MUScoop

The Wojo haters are calling for his head now. The fervent Wojo supporters think the frist group is crazy. Those in between basically support Wojo and have seen progress, but feel its too slow and note some disturbing weaknesses in certain aspects of coaching.

It seems pretty much agreed that he is not going anywhere at this point and will have next year here to add to his body of work. Where should the bar be set?

For me, I can pick just one of those.

What if he has a losing record, puts together a BET title and wins a 12-5 game as the 12.

Is that a good season?

I will continue to make my personal assessment on the whole body of work

Quote from: jesmu84 on March 24, 2019, 12:41:12 PM
For me, I can pick just one of those.

What if he has a losing record, puts together a BET title and wins a 12-5 game as the 12.

Is that a good season?

I will continue to make my personal assessment on the whole body of work

Wow, you and I are connected today.  Scary. 

It feels like some of our fans want Steve Lavin at UCLA to come in.  Have a crap year, get hot in the conf tournament and win a game or two in the NCAAs and that's all that matters. 

I voted NCAA bid, but I feel his seat his is ice cold with the admin regardless barring a catastrophic collapse next year (ie last place BE finish). He wouldn't be fired if we miss the tournament but I think he'd bail to a place like UNLV (might happen this year).

I think we should give Wojo more time and full support because it would not be good to fire a coach who is having decent success here and would make it hard to attract good candidates when we eventually need a new coach.

Let's not forget, he was a coach of the year candidate about a month ago.

Quote from: AirPunch on March 24, 2019, 12:55:42 PMLet's not forget, he was a coach of the year candidate about a month ago.

only because Jay Wright is conspiring to get him to stick around for easy wins

Quote from: Cheeks on March 24, 2019, 12:50:54 PM
Wow, you and I are connected today.  Scary. 

It feels like some of our fans want Steve Lavin at UCLA to come in.  Have a crap year, get hot in the conf tournament and win a game or two in the NCAAs and that's all that matters.

Cheeks, when it comes to generational discussions or politics, you and I aren't on the same page, let alone chapter or book.

With regards to MU and the bball program, I think we're pretty darn close.

Scary indeed.

As Adrian said coming out of the coma in the movie Rocky, "Win."

There isn't one thing he needs to do. It's the same list I provided in the other thread. There are overall long term expectations.

Now after 5 years.....

Annual (almost) NCAA's next year included.

2nd weekend every few years.

deeper run every long while

no off court issues

better conference tourney results

top 5 league finishes, challenging for league title every few years.

Next year? Make the dance? How is recruiting going at that time? expectations can and do change during a season too.

Quote from: shoothoops on March 24, 2019, 01:09:32 PM
As Adrian said coming out of the coma in the movie Rocky, "Win."

There isn't one thing he needs to do. It's the same list I provided in the other thread. There are overall long term expectations.

Now after 5 years.....

Annual (almost) NCAA's next year included.

2nd weekend every few years.

deeper run every long while

no off court issues

better conference tourney results

top 5 league finishes, challenging for league title every few years.

Next year? Make the dance? How is recruiting going at that time? expectations can and do change during a season too.

Are you watching Rocky 2 on BBC right now as well?

Quote from: MUpilot on March 24, 2019, 01:11:45 PM
Are you watching Rocky 2 on BBC right now as well?

Lol, no actually. I'm not. But all of the Rocky's are seemingly on all the time. I enjoy most of them. My Rocky comment was probably made because we can all talk and talk about Wojo and his job. But the simple answer is if he wins he stays. And then that image of Adrian and the dinging music when she says win, seemed like the best way to simplify it. Enjoy the movie.

I think my expectation is 27+ total wins. I think next year's team should fulfill the promise we had on the morning of February 27.

The biggest disappointment over the last month is not just the losses; it's how the team lost.  The team crumbled late in many of the games, and against Murray State, got embarrassed on national television in the biggest game of our season.  If the team went out swinging and gave it all they had, it would have made the end easier to swallow. 

Next year, a deep tournament run will not make or break the season; but if the team continues to lose the way it has, especially to close out the season, I think it would be fair to have an honest assessment of where the program is at.

Quote from: MUpilot on March 24, 2019, 01:11:45 PM
Are you watching Rocky 2 on BBC right now as well?

Well f#cking played, my friend. Outstanding.

Quote from: jesmu84 on March 24, 2019, 01:02:23 PM
Cheeks, when it comes to generational discussions or politics, you and I aren't on the same page, let alone chapter or book.

With regards to MU and the bball program, I think we're pretty darn close.

Scary indeed.

Smooch.  You would be surprised by a few things we are aligned on in the other categories, too.....but I can't divulge in order to maintain my bonafides.  😘

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 24, 2019, 01:53:52 PM
I think my expectation is 27+ total wins. I think next year's team should fulfill the promise we had on the morning of February 27.

Generally agree.  Though under-performing regular season, tourney bid and a couple wins could be good enough too.  All depends on situations and how the whole season works out.

I would be perfectly happy to see some of the deficiencies that have gone uncorrected for the first five years go away.  I don't care what the record is, how far we get in any tournament, etc..

To see Wojo fix issues with team defense (sorry, it still needs a lot of work), opponent game prep and in-game adjustments would remove me from the ranks of those criticizing him.

He can clearly recruit and runs a clean program and if he can fix the above, the rest will take care of itself.

I don't think Wojo's job needs "saving" in the normal sense, but they are very high expectations for next season. If he doesn't deliver, that's a problem. I'm not sure how much he would need to under perform to get fired, but there is a line that if cross would lead to him getting fired. I'm not sure where the line is or should be, but it's probably lower than most scoopers expect.

Finish a season that started 23-4 with something better than 1-6.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 24, 2019, 04:17:16 PM
I don't think Wojo's job needs "saving" in the normal sense, but they are very high expectations for next season. If he doesn't deliver, that's a problem. I'm not sure how much he would need to under perform to get fired, but there is a line that if cross would lead to him getting fired. I'm not sure where the line is or should be, but it's probably lower than most scoopers expect.

+1

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 24, 2019, 04:17:16 PM
I don't think Wojo's job needs "saving" in the normal sense, but they are very high expectations for next season. If he doesn't deliver, that's a problem. I'm not sure how much he would need to under perform to get fired, but there is a line that if cross would lead to him getting fired. I'm not sure where the line is or should be, but it's probably lower than most scoopers expect.

Weren't they also very high this year?? afterall this was the best team he has had in his time at MU, and the BE was down.

Quote from: muguru on March 24, 2019, 06:01:11 PM
Weren't they also very high this year?? afterall this was the best team he has had in his time at MU, and the BE was down.

Picked 2nd, finished 2nd. Picked for NCAAs, made NCAAs.

Quote from: Cheeks on March 24, 2019, 06:05:14 PM
Picked 2nd, finished 2nd. Picked for NCAAs, made NCAAs.

LOL Okay Chicos...you do you man, you do you.

Quote from: mileskishnish72 on March 24, 2019, 12:28:18 PM
The Wojo haters are calling for his head now. The fervent Wojo supporters think the frist group is crazy. Those in between basically support Wojo and have seen progress, but feel its too slow and note some disturbing weaknesses in certain aspects of coaching.

It seems pretty much agreed that he is not going anywhere at this point and will have next year here to add to his body of work. Where should the bar be set?

Interesting phraseology "wojo haters". Exsctly what is a Wojo hater? Is that someone that is frustrated with the results of his coaching? Is that someone who is disappointed with the major meltdown? Or I'd it simply one who objectively looks st his results  with all the resources given to him and believes that there should be more  impressive results. Interesting phraseology  haters.

Quote from: muguru on March 24, 2019, 06:11:33 PM
LOL Okay Chicos...you do you man, you do you.

Those were the expectations, yes or no?  Everyone in the basketball universe knew the Big East was going to be down this year, yet all the experts picked us 2nd. That's where we finished, yes or no?

Quote from: willie warrior on March 24, 2019, 06:12:55 PM
Interesting phraseology "wojo haters". Exsctly what is a Wojo hater? Is that someone that is frustrated with the results of his coaching? Is that someone who is disappointed with the major meltdown? Or I'd it simply one who objectively looks st his results  with all the resources given to him and believes that there should be more  impressive results. Interesting phraseology  haters.

Someone that says a used car salesman is a better coach than Wojo....like you said...that would be a hater.

I agree with TAMU's post.

Right now, there is no job that he has to "save," so the whole notion is pretty absurd. But to keep Scoop from being even less we-hate-our-coach-y than it is now, he needs to win 27+ games, with at least 2 of those wins in the NCAAs.

Quote from: muguru on March 24, 2019, 06:01:11 PM
Weren't they also very high this year?? afterall this was the best team he has had in his time at MU, and the BE was down.

You can go back and check. Preseason I said expectations were top 7 seed, top 3 finish in the Big East. My personal expectations were 5 seed and top 2 in the Big East. The how we got there was unexpected, but expectations were met. The slide at the end kept them from being exceeded.

Quote from: willie warrior on March 24, 2019, 06:12:55 PM
Interesting phraseology "wojo haters". Exsctly what is a Wojo hater? Is that someone that is frustrated with the results of his coaching? Is that someone who is disappointed with the major meltdown? Or I'd it simply one who objectively looks st his results  with all the resources given to him and believes that there should be more  impressive results. Interesting phraseology  haters.

Funny, your definition of a Wojo is hater is close to what I assume other people mean about Wojo lover.

It's a good reminder though. I think very few people love or hate our coach. I think we all want to see Marquette do well. We just have different views on what the best path forward is for success.

Barring major injury, 3 seed and S16

Absent that, would need a BEAst regular season title with at least 2 of Dainja/Garcia/Burnett/Strawther/Johnson signed on top of Torrence

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on March 24, 2019, 06:52:52 PM
Barring major injury, 3 seed and S16

Absent that, would need a BEAst regular season title with at least 2 of Dainja/Garcia/Burnett/Strawther/Johnson signed on top of Torrence

That's fine if those are your personal expectations but I'm letting you know that there is not a program in the country that would fire a coach after a top 3 seed and a loss in the round of 32 or a 4 seed with a S16, regardless of the recruiting class signed in 2020.

Quote from: Cheeks on March 24, 2019, 06:18:02 PM
Those were the expectations, yes or no?  Everyone in the basketball universe knew the Big East was going to be down this year, yet all the experts picked us 2nd. That's where we finished, yes or no?

Expectations change as the year goes on..and I think that's fair for any fan base. Going into the season yes those were SOME people's expectations..However, I think on February 27th, everyone's expectations were different, and rightly so. So if crashing and burning down the stretch to get to preseason expectations, is the way you get to those expectations...well..I'm not sure that's a good thing.

You also have to recognize and understand that different people have different expectations at the start of the year. They were on their way to meeting my preseason expectations on February 27th...after that, they ended up falling far below where I thought/expected they would be.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 24, 2019, 06:59:41 PM
That's fine if those are your personal expectations but I'm letting you know that there is not a program in the country that would fire a coach after a top 3 seed and a loss in the round of 32 or a 4 seed with a S16, regardless of the recruiting class signed in 2020.

Completely agree, just think if those aren't the results with the roster next year I personally will have seen enough to know it's probably not ever gonna happen

Quote from: muguru on March 24, 2019, 07:14:02 PM
Expectations change as the year goes on..and I think that's fair for any fan base. Going into the season yes those were SOME people's expectations..However, I think on February 27th, everyone's expectations were different, and rightly so. So if crashing and burning down the stretch to get to preseason expectations, is the way you get to those expectations...well..I'm not sure that's a good thing.

You also have to recognize and understand that different people have different expectations at the start of the year. They were on their way to meeting my preseason expectations on February 27th...after that, they ended up falling far below where I thought/expected they would be.

We won some games early on we shouldn't have, things tend to even out.  I'm as disappointed in the finish as you are, I was also surprised we won some early games that we did.  This is where you take a step back and say, what were the expectations and goals.  They met mine if I do that honestly.  Yes, that doesn't take away the disappointment of what COULD HAVE BEEN, but what I expected...they met. 

What must Wojo do to keep his job?

Umm ... keep breathing?

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 24, 2019, 06:48:31 PM
Funny, your definition of a Wojo is hater is close to what I assume other people mean about Wojo lover.

It's a good reminder though. I think very few people love or hate our coach. I think we all want to see Marquette do well. We just have different views on what the best path forward is for success.

You and I are dealing with very different people. I'm seeing pure, blind, loathing. An unhappiness so profound I cannot fathom why they still follow a program that they complain about with every single breath.

Quote from: Cheeks on March 24, 2019, 06:18:49 PM
Someone that says a used car salesman is a better coach than Wojo....like you said...that would be a hater.

That foes not portray hate. It is hyperbole
Cant remember when it if I said that but it is a good comparison

A better question might be, what does Marquette have to do to keep Wojo?

Quote from: vogue65 on March 25, 2019, 09:05:26 AM
A better question might be, what does Marquette have to do to keep Wojo?

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but if Wojo isn't confident he can win big with the roster he has next year to put a stamp on this program and set himself up for big recruiting wins down the road and salivating at the opportunity/challenge, then let him walk.

Quote from: willie warrior on March 25, 2019, 08:44:21 AM
That foes not portray hate. It is hyperbole
Cant remember when it if I said that but it is a good comparison

Call it what you will, it was emotional and hate is an emotion.

We've all been emotional and say odd things regarding MU athletics and sports in general, yours truly included.  But when you do it over and over and over like you do, it sure feels like hatred...they aren't one offs.

Willie, I can't remember the last time you had anything positive to say about Wojo or the team. While I appreciate different perspectives, reading the same one-sided take time after time gets old fast.

What must Wojo do to keep his job?

Umm ... show up to work?

Quote from: Marcus92 on March 25, 2019, 12:17:27 PM
Willie, I can't remember the last time you had anything positive to say about Wojo or the team. While I appreciate different perspectives, reading the same one-sided take time after time gets old fast.

Ok. He seems like a nice guy and doing his best. He is just in over his head. Would be a nice assistant. Now that is positive.

I'd call that more condescending than positive. But you're entitled to your opinion.

It don't matta ta me if da coach is 4-26, wins da conference tourney, den goes on a 6 game Big Dance winnin' streak and is NCAA Champ. In my opinion, da dude is golden. Won in March and dat's how eye judge, hey?

Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 25, 2019, 01:50:36 PM
It don't matta ta me if da coach is 4-26, wins da conference tourney, den goes on a 6 game Big Dance winnin' streak and is NCAA Champ. In my opinion, da dude is golden. Won in March and dat's how eye judge, hey?

Well, Al didn't win the championship until his very final game. You apparently spent a lot of years being dissatisfied with his work, including most certainly at points during that championship season.

I voted avoid off the court issues, because I do not think his job is in jeopardy. 

I don't like saying things like we need to finish in 2nd place in the Big East, because our season doesn't happen in a vacuum.

For example, Tower said we met his expectations because we had a top 3 Big East regular season and a 5 seed.  If Tower knew how bad the Big East was going to be this year, would a third place Big East finish really be his expectation?  That expectation sounded reasonable to me in November, but when Villanova was losing to the likes of Furman and Penn, and the rest of the Big East was a pile of mediocrity, I think a 3rd place finish in the BE this year would have been badly underperforming and I don't think winning the Big East regular season would have been overperforming.  Second place was minimum acceptable.

I also don't get the logic of our 5 seed, we were a 7 or maybe an 8 IMHO (and every analytical metric and poll).  I don't like a judging system that says if you go 1-1 against a team you are better if you won on the road and lost at home rather than the reverse.  Shouldn't matter.

I would say next year assuming health and the return of Howard, I would expect us to be a legit top 5 seed (top 20 in the country on the committees list and in the polls and analytical systems).  How that translates in terms of Big East record, etc. depends on what some of our conference mates do, but that would probably make us the best team in the Big East and a first place finish, maybe second.  My expectations for the postseason are less well defined.  I expect us to play well in the postseason.  If we got beat while playing well against a hot team that would not make me want to part ways Wojo, but boy, the fan base really needs a successful Big East or NCAA tournament run.  While 2018-19 should have represented the crown of his first recruiting cycle, 2019-20 should be his summit.

Finally, I expect a good recruiting class for 2020 (top 20ish), to give a feeling of confidence that the ball will keep rolling. 

If all that happens, I would agree with the positive trajectory crowd.

Zero chance MU makes a change.  I doubt anyone is more upset with the end of the season than Wojo.  It cost him huge money.

Quote from: CTWarrior on March 25, 2019, 02:11:46 PM
I voted avoid off the court issues, because I do not think his job is in jeopardy. 

I don't like saying things like we need to finish in 2nd place in the Big East, because our season doesn't happen in a vacuum.

For example, Tower said we met his expectations because we had a top 3 Big East regular season and a 5 seed.  If Tower knew how bad the Big East was going to be this year, would a third place Big East finish really be his expectation?  That expectation sounded reasonable to me in November, but when Villanova was losing to the likes of Furman and Penn, and the rest of the Big East was a pile of mediocrity, I think a 3rd place finish in the BE this year would have been badly underperforming and I don't think winning the Big East regular season would have been overperforming.  Second place was minimum acceptable.

I also don't get the logic of our 5 seed, we were a 7 or maybe an 8 IMHO (and every analytical metric and poll).  I don't like a judging system that says if you go 1-1 against a team you are better if you won on the road and lost at home rather than the reverse.  Shouldn't matter.

I would say next year assuming health and the return of Howard, I would expect us to be a legit top 5 seed (top 20 in the country on the committees list and in the polls and analytical systems).  How that translates in terms of Big East record, etc. depends on what some of our conference mates do, but that would probably make us the best team in the Big East and a first place finish, maybe second.  My expectations for the postseason are less well defined.  I expect us to play well in the postseason.  If we got beat while playing well against a hot team that would not make me want to part ways Wojo, but boy, the fan base really needs a successful Big East or NCAA tournament run.  While 2018-19 should have represented the crown of his first recruiting cycle, 2019-20 should be his summit.

Finally, I expect a good recruiting class for 2020 (top 20ish), to give a feeling of confidence that the ball will keep rolling. 

If all that happens, I would agree with the positive trajectory crowd.

I thought the Big East would be down.  But I also expected Cain and Chartouny to be better.  I also thought Heldt would start at center and Morrow would play the 4.  I did not know how much the defense would improve.  Always surprises, but the end result was about what I expected.

Quote from: tower912 on March 25, 2019, 02:26:51 PM
I thought the Big East would be down.  But I also expected Cain and Chartouny to be better.  I also thought Heldt would start at center and Morrow would play the 4.  I did not know how much the defense would improve.  Always surprises, but the end result was about what I expected.

I did not mean to say anything negative about your predictions.  I am not in the habit of studying the other teams until I see them play and at the beginning of the season I would just look at what we are and how that team would fare in a normal season.

Just makes more sense to look macro than micro, because variations tend to even out over a larger swath of teams.  I thought your initial expectations were reasonable/good (top 3 in Big East and 5 seed).  The 5 seed to me meant we would be 16-20 nationally (I did not offer a prediction but would likely have just said finish in the top 25). But I thought St Johns would be better than they were, so a top 3 Big East finish would mean to be in national 18-25 range along with SJU and Villanova, and SJU was not close to that.  If I knew what SJU was really going to be, I would have said top 2, not top 3.  That's why I wouldn't necessarily pin MU's conference position in an expectation.

I think we agree in principle.

Whole body of work is all that matters. Losing in the tournament sucks, but they're not going to fire a coach for losing 1 game. 

I think Wojo is like...completely safe.  But I would say the heat would get hot if he somehow misses the tourney next season.  But I doubt that happens.

Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on March 25, 2019, 04:05:50 PM
Whole body of work is all that matters. Losing in the tournament sucks, but they're not going to fire a coach for losing 1 game. 

I think Wojo is like...completely safe.  But I would say the heat would get hot if he somehow misses the tourney next season.  But I doubt that happens.

If he misses the tourney next season and there aren't SIGNIFICANT extenuating circumstances -- such as Markus and both Hausers getting hurt -- I would join those who want to put heat on Wojo.

I'm similar to TAMU in my support. I see a gradual upward trend, a coach learning, talent improving, wish it were happening faster, hated the last 23 days of the season, look forward to a very good 2019-20 season. But despite my defense of Wojo most of the time, it's not a forever thing. He has to keep showing progress.

I happen to think that's reasonable. More than that, though, I'm quite sure it's pragmatic because he isn't going to get fired and it's out of our control, so I choose to be positive and optimistic.

We are Marquette!

Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on March 25, 2019, 04:05:50 PM
Whole body of work is all that matters. Losing in the tournament sucks, but they're not going to fire a coach for losing 1 game. 

I think Wojo is like...completely safe.  But I would say the heat would get hot if he somehow misses the tourney next season.  But I doubt that happens.

+1.  If there's any heat at all, that is.

At the end of the day, Wojo is the head coach.  He has an entire staff dedicated to shaping, training, forming, preparing, and teaching his players.  He isn't going anywhere unless he trusts his staff and the players to execute the plan, and ultimately, if execution fails, it is still his vision that should be judged first.  (When you judge first on execution, you end up with guys like Andy Enfield or Tom Crean running your program.)

That said, you can only fail in execution so many times before your vision itself is deemed a failure.  After all, even a moron can score 25% on the SAT.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 25, 2019, 01:50:36 PMIt don't matta ta me if da coach is 4-26, wins da conference tourney, den goes on a 6 game Big Dance winnin' streak and is NCAA Champ. In my opinion, da dude is golden. Won in March and dat's how eye judge, hey?

These two things are not mutually exclusive.

The coaches that win the most regular-season games are also the coaches that win the most tournament games and national titles. Here are the 5 winningest active Division I coaches, ranked by career wins, along with how they've done in the NCAA tournament:

1. 1131  Mike Krzyzewski - 94 NCAA tournament wins (1st), 5 national titles
2. 946  Jim Boeheim - 60 NCAA wins (3rd), 1 national title
3. 871  Roy Williams - 77 NCAA wins (2nd), 3 national titles
4. 857  Bob Huggins - 33 NCAA wins (7th)
5. 707  John Calipari - 53 NCAA wins (4th), 1 national title

To have a chance to win in March, you have to win November through February.

Quote from: Cheeks on March 25, 2019, 09:40:23 AM
Call it what you will, it was emotional and hate is an emotion.

We've all been emotional and say odd things regarding MU athletics and Sports in general, yours truly included.  But when you do it over and over and over like you do, it sure feels like hatred...they aren't one offs.

Yeah I get emotional when we crap the bed like we did  but I don't hate Wojo
I dont even know the guy. But when I see crap like we played, that tells me the guy cant coach. He is overpaid and overrated ad a coach. Call that hate. But you and others should not throw those opinions around. But then again  it seems that happens a lot nowadays. Many simply call somebody a hater if that person has a different view
In my opinion, people that do that are snowflakes.