrong choice.

What chaps my ass is that Hopkins was one of the finalists when the BoT hired Wojo. Hopkins is now building something special but it's not in Milwaukee.

Staying the course is often the most difficult thing to do, especially if the results aren't what you want.  Strongly disagree with you. 

The question is whether staying the course is the correct strategy, but saying it is easy doesn't make it so.  This is exactly why people use the Coach K analogy where staying the course was the tough decision, Duke fans wanted him fired, but the AD stayed the course and it worked out.  The easy decision would be to appease the fans, he didn't...the rest is history.

Whether Hopkins is building something special or not only time will tell.

Quote from: Eldon on March 25, 2019, 07:47:30 AM
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=51574.msg830759#msg830759

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=52652.msg873231#msg873231

Ok, anything more recent than 2016?

He had every opportunity to throw guys under the bus over the last month and chose to shield the players from blame, to many posters' dismay.  After this season, there is no logical argument that he throws players under the bus. 

Quote from: 21rooster on March 25, 2019, 09:19:05 AM
He had every opportunity to throw guys under the bus over the last month and chose to shield the players from blame, to many posters' dismay.  After this season, there is no logical argument that he throws players under the bus.

Yup, he defended each time and said this is on me.  At least publicly, and that's where bus throwing happens.  In house discussions are a totally different matter where accountability to each other is key.

The basketball teams under Wojo have met my personal expectations every year.   Those expectations are based on my assessment of the relative talent of the players and the schedule.    And Wojo has run a clean program for the last 5 years.     Hard to run a coach with 3 20 win seasons in 5 years without a whiff of scandal.

My concerns are as I have stated before.    I have not seen magic/alchemy from him.    I have yet to see him make a team better than the sum of its parts.    What makes that worse is that I have not yet seen him get a team without significant weaknesses.    A team that has Duke-like talent doesn't HAVE to be more than the sum of its parts.    A team without that kind of talent does.   

This year, MU put out a team with:   one true guard, who had to play the point, though his skill set is that of a SG, but not the size.
A SG who was a decent but not all world defender, and erratic offensively
Two brothers at forward who had decent size, but were lacking speed. (IMO, partially due to rehabbing injuries.   Neither is a blazer, but I think they will be quicker next year.)
A second year 6'9 center who discovered blocking shots is fun, with a developing offensive game.
A grad transfer guard who flopped, leaving little guard depth or options.
A 6'6 back up center.
A freshman forward with two years of rust on his jump shot who did a lot of things right, except for the one thing he was noted for coming out of high school two years ago.
A sophomore forward who did not progress from his freshman year. 
Matt Heldt.

The team accomplished all it could with that particular set of talent and circumstances. 

I miss the Buzz alchemy.   I miss having a coach turn a weakness into a virtue.    I miss the teams playing with a chip on their shoulder and punching above their weight.     But that ship has sailed.   

I like about 70% of Wojo.   I like the recruiting.   I like how he represents Marquette.   I want that last 30%.    I want him to grow as a game coach.    I want him to find creative uses for his entire roster.    I want a 11 man rotation, not a Duke-like 7 man rotation. 


I still think he can get there.   

Quote from: vogue65 on March 25, 2019, 09:04:03 AM
Glad to see you can use words.  Since when is being refered to as a millenial a personal attack?
Is being refered to as a post war babby boomer a personal attack?

Sure, if you're clever about it and I obtained any sense of self worth from what someone decided to arbitrarily label the years in which my parents did the nasty. 

Instead, this was all I saw:
(https://media.tenor.com/images/6006221645cd35feca85d058d0345875/tenor.gif)

Quote from: tower912 on March 25, 2019, 09:48:53 AM
The basketball teams under Wojo have met my personal expectations every year.   Those expectations are based on my assessment of the relative talent of the players and the schedule.    And Wojo has run a clean program for the last 5 years.     Hard to run a coach with 3 20 win seasons in 5 years without a whiff of scandal.

My concerns are as I have stated before.    I have not seen magic/alchemy from him.    I have yet to see him make a team better than the sum of its parts.    What makes that worse is that I have not yet seen him get a team without significant weaknesses.    A team that has Duke-like talent doesn't HAVE to be more than the sum of its parts.    A team without that kind of talent does.   

This year, MU put out a team with:   one true guard, who had to play the point, though his skill set is that of a SG, but not the size.
A SG who was a decent but not all world defender, and erratic offensively
Two brothers at forward who had decent size, but were lacking speed. (IMO, partially due to rehabbing injuries.   Neither is a blazer, but I think they will be quicker next year.)
A second year 6'9 center who discovered blocking shots is fun, with a developing offensive game.
A grad transfer guard who flopped, leaving little guard depth or options.
A 6'6 back up center.
A freshman forward with two years of rust on his jump shot who did a lot of things right, except for the one thing he was noted for coming out of high school two years ago.
A sophomore forward who did not progress from his freshman year. 
Matt Heldt.

The team accomplished all it could with that particular set of talent and circumstances. 

I miss the Buzz alchemy.   I miss having a coach turn a weakness into a virtue.    I miss the teams playing with a chip on their shoulder and punching above their weight.     But that ship has sailed.   

I like about 70% of Wojo.   I like the recruiting.   I like how he represents Marquette.   I want that last 30%.    I want him to grow as a game coach.    I want him to find creative uses for his entire roster.    I want a 11 man rotation, not a Duke-like 7 man rotation. 


I still think he can get there.

You like the recruiting but your breakdown of the roster is an indictment of it.

I get the idea that he hasn't brought the magic that Buzz did, and I hope he eventually becomes a coach that gets more than the sum of the parts.  But I think part of that is his vision for the program.  He knew that Elliott could contribute this year, so the short-term approach would've to burn a year of eligibility just in case. In retrospect (given Howard's hand and Chartouny), it might have been good to have Elliott available.  It probably would have helped in negotiating a better contract for himself.  At the time, though, he was making a decision that he thought was best for the long-term trajectory of the program.  I'm not sure the same approach was taken with Buzz, and thus we were left with the roster from Buzz's last year.  When the emphasis  is on following his mentor's footsteps and building something sustainable, we don't always get the instant gratification that fits well with internet message boards. 

Quote from: 21rooster on March 25, 2019, 10:07:50 AM
I get the idea that he hasn't brought the magic that Buzz did, and I hope he eventually becomes a coach that gets more than the sum of the parts.  But I think part of that is his vision for the program.  He knew that Elliott could contribute this year, so the short-term approach would've to burn a year of eligibility just in case. In retrospect (given Howard's hand and Chartouny), it might have been good to have Elliott available.  It probably would have helped in negotiating a better contract for himself.  At the time, though, he was making a decision that he thought was best for the long-term trajectory of the program.  I'm not sure the same approach was taken with Buzz, and thus we were left with the roster from Buzz's last year.  When the emphasis  is on following his mentor's footsteps and building something sustainable, we don't always get the instant gratification that fits well with internet message boards.

Interesting argument.    Junior Cadougan vs Greg Elliott.      What about Duane, though?

Quote from: KampusFoods on March 25, 2019, 10:06:07 AM
You like the recruiting but your breakdown of the roster is an indictment of it.

I think a healthy Greg Elliott changes the calculus at guard.  He was good enough as a freshman playing one handed that there were those clamoring for him to start in place of Markus or Rowsey.  He averaged over 18 mpg.   With two good hands and assuming that Wojo was telling the truth that he was playing well enough to start before he was injured, how nice would it have been to have a 6'3 guard able to play 20 competent minutes a game?    I think Sam and Joey were still recovering from surgeries and were both a step slow from what they can be.   I think Brendan Bailey with a jump shot that went in during games would have changed overall line ups and rotation.    I accept that the offensive game of big men is a process.   

I thought that Wojo should have force fed Jamal and Matt more minutes early.    I think he shortened his rotation too soon.    But, just because I, a schmo on the internet, disagree with a rotational philosophy does not mean the man should be fired. 

Quote from: Goose on March 24, 2019, 08:22:46 PM
What the hell has Stan done? I have no idea on the love affair some on here have about him. If he was a top guy, he would be getting courted by decent programs.

It's the same love affair people have with untested backup quarterbacks.

I am not a Wojo fan and would prefer to have someone else.  He is a good recruiter and I think he does a good job of getting players to improve their overall game but he severely lacks in game coaching skills. Its those in game coaching skills that separate a good coach from a very good coach.

With Wojo, I think, we will have a solid program.  We will make NCAA tournaments more times than not.  We should finish at worst middle of the pack in the Big East.  I don't anticipate making any deep runs in any tournaments.  It takes good coaching chops to achieve those runs consistently.  I don't see us winning any Big East Tournaments and winning a conference title will be a rare occurrence that will depend on other Big East rosters more than our own. 

Wojo is only going to be as good as his recruiting takes him.  He doesn't know how to adjust to his roster or how to adjust to in game situations consistently.  It was obvious this year that we had a very talented roster when compared to other Big East teams.  He got us on a roll early on but everyone else adjusted and he did not.  We can make excuses about nagging or season ending injuries, lack of a point guard, or lack of athleticism or hero ball but isn't that on Wojo?  He constructed the roster.  He decided to only go 7 deep with heavy minutes.  He decided to give players free reign on shot selection. 

I think we are at a crossroads here.  Do we stay on our current path?  Do we think he can overcome his deficiencies?  Recruit better?  Or do we pull the trigger and hire a new coach knowing that we will need a few years to rebuild with no guarantee that there will be better success.  Its a tough call to make.   

It's interesting the expectations piece. He's more or less met expectations each year, but is it a problem that the expectations is bubble team in Year 3 and NIT in Year 4. I know there were some issues with the team he inherited.

It's great he meets expectations, but should we be at a point where the expectations are higher. After burning off some steam, I'm definitely in the keep Wojo camp. But I hope he's not sitting on a cool throne and there is a bit of heat on him.

Quote from: tower912 on March 25, 2019, 09:48:53 AM
The basketball teams under Wojo have met my personal expectations every year.   Those expectations are based on my assessment of the relative talent of the players and the schedule.    And Wojo has run a clean program for the last 5 years.     Hard to run a coach with 3 20 win seasons in 5 years without a whiff of scandal.

My concerns are as I have stated before.    I have not seen magic/alchemy from him.    I have yet to see him make a team better than the sum of its parts.    What makes that worse is that I have not yet seen him get a team without significant weaknesses.    A team that has Duke-like talent doesn't HAVE to be more than the sum of its parts.    A team without that kind of talent does.   

This year, MU put out a team with:   one true guard, who had to play the point, though his skill set is that of a SG, but not the size.
A SG who was a decent but not all world defender, and erratic offensively
Two brothers at forward who had decent size, but were lacking speed. (IMO, partially due to rehabbing injuries.   Neither is a blazer, but I think they will be quicker next year.)
A second year 6'9 center who discovered blocking shots is fun, with a developing offensive game.
A grad transfer guard who flopped, leaving little guard depth or options.
A 6'6 back up center.
A freshman forward with two years of rust on his jump shot who did a lot of things right, except for the one thing he was noted for coming out of high school two years ago.
A sophomore forward who did not progress from his freshman year. 
Matt Heldt.

The team accomplished all it could with that particular set of talent and circumstances. 

I miss the Buzz alchemy.   I miss having a coach turn a weakness into a virtue.    I miss the teams playing with a chip on their shoulder and punching above their weight.     But that ship has sailed.   

I like about 70% of Wojo.   I like the recruiting.   I like how he represents Marquette.   I want that last 30%.    I want him to grow as a game coach.    I want him to find creative uses for his entire roster.    I want a 11 man rotation, not a Duke-like 7 man rotation. 


I still think he can get there.

Very well said and exactly my thoughts.  Realizing over the last couple days I've overreacted as I had a hard time defending Wojo to friends that have been off his wagon for over a year now mostly due to his lack of in game adjustments.  I was fuming over the lack of adjustments against MSU and couldn't take it.  I'm about where you are tower.  That 30% in me that I don't like gets the best of me when I'm ready to move on but technically he met my expectations.  But man that lack of rising above deficiencies and in game adjustments just gets me fuming.  I'll hang on for another year and that's inevitable but man Wojo himself better improve because the talent of this team should've won the big east and should be in the sweet 16.

Tower
Great post.

Quote from: tower912 on March 25, 2019, 10:16:43 AM
I think a healthy Greg Elliott changes the calculus at guard.  He was good enough as a freshman playing one handed that there were those clamoring for him to start in place of Markus or Rowsey.  He averaged over 18 mpg.   With two good hands and assuming that Wojo was telling the truth that he was playing well enough to start before he was injured, how nice would it have been to have a 6'3 guard able to play 20 competent minutes a game?    I think Sam and Joey were still recovering from surgeries and were both a step slow from what they can be.   I think Brendan Bailey with a jump shot that went in during games would have changed overall line ups and rotation.    I accept that the offensive game of big men is a process.   

I thought that Wojo should have force fed Jamal and Matt more minutes early.    I think he shortened his rotation too soon.    But, just because I, a schmo on the internet, disagree with a rotational philosophy does not mean the man should be fired.

Agree 100% with this

Quote from: vogue65 on March 25, 2019, 09:04:03 AM
Glad to see you can use words.  Since when is being refered to as a millenial a personal attack?
Is being refered to as a post war babby boomer a personal attack?

Ageism.  There's no place for that here.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 25, 2019, 03:05:48 AM
Keep letting him see a full recruiting class through. If haanif Tracy and Henry (on top of Anim and Heldt) were all still seniors this year and we had worse results I'd say fire.

Imagine if we had them on the squad. Traci Carter alone would have been a welcomed addition this year.

Spot on, Tower.

I'll add that Wojo hasn't had a player who can make their teammates better.   Wade, Diener, James, even Cadougan with his timely passing, are all examples.

I'm hoping Symir Torrence can be that kind of player.  Someone that can breakdown a defense off the dribble.  Kick out to Joey for open 3's; feed Theo rolling to the rim for easy dunks; create a good look when the defense shuts down the scripted set play.

That kind of player will lead Marquette to even bigger success and make Wojo a better coach.

Quote from: Markusquette on March 25, 2019, 11:01:09 AM
Imagine if we had them on the squad. Traci Carter alone would have been a welcomed addition this year.

Traci didn't have a great year for LaSalle.  Stats nearly identical to his freshman year at Marquette.  A quicker, smaller, worse shooting Chartouny.

For those that have a strong twitter following, these survey results would be a pretty interesting share.  If you search #wojo, you would think our entire fan base is trying to run him out if town.  It turns out the silent 84% majority actually has a much more level-headed view...which is rather important given some of the recent speculation. 

I think everyone here wants the same thing. Namely, Marquette competing for and winning a second national title.

So is Wojo the right coach to get us there?

What winning coaches look like
NCAA appearances and high seeds aren't the end goal. But they are a key measure of progress and success along the way. It's worth considering that only 8 current Division I head coaches have won a national title:

Mike Krzyzewski (1991, 1992, 2001, 2010, 2015)
Roy Williams (2005, 2009, 2017)
Jay Wright (2016, 2018)
Jim Boeheim (2003)
John Calipari (2012)
Tom Izzo (2000)
Bill Self (2008)
Tubby Smith (1998)

On average, they won their first national championship in their 16th season as a head coach. It took Boeheim 27 years. Wright 22 years. Calipari 20 years. And all of them except Williams have had first-round exits from the NCAA tournament. Jay Wright, in fact, has lost in the first round 5 times. What they had in common up to that point was making the tournament often, and earning high seeds.

What winning programs look like
Here are the 11 Division I programs that have earned NCAA bids each of the past 3 seasons, while averaging better than a 5 seed:

North Carolina - 2017 (1 seed), 2018 (2), 2019 (1)
Duke - 2017 (2), 2018 (2), 2019 (1)
Gonzaga - 2017 (1), 2018 (4), 2019 (1)
Kansas - 2017 (1), 2018 (1), 2019 (4)
Virginia - 2017 (5), 2018 (1), 2019 (1)
Villanova - 2017 (1), 2018 (1), 2019 (6)
Kentucky - 2017 (2), 2018 (5), 2019 (2)
Purdue - 2017 (4), 2018 (2), 2019 (3)
Michigan - 2017 (7), 2018 (3), 2019 (2)
Florida St. - 2017 (3), 2018 (9), 2019 (4)
Michigan St. - 2017 (9), 2018 (3), 2019 (2)

Notice anything? Williams at NC, Coach K at Duke, Self at Kansas, Wright at Nova, Calipari at UK, Izzo at MSU. Six of the 8 coaches who've won a national title are on this list. What that tells me is NCAA appearances and seeding count. (And that Mark Few and Tony Bennett are the most likely candidates to celebrate their first national title).

What's that got to do with Wojo?
Obviously, MU isn't there yet. And honestly, chances are Wojo won't be a Hall of Fame coach like Coach K. However...

When you look at the records of successful coaches early in their careers -- not just one individual coach, but a broad cross-spectrum of them -- Wojo's first 5 seasons compare favorably. You might believe he should have accomplished more. But history suggests that not many coaches do.

To the argument about winning zero NCAA games, I call bulls**t. Hugely disappointing? Yes. Meaningful? Not likely. No statistician would call 2 NCAA games anything close to a reliable data set. It's 2 data points. How can you judge anything based on that, compared to a season's worth of games? With almost all of this team coming back, the bad loss to Murray State could motivate them even more for next season.

I believe Marquette isn't far from joining the ranks of those 11 programs listed above. Like many here, I have big concerns about how the season ended. But MU has still appeared in 2 of the past 3 NCAA tournaments and earned a better seed each time. If that progress continues next season (winning the Big East and earning a 3 seed or better), I'll feel even more confident that we're on the right path.

Keep Wojo.

I think the silent majority claim is being way overblown. While there's been a ton of frustration vented about Wojo, very few have insisted he should be fired. Most, even the most vocally frustrated have acknowledged he deserves at least another year

Quote from: 21rooster on March 25, 2019, 11:26:41 AM
For those that have a strong twitter following, these survey results would be a pretty interesting share.  If you search #wojo, you would think our entire fan base is trying to run him out if town.  It turns out the silent 84% majority actually has a much more level-headed view...which is rather important given some of the recent speculation.

Unfortunately that is the nature of Twitter.

Quote from: wadesworld on March 25, 2019, 10:57:09 AM
Ageism.  There's no place for that here.

Legally speaking ageism only works up. You must be over 40 years old in order to claim age discrimination. Legally, you can't claim you are being discriminated against for being young.

Tower and Marcus. Spot on. Summed up a lot of what I've been trying to say poorly for the past few days.

Quote from: Marcus92 on March 25, 2019, 11:31:06 AM
I think everyone here wants the same thing. Namely, Marquette competing for and winning a second national title.

So is Wojo the right coach to get us there?

What winning coaches look like
NCAA appearances and high seeds aren't the end goal. But they are a key measure of progress and success along the way. It's worth considering that only 8 current Division I head coaches have won a national title:

Mike Krzyzewski (1991, 1992, 2001, 2010, 2015)
Roy Williams (2005, 2009, 2017)
Jay Wright (2016, 2018)
Jim Boeheim (2003)
John Calipari (2012)
Tom Izzo (2000)
Bill Self (2008)
Tubby Smith (1998)

On average, they won their first national championship in their 16th season as a head coach. It took Boeheim 27 years. Wright 22 years. Calipari 20 years. And all of them except Williams have had first-round exits from the NCAA tournament. Jay Wright, in fact, has lost in the first round 5 times. What they had in common up to that point was making the tournament often, and earning high seeds.

What winning programs look like
Here are the 11 Division I programs that have earned NCAA bids each of the past 3 seasons, while averaging better than a 5 seed:

North Carolina - 2017 (1 seed), 2018 (2), 2019 (1)
Duke - 2017 (2), 2018 (2), 2019 (1)
Gonzaga - 2017 (1), 2018 (4), 2019 (1)
Kansas - 2017 (1), 2018 (1), 2019 (4)
Virginia - 2017 (5), 2018 (1), 2019 (1)
Villanova - 2017 (1), 2018 (1), 2019 (6)
Kentucky - 2017 (2), 2018 (5), 2019 (2)
Purdue - 2017 (4), 2018 (2), 2019 (3)
Michigan - 2017 (7), 2018 (3), 2019 (2)
Florida St. - 2017 (3), 2018 (9), 2019 (4)
Michigan St. - 2017 (9), 2018 (3), 2019 (2)

Notice anything? Williams at NC, Coach K at Duke, Self at Kansas, Wright at Nova, Calipari at UK, Izzo at MSU. Six of the 8 coaches who've won a national title are on this list. What that tells me is NCAA appearances and seeding count. (And that Mark Few and Tony Bennett are the most likely candidates to celebrate their first national title).

What's that got to do with Wojo?
Obviously, MU isn't there yet. And honestly, chances are Wojo won't be a Hall of Fame coach like Coach K. However...

When you look at the records of successful coaches early in their careers -- not just one individual coach, but a broad cross-spectrum of them -- Wojo's first 5 seasons compare favorably. You might believe he should have accomplished more. But history suggests that not many coaches do.

To the argument about winning zero NCAA games, I call bulls**t. Hugely disappointing? Yes. Meaningful? Not likely. No statistician would call 2 NCAA games anything close to a reliable data set. It's 2 data points. How can you judge anything based on that, compared to a season's worth of games? With almost all of this team coming back, the bad loss to Murray State could motivate them even more for next season.

I believe Marquette isn't far from joining the ranks of those 11 programs listed above. Like many here, I have big concerns about how the season ended. But MU has still appeared in 2 of the past 3 NCAA tournaments and earned a better seed each time. If that progress continues next season (winning the Big East and earning a 3 seed or better), I'll feel even more confident that we're on the right path.

Keep Wojo.

Wow.  Now that is a great post with backing and perspective. Thanks.   A nice counterbalance to the overly emotional entitled crowd.

I guess I'm just curious...a lot of you(us), were saying by year 5, that was the year to judge Wojo. This was his best team in his tenure by a wide margin, and they had an unprecedented collapse the last 7 games, and a blow out loss in the NCAA tourney to a mid major. I would certainly hope, that NO ONE would agree that that was okay, and a vast majority would have expected significantly more from a team that had the talent they did, and one that was ranked in the top 10 at one point during the season??

So let's fast forward..Now those same people that said "5 years is the benchmark for judging Wojo" are now saying "let's give him one more year yet because the team should be significantly better".  I know what's going to happen here...if Markus leaves, and there's a transfer or two for example, then people will give Wojo a pass and say "well this wasn't the team we all thought it would be before the season started".  If someone gets hurt and misses a few games, and it hurts the team during that stretch with losses, people will give Wojo a pass. Then 2020 will roll around, and Sam and Markus will be gone and everyone will give Wojo a pass because well "the expectations weren't as high losing those two". Rinse and repeat.

I see people blaming the late season collapse was due to Markus's hand injury. That's BS. He played with it, and it was his left hand, not his dominant hand. Did it have some effect?? Sure, it probably did. But it was far from the main reason the collapse happened.

Wojo is the Head Coach...it's his job to fix things that were wrong. Quite frankly he didn't. If Markus was hurt that badly, then you make adjustments accordingly. If that wasn't the reason for the collapse, then he should have known/figured out what it was and had it fixed by the second straight loss, and not wait until the end of the season to say "we'll evaluate that and try to figure out what happened".  He never fixed the problem of starting slowly at the beginning of games and most particularly second halves. It happened all the time. You could set your watch to it. Why wasn't that fixed?? Did he not see it as a problem or think it was a problem when everyone and their brother that followed the team saw that it was??

It's time to stop making excuses for him...you adapt and adjust if a player is hurt...the college BB landscape is filled every year with players that get hurt/injured and the Coaches adjust to what they have to work with.

Three examples(and there are many many more) right off the top of my head:

Va Tech-Was without Justin Robinson for a decent part of the second half of the season..They never had a collapse because of it(and Markus played with his injury...didn't miss any time).

Michigan State- They lost Joshua Langford for the season, they also lost Nick Ward for several games, Kyle Ahrens missed some games, and though they had some curious losses(2x Indiana, Illinois), they never had a collapse like MU did.

Oregon- They lost Bol Bol for well over half the season...they adjusted and are now in the Sweet 16 and one of the hottest teams in the country.

During the losing streak Wojo made the comment "every team goes through this at some point during a season, it's just a matter of when it happens". Sorry, but no they don't. How many other ranked teams most of the season lost 6 of their last 7 or hell lost 6-7 at any point during the year.

It's time for everyone to stop making excuses for him...and what it's really time for is the MU administration to want to be at the highest levels of CBB again, like Wild/Cords did. Stop being okay with mid major results. Just okay...is NOT okay.

Quote from: muguru on March 25, 2019, 06:56:37 PM
I guess I'm just curious...a lot of you(us), were saying by year 5, that was the year to judge Wojo. This was his best team in his tenure by a wide margin, and they had an unprecedented collapse the last 7 games, and a blow out loss in the NCAA tourney to a mid major. I would certainly hope, that NO ONE would agree that that was okay, and a vast majority would have expected significantly more from a team that had the talent they did, and one that was ranked in the top 10 at one point during the season??

So let's fast forward..Now those same people that said "5 years is the benchmark for judging Wojo" are now saying "let's give him one more year yet because the team should be significantly better".  I know what's going to happen here...if Markus leaves, and there's a transfer or two for example, then people will give Wojo a pass and say "well this wasn't the team we all thought it would be before the season started".  If someone gets hurt and misses a few games, and it hurts the team during that stretch with losses, people will give Wojo a pass. Then 2020 will roll around, and Sam and Markus will be gone and everyone will give Wojo a pass because well "the expectations weren't as high losing those two". Rinse and repeat.

I see people blaming the late season collapse was due to Markus's hand injury. That's BS. He played with it, and it was his left hand, not his dominant hand. Did it have some effect?? Sure, it probably did. But it was far from the main reason the collapse happened.

Wojo is the Head Coach...it's his job to fix things that were wrong. Quite frankly he didn't. If Markus was hurt that badly, then you make adjustments accordingly. If that wasn't the reason for the collapse, then he should have known/figured out what it was and had it fixed by the second straight loss, and not wait until the end of the season to say "we'll evaluate that and try to figure out what happened".  He never fixed the problem of starting slowly at the beginning of games and most particularly second halves. It happened all the time. You could set your watch to it. Why wasn't that fixed?? Did he not see it as a problem or think it was a problem when everyone and their brother that followed the team saw that it was??

It's time to stop making excuses for him...you adapt and adjust if a player is hurt...the college BB landscape is filled every year with players that get hurt/injured and the Coaches adjust to what they have to work with.

Three examples(and there are many many more) right off the top of my head:

Va Tech-Was without Justin Robinson for a decent part of the second half of the season..They never had a collapse because of it(and Markus played with his injury...didn't miss any time).

Michigan State- They lost Joshua Langford for the season, they also lost Nick Ward for several games, Kyle Ahrens missed some games, and though they had some curious losses(2x Indiana, Illinois), they never had a collapse like MU did.

Oregon- They lost Bol Bol for well over half the season...they adjusted and are now in the Sweet 16 and one of the hottest teams in the country.

During the losing streak Wojo made the comment "every team goes through this at some point during a season, it's just a matter of when it happens". Sorry, but no they don't. How many other ranked teams most of the season lost 6 of their last 7 or hell lost 6-7 at any point during the year.

It's time for everyone to stop making excuses for him...and what it's really time for is the MU administration to want to be at the highest levels of CBB again, like Wild/Cords did. Stop being okay with mid major results. Just okay...is NOT okay.

The excuses for Wojo will not stop next year either. You nailed it in this post.

Quote from: muguru on March 25, 2019, 06:56:37 PM
Now those same people that said "5 years is the benchmark for judging Wojo" are now saying "let's give him one more year yet because the team should be significantly better".

No one is saying that. We are saying this year was good and we want more.

There is wisdom in the 5 years to judge mantra. But its not "look back on the past 5 years" and judge its "look what he's built in year 5" and judge. In year 5 Wojo has built a program able to get a top 5 seed despite an epic collapse and has a foundation to build on that success.

Quote from: muguru on March 25, 2019, 06:56:37 PM
I guess I'm just curious...a lot of you(us), were saying by year 5, that was the year to judge Wojo. This was his best team in his tenure by a wide margin, and they had an unprecedented collapse the last 7 games, and a blow out loss in the NCAA tourney to a mid major. I would certainly hope, that NO ONE would agree that that was okay, and a vast majority would have expected significantly more from a team that had the talent they did, and one that was ranked in the top 10 at one point during the season??

So let's fast forward..Now those same people that said "5 years is the benchmark for judging Wojo" are now saying "let's give him one more year yet because the team should be significantly better".  I know what's going to happen here...if Markus leaves, and there's a transfer or two for example, then people will give Wojo a pass and say "well this wasn't the team we all thought it would be before the season started".  If someone gets hurt and misses a few games, and it hurts the team during that stretch with losses, people will give Wojo a pass. Then 2020 will roll around, and Sam and Markus will be gone and everyone will give Wojo a pass because well "the expectations weren't as high losing those two". Rinse and repeat.

I see people blaming the late season collapse was due to Markus's hand injury. That's BS. He played with it, and it was his left hand, not his dominant hand. Did it have some effect?? Sure, it probably did. But it was far from the main reason the collapse happened.

Wojo is the Head Coach...it's his job to fix things that were wrong. Quite frankly he didn't. If Markus was hurt that badly, then you make adjustments accordingly. If that wasn't the reason for the collapse, then he should have known/figured out what it was and had it fixed by the second straight loss, and not wait until the end of the season to say "we'll evaluate that and try to figure out what happened".  He never fixed the problem of starting slowly at the beginning of games and most particularly second halves. It happened all the time. You could set your watch to it. Why wasn't that fixed?? Did he not see it as a problem or think it was a problem when everyone and their brother that followed the team saw that it was??

It's time to stop making excuses for him...you adapt and adjust if a player is hurt...the college BB landscape is filled every year with players that get hurt/injured and the Coaches adjust to what they have to work with.

Three examples(and there are many many more) right off the top of my head:

Va Tech-Was without Justin Robinson for a decent part of the second half of the season..They never had a collapse because of it(and Markus played with his injury...didn't miss any time).

Michigan State- They lost Joshua Langford for the season, they also lost Nick Ward for several games, Kyle Ahrens missed some games, and though they had some curious losses(2x Indiana, Illinois), they never had a collapse like MU did.

Oregon- They lost Bol Bol for well over half the season...they adjusted and are now in the Sweet 16 and one of the hottest teams in the country.

During the losing streak Wojo made the comment "every team goes through this at some point during a season, it's just a matter of when it happens". Sorry, but no they don't. How many other ranked teams most of the season lost 6 of their last 7 or hell lost 6-7 at any point during the year.

It's time for everyone to stop making excuses for him...and what it's really time for is the MU administration to want to be at the highest levels of CBB again, like Wild/Cords did. Stop being okay with mid major results. Just okay...is NOT okay.

I agree with this analysis.

Quote from: muguru on March 25, 2019, 06:56:37 PM
I guess I'm just curious...a lot of you(us), were saying by year 5, that was the year to judge Wojo.

Year 5 is done. And some of us have judged Wojo. And that judgment is good, positive, sustainable success.

Quote from: muguru on March 25, 2019, 06:56:37 PM


Oregon- They lost Bol Bol for well over half the season...they adjusted and are now in the Sweet 16 and one of the hottest teams in the country.

You do realize if Oregon doesn't win their tournament, they are in the NIT...right? Because they didn't do what was needed all year long, but got in at the end.  It's also why you don't want a 5 seed, because the 12's can be those hot teams from big conferences that only got in because they won their tournament.  You also realize that we beat Oregon handily last year....Wojo vs Dana.  In other words, we've had the athletes and players to go up against some of these teams and win, whether it is Louisville, Oregon, Nova, K State or others.

Here's what 5 years tells you Guru, that we don't have someone that is incapable.  We have someone capable....now whether they are capable enough is a legitimate question, but certainly capable of doing well, getting to the tournament, performing at a high level most of the time.

Quote from: 21rooster on March 25, 2019, 11:26:41 AM
It turns out the silent 84% majority actually has a much more level-headed view...which is rather important given some of the recent speculation.

I am one of the 84 percent and I found the selection between Bad Choice A and Bad Choice B to be as horrible as the 2016 election.  Right now Wojo is not bad enough to fire but not good enough to keep around—the paralyzing tyranny of mediocrity.

Quote from: avid1010 on March 24, 2019, 07:57:47 PM
Really?  Wasn't Herman the guy that made up BS about a recruiting visit and then got called out by Big Daddy?  I guess you guys just run in the same circles.

Was that "Q"?

Quote from: Badgerhater on March 25, 2019, 08:00:28 PM
I am one of the 84 percent and I found the selection between Bad Choice A and Bad Choice B to be as horrible as the 2016 election.  Right now Wojo is not bad enough to fire but not good enough to keep around—the paralyzing tyranny of mediocrity.

So if you are AD—option C—ensure the succession plan is ready. 

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 25, 2019, 05:19:08 PM
Tower and Marcus. Spot on. Summed up a lot of what I've been trying to say poorly for the past few days.

+1

Can't wait till next season. I have had so many great personal memories from this past season (sans the past three weeks).  We all want to same thing but the reality is our depth of frustration at season's end was built on the overjoy of what came before it. 

Being in love sucks when there is a sudden break-up at the end...but boy was the fling and wild wojo along the way worth it.

Quote from: Herman Cain on March 24, 2019, 09:08:54 PM
Future SAT question :
Crean is to Buzz as Wojo is to :____
A. Stan
B. Etc
C. Etc

B.Ghandi and C. John Wooden

Quote from: bilsu on March 24, 2019, 08:22:24 PM
I just want to be on record as voting to keep Wojo.

I also think the posters here asking for his firing are hurting recruiting.

If anything is hurting recruiting it's not a group of chuckleheads on a fan site.   

What's killing recruiting is a coach who cannot achieve superior results. Every prep star sees himself cutting down the nets. I think more than one recruit is out there asking if Wojo will give him that opportunity to shine in March.

Quote from: Jon on March 26, 2019, 12:28:02 AM
If anything is hurting recruiting it's not a group of chuckleheads on a fan site.   

What's killing recruiting is a coach who cannot achieve superior results. Every prep star sees himself cutting down the nets. I think more than one recruit is out there asking if Wojo will give him that opportunity to shine in March.

You are nuts....Wojo is EXCELLENT! He has achieved good results in the turning over of this team. No way in the world his job should be in question....

Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 25, 2019, 08:12:10 PM


So if you are AD—option C—ensure the succession plan is ready. 

Are are crazy! Wait until next year...calm down. Wojo and his team will be just fine.

Quote from: Herman Cain on March 25, 2019, 07:36:39 PM
I agree with this analysis.

The losing streak just happened at the wrong time...that is all. it's unfortunate. Markus was not 100% and you really felt the absence of Greg Elliott who did not play all year and a very unreliable Chartouny who was not a step up guy at all....

You can't have shaky guard play in college basketball. They have to bring it every night. if they are taken out of the game or hurt you will have a tough time. 

We couldn't find that consistent #3 guy and get out of the way of some bad whistles in some close games. FIRING IS NOT ALWAYS THE SOLUTION. No one has to be fired. 

No reason to panic.

bilsu

Come on, do you really believe Scoop can help or hurt in recruiting?

Quote from: MUHoopsFan2 on March 26, 2019, 12:38:28 AM
The losing streak just happened at the wrong time...that is all.

This is important.  For those that want to look through the losing streak (those losses could have happened anytime during the season) - I tend to look at KenPom.  We are at 32 (5 seed) - which seems about right in hindsight (based on strength of who we beat, down BEast, etc).  Two years ago we were at 32 (10 seed).  So essentially the results say our Wojo-peak is just out of the top-25.  That's what's happened and why some are so frustrated.  All the match-ups, tough bounces, nicks, lost 6 of 7, etc are just noise now.

I am glad some folks have hope -- I hope it comes true. 

Quote from: Goose on March 26, 2019, 04:39:38 AM
bilsu

Come on, do you really believe Scoop can help or hurt in recruiting?

Help? No. Hurt? It's absolutely possible.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 26, 2019, 07:44:58 AM
Help? No. Hurt? It's absolutely possible.

It's the most public window into our fanbase. It can definitely hurt recruiting.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 26, 2019, 07:44:58 AM
Help? No. Hurt? It's absolutely possible.

Every school has a version of Scoop. And every one has comments that range from the sublime to to ridiculous. Attacking the players ("choking dogs who peed down their legs") could certainly undermine recruiting and sabotage the program in general. Criticizing a coach after a disappointing collapse in what looked like a special season? Meh.

Lenny

Of course every program has a version of scoop. There is not a program in college ball that does not have folks question the program online. In addition, 90% of the posts on scoop are at least neutral in regards to Wojo and the team.

Quote from: Goose on March 26, 2019, 08:43:53 AMIn addition, 90% of the posts on scoop are at least neutral in regards to Wojo and the team.

It's definitely not the 90% that cause potential problems.

All my comment was meant to say was that Scoop could hurt recruiting, not what on scoop could hurt recruiting. And yes, all programs have a scoop that can hurt recruiting. Scoop is not unique. Well, not unique in that sense

brew

IMO, this site is a walk in the park in regards to criticism of Wojo. The harshest critics are from here being brutal. I actually applaud the critics for using some self control in their posts.

Next year is a big year. I like Wojo, but he definitely needs to deliver the goods next year. But he deserves to have that opportunity without people calling for his head.

This thread is premature for that reason.

Manyana, manyana I just met a girl named manyana, hey?

Quote from: Goose on March 26, 2019, 09:02:16 AM
brew

IMO, this site is a walk in the park in regards to criticism of Wojo. The harshest critics are from here being brutal. I actually applaud the critics for using some self control in their posts.

I'm not talking about the criticisms of Wojo. I agree that most are fair. But the way some of our players have been treated at times can be pretty disturbing. Luke, Derrick, Vander & others have been exposed to some really unwarranted criticisms.

It's a minority, no doubt, and probably even less than the 10% you suggest, but it just takes the wrong recruit or family member seeing the wrong post at the wrong time. I don't think it's a common occurrence, but I do think it happens.

Most are fair.  Sadly it is the handful that tend to be remembered most.

You now what hurts recruiting more than anything else?? Not winning. Specifically not winning in March on the biggest stage. That matters a lot to kids. Perhaps MU should try that sometime.

guru

I wish Wojo coached and recruited like you attack on here. Winning is a pretty good way to attract kids to program. I am sure you will get 4-5 posters telling you that we are winning.

Quote from: muguru on March 26, 2019, 11:35:29 AM
You now what hurts recruiting more than anything else?? Not winning. Specifically not winning in March on the biggest stage. That matters a lot to kids. Perhaps MU should try that sometime.

I agree with this analysis

Quote from: muguru on March 26, 2019, 11:35:29 AM
You now what hurts recruiting more than anything else?? Not winning. Specifically not winning in March on the biggest stage. That matters a lot to kids. Perhaps MU should try that sometime.

The top recruiting class for 2019 currently is Arizona, which lost in the first round last year and didn't make the tournament this year.
Fourth is USC, which has won one tournament game in the past six seasons (and only made the tourney twice).
Sixth is Georgia, which has won one tournament game in the last 20 years.
Eighth is Memphis, which hasn't appeared in the tournament since 2014.

Among the top 10 classes in 2019 were LSU, UCLA, Maryland, Texas and Indiana ... teams without a whole lot of March wins of late.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 26, 2019, 12:12:35 PM
The top recruiting class for 2019 currently is Arizona, which lost in the first round last year and didn't make the tournament this year.
Fourth is USC, which has won one tournament game in the past six seasons (and only made the tourney twice).
Sixth is Georgia, which has won one tournament game in the last 20 years.
Eighth is Memphis, which hasn't appeared in the tournament since 2014.

Among the top 10 classes in 2019 were LSU, UCLA, Maryland, Texas and Indiana ... teams without a whole lot of March wins of late.

Arizona, USC, Georgia, LSU, UCLA, Texas, Memphis= Warm Weather

Indiana= History and tradition

Maryland has always done decently recruiting.

Quote from: muguru on March 26, 2019, 12:50:46 PM
Arizona, USC, Georgia, LSU, UCLA, Texas, Memphis= Warm Weather

Explains the historical success of Villanova, Syracuse and UConn.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 26, 2019, 01:18:20 PM
Explains the historical success of Villanova, Syracuse and UConn.

And Gonzaga and the relative success in recruiting that a couple of Wisconsin schools have enjoyed.

Recruiting success is function of several things in no particular order. Recruits and their family have differing weighting priorities regarding these points.

1. History and Tradition of  program success
2. Perceived Playing Opportunity
3. Perceived Relationship with Coach
4. Reputation of Coach
5. Desirability of the  University in general
6. Distance from Home
7. Alumni Success in NBA
8. Comfort level parents /guardians have with coaching staff
9. Relationship with kids currently in the program
10. Geographic location

A consistent winning program will score high on many of these attributes. Creates greater opportunity to get best recruits.

Quote from: Herman Cain on March 26, 2019, 01:59:18 PM
Recruiting success is function of several things in no particular order. Recruits and their family have differing weighting priorities regarding these points.

1. History and Tradition of  program success
2. Perceived Playing Opportunity
3. Perceived Relationship with Coach
4. Reputation of Coach
5. Desirability of the  University in general
6. Distance from Home
7. Alumni Success in NBA
8. Comfort level parents /guardians have with coaching staff
9. Relationship with kids currently in the program
10. Geographic location

A consistent winning program will score high on many of these attributes. Creates greater opportunity to get best recruits.

Reading the board for the last several days, I would have thought the list came down to:

1.  Performance in the last seven games of the season.

Wojo currently polling at 85%.

Can you imagine if a president had 85% approval rating?


Looks like the MU fanbase is overwhelmingly in favor of Wojo continuing.

Maybe now we can move on?

Quote from: Coleman on March 26, 2019, 02:30:14 PM
Wojo currently polling at 85%.

Can you imagine if a president had 85% approval rating?


Looks like the MU fanbase is overwhelmingly in favor of Wojo continuing.

Maybe now we can move on?

The only reason most are okay with keeping him, is because they are okay with mediocrity. Not sure why, but they seem to be. I will get told "these things take time, etc etc etc". It's been 5 years, and if they don't do well next year, people will keep the excuse machine going for him. No one will want him fired after next year either if it's not up to expectations. People are too afraid of another Coaching search and losing players. As they say in the gambling world..."scared money don't make money".

I missed buzz the minute he left, and miss him even more now...he won.

Quote from: muguru on March 26, 2019, 02:34:45 PM
The only reason most are okay with keeping him, is because they are okay with mediocrity. Not sure why, but they seem to be. I will get told "these things take time, etc etc etc". It's been 5 years, and if they don't do well next year, people will keep the excuse machine going for him. No one will want him fired after next year either if it's not up to expectations. People are too afraid of another Coaching search and losing players. As they say in the gambling world..."scared money don't make money".

I missed buzz the minute he left, and miss him even more now...he won.

You aren't an alum, that's a big reason why the stain didn't impact you as it did SOME.  It has nothing to do with mediocrity, your continued use of that word means you don't know the definition of it. 

I always like the money reference, especially when it isn't your money that is being spent.  Yes, big bets can pay off big, plenty of big ones that bankrupted people and businesses too.  Again, what is your plan as the replacement, you have offered none that remotely are possible.  Your comparison to other coaches and programs that we aren't in the same space as is telling.   There is no guarantee Wojo is the answer. NONE.  We all get that, we all want to do better....but your backup plan leaves everything to be desired. Your plan is JUST FIRE, and we will figure it out.  Sorry, that doesn't work.

Quote from: Cheeks on March 26, 2019, 02:38:37 PM
You aren't an alum, that's a big reason why the stain didn't impact you as it did SOME.  It has nothing to do with mediocrity, your continued use of that word means you don't know the definition of it. 

I always like the money reference, especially when it isn't your money that is being spent.  Yes, big bets can pay off big, plenty of big ones that bankrupted people and businesses too.  Again, what is your plan as the replacement, you have offered none that remotely are possible.  Your comparison to other coaches and programs that we aren't in the same space as is telling.   There is no guarantee Wojo is the answer. NONE.  We all get that, we all want to do better....but your backup plan leaves everything to be desired. Your plan is JUST FIRE, and we will figure it out.  Sorry, that doesn't work.

You have no idea what my plan would be...none. I have one, believe me..that doesn't mean I am obligated to share a damn thing with you or the board. As far as not being able to draw in a big fish from a P6 school that you claim...that is 100%, absolutely totally VERIFIABLE bullsh*t. I talked to someone(s), that 100% would know the names that have applied or expressed interest, and there were several P6 Coaches that had interest the last time.

Quote from: muguru on March 26, 2019, 02:34:45 PM
The only reason most are okay with keeping him, is because they are okay with mediocrity.

Yep, most Scoopers are losers who aren't "competitors." If only 85% of us could be like the brave few Scoop soldiers who would have advocated firing K and Wright a few years into their careers and who still pine for the guy who can't put together a winning record at Texas.

Quote from: muguru on March 26, 2019, 02:43:49 PM
As far as not being able to draw in a big fish from a P6 school that you claim...that is 100%, absolutely totally VERIFIABLE bullsh*t. I talked to someone(s), that 100% would know the names that have applied or expressed interest, and there were several P6 Coaches that had interest the last time.

About this, my friend, you are right about the P6 coaches who had interest last time. chicos knows it, too, but he loves arguing for the sake of arguing and he keeps repeating it anyway.

Quote from: MU82 on March 26, 2019, 02:46:24 PM
Yep, most Scoopers are losers who aren't "competitors." If only 85% of us could be like the brave few Scoop soldiers who would have advocated firing K and Wright a few years into their careers and who still pine for the guy who can't put together a winning record at Texas.

About this, my friend, you are right about the P6 coaches who had interest last time. chicos knows it, too, but he loves arguing for the sake of arguing and he keeps repeating it anyway.

Just curious, why do you hate Shaka so much?? You constantly rail on him.

Quote from: muguru on March 26, 2019, 02:34:45 PM
The only reason most are okay with keeping him, is because they are okay with mediocrity. Not sure why, but they seem to be. I will get told "these things take time, etc etc etc". It's been 5 years, and if they don't do well next year, people will keep the excuse machine going for him. No one will want him fired after next year either if it's not up to expectations. People are too afraid of another Coaching search and losing players. As they say in the gambling world..."scared money don't make money".

I missed buzz the minute he left, and miss him even more now...he won.

Completely wrong. Shocking.

Quote from: muguru on March 26, 2019, 02:43:49 PM
You have no idea what my plan would be...none. I have one, believe me..that doesn't mean I am obligated to share a damn thing with you or the board. As far as not being able to draw in a big fish from a P6 school that you claim...that is 100%, absolutely totally VERIFIABLE bullsh*t. I talked to someone(s), that 100% would know the names that have applied or expressed interest, and there were several P6 Coaches that had interest the last time.

We keep asking you for one, you don't offer....maybe that's why we are defaulting to "JUST FIRE HIM AND WE WILL FIGURE IT OUT"

Here's your chance, what is the plan. Who are you hiring....give us Plan A, B, C, D.  Please. Thanks

Quote from: muguru on March 26, 2019, 02:50:31 PM
Just curious, why do you hate Shaka so much?? You constantly rail on him.

I hear he was simply a bad fit.

Guru, go root for Va Tech if you Buzz. Your drumbeat is so old and tiresome.

Quote from: muguru on March 26, 2019, 02:50:31 PM
Just curious, why do you hate Shaka so much?? You constantly rail on him.

For someone who claims to know things that others do not, do you really not know that my comments about Shaka (some real, some just for funsies) have nothing to do with any "hate" for him or "love" for anybody else?

Like many (most?) Scoopers, I was excited when it looked like we'd get him. He was the hot name at the time, the "cool" coach that all the kids would want to play for. But Mrs. Shaka hated Milwaukee and scotched the deal ... so he ended up going to Texas, where he has vastly, vastly, vastly underperformed every expectation anybody had for him.

I bring him up because ...

1. He is a valid comparison to Wojo, given that Wojo was the backup choice for the exact same job.

2. Some delusional Scoopers "know" he's a better coach than Wojo even though his body of work  these last 4 years does not support it.

3. Scoopers would have been out of their mind had Shaka come here and posted 11-22 and 16-16 seasons.

4. On a less serious note, it's one of "my fun things to say" here, just like 4ever's gibberish or wades' "next game is the only one that matters" or your claims that you are more competitive than the rest of us are fun things y'all say.

The only difference is that facts support what I say about Shaka while you have absolutely no proof that you are more competitive than I am or 4ever is or wades is or TAMU is or Smuggles is or Goose is or chicos is, etc.

Quote from: Herman Cain on March 26, 2019, 01:59:18 PM
Recruiting success is function of several things in no particular order. Recruits and their family have differing weighting priorities regarding these points.

1. History and Tradition of  program success
2. Perceived Playing Opportunity
3. Perceived Relationship with Coach
4. Reputation of Coach
5. Desirability of the  University in general
6. Distance from Home
7. Alumni Success in NBA
8. Comfort level parents /guardians have with coaching staff
9. Relationship with kids currently in the program
10. Geographic location

A consistent winning program will score high on many of these attributes. Creates greater opportunity to get best recruits.

Getting paid helps, too

Quote from: muguru on March 26, 2019, 02:34:45 PMThe only reason most are okay with keeping him, is because they are okay with mediocrity.

Fake news. I seriously question whether anyone who posts here either wants a mediocre MU program, or is simply willing to accept it.

Quote from: MU82 on March 26, 2019, 03:24:13 PM
For someone who claims to know things that others do not, do you really not know that my comments about Shaka (some real, some just for funsies) have nothing to do with any "hate" for him or "love" for anybody else?

Like many (most?) Scoopers, I was excited when it looked like we'd get him. He was the hot name at the time, the "cool" coach that all the kids would want to play for. But Mrs. Shaka hated Milwaukee and scotched the deal ... so he ended up going to Texas, where he has vastly, vastly, vastly underperformed every expectation anybody had for him.

I bring him up because ...

1. He is a valid comparison to Wojo, given that Wojo was the backup choice for the exact same job.

2. Some delusional Scoopers "know" he's a better coach than Wojo even though his body of work  these last 4 years does not support it.

3. Scoopers would have been out of their mind had Shaka come here and posted 11-22 and 16-16 seasons.

4. On a less serious note, it's one of "my fun things to say" here, just like 4ever's gibberish or wades' "next game is the only one that matters" or your claims that you are more competitive than the rest of us are fun things y'all say.

The only difference is that facts support what I say about Shaka while you have absolutely no proof that you are more competitive than I am or 4ever is or wades is or TAMU is or Smuggles is or Goose is or chicos is, etc.

The problem is...you or any of us don't know that Shaka would be performing the same at MU. Texas is a tough job basketball wise in a lot of respects. And yes..Mrs Shaka nixed that deal...Shaka had said yes, until she stepped in. Which brings us to our most valuable lesson in all of this...women should NEVER wear the pants in any household, yet so many do. Most men need to have more stones, that's all there is to it. ;D

Quote from: Marcus92 on March 26, 2019, 03:41:41 PM
Fake news. I seriously question whether anyone who posts here either wants a mediocre MU program, or is simply willing to accept it.

Yet, that's where the program is currently..mediocre, to possibly slightly above. And look at the poll, 80% don't want to fire Wojo. That would imply to me that many are satisfied with the job he has done thus far and where the program is at currently. To me, the program is mediocre right now..about on par with most of the other Big East schools(save for Nova and DePaul). That's not good enough for me. When MU first joined this conference, I figured/assumed, this would be a chance for them to really flex their muscles and run thru it yearly ala Memphis in CUSA for all those years. That's what SHOULD have/be occurring.  Yet, a vast majority here will "crow" over the strength of this Big East etc etc and talk about how it's not as bad as that Conference Memphis repeatedly ran thru on a yearly basis.

But saying that, is not admitting, it's not the strength of the conference, it's the mediocrity of the MU program currently that that scenario hasn't occurred. To me...inexcusable. Even if the conference was incredibly strong, my view would not change, Marquette should OWN the conference yearly. Like Nova has done. The fact that they don't is a much bigger indictment on the state of the MU program currently, then any praise for how much stronger the conference is then some people thought it would be.

Lest we forget, this same MU program won a Big East title in the toughest conference ever assembled, yet..have failed to win one in this Big East. Even when they had a chance to an almost impenetrable chance of not winning it..they failed to do so. That speaks volumes, sadly enough.

Quote from: muguru on March 26, 2019, 04:08:55 PM
The problem is...you or any of us don't know that Shaka would be performing the same at MU. Texas is a tough job basketball wise in a lot of respects.

Correct, Shaka might be performing worse at Marquette. You or any of us don't know otherwise.

And "Texas is a tough job basketball wise" sounds an awful lot like an excuse from a guy who is sick of excuses.

Marquette's program is well above "mediocre."  I am interested in hearing about guru's super secret plan though. 

Quote from: muguru on March 26, 2019, 04:19:44 PMThat would imply to me that many are satisfied with the job he has done thus far and where the program is at currently. To me, the program is mediocre right now..about on par with most of the other Big East schools(save for Nova and DePaul). That's not good enough for me.

There's a difference between seeing enough progress to believe Wojo has the program on the right track and being satisfied with where we are right now.

But if you still don't see the distinction, and continue to insist on exclaiming over and over how much more dedicated you are than every other poster here, so be it:

You're the best MU fan there could ever be. The rest of us are idiots content with being spoon-fed college basketball gruel instead of insisting on Dom Perignon and beluga caviar. We're 1,000% wrong. You're 1,000,000% right. We all wish we could be true uncompromising fans like you. Happy?

We'll have to agree to disagree on basically everything, apparently.

If you want to have a real impact on the Marquette program, muguru, and single-handedly compel MU to new heights, I don't know why you're spending so much time on this message board. Start an email or letter-writing campaign to the AD. I'm sure he'd love to hear from you. Or why not picket the administration building? That would show true commitment.

Better yet, go straight to the source. Because you clearly have all the answers about what the program needs, offer your services as a consultant. I'm sure they'll immediately recognize your expertise (being a guru and all) and reward you handsomely for the opinions you offer here for free. It's a wonder they haven't contacted you already.

Quote from: Marcus92 on March 26, 2019, 04:50:49 PM
Better yet, go straight to the source. Because you clearly have all the answers about what the program needs, offer your services as a consultant. I'm sure they'll immediately recognize your expertise (being a guru and all) and reward you handsomely for the opinions you offer here for free. It's a wonder they haven't contacted you already.

I'd gladly do it for free...that's how much I love MU BB...they have my #, I'm a season ticket holder..I'd be happy to take their call.

Quote from: muguru on March 26, 2019, 04:54:51 PMI'd gladly do it for free...that's how much I love MU BB...they have my #, I'm a season ticket holder..I'd be happy to take their call.

Unless you have experience as a Division I college basketball coach, scout, recruiter, analyst or athletic director, I wouldn't hold your breath.

Quote from: muguru on March 26, 2019, 04:54:51 PM
I'd gladly do it for free...that's how much I love MU BB...they have my #, I'm a season ticket holder..I'd be happy to take their call.

You love Marquette basketball the same way Lennie loved rabbits. Take a break dude.

How are we still having the same exact conversation in 10 different threads? Is nobody bored yet?

All things considered , I believe Wojo has done a respectable job for Marquette. The Big East is a tough conference to compete in. The nature of the double round robin makes it very hard to dominate over the full conference season as the other teams have a chance to scout and make adjustments.  Wojo has solidified the team in the upper half of the league.

I think the unexpected loss of Greg Elliott  hurt the team this year. It was somewhat masked during the first part of the year as Markus played out of his mind at times. However, it became more evident toward the end. Greg seemed like the kind of kid that mirrored Wojos  competitive personality and could have been a coach on the floor of sorts. May have made the difference in two or three games. Which could have impacted the seeding.

The team looks to be strong next year, even if Markus goes pro. I expect Joey Hauser to gain muscle and lose fat and become a more effective inside presence to complete his outside game. Sam should be healthy all season .  Sacar Theo and Ed  will keep improving. It remains to be seen if Koby can be as effective at the Big East level as he was for Utah State. If he can then the team is going to be a real force. I think Jamal will rebound to at least the levels we saw as a freshman as he will benefit from a real point guard like Koby and also being reunited with Greg. Anything the team can get from Ike will be gravy.

Quote from: UNC Eagle on March 26, 2019, 07:50:07 PM
All things considered , I believe Wojo has done a respectable job for Marquette. The Big East is a tough conference to compete in. The nature of the double round robin makes it very hard to dominate over the full conference season as the other teams have a chance to scout and make adjustments.  Wojo has solidified the team in the upper half of the league.

I think the unexpected loss of Greg Elliott  hurt the team this year. It was somewhat masked during the first part of the year as Markus played out of his mind at times. However, it became more evident toward the end. Greg seemed like the kind of kid that mirrored Wojos  competitive personality and could have been a coach on the floor of sorts. May have made the difference in two or three games. Which could have impacted the seeding.

The team looks to be strong next year, even if Markus goes pro. I expect Joey Hauser to gain muscle and lose fat and become a more effective inside presence to complete his outside game. Sam should be healthy all season .  Sacar Theo and Ed  will keep improving. It remains to be seen if Koby can be as effective at the Big East level as he was for Utah State. If he can then the team is going to be a real force. I think Jamal will rebound to at least the levels we saw as a freshman as he will benefit from a real point guard like Koby and also being reunited with Greg. Anything the team can get from Ike will be gravy.

1. Ridiculously calm, reasoned take.

2. Watch it on the Elliott thing. That's an "excuse," and we Scoopers hate excuses. Unless they benefit Shaka or Miles or Anderson or any coach not named Wojo. Then excuses are OK.

Got it?

Quote from: muguru on March 26, 2019, 02:34:45 PM
The only reason most are okay with keeping him, is because they are okay with mediocrity. Not sure why, but they seem to be. I will get told "these things take time, etc etc etc". It's been 5 years, and if they don't do well next year, people will keep the excuse machine going for him. No one will want him fired after next year either if it's not up to expectations. People are too afraid of another Coaching search and losing players. As they say in the gambling world..."scared money don't make money".

I missed buzz the minute he left, and miss him even more now...he won.

I'm not okay with mediocrity. The way this season ended was not "okay." Wojo is not a perfect coach. I'm not convinced Wojo is a great coach or will live up to those who came before him. I expect much better things next year, or there may be consequences.

All of that said, if you are going to call for someone to be fired, you need to have a replacement. You have to have assurances the outcome will be better than staying the course. You have offered no thoughts on this.

We have a very promising team next year. If you fired Wojo now, that all falls apart. I am not willing to discard what may end up being a fantastic, or perhaps even historic season, especially with no viable alternative.

BTW: Unlike Chicos, I was a Buzz fan. But he left. It is time to move on and work with what we have. I'm willing to give Wojo another year with what should be his most talented team yet.

Quote from: NickelDimer on March 26, 2019, 05:12:59 PM
You love Marquette basketball the same way Lennie loved rabbits. Take a break dude.

This post belongs in the Scoop Hall of Fame. Savage & brilliant.

Quote from: muguru on March 26, 2019, 04:19:44 PM
Yet, that's where the program is currently..mediocre, to possibly slightly above.

You don't seem to know what mediocre means. We made the tournament, which puts us ahead of 48 of 87 high major programs. Only 15 high majors had a higher seed than we did. That puts us in the 83rd percentile of high major programs.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 27, 2019, 09:52:17 AM
You don't seem to know what mediocre means. We made the tournament, which puts us ahead of 48 of 87 high major programs. Only 15 high majors had a higher seed than we did. That puts us in the 83rd percentile of high major programs.

To me, and the level I want MU to achieve...the results have been mediocre. Not failing to secure the BE title needing 1 win with 4 to go...terrible.

It was a bad finish. No one disputes that. That also doesn't undo November through February or that being in the 83rd percentile of high major programs is well above mediocre. The definitions of words don't change based on your expectations.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 27, 2019, 09:52:17 AM
You don't seem to know what mediocre means. We made the tournament, which puts us ahead of 48 of 87 high major programs. Only 15 high majors had a higher seed than we did. That puts us in the 83rd percentile of high major programs.

I love how people keep talking about how it's supposed to be a great thing that they got a #5 seed. And did what with it?? The idea of the tournament is to win and keep advancing isn't it?? 15 high majors had a higher seed....16 teams were ahead of Marquette on the seed line..MU the only team higher on the S Curve that lost their first game was K State. KState and MU...that's it..every other team won at least their first game. And 13 of the 16 are still playing in the Sweet 16, and two teams that were lower than MU on the S-Curve(Oregon and Auburn) Is that supposed to be impressive that they got a 5 seed and were 17th on the S Curve?? Is that banner hanging worthy??

You guys are so hell bent on pointing out how the arrow is pointing up..Sure getting a 5 seed was good this year compared to previous years, but my whole argument is, years like this year should NEVER be better years then previous years, they should be considered down years. Talk about where Wojo started etc..That's how you guys view it..I view it as, if this were typical years for Wojo, how many would be satisfied then, of NCAA(loss), NIT, NCAA(Loss)?? Not me, and that's why I don't like where the program is at.

Quote from: muguru on March 27, 2019, 11:11:01 AM
I love how people keep talking about how it's supposed to be a great thing that they got a #5 seed. And did what with it?? The idea of the tournament is to win and keep advancing isn't it?? 15 high majors had a higher seed....16 teams were ahead of Marquette on the seed line..MU the only team higher on the S Curve that lost their first game was K State. KState and MU...that's it..every other team won at least their first game. And 13 of the 16 are still playing in the Sweet 16, and two teams that were lower than MU on the S-Curve(Oregon and Auburn) Is that supposed to be impressive that they got a 5 seed and were 17th on the S Curve?? Is that banner hanging worthy??



You guys are so hell bent on pointing out how the arrow is pointing up..Sure getting a 5 seed was good this year compared to previous years, but my whole argument is, years like this year should NEVER be better years then previous years, they should be considered down years. Talk about where Wojo started etc..That's how you guys view it..I view it as, if this were typical years for Wojo, how many would be satisfied then, of NCAA(loss), NIT, NCAA(Loss)?? Not me, and that's why I don't like where the program is at.

They have 4 league title banners hanging at Fiserv.  You must have spent a lot of years being disappointed.  Have a grape soda

2015–16  St. John's  8–24 1–17 10th 
2016–17  St. John's  14–19 7–11 8th 
2017–18  St. John's  16–17 4–14 T–9th 
2018–19  St. John's  21–13 8–10 7th NCAA Division I First Four

This post right here will/should end all arguments about this topic..Guess what?? That's Chris Mullin at SJU...Guess where his trend line is?? UP Yet, 99.9% of you think he's a terrible Coach and they should fire him..And I promise you their fans feel the same way..They are right, he's an awful Coach.

But everyone here says Wojo's "trendline" is positive and pointing up...well..so is Mullin's. No different. At all. If that's what it's based on is trend line, then Mullin deserves more time to, right??

But hardly any of you would give him that time...yet support Wojo with the same "trend line". That's pretty hypocritical, isn't it??

The defense rests your honor.

Quote from: muguru on March 27, 2019, 11:53:19 AM
2015–16  St. John's  8–24 1–17 10th 
2016–17  St. John's  14–19 7–11 8th 
2017–18  St. John's  16–17 4–14 T–9th 
2018–19  St. John's  21–13 8–10 7th NCAA Division I First Four

This post right here will/should end all arguments about this topic..Guess what?? That's Chris Mullin at SJU...Guess where his trend line is?? UP Yet, 99.9% of you think he's a terrible Coach and they should fire him..And I promise you their fans feel the same way..They are right, he's an awful Coach.

But everyone here says Wojo's "trendline" is positive and pointing up...well..so is Mullin's. No different. At all. If that's what it's based on is trend line, then Mullin deserves more time to, right??

But hardly any of you would give him that time...yet support Wojo with the same "trend line". That's pretty hypocritical, isn't it??

The defense rests your honor.

It's very different. Wojo has won 20+ games every year but his first. Mullin's 8-10 conference record is his best while Wojo has 3 years better than that and 1 equal to it.

That said, you're correct that Mullin very clearly has SJU trending up. I don't think he should be fired at this point. But if he misses the tournament next year he should.

Quote from: MUeagle1090 on March 26, 2019, 05:14:46 PM
How are we still having the same exact conversation in 10 different threads? Is nobody bored yet?

The way we finished the year, people are going to have to vent, some more than others.  Internet is the best place to do this.  I would expect it to continue at this level, at least until the tournament is finished.  By then the baseball season will be 2 weeks in, and the NBA playoffs will be starting.  Once that happens, I expect the venting will be back down to the usual "championship or bust" crowd.

Quote from: muguru on March 27, 2019, 11:53:19 AM
2015–16  St. John's  8–24 1–17 10th 
2016–17  St. John's  14–19 7–11 8th 
2017–18  St. John's  16–17 4–14 T–9th 
2018–19  St. John's  21–13 8–10 7th NCAA Division I First Four

This post right here will/should end all arguments about this topic..Guess what?? That's Chris Mullin at SJU...Guess where his trend line is?? UP Yet, 99.9% of you think he's a terrible Coach and they should fire him..And I promise you their fans feel the same way..They are right, he's an awful Coach.

But everyone here says Wojo's "trendline" is positive and pointing up...well..so is Mullin's. No different. At all. If that's what it's based on is trend line, then Mullin deserves more time to, right??

But hardly any of you would give him that time...yet support Wojo with the same "trend line". That's pretty hypocritical, isn't it??

The defense rests your honor.

Are you comparing Mullin's record to Wojo's?  That's cute.

Guess what, Mullin shouldn't be fired this year either.

Quote from: MUeagle1090 on March 26, 2019, 05:14:46 PM
How are we still having the same exact conversation in 10 different threads? Is nobody bored yet?

Because the majority wont stop feeding the vocal minority trolls.

Quote from: Cheeks on March 27, 2019, 12:23:26 PM
Are you comparing Mullin's record to Wojo's?  That's cute.

Guess what, Mullin shouldn't be fired this year either.

The king of the "flashy" charts pounding home the point of Wojo's  "trend line"...and saying it's pointing up, and that's good enough. Mullin's is also pointing up(clearly), yet 90% of the people here that support Wojo, and think Mullin is a terrible Coach, think Mullin should be fired. Why?? I mean, you have tried to pound home that the "trend line" is all that matters as far as where a Head coach is at..Wojo's is trending up(you showed that numerous times trying to pound home the point), so are we going to apply different standards now for Mullin?? I think we are based on your "you're comparing Wojo's record to Mullin's..cute" remark.

You said it's all about trend line..Both are trending up..should Mullin be fired or not?? Do you think he's a good coach or not??

Quote from: MUeagle1090 on March 27, 2019, 12:00:29 PM
It's very different. Wojo has won 20+ games every year but his first. Mullin's 8-10 conference record is his best while Wojo has 3 years better than that and 1 equal to it.

That said, you're correct that Mullin very clearly has SJU trending up. I don't think he should be fired at this point. But if he misses the tournament next year he should.

Oh no...it's not different..we can't have different standards for Mullin as we do Wojo, just because Wojo is our Coach. It's been beaten home that what matters is trend line for a Coach..Not raw numbers or anything else...just whether or not he is trending up(meaning, has his team done better each year during his tenure), well Wojo's has...Mullin's has..But people would fire Mullin in a heart beat....but not Wojo. remember..it's not about raw numbers or "expectations", because when I tried to use that argument it was beaten down by many...it's ONLY about trend line/Trajectory....so we HAVE to use the same standards...why should Mullin be fired, but Wojo shouldn't be??

Quote from: muguru on March 27, 2019, 12:28:32 PM
The king of the "flashy" charts pounding home the point of Wojo's  "trend line"...and saying it's pointing up, and that's good enough. Mullin's is also pointing up(clearly), yet 90% of the people here that support Wojo, and think Mullin is a terrible Coach, think Mullin should be fired. Why?? I mean, you have tried to pound home that the "trend line" is all that matters as far as where a Head coach is at..Wojo's is trending up(you showed that numerous times trying to pound home the point), so are we going to apply different standards now for Mullin?? I think we are based on your "you're comparing Wojo's record to Mullin's..cute" remark.

You said it's all about trend line..Both are trending up..should Mullin be fired or not?? Do you think he's a good coach or not??

Do you even read the posts you respond to?

You're a joke.

Quote from: muguru on March 27, 2019, 11:53:19 AM
2015–16  St. John's  8–24 1–17 10th 
2016–17  St. John's  14–19 7–11 8th 
2017–18  St. John's  16–17 4–14 T–9th 
2018–19  St. John's  21–13 8–10 7th NCAA Division I First Four

This post right here will/should end all arguments about this topic..Guess what?? That's Chris Mullin at SJU...Guess where his trend line is?? UP Yet, 99.9% of you think he's a terrible Coach and they should fire him..And I promise you their fans feel the same way..They are right, he's an awful Coach.

But everyone here says Wojo's "trendline" is positive and pointing up...well..so is Mullin's. No different. At all. If that's what it's based on is trend line, then Mullin deserves more time to, right??

But hardly any of you would give him that time...yet support Wojo with the same "trend line". That's pretty hypocritical, isn't it??

The defense rests your honor.

Chris Mullin is a terrible coach because he had the talent he did, particularly Ponds, and barely made the tournament, could only go 6 deep on a roster he constructed and his record was aided by a very weak non-conference schedule. He was also 2-7 against the bottom three teams in the conference.

It doesn't have to be "either/or" when talking about trends and current performance.  My personal view is that notwithstanding an extremely disappointing end of the season, I was generally happy with where the team was this year.  The end of the season is concerning, no doubt.  Very.  But, over all, I think it was a good season.  I'm well aware that some will say that means I accept mediocrity.  Not true.  First of all, I don't think it was a mediocre season.  I think it was actually a very good season with a horrible end.  Second, I would not accept a similar melt down in the future.  So, regarding the current state of the program, I think it is overall good.  I also happen to believe that the program is trending in the right direction.  Check with me again at this time next year.

In short, I think that any rational fan would consider both current performance and trend.  Having a horrible season with a team that is trending up would not be satisfactory to me.  Having a program that plays in the second weekend of the tournament but is trending down is equally unacceptable.

Quote from: muguru on March 27, 2019, 11:53:19 AM
2015–16  St. John's  8–24 1–17 10th 
2016–17  St. John's  14–19 7–11 8th 
2017–18  St. John's  16–17 4–14 T–9th 
2018–19  St. John's  21–13 8–10 7th NCAA Division I First Four

This post right here will/should end all arguments about this topic..Guess what?? That's Chris Mullin at SJU...Guess where his trend line is?? UP Yet, 99.9% of you think he's a terrible Coach and they should fire him..And I promise you their fans feel the same way..They are right, he's an awful Coach.

But everyone here says Wojo's "trendline" is positive and pointing up...well..so is Mullin's. No different. At all. If that's what it's based on is trend line, then Mullin deserves more time to, right??

But hardly any of you would give him that time...yet support Wojo with the same "trend line". That's pretty hypocritical, isn't it??

The defense rests your honor.

Silliness.

So you contend that a coach who goes 1-29, 2-28, 3-27 and 4-26 is "trending up" the same way Wojo has?

All trending up is equal?

Okey dokey then.

Quote from: Cheeks on March 27, 2019, 12:23:26 PM
Guess what, Mullin shouldn't be fired this year either.

Quote from: muguru on March 27, 2019, 12:28:32 PM
You said it's all about trend line..Both are trending up..should Mullin be fired or not??

:o :o :o

I'd encourage posters to simply stop responding to this thread. It's a circular argument with no possible end other than insanity.

Quote from: MU82 on March 27, 2019, 01:55:06 PM
Silliness.

So you contend that a coach who goes 1-29, 2-28, 3-27 and 4-26 is "trending up" the same way Wojo has?

All trending up is equal?

Okey dokey then.

Cheeks said it's about trend line, he didn't give specifics...so based on what HE said, trending up, is trending up. He won't let me use specific #'s to support my argument, so the goal posts can't change now.

Quote from: Marcus92 on March 27, 2019, 02:12:40 PM
I'd encourage posters to simply stop responding to this thread. It's a circular argument with no possible end other than insanity.

If insanity could have ended this thread, it wouldn't have reached a fourth page.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 25, 2019, 05:16:13 PM
Legally speaking ageism only works up. You must be over 40 years old in order to claim age discrimination. Legally, you can't claim you are being discriminated against for being young.

Clearly laws that were written by and for old people.

Quote from: muguru on March 27, 2019, 02:36:44 PM
Cheeks said it's about trend line, he didn't give specifics...so based on what HE said, trending up, is trending up. He won't let me use specific #'s to support my argument, so the goal posts can't change now.

OK, sorry to interject myself in the deep conversation between you and chicos.

For the record, I do believe "trending up" is important. But as I said in another thread ...

He has a 3-year stretch of NCAA-NIT-NCAA ... with the latter including a 2nd-place finish and a 5-seed ... and with everybody coming back ... and with a good transfer becoming eligible ... and with a key injured player coming back ... and with at least one good recruit already on the hook ... and with several other recruits seriously considering MU ... and with near sellout crowds at an NBA arena most games ... and with a team full of kids who have represented the university perfectly.

In other words, even if one does think Mullin's up-trend is exactly the same as Wojo's, there are many other factors.

And you are smart enough to know it, guru.

And you also are smart enough to know that we've all wasted a LOT of words on whether or not a firing should take place when there is 0.00% chance that a firing will take place. So you are beating your head against a rock for nothing.

But yeah ... I know ... you are more competitive at beating your head against a rock than the rest of us are and you have higher expectations when it comes to head/rock contact!

Quote from: MU82 on March 27, 2019, 03:51:21 PM
OK, sorry to interject myself in the deep conversation between you and chicos.

For the record, I do believe "trending up" is important. But as I said in another thread ...

He has a 3-year stretch of NCAA-NIT-NCAA ... with the latter including a 2nd-place finish and a 5-seed ... and with everybody coming back ... and with a good transfer becoming eligible ... and with a key injured player coming back ... and with at least one good recruit already on the hook ... and with several other recruits seriously considering MU ... and with near sellout crowds at an NBA arena most games ... and with a team full of kids who have represented the university perfectly.

In other words, even if one does think Mullin's up-trend is exactly the same as Wojo's, there are many other factors.

And you are smart enough to know it, guru.

And you also are smart enough to know that we've all wasted a LOT of words on whether or not a firing should take place when there is 0.00% chance that a firing will take place. So you are beating your head against a rock for nothing.

But yeah ... I know ... you are more competitive at beating your head against a rock than the rest of us are and you have higher expectations when it comes to head/rock contact!

So let me ask you this, in all seriousness...when WOULD you make a move on letting Wojo go?? You cited everything above about how next year is supposed to be better...I don't disagree with that...so how far below expectations would next year have to be before you(or really anyone can answer this), would decide it was time for him to go after NEXT year?? Or would you give him another year after that?? And then another year after that, etc?? I'm curious what people's "breaking" points are?? I don't really want to hear "well it depends on how the season plays out etc"...I just want to know flat out, regardless of anything else, how far below expectations would they have to be next year for the move to occur?? If they miss the tournament?? is that enough?? Make it and get bounced right away(as a higher seed)? What would it take??

Quote from: muguru on March 27, 2019, 04:19:44 PM
So let me ask you this, in all seriousness...when WOULD you make a move on letting Wojo go?? You cited everything above about how next year is supposed to be better...I don't disagree with that...so how far below expectations would next year have to be before you(or really anyone can answer this), would decide it was time for him to go after NEXT year?? Or would you give him another year after that?? And then another year after that, etc?? I'm curious what people's "breaking" points are?? I don't really want to hear "well it depends on how the season plays out etc"...I just want to know flat out, regardless of anything else, how far below expectations would they have to be next year for the move to occur?? If they miss the tournament?? is that enough?? Make it and get bounced right away(as a higher seed)? What would it take??

Missing the tournament. 

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 27, 2019, 04:24:46 PM

Missing the tournament.

So as long as they get in to the tourney, results in the tournament are irrelevant?? I'm not criticizing, I'm just asking. I'm also curious, IF missing the tournament is what it would take, and as long as they did that(with the best team he has ever had at MU), should that really be the bar for a team that could/should be as good as we all think it is?? Just making the tournament?? I mean this years team made the tournament...and if next years team is supposed to be much better..

Quote from: muguru on March 27, 2019, 04:19:44 PM
So let me ask you this, in all seriousness...when WOULD you make a move on letting Wojo go?? You cited everything above about how next year is supposed to be better...I don't disagree with that...so how far below expectations would next year have to be before you(or really anyone can answer this), would decide it was time for him to go after NEXT year?? Or would you give him another year after that?? And then another year after that, etc?? I'm curious what people's "breaking" points are?? I don't really want to hear "well it depends on how the season plays out etc"...I just want to know flat out, regardless of anything else, how far below expectations would they have to be next year for the move to occur?? If they miss the tournament?? is that enough?? Make it and get bounced right away(as a higher seed)? What would it take??

Missing the tournament*

*Assuming next year's roster is as-expected (no surprise departures) and no significant injuries before or during the season

Quote from: jesmu84 on March 27, 2019, 04:35:36 PM
Missing the tournament*

*Assuming next year's roster is as-expected (no surprise departures) and no significant injuries before or during the season

Again, not criticizing, but is that a "fair" bar to have for the best team(some think possible top 10-15 team all season) Wojo has ever had?? Just making the tournament?? What if for example they go into the tourney as a 3/4 seed and lose their first game(again). Is that fine??

Now admittedly, IF there were significant departures(Like Markus, Sam, Joey etc) or significant injuries, and depending on if he went after and landed any grad transfers etc to try to fill what left...then I could possibly see just making the tournament as being enough...but if things are as we all think they will be, should just making the tournament be enough??

Quote from: muguru on March 27, 2019, 04:42:12 PM
Again, not criticizing, but is that a "fair" bar to have for the best team(some think possible top 10-15 team all season) Wojo has ever had?? Just making the tournament?? What if for example they go into the tourney as a 3/4 seed and lose their first game(again). Is that fine??

Now admittedly, IF there were significant departures(Like Markus, Sam, Joey etc) or significant injuries, and depending on if he went after and landed any grad transfers etc to try to fill what left...then I could possibly see just making the tournament as being enough...but if things are as we all think they will be, should just making the tournament be enough??

Yup. Just make the tourney. Elite teams can and do lose in the tourney for a variety of reasons. One single loss, even in the tourney, isn't going to ever make me want to fire a coach. Body of work.

Quote from: jesmu84 on March 27, 2019, 04:58:14 PM
Yup. Just make the tourney. Elite teams can and do lose in the tourney for a variety of reasons. One single loss, even in the tourney, isn't going to ever make me want to fire a coach. Body of work.

Okay, fair enough..That's where you set the bar..I'm curious where others would be?? As far as Elite teams losing in the tourney, that is correct...HOWEVER, they won...a lot in tourneys prior to that, that's how they became Elite..Once you are at the top, a few slip ups here and there are acceptable, but when you are trying to get to the top of that mountain, EVERY slip up, is another slip down the mountain.

Quote from: muguru on March 27, 2019, 04:19:44 PM
So let me ask you this, in all seriousness...when WOULD you make a move on letting Wojo go?? You cited everything above about how next year is supposed to be better...I don't disagree with that...so how far below expectations would next year have to be before you(or really anyone can answer this), would decide it was time for him to go after NEXT year?? Or would you give him another year after that?? And then another year after that, etc?? I'm curious what people's "breaking" points are?? I don't really want to hear "well it depends on how the season plays out etc"...I just want to know flat out, regardless of anything else, how far below expectations would they have to be next year for the move to occur?? If they miss the tournament?? is that enough?? Make it and get bounced right away(as a higher seed)? What would it take??

I am in the camp of every season stands on its own merit. There is no we will be better or worse next year in my view. So the decision to retain or move on to another candidate is based on the body of work to date.

From the standpoint of MU administration the following are known positives:
1. Attendance high
2. Student engagement in program high
3. The kids on the team represent the school well.
4. The program is consistently in the top half of the Conference.
5. Visibility and branding of the University is high

The unknown factors are:
1. Status of Key Donors satisfaction with progress of program
2. Student Athlete end of year evaluation of coaching staff is positive or negative
3 . Potential of program consistently being in the tournament
4. Ability to attract top tier recruits is consistent from year to year

I think when the preponderance of the above are negative or trending down it becomes time to make a change .

Quote from: muguru on March 27, 2019, 04:35:12 PM
So as long as they get in to the tourney, results in the tournament are irrelevant?? I'm not criticizing, I'm just asking. I'm also curious, IF missing the tournament is what it would take, and as long as they did that(with the best team he has ever had at MU), should that really be the bar for a team that could/should be as good as we all think it is?? Just making the tournament?? I mean this years team made the tournament...and if next years team is supposed to be much better..

You asked under what circumstances should he be fired next year.  Missing the tournament.

If he makes it as a seven seed and they lose to a 10?  Not fired.  But the trendline heads the other direction which puts him on notice. 

Quote from: muguru on March 27, 2019, 04:19:44 PM
So let me ask you this, in all seriousness...when WOULD you make a move on letting Wojo go??

The problem with these hypothetical situations -- which many Scoopers really love to throw out there -- is they don't allow for nuance. Or, for that matter, real life.

But sure, I'll play ...

Barring some crazy circumstance out of his control, missing the tournament would make me want to bring in another coach. That would be a major step backward, and I have said several times that when the trend turns downward -- as it did for Miles and Anderson and several other fired coaches this year -- I don't think I would gripe about Wojo getting the heave-ho.

Making the tournament, losing in the first round and not having good recruits coming in ... that would at least maybe make me think that he can't do the job. But I'd have to see what the actual situation is in real time before I can say anything definitive.

But if we have another solid season, draw good crowds to Fiserv and easily make the tournament ... but get upset in the first round (as three 5-seeds did this year and as Virginia did in 2018 as a 1-seed) ... and if we have another solid recruiting class coming in to go with Joey, BB, Koby, Theo, etc ... no, I would not consider that a "fireable offense." At least I don't think so as we sit here today without knowing what is happening in real time next March.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 27, 2019, 07:26:12 PM

You asked under what circumstances should he be fired next year.  Missing the tournament.

If he makes it as a seven seed and they lose to a 10?  Not fired.  But the trendline heads the other direction which puts him on notice.

Count how many coaches in the NCAA tourney get fired this year.  Add that to the number of coaches that were fired after making it last year.  Why not...make it the last two. Having trouble coming up with any?  Those making these decisions know more about the challenges of making the tourney than a bunch of internet posters. 

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 27, 2019, 09:52:17 AM
You don't seem to know what mediocre means. We made the tournament, which puts us ahead of 48 of 87 high major programs. Only 15 high majors had a higher seed than we did. That puts us in the 83rd percentile of high major programs.

Are YOU happy with the 83rd percentile??  I demand 90th or HIGHER.  I'm not settling for ANYTHING less and neither should you or any other MU fan.  83rd percentile would be a low B.  I am entitled to a program that gets A's and ONLY A's. 

Quote from: Herman Cain on March 27, 2019, 05:22:26 PM
I am in the camp of every season stands on its own merit. There is no we will be better or worse next year in my view. So the decision to retain or move on to another candidate is based on the body of work to date.

But that's not how college basketball works. Recruiting and future teams should play a huge role in the evaluation of the coach.

Honest question: Would you fire a coach with a top 10 recruiting class coming in next year because he had a stinker of a season? Or would you reserve judgment and see how that recruiting class performed? If you fire him, it is safe to assume most of those recruits de-commit.

Quote from: 21rooster on March 27, 2019, 10:58:10 PM
Count how many coaches in the NCAA tourney get fired this year.  Add that to the number of coaches that were fired after making it last year.  Why not...make it the last two. Having trouble coming up with any?  Those making these decisions know more about the challenges of making the tourney than a bunch of internet posters. 

Exactly.  Do you know how much the local and national media would lambast MU if they fired a coach that just lead them to their best season in six years?

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 28, 2019, 09:11:16 AM

Exactly.  Do you know how much the local and national media would lambast MU if they fired a coach that just lead them to their best season in six years?

But that would be because the media doesn't understand what we should be.

Quote from: Coleman on March 28, 2019, 09:02:53 AM
But that's not how college basketball works. Recruiting and future teams should play a huge role in the evaluation of the coach.

Honest question: Would you fire a coach with a top 10 recruiting class coming in next year because he had a stinker of a season? Or would you reserve judgment and see how that recruiting class performed? If you fire him, it is safe to assume most of those recruits de-commit.

Recruit rankings are not worth the paper they are written on. All ADs know that. Our 2013 class was a top 10 class for example. So recruiting is only properly assessed in hindsight.

To answer your question, I laid out a whole group of parameters. All of those factors are taken into consideration as a whole. 

Buzz was effectively fired/let go and his incoming class was highly regarded on paper (Ahmed Hill,Marial Shayok, Sandy Cohen ,Satchel Paige plus Luke Fischer transfer)

Polls are still open

Polls still open

Quote from: Herman Cain on April 08, 2019, 06:07:52 PM
Polls still open

Oh good - weeks later we're still trying to stop beating around the bush!

Still going to be 85-15.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 08, 2019, 06:14:30 PM
Oh good - weeks later we're still trying to stop beating around the bush!

Hermie is just beating the bush

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on April 08, 2019, 08:55:30 PM
Hermie is just beating the bush

He's about to join the Fed, so he's on Cloud 9-9-9!