No, Markus did not "choke"
Yes, perhaps somethings could have been done differently by you couch coaches but..
In the game I was at last night, in those circumstances, all I can say is in the words of Coach Norman Dale in Hoosiers: For those of you on the floor at the end of the game I'm proud of you.
"
You're correct. He didn't choke. He played very poorly. He made several bad decisions.
If him being hurt is the reason for the bad performance, then he needs sit.
And let who play in his place? Particularly last night. And do you really want to try to get through the tourney without him?
#rationalthinkinginshortsupplyafteraloss
Quote from: tower912 on March 16, 2019, 03:30:13 PM
And let who play in his place? Particularly last night. And do you really want to try to get through the tourney without him?
#rationalthinkinginshortsupplyafteraloss
? How about letting the hot hand shoot? Watch the last seven seconds...explains it all.
Get through the tourney? You said yourself on multiple occasions that he's hurt.
We won't be getting "through the tourney" if your position is we are out of options.
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 16, 2019, 03:35:04 PM
? How about letting the hot hand shoot? Watch the last seven seconds...explains it all.
Get through the tourney? You said yourself on multiple occasions that he's hurt.
We won't be getting "through the tourney" if your position is we are out of options.
Who was the hot hand? Didn't see anyone being the hot hand for the last 3 minutes.
Quote from: Newsdreams on March 16, 2019, 03:42:57 PM
Who was the hot hand? Didn't see anyone being the hot hand for the last 3 minutes.
Hard to find one when the cold hand keeps shooting.
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 16, 2019, 03:35:04 PM
? How about letting the hot hand shoot? Watch the last seven seconds...explains it all.
Get through the tourney? You said yourself on multiple occasions that he's hurt.
We won't be getting "through the tourney" if your position is we are out of options.
Sam, covered. Ed, out near the 3 pt line. Choices, Bailey in the corner, Chartouny. Hmmmmmm.
Quote from: tower912 on March 16, 2019, 03:56:23 PM
Sam, covered. Ed, out near the 3 pt line. Choices, Bailey in the corner, Chartouny. Hmmmmmm.
Sam covered? Watch again. Markus drew the double...Sam was open for the win.
Hmmmmmm.
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 16, 2019, 04:01:11 PM
Sam covered? Watch again. Markus drew the double...Sam was open for the win.
Hmmmmmm.
No person Markus' height would be able to make that pass on time and the SHU player was ready to jump into the passing lane.
It's semantics. Choked. Played poorly. Was cold. Etc etc. He didn't deliver when his team needed him most. Their player did. Even Jim Jackson was saying it was Markus' form on those missed FTs not his wrist. It happens. No one "hates" Markus. It's not bashing. It's what it is. We move on. But I'm not making excuses for him.
Agreed, Sam was wide open. For Markus to be a great player, has to learn how to pass. To many turnovers, and when MU is down in last 5 minutes they stop running offense and play Markus ball. Due to ridiculous nature of the game, no baskets last 6 minutes. It has been a problem in all the loses.
Sam thought he was open.
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 16, 2019, 04:09:44 PM
Sam thought he was open.
Seemed to me that Markus decided he was shooting the ball as soon as he got it. And that's not the first time. I really wish he'd defer to Sam in end of game situations
Quote from: warriormom on March 16, 2019, 03:21:50 PM
No, Markus did not "choke"
Yes, perhaps somethings could have been done differently by you couch coaches but..
In the game I was at last night, in those circumstances, all I can say is in the words of Coach Norman Dale in Hoosiers: For those of you on the floor at the end of the game I'm proud of you.
"
You have to remember the 2 or 3 assholes here that are not Marquette fans that love to troll and say that about him. They are no way MU fans and I wish the mods would acknowledge that.
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 16, 2019, 04:01:11 PM
Sam covered? Watch again. Markus drew the double...Sam was open for the win.
Hmmmmmm.
No way, the pass would never get to Sam and be intercepted. BB was open, but I would rather take MH be BB at this point in their careers.
The injustice was done 20 minutes earlier with the ejections
Quote from: warriormom on March 16, 2019, 03:21:50 PM
No, Markus did not "choke"
Yes, perhaps somethings could have been done differently by you couch coaches but..
In the game I was at last night, in those circumstances, all I can say is in the words of Coach Norman Dale in Hoosiers: For those of you on the floor at the end of the game I'm proud of you.
"
Your thread was highkacked warriormom, but I'll give your post a much deserved +1000000000
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 16, 2019, 03:35:04 PM
? How about letting the hot hand shoot? Watch the last seven seconds...explains it all.
Get through the tourney? You said yourself on multiple occasions that he's hurt.
We won't be getting "through the tourney" if your position is we are out of options.
Hauser missed 5 of his last 6 shots....which hot hand did you want?
Wrong.
But, we'll never know.
Quote from: Cheeks on March 16, 2019, 04:19:47 PM
You have to remember the 2 or 3 pretty boys here that are not Marquette fans that love to troll and say that about him. They are no way MU fans and I wish the mods would acknowledge that.
Says Banny McBannerson.
Quote from: Cheeks on March 16, 2019, 04:35:02 PM
Hauser missed 5 of his last 6 shots....which hot hand did you want?
Your right go with 1-15.
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 16, 2019, 04:36:07 PM
Says Banny McBannerson.
I was banned, but not for being a fake Marquette troll that only comes here to rip on the team and coaches....that's the difference.
The whining about Markus by some on this board is gross. One of the best to ever wear the uniform and a person who represents the university extraordinarily well on and off the court.
It's safe to say he doesn't feel great about how the game went last night. It's also safe to say he gutted it out through pain to do everything he could to help the team win.
To say he didn't have his best night is fair. Some of the other remarks are cr@p and those making them are an embarrassment.
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 16, 2019, 04:36:57 PM
Your right go with 1-15.
You're
Tell me again about the hot hand...there weren't any
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 16, 2019, 04:35:26 PM
Wrong.
But, we'll never know.
We will never know, but I am wrong....all in the same response. Classic.
Quote from: Cheeks on March 16, 2019, 04:39:12 PM
You're
Tell me again about the hot hand...there weren't any
There were ice cold hands....it's relative.
Quote from: Cheeks on March 16, 2019, 04:39:12 PM
You're
Tell me again about the hot hand...there weren't any
Period at the end of a sentence.
Quote from: Cheeks on March 16, 2019, 04:40:01 PM
We will never know, but I am wrong....all in the same response. Classic.
Look at the photo again and tell me how you know that pass would have been intercepted?
Markus didn't pass the ball yo the open man.......therefore, we will never know.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 16, 2019, 04:38:58 PM
The whining about Markus by some on this board is gross. One of the best to ever wear the uniform and a person who represents the university extraordinarily well on and off the court.
It's safe to say he doesn't feel great about how the game went last night. It's also safe to say he gutted it out through pain to do everything he could to help the team win.
To say he didn't have his best night is fair. Some of the other remarks are cr@p and those making them are an embarrassment.
Superbly stated.
Markus is a true Warrior, and I'm thrilled to have had him on our team these last three years. He didn't have a good shooting game last night; that's unfortunate. But I guess all the points he scored in down the stretch/in OT against Creighton, Wisconsin, Buffalo, K-State, Nova, Louisville, Providence last year, etc etc etc, don't count.
Some Scoopers act as if they wanted it more or cared more or tried harder than the guys who gave their all on the court in a long, physical, intense game. Sad.
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 16, 2019, 04:09:44 PM
Sam thought he was open.
Thanks for posting for picture, I don't have that part of the game recorded. Your assessment of the situation is incorrect.
If Markus makes the pass there it is a turnover. They are baiting him into trying to throw the pass over the top of two defenders. His only option would be to pass fake and then bounce pass (if he is lucky and they bite on the pass). Even then, the tertiary defender is ready to jump that passing lane (still a turnover).
With the amount of time left at that point there are three possible outcomes from an attempted pass. 1) He tries to throw it over the top of the two defenders, likely stolen...best case scenario a tipped/deflected pass that limits shot opportunities. 2) He pass fakes, and can bounce pass it around. The tertiary defender either jumps the passing lane for a steal, or is on Sam like a blanket on the catch. 3) He tries the pump fake, they don't bite and now he is double teamed without a dribble and has to throw up a prayer.
Option 4. He attacks the defender in front of him and takes a step back 3 going left, his highest percentage shot.
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 16, 2019, 04:48:01 PM
Look at the photo again and tell me how you know that pass would have been intercepted?
Markus didn't pass the ball yo the open man.......therefore, we will never know.
Who cares? The team's best shooter got a good look. Just didn't fall. Not sure what else you want there.
If your point is Markus should stop shooting, well, that's a bad take. You think Steve Kerr ever tells Steph or Klay to stop shooting? Think D'Antoni ever tells Harden not to shoot? Gotta let your shooters shoot.
This is stupid. I want my shooter shooting, not trying to pass through a covered passing lane: 1) Because the passing lane was covered, and 2) Because Marcus is a much better shooter than passer.
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 16, 2019, 04:48:01 PM
Look at the photo again and tell me how you know that pass would have been intercepted?
Markus didn't pass the ball yo the open man.......therefore, we will never know.
2.4 seconds left there, he has to get it through / over two guys, including one that is right on him plus a third guy at top of the key to close out if the pass gets on Sam who is currently 40 feet away from the rim.
Quote from: connie on March 16, 2019, 05:23:54 PM
This is stupid. I want my shooter shooting, not trying to pass through a covered passing lane: 1) Because the passing lane was covered, and 2) Because Marcus is a much better shooter than passer.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/FlYgLKL0RuKli/giphy.gif)
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 16, 2019, 04:09:44 PM
Sam thought he was open.
And you think Markus has a lane to get that ball to Sam? He could have lobbed it over there and the SH defender picks it off.
Quote from: MUeagle1090 on March 16, 2019, 05:29:06 PM
And you think Markus has a lane to get that ball to Sam? He could have lobbed it over there and the SH defender picks it off.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/lptwTtIUnnOGDL7zLn/giphy.gif)
Quote from: connie on March 16, 2019, 05:23:54 PM
This is stupid. I want my shooter shooting, not trying to pass through a covered passing lane: 1) Because the passing lane was covered, and 2) Because Marcus is a much better shooter than passer.
Many times during the game when we need a bucket out of a dead ball it goes to Sam....more so then Markus. That says something.
Amazing to see Sam jumping around calling for the ball with someone in the passing lane that was going to steal the ball. Thought he was smarter then that.
You are correct that Markus is a better shooter then passer...even on a 1-15 shooting night. It's too bad we dont have a PG and Markus is put in a position he cant play well consistently.
Maybe Markus could've gotten it to Sam, maybe not. And if he gets it there, maybe Sam hits the shot, maybe not.
But at the end of the game when the BE POY has an open look, I am fine with him taking the shot regardless of what happened the previous 39:59.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 16, 2019, 04:38:58 PM
The whining about Markus by some on this board is gross. One of the best to ever wear the uniform and a person who represents the university extraordinarily well on and off the court.
It's safe to say he doesn't feel great about how the game went last night. It's also safe to say he gutted it out through pain to do everything he could to help the team win.
To say he didn't have his best night is fair. Some of the other remarks are cr@p and those making them are an embarrassment.
The only different thing I'd have preferred Markus do was drive to the hoop. Take it to OT. Refs were calling everything on SH they'd have avoided contact. MU would have had a significant advantage in OT as they had no team left. But, I thought the ball was going in. Get some Chryo and acupuncture on the wrist and get going next week.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 16, 2019, 06:49:48 PM
The only different thing I'd have preferred Markus do was drive to the hoop. Take it to OT. Refs were calling everything on SH they'd have avoided contact. MU would have had a significant advantage in OT as they had no team left. But, I thought the ball was going in. Get some Chryo and acupuncture on the wrist and get going next week.
I would have preferred that too but once Ed set a bad screen attempt, there was no time. Markus launched with less than a second left.
So, my favorite Marcus moment last night was when he hurt his wrist. (Not that it happened) His reaction was to move to the corner away from the ball taking his defender with him and out of the play. Even in pain he did what was best for the team.
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 16, 2019, 04:48:01 PM
Look at the photo again and tell me how you know that pass would have been intercepted?
Markus didn't pass the ball yo the open man.......therefore, we will never know.
To make that pass, Markus is going to have to stop, jump, turn to his right and throw a dart, all before he takes another dribble, because the player in the lane is starting to make his move toward Sam, to get into the passing lane. The ONLY way that pass happens is if Markus is able to throw a left handed wrap around baseball pass sometime in his next step. By the time he got to where the photo was taken.
Quote from: tower912 on March 16, 2019, 07:31:35 PM
To make that pass, Markus is going to have to stop, jump, turn to his right and throw a dart, all before he takes another dribble, because the player in the lane is starting to make his move toward Sam, to get into the passing lane. The ONLY way that pass happens is if Markus is able to throw a left handed wrap around baseball pass sometime in his next step. By the time he got to where the photo was taken.
Hahaha—left handed baseball pass?
Orrrrrrr....he jump stops and makes the correct pass. But the left handed, wrap around, in step pass sounds awesome.
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 16, 2019, 07:52:26 PM
Hahaha—left handed baseball pass?
Orrrrrrr....he jump stops and makes the correct pass. But the left handed, wrap around, in step pass sounds awesome.
With the amount of time left (once he crossed half court) a pass there would be silly. Time would have ran out. A play getting Sam or someone else for a three would need to be executed from the inbound. Markus very clearly was taking the last shot the moment he started moseying his way up the court.
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 16, 2019, 07:52:26 PM
Hahaha—left handed baseball pass?
Orrrrrrr....he jump stops and makes the correct pass. But the left handed, wrap around, in step pass sounds awesome.
And when that fails to get there in time folks scream why didn't he take the shot....it never ends.
And so it continues. You couch coaches back and forth about what should have happened, slamming our players. And yes many of you are bashing them. Now I remember why I ignored this board for years. You are a bunch of immature tools
Quote from: Cheeks on March 16, 2019, 08:03:33 PM
And when that fails to get there in time folks scream why didn't he take the shot....it never ends.
And yet others cheer for other teams.
Quote from: Cheeks on March 16, 2019, 08:03:33 PM
And when that fails to get there in time folks scream why didn't he take the shot....it never ends.
My only problem with the last 6 seconds was that Markus didn't push the ball as fast as I would have liked. But that isn't much of a complaint because he got a good look, he just missed it. I'd have rather that Sam took the last shot, but it is a lot easier for Markus to get himself a shot than it is for Sam. And he got a good one.
Quote from: warriormom on March 16, 2019, 08:49:59 PM
And so it continues. You couch coaches back and forth about what should have happened, slamming our players. And yes many of you are bashing them. Now I remember why I ignored this board for years. You are a bunch of immature tools
To be fair, it is an internet fan message board. You're just as likely to be called a "Wojo-apologist" as you are a "Markus basher." And as great as Markus is, his game has significant holes. I agree that we should spend as much time appreciating his greatness as we do wishing he would grow 4 inches and handle the ball like Curly Neal, but I do understand fans wanting him to be even better.
But MUSCOOP would be boring if everyone was upbeat all the time.
The sound of a thousand golf claps is the sound of the death of the marketplace (got that from Star Wars).
I agree in most cases. But that game/loss was so heartbreakingly horrible that reading posters piling on these kids is hard to read. Just my opinion but maybe being there in person and seeing them made it harder to bear
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 16, 2019, 09:16:04 PM
And yet others cheer for other teams.
Such as? My other alma maters....yup...but way behind MU. Not close.
Quote from: CTWarrior on March 16, 2019, 09:24:44 PM
My only problem with the last 6 seconds was that Markus didn't push the ball as fast as I would have liked. But that isn't much of a complaint because he got a good look, he just missed it. I'd have rather that Sam took the last shot, but it is a lot easier for Markus to get himself a shot than it is for Sam. And he got a good one.
I agree, he was surveying a little longer than I'd like, but easy for me to say watching on tv.
Quote from: Cheeks on March 17, 2019, 09:20:48 AM
Such as? My other alma maters....yup...but way behind MU. Not close.
Why are you assuming this is about you?
Quote from: CTWarrior on March 16, 2019, 09:24:44 PM
My only problem with the last 6 seconds was that Markus didn't push the ball as fast as I would have liked. But that isn't much of a complaint because he got a good look, he just missed it. I'd have rather that Sam took the last shot, but it is a lot easier for Markus to get himself a shot than it is for Sam. And he got a good one.
I think he was taking his time because MH knew the play.
Quote from: Cheeks on March 17, 2019, 09:20:48 AM
Such as? My other alma maters....yup...but way behind MU. Not close.
You actively rooted against your "favorite" alma mater for 6 years. Went after the coach and players personally, named called, promised scandal that never materialized, etc., etc., etc.
Meanwhile you've been all over the board lecturing folks about what being a good fan means. Sweet irony.
Quote from: warriormom on March 17, 2019, 09:08:25 AM
I agree in most cases. But that game/loss was so heartbreakingly horrible that reading posters piling on these kids is hard to read. Just my opinion but maybe being there in person and seeing them made it harder to bear
Piling on kids is one thing (there are a few trolls who post emotionally), but many of the posters above are really talking strategy and situationals. Posting intent is often hard to figure out in a forum, especially where humor, emotion, context, or slight critiques are taken 100% as literal.
I remember on here I was making a fine point that Derrick Wilson should have not given Rotnei Clarke the sideline in Maui and forced him to his left as it took his momentum away from the basket and would decrease his accuracy. I was skewered as evil for ripping the kid personally (which I didn't), especially on a miracle shot. But, this was a point in actuality that Rick Majerus told me that he learned from Dean Smith—don't give a right handed shooter the sideline on a last second shot as they use their momentum and that space to fall toward the basket.
Fast forward to the NCAA's and MU beats Butler and Buzz said the key versus Butler in Maui was that they forced Clarke to the left where he was less accurate. A little nuance in two close games.
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 17, 2019, 09:32:58 AM
I think he was taking his time because MH knew the play. decided he was going to shoot as soon as he got the ball
Fixed it. That's the problem I had with the last play. Everyone saying Markus couldn't have passed it to Sam without it getting picked off aren't considering Markus could've gotten the ball to him much earlier and the way he'd been shooting absolutely should've considered it.
Quote from: NickelDimer on March 17, 2019, 09:35:53 AM
Fixed it. That's the problem I had with the last play. Everyone saying Markus couldn't have passed it to Sam without it getting picked off aren't considering Markus could've gotten the ball to him much earlier and the way he'd been shooting absolutely should've considered it.
This is where we disagree. Off night or not, Markus is Marquette's best shooter, scorer and free throw maker, and you absolutely want the ball in his hands if he can get an open look. There's no such thing as a conditional green light for a player like Markus. Sometimes that means an ugly night, but you live with that because more often you're getting 30+ out of the kid.
If that shot falls, nobody here would be griping about the shot selection or saying he should have passed the ball to Sam.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 17, 2019, 09:42:44 AM
This is where we disagree. Off night or not, Markus is Marquette's best shooter, scorer and free throw maker, and you absolutely want the ball in his hands if he can get an open look. There's no such thing as a conditional green light for a player like Markus. Sometimes that means an ugly night, but you live with that because more often you're getting 30+ out of the kid.
If that shot falls, nobody here would be griping about the shot selection or saying he should have passed the ball to Sam.
Have we seen Markus make that shot ever? I get what you're saying and on principal it's correct but we've seen him take that shot multiple times. I can't think of a time he's made one. He's on record as saying during practice Sam is the one who routinely hits that and we saw him do it at CU this season. He deserves to have the ball in that situation as much as Markus imo. And he was literally begging for it and not for the first time this year
Quote from: NickelDimer on March 17, 2019, 09:35:53 AM
Fixed it. That's the problem I had with the last play. Everyone saying Markus couldn't have passed it to Sam without it getting picked off aren't considering Markus could've gotten the ball to him much earlier and the way he'd been shooting absolutely should've considered it.
Well that's exactly it. The final shot was already decided upon inbounding. And without a timeout, I'm guessing Wojo's assuming that Markus is running down court and chucking a three anyway. I think if we had a timeout things would have been different. I'd love to see Markus get the ball to Sam for a winning three. Maybe it will happen in the NCAA tournament.
Quote from: NickelDimer on March 17, 2019, 09:49:21 AM
Have we seen Markus make that shot ever? I get what you're saying and on principal it's correct but we've seen him take that shot multiple times. I can't think of a time he's made one. He's on record as saying during practice Sam is the one who routinely hits that and we saw him do it at CU this season. He deserves to have the ball in that situation as much as Markus imo. And he was literally begging for it and not for the first time this year
Have we seen Markus make a contested 3? Yeah, a couple of times.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 17, 2019, 09:51:46 AM
Have we seen Markus make a contested 3? Yeah, a couple of times.
You really thought that's what I was asking? End of game situations. I can't remember him hitting one
Quote from: Pakuni on March 17, 2019, 09:42:44 AM
This is where we disagree. Off night or not, Markus is Marquette's best shooter, scorer and free throw maker, and you absolutely want the ball in his hands if he can get an open look. There's no such thing as a conditional green light for a player like Markus. Sometimes that means an ugly night, but you live with that because more often you're getting 30+ out of the kid.
If that shot falls, nobody here would be griping about the shot selection or saying he should have passed the ball to Sam.
At what point would you have your injured player not shoot? Seems like never from your response above.
What if he was 0-20 or 1-23? Still shoot?
He is our best shooter. He is one of the best FT shooters in the country. But when your 90+% FT shooter has uncharacteristicly missed 6 FTs in one game....you want him shooting FTs? I bet MH hasn't missed that many FTs since grade school.
I love MH. But, you need to defer sometimes and do other things when ball is not falling.
Quote from: warriormom on March 16, 2019, 03:21:50 PM
No, Markus did not "choke"
Yes, perhaps somethings could have been done differently by you couch coaches but..
In the game I was at last night, in those circumstances, all I can say is in the words of Coach Norman Dale in Hoosiers: For those of you on the floor at the end of the game I'm proud of you.
"
+1
I thought Markus had a good look and just missed it. It happens; I'm over it. Looking forward to the NCAAs.
Quote from: NickelDimer on March 17, 2019, 09:35:53 AM
Fixed it. That's the problem I had with the last play. Everyone saying Markus couldn't have passed it to Sam without it getting picked off aren't considering Markus could've gotten the ball to him much earlier and the way he'd been shooting absolutely should've considered it.
When I said Markus knew the play........I was inferring that the play was that he was going to shoot. No other option.
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 17, 2019, 10:01:17 AM
When I said Markus knew the play........I was inferring that the play was that he was going to shoot. No other option.
Gotcha. Totally agree. I think it's part of Markus evolution. He's gotten really really good at trusting his teammates and getting them looks particularly early in games, but end of games he has a one track mind.
Quote from: NickelDimer on March 17, 2019, 09:53:19 AM
You really thought that's what I was asking? End of game situations. I can't remember him hitting one
Last year, at Providence Markus made a driving 3-point play with under 30 to play to send the game into OT.
But really, who cares? If your question pertains exclusively to last-second shots, I can't think of any, but it's such a tiny sample size that it's meaningless.
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 17, 2019, 09:55:25 AM
At what point would you have your injured player not shoot? Seems like never from your response above.
What if he was 0-20 or 1-23? Still shoot?
He is our best shooter. He is one of the best FT shooters in the country. But when your 90+% FT shooter has uncharacteristicly missed 6 FTs in one game....you want him shooting FTs? I bet MH hasn't missed that many FTs since grade school.
I love MH. But, you need to defer sometimes and do other things when ball is not falling.
Never is correct.
Shooter's gotta shoot if there's a good look. And there was a good look. The day Markus Howard is so lacking in confidence that he's deferring to other players when he's got a good look is the day Marquette is really screwed.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 17, 2019, 10:08:04 AM
Last year, at Providence Markus made a driving 3-point play with under 30 to play to send the game into OT.
But really, who cares? If your question pertains exclusively to last-second shots, I can't think of any, but it's such a tiny sample size that it's meaningless.
Point is he's not the only player capable of taking and making that shot. So I disagree with your position that he's the one to take it, and on a night where he clearly didn't have it the right play was to get the ball to Sam
Wouldn't trade Markus for the world.
We are truly spoiled.
Look at EVERY OTHER TEAM in the country and tell me 10 people you would rather have shoot that ball...
351 teams, and I'm asking 10 players who you'd rather have shoot.
That's 1,755 starters.
I'll start:
Zion (but he'd have to be in the post... or at least closer so that doesn't count)
Maybe the kid from Murray state?
Proud of Markus. Proud of our team.
GO MU!
Quote from: NickelDimer on March 17, 2019, 10:12:04 AM
Point is he's not the only player capable of taking and making that shot. So I disagree with your position that he's the one to take it, and on a night where he clearly didn't have it the right play was to get the ball to Sam
Who said either of these things?
To be clear, I'd have no problem with Sam taking the shot either. I'm just not whining over the fact that Markus took the shot. I don't believe he's selfish for having taken the shot. And I don't believe it was a bad decision to take the shot.
If he'd pulled up from 40 feet with a hand in his face, it would be a bad decision. If he recklessly drove into a body and tossed up a prayer hoping to draw a foul , it would be a bad decision. Markus Howard shooting a clean three is
never a bad decision.
And again, if that ball drops through the net, not one of you are complaining about the shot selection.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 17, 2019, 10:17:31 AM
Who said either of these things?
To be clear, I'd have no problem with Sam taking the shot either. I'm just not whining over the fact that Markus took the shot. I don't believe he's selfish for having taken the shot. And I don't believe it was a bad decision to take the shot.
If he'd pulled up from 40 feet with a hand in his face, it would be a bad decision. If he recklessly drove into a body and tossed up a prayer hoping to draw a foul , it would be a bad decision. Markus Howard shooting a clean three is never a bad decision.
And again, if that ball drops through the net, not one of you are complaining about the shot selection.
This post sure made it sound like that's what you were saying. We agree on the rest of your point.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 17, 2019, 09:42:44 AM
This is where we disagree. Off night or not, Markus is Marquette's best shooter, scorer and free throw maker, and you absolutely want the ball in his hands if he can get an open look. There's no such thing as a conditional green light for a player like Markus. Sometimes that means an ugly night, but you live with that because more often you're getting 30+ out of the kid.
If that shot falls, nobody here would be griping about the shot selection or saying he should have passed the ball to Sam.
Quote from: NickelDimer on March 17, 2019, 10:23:22 AM
This post sure made it sound like that's what you were saying. We agree on the rest of your point.
Saying you want the ball in his hands in that situation is not the same as saying no one else is capable of taking that shot.
If, for example, Steve Kerr were to say he wants the ball in Curry's hands at the end of a close game, I wouldn't take that to mean he believes Durant and Klay are incapable of making end-of-game shots.
If, on the other hand, Steve Kerr were to say he believes Steph ought to pass up a clear shot at the end of the game, I would suggest that Steve Kerr is a crazy person.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 17, 2019, 10:12:03 AM
Never is correct.
Shooter's gotta shoot if there's a good look. And there was a good look. The day Markus Howard is so lacking in confidence that he's deferring to other players when he's got a good look is the day Marquette is really screwed.
If a shooter goes 0-20 in a game, I want someone else shooting the last shot. I guess we have different opinions on that.
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 17, 2019, 09:31:42 AM
Why are you assuming this is about you?
You quoted me with your response and replied directly to me....no assumption was needed, I simply read what you wrote.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 17, 2019, 09:33:38 AM
You actively rooted against your "favorite" alma mater for 6 years. Went after the coach and players personally, named called, promised scandal that never materialized, etc., etc., etc.
Meanwhile you've been all over the board lecturing folks about what being a good fan means. Sweet irony.
So much bullshyte here it is incredible. I never rooted against my alma mater ever. Absolute stone cold bullshyte.
Why did I bother spending all the money to go to NCAA tournament games in Arizona, San Jose, etc? Why did I bother flying to Milwaukee, New York, etc to cheer the team on? Complete bullshyte And you know it.
You can love your country and hate the leaders of it, just as you can love your school and basketball program and find the coach to be an absolute scum bag. Not that hard.
I went after players personally....I did say we collectively choked in a few games, and apologized for it. Let me know when the folks here apologize for their comments as I did.
Failed to materialize....oh I don't think so. He gone.
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 17, 2019, 10:31:00 AM
If a shooter goes 0-20 in a game, I want someone else shooting the last shot. I guess we have different opinions on that.
If Markus Howard goes 0-20 in a game, I won't bash him for taking the last shot when he has a good look. I guess we have different opinions on that.
All this grinding in Markus....Sam was 1 of his final 6 including missing what was probably a one footer.
It's funny watching people assume anyone else was going to make it. No one knows.
Quote from: Cheeks on March 17, 2019, 10:51:02 AM
You quoted me with your response and replied directly to me....no assumption was needed, I simply read what you wrote.
I asked why you think "others" means you exclusively?
Quote from: Pakuni on March 17, 2019, 10:57:17 AM
If Markus Howard goes 0-20 in a game, I won't bash him for taking the last shot when he has a good look. I guess we have different opinions on that.
No doubt.
Quote from: Cheeks on March 17, 2019, 10:53:57 AM
You can love your country and hate the leaders of it, just as you can love your school and basketball program and find the coach to be an absolute scum bag. Not that hard.
So it was fine for you to hate Buzz and root for MU, but it's not okay for people to dislike Wojo and root for MU. Got it.
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 17, 2019, 11:13:02 AM
I asked why you think "others" means you exclusively?
This is the first time you used the word exclusively and I'm not sure how you can say other
s and now say exclusively. You replied to me and quoted my response. You've been on this ridiculous train that I cheer for UW-madison when I am the one here the coined the hyphen stuff years ago and have bashed them for well over a decade, but that's the road you usually go down. I helped put together the Bo Ryan video to Green Day "listen to me whine" years ago that had some fun viral moments....but yeah, I'm a UW-madison fan. Good Lord.
Quote from: Research Report on March 17, 2019, 11:28:42 AM
So it was fine for you to hate Buzz and root for MU, but it's not okay for people to dislike Wojo and root for MU. Got it.
It's fine if you dislike Wojo. Go for it.
I know Wojo won't have us in trouble with NCAA rules or the Milwaukee police department, let alone splashed on the front pages of the Midwest's largest newspaper....you want to criticize his X's and O's, by all means go for it. You think he is milquetoast and not the right leader, go for it.
It would be nice, however, if they could offer some praise once in awhile. I didn't like Buzz for many reasons which are well known, but I still to this day say he is a very good coach, said often he should have been coach of the year his second season. Etc, etc. There are folks here that ALL THEY DO is rip on coach and player, 100%. That's the difference in my opinion.
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 16, 2019, 04:09:44 PM
Sam thought he was open.
So you think #2 is there as a coincidence? He is there because he is anticipating the pass. Once he sees pass is not an option he commits to Howard, smart D.
? #2 was guarding Ed and sagging off to help on Markus' crossover.
He is not there anticipating the pass...he is defending Ed and watching for him to cut to the basket and then boxes him out.
There is no indication he even knows that Sam is even there, much less jumping the pass.
#13 sees that Sam is open and comes over to help late, and he certainly wasn't going to be able to steal the pass.
7.2 seconds left and MH spent too much time dribbling up the court.
Regardless, I'm done with this topic.
Selection Sunday!
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 17, 2019, 11:51:44 AM
? #2 was guarding Ed and sagging off to help on Markus' crossover.
He is not there anticipating the pass...he is defending Ed and watching for him to cut to the basket and then boxes him out.
There is no indication he even knows that Sam is even there, much less jumping the pass.
#13 sees that Sam is open and comes over to help late, and he certainly wasn't going to be able to steal the pass.
7.2 seconds left and MH spent too much time dribbling up the court.
Regardless, I'm done with this topic.
Selection Sunday!
2.4 seconds left when Sam says he is open. Requires cross court pass by 5'11 guard through two players and a third playing center field. To a guy that has missed 5 of his last 6 shots.
Quote from: We R Final Four on March 17, 2019, 11:51:44 AM
? #2 was guarding Ed and sagging off to help on Markus' crossover.
He is not there anticipating the pass...he is defending Ed and watching for him to cut to the basket and then boxes him out.
There is no indication he even knows that Sam is even there, much less jumping the pass.
#13 sees that Sam is open and comes over to help late, and he certainly wasn't going to be able to steal the pass.
7.2 seconds left and MH spent too much time dribbling up the court.
Regardless, I'm done with this topic.
Selection Sunday!
Lol no one is going to guard Ed where he is, he took himself out of the final play by that point. #2 was ready to jump on that pass as they did for about 3 turnovers throughout the game. Yes selection Sunday.
An awful lot of posts on this topic. Seriously, Markus should take that shot and should every time. I am not in the camp of Howard being an all time MU great, but come on. He is the best scorer in school history and won many games for MU off that skill.
Guys can look at all the film they want and make armchair coach comments, but IMO they are misguided. Between the refs and last shot I think a lot was missed by folks on here.
Two things stood out to me, SH has better skilled players than MU. They have a more complete group of pieces than MU. Secondly, the boys almost stole a game against all odds stacked against them. While I wish we had more pieces, I was impressed they hung tough.
Lastly, Howard has been a very good college player for MU. Not my kind of player, but very good no matter your type of player. Any criticism of last play would fall into Wojo's lap from my POV. He has yet to show me that he is a game coach.
Exactly Goose. Shooters should keep shooting. And with antything less than 8 seconds on the game clock to go full court, there is no time to pass. Plus, he created an open look.
I do enjoy everyone's thoughts, though. All sides have interesting angles. To me, the reality of the clock means it's star time.
This is not intended as bashing, but I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion about Wojo's decision to leave Joey in after he picked up his third. That was the biggest mistake Wojo made all game IMO. Joey was having a nice game offensively at that point, but a Freshman, in his second career game at MSG, I'm not sure I'd trust him enough not to pick up his fourth right away, which is exactly what he did. Wojo sat Sacar for the entirety of the 1st half after he picked up two, but stuck with Joey after he picked up his third early in the 2nd. Questionable decision that was multiplied by losing two players shortly thereafter.
Quote from: Its DJOver on March 17, 2019, 12:39:53 PM
This is not intended as bashing, but I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion about Wojo's decision to leave Joey in after he picked up his third. That was the biggest mistake Wojo made all game IMO. Joey was having a nice game offensively at that point, but a Freshman, in his second career game at MSG, I'm not sure I'd trust him enough not to pick up his fourth right away, which is exactly what he did. Wojo sat Sacar for the entirety of the 1st half after he picked up two, but stuck with Joey after he picked up his third early in the 2nd. Questionable decision that was multiplied by losing two players shortly thereafter.
I agree, that was a risk and it didn't pan out for Wojo or team.
It was a risk. He rolled the dice and lost. Wojo sits Joey there and MU gets to the line up that finished the game or gives more minutes to Cain.
Quote from: Its DJOver on March 17, 2019, 12:39:53 PM
This is not intended as bashing, but I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion about Wojo's decision to leave Joey in after he picked up his third. That was the biggest mistake Wojo made all game IMO. Joey was having a nice game offensively at that point, but a Freshman, in his second career game at MSG, I'm not sure I'd trust him enough not to pick up his fourth right away, which is exactly what he did. Wojo sat Sacar for the entirety of the 1st half after he picked up two, but stuck with Joey after he picked up his third early in the 2nd. Questionable decision that was multiplied by losing two players shortly thereafter.
I understand what you're saying and it's a fair question, but it's also incumbent on Joey there not to pick up his fourth foul less than a minute after picking up his third. Silly frosh mistake. Generally, having a player with three fouls on the court early in the second half isn't especially risky.
In hindsight, though, it worked out poorly and perhaps more caution was warranted.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 17, 2019, 02:20:54 PM
I understand what you're saying and it's a fair question, but it's also incumbent on Joey there not to pick up his fourth foul less than a minute after picking up his third. Silly frosh mistake. Generally, having a player with three fouls on the court early in the second half isn't especially risky.
In hindsight, though, it worked out poorly and perhaps more caution was warranted.
Of course Joey should know better, but a Freshman shouldn't be put in that position unless absolutely necessary. Wojo played extremely conservatively with Sacar after he got 2 in the 1st half. He rolled the dice on Theo for the last minute of the 1st half, and got burned, and he rolled the dice on Joey in the 1st minute of the 2nd half, and got burned.
Hindsight is always 20-20, but if you pull Joey as soon as he gets his third, you can put him in immediately after the ejections, rather having to roll with Chartouny and Bailey for an extended period of time. Wojo obviously didn't know the ejections were going to happen, but it was strange to be so protective of Sacar, and roll the dice with both Theo, and Joey, especially with so much time remaining in the game.
Quote from: Its DJOver on March 17, 2019, 02:41:04 PM
Of course Joey should know better, but a Freshman shouldn't be put in that position unless absolutely necessary. Wojo played extremely conservatively with Sacar after he got 2 in the 1st half. He rolled the dice on Theo for the last minute of the 1st half, and got burned, and he rolled the dice on Joey in the 1st minute of the 2nd half, and got burned.
Hindsight is always 20-20, but if you pull Joey as soon as he gets his third, you can put him in immediately after the ejections, rather having to roll with Chartouny and Bailey for an extended period of time. Wojo obviously didn't know the ejections were going to happen, but it was strange to be so protective of Sacar, and roll the dice with both Theo, and Joey, especially with so much time remaining in the game.
Perhaps Wojo also realized Sacar had a technical. And to hopefully avoid any incident that might lead to a 2nd tech (since things were already chippy), he was more protective of Sacar than if Sacar would merely have had 2 personal fouls.
L:ook, I was as disappointed as anyone at the sh*tfest that was the Seton Hall game. But here is the reality:
1) Our guys played their hearts out. I saw hustle. I saw guys trying and we were within a moment or two of overcoming all the adversity in that game. Do you really believe even a year ago, we could have done that? I've seen growth. We've improved and while there is work to do, you see these guys grow as players and Coach Wojo as a coach.
2) They're college kids. They make mistakes. Give 'em slack for it. If it was the Milwaukee Bucks, I might expect a different outcome. But....
3) If our season was on the line and we were a bubble team, I might feel differently. But Coach Wojo said it best in press conference: "We're going to the NCAA! We have work left to do." In the greater scheme of things, Seton Hall meant very little to us.
4) We're going to Jacksonville... right 8-) !!!!!!!
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 17, 2019, 03:26:30 PM
Perhaps Wojo also realized Sacar had a technical. And to hopefully avoid any incident that might lead to a 2nd tech (since things were already chippy), he was more protective of Sacar than if Sacar would merely have had 2 personal fouls.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Even with Sacar sitting, Powell didn't do much in the 1st half, I believe he only had 4 points. If Powell started heating up, I think you would've seen Sacar back in the 1st half.
Wojo generally has a pretty good feel about when he can trust players to play without fouling, but he missed bad on multiple occasions. What was the worst thing that could've happened if you put Matt in? He fumbles a rebound and then commits a foul? Well that's exactly what Sam and Theo did, only it was more costly because it was Theo's third and only would have been Matt's first.
Quote from: Goose on March 17, 2019, 12:18:42 PM
An awful lot of posts on this topic. Seriously, Markus should take that shot and should every time. I am not in the camp of Howard being an all time MU great, but come on. He is the best scorer in school history and won many games for MU off that skill.
Guys can look at all the film they want and make armchair coach comments, but IMO they are misguided. Between the refs and last shot I think a lot was missed by folks on here.
Two things stood out to me, SH has better skilled players than MU. They have a more complete group of pieces than MU. Secondly, the boys almost stole a game against all odds stacked against them. While I wish we had more pieces, I was impressed they hung tough.
Lastly, Howard has been a very good college player for MU. Not my kind of player, but very good no matter your type of player. Any criticism of last play would fall into Wojo's lap from my POV. He has yet to show me that he is a game coach.
Goose, I agree with all of this except "SH has better skilled players than MU. They have a more complete group of pieces than MU."
Even if I accept that Powell is "better skilled" than Markus -- and I'm not sure I do -- I would take Sam before any other SH player, and our supporting cast is at least as good at knowing their roles and performing them well.
In the gauntlet that is the college basketball season, Marquette had a better overall record, a better conference record, and more Q1 wins. We were the higher seed in the conference tournament, and we will be the higher seed in the NCAA tournament. Our strength of schedule was comparable to theirs. We split the regular-season series, each winning on the home court.
So unless you are giving Wojo credit for being a much better coach than Willard -- in other words, Wojo got more out of "lesser skilled" players -- or unless you are saying SH scoring a 2-point victory in Friday's shyte-show "proves" their talent is better, I'm not sure how you're judging it.
Quote from: Cheeks on March 17, 2019, 10:53:57 AM
So much bullshyte here it is incredible. I never rooted against my alma mater ever. Absolute stone cold bullshyte.
Why did I bother spending all the money to go to NCAA tournament games in Arizona, San Jose, etc? Why did I bother flying to Milwaukee, New York, etc to cheer the team on? Complete bullshyte And you know it.
You can love your country and hate the leaders of it, just as you can love your school and basketball program and find the coach to be an absolute scum bag. Not that hard.
I went after players personally....I did say we collectively choked in a few games, and apologized for it. Let me know when the folks here apologize for their comments as I did.
Failed to materialize....oh I don't think so. He gone.
"Other shoes" Chico at his bullshyting best. "I have a Marquette waste basket in my office", "I spent some of my money to go to a game (did I mention some "famous" people I saw at the game?)". Lots of promises, lots of claims of "inside information", lots of bull shyte.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 17, 2019, 06:58:28 PM
"Other shoes" Chico at his bullshyting best. "I have a Marquette waste basket in my office", "I spent some of my money to go to a game (did I mention some "famous" people I saw at the game?)". Lots of promises, lots of claims of "inside information", lots of bull shyte.
You said I didn't cheer for MU, in fact actively cheered against them. A TOTAL, outright, 100% lie. PERIOD. END. OF. STORY.
Buzz is gone, and rightly so. The place is refreshed with him gone and his antics.
MU82
It really comes down to hive you evaluate our talent vs other teams. I still think we are three trick pony and some pieces that have their moments. Multiple times this season I noted how hard MU works for a basket and that troubles me. I watch other teams we played and they appear more in control.
In addition, we had some very nice wins and I cannot argue that, but all were at home with Howard scoring a ton of points. Again, I do not see that as a receipe for long term success.
Quote from: Cheeks on March 17, 2019, 07:00:31 PM
You said I didn't cheer for MU, in fact actively cheered against them. A TOTAL, outright, 100% lie. PERIOD. END. OF. STORY.
Buzz is gone, and rightly so. The place is refreshed with him gone and his antics.
You can claim that all you want, but there is a lot of evidence that for 6 years you minimized every accomplishment and (sometimes viciously) reveled in disappointments. That's not what a fan does and that's not a lie. Period. End of story.
At a bare minimum you were an awful MU fan from the day Buzz was hired. You telling people that they are bad fans is unseemly and anyone with an ounce of self awareness would recognize that.
And please stop yelling - it's a sign of a weak argument.
What this thread has devolved to:
(https://media.tenor.co/images/57f6c31dca1cce8250c6317208fa1a67/raw)
How about you two either take it private and stop hijacking threads with this silliness. Fer chrissake this is tournament week - put this aside and focus on MARQUETTE BASKETBALL!!!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 17, 2019, 07:29:42 PM
You can claim that all you want, but there is a lot of evidence that for 6 years you minimized every accomplishment and (sometimes viciously) reveled in disappointments. That's not what a fan does and that's not a lie. Period. End of story.
At a bare minimum you were an awful MU fan from the day Buzz was hired. You telling people that they are bad fans is unseemly and anyone with an ounce of self awareness would recognize that.
And please stop yelling - it's a sign of a weak argument.
No one is going to call me out and say I haven't been a MU fan or cheering for them since I was a student. It's repugnant and stupid. No one, least of all...you.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=25869.msg289082#msg289082 Great win, job by Buzz. Go Warriors
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=12651.msg112561#msg112561 Wes Matthews praise
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=40426.msg528369#msg528369 4 seed prediction, "awesome"
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=12076.msg107650#msg107650 Big win for Buzz, gave him benefit of doubt for Jimmy Mac run in
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=43659.msg612132#msg612132 Thought Buzz did a wonderful job....fun Lenny Chico exchange
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=17364.msg171286#msg171286 Buzz should be COY
And on and on and on....tons of them.
Were there plenty that bashed him and took him to task, too? Yup. Again, unlike some here that 100% only bash, but don't ever say I didn't want MU to win or wasn't cheering for the school. Ridiculous.