I will be the first to say that I am extremely disappointed in the performance today. That said, I am also very proud of players that represent Marquette University currently. By all accounts they go about things the right way on and off the court. The discussions here about Wojo, Buzz, Wardle etc...got me thinking. I feel Wojo is doing exactly what the BOT wants, with the cleanliness of the basketball program. I believe in that aspect, it is a breath of fresh air from the Buzz era. However, on the court there seems to be a general lack of toughness, athleticism and junkyard dog attitude, that we became accustom to during Buzz's tenure.
Is it possible in this day and age of college basketball to have both a clean program and a program full of players with those traits of a Buzz team (athleticism, switchables, toughness)? A few programs come to mind, most notably Villanova, but there really aren't many of them. This has me wondering if as a fan I need to make the decision if I want the program to win at all cost and deal with the drama off the court or have a squeaky clean program that doesn't win as much as I'd like.
My question to the board, is it possible for Marquette, in its current situation in the Big East, to find that balance of the Buzz era and the Wojo era?
A good question. Wojo has recruited good citizens with basketball skills. He got his clock cleaned today by faster kids. McEwen, Greg, and Akanno are for sure going to be at MU next year. Torrence, too, if Markus leaves, IMO. That will be a lot of big athletic guards. We will see if it makes a difference.
Quote from: tower912 on March 21, 2019, 08:08:13 PM
A good question. Wojo has recruited good citizens with basketball skills. He got his clock cleaned today by faster kids. McEwen, Greg, and Akanno are for sure going to be at MU next year. Torrence, too, if Markus leaves, IMO. That will be a lot of big athletic guards. We will see if it makes a difference.
I think tonight proved how far Markus is away from an NBA player.
Quote from: tower912 on March 21, 2019, 08:08:13 PM
A good question. Wojo has recruited good citizens with basketball skills. He got his clock cleaned today by faster kids. McEwen, Greg, and Akanno are for sure going to be at MU next year. Torrence, too, if Markus leaves, IMO. That will be a lot of big athletic guards. We will see if it makes a difference.
McEwen should start at point and Sacar come off bench. Can't go thru another season like this and turnovers by the guards. Markus will not leave, unless he wants to play in Europe early. Maybe this Akanno is a diamond in the rough find.
Realistic expectation? How about winning a dam ncaa game??? Five years a ZERO! Wojo has more resources then any other MU coach and this is what we get. If this was buzz or Creans first 4 or 5 years would they have been fired??? I think so.
You didn't answer the question. The question was, do we as fans have to sacrifice some squeaky clean for some off the court drama and more wins? Buzz and Wojo are complete opposites, Is there a middle ground, and is it possible at MU in this day and age to be squeaky clean and still have the athleticism and toughness that the current team is sorely missing?
Would rather be dirty and good than squeaky and s**^^y
Quote from: Ron Swanson on March 21, 2019, 08:28:22 PM
You didn't answer the question. The question was, do we as fans have to sacrifice some squeaky clean for some off the court drama and more wins? Buzz and Wojo are complete opposites, Is there a middle ground, and is it possible at MU in this day and age to be squeaky clean and still have the athleticism and toughness that the current team is sorely missing?
It has been asked and answered before. And I believe it is.
Lots of thoughts here...
It seems like schools with legit issues are the rarity, not the norm. Remember, there are over 350 college teams, and only a handful make the news each year.
Will athletes get themselves into trouble from time to time? Sure, they're college kids with bigger than normal egos. So there might be a fight here or there, or maybe drinking/drugs, but I don't see that as anything more than normal college kid stuff. For schools to have a zero tolerance policy seems over the top, in my opinion. There's definitely a big, and perfectly fine, middle ground between Louisville and Villanova.
Running a clean program and running a winning program are certainly not mutually exclusive. And breaking the rules doesn't all of a sudden make you any better. I think it's more of the concept that those willing to cheat or break the law are just more willing to do anything to win.
I think Buzz was successful because he was willing to take risks on kids that others passed up. That earned him a ton of loyalty and respect from his players. And it also showed that he was willing to take risks to win. Being too conservative can limit a coach at this level.
Quote from: tower912 on March 21, 2019, 08:35:39 PM
It has been asked and answered before. And I believe it is.
I am not so sure and I don't know what the logical argument is that it is possible, the only program that comes to mind is Villanova.....Even Coach K has dramatically changed the type of kids he recruits from the early days of Grant Hill, Bobby Hurley and Christian Laettner. He has had significantly more issues off the court in the last 10 years than he did the first 10 years. I believe he made that decision that it was worth it.......Unfortunately I believe MU will have to make that decision as well.
The issues during the buzz era were no different than many competitive programs with a few rough players that do stupid things off the court
Its kind of ironic that a catholic university is super concerned with having a squeaky clean athletic program when its very institution the RCC is a complete disaster of scandal that makes the 90s UNLV teams look like angels.
Quote from: Ron Swanson on March 21, 2019, 08:41:23 PM
I am not so sure and I don't know what the logical argument is that it is possible, the only program that comes to mind is Villanova.....Even Coach K has dramatically changed the type of kids he recruits from the early days of Grant Hill, Bobby Hurley and Christian Laettner. He has had significantly more issues off the court in the last 10 years than he did the first 10 years. I believe he made that decision that it was worth it.......Unfortunately I believe MU will have to make that decision as well.
What issues off the court?
Compete for a tourney berth most years and win a couple games in the tourney every couple years. Thus, not winning a game in how long is a disappointment. I'm not asking for a lot here.
Quote from: Guy Fieri's Dad on March 21, 2019, 08:34:32 PM
Would rather be dirty and good than squeaky and s**^^y
Find another program, university isn't going to go for that. Period.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on March 21, 2019, 08:42:46 PM
What issues off the court?
Corey Maggette, Marvin Bagley, Lance Thomas.....
Quote from: Guy Fieri's Dad on March 21, 2019, 08:34:32 PM
Would rather be dirty and good than squeaky and s**^^y
Haha wait.
Really? Is this where MU fans and MU grads are at mentally?
Today SUCKED BALLS. I get it. And I am annoyed.
But this... whoever agrees... can go F off dude. Seriously.
Quote from: Guy Fieri's Dad on March 21, 2019, 08:34:32 PM
Would rather be dirty and good than squeaky and s**^^y
Ps your son is a dumb looking idiot.
Quote from: Ron Swanson on March 21, 2019, 08:48:15 PM
Corey Maggette, Marvin Bagley, Lance Thomas.....
Corey Maggette was there in 1999. Bagley's family connections to Nike? Nike kids have been going to Duke for years
Quote from: Mike Deane's Seat Belt on March 21, 2019, 08:42:16 PM
The issues during the buzz era were no different than many competitive programs with a few rough players that do stupid things off the court
Its kind of ironic that a catholic university is super concerned with having a squeaky clean athletic program when its very institution the RCC is a complete disaster of scandal that makes the 90s UNLV teams look like angels.
Amen, Brother Mike.
Quote from: fjm on March 21, 2019, 08:49:19 PM
Ps your son is a dumb looking idiot.
Wow! I thought 13 year olds were only on Snapchat.
Quote from: Cheeks on March 21, 2019, 08:47:16 PM
Find another program, university isn't going to go for that. Period.
Which is why our university treads water
I don't wanna hear crap about Sacar being an elite defender. Wojo didn't even consider going man right from the start. If Sacar was elite he would have given him the opportunity from the get go. Listen, JA would have made a lot of people look silly, but not giving out "best" defender an opportunity to lock down out of the gates says a lot.
Quote from: jonny09 on March 21, 2019, 08:55:31 PM
I don't wanna hear crap about Sacar being an elite defender. Wojo didn't even consider going man right from the start. If Sacar was elite he would have given him the opportunity from the get go. Listen, JA would have made a lot of people look silly, but not giving out "best" defender an opportunity to lock down out of the gates says a lot.
+1000
Quote from: WhiteTrash on March 21, 2019, 08:54:03 PM
Wow! I thought 13 year olds were only on Snapchat.
Dude. Guy Fieri looks stupid as hell. No offense.
Realistic expectations?
1) Make NCAA's (almost) annually.
2) Mix in 2nd weekend every few years.
3) Mix in better than that every long while.
4) Top 5 league finish often.
5) Compete for league title every few years.
6) Better conference tourney results.
7) Competitive, successful results v rivals, big games.
8) Limit off court issues/problems...be good citizens, graduate players.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 21, 2019, 09:05:54 PM
Realistic expectations?
1) Make NCAA's (almost) annually.
2) Mix in 2nd weekend every few years.
3) Mix in better than that every long while.
4) Top 5 league finish often.
5) Compete for league title every few years.
6) Better conference tourney results.
7) Competitive, successful results v rivals, big games.
8) Limit off court issues/problems...be good citizens, graduate players.
This guy Gets it. .
Quote from: fjm on March 21, 2019, 08:58:24 PM
Dude. Guy Fieri looks stupid as hell. No offense.
Lol! Maybe but his net worth makes both of us look even stupider.
If I were to make a college football analogy...
Seems MU is taking a similar path to success as ND football. Holding the program to higher academic and conduct standards. Limits the recruiting pool and by correlation, the chances at success, as you won't allow some of the recruits a chance to make it to campus. ND wants to avoid the scandal that plague programs like Baylor.
So, I think you can run a clean program and have success. Just that your chances at "elite" success will be limited.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 21, 2019, 09:05:54 PM
Realistic expectations?
1) Make NCAA's (almost) annually.
2) Mix in 2nd weekend every few years.
3) Mix in better than that every long while.
4) Top 5 league finish often.
5) Compete for league title every few years.
6) Better conference tourney results.
7) Competitive, successful results v rivals, big games.
8) Limit off court issues/problems...be good citizens, graduate players.
I don't know that I care as much about players graduating as some. Our program wasn't tarnished by Wade leaving before he graduated. If we bring in guys that go pro, in the NBA or anywhere else, without graduating, I just don't see how that matters. It might be a nice PR plug, but is it really an important metric?
Personally, I'm much more concerned with the university's regular graduation rate being under 80%. Even worse, only about 60% of students have earned a degree in 4 years. Those are the numbers the administration should care about. Those are the numbers that actually dictate a school's quality and prestige. At least, that's how this alum feels.
Quote from: jonny09 on March 21, 2019, 08:55:31 PM
I don't wanna hear crap about Sacar being an elite defender. Wojo didn't even consider going man right from the start. If Sacar was elite he would have given him the opportunity from the get go. Listen, JA would have made a lot of people look silly, but not giving out "best" defender an opportunity to lock down out of the gates says a lot.
Trying to double with Joey was pointless-he didn't have a chance and ended up out of position repeatedly. Head scratcher for sure.
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 21, 2019, 09:41:44 PM
If I were to make a college football analogy...
Seems MU is taking a similar path to success as ND football. Holding the program to higher academic and conduct standards. Limits the recruiting pool and by correlation, the chances at success, as you won't allow some of the recruits a chance to make it to campus. ND wants to avoid the scandal that plague programs like Baylor.
So, I think you can run a clean program and have success. Just that your chances at "elite" success will be limited.
Agree 100% with your second paragraph.
You're first paragraph sounds like Badger apologist. MU nor UW have some unique acceptance requirements. We compete for great players with lower quality schools and loose frequently. Offers are made and money spent because they are MU quality. Kids like schools for different reasons. mostly the coach and facilities I believe.
As for Baylor, they are in a whole new class of dirty. Paying recruits is very bad but putting young women in harm's way and then running them out the University is horrific.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on March 21, 2019, 10:10:58 PM
Agree 100% with your second paragraph.
You're first paragraph sounds like Badger apologist. MU nor UW have some unique acceptance requirements. We compete for great players with lower quality schools and loose frequently. Offers are made and money spent because they are MU quality. Kids like schools for different reasons. mostly the coach and facilities I believe.
As for Baylor, they are in a whole new class of dirty. Paying recruits is very bad but putting young women in harm's way and then running them out the University is horrific.
Why? You don't think MU adminstration changed who they would accept as student-athletes after Buzz? The pool of candidates is smaller now.
Correct on Baylor. But you could throw in nearly any "dirty" school or coach and ND or MU don't want to be near that category.
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 21, 2019, 10:20:13 PM
Why? You don't think MU adminstration changed who they would accept as student-athletes after Buzz? The pool of candidates is smaller now.
Correct on Baylor. But you could throw in nearly any "dirty" school or coach and ND or MU don't want to be near that category.
They didn't change who they'd accept, they simply hired a guy they knew wouldn't take risks on those types of players. Zero drama with Wojo, but also zero postseason success. As long as he keeps filling the seats, his job is probably safe.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 21, 2019, 09:05:54 PM
Realistic expectations?
1) Make NCAA's (almost) annually.
2) Mix in 2nd weekend every few years.
3) Mix in better than that every long while.
4) Top 5 league finish often.
5) Compete for league title every few years.
6) Better conference tourney results.
7) Competitive, successful results v rivals, big games.
8) Limit off court issues/problems...be good citizens, graduate players.
Agreed with all eight. Wojo was given time to build the program back. These are now the expectations moving forward.
Quote from: skianth16 on March 21, 2019, 09:43:33 PM
I don't know that I care as much about players graduating as some. Our program wasn't tarnished by Wade leaving before he graduated. If we bring in guys that go pro, in the NBA or anywhere else, without graduating, I just don't see how that matters. It might be a nice PR plug, but is it really an important metric?
Personally, I'm much more concerned with the university's regular graduation rate being under 80%. Even worse, only about 60% of students have earned a degree in 4 years. Those are the numbers the administration should care about. Those are the numbers that actually dictate a school's quality and prestige. At least, that's how this alum feels.
On the first paragraph, I don't think anyone here or in the administration thinks a player leaving to go pro before graduating is a bad thing. I think they are more worried about them not graduating and not going pro.
On the second paragraph, I would use the six year gradation rate over the four year. More and more students every year are taking 5th and 6th years intentionally.
Quote from: Ron Swanson on March 21, 2019, 08:02:51 PM
I will be the first to say that I am extremely disappointed in the performance today. That said, I am also very proud of players that represent Marquette University currently. By all accounts they go about things the right way on and off the court. The discussions here about Wojo, Buzz, Wardle etc...got me thinking. I feel Wojo is doing exactly what the BOT wants, with the cleanliness of the basketball program. I believe in that aspect, it is a breath of fresh air from the Buzz era. However, on the court there seems to be a general lack of toughness, athleticism and junkyard dog attitude, that we became accustom to during Buzz's tenure.
Is it possible in this day and age of college basketball to have both a clean program and a program full of players with those traits of a Buzz team (athleticism, switchables, toughness)? A few programs come to mind, most notably Villanova, but there really aren't many of them. This has me wondering if as a fan I need to make the decision if I want the program to win at all cost and deal with the drama off the court or have a squeaky clean program that doesn't win as much as I'd like.
My question to the board, is it possible for Marquette, in its current situation in the Big East, to find that balance of the Buzz era and the Wojo era?
There is no question who my college team is: Marquette.
But to answer your question, yes, a school can field a team of highly skilled, athletic players who perform in the classroom, on the court, and in the world.
After a fifth crushingly disappointing end to a Wojo-coached season I turned my Dance attention to another alma mater.
Watching a John Beilein team play is a thing of beauty: skilled, drilled, athletic, and disciplined. These are high major student athletes who behave, study, and perform.
Beilein teams win with class, dignity, and consistency. Comparing John Beilein with Wojo makes clear just how far we are from making a Final Four an expectation rather than an unrealistic dream.
Sadly, it is once again the Maize and Blue rather than the Blue and Gold.
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 21, 2019, 09:41:44 PM
If I were to make a college football analogy...
Seems MU is taking a similar path to success as ND football. Holding the program to higher academic and conduct standards. Limits the recruiting pool and by correlation, the chances at success, as you won't allow some of the recruits a chance to make it to campus. ND wants to avoid the scandal that plague programs like Baylor.
So, I think you can run a clean program and have success. Just that your chances at "elite" success will be limited.
Are we really trying to convince ourselves of this BS excuse?
Quote from: Jon on March 21, 2019, 11:19:25 PM
There is no question who my college team is: Marquette.
But to answer your question, yes, a school can field a team of highly skilled, athletic players who perform in the classroom, on the court, and in the world.
After a fifth crushingly disappointing end to a Wojo-coached season I turned my Dance attention to another alma mater.
Watching a John Beilein team play is a thing of beauty: skilled, drilled, athletic, and disciplined. These are high major student athletes who behave, study, and perform.
Beilein teams win with class, dignity, and consistency. Comparing John Beilein with Wojo makes clear just how far we are from making a Final Four an expectation rather than an unrealistic dream.
Sadly, it is once again the Maize and Blue rather than the Blue and Gold.
Whether you like it or not you can't compare the two. Kids get seduced by the big school, football, joke majors for athletes (School of Sports Management), academic standards of "qualify and you're in," not even needing to go to class, the Big Ten. We're rarely going to outrecruit that. But I certainly don't want a return to the lawless atmosphere or the Buzz era.
Quote from: Jon on March 21, 2019, 11:19:25 PM
There is no question who my college team is: Marquette.
But to answer your question, yes, a school can field a team of highly skilled, athletic players who perform in the classroom, on the court, and in the world.
After a fifth crushingly disappointing end to a Wojo-coached season I turned my Dance attention to another alma mater.
Watching a John Beilein team play is a thing of beauty: skilled, drilled, athletic, and disciplined. These are high major student athletes who behave, study, and perform.
Beilein teams win with class, dignity, and consistency. Comparing John Beilein with Wojo makes clear just how far we are from making a Final Four an expectation rather than an unrealistic dream.
Sadly, it is once again the Maize and Blue rather than the Blue and Gold.
Remind me, didn't it take Beilein 6 years at Michigan to get past the first weekend? Even though he had 25 years of head coaching experience under his belt (15 years at the D1 level)? Didn't his 5th year team have an embarrassing early exit from the tourney? I think they lost to the 13 seed IIRC.
Good thing Michigan stuck it out.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 21, 2019, 11:29:17 PM
Whether you like it or not you can't compare the two. Kids get seduced by the big school, football, joke majors for athletes (School of Sports Management), academic standards of "qualify and you're in," not even needing to go to class, the Big Ten. We're rarely going to outrecruit that. But I certainly don't want a return to the lawless atmosphere or the Buzz era.
Give it a rest, Chico.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 21, 2019, 11:34:41 PM
Give it a rest, Chico.
Billy isn't Chico. Have you seen his political posts?
Quote from: shoothoops on March 21, 2019, 09:05:54 PM
Realistic expectations?
1) Make NCAA's (almost) annually.
2) Mix in 2nd weekend every few years.
3) Mix in better than that every long while.
4) Top 5 league finish often.
5) Compete for league title every few years.
6) Better conference tourney results.
7) Competitive, successful results v rivals, big games.
8) Limit off court issues/problems...be good citizens, graduate players.
Same. Very reasonable. Seems some expect less which is ok. Have any expectation you want. But I agree with you
.I would also add consistent top 20 team mostly.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 21, 2019, 11:29:17 PM
Whether you like it or not you can't compare the two. Kids get seduced by the big school, football, joke majors for athletes (School of Sports Management), academic standards of "qualify and you're in," not even needing to go to class, the Big Ten. We're rarely going to outrecruit that. But I certainly don't want a return to the lawless atmosphere or the Buzz era.
Michigan is an exceptional academic institution that doesn't mimeograph diplomas.
Do they have more options for athletes due to the size of the University alone? More course options? I know MU as a small liberal arts college and Schools like ND do not based on size alone. There is nowhere to hide.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 21, 2019, 11:33:04 PM
Remind me, didn't it take Beilein 6 years at Michigan to get past the first weekend? Even though he had 25 years of head coaching experience under his belt (15 years at the D1 level)? Didn't his 5th year team have an embarrassing early exit from the tourney? I think they lost to the 13 seed IIRC.
Good thing Michigan stuck it out.
Please.
After taking over from Amaker Beilein won a Big Ten Title in Year 5. And in Year 6 he took Michigan to the National Championship game.
Comparing Beilein's Year 5 Big Ten to this season's Big East is laughable. The top 7 schools in that Big Ten would have wiped the floor with this season's Nova and Marquette.
But I'll take your obtuse bait - Yea, Michigan gave Beilein a sixth season and he went to the Final Two. Something he did again last year. And has a high probability of doing yet again this season.
So, by your logic, Wojo should go to the National Championship game next season. If Wojo does that I will be thrilled. But let's be honest - there is a higher probability we don't make The Dance next year under Wojo than there is we make it to the Last Night.
Since you are so certain I have a Thousand Dollars that says we don't get to The Last Night next year under Wojo. Bet?
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on March 22, 2019, 12:22:05 AM
Do they have more options for athletes due to the size of the University alone? More course options? I know MU as a small liberal arts college and Schools like ND do not based on size alone. There is nowhere to hide.
UH..."Communication" Majors
Quote from: Jon on March 22, 2019, 12:14:53 AM
Michigan is an exceptional academic institution that doesn't mimeograph diplomas.
You mean other than General Studies or the School of Keneisology with Sports Management, which is almost all athletes? They have majors athletes are forced into (Harbaugh said so), MU does not. When I was at MU the hoops players were business majors because it had no foreign language requirement. They still had to take Theology and Philosophy.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 21, 2019, 11:39:43 PM
Billy isn't Chico. Have you seen his political posts?
Shhh, Lenny is so smart he knows all. Plus it just cracks me up he still believes it.
Quote from: Jon on March 22, 2019, 12:32:29 AM
Please.
After taking over from Amaker Beilein won a Big Ten Title in Year 5. And in Year 6 he took Michigan to the National Championship game.
Comparing Beilein's Year 5 Big Ten to this season's Big East is laughable. The top 7 schools in that Big Ten would have wiped the floor with this season's Nova and Marquette.
But I'll take your obtuse bait - Yea, Michigan gave Beilein a sixth season and he went to the Final Two. Something he did again last year. And has a high probability of doing yet again this season.
So, by your logic, Wojo should go to the National Championship game next season. If Wojo does that I will be thrilled. But let's be honest - there is a higher probability we don't make The Dance next year under Wojo than there is we make it to the Last Night.
Since you are so certain I have a Thousand Dollars that says we don't get to The Last Night next year under Wojo. Bet?
So, yes it did take Beilein 6 years to get out of the first weekend and he did have an embarrassing loss in the first round to a 13 seed in his fifth year. That's what I thought I remembered
Markus should look at Ja Morant to see what a real NBA prospect looks like