https://setonhall.forums.rivals.com/threads/ap-pool-reporter-with-the-ref-crew-chief.39400/
So clapping at an opponent is a more serious foul than deliberately elbowing an opponent. Makes perfect sense.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on March 16, 2019, 12:47:39 AM
https://setonhall.forums.rivals.com/threads/ap-pool-reporter-with-the-ref-crew-chief.39400/
So clapping at an opponent is a more serious foul than deliberately elbowing an opponent. Makes perfect sense.
The Clap is bad, but the ejections are mainly involuntary
Quote from: TallTitan34 on March 16, 2019, 12:47:39 AM
https://setonhall.forums.rivals.com/threads/ap-pool-reporter-with-the-ref-crew-chief.39400/
So clapping at an opponent is a more serious foul than deliberately elbowing an opponent. Makes perfect sense.
bad, bad rule. Hopefully it gets addressed. Very very bad rule. Flagrant 1 should count as a first T (or 2nd).
Plus it was close enough to flagrant 2 refs should have found a way to toss him after he STARTED the second altercation.
To hell with that assshole and his explanation
Read over the rules for flagrants and technicals. Have to say the refs followed the letter of the law perfectly. Only squabble I could see is whether or not Powell's elbow was severe enough to warrant a flagrant 2. or not. I could see an argument for both.
I said it elsewhere but I'll say it again, while they followed the letter of the law, the spirit of the law got missed here. Sacar gets ejected for clapping and shoving a guy who shoved him first (that was the other thing, why no foul for Nelson? He shoved Anim first). Powell gets to stay after intentionally elbowing a guy and angrily getting in someone's face and instigating a fight. That doesn't seem right to me. I agree with others who say they should look at that rule. I think any combo of two flagrants, two techincals or a flagrant and a technical should be an ejection.
QuoteFlagrant 1 personal foul. A flagrant 1 personal foul is a personal foul that
is deemed excessive in nature and/or unnecessary, but is not based solely on
the severity of the act. Examples include, but are not limited to:
1. Causing excessive contact with an opponent;
2. Contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball or player,
specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting;
3. Pushing or holding a player from behind to prevent a score;
4. Fouling a player clearly away from the ball who is not directly involved
with the play, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from
starting;
5. Contact with a player making a throw-in, and
6. Illegal contact caused by swinging of an elbow that is deemed excessive
or unnecessary but does not rise to the level of a flagrant 2 personal
foul (See Rule 4-18.7).
7. Illegal contact caused by a player hooking an opponent over or under
the arm in an attempt to deceive the official into believing the contact
was caused by the opponent. Depending on the nature of the contact,
or the result of the contact, this foul could be considered a flagrant 2
foul.
d. Flagrant 2 personal foul. A flagrant 2 personal foul is a personal foul
that involves contact with an opponent that is not only excessive, but also
severe or extreme while the ball is live. In determining whether a foul has
risen to the level of a flagrant 2, officials should consider the following:
1. The severity of the contact;
2. Whether a player is making a legitimate effort to block a shot. Note
that a player may still be assessed a flagrant 2 foul on an attempted
blocked shot when there are other factors such as hard contact to the
head or the defender winding up or emphatically following through
with the contact);
3. The potential for injury resulting from the contact (e.g., a blow to
the head or a foul committed while the player was in a vulnerable
position), and
4 Any contact by the offending player to the groin area of an opponent
which is not clearly accidental.
RULE 4 / Definitions 47
5. Any foul similar to the foul described in Rule 4-15.2.c.7 in which
the contact, or the result of the contact, is not only excessive but also
severe or extreme.
Outcome aside, if tonight wasn't a great reason why James Breeding shouldn't ref Big East games, I'm not sure what will. The outcome sucked for Mubb, but the Big East is killing themselves with the product they are putting out thanks to these refs. Tonight was an absolute debacle.
There's this too:
QuoteSection 14. Ejection
Art. 1. Ejection is the act of immediate dismissal of an individual from
participation in a game because of a specific infraction of the rules.
a. In addition to being disqualified, an individual who is ejected shall leave
the playing court and floor area and report to his team's locker room until
the game is over.
Art. 2. The following shall result in automatic ejection:
a. Committing a flagrant 2 personal or flagrant 2 technical foul;
b. Incurring the maximum number or combination of technical fouls;
c. Participating in a fight;
d. Leaving the bench area during a fight situation as bench personnel but
not participating in the fight; or
e. Participating after having been disqualified for a reason other than
ejection.
The refs decided this wasn't a fight. I'm curious what would be defined as a fight. Given the suckershoves from Mamu and Nelson, I think it could have been called a fight. That would have meant Powell, Nelson, and Mamu all ejected.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 16, 2019, 01:06:28 AM
Read over the rules for flagrants and technicals. Have to say the refs followed the letter of the law perfectly. Only squabble I could see is whether or not Powell's elbow was severe enough to warrant a flagrant 2. or not. I could see an argument for both.
I said it elsewhere but I'll say it again, while they followed the letter of the law, the spirit of the law got missed here. Sacar gets ejected for clapping and shoving a guy who shoved him first (that was the other thing, why no foul for Nelson? He shoved Anim first). Powell gets to stay after intentionally elbowing a guy and angrily getting in someone's face and instigating a fight. That doesn't seem right to me. I agree with others who say they should look at that rule. I think any combo of two flagrants, two techincals or a flagrant and a technical should be an ejection.
The part you highlighted is pretty key. However it was excessive. Intent is not part of the rule, but certainly is a factor that elevates a normal elbow to an excessive elbow. Biggest miss by officials in a night where they peed down their leg constantly
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 16, 2019, 01:06:28 AM
Read over the rules for flagrants and technicals. Have to say the refs followed the letter of the law perfectly. Only squabble I could see is whether or not Powell's elbow was severe enough to warrant a flagrant 2. or not. I could see an argument for both.
I said it elsewhere but I'll say it again, while they followed the letter of the law, the spirit of the law got missed here. Sacar gets ejected for clapping and shoving a guy who shoved him first (that was the other thing, why no foul for Nelson? He shoved Anim first). Powell gets to stay after intentionally elbowing a guy and angrily getting in someone's face and instigating a fight. That doesn't seem right to me. I agree with others who say they should look at that rule. I think any combo of two flagrants, two techincals or a flagrant and a technical should be an ejection.
agree 100%. Refs weren't wrong technically, but they had discretion to do the right thing and they did not.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 16, 2019, 01:06:28 AM
Read over the rules for flagrants and technicals. Have to say the refs followed the letter of the law perfectly. Only squabble I could see is whether or not Powell's elbow was severe enough to warrant a flagrant 2. or not. I could see an argument for both.
I said it elsewhere but I'll say it again, while they followed the letter of the law, the spirit of the law got missed here. Sacar gets ejected for clapping and shoving a guy who shoved him first (that was the other thing, why no foul for Nelson? He shoved Anim first). Powell gets to stay after intentionally elbowing a guy and angrily getting in someone's face and instigating a fight. That doesn't seem right to me. I agree with others who say they should look at that rule. I think any combo of two flagrants, two techincals or a flagrant and a technical should be an ejection.
I am not there on the Theo F2. I thought it was incidental but worthy of a F1 under these rules. Powell should have clearly been gone with a F2 as it was intentional. And then there is the rest of the shyt show beyond this scrum.
They didn't have the balls to ejected Seton Hall's best player.
I assume the explanation was
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ScrawnyDeepBee-small.gif)
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 16, 2019, 01:12:27 AM
I am not there on the Theo F2. I thought it was incidental but worthy of a F1 under these rules. Powell should have clearly been gone with a F2 as it was intentional. And then there is the rest of the shyt show beyond this scrum.
I know I just said I agree, but you're right about Theo. There was no reason to eject him from the game. I meant I agree that the Powell situation was technically right but still was done wrong.
Looking back, I wish Theo would have at least gotten his moneys worth before being ejected. Let him have a go at Powell and Mamu again.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on March 16, 2019, 01:17:18 AM
Looking back, I wish Theo would have at least gotten his moneys worth before being ejected. Let him have a go at Powell and Mamu again.
At minimum a Sub-Zero finisher uppercut
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 16, 2019, 01:12:27 AM
I am not there on the Theo F2. I thought it was incidental but worthy of a F1 under these rules. Powell should have clearly been gone with a F2 as it was intentional. And then there is the rest of the shyt show beyond this scrum.
I was struggling with that as well. On one hand I see point #3 of the flagrant 2 rule and see the example of a "player in a vulnerable position" on the other hand, I really think that was incidental contact and something that happens to Markus three times a game.
Theo was ejected for something that happens to Markus a minimum of 2 times a game, oftentimes not even getting a whistle at all let alone an ejection.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on March 16, 2019, 01:17:18 AM
Looking back, I wish Theo would have at least gotten his moneys worth before being ejected. Let him have a go at Powell and Mamu again.
Ironically, it would have likely worked out better for Marquette. If Theo gets a good hard shove in on Powell, I guarantee you Powell would have returned in kind, along with others from Seton Hall. The refs would have been forced to call it a fight and then Powell would have been ejected for sure, others from Seton Hall as well.
I also found it kind of strange that the refs had to tell SH that Powell wasn't ejected. SH coaching staff should know the rules, shouldn't have to tell them their player can come back...
the FS 1 guys post game -steve lavin-and 2 others were highly highly critical of the refs-said they took that game away from fans and players
the chirping started hard and fast and refs were very aware of-did nothing
let the players play to the point of chirping + physical contact=what was a foul and what was not?
87 fouls called, 8 technicals 57 ft's, 3 (should have been 4) ejections
2 1/2 hour game took closer to 3 1/2
watching the escalating play in super slo-mo made it look worse than it was-it was a regular basketball play. if the refs have control of that game from the beginning, nothing happens there, the elbow shot to sacar's chest was a one punch fight-he should have been gowne
powell assuming and taking himself out of game-what does that tell you? he felt his actions were going to warrant ejection...hmmmmm
If any ref from this game comes back to a Big East game, that will tell us all if the Big East is serious about being the best conference in college basketball. The ACC wouldn't allow this low level of refereeing.
Saw a view of the Theo Powell play from a camera on the opposite end of the court. Powell was unquestionably already awkwardly falling to the ground before Theo arrived to no more than brush his forearm on Powell. I thought 5 hours of sleep would help me calm down. But seeing that view 1st thing in the morning actually shows the call was even worse than I thought last night and shot a new dose of adrenaline through my body.
Quote from: MUEng92 on March 16, 2019, 07:04:28 AM
Saw a view of the Theo Powell play from a camera on the opposite end of the court. Powell was unquestionably already awkwardly falling to the ground before Theo arrived to no more than brush his forearm on Powell. I thought 5 hours of sleep would help me calm down. But seeing that view 1st thing in the morning actually shows the call was even worse than I thought last night and shot a new dose of adrenaline through my body.
I woke up maybe more fired up then I went to bed. We were so cheated.
Hope this link works. It compares what Powell did to Sacar and why Theo didn't do to Powell. Credit Nathan Marzion on Twitter if the link works. Blame me if it doesn't
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1106790110727684096/pu/pl/ud0H8nnW4ZlGJbmi.m3u8?tag=8 (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1106790110727684096/pu/pl/ud0H8nnW4ZlGJbmi.m3u8?tag=8)
The biggest problem I have is the inequity of the letter of the law application of the rules against Theo and Powell. If what Powell did is judged to be a F1, which even in the slowest of mos was as damaging as what Theo did to Powell then Theo has to get an F1 at worst.
Further for Seton Hall to be the aggressor/escalators in every one of the confrontations, but MU to suffer the worst officiating outcome is just maddening.
Honestly, it may come off as whining but I want MU to public rebuke the Big East and its officials in some capacity, this $hit has got to stop.
Quote from: MUEng92 on March 16, 2019, 07:14:27 AM
Hope this link works. It compares what Powell did to Sacar and why Theo didn't do to Powell. Credit Nathan Marzion on Twitter if the link works. Blame me if it doesn't
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1106790110727684096/pu/pl/ud0H8nnW4ZlGJbmi.m3u8?tag=8 (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1106790110727684096/pu/pl/ud0H8nnW4ZlGJbmi.m3u8?tag=8)
Thanks for this. Shows pretty clearly that Theo barely even touched him. Hardly worthy of anything, much less an ejection.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on March 16, 2019, 01:17:18 AM
Looking back, I wish Theo would have at least gotten his moneys worth before being ejected. Let him have a go at Powell and Mamu again.
So he can miss the NCAA as well?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 16, 2019, 01:19:34 AM
I was struggling with that as well. On one hand I see point #3 of the flagrant 2 rule and see the example of a "player in a vulnerable position" on the other hand, I really think that was incidental contact and something that happens to Markus three times a game.
This exactly. Markus gets shoved to the floor multiple times every single game. So does every other slashing player. The refs could, by the letter of the law, throw out a player every single game for hitting someone "in a vulnerable position." The only reason it was noticed was because Powell jumped up and acted like a baby and instigated a fight.
I am still furious the next morning. But reading Seth's twitter feed is bringing me a slice of joy. Hilarious that he is absolutely (deservingly) getting filleted.
I honestly didn't know that was a rule because I don't recall it ever being called. It makes how refs call Markus' drives to the basket his whole career even more ridiculous
Quote from: JakeBarnes on March 16, 2019, 12:50:57 AM
The Clap is bad, but the ejections are mainly involuntary
LOLOLOLOLOL. Youyouyou chewyouyou you gotta gift chewyouyou
Quote from: MUEng92 on March 16, 2019, 07:04:28 AM
Saw a view of the Theo Powell play from a camera on the opposite end of the court. Powell was unquestionably already awkwardly falling to the ground before Theo arrived to no more than brush his forearm on Powell. I thought 5 hours of sleep would help me calm down. But seeing that view 1st thing in the morning actually shows the call was even worse than I thought last night and shot a new dose of adrenaline through my body.
I agree. When I saw that angle last night it looked like a ho hum end of routine see it all the time play, but home team super star reacted and refs put the home team knee pads on. Theo has reigned it in pretty good, but they must talk about certain players to watch before,the game and he just can't seem to shake his old reputation. Maybe it's the mus-kles and they just assume he must be a goon or something. Regardless, the refs set the tone early for allowing a deliberate elbow punch to sacar now it's game on and they let their inner tim donaghykick in
We had many opportunities to play thru the bullchit, but no could take the reigns
Quote from: rocket surgeon on March 16, 2019, 08:20:32 AM
I agree. When I saw that angle last night it looked like a ho hum end of routine see it all the time play, but home team super star reacted and refs put the home team knee pads on. Theo has reigned it in pretty good, but they must talk about certain players to watch before,the game and he just can't seem to shake his old reputation. Maybe it's the mus-kles and they just assume he must be a goon or something. Regardless, the refs set the tone early for allowing a deliberate elbow punch to sacar now it's game on and they let their inner tim donaghykick in
We had many opportunities to play thru the bullchit, but no could take the reigns
MU really needs to have this addressed before next season. I can "technically" see the Theo foul as a flagrant 2, but it really looks lacking in intent, impact and intensity and in a normal world would not be called. Contrast this with the planned, wind-up elbow Powell throws and there is little comparison. This is the kind of disparity that is hard to put aside, and MU and Wojo should make a big deal about this crap at every single BE meeting and before every BE officiated game.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on March 16, 2019, 12:47:39 AM
https://setonhall.forums.rivals.com/threads/ap-pool-reporter-with-the-ref-crew-chief.39400/
So clapping at an opponent is a more serious foul than deliberately elbowing an opponent. Makes perfect sense.
Lol that forum has some crazy goggles on it. Calling theo a punk for a reactionary play. But completely disregarding their own player throwing an elbow and saying Sacar baited him into it. Damn they got some dumb people
We may want to contemplate the plank in our own eye before commenting on the splinter in theirs.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on March 16, 2019, 07:51:15 AM
Thanks for this. Shows pretty clearly that Theo barely even touched him. Hardly worthy of anything, much less an ejection.
Wow. Great video evidence. Theo barely wrinkled Powell's uniform.
Quote from: tower912 on March 16, 2019, 08:38:38 AM
We may want to contemplate the plank in our own eye before commenting on the splinter in theirs.
I think most of scoop handled it all very well. Manu and sacar are going to be ejected. Powell should be as well. When theo gets ejected that starts up a pretty reasonable tirade.
Quote from: tower912 on March 16, 2019, 08:38:38 AM
We may want to contemplate the plank in our own eye before commenting on the splinter in theirs.
Again Tower, not the hill you want to die on today.
Quote from: #UnleashCain on March 16, 2019, 08:41:32 AM
I think most of scoop handled it all very well. Manu and sacar are going to be ejected. Powell should be as well. When theo gets ejected that starts up a pretty reasonable tirade.
I think we all agree that the fracas was handled poorly and officiating affected outcome. But we certainly have our share of irrational posters. It amuses me that we are criticizing an opposing fanbase for their passion and perception.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on March 16, 2019, 08:43:09 AM
Again Tower, not the hill you want to die on today.
I'll chance it. It isn't like I can suddenly whip out a long suppressed insanely angry side. I thought the officiating affected if not dictated outcome. I think MU got hosed. I also think that it looked like an old time Big East tournament game.
Quote from: tower912 on March 16, 2019, 08:47:51 AM
I'll chance it. It isn't like I can suddenly whip out a long suppressed insanely angry side. I thought the officiating affected if not dictated outcome. I think MU got hosed. I also think that it looked like an old time Big East tournament game.
Minus the 85 free throws of course.
Quote from: tower912 on March 16, 2019, 08:47:51 AM
I'll chance it. It isn't like I can suddenly whip out a long suppressed insanely angry side. I thought the officiating affected if not dictated outcome. I think MU got hosed. I also think that it looked like an old time Big East tournament game.
It's funny you say that...as the issues at play with the officials were rules enacted/points emphasized after/because of the old Big East. The delineation of flagrant fouls, points of emphasis on arm guarding and center play, what's a technical versus flagrant foul. You are right, the refs brought their old rule books.