Great season all around.
All-american candidate, BEast POY candidate and NPOY candidate. Multiple BEast all-conference candidates. BEast freshman of the year candidate. BEast and national COY candidate.
Best finish in conference in YEARS. Best record in years.
#10 ranking during the season
Big-time up trend to our program. Love the coach and players. Recruiting looks top notch. Bringing back nearly every significant player plus redshirts.
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 09, 2019, 04:30:12 PM
Great season all around.
All-american candidate, BEast POY candidate and NPOY candidate. Multiple BEast all-conference candidates. BEast freshman of the year candidate. BEast and national COY candidate.
Best finish in conference in YEARS. Best record in years.
#10 ranking during the season
Big-time up trend to our program. Love the coach and players. Recruiting looks top notch. Bringing back nearly every significant player plus redshirts.
Amen. Finally some proper context.
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 09, 2019, 04:30:12 PM
Great season all around.
All-american candidate, BEast POY candidate and NPOY candidate. Multiple BEast all-conference candidates. BEast freshman of the year candidate. BEast and national COY candidate.
Best finish in conference in YEARS. Best record in years.
#10 ranking during the season
Big-time up trend to our program. Love the coach and players. Recruiting looks top notch. Bringing back nearly every significant player plus redshirts.
This post is 2 weeks too late. There is not a single player on this team that's going to win an award after this collapse.
Great job finishing #2 in the conference this year though.
There maybe zero teams ranked in the top 25 this year from the big east.
Maybe we can hang up a #10 ranking like VCU does?
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 09, 2019, 04:30:12 PM
Great season all around.
All-american candidate, BEast POY candidate and NPOY candidate. Multiple BEast all-conference candidates. BEast freshman of the year candidate. BEast and national COY candidate.
Best finish in conference in YEARS. Best record in years.
#10 ranking during the season
Big-time up trend to our program. Love the coach and players. Recruiting looks top notch. Bringing back nearly every significant player plus redshirts.
100% agree.
Didn't end up the way we wanted, but the overall trend is still moving in an upward direction.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on March 09, 2019, 04:38:31 PM
100% agree.
In a normal year finishing second in the Big East is a great accomplishment. But when you considered this was a down year in the Big East and only SJU and us are in peak mode and all the other squads are in the building phase, not so great. And while McEwen will hopefully be the ball handler we are missing, the league will be a lot better next year.
Quote from: CTWarrior on March 09, 2019, 04:44:11 PM
In a normal year finishing second in the Big East is a great accomplishment. But when you considered this was a down year in the Big East and only SJU and us are in peak mode and all the other squads are in the building phase, not so great. And while McEwen will hopefully be the ball handler we are missing, the league will be a lot better next year.
Dont understand this context. Sure it wasnt a "normal" year but why does that only excuse everyone else's performance and diminish ours
Quote from: MUeagle1090 on March 09, 2019, 04:46:19 PM
Dont understand this context. Sure it wasnt a "normal" year but why does that only excuse everyone else's performance and diminish ours
Because WE'RE the team with upperclassman. WE'VE been in rebuilding mode the last 4 years. WE No longer get to use excuses. Everyone other team, sans STJ, does.
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 09, 2019, 04:30:12 PM
Great season all around.
All-american candidate, BEast POY candidate and NPOY candidate. Multiple BEast all-conference candidates. BEast freshman of the year candidate. BEast and national COY candidate.
Best finish in conference in YEARS. Best record in years.
#10 ranking during the season
Big-time up trend to our program. Love the coach and players. Recruiting looks top notch. Bringing back nearly every significant player plus redshirts.
Hey, someone tell this guy.
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on March 09, 2019, 04:53:51 PM
Because WE'RE the team with upperclassman. WE'VE been in rebuilding mode the last 4 years. WE No longer get to use excuses. Everyone other team, sans STJ, does.
Yup, that's pretty much what I meant.
Everyone has different definition of great season. I am happy to say that mine is vastly different than jesmu.
Backing our way into the NCAA is better than making a late surge for an NIT birth. It was a good (not great) season, but I'm pretty pissed at how the regular season ended. I was starting to drink a lot of the kool-aid. Oh well. Still in the tournament and will have a good chance to win the first game.
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on March 09, 2019, 04:53:51 PM
Because WE'RE the team with upperclassman. WE'VE been in rebuilding mode the last 4 years. WE No longer get to use excuses. Everyone other team, sans STJ, does.
We start 0 seniors.
IMo, this was a good season. Not great. Years like this should be our average season now that Wojo has all his guys.
Quote from: MUeagle1090 on March 09, 2019, 04:59:31 PM
We start 0 seniors.
Let's not start this narrative. We have plenty of experience.
Taking 2nd in the Big East is nothing to brag about this year, if we're being honest. Especially when, IMO, we probably have the best roster in the league from a collective talent/experience standpoint. Not too mention the fact that all we needed to do was win 1 out of the last 4 to get a share of the conference title.
Not sure what being ranked in the top 10 at one point in the middle of the season has to do with anything? Who gives a crap. It wouldn't matter even if they got to number 1 if you're not going to hang any banners or win any hardware.
The fact that they're playing their worst at the end of the season is a huge concern. However, let's see how the postseason plays out. They would not be the first team in college basketball history to go on a run in the tourney after limping to the finish in the regular season. If they fail to right the ship and don't win at all in the postseason, it will be a disappointing year in my eyes.
No, not "hell of a regular season" but "regular season of hell"
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 09, 2019, 04:30:12 PM
Great season all around.
All-american candidate, BEast POY candidate and NPOY candidate. Multiple BEast all-conference candidates. BEast freshman of the year candidate. BEast and national COY candidate.
Best finish in conference in YEARS. Best record in years.
#10 ranking during the season
Big-time up trend to our program. Love the coach and players. Recruiting looks top notch. Bringing back nearly every significant player plus redshirts.
Don't forget the best Marquette team (by a lot) to close out the regular season with 4 consecutive losses. Of course there aren't many who have accomplished that, but still...were #1 among them! Hooray!
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 09, 2019, 05:00:49 PM
Let's not start this narrative. We have plenty of experience.
Sure. That's true. So is what I said. None of our best 7 players are seniors. Is that true for other teams in the league?
Seasons are defined by NCAA success. You come in as a 2 and lose to a 15 and you're season looks like a failure. The narrative is yet to be told.
Worst part of the loses is that a lower seed is going to make winning tougher in the games that people will remember most.
Quote from: MUeagle1090 on March 09, 2019, 05:02:26 PM
Sure. That's true. So is what I said. None of our best 7 players are seniors. Is that true for other teams in the league?
None of our players have grey hair either. It's about as relevant. Btw 2 of our best seven have player college b-ball as long as a 'senior'. Plus joe c plays.
Just realised I was right on my prediction in my signature I've had for months now. That sucks to be right about
Quote from: MUeagle1090 on March 09, 2019, 05:02:26 PM
Sure. That's true. So is what I said. None of our best 7 players are seniors. Is that true for other teams in the league?
I tend to think the younger you are, the more you are likely to improve. I've got nothing to back that up but intuition, but that's what I think. We should be better next year if everyone comes back. But I think more than a few of the other teams will improve more than we will, that's all.
Coaches picked MU second in the pre-season, so the team meet expectations in that sense. But, let's not kid ourselves, this isnt a program swimming in conference titles. To piss one away is very disappointing.
Quote from: Goose on March 09, 2019, 04:57:07 PM
Everyone has different definition of great season. I am happy to say that mine is vastly different than jesmu.
Write on. If ya strive for nothin', yur gonna get it every tyme, hey?
Quote from: CTWarrior on March 09, 2019, 05:07:18 PM
I tend to think the younger you are, the more you are likely to improve. I've got nothing to back that up but intuition, but that's what I think. We should be better next year if everyone comes back. But I think more than a few of the other teams will improve more than we will, that's all.
Mostly agree with this. I tend to be am optimist. I think it is funny that we missed winning conference by one game and the team in front of us loses their 2 best players and everyone is convinced we will regress.
Doesn't make this losing streak any less painful.
Total and utter bullchit
Quote from: Goose on March 09, 2019, 04:57:07 PM
Everyone has different definition of great season. I am happy to say that mine is vastly different than jesmu.
Everyone knows your definition is a National Championship. You've made that abundantly clear either passively or aggressively with each post. You are consistent and I admire that.
Wojo has his strengths and weaknesses. He needs to address his weaknesses in the offseason.
-Attend some coaching clinics.
-hire someone on the staff who actually knows X's and O's. Let this person draw up plays.
We're in a weird spot. The what is good. Preseason, most Marquette fans would have gladly signed up for 23-8 (12-6), 2nd in the Big East, 5-6 seed on the way.
The problem is the how. Getting there on a 4 game losing streak to end the season is not going to leave anyone feeling good.
Question becomes, how well do we need to do in March to overcome the bad taste from the 4 losses?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 09, 2019, 05:23:14 PM
We're in a weird spot. The what is good. Preseason, most Marquette fans would have gladly signed up for 23-8 (12-6), 2nd in the Big East, 5-6 seed on the way.
The problem is the how. Getting there on a 4 game losing streak to end the season is not going to leave anyone feeling good.
Question becomes, how well do we need to do in March to overcome the bad taste from the 4 losses?
For me, the goal and expectation has always been a sweet 16. Id be very happy with that
Quote from: MUpilot on March 09, 2019, 05:24:18 PM
For me, the goal and expectation has always been a sweet 16. Id be very happy with that
Ya. Here's the thing. Sweet 16 is fools gold. Let's say Marquette this season makes the sweet 16, but no further. Does that mean Loyola is a better program cause they went further last year? Does that mean MU is better than Virginia was last year? No.
The NCAA tournament is no reflection on a coach, the program or its players.
Gather yourselves, take your emotions out of it and reflect on what is success relative to where your program is in the present and where it was in the recent past.
MU is 100% on the rise. Anyone who says otherwise is objectively wrong.
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 09, 2019, 05:28:54 PM
Ya. Here's the thing. Sweet 16 is fools gold. Let's say Marquette this season makes the sweet 16, but no further. Does that mean Loyola is a better program cause they went further last year? Does that mean MU is better than Virginia was last year? No.
The NCAA tournament is no reflection on a coach, the program or its players.
Gather yourselves, take your emotions out of it and reflect on what is success relative to where your program is in the present and where it was in the recent past.
MU is 100% on the rise. Anyone who says otherwise is objectively wrong.
I agree with you, but the reality is every school is judged on NCAA tournament wins. Is it fair? Maybe, maybe not. I think it is.
To answer my own question, I think I need two more wins to consider expectations "met". Wouldn't be mad, wouldn't be overjoyed. I think I need a BET championship or a Sweet 16 to consider expectations exceeded.
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 09, 2019, 05:28:54 PM
Ya. Here's the thing. Sweet 16 is fools gold. Let's say Marquette this season makes the sweet 16, but no further. Does that mean Loyola is a better program cause they went further last year? Does that mean MU is better than Virginia was last year? No.
The NCAA tournament is no reflection on a coach, the program or its players.
Gather yourselves, take your emotions out of it and reflect on what is success relative to where your program is in the present and where it was in the recent past.
MU is 100% on the rise. Anyone who says otherwise is objectively wrong.
Is that what some have resorted to here, "celebrating" a good season because they had been in the dumpster the previous 4?? Low expectations much?? This season has been an unmitigated disaster with the way it ended...there is simply no way around it...all the "good" That may have happened earlier, is totally erased with the stink that was the last 4 games.They may not win another game...I'm glad the administration(and many posters) LOVE Wojo...the bar has been set low apparently...
Expectations change during a season. 23-8 going in? Yeah, about right. 23-8 when you're 23-4 and have 2 home games left against meh to sub meh teams? Not so much. 12-6 conference record? Going in and not knowing the weakness of the Big East? Sure. From 12-2? Hell no. 2nd place going in? Why not? 2nd place when one stinkin' win in your last 4 means a conference title? Not a chance in the world. Meeting preseason expectations rings hollow when every star aligns to make a season special and you spit out the bit down the stretch. Barring a turnaround (BE tourney title and a S16 run) this season will be a disappointment.
Right when you go from 11-1 to 12-6 it is a disaster! Beat Nova you win BE, beat CU we win BE Beat SH we win BE Today we wake up needing SH to beat Nova, bingo it happens. All we need to do it beat GT, NOPE! Four chances to win BE Choked em all way!
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 09, 2019, 05:28:54 PM
Ya. Here's the thing. Sweet 16 is fools gold. Let's say Marquette this season makes the sweet 16, but no further. Does that mean Loyola is a better program cause they went further last year? Does that mean MU is better than Virginia was last year? No.
The NCAA tournament is no reflection on a coach, the program or its players.
Gather yourselves, take your emotions out of it and reflect on what is success relative to where your program is in the present and where it was in the recent past.
MU is 100% on the rise. Anyone who says otherwise is objectively wrong.
No phun beein' in da nile, hey?
Troll job
Quote from: MUpilot on March 09, 2019, 05:31:10 PM
I agree with you, but the reality is every school is judged on NCAA tournament wins. Is it fair? Maybe, maybe not. I think it is.
Short term, teams are judged on NCAA Tournament wins. That's why people still are still talking about Loyola.
Long term, they're judged partially on getting in consistently, partly on getting ranked consistently, and partly on NCAA Tournament wins. That's why people probably won't be talking about Loyola much in a year or two. (
See,
e.g., George Mason and Florida Atlantic).
We still have a ways to go on both fronts, but I still think Wojo deserves time.
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 09, 2019, 05:28:54 PM
Ya. Here's the thing. Sweet 16 is fools gold. Let's say Marquette this season makes the sweet 16, but no further. Does that mean Loyola is a better program cause they went further last year? Does that mean MU is better than Virginia was last year? No.
The NCAA tournament is no reflection on a coach, the program or its players.
Gather yourselves, take your emotions out of it and reflect on what is success relative to where your program is in the present and where it was in the recent past.
MU is 100% on the rise. Anyone who says otherwise is objectively wrong.
Yeah, haven't you guys heard? UMBC beat Virginia last year, so postseason no matta. It means so little, I'm surprised the NCAA even bothers having it.
Hell, even losses don't matter that much. In fact, (insert ranked team here) lost to (insert unranked team here) at home earlier today. It happens to everybody.
And yes, I agree that we really do need to look at the recent past when evaluating the Wojo era. When he got here, we were a year removed from 9 straight NCAA appearances, including 3 straight Sweet 16s, the program was facing no sanctions, facilities and recruiting budget were top notch, and the team was (and still is) playing its home games in an NBA arena. Things were such a dumpster fire, you gotta feel kinda bad for the guy.
If we'd lost these conference games early in BE play then consistently improved and finished with the record we did and a second place finish it would be a hell of a regular season.
#whenyoulosematters
#howyoulosematters
#whyyoulosematters
As it is this was a decent regular season. Solid even. Hell of a regular season? No
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 09, 2019, 04:30:12 PM
Great season all around.
All-american candidate, BEast POY candidate and NPOY candidate. Multiple BEast all-conference candidates. BEast freshman of the year candidate. BEast and national COY candidate.
Best finish in conference in YEARS. Best record in years.
#10 ranking during the season
Big-time up trend to our program. Love the coach and players. Recruiting looks top notch. Bringing back nearly every significant player plus redshirts.
It's not how you start it's how you finish....
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 09, 2019, 05:28:54 PM
Gather yourselves, take your emotions out of it and reflect on what is success relative to where your program is in the present and where it was in the recent past.
Following your instructions, gathered myself and reflected on where we were in the recent past: 23-4, #9 in the country, heading toward a Big East Championship and a #2 or #3 seed in the Big Dance. Didn't make me feel better.
Quote from: Goose on March 09, 2019, 04:57:07 PM
Everyone has different definition of great season. I am happy to say that mine is vastly different than jesmu.
You are miserable.
After reading the responses to this, I've come to the conclusion that Marquette fans don't deserve a good team. Glad you guys are so miserable. I will choose to be happy.
Quote from: muhoops1 on March 09, 2019, 06:04:10 PM
It's not how you start it's how you finish....
Well the good thing is MU still has the conference tournament and the NCAA's to turn things around.
Felt like we exceeded expectations and fell back to earth a bit, unfortunately. We made some additions in Morrow and Joey but for a team without senior leadership and a lot of experience, I'm happy with the overall results. Had some amazing, fun games to watch throughout the year and ended with a skid.
Hope the boys can step it up and make some noise. To win a couple games in the tournament following an NIT appearance will make me very pleased.
Fluff
I will do my best to be the kind of fan that "deserves" a good team.
This is a good team...to the casual observer.
Doc
I have been saying that all year. I get folks being too young to have MU glory days as a reference, but don't they watch other games? When I watch the elite programs play I realize how much work is left to be done.
It part of today's generation. Everything is good and we all need to gravitate to the mean.
Quote from: Goose on March 09, 2019, 06:29:33 PM
Doc
I have been saying that all year. I get folks being too young to have MU glory days as a reference, but don't they watch other games? When I watch the elite programs play I realize how much work is left to be done.
We are not a very athletic team and our lack of quickness and poor hands are taking its toll. We need to recruit more athletes.
Quote from: Goose on March 09, 2019, 06:29:33 PM
Doc
I have been saying that all year. I get folks being too young to have MU glory days as a reference, but don't they watch other games? When I watch the elite programs play I realize how much work is left to be done.
No need to drop anything about the glory days in there. If anyone watches the top echelon teams, MU can't hang with their athleticism and physicality. And unlike Bo's UW teams who routinely faced an athleticism gap, this group will not play disciplined enough to succeed.
Need to start recruiting some grown men into the program. These skinny dudes ain't gonna get it done.
Quote from: Goose on March 09, 2019, 06:22:55 PM
Fluff
I will do my best to be the kind of fan that "deserves" a good team.
Goose, there aren't many of us that are like we are...don't change a damn thing...let these small minded fans celebrate good regular seasons, never care if MU gets back to elite again, be satisfied with regular tourney appearances, and a few wins in the tourney along the way..that's their prerogative. They conveniently forget how good this program was 7 years ago...they were on the cusp of greatness...so now because it's been a dumpster fire, fans look at a season like this as a "success". That honestly makes me sad...really sad.
Quote from: MUfan12 on March 09, 2019, 06:35:15 PM
No need to drop anything about the glory days in there. If anyone watches the top echelon teams, MU can't hang with their athleticism and physicality. And unlike Bo's UW teams who routinely faced an athleticism gap, this group will not play disciplined enough to succeed.
Need to start recruiting some grown men into the program. These skinny dudes ain't gonna get it done.
Dat wood bee Buzz, hey?
MUfan12
You need talent or a great coach. I suggest Wojo focus on getting big time talent because him becoming a great coach looks like a pipe dream.
Quote from: Goose on March 09, 2019, 06:22:55 PM
Fluff
I will do my best to be the kind of fan that "deserves" a good team.
😂😂
Quote from: Goose on March 09, 2019, 06:29:33 PM
Doc
I have been saying that all year. I get folks being too young to have MU glory days as a reference, but don't they watch other games? When I watch the elite programs play I realize how much work is left to be done.
But what you are saying is obvious. Its a no brainer. You are stating the sky is blue. We obviously need more talent. We obviously would prefer the best coach in the country. No one wants to wait for that to happen. But we all have too because that is the predicament we find ourselves in. Marquette will have to build a program. It will not fall in our lap. We will not get lucky. Wojo is young and inexperienced but building a bright future at MU. His recruiting which has been good will get better. His coaching which got better this year will continue to improve.
You are not a basketball sage stating we are not good enough. That is Obvious. To pretend you are the only one who watches great basketball is laughable.
The growth of the program is fun to watch and the trend is in the right direction.
Shooter
Keep dreaming. Wojo a young coach? There are guys coaching in NFL nearly a decade younger than Wojo. Keep making excuses.
Serious question.
Who has wojo recruited? Markus came from Stan. Sam came because Bo f***ed up, Joey is his brother. Wojo did get Henry. Am I missing some others?
I don't think he's a bad recruiter, but I don't think it has been determined he's a good recruiter. I think 2020 will show us if he is, or isn't.
Quote from: muguru on March 09, 2019, 06:35:55 PM
Goose, there aren't many of us that are like we are...don't change a damn thing...let these small minded fans celebrate good regular seasons, never care if MU gets back to elite again, be satisfied with regular tourney appearances, and a few wins in the tourney along the way..that's their prerogative. They conveniently forget how good this program was 7 years ago...they were on the cusp of greatness...so now because it's been a dumpster fire, fans look at a season like this as a "success". That honestly makes me sad...really sad.
Oh good you're alive
Quote from: Goose on March 09, 2019, 06:44:42 PM
Shooter
Keep dreaming. Wojo a young coach? There are guys coaching in NFL nearly a decade younger than Wojo. Keep making excuses.
Add more to the board than constantly saying we are not national championship caliber team. Again, obvious.
Quote from: MUfan12 on March 09, 2019, 06:35:15 PM
No need to drop anything about the glory days in there. If anyone watches the top echelon teams, MU can't hang with their athleticism and physicality. And unlike Bo's UW teams who routinely faced an athleticism gap, this group will not play disciplined enough to succeed.
100 perc agree
Need to start recruiting some grown men into the program. These skinny dudes ain't gonna get it done.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on March 09, 2019, 06:53:15 PM
Add more to the board than constantly saying we are not national championship caliber team. Again, obvious.
Actually, fair enough. If we do not get a huge hall recruiting wise in 2020 do we fire him? I gues that's the question because next year will be good enough I'm the administrations eyes.
Goose I do respect your opinion. Just frustrated with negativity.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on March 09, 2019, 06:42:44 PM
But what you are saying is obvious. Its a no brainer. You are stating the sky is blue. We obviously need more talent. We obviously would prefer the best coach in the country. No one wants to wait for that to happen. But we all have too because that is the predicament we find ourselves in. Marquette will have to build a program. It will not fall in our lap. We will not get lucky. Wojo is young and inexperienced but building a bright future at MU. His recruiting which has been good will get better. His coaching which got better this year will continue to improve.
You are not a basketball sage stating we are not good enough. That is Obvious. To pretend you are the only one who watches great basketball is laughable.
The growth of the program is fun to watch and the trend is in the right direction.
Tired of hearing we are trending in the right direction and excuses for Wojo. This season's ending meltdown collapse is all ALL , ALL, ALL ON WOJO. He has had 6 years and continues to crap all over the place. Sayanora.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 09, 2019, 05:23:14 PM
Preseason, most Marquette fans would have gladly signed up for 23-8 (12-6), 2nd in the Big East, 5-6 seed on the way.
We fail to win a game in the BE tourney next week -- very possible and even likely now -- and enter the NCAA on a five game losing streak, we could be in one of those very tough 8/9 matchups. NCAA selection committee does not reward fading teams.
Shooter
Facts are facts. What you feel is negativity is your call. I am not going to break down every player, say the next game is biggest of the season or forecast a 12 man rotation for "next season". I live in the real world and try to be a fair judge.
Quote from: willie warrior on March 09, 2019, 07:03:20 PM
Tired of hearing we are trending in the right direction and excuses for Wojo. This season's ending meltdown collapse is all ALL , ALL, ALL ON WOJO. He has had 6 years and continues to crap all over the place. Sayanora.
This is it exactly...it is all on him and he says as much himself...yet what has he done to fix this spiral they have been in?? NOTHING...not a damn thing...sadly, it's because he is too clueless to know what to do. FIX IT...or MU needs to find someone that can/will.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 09, 2019, 05:00:49 PM
Let's not start this narrative. We have plenty of experience.
#216 in experience nationally. We're young. <hides>
Quote from: Jay Bee on March 09, 2019, 07:18:20 PM
#216 in experience nationally. We're young. <hides>
😂
"I don't know, I think this slump should all be put on me."
"I mean, we've had to play Villanova and Xavier twice, and I don't know, we haven't shot more free throws then the other team at all this year."
"But I don't make excuses. So if the pitch forks want to come out, write about it"
Quote from: GrimmReaper33 on March 09, 2019, 05:00:56 PM
Taking 2nd in the Big East is nothing to brag about this year, if we're being honest. Especially when, IMO, we probably have the best roster in the league from a collective talent/experience standpoint. Not too mention the fact that all we needed to do was win 1 out of the last 4 to get a share of the conference title.
Not sure what being ranked in the top 10 at one point in the middle of the season has to do with anything? Who gives a crap. It wouldn't matter even if they got to number 1 if you're not going to hang any banners or win any hardware.
The fact that they're playing their worst at the end of the season is a huge concern. However, let's see how the postseason plays out. They would not be the first team in college basketball history to go on a run in the tourney after limping to the finish in the regular season. If they fail to right the ship and don't win at all in the postseason, it will be a disappointing year in my eyes.
preach!
Quote from: WarriorHal on March 09, 2019, 07:03:47 PM
We fail to win a game in the BE tourney next week -- very possible and even likely now -- and enter the NCAA on a five game losing streak, we could be in one of those very tough 8/9 matchups. NCAA selection committee does not reward fading teams.
Clueless. Absolutely, completely clueless.
Quote from: WarriorHal on March 09, 2019, 07:03:47 PM
NCAA selection committee does not reward fading teams.
That's not true. Guys like Palm always says they look at your whole body of work. OU and ASU would never made it last season if that was the case.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 09, 2019, 09:39:47 PM
Clueless. Absolutely, completely clueless.
What do you think our floor is? 6? Could it drop to 7?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 09, 2019, 06:31:02 PM
It part of today's generation. Everything is good and we all need to gravitate to the mean.
I'm a 56 year old man who owns runs his own business and have done so for 20 years. I understand the difference between short term setbacks versus long term problems.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 09, 2019, 05:47:23 PM
Expectations change during a season. 23-8 going in? Yeah, about right. 23-8 when you're 23-4 and have 2 home games left against meh to sub meh teams? Not so much. 12-6 conference record? Going in and not knowing the weakness of the Big East? Sure. From 12-2? Hell no. 2nd place going in? Why not? 2nd place when one stinkin' win in your last 4 means a conference title? Not a chance in the world. Meeting preseason expectations rings hollow when every star aligns to make a season special and you spit out the bit down the stretch. Barring a turnaround (BE tourney title and a S16 run) this season will be a disappointment.
For me, this sums it up perfectly. This is my favorite post of the night, as this is spot on where I'm at.
Why do I get the sense that the last bite of this Big East shiit sandwich is going to be a loss to DePaul?
Quote from: MUDish on March 09, 2019, 10:46:58 PM
For me, this sums it up perfectly. This is my favorite post of the night, as this is spot on where I'm at.
Exactly. It amazes me how many people here aren't even on board with the intuition of Bayesian Updating...
The extremely unexpected and dramatic dip to end the regular season does not change the fact that I've had more fun watching Marquette basketball this year since I was in school. Jae and DJO come close. This year was a ton of fun and it's not over yet! Keep the faith.
Don't give up on them yet.
And a followup.
There is no way to excuse a 4 game losing streak at this juncture in the season. I also think it's worthwhile to accept how lucky we have gotten in the close games throughout. Early season great bounces (Creighton!?) and world class end game free throw shooting put some games in the W column for us that honestly probably shouldn't have been. Curious what the perception would be if we swapped the W's and L's vs Creighton and Gtown this season?
Our reversion to the mean is not a reflection on our ceiling. This team has a week to prepare for a 2 seed in a prestigious conference, and then another week to get ready for war. The amount of doomsday posters on here baffles me. We have all seen what this team is capable of, and frankly I still don't think there is a coach in the country that would want to draw us in the tourney.
Quote from: MUeagle1090 on March 09, 2019, 10:27:11 PM
What do you think our floor is? 6? Could it drop to 7?
6. There was a huge dropoff from 4 to 5 and I think we just made that drop anyway. Another loss could drop us another line, but we're not falling to an 8/9 game, that's for sure.
Quote from: Carl on March 10, 2019, 01:24:05 AM
And a followup.
There is no way to excuse a 4 game losing streak at this juncture in the season. I also think it's worthwhile to accept how lucky we have gotten in the close games throughout. Early season great bounces (Creighton!?) and world class end game free throw shooting put some games in the W column for us that honestly probably shouldn't have been. Curious what the perception would be if we swapped the W's and L's vs Creighton and Gtown this season?
Our reversion to the mean is not a reflection on our ceiling. This team has a week to prepare for a 2 seed in a prestigious conference, and then another week to get ready for war. The amount of doomsday posters on here baffles me. We have all seen what this team is capable of, and frankly I still don't think there is a coach in the country that would want to draw us in the tourney.
Haha. Coaches are lining up to kick Wojos ass.
Quote from: Carl on March 10, 2019, 01:07:29 AM
The extremely unexpected and dramatic dip to end the regular season does not change the fact that I've had more fun watching Marquette basketball this year since I was in school. Jae and DJO come close. This year was a ton of fun and it's not over yet! Keep the faith.
Don't give up on them yet.
I'm going to assume this is just poor word choice. Obviously you're not saying you enjoy this team over that team
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 10, 2019, 04:54:37 AM
6. There was a huge dropoff from 4 to 5 and I think we just made that drop anyway. Another loss could drop us another line, but we're not falling to an 8/9 game, that's for sure.
Marquette always seems to be under-seeded in the tourney. A first-round loss in the BET, and I would expect an 8-9 seed.
Quote from: warriorfred on March 10, 2019, 09:28:36 AM
Marquette always seems to be under-seeded in the tourney. A first-round loss in the BET, and I would expect an 8-9 seed.
Any year in particular you're referring to? 17, 13, 12, 11, 10, and 09 all seemed right to me. Maybe an argument for a 5 in 09 but that's the only one I see
Quote from: MUpilot on March 09, 2019, 04:37:21 PM
Maybe we can hang up a #10 ranking like VCU does?
My Dear Fellow Aviator
VCU hung a banner celebrating a YEAR ENDING Top Ten Ranking.
Wojo could hang one reading "Temporary Top Ten Ranking"
Kinda like dry humping...
Quote from: RushmoreAcademy on March 09, 2019, 05:04:58 PM
Seasons are defined by NCAA success. You come in as a 2 and lose to a 15 and you're season looks like a failure. The narrative is yet to be told.
Worst part of the loses is that a lower seed is going to make winning tougher in the games that people will remember most.
No, the worst part of the losses is that we blew a chance to beBig East champs.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 10, 2019, 09:40:40 AM
Any year in particular you're referring to? 17, 13, 12, 11, 10, and 09 all seemed right to me. Maybe an argument for a 5 in 09 but that's the only one I see
Agreed. I would actually argue we were overseeded in 2010.
I think 07-08 we may have been slight underseeded but not by enough to complain.
I just do not think posters are recognizing how much some teams improved during the season. Villanova and MU tied with 6 teams for last place in the second half of the Big East season. MU lost the second game of every team they split the season match up with.
2nd half 1st half Final
Xavier 6-3 3-6 9-9
Seton Hall 5-4 4-5 9-9
Creighton 5-4 4-5 9-9
Georgetown 5-4 4-5 9-9
Villanova 4-5 9-0 13-5
MU 4-5 8-1 12-6
St. John's 4-5 4-5 8-10
Butler 4-5 3-6 7-11
Providence 4-5 3-6 7-11
DePaul 4-5 3-6 7-11
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 09, 2019, 05:47:23 PM
Expectations change during a season. 23-8 going in? Yeah, about right. 23-8 when you're 23-4 and have 2 home games left against meh to sub meh teams? Not so much. 12-6 conference record? Going in and not knowing the weakness of the Big East? Sure. From 12-2? Hell no. 2nd place going in? Why not? 2nd place when one stinkin' win in your last 4 means a conference title? Not a chance in the world. Meeting preseason expectations rings hollow when every star aligns to make a season special and you spit out the bit down the stretch. Barring a turnaround (BE tourney title and a S16 run) this season will be a disappointment.
This describes my feeling exactly.
I had this debate last night with a moderator of a different MU basketball board. I cannot consider a season "great" (as he does) when a golden opportunity to win a rare BE title gets kicked away in the last 4 games, including 2 home losses to sub bubble teams. His spin is that it was unrealistic to expect more with Howard and Sam Hauser saddled with nagging injuries.
I said after the Villanova loss (which, while disappointing, didn't bother me that much) that while the season had been fun to that point, I was going to be disappointed if MU didn't accomplish at least two of (1) a regular season title, which at that point looked like relatively low hanging fruit, (2) a BET title, or at a minimum MU's first trip to the final, and (3) a trip to the Sweet 16.
I refuse to apologize for raising my expectations as the season unfolded and being disappointed at how the last two weeks played out. That upward trajectory may or may not continue next season, but will likely stall the next year as MU loses 4 key seniors after next year. Missing opportunities when they present themselves is always disappointing to me because you never know if they'll come up again.
Quote from: wisblue on March 10, 2019, 12:48:35 PM
This describes my feeling exactly.
I had this debate last night with a moderator of a different MU basketball board. I cannot consider a season "great" (as he does) when a golden opportunity to win a rare BE title gets kicked away in the last 4 games, including 2 home losses to sub bubble teams. His spin is that it was unrealistic to expect more with Howard and Sam Hauser saddled with nagging injuries.
I said after the Villanova loss (which, while disappointing, didn't bother me that much) that while the season had been fun to that point, I was going to be disappointed if MU didn't accomplish at least two of (1) a regular season title, which at that point looked like relatively low hanging fruit, (2) a BET title, or at a minimum MU's first trip to the final, and (3) a trip to the Sweet 16.
I refuse to apologize for raising my expectations as the season unfolded and being disappointed at how the last two weeks played out. That upward trajectory may or may not continue next season, but will likely stall the next year as MU loses 4 key seniors after next year. Missing opportunities when they present themselves is always disappointing to me because you never know if they'll come up again.
Yes, let's please put this "I would have taken 23-8" at the start of the season argument to rest once and for all.
If you are 0-0 and have 10 games left and are 50-50 in all of them, the probability of you going 10-0 is 0.1%
If you are 9-0 and have 1 game left that you are 50-50 in, the probability of you going 10-0 is 50%
The probability of us going 23-8 at the start of the season when we were 0-0 was different than the probability of us going 23-8 once we were 23-4.
Did we beat the probabilities to get to 23-4? Yes. But once we did that it had no bearing on the probabilities of the future games. Wojo raised the bar and then fell flat on his a$$ while trying to limbo under it.
No one is saying that expectations didn't raise and that the last four games have altered the view of the season. The point is that when evaluating the success of the season you have to look at the whole picture. The good and the bad. You say it's terrible that we couldn't win the Big East with 4 opportunities. You're right. But the fact that we could lose the last four games of the season and still be 1 game out of first place is a testament to how great the first 27 games were.
Quote from: MUDish on March 09, 2019, 10:46:58 PM
For me, this sums it up perfectly. This is my favorite post of the night, as this is spot on where I'm at.
Thanks, Dish. Another thing to ponder - the odds against losing all of our last 4 games were almost 100-1 (.65 - Villanova x .3 - Creighton x .4 - Seton Hall x .15 - Georgetown = .0117 or less than 1.2%. If we had gone into the NCAA tournament as a 2 seed we would have had a significantly better chance of winning the whole thing than we had of losing all of our final four games. A 3 seed would have likely given us a slightly better chance. Food for thought when considering how monumental this collapse was.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 10, 2019, 09:49:11 PM
less than 1.2%. If we had gone into the NCAA tournament as a 2 seed we would have had a significantly better chance of winning the whole thing than we had of losing all of our final four games
Well, yes, and no? According to this, a 2 seed has about a 4.1% chance of winning it all. So like 342% better chance to win. That's significant! But still you're talking about 1.2/100 vs 4.1/100. You wouldn't bet your life savings on either, despite the 342% greater odds of winning.
https://www.boydsbets.com/bracket-tips-by-seed/
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 10, 2019, 10:45:34 PM
Well, yes, and no? According to this, a 2 seed has about a 4.1% chance of winning it all. So like 342% better chance to win. That's significant! But still you're talking about 1.2/100 vs 4.1/100. You wouldn't bet your life savings on either, despite the 342% greater odds of winning.
https://www.boydsbets.com/bracket-tips-by-seed/
No argument that both outcomes would have been long shots, Rocky - but the fact that 2 weeks ago we had 3.4 times better chance to win the whole enchilada than we did to lose all of our last 4 games gives perspective to just how awful our collapse was.
Quote from: jutaw22mu on March 09, 2019, 05:21:37 PM
Wojo has his strengths and weaknesses. He needs to address his weaknesses in the offseason.
-Attend some coaching clinics.
-hire someone on the staff who actually knows X's and O's. Let this person draw up plays.
So...basically you are saying he is utterly unprepared for a job which pays him close to 2 Clams a year
I think if people proposed a 23-8 season, second place in the BE and a BE record of 12-6, Most people would have signed up. Now the fact that we lost 4 in a row absolutely sucks, especially losing the BE title like we did.
So given how well our recruiting is going, the upward trajectory makes me content that we have good things ahead. This team has flaws especially at PG, Markus is a 2. I am happy with the season and how it went, especially after the IU game.
With greg, koby and possibly symir here next year, i feel good about our situation at the 1 going forward.
Slide Markus to the 2 and have him play 10-15 minutes a game at the 1.
Provided hes doing ok there and we will be much better next year. This years experiences, good n bad, will pay huge dividends next year.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 10, 2019, 09:49:11 PM
Thanks, Dish. Another thing to ponder - the odds against losing all of our last 4 games were almost 100-1 (.65 - Villanova x .3 - Creighton x .4 - Seton Hall x .15 - Georgetown = .0117 or less than 1.2%. If we had gone into the NCAA tournament as a 2 seed we would have had a significantly better chance of winning the whole thing than we had of losing all of our final four games. A 3 seed would have likely given us a slightly better chance. Food for thought when considering how monumental this collapse was.
The odds of losing the last 4 games are about the same as beating the same 4 teams the first time. In fact, the first Creighton game, is still the unlikeliest win of the year on KenPom. It sucks, but they were lucky at the start of the year and unlucky at the end, like a bizarro opposite from the 2010 MU team.
I never really thought in terms of MU winning the NCAA tournament, but with a 3 seed and the momentum of a strong conference season, a trip to the Sweet 16 seemed like a good possibility. Now, facing a 5 or 6 seed, and a team that seems to have lost its confidence and is laboring to the finish, a first round exit seems depressingly likely and a trip to the Sweet 16 would be an upset.
Maybe they'll flip the usual script and show some life in the BET.
The title of this thread makes me sad. 12-6 is a hell of a season now, with such a weak overall conference this season? We have very low expectations at this point if that's the case. And we think we're getting a 5 or 6 seed? At this point, I'm pretty sure we are a 7 seed at best and if we are one and done in the BET, my guess is we end up as a 9. That, in my mind, is not a "hell of a season" but a rather mediocre one.
Quote from: bilsu on March 10, 2019, 11:17:45 AM
I just do not think posters are recognizing how much some teams improved during the season. Villanova and MU tied with 6 teams for last place in the second half of the Big East season. MU lost the second game of every team they split the season match up with.
2nd half 1st half Final
Xavier 6-3 3-6 9-9
Seton Hall 5-4 4-5 9-9
Creighton 5-4 4-5 9-9
Georgetown 5-4 4-5 9-9
Villanova 4-5 9-0 13-5
MU 4-5 8-1 12-6
St. John's 4-5 4-5 8-10
Butler 4-5 3-6 7-11
Providence 4-5 3-6 7-11
DePaul 4-5 3-6 7-11
So does everyone think we will better next season? Does everyone believe we will lower our turnover rate? Will Kobe and Greg help at the guard position? I have my doubts.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 11, 2019, 08:34:46 AM
So does everyone think we will better next season? Does everyone believe we will lower our turnover rate? Will Kobe and Greg help at the guard position? I have my doubts.
I think we will be better if everyone we are expecting to be here is actually here.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 11, 2019, 08:34:46 AM
So does everyone think we will better next season? Does everyone believe we will lower our turnover rate? Will Kobe and Greg help at the guard position? I have my doubts.
5 starters back, 7 of the top 8 back, adding two guards with D-1 experience. I have no doubt the team will be better. The question is how much better. A little better would be a 4 seed, a lot better is a 1 or 2.
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on March 11, 2019, 03:24:00 AM
I think if people proposed a 23-8 season, second place in the BE and a BE record of 12-6, Most people would have signed up.
Not so sure that is true if we new the balance of the conference would not be in the top 25.
I think Lenny said it best:
"Expectations change during a season. 23-8 going in? Yeah, about right. 23-8 when you're 23-4 and have 2 home games left against meh to sub meh teams? Not so much. 12-6 conference record? Going in and not knowing the weakness of the Big East? Sure. From 12-2? Hell no. 2nd place going in? Why not? 2nd place when one stinkin' win in your last 4 means a conference title? Not a chance in the world. Meeting preseason expectations rings hollow when every star aligns to make a season special and you spit out the bit down the stretch. Barring a turnaround (BE tourney title and a S16 run) this season will be a disappointment."
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on March 11, 2019, 11:13:24 AM
I think Lenny said it best:
"Expectations change during a season. 23-8 going in? Yeah, about right. 23-8 when you're 23-4 and have 2 home games left against meh to sub meh teams? Not so much. 12-6 conference record? Going in and not knowing the weakness of the Big East? Sure. From 12-2? Hell no. 2nd place going in? Why not? 2nd place when one stinkin' win in your last 4 means a conference title? Not a chance in the world. Meeting preseason expectations rings hollow when every star aligns to make a season special and you spit out the bit down the stretch. Barring a turnaround (BE tourney title and a S16 run) this season will be a disappointment."
This x10000000000000.
I define "great season" as one where recurring problems are finally corrected and the team plays up to its full potential. And with this team's potential, we should be an Elite Eight-caliber team.
Looking at turnovers, the inability to consistently break a press, rushed shots at terrible times...we are not remotely close to there yet.
I've said that exact same thing to several people the last couple of days. Barring a BET title and the Sweet 16, the way the last two weeks went will weight too heavily to make it a helluva regular season. Can't fail the final and still have it be a helluva regular season.
Quote from: Eye on March 11, 2019, 11:39:23 AM
I've said that exact same thing to several people the last couple of days. Barring a BET title and the Sweet 16, the way the last two weeks went will weight too heavily to make it a helluva regular season. Can't fail the final and still have it be a helluva regular season.
What would make it a successful season? Not really directed solely at you, but considering this rough stretch what would it take?
Big East tourney title and a first round NCAA loss?
Lose to SJU/DePaul but make the S16?
1 NYC win and round of 32?
Genuinely curious for everyone's thoughts.
Quote from: Eye on March 11, 2019, 11:39:23 AM
I've said that exact same thing to several people the last couple of days. Barring a BET title and the Sweet 16, the way the last two weeks went will weight too heavily to make it a helluva regular season. Can't fail the final and still have it be a helluva regular season.
This isn't failing the final.
What is being described is more like taking a 31 question final, and then the teacher throwing out the first 27 answers because you got most of them correct and saying that the last 4 answers are all that you will be measured on.
Sure, from a personal disappointment lens, weighing the last four games more heavily makes sense. From a grading the team and the coach perspective, the final result is what will be evaluated, not how you got there.
Now, if you want to make an argument that the 4-game losing streak is evidence of Wojo's coaching ability, that makes some sense (For example could this be proof that Wojo is good at scouting opponents but not at anticipating and adjusting to their adjustments the 2nd time around?).
Also, I had several classes where I could fail the final and still get an A, so the metaphor doesn't really work. You can't say expectations changed midseason without recognizing how good the first part of the season was. Gotta take the good and the bad into account.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 11, 2019, 08:34:46 AM
So does everyone think we will better next season? Does everyone believe we will lower our turnover rate? Will Kobe and Greg help at the guard position? I have my doubts.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Quote from: Jon on March 11, 2019, 01:39:04 AM
So...basically you are saying he is utterly unprepared for a job which pays him close to 2 Clams a year
I'm just saying he runs the same plays on offense all time and lacks creativity to come up with something different. Our opponents have figured it out and have adjusted. If he can't come up with alternative plays, he should bring someone on his staff who can.
Quote from: bilsu on March 10, 2019, 11:17:45 AM
I just do not think posters are recognizing how much some teams improved during the season. Villanova and MU tied with 6 teams for last place in the second half of the Big East season. MU lost the second game of every team they split the season match up with.
2nd half 1st half Final
Xavier 6-3 3-6 9-9
Seton Hall 5-4 4-5 9-9
Creighton 5-4 4-5 9-9
Georgetown 5-4 4-5 9-9
Villanova 4-5 9-0 13-5
MU 4-5 8-1 12-6
St. John's 4-5 4-5 8-10
Butler 4-5 3-6 7-11
Providence 4-5 3-6 7-11
DePaul 4-5 3-6 7-11
This is good stuff. Thanks for posting.
I still haven't sorted out how I feel about the season at this time. I find myself agreeing with a lot of the posts both positive and negative. While a little down now, I've still got some optimism. (Remember, 1977 didn't finish so hot either.)
As to next year, I think it's likely the team is better but will have a harder time getting to 12-6 due to overall increased strength of the BE.
Spaniel
Weren't you the guy telling us older guys to get over the '77 team? Why in the hell are you referencing a team you told others to stop talking about? FYI--we were talking about '77 in reference to this team. Consensus--apples and oranges, zero comparison can be made outside of both teams representing Marquette University.
Quote from: jutaw22mu on March 11, 2019, 01:05:51 PM
I'm just saying he runs the same plays on offense all time and lacks creativity to come up with something different. Our opponents have figured it out and have adjusted. If he can't come up with alternative plays, he should bring someone on his staff who can.
Defensively too...let's see two Freshman Guards are tearing you a part with penetration...at some point don't you think "okay, we need to stop that, right here, right now". Then wouldn't you TRY something different, like a couple of possessions of zone, or how about some trapping?? What exactly do you think two Freshman Guards are going to do against a trap from long armed Bailey and Jamal Cain?? I can tell you what they will do...turn it over. Against a zone..no way they penetrate that, so they get "Jack" happy and start chucking. Figure it out!
When a team is shooting above 50% from 3, a zone is not the answer.
Quote from: Its DJOver on March 11, 2019, 02:48:40 PM
When a team is shooting above 50% from 3, a zone is not the answer.
Maybe, maybe not..that was a VERY unusually good day from 3 for Georgetown. However my point was to TRY something different. My preference would have been traps, or a little full court(looser) pressure...make them start their offense later. You don't think Freshman Guards are going to turn it over against Traps?? Look what Markus does against them, I will wager BIG $$, those two Freshman would have really struggled with it. Wojo couldn't figure that out?? No one on the staff could figure that out?? Really??
Quote from: muguru on March 11, 2019, 02:58:19 PM
Maybe, maybe not..that was a VERY unusually good day from 3 for Georgetown. However my point was to TRY something different. My preference would have been traps, or a little full court(looser) pressure...make them start their offense later. You don't think Freshman Guards are going to turn it over against Traps?? Look what Markus does against them, I will wager BIG $$, those two Freshman would have really struggled with it. Wojo couldn't figure that out?? No one on the staff could figure that out?? Really??
We did try something different. Early in the game Sam was matched up on McClung, and after he got burned on two straight possessions, Wojo switched him off.
Both McClung and Akinjo hit some extremely tough shots that they don't normally hit. Akinjo is a 38% 3-point shooter that was in a rut, going 6-25 (24%) over his last 8 games. The big money bet would have been that he doesn't snap out of it against the best defense in the conference, so naturally he goes 5-8 with a lot of them against good D, where he just pulls up Markus-esque.
McClung is a 28% 3-point shooter that was also in a rut, going 4-20 (20%) over his last 4 games. The big money bet would have been the he doesn't snap out of it against the best defense in the conference, so naturally he goes 2-3 including one shot clock three that was a prayer.
Georgetown shot above 50% from three in both halves, and at halftime I was thinking that our D wasn't that bad, and Gtown was just hitting a ton of tough shots, and if they came back down to earth we would win. Unfortunately, they did not revert to their averages and shot lights out in the second half too. Even with 5 minutes I thought the safe bet was to keep playing them straight up and let them force tough shots, and other than one tough McClung jumper, and a lay-up immediately following an Oboard neither hit a shot, they did all their damage from the FT line with a lot of their attempts off questionable whistles. I was perfectly okay with forcing Pickett to take that 3, and unfortunately he buried it.
They way that the refs were blowing the whistle I would have been uncomfortable attempting a trap. Considering that we only fouled twice to extend (one on Joey, one on Sacar), and we still had three other players with 4 fouls or fouled out, we would have finished the game with Cam in, coincidentally our best three point shooter going strictly off percentages.
Quote from: MUeagle1090 on March 11, 2019, 12:06:33 PM
What would make it a successful season? Not really directed solely at you, but considering this rough stretch what would it take?
Big East tourney title and a first round NCAA loss?
Lose to SJU/DePaul but make the S16?
1 NYC win and round of 32?
Genuinely curious for everyone's thoughts.
At this point, 3 more wins of any kind. I'd prefer they not be 2 in the Big East and 1 in the NCAA tournament, but three more wins of any kind and this is a successful season. The bar moved in the last two weeks. Had we won 2 (probably even 1) of the previous 4, this season would have been a success no matter what else happened as long as there were no permanent injuries. 2 more is a good season, any less is meh. That's just my opinion.
Quote from: MUeagle1090 on March 11, 2019, 12:06:33 PM
What would make it a successful season? Not really directed solely at you, but considering this rough stretch what would it take?
Big East tourney title and a first round NCAA loss?
Lose to SJU/DePaul but make the S16?
1 NYC win and round of 32?
Genuinely curious for everyone's thoughts.
Great question. For me, it's all about the NCAA tournament now.
Loss in Round of 64 = Huge disappointment. Five years and zero NCAA tourney victories is unacceptable at a program like Marquette.
Loss in Round of 32 = Solid season and glad to see Wojo get that NCAA tourney monkey off his back.
Sweet 16 or better = We can all forget about this 4 game skid and get back on the Wojo bandwagon.
This year's NCAA is Wojo's chance to prove himself as a coach. I don't give a damn about crapshoots or bad matchups or 23-4 or the 2020 recruiting class. The time is now for him to win an NCAA tournament game, because that's what all college basketball coaches, fair or not, are ultimately judged on.
Quote from: Research Report on March 11, 2019, 03:54:40 PM
Great question. For me, it's all about the NCAA tournament now.
Loss in Round of 64 = Huge disappointment. Five years and zero NCAA tourney victories is unacceptable at a program like Marquette.
Loss in Round of 32 = Solid season and glad to see Wojo get that NCAA tourney monkey off his back.
Sweet 16 or better = We can all forget about this 4 game skid and get back on the Wojo bandwagon.
This year's NCAA is Wojo's chance to prove himself as a coach. I don't give a damn about crapshoots or bad matchups or 23-4 or the 2020 recruiting class. The time is now for him to win an NCAA tournament game, because that's what all college basketball coaches, fair or not, are ultimately judged on.
It would be six, because Buzzard didn't deliver any his last year either...he didn't even get us in to the NIT. That said, two years ago we lost to a Final Four team in South Carolina. Crapshoot.
Quote from: Cheeks on March 11, 2019, 04:17:17 PM
It would be six, because Buzzard didn't deliver any his last year either...he didn't even get us in to the NIT. That said, two years ago we lost to a Final Four team in South Carolina. Crapshoot.
Widely considered SNUBBED from the NIT if you recall
http://archive.jsonline.com/sports/goldeneagles/nit-snub-leads-to-abrupt-end-of-marquettes-season-b99226497z1-250558831.html
Quote from: NickelDimer on March 11, 2019, 04:25:10 PM
Widely considered SNUBBED from the NIT if you recall
http://archive.jsonline.com/sports/goldeneagles/nit-snub-leads-to-abrupt-end-of-marquettes-season-b99226497z1-250558831.html
Snubbed means didn't get in, correct? Besides, it doesn't matter to 99% of our fans apparently.
Quote from: Cheeks on March 11, 2019, 04:17:17 PM
It would be six, because Buzzard didn't deliver any his last year either...he didn't even get us in to the NIT. That said, two years ago we lost to a Final Four team in South Carolina. Crapshoot.
I was referring to the five years Wojo's been here.
Quote from: Cheeks on March 11, 2019, 04:26:12 PM
Snubbed means didn't get in, correct? Besides, it doesn't matter to 99% of our fans apparently.
Matters to you so just wanted to make sure you recalled.
Quote from: Research Report on March 11, 2019, 04:27:28 PM
I was referring to the five years Wojo's been here.
Understood, but because you said "a program like Marquette's", I included the entire run from previous coach to current coach. Let's hope it doesn't happen.
Quote from: Goose on March 11, 2019, 01:47:34 PM
Spaniel
Weren't you the guy telling us older guys to get over the '77 team? Why in the hell are you referencing a team you told others to stop talking about? FYI--we were talking about '77 in reference to this team. Consensus--apples and oranges, zero comparison can be made outside of both teams representing Marquette University.
LOL I would never tell anyone to stop talking about 1977 - I was there! I just think it was a different era and the game has exploded in popularity since then. It is a lot harder to field a championship caliber team these days, especially in a short period of time. That was my only point in referencing 1977. Not only are the teams apples and oranges, so are the eras they competed in. I appreciated the way the 1977 team represented the university and appreciate the accomplishments of this team as well.
The 1977 team remains the gold standard. I wanted to point out how that team kind of stumbled into the tournament - as this one appears to be doing - and it all turned out OK in the end. Hopefully there are a lot of meaningful games coming up for this team. Go Marquette!
Spaniel
Was only teasing. I agree with your post, really is different times.
I appreciate that Goose. Hard to tell sometimes with the way the last 2 weeks have gone!
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Quote from: Its DJOver on March 11, 2019, 02:48:40 PM
When a team is shooting above 50% from 3, a zone is not the answer.
When a team has a guy blowing by his defender and getting fouled in the lane time after time after time maybe it is.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 11, 2019, 10:36:27 PM
When a team has a guy blowing by his defender and getting fouled in the lane time after time after time maybe it is.
Akinjo shot 3-10 on 2s, McClung shot 3-5 on 2s, and other than the FTs with 10 seconds left when we were extending the game they combined to shoot 2 FTs in the last 4 minutes (missing one). Our 2 point D was not the problem, for the game Gtown shot under 40% from 2s, where they beat us was shooting an absurd 58% from 3, that's over 20% higher than their 36% team average, for the game they made 11 three's and only 12 two's. Throwing a zone in the mix was not the answer.
Der is know comparision between the '77 team's losin' streak and dis yeer's losin' streak. Absolutely nun, hey?
1977 hugely important. 1974. 1970. 1955. Etc. But those were years when televised basketball was rare, ESPN didn't exist, travel was harder, and scholarships allowed teams to horde players.
The world changed....a lot. Doesn't mean we cannot get there, but I believe realism has to be factored in. There's a reason why we have to keep hiring assistant coaches. There is a reason why some kids don't like 20 degrees for 3 straight months and grey skies. Scholarships and the explosion of programs has created many more opportunities. Xavier was a joke program in the 60's and 70's. Gonzaga...LOL. University of Florida...if you would have told those people even in the 90's they would win 2 national titles and play for a third in the next decade they would all be laughing on the ground.
We have a fighter's chance and our history should never be forgotten or a beacon of what is possible, but it also took some very special circumstances and special human beings to make that happen. Nothing routine about it.
Cheeks
I love you as a poster, but you talk a lot of crazy stuff. No, we are not repeating the Al era at any point. That said, to believe we cannot be a national recognized program is false. If Gonzaga can be a top five program, no reason in hell MU cannot be as well.
Quote from: Goose on March 12, 2019, 07:34:12 PM
Cheeks
I love you as a poster, but you talk a lot of crazy stuff. No, we are not repeating the Al era at any point. That said, to believe we cannot be a national recognized program is false. If Gonzaga can be a top five program, no reason in hell MU cannot be as well.
Exactly. Tale of the tape: Marquette ve Gonzaga.
History: Advantage Marquette
City: Advantage Marquette
Conference: Advantage Marquette
Arena: Advantage Marquette
Crap conference, minor league city in the middle of nowhere, very little TV exposure, no history, etc., yet somehow the very less than dynamic Mark Few has made Spokane an "it" place to be. 7 or 8 years ago we were on the verge, no reason it can't happen here.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 12, 2019, 06:26:30 PM
Der is know comparision between the '77 team's losin' streak and dis yeer's losin' streak. Absolutely nun, hey?
Why? This isn't a snarky question, I wasn't alive so I don't have the context. The stories I have always been told was that at the time the streak was devastating and demoralizing but obviously wasn't the end of the story. Is there context that I'm missing that actually makes that streak "better" than it appears to the eye?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 12, 2019, 08:35:37 PM
Why? This isn't a snarky question, I wasn't alive so I don't have the context. The stories I have always been told was that at the time the streak was devastating and demoralizing but obviously wasn't the end of the story. Is there context that I'm missing that actually makes that streak "better" than it appears to the eye?
Simple answer: #15
#31
#54
#33
#55
#23
Doc
You could add their draft selection numbers as well. I believe all were drafted in the NBA, with four making the show.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 12, 2019, 08:42:40 PM
Simple answer: #15
#31
#54
#33
#55
#23
I wasn't asking about the team. I was asking about the losing streak. Wouldn't a better team mean the losing streak was worse?
Quote from: Goose on March 12, 2019, 07:34:12 PM
Cheeks
I love you as a poster, but you talk a lot of crazy stuff. No, we are not repeating the Al era at any point. That said, to believe we cannot be a national recognized program is false. If Gonzaga can be a top five program, no reason in hell MU cannot be as well.
We already are a national program, I don't believe I said we cannot as I don't believe that...I believe we are a national program already. I get crazy with the Al comparisons, the 1970's stuff, etc.
Gonzaga is an exception the rule because of the conference they are in....and it took them nearly 20 years to get to this stage. They are guaranteed to get to 24 wins every year bas d on their conference schedule alone. When Few retires, what happens to them? I think they go down considerably.
When you play in a tough conference, momentum is a bitch. Sustainability very tough. But national program, we are already there and have been since the Crean years.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 12, 2019, 07:58:55 PM
Exactly. Tale of the tape: Marquette ve Gonzaga.
History: Advantage Marquette
City: Advantage Marquette
Conference: Advantage Marquette
Arena: Advantage Marquette
Crap conference, minor league city in the middle of nowhere, very little TV exposure, no history, etc., yet somehow the very less than dynamic Mark Few has made Spokane an "it" place to be. 7 or 8 years ago we were on the verge, no reason it can't happen here.
All opinions...nothing more.
I love Milwaukee, would take Spokane at times. Different strokes for different folks...eye of the beholder. Not everyone likes urban areas, just as not everyone likes college towns. Same for weather, etc, etc.
Conference is advantage until it isn't. Gonzaga will win that conference every year, always be top 20 because of it...their easier conference helps them. Eye of the beholder. Think Memphis back in the day. Big East huge befit for us, but also a problem, too. 9 other teams can beat you any night...two other WCC teams can do that to Gonzaga.
Arena...eye of the beholder. Their little on campus arena is sold out always always always. We have a great arena, play second fiddle to Bucks and so far sell out most games...but tarps still come out at times.
History is the only one....but guess what, 17 year old recruits think history started around 2000....relativity. If history was as strong an indicator as some would like, Minnesota football would still be dominant...so would Fordham, Army, Navy. St. John's and DePaul basketball, Houston, Georgetown, NC State. History is great, but is fleeting and relative
Quote from: Cheeks on March 12, 2019, 11:11:34 PM
All opinions...nothing more.
Right. A city in the east Washington desert may be an advantage over an NBA city on Lake Michigan.
Games that 90% of the USA never sees (because they're not on TV or are on so late people have gone to bed) are an advantage over having almost all of your games on national TV, most weeknights at primetime.
Having zero history is an advantage to having a storied past.
And finally, if being in the Big East isn't an advantage over being in the WAC, why have you referred to it as the crown jewel of the Cords/Crean administration? Are you now saying that maybe we would have been better off moving down in class to a conference we could have dominated? Is it now Cord's and Crean's fault instead of something to their credit? LOL.
Pretty much everything on Scoop is a matter of opinion, though. Some informed, some logical, some not so much. Even contradictory ones can amuse. Carry on.
Let's rest up the injured boys and kick some tail.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 12, 2019, 07:58:55 PM
Exactly. Tale of the tape: Marquette ve Gonzaga.
History: Advantage Marquette
City: Advantage Marquette
Conference: Advantage Marquette
Arena: Advantage Marquette
Crap conference, minor league city in the middle of nowhere, very little TV exposure, no history, etc., yet somehow the very less than dynamic Mark Few has made Spokane an "it" place to be. 7 or 8 years ago we were on the verge, no reason it can't happen here.
Agreed with the above. Now instead of running our coach out of town prematurely we need to have Wojo stick around for 15-20 years and the coaching tenure advantage will be marked in our favor as well.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 12, 2019, 11:57:40 PM
Let's rest up the injured boys and kick some tail.
Hear hear! Let's get em boys!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 12, 2019, 11:47:32 PM
Right. A city in the east Washington desert may be an advantage over an NBA city on Lake Michigan.
Games that 90% of the USA never sees (because they're not on TV or are on so late people have gone to bed) are an advantage over having almost all of your games on national TV, most weeknights at primetime.
Having zero history is an advantage to having a storied past.
And finally, if being in the Big East isn't an advantage over being in the WAC, why have you referred to it as the crown jewel of the Cords/Crean administration? Are you now saying that maybe we would have been better off moving down in class to a conference we could have dominated? Is it now Cord's and Crean's fault instead of something to their credit? LOL.
Pretty much everything on Scoop is a matter of opinion, though. Some informed, some logical, some not so much. Even contradictory ones can amuse. Carry on.
Not everyone likes 10 below in the winter, higher crime, etc. Sorry to break it to you. If NBA city was crucial, how have programs like Duke, UNc, Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas, and on and on and on done so well.
Different strokes for different folks. Surely Paul George will go back to his hometown in Los Angeles. Surely Bryce Harper will go to the Dodgers. Surely ....stop calling me Shirley.
Please read what I said again about the conference, it appears it didn't take root. It's a benefit, but also a curse. If you are really good, like Nova, it is a huge benefit. If you are trying to get there, it can make the sustainability year in and year out difficult to maintain. I love that we are in the Big East, all I am saying is the WCC means Gonzaga will remain ranked forever as long as Few is there. It's like the joke of the Big Ten football divisions and how Wisconsin has a built in lay up every year and that benefits them as a result. If they played in the other division the competition would be better, but their results poorer.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 12, 2019, 11:47:32 PM
Right. A city in the east Washington desert may be an advantage over an NBA city on Lake Michigan.
Games that 90% of the USA never sees (because they're not on TV or are on so late people have gone to bed) are an advantage over having almost all of your games on national TV, most weeknights at primetime.
Having zero history is an advantage to having a storied past.
And finally, if being in the Big East isn't an advantage over being in the WAC, why have you referred to it as the crown jewel of the Cords/Crean administration? Are you now saying that maybe we would have been better off moving down in class to a conference we could have dominated? Is it now Cord's and Crean's fault instead of something to their credit? LOL.
Pretty much everything on Scoop is a matter of opinion, though. Some informed, some logical, some not so much. Even contradictory ones can amuse. Carry on.
Lenny
You are forgetting the Bing Factor: Der Bingle went to Gonzaga.
Advantage Zags
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Quote from: Cheeks on March 13, 2019, 02:46:33 AM
Not everyone likes 10 below in the winter, higher crime, etc. Sorry to break it to you. If NBA city was crucial, how have programs like Duke, UNc, Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas, and on and on and on done so well.
Different strokes for different folks. Surely Paul George will go back to his hometown in Los Angeles. Surely Bryce Harper will go to the Dodgers. Surely ....stop calling me Shirley.
Please read what I said again about the conference, it appears it didn't take root. It's a benefit, but also a curse. If you are really good, like Nova, it is a huge benefit. If you are trying to get there, it can make the sustainability year in and year out difficult to maintain. I love that we are in the Big East, all I am saying is the WCC means Gonzaga will remain ranked forever as long as Few is there. It's like the joke of the Big Ten football divisions and how Wisconsin has a built in lay up every year and that benefits them as a result. If they played in the other division the competition would be better, but their results poorer.
1.The weather is beyond our control. It's crummy in Milwaukee, a disadvantage against many and a push against some. Never said differently, though if I were you I would say "some kids love the cold!" and be technically factual and intentionally misleading. BTW, the weather sucks in Spokane too.
2.The reason Harper didn't go to LA was $$$. Unless you're suggesting that Gonzaga outbids us for players, your argument is senseless.
3. A "blessing and a curse"? Fine. Most things are. But you're on record as saying that all things considered the Big East is a NET blessing. Conversely, I think you would agree that a conference like CUSA or the WAC is a NET negative compared to the Big East. If not, why did we move.
4. You never touched on TV, so I'll assume you agree that being televised nationally in prime time regularly is an advantage to an occasional national game that ends after midnight in most of the country.
Gonzaga is such a weird program. Hard to compare them to anybody honestly. Villanova is the better aspiration for a program like Marquette IMHO. Absolutely possible for Marquette to reach those levels with the right coach in place. Is Wojo that coach? I hope so, but I'm not convinced yet.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 13, 2019, 10:15:37 AM
Gonzaga is such a weird program. Hard to compare to them to anybody honestly. Villanova is the better aspiration for a program like Marquette IMHO. Absolutely possible for Marquette to reach those levels with the right coach in place. Is Wojo that coach? I hope so, but I'm not convinced yet.
Gonzaga also has a weird international recruiting pipeline that I don't think anyone else can really replicate. Hachimura couldn't have been on too many people's radar considering the overall talent level coming out of Japan. When they made their run to the championship game, they were anchored by 7-1 Karnowski out of Poland. They've got Arlauskas coming from Lithuania next year, and he's supposed to be the real deal. I have no idea how they established this pipeline, but other than SMC down under, no other program really comes close in that regard.