MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: jesmu84 on March 06, 2019, 07:45:00 PM
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Hell yes. Get it done, MU!
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Some people just want to watch scoop burn
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I would say hell no but we all know the administration loves the guy so he will probably get paid
If he doesnt produce a sweet 16 this or next year what the hell else are we waiting for. Experiment should be over. Duke aint gonna be calling
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Yeah extend the right foot firmly into his ass
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Lol Jes trying to get scoop takes material
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Wojo sounded upbeat in the post game show...that was absolutely disgusting to hear. Someone needs to have the balls to ask him..."Coach, you have said that this is all on you...yet the same things keep happening...how do you explain that"??
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(https://media.giphy.com/media/l0IyltX4JWh8rFXLa/giphy.gif)
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Wojo sounded upbeat in the post game show...that was absolutely disgusting to hear. Someone needs to have the balls to ask him..."Coach, you have said that this is all on you...yet the same things keep happening...how do you explain that"??
How many threads are you going to state the same thing again?
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Contact extension?! LOL
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No contract extension, period! Sign a good coach and point guard. Then this team would be good to go!
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This was meant to be a troll thread, but the reality is that it wouldn’t be surprising in the least to see Wojo get a contract extension after the season. Let’s hope we can at least win a game or two in the NCAAs to justify it. If not, that 23-4 record will look a lot like fool’s gold that came as the result of a down Big East.
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How about an athletic forward that is tough. Bob Lackey type
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For all those against a contract extension, it should be noted that an extension by no means guarantee's that he will see it out, it means that he has another tool to use when recruiting. How many coaches out there have actually seen out their entire contract? They either get fired, get offered a better job and leave, or retire (sometimes a forced retirement). Wojo will absolutely get an extension in the offseason.
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For all those against a contract extension, it should be noted that an extension by no means guarantee's that he will see it out, it means that he has another tool to use when recruiting. How many coaches out there have actually seen out their entire contract? They either get fired, get offered a better job and leave, or retire (sometimes a forced retirement). Wojo will absolutely get an extension in the offseason.
He already has a rollover contract for recruiting.
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He already has a rollover contract for recruiting.
He's recruiting more than just 2020 kids.
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I think Fred Hoiberg is looking for a job.
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He will get and deserves an extension.
He wins the right way and is building a good program.
Plenty of people will want him.
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The program is missing a good point guard!
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He will get and deserves an extension.
He wins the right way and is building a good program.
Plenty of people will want him.
... correct if your expections are low enough he deserves a big raise.
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He's recruiting more than just 2020 kids.
Three year rolling I believe.
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Considering the money Wojo is paid, I would expect much more than just a good program!
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Three year rolling I believe.
Still sends a bad message to recruits. Coaches recruiting against him will use this. Gard apparently uses this tactic frequently. "Marquette's AD doesn't even have enough faith in Wojo to extend his contract, you don't know for sure that you'll be playing for him". Bottom line, you still extend it, once again how many coaches actually see out the entirety of their contract?
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I have no idea about his contract. When does it run out?
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I think Fred Hoiberg is looking for a job.
Not at MU
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Newsdreams, you are probably correct, but I would contact Fred. I don’t think this program will get any better under Wojo.
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Still sends a bad message to recruits. Coaches recruiting against him will use this. Gard apparently uses this tactic frequently. "Marquette's AD doesn't even have enough faith in Wojo to extend his contract, you don't know for sure that you'll be playing for him". Bottom line, you still extend it, once again how many coaches actually see out the entirety of their contract?
Season you're playing plus 3. MU will reup him in the off-season, though. Next year's team will be dynamite.
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Worst coach in the history of mankind. Fire him before he goes to bed tonight.
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Still sends a bad message to recruits. Coaches recruiting against him will use this. Gard apparently uses this tactic frequently. "Marquette's AD doesn't even have enough faith in Wojo to extend his contract, you don't know for sure that you'll be playing for him". Bottom line, you still extend it, once again how many coaches actually see out the entirety of their contract?
I’m on board with Wojo, no issues with extending him, especially with how he runs this program. Teams go through rough patches. He’s not Mullin.
That said, extend him but lower the buyout significantly. Maybe one year’s pay. So, you extend but also have flexibility.
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MU82, You’re absolutely correct!
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Season you're playing plus 3. MU will reup him in the off-season, though. Next year's team will be dynamite.
Hear me out. In years 1, 2, 3 the 3 year rolling idea works, because Wojo is still selling a vision. If he's still on the annual whatever year it is +3 in years 6, 7 and onward, yea you can technically say that you'll be around for the entirety of a players career, but it still sends a message of the school not trusting Wojo, which other coaches will start to exploit. You give him a 2-3 year extension, not just so that he can say that he'll be around, but to ensure high schoolers that he's building a program. And in end end, it probably won't matter, I've asked twice now and I'll ask again, how many coaches actually see out the entirety of their contract?
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Wojo is more likely to get poached by Duke than fired.
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If MU is a player at the highest levels of D1 basketball, you extend him and not worry about the buy out. They have the money if they need it. Worrying about buy outs are what the UWMs of the world do.
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The only thing Wojo is selling is pipe dreams!
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The only thing Wojo is selling is pipe dreams!
Been waiting all season to come back eh?
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TAMU Eagle, I’m not back until Wojo is gone. Thank you for your kind comments. :)
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I think he should absolutely be extended. Yes a thoroughly frustrating 3 game losing streak but hes had a top 15 team for most of the season and has 2 non contributing seniors.
The only mistake i have seen from Wojo is attempting to make Markus into a PG. I think it has hurt his ability to recruit other PGs. Unfortunately his backup plan, in Chartouney, was just was an absolute failure. To the point we need to play Sacar or Sam as our backup PG. His experiment with Markus is a failure and he did not have an option B. Ok he made a mistake. Some will say he should have seen this coming. I thought Markus as a PG was maddening last year.
Apart from this mistakrs at PG i think Wojo has done a great job in getting this program back. Next year we will have some PG options an Markus needs to be a shooter or at least not the primary ball handler. All things considered give him a 4-5 yr extension and keep the upward rise going.
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Yes.
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TAMU Eagle, I’m not back until Wojo is gone.
See ya!
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The only mistake i have seen from Wojo is attempting to make Markus into a PG.
I don’t think he had much choice. If anything, I think it was just poor roster construction. A lot of whiffs on in recruiting and bad planning imo.
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I don’t think he had much choice. If anything, I think it was just poor roster construction. A lot of whiffs on in recruiting and bad planning imo.
Yes agree, i also think that potential recruits seeing a 5’11” freshman that was high scoring n that led the nation in 3 pt fg% as the heir apparent PG. Whether that was the case or not it became the case with our inability to land a true. Whether Wojo couldnt sign a PG or he had designs on Markus being our PG and simply misjudged we will never really know.
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Yes, this should and will happen.
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If MU is a player at the highest levels of D1 basketball, you extend him and not worry about the buy out. They have the money if they need it. Worrying about buy outs are what the UWMs of the world do.
Maybe, but they were stuck with Buzz until he left because of his buy out. You give yourself flexibility, especially when a new coach would cost $2 million a year or so.
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Yes absolutely.
I just can’t decide if I want MU to stretch to the 300M guaranteed mark. In my heart I know that’s what it’ll take, but my mind says gotta make the last few years team options
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Wojo is more likely to get poached by Duke than fired.
LOL! I'm in favor of an extension but this statement is silly and untrue.
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Would you all of have fired a guy with an overall record of 85-65, Conference record of 28-42, 2 NCAA's (1 Win), and 1 NIT appearance after 5 years?
Wojo is 96-65, 43-46, 2 NCAA's (0 wins yet), and 1 NIT appearance.
By the way guy one was National Runner-Up in year 6.
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His coaching is fine.The problem is roster construction.Got caught short on guards who can handle.Yes that is on him but with Koby and hopefully Torrence next year that should be corrected.
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LOL! I'm in favor of an extension but this statement is silly and untrue.
Barring some unforeseen calamitous event, there is zero chance that Wojo is fired any time soon. There is a chance, however small, that Duke tries to grab him when K retires. Ergo, the statement is completely true.
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Wojo is more likely to get poached by Duke than fired.
Y wood Duke want him. Dey kan due bedder, hey?
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Because Duke is likely going to want a coach from the K tree. Because Brey isn't coming, Snyder has too much baggage, and Wojo is more successful than Collins.
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Dis iz yeer 5, wee r free ta judge, aina?
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You wanted him gone after the IU an Kansas games. I think it is safe to assume you have judged.
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Pretty sure eye'm knot da only won. Game 3 of the losing streak and he duzant have an answer four the same mistakes made vs. Nova or Creighton. Caught wit his pants down and know point guard. Tell me watt y'all cee in Chartouny dat warrants a D1 schollie, hey?
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Would you all of have fired a guy with an overall record of 85-65, Conference record of 28-42, 2 NCAA's (1 Win), and 1 NIT appearance after 5 years?
Wojo is 96-65, 43-46, 2 NCAA's (0 wins yet), and 1 NIT appearance.
By the way guy one was National Runner-Up in year 6.
Just curious who this coach is.
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You wanted him gone after the IU an Kansas games. I think it is safe to assume you have judged.
Yeah, it's been a fun season so far Wojo-judgment-wise for some of our fun Scoopers.
After IU/KU, he had to go.
After 8-game winning streak/first Nova game, all kinds of mea culpas.
Now, he's gotta go again. We went 23-4 despite him, 0-3 because of him. Good stuff!
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C'mon Nads, ewe no ball well enough ta reelize da party's over. Da book is out on how ta beet MU and Wojo duzant have da roster or adjustments needed to make a minnow's splash in the Tourney, hey?
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And this is where I completely disagree with you. Nearly every team has a rough patch in conference. The coaches there develop a book and a plan on how to beat teams seeing them twice a year. Who has MU lost to outside the Big East? IU at Assembly Hall in the first road game of the year and Kansas when they were ranked #1. MU has beaten K-State, Louisville, Buffalo, Wisconsin. Now, granted, the scouting reports are going to get better as the year goes on and anybody MU plays is going to theoretically know the template to beating MU. But do they have the personnel? Do they really understand what happens when Sam or Markus gets a step near the 3 pt line?
For all of the kvetching, MU is 15 minutes away from being 26-4. MU is still one of the best 3 pt shooting teams in the country. MU has still been much improved defensively, even in the losses. MU still has Howard. I am not saying MU wins the championship or goes out in the first round. #crapshoot. What I am saying is I like our chances as much as I like all but a few teams in the country because of what MU has and what they have accomplished. Losing 3 straight the way MU has sucks. But in all 3 games, MU led after 35 minutes. Teams that haven't seen or played MU are not going to be able to do what these last 3 teams have done.
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Just curious who this coach is.
Coach K.
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Team can finish no worse than 2nd in the Big East. Going to NCAA tournament. Possible that every player of significance back next year, he will receive a raise and extension.
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WOJO makes $1.75......
He is in the lower tier of Big East Coaches......
Add a year extension and bump his pay to $2.25 across the board......
That is where Willard is at......(Scarey)
Even scarier......have a seat......Ewing makes what?????any guesses.....
PS.....Highest in the Big East.....Will follow up in an hour or 2 with the answer......
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Team can finish no worse than 2nd in the Big East. Going to NCAA tournament. Possible that every player of significance back next year, he will receive a raise and extension.
firing Wojo after a 2nd place finish (even in a down year for the Big East), being ranked top 10 for a few weeks during the season and making the tourney, probably as a 5 or 6 seed, 96 (likely more) wins in five years after taking over a cesspool of an environment, program trending upwards, would scare off potential coaches. There are jobs with the reputation of being a place you can't win, MU would get the reputation that expectations are WAY too high and unreasonable.
I know we fired Deane who had 100 wins in five years but that was justified because the program trajectory was trending downward. Once he got his own guys on the roster he was under .500 and recruiting was brutally bad (one signee during the 1998-99 signing year: Krunti Hester, ranked top 20 in Indiana). Wojo has trended upwards. Wojo is not getting fired.
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Barring some unforeseen calamitous event, there is zero chance that Wojo is fired any time soon. There is a chance, however small, that Duke tries to grab him when K retires. Ergo, the statement is completely true.
I thought you meant if Duke was looking for a coach now. There is a 0% chance Wojo would get the job if they were; hence as of today he is closer to being fired than being Duke's next coach.
Coach K isn't going to retire for 5+ years. I'd love for Wojo to be the top candidate in the future because it will mean he has continued to grow as a coach and MU will have had big success.
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Every year has played out as expected for the most part. Really not sure why we would be firing Wojo.
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I thought you meant if Duke was looking for a coach now. There is a 0% chance Wojo would get the job if they were; hence as of today he is closer to being fired than being Duke's next coach.
Coach K isn't going to retire for 5+ years. I'd love for Wojo to be the top candidate in the future because it will mean he has continued to grow as a coach and MU will have had big success.
there is a better chance in this off-season that K retire than Wojo gets fired. Both approach absolute zero.
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And this is where I completely disagree with you. Nearly every team has a rough patch in conference. The coaches there develop a book and a plan on how to beat teams seeing them twice a year. Who has MU lost to outside the Big East? IU at Assembly Hall in the first road game of the year and Kansas when they were ranked #1. MU has beaten K-State, Louisville, Buffalo, Wisconsin. Now, granted, the scouting reports are going to get better as the year goes on and anybody MU plays is going to theoretically know the template to beating MU. But do they have the personnel? Do they really understand what happens when Sam or Markus gets a step near the 3 pt line?
For all of the kvetching, MU is 15 minutes away from being 26-4. MU is still one of the best 3 pt shooting teams in the country. MU has still been much improved defensively, even in the losses. MU still has Howard. I am not saying MU wins the championship or goes out in the first round. #crapshoot. What I am saying is I like our chances as much as I like all but a few teams in the country because of what MU has and what they have accomplished. Losing 3 straight the way MU has sucks. But in all 3 games, MU led after 35 minutes. Teams that haven't seen or played MU are not going to be able to do what these last 3 teams have done.
Superbly stated.
C'mon Nads, ewe no ball well enough ta reelize da party's over. Da book is out on how ta beet MU and Wojo duzant have da roster or adjustments needed to make a minnow's splash in the Tourney, hey?
Nads due knot no dat ... and neether doo yoo. Nads don't hafta goh bak and find wat ewe wuz sayin' after IU and KU, due eye? Pretty shoor it wuzn't a predikshun of 23 winz & sekund in BEast. (Ouch. My brain hurts now.)
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firing Wojo after a 2nd place finish (even in a down year for the Big East), being ranked top 10 for a few weeks during the season and making the tourney, probably as a 5 or 6 seed, 96 (likely more) wins in five years after taking over a cesspool of an environment, program trending upwards, would scare off potential coaches. There are jobs with the reputation of being a place you can't win, MU would get the reputation that expectations are WAY too high and unreasonable.
I know we fired Deane who had 100 wins in five years but that was justified because the program trajectory was trending downward. Once he got his own guys on the roster he was under .500 and recruiting was brutally bad (one signee during the 1998-99 signing year: Krunti Hester, ranked top 20 in Indiana). Wojo has trended upwards. Wojo is not getting fired.
Yessir, Wojo over the past several games is "trending upward" Yesiree Bob!!!!!!
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Superbly stated.
Nads due knot no dat ... and neether doo yoo. Nads don't hafta goh bak and find wat ewe wuz sayin' after IU and KU, due eye? Pretty shoor it wuzn't a predikshun of 23 winz & sekund in BEast. (Ouch. My brain hurts now.)
Watt happened 2 months ago don't meen stink. How wee lookin' in March, hey?
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I am not a huge Wojo fan by any stretch (but warming up to him), but there is no way he deserves to be fired. If anything, as a young coach this is when we should start evaluating him. I think the next three to four years will tell us what kind of coach he will be. The one thing I would love is to have a long term coach at our school. This rebuilding thing every five or so years is kinda ridiculous. Let's keep Wojo and if in the next three to four years he substantially under performs, then look to move on.
Besides, kinda silly to fire a winning coach who is getting better with each passing year unless you have a for sure thing that is going to replace him. At this point I don't think that is the case.
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WOJO makes $1.75......
He is in the lower tier of Big East Coaches......
Source?
#FakeNews #Lies
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Because Duke is likely going to want a coach from the K tree. Because Brey isn't coming, Snyder has too much baggage, and Wojo is more successful than Collins.
why is Duke likely to want a member of the K family tree?
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Watt happened 2 months ago don't meen stink. How wee lookin' in March, hey?
Just sayin' that your prediction record ain't the greatest, ho?
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Yes, contract extension....doesn't he have a rollover year added auto? I think I said they would be a second place Big East team, that's what it looks like. No off court issues, good recruits coming in, ranked most of the year. Is this even a question?
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Yes, contract extension....doesn't he have a rollover year added auto? I think I said they would be a second place Big East team, that's what it looks like. No off court issues, good recruits coming in, ranked most of the year. Is this even a question?
It shouldn't be. But we lost more than zero games this season and we aren't going to the final four and we didn't win the big east. So, people want blood.
Oh, and also the same people who haven't liked wojo for years get to pile on again.
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So yo, I like him bedder dan Crean. Butt, he lives in a result driven world. Know style points four "he's tryin' hard," hey?
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So yo, I like him bedder dan Crean. Butt, he lives in a result driven world. Know style points four "he's tryin' hard," hey?
23-7 results upsetting to you tho?
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For me, coaches need to win in March. November, December, January, and February no matta, hey?
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For me, coaches need to win in March. November, December, January, and February no matta, hey?
Yes. And we are still in a good position to do that. Im optimistic, bur if we crash out in the first round Scoop *should* burn
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So yo, I like him bedder dan Crean. Butt, he lives in a result driven world. Know style points four "he's tryin' hard," hey?
Results have gotten better each year, that's producing results in my opinion.
I can rattle off a few programs that went with the approach of unrealistic results and ended up moving on from accomplished people that did wonders elsewhere while they never recovered.
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Cheeks
There is still a lot of work to be done. Many on here thought this was a 9-10 man deep team and that did not pan out. I will agree that there is improvement this season, but I cannot major steps forward. IMO, the best two best teams we beat were Nova and Buffalo, both at home and rest of W's were fairly close contests against fair competition. At no point this season did I think that the program finally has turned the corner.
Basically, I feel similar to how I felt going into the season. They lack talent, at least tier one talent, and lack of athleticism. While Howard has been a scoring machine, it has taken him to carry the team far too much with his scoring. Right now, I see they have three legit D1 players and remainder is role players. Theo John surprised me, but he is a ten minute guy on a really good team. They need better players moving forward because Wojo has not shown that he is guy who is going outcoach anyone.
On a positive note, the team has provided some exciting moments and fun games to be at or watch on TV. That has made this season improvement to me. But, it really does come down to winning when it counts and I do not have much confidence this team is playing the second weekend of the tourney. Sadly, I do think some of the good luck this season created overly high expectations from some fans.
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Cheeks
There is still a lot of work to be done. Many on here thought this was a 9-10 man deep team and that did not pan out. I will agree that there is improvement this season, but I cannot major steps forward. IMO, the best two best teams we beat were Nova and Buffalo, both at home and rest of W's were fairly close contests against fair competition. At no point this season did I think that the program finally has turned the corner.
Basically, I feel similar to how I felt going into the season. They lack talent, at least tier one talent, and lack of athleticism. While Howard has been a scoring machine, it has taken him to carry the team far too much with his scoring. Right now, I see they have three legit D1 players and remainder is role players. Theo John surprised me, but he is a ten minute guy on a really good team. They need better players moving forward because Wojo has not shown that he is guy who is going outcoach anyone.
On a positive note, the team has provided some exciting moments and fun games to be at or watch on TV. That has made this season improvement to me. But, it really does come down to winning when it counts and I do not have much confidence this team is playing the second weekend of the tourney. Sadly, I do think some of the good luck this season created overly high expectations from some fans.
I respect you Goose, but the tone of this post and board sounds eerily close to Scoop right after IU. Love it. Keep it up.
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For me, coaches need to win in March. November, December, January, and February no matta, hey?
So why were you complaining about losses in November?
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Cheeks
There is still a lot of work to be done. Many on here thought this was a 9-10 man deep team and that did not pan out. I will agree that there is improvement this season, but I cannot major steps forward. IMO, the best two best teams we beat were Nova and Buffalo, both at home and rest of W's were fairly close contests against fair competition. At no point this season did I think that the program finally has turned the corner.
Basically, I feel similar to how I felt going into the season. They lack talent, at least tier one talent, and lack of athleticism. While Howard has been a scoring machine, it has taken him to carry the team far too much with his scoring. Right now, I see they have three legit D1 players and remainder is role players. Theo John surprised me, but he is a ten minute guy on a really good team. They need better players moving forward because Wojo has not shown that he is guy who is going outcoach anyone.
On a positive note, the team has provided some exciting moments and fun games to be at or watch on TV. That has made this season improvement to me. But, it really does come down to winning when it counts and I do not have much confidence this team is playing the second weekend of the tourney. Sadly, I do think some of the good luck this season created overly high expectations from some fans.
El. Oh. El.
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Colt
My tone really is not meant to be negative. I think there have been steps forward, just a lot left to be done. I have not seen the three losses because out of the country and my comments are based off 30 games, not three. To sum it, happy to see the progress, but not planning FF tickets for this or next season.
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Colt
My tone really is not meant to be negative. I think there have been steps forward, just a lot left to be done. I have not seen the three losses because out of the country and my comments are based off 30 games, not three. To sum it, happy to see the progress, but not planning FF tickets for this or next season.
FF= Fiserv Forum or Final Four? I put my order in for the Final Four.
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Dr. B
Final Four. I am planning on tickets for the other FF.
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Cheeks
There is still a lot of work to be done. Many on here thought this was a 9-10 man deep team and that did not pan out. I will agree that there is improvement this season, but I cannot major steps forward. IMO, the best two best teams we beat were Nova and Buffalo, both at home and rest of W's were fairly close contests against fair competition. At no point this season did I think that the program finally has turned the corner.
Basically, I feel similar to how I felt going into the season. They lack talent, at least tier one talent, and lack of athleticism. While Howard has been a scoring machine, it has taken him to carry the team far too much with his scoring. Right now, I see they have three legit D1 players and remainder is role players. Theo John surprised me, but he is a ten minute guy on a really good team. They need better players moving forward because Wojo has not shown that he is guy who is going outcoach anyone.
On a positive note, the team has provided some exciting moments and fun games to be at or watch on TV. That has made this season improvement to me. But, it really does come down to winning when it counts and I do not have much confidence this team is playing the second weekend of the tourney. Sadly, I do think some of the good luck this season created overly high expectations from some fans.
I have been of the opinion next year is the dream team because we will have a point guard. I have said for years College basketball is a guards game and PG most critical, peeps finally came around on that one. We should have quality guards and bigs next year. Howard is the unknown and he is going to have to play some SG next year. I still like this team in certain matchups but know we can get blown out against the wrong team. Crapshoot .... depends totally on who we play.
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Dr. B
Final Four. I am planning on tickets for the other FF.
Goose,
Worst case, 2nd in BE regular season. Bye earned. 6-3 on the road, only BE Team with a winning road record for the entire season. Wooden Finalist. BE Rookie of the Year finalist. Likely BE 2nd team finalist. Vastly improved defense that I didn't think was even possible.
The games MU has lost have been because of turnovers. Fixable especially considering of Wojo's offensive past performance. Unforced. Teachable. The round robin is a killer for the BEAST.
This team needed adversity. It will bounce back. Plenty to fix as I have pointed out. That said, this team can beat any team in the country. I plopped down $9000 to order tickets all the way to JayBee's trailer park double-wide in April. I honestly can't believe you passed. It's been a fun year. Really only Indiana has beat us.
Cheers! See you in Minnie as I know you can always get tickets.
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For me, coaches need to win in March. November, December, January, and February no matta, hey?
If you don't win in those other months, then you are not playing after the first weekend in March.
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For me, coaches need to win in March. November, December, January, and February no matta, hey?
So the entire season comes down to 3 regular season games, Conference tournament and NCAA tournament. You'd rather judge a coach and team at 12-28 (13-28 with play in game) with both tournament championships than go 28-5 with the regular season championship.
That's ridiculous. And I know it'd likely not happen but that is essentially what you just said.
Let's say after four years you had your choice of these March records which would you choose?
A) 6-6
B) 12-14
C) 10-9
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Goose,
Worst case, 2nd in BE regular season. Bye earned. 6-3 on the road, only BE Team with a winning road record for the entire season. Wooden Finalist. BE Rookie of the Year finalist. Likely BE 2nd team finalist. Vastly improved defense that I didn't think was even possible.
The games MU has lost have been because of turnovers. Fixable especially considering of Wojo's offensive past performance. Unforced. Teachable. The round robin is a killer for the BEAST.
This team needed adversity. It will bounce back. Plenty to fix as I have pointed out. That said, this team can beat any team in the country. I plopped down $9000 to order tickets all the way to JayBee's trailer park double-wide in April. I honestly can't believe you passed. It's been a fun year. Really only Indiana has beat us.
Cheers! See you in Minnie as I know you can always get tickets.
You forgot coach of the year candidate
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So why were you complaining about losses in November?
Because it was painfully obvious, that in year 5, we were still short on talent and coaching.
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Because it was painfully obvious, that in year 5, we were still short on talent and coaching.
Teams that are ranked as high as 10 in March and who will finish second in a top 5 conference aren’t that short of either.
Especially one where there are no seniors who are productive players.
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I have said for years College basketball is a guards game and PG most critical, peeps finally came around on that one.
Wow, Nostradamus is here among us
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What a silly discussion, it is all about next year. That is why he plays Joey so much. Who cares about the past three games, they are learning experiences. Don't fight the learning curve, it is science. I see it at work with the coach, players, fans, administration and even Scoop.
Some of us are slow learners, but we all learn.
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Wow, Nostradamus is here among us
Oh ... so it was chicos who convinced every single basketball analyst in America to utter "basketball is a guard's game" during every single broadcast for the last decade-plus!
What a silly discussion, it is all about next year. That is why he plays Joey so much. Who cares about the past three games, they are learning experiences. Don't fight the learning curve, it is science. I see it at work with the coach, players, fans, administration and even Scoop.
Some of us are slow learners, but we all learn.
Huh?
Only those who you think Wojo is about anything but winning this season are the slow learners.
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Cheeks
There is still a lot of work to be done. Many on here thought this was a 9-10 man deep team and that did not pan out. I will agree that there is improvement this season, but I cannot major steps forward. IMO, the best two best teams we beat were Nova and Buffalo, both at home and rest of W's were fairly close contests against fair competition. At no point this season did I think that the program finally has turned the corner.
Basically, I feel similar to how I felt going into the season. They lack talent, at least tier one talent, and lack of athleticism. While Howard has been a scoring machine, it has taken him to carry the team far too much with his scoring. Right now, I see they have three legit D1 players and remainder is role players. Theo John surprised me, but he is a ten minute guy on a really good team. They need better players moving forward because Wojo has not shown that he is guy who is going outcoach anyone.
On a positive note, the team has provided some exciting moments and fun games to be at or watch on TV. That has made this season improvement to me. But, it really does come down to winning when it counts and I do not have much confidence this team is playing the second weekend of the tourney. Sadly, I do think some of the good luck this season created overly high expectations from some fans.
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What a silly discussion, it is all about next year. That is why he plays Joey so much. Who cares about the past three games, they are learning experiences. Don't fight the learning curve, it is science. I see it at work with the coach, players, fans, administration and even Scoop.
Some of us are slow learners, but we all learn.
I thought last year was prep for this year?
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Wow, Nostradamus is here among us
Nope, just someone with a pair of eyes and common sense, but for years here I was challenged that it wasn't a guards game. Literally years. That push back finally stopped with everyone finally caught up. The 3 point line changed basketball fundamentally. Plus, great big dudes are in very short supply, you can't just go down to the corner gym to get one. College coaches realized this, and knew if you had a great PG and solid guards, you could play with anyone assuming you had at least decent height to rebound, set some picks, etc. Too many were caught up in what basketball used to be to not realize what it was becoming.
Do a search here for "guards game" going back 2008 to 2014 and see how much push back there was. It's quite funny now to look at it.
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Oh ... so it was chicos who convinced every single basketball analyst in America to utter "basketball is a guard's game" during every single broadcast for the last decade-plus!
Nope.....but as I told Waldo, go back and do a search here and how many people were defiant it wasn't a guards game. Constantly saying we needed a powerful 5 and 4 to have any chance of winning.
And the guards game mantra from analysts (EVERY ALWAYS NEVER = LAZY) by no means were saying that in unanamity more than a decade ago (which is what decade plus means).
4ever, who I love to death here, and I had strong disagreements on this along with many others.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=22131.msg241988#msg241988
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=19309.msg195641#msg195641
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=530.msg3613#msg3613
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Guilty as charged, my brother.
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Nope.....but as I told Waldo, go back and do a search here and how many people were defiant it wasn't a guards game. Constantly saying we needed a powerful 5 and 4 to have any chance of winning.
And the guards game mantra from analysts (EVERY ALWAYS NEVER = LAZY) by no means were saying that in unanamity more than a decade ago (which is what decade plus means).
Ego much?
And yes, analysts, sportswriters, coaches and many others have been saying basketball is a guard's game for well over a decade. Just because you have been parroting it over and over as an anonymous interwebs dude for years doesn't mean you invented it.
Now, "4 or 5 years to judge" ... maybe I'll give you that one. Take the win and be satisfied, chicos!
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Brother and Sister Scoopers:
Are you people nuts? Anyone who opposes a contract extension needs to be taken out, put underneath the stands at the old Bradley Center as the wrecking ball comes in and feel their fate. You folks don't get it.
Peoples Exhibit 1: Wojo inherited a Dumpster Fire. We can argue all day whether the Hillbilly was guilty of arson, but the fact remains that five years ago, the program was on fire and about to burn out. Coach Wojo stopped the burning and raised us up to a program that again is receiving national attention. We made the Top 10 and probably will still be in the Top 25 this year. No, this is not Coach McGuire's team, but we're headed there.
Peoples Exhibit 2: If we don't renew Coach Wojo, we're sending a signal. Sleeze like the Red Rodent will use the sign against us. Folks, it costs a couple of years of a Division 1 salary to complete in this world, which is what we would lose if Coach Wojo were ever terminated.
Peoples Exhibit 3: Were Wojo to be terminated, we would regress from where we are today. Short of going back to Shaka ("He's coming... He's coming!"), who would we hire and how long would it take to get us back to where we are today? Folks, this Warrior is tired of rebuilding. I want us back to the Final Four and another banner next to 77. Changing coaches again isn't going to get us there in my lifetime nor will it do so in the lifetimes of most Scoopers.
Look, each of the last three games we lost were winnable and we should have won all three. But what I see on this board is people who see national prominence in our near future and then watch our team blow a chance at something special. Yes, I'm frustrated at that too, but get real. I think this frustrates Coach Wojo more than we see in his public pronouncements but what do you expect him to do? Throw the team under the bus? Talk about a quick way to lose you team, that's it!
As a final thought, take a hard look at Coach McGuire's record. We lost to SIU in the 1967 NIT final. In 1969, we were one missed free throw away from the Final 4. In 1971, we lost to a middling Ohio State team. In 1973, a young Bobby Knight team beat us and in 1974, we lost after our coach took two technicals in the NatChamp game. 1975 was a disappointment and 1976 was an unfortunate situation in that we were matched up in the regional final against the last team ever to go unbeaten in a season. God help us if we would have had Scoop back then.
Patience is not a virtue in this room, but some of it would be helpful.
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As a final thought, take a hard look at Coach McGuire's record. We lost to SIU in the 1967 NIT final. In 1969, we were one missed free throw away from the Final 4. In 1971, we lost to a middling Ohio State team. In 1973, a young Bobby Knight team beat us and in 1974, we lost after our coach took two technicals in the NatChamp game. 1975 was a disappointment and 1976 was an unfortunate situation in that we were matched up in the regional final against the last team ever to go unbeaten in a season. God help us if we would have had Scoop back then.
Allow me to clarify:
1967: Walt "Clyde" Frazier was a member of that SIU team.
1969: vs. Purdue (with Rick Mount) at the Field House in Madison. #51 never was a reliable free throw shooter.
1971: vs tOSU in Athen, GA. Luke Witte and Jim Cleamons were part of that team and they were good. #14 fouled out for the first time ever in either high school or college.
You have 1973 listed vs IU. I believe losing to IU in Nashville occured in 1972 after losing #22 to the ABA in February.
1974: vs. NCState with David Thompson and Monte Towe on their home court in Greenboro in the Monday night Championship Game
1976: vs. IU in Baton Rouge. IU was loaded with Kent Benson, Quinn Buckner, Scott May, Tom Abernethy, and Bob Wilkerson--all played in the NBA
What this really shows, and you younguns take note, is just what a powerhouse Al built and sustained for years. When its said that you want to compete at the highest level--this is the highest level.
Hank, Rick, Bob, Kevin, Mike, Tom, Buzz, and Wojo have not built anything near that successful and certainly don't come close to sustaining it.
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Lets not start comparing wojo to AL that is apples to oranges all day.
Al took 3 seasons to build his program, he was in the ncaa tourney every season (NIT champ 70 of course / snub), and was an AP top 5 program for the last 7 years of his career.
The issues so far have been lack of accomplishment for the type of salary we are paying the guy. Hes one of the highest paid coaches in the nation and we have gone nowhere up until this season, and the wheels are falling off at the worst possible time.
The question is if we don't make say a sweet 16 at the very least this year or next year, why should we expect any other result down the road. The roster he will have on paper next year is elite caliber and anything less than a deep run should be considered a total failure.
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As a final thought, take a hard look at Coach McGuire's record. We lost to SIU in the 1967 NIT final. In 1969, we were one missed free throw away from the Final 4. In 1971, we lost to a middling Ohio State team. In 1973, a young Bobby Knight team beat us and in 1974, we lost after our coach took two technicals in the NatChamp game. 1975 was a disappointment and 1976 was an unfortunate situation in that we were matched up in the regional final against the last team ever to go unbeaten in a season. God help us if we would have had Scoop back then.
Allow me to clarify:
1967: Walt "Clyde" Frazier was a member of that SIU team.
1969: vs. Purdue (with Rick Mount) at the Field House in Madison. #51 never was a reliable free throw shooter.
1971: vs tOSU in Athen, GA. Luke Witte and Jim Cleamons were part of that team and they were good. #14 fouled out for the first time ever in either high school or college.
You have 1973 listed vs IU. I believe losing to IU in Nashville occured in 1972 after losing #22 to the ABA in February.
1974: vs. NCState with David Thompson and Monte Towe on their home court in Greenboro in the Monday night Championship Game
1976: vs. IU in Baton Rouge. IU was loaded with Kent Benson, Quinn Buckner, Scott May, Tom Abernethy, and Bob Wilkerson--all played in the NBA
What this really shows, and you younguns take note, is just what a powerhouse Al built and sustained for years. When its said that you want to compete at the highest level--this is the highest level.
Hank, Rick, Bob, Kevin, Mike, Tom, Buzz, and Wojo have not built anything near that successful and certainly don't come close to sustaining it.
Brother 4Ever, I remember most of those games (even the SIU Clyde Frazier game) and you're right, we played the best. But along the way, we choked as well. I really thought Nashville was 1973 (I was at that game, yuck) because I drove to Memorial Gym. My point is that it took 13 years to get the NatChamp from Coach McGuire. Coach Wojo has not gotten the team to that level.
But, Brother 4Ever, do you think switching leadership now -- or anyone else for that matter -- will get us there more efficiently than our present course? I sure as heck don't and I don't want to start over. I'm tired of starting over.
I've been frustrated with our beloved Warriors as of late -- and was after Indiana and Kansas. But I haven't lit my torch and am not ready for a stakeburning out in front of Joan of Arc Chapel. I'm very optimistic that amid my swearing after the 18-0 run by Seton Hall, we're still headed where we should be.
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As a final thought, take a hard look at Coach McGuire's record. We lost to SIU in the 1967 NIT final. In 1969, we were one missed free throw away from the Final 4. In 1971, we lost to a middling Ohio State team. In 1973, a young Bobby Knight team beat us and in 1974, we lost after our coach took two technicals in the NatChamp game. 1975 was a disappointment and 1976 was an unfortunate situation in that we were matched up in the regional final against the last team ever to go unbeaten in a season. God help us if we would have had Scoop back then.
Allow me to clarify:
1967: Walt "Clyde" Frazier was a member of that SIU team.
1969: vs. Purdue (with Rick Mount) at the Field House in Madison. #51 never was a reliable free throw shooter.
1971: vs tOSU in Athen, GA. Luke Witte and Jim Cleamons were part of that team and they were good. #14 fouled out for the first time ever in either high school or college.
You have 1973 listed vs IU. I believe losing to IU in Nashville occured in 1972 after losing #22 to the ABA in February.
1974: vs. NCState with David Thompson and Monte Towe on their home court in Greenboro in the Monday night Championship Game
1976: vs. IU in Baton Rouge. IU was loaded with Kent Benson, Quinn Buckner, Scott May, Tom Abernethy, and Bob Wilkerson--all played in the NBA
What this really shows, and you younguns take note, is just what a powerhouse Al built and sustained for years. When its said that you want to compete at the highest level--this is the highest level.
Hank, Rick, Bob, Kevin, Mike, Tom, Buzz, and Wojo have not built anything near that successful and certainly don't come close to sustaining it.
Yeah any youngin can watch YouTube and read Wikipedia and old newspaper articles you aren't telling any young person anything new.
Al was 6-6 in the month of March after 4yrs you say that's the only month that matters so maybe you're right thank goodness there wasn't a scoop back then for you to proclaim what a bust that Al was at that point.
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The issues so far have been lack of accomplishment for the type of salary we are paying the guy. Hes one of the highest paid coaches in the nation and we have gone nowhere up until this season, and the wheels are falling off at the worst possible time.
He's nowhere close to being one of the highest-paid coaches in the nation.
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Mike Deane's seat belt.Get your facts straight before you post.
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When I look at this year's team, the lack of athleticism stands out. That has been a fundamental flaw in Wojo's recruiting to this point. The game is played on a 94 ft floor and we can't compete with quicker teams.
More disturbing to me is other teams have shown how to beat MU and seemingly, Wojo can't answer that challenge. This doesn't bode well for a deep Tourney run. So, what's the answer? I don't know, but it's disturbing that the staff hasn't gotten the necessary talent, or mis-evaluated talent, to strengthen these weaknesses. As for Wojo, I expected more by this point, particularly with in game adjustments.
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When I look at this year's team, the lack of athleticism stands out. That has been a fundamental flaw in Wojo's recruiting to this point. The game is played on a 94 ft floor and we can't compete with quicker teams.
More disturbing to me is other teams have shown how to beat MU and seemingly, Wojo can't answer that challenge. This doesn't bode well for a deep Tourney run. So, what's the answer? I don't know, but it's disturbing that the staff hasn't gotten the necessary talent, or mis-evaluated talent, to strengthen these weaknesses. As for Wojo, I expected more by this point, particularly with in game adjustments.
Looking ahead, we have Greg and Kobe and Samir coming in while Brendan and Jamal and Theo have a year under their belts along with the Class of 2020. The tide is turning.
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When I look at this year's team, the lack of athleticism stands out. That has been a fundamental flaw in Wojo's recruiting to this point. The game is played on a 94 ft floor and we can't compete with quicker teams.
More disturbing to me is other teams have shown how to beat MU and seemingly, Wojo can't answer that challenge. This doesn't bode well for a deep Tourney run. So, what's the answer? I don't know, but it's disturbing that the staff hasn't gotten the necessary talent, or mis-evaluated talent, to strengthen these weaknesses. As for Wojo, I expected more by this point, particularly with in game adjustments.
Completely agree with both your posts. Lack of athleticism is why SJU ran us over twice. The team also is a little soft imo. Other than Theo, and Ed to a certain extent, team lacks toughness. We need a Luke for sure.
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MU is 23-7.Ranked 16th in Nation.Going to be a 4 or 5 seed and people are still bitching.4everwarriors if you can't see the trajectory of the program you will never be happy.
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Al isn’t walking through the doors. The world is vastly different than when he coached, so is the game of basketball.
An extension is warranted and progress still being made. If a change were made, my God it would send a signal of how completely out of touch and out of our minds we are. Unless someone has Brad’s signature on a contract, why on earth would anyone even consider a change at this point with this trajectory?
God bless Al....he is dead. RIP. Move on.
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When I look at this year's team, the lack of athleticism stands out. That has been a fundamental flaw in Wojo's recruiting to this point. The game is played on a 94 ft floor and we can't compete with quicker teams.
More disturbing to me is other teams have shown how to beat MU and seemingly, Wojo can't answer that challenge. This doesn't bode well for a deep Tourney run. So, what's the answer? I don't know, but it's disturbing that the staff hasn't gotten the necessary talent, or mis-evaluated talent, to strengthen these weaknesses. As for Wojo, I expected more by this point, particularly with in game adjustments.
We have to get better, no doubt. We have to get more athletic, agreed. But we have gotten better and we have gotten more athletic. Next year’s team is already going to be more athletic than this year’s based on who is coming in, who is eligible and who is leaving.
Progress made and still going right direction in trajectory. No off court issues. Proud of this team, think next year could be very special if lines up properly.
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MU is 23-7.Ranked 16th in Nation.Going to be a 4 or 5 seed and people are still bitching.4everwarriors if you can't see the trajectory of the program you will never be happy.
I think a lot of it depends on when one became a fan of the program. Old timers like 4ever lived through the Al years and think that's a realistic expectation for the program.
Those of us who've hopped aboard the bandwagon in the 40+ years since might have less lofty - and I believe more realistic - expectations.
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Al isn’t walking through the doors. The world is vastly different than when he coached, so is the game of basketball.
An extension is warranted and progress still being made. If a change were made, my God it would send a signal of how completely out of touch and out of our minds we are. Unless someone has Brad’s signature on a contract, why on earth would anyone even consider a change at this point with this trajectory?
God bless Al....he is dead. RIP. Move on.
Not just brad, if Donovan became available I'd take him in a heartbeat
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Guilty as charged, my brother.
All good Doc.
And please understand that some of you guys saw MU for what it could be, the top of Everest. You have a different POV which many of us cannot get our heads around. I think your experience in seeing it gives you a feeling it can happen again, and that may very well be true. We may be selling is short on what is possible.
I am of the opinion the BBall world has changed so much it will be difficult if not impossible for a school like MU today to be MU of the 70’s, but I think we can get close. That said, what Nova has done and Gonzaga gives me hope, too. But I truly believe that will require some stability. Wojo is not a finished product, a lot of growth needed....agree completely. Need better players, but I don’t think we have come close to plateauing yet in the 5 years so I’m still buying.
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Ego much?
And yes, analysts, sportswriters, coaches and many others have been saying basketball is a guard's game for well over a decade. Just because you have been parroting it over and over as an anonymous interwebs dude for years doesn't mean you invented it.
Now, "4 or 5 years to judge" ... maybe I'll give you that one. Take the win and be satisfied, chicos!
Yup, I have a healthy one ESPECIALLY when it involves a few folks....and so do you and others. Definitely an Internet personality thing, not something I do face to face....but yeah, no doubt there are a few of you it is a bit of a pleasure proving wrong...and guess what, you would be stone cold lying if you said you don’t do the same thing to some posters here. You are wise enough to admit that....I think
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Not just brad, if Donovan became available I'd take him in a heartbeat
Hmmm.....I have been privy to too much of the background stuff at UF....no thanks. Great coach, but no thanks.
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I am an old timer too.I lived through the Al years.It was awesome.Times are different.I am happy how the programs trajectory is going.People are way to negative.Would I like to see the team have more guards this year? Absolutely.The staff knows the problem and have addressed it with McEwen and hopefuuly Torrence next year.Throw in Elliott too.I am a glass half full guy.There are many programs that would change places with MU in a minute.Lets try supporting the team and Wojo instead of bashing them.It may even help get a recruit.
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Hmmm.....I have been privy to too much of the background stuff at UF....no thanks. Great coach, but no thanks.
Didn't know there was dirt with him. Suppose he played under Pitino...
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He's nowhere close to being one of the highest-paid coaches in the nation.
I'd bet he's in the top 10% or 15%.
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I'd bet he's in the top 10% or 15%.
Probably, but all that means is one of the top 35 to 50 paid coaches out 350 D1 programs.
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I'd bet he's in the top 10% or 15%.
And we're in the top 10 or 15% off teams, so theoretically eye getting our money's worth eh?
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Brother and Sister Scoopers:
Are you people nuts? Anyone who opposes a contract extension needs to be taken out, put underneath the stands at the old Bradley Center as the wrecking ball comes in and feel their fate. You folks don't get it.
Peoples Exhibit 1: Wojo inherited a Dumpster Fire. We can argue all day whether the Hillbilly was guilty of arson, but the fact remains that five years ago, the program was on fire and about to burn out. Coach Wojo stopped the burning and raised us up to a program that again is receiving national attention. We made the Top 10 and probably will still be in the Top 25 this year. No, this is not Coach McGuire's team, but we're headed there.
Peoples Exhibit 2: If we don't renew Coach Wojo, we're sending a signal. Sleeze like the Red Rodent will use the sign against us. Folks, it costs a couple of years of a Division 1 salary to complete in this world, which is what we would lose if Coach Wojo were ever terminated.
Peoples Exhibit 3: Were Wojo to be terminated, we would regress from where we are today. Short of going back to Shaka ("He's coming... He's coming!"), who would we hire and how long would it take to get us back to where we are today? Folks, this Warrior is tired of rebuilding. I want us back to the Final Four and another banner next to 77. Changing coaches again isn't going to get us there in my lifetime nor will it do so in the lifetimes of most Scoopers.
Look, each of the last three games we lost were winnable and we should have won all three. But what I see on this board is people who see national prominence in our near future and then watch our team blow a chance at something special. Yes, I'm frustrated at that too, but get real. I think this frustrates Coach Wojo more than we see in his public pronouncements but what do you expect him to do? Throw the team under the bus? Talk about a quick way to lose you team, that's it!
As a final thought, take a hard look at Coach McGuire's record. We lost to SIU in the 1967 NIT final. In 1969, we were one missed free throw away from the Final 4. In 1971, we lost to a middling Ohio State team. In 1973, a young Bobby Knight team beat us and in 1974, we lost after our coach took two technicals in the NatChamp game. 1975 was a disappointment and 1976 was an unfortunate situation in that we were matched up in the regional final against the last team ever to go unbeaten in a season. God help us if we would have had Scoop back then.
Patience is not a virtue in this room, but some of it would be helpful.
Outstanding post. Every point is great.
What your paragraph about Al's March frustrations shows is how very difficult it is to win a national title. Al got close, year after year after year, but couldn't get even some of the most talented teams in the nation over the hump. There was an injury here, a guy going pro there, a matchup against an All-American here, a matchup against an unbeaten team there. That's sports -- it's always something.
Finally, in 1977, Al got his title. Interestingly, that season included a 3-game losing February losing streak. All 3 were at home, two were to unranked teams, the third was a double-digit loss to a Wichita State squad that would finish third in the MVC.
Six games into February, Marquette had a 2-4 record for the month. The only two wins were over a Loyola team that finished 13-13 and a Manhattan squad that was 13-14.
Can't you just hear the 77Scoopers?
"With so much at stake, why can't Al motivate those guys to play better!"
"We look lethargic coming out in the second half. Where are the adjustments?"
"We are underachieving. Al is just mailing it in."
"Looks like Al is gonna go out a loser!" (To which at least a few Scoopers would have responded: "Good! He can let the door hit him on his way out!")
We can sit here now and say that through all of his earlier accomplishments, Al "earned" a slump like that, but that's not how fans think at the time. Certainly not interwebs fans. 77Scoop would not have been kind.
Ten days ago, we were 23-4, leading the BEast, had beaten Nova, Wisconsin, K-State, Louisville, Buffalo, etc. We were a top-10 team, projected as a 3-seed with a decent shot at a 2. Many of Wojo's critics had backed off.
Then we lose 3 games, and it's as if the first 27 were a mirage. We're done!
Even an optimist like me is not naive enough to say this team will do what the 76-77 lads did -- turn things around and go on to win the title. But jeesh ... to write our guys off as dead (as many MU fans surely did 6 games into February 1977) ... I just don't get the over-the-top negativity.
Some Scoopers get their undies so twisted in a bundle that they'll spit out anything: Wojo is one of the highest-paid coaches in the nation ... Sacar is the worst 2 in the BE by far ... maybe we're a better team without Markus ... Wojo can't recruit ... Joey is garbage ... Morrow is useless ... not to mention all the wonderfully, ridiculously inaccurate musings after the IU and KU games. And let's not forget all the Scoopers who actually have come right out and said they know more about basketball than Wojo does.
Of course no Warriors coach has built anything like Al did. There's a reason why one-of-a-kind coaches are called one of a kind!
So because Wojo is not Al and never will be, we should start over, looking for the Next Al? Shaka was supposed to be the savior, wasn't he? Ask the folks in Austin how the saving is going so far.
And to top it all off ... unless some kind of scandal pops up, there is ZERO chance that Wojo will get fired. He almost surely will get a contract extension that will be (IMHO) well-deserved.
Pining for a different coach now is akin to pining for a romp in the hay with Scarlett Johansson. It's fantasy world!
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Outstanding post. Every point is great.
Finally, in 1977, Al got his title. Interestingly, that season included a 3-game losing February losing streak. All 3 were at home, two were to unranked teams, the third was a double-digit loss to a Wichita State squad that would finish third in the MVC.
I was on campus in 1977 and Brother MU, your post captured what the chattering class throught quite well.
We choked against Wichita State and looked terrible in February. The team was booed at the Arena as it walked off the floor after Coach’s last home game. Not sure Bill Neary ever forgave that.
What we never knew is what happened in practice and what Coaches McGuire and Raymonds did to ready our guys for the title. It isn’t that one suffers adversity, but what you do afterward that matters. That team showed that despite our weaknesses that year, despite a coach retiring and despite an angry fan base, they got up off the deck and basically told the whole world “We are Marquette ... screw you!”
I’m with our guys this year, win or lose, and am hopeful Coach Wojo is here for a long time to come.
Thanks Brother MU for the compliment.
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Outstanding post. Every point is great.
What your paragraph about Al's March frustrations shows is how very difficult it is to win a national title. Al got close, year after year after year, but couldn't get even some of the most talented teams in the nation over the hump. There was an injury here, a guy going pro there, a matchup against an All-American here, a matchup against an unbeaten team there. That's sports -- it's always something.
Finally, in 1977, Al got his title. Interestingly, that season included a 3-game losing February losing streak. All 3 were at home, two were to unranked teams, the third was a double-digit loss to a Wichita State squad that would finish third in the MVC.
Six games into February, Marquette had a 2-4 record for the month. The only two wins were over a Loyola team that finished 13-13 and a Manhattan squad that was 13-14.
Can't you just hear the 77Scoopers?
"With so much at stake, why can't Al motivate those guys to play better!"
"We look lethargic coming out in the second half. Where are the adjustments?"
"We are underachieving. Al is just mailing it in."
"Looks like Al is gonna go out a loser!" (To which at least a few Scoopers would have responded: "Good! He can let the door hit him on his way out!")
We can sit here now and say that through all of his earlier accomplishments, Al "earned" a slump like that, but that's not how fans think at the time. Certainly not interwebs fans. 77Scoop would not have been kind.
Ten days ago, we were 23-4, leading the BEast, had beaten Nova, Wisconsin, K-State, Louisville, Buffalo, etc. We were a top-10 team, projected as a 3-seed with a decent shot at a 2. Many of Wojo's critics had backed off.
Then we lose 3 games, and it's as if the first 27 were a mirage. We're done!
Even an optimist like me is not naive enough to say this team will do what the 76-77 lads did -- turn things around and go on to win the title. But jeesh ... to write our guys off as dead (as many MU fans surely did 6 games into February 1977) ... I just don't get the over-the-top negativity.
Some Scoopers get their undies so twisted in a bundle that they'll spit out anything: Wojo is one of the highest-paid coaches in the nation ... Sacar is the worst 2 in the BE by far ... maybe we're a better team without Markus ... Wojo can't recruit ... Joey is garbage ... Morrow is useless ... not to mention all the wonderfully, ridiculously inaccurate musings after the IU and KU games. And let's not forget all the Scoopers who actually have come right out and said they know more about basketball than Wojo does.
Of course no Warriors coach has built anything like Al did. There's a reason why one-of-a-kind coaches are called one of a kind!
So because Wojo is not Al and never will be, we should start over, looking for the Next Al? Shaka was supposed to be the savior, wasn't he? Ask the folks in Austin how the saving is going so far.
And to top it all off ... unless some kind of scandal pops up, there is ZERO chance that Wojo will get fired. He almost surely will get a contract extension that will be (IMHO) well-deserved.
Pining for a different coach now is akin to pining for a romp in the hay with Scarlett Johansson. It's fantasy world!
Mike....well done. Seriously, well done. Captured it well.
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Probably, but all that means is one of the top 35 to 50 paid coaches out 350 D1 programs.
Thanks. I think we can all do basic math. ::)
The question is, what is considered "one of the highest paid coaches"? If being in the top 10% doesn't qualify then is it top 5%? Top 2%?
BTW, I feel that Wojo is fairly compensated. I'd say his accomplishments are not as great as others in his pay range but MU is a big time program that will and should pay top money.
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Thanks. I think we can all do basic math. ::)
The question is, what is considered "one of the highest paid coaches"? If being in the top 10% doesn't qualify then is it top 5%? Top 2%?
BTW, I feel that Wojo is fairly compensated. I'd say his accomplishments are not as great as others in his pay range but MU is a big time program that will and should pay top money.
I’m guessing plenty of people don’t know there are 350+ D1 teams.
I’m guessing the answer will partly be tied directly to who has an axe to grind and how it helps him or her with their argument of pro or anti Wojo.
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And we're in the top 10 or 15% off teams, so theoretically eye getting our money's worth eh?
I'd agree.
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BTW, I feel that Wojo is fairly compensated. I'd say his accomplishments are not as great as others in his pay range but MU is a big time program that will and should pay top money.
The thing is... you don’t even know how he is compensated...
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When I look at this year's team, the lack of athleticism stands out. That has been a fundamental flaw in Wojo's recruiting to this point. The game is played on a 94 ft floor and we can't compete with quicker teams.
More disturbing to me is other teams have shown how to beat MU and seemingly, Wojo can't answer that challenge. This doesn't bode well for a deep Tourney run. So, what's the answer? I don't know, but it's disturbing that the staff hasn't gotten the necessary talent, or mis-evaluated talent, to strengthen these weaknesses. As for Wojo, I expected more by this point, particularly with in game adjustments.
Is it possible that wojo realizes his roster deficiencies and knew even as he was recruiting the kids? Perhaps he got the best he could and is making them as successful as possible. After all, success usually begets success. So, he's gotten this roster to #10 in the nation. On the recruiting trail now and in the future he can go after those athletes and high talent players now that he has a resume with winning on it.
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For me, coaches need to win in March. November, December, January, and February no matta, hey?
Hitler and Tojo had superb early season records. They didn't play well in the Tourney.
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I was on campus in 1977 and Brother MU, your post captured what the chattering class throught quite well.
We choked against Wichita State and looked terrible in February. The team was booed at the Arena as it walked off the floor after Coach’s last home game. Not sure Bill Neary ever forgave that.
What we never knew is what happened in practice and what Coaches McGuire and Raymonds did to ready our guys for the title. It isn’t that one suffers adversity, but what you do afterward that matters. That team showed that despite our weaknesses that year, despite a coach retiring and despite an angry fan base, they got up off the deck and basically told the whole world “We are Marquette ... screw you!”
I’m with our guys this year, win or lose, and am hopeful Coach Wojo is here for a long time to come.
Thanks Brother MU for the compliment.
Pretty sure the crowd was booing the refs, hey?
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Pretty sure the crowd was booing the refs, hey?
This. Bo got ejected. Al got T-d up, once? Twice? I don't recall. Weird wired crowd. Throwing toilet paper during half time going away ceremony for our lame duck coach.
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Finally, in 1977, Al got his title. Interestingly, that season included a 3-game losing February losing streak. All 3 were at home, two were to unranked teams, the third was a double-digit loss to a Wichita State squad that would finish third in the MVC.
I was a senior during the 76-77 season. Amazingly, those three straight loses were Al's final three home games -- DePaul in double OT, Detroit by one on a buzzer beater (Still recall Dickie V dancing on the court going completely nuts), and the blowout to Wichita St. and Bob Elmore.
At that point, many if not most of the students were thinking NIT instead of NCAA. So the 'we're screwed, it's over' mentality existed back then, too. But you didn't get to express and share your frustration and disappointment with a zillion other fans over the internet.
Then we closed out the regular season on the road with consecutive wins over Wisconsin, Va. Tech, Tulane, and Creighton before blowing a 2nd half lead and losing the last game to Michigan by one. That strong finish on a five game road trip got us a NCAA bid. And five more wins later, our only national championship.
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Why do people continue to say Al’s last home game had crowd booing the team. Simply not true.
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Why do people continue to say Al’s last home game had crowd booing the team. Simply not true.
Correct. We we're booing the crap out of the refs while Al was expressing similar displeasure with the officiating that night. The booing then morphed into the old 'Give Em Hell Al' chant. Nobody booed the team.
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We choked against Wichita State and looked terrible in February. The team was booed at the Arena as it walked off the floor after Coach’s last home game. Not sure Bill Neary ever forgave that.
My recollection is that we booed the refs a lot that night, including as they left the court -- I know I did. Neary was booed during the senior night introductions. Bernard Toone was a much more talented player and the students thought he should have started ahead of Neary. So a lot of folks booed when he was introduced to the crowd, which obviously was a terrible thing to do.
After returning from Atlanta, there was a rally on campus and members of the team spoke. At the end of Neary's brief remarks, he sarcastically said: "Thanks for booing me on senior night." I never have and never will forget that.
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I was a HS junior in Conn. the year MU won the title, so I can't say who booed whom. All of y'all who were there know.
But even a couple of folks who were there and said fans booed the refs talked about the general unrest of MU fans while it appeared a promising season was going down the tubes.
Everybody with half a brain knows that if there were interwebs back then, lots of anonymous experts on 77Scoop woulda been whinin' and wailin'.
The point wasn't to compare Wojo to Al or this MU team to our '77 heroes. It was that most teams face adversity within the course of a season. Heck, even after Al's Warriors recovered from their February malaise, they faced plenty of adversity in the tournament. The test is how you overcome adversity.
Not sure why so many Marquette fans are 100% certain that there is no way this team can overcome adversity.
I'm guessing it's many of the same folks who were 100% certain after the IU and KU games that we were gonna have a terrible season.
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Pretty sure the crowd was booing the refs, hey?
For sure. So tired of people posting the team was booed. I was in the student section right next to MU bench and the refs were escorted off by the police. Wild night in Milwaukee. Al went nuts, got tossed and the place went ballistic. Remember it like it was yesterday. Still have the Al handout they distributed to everyone from that night.
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Neary seems generally angry about a number of MU things from what some have said.
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My recollection is that we booed the refs a lot that night, including as they left the court -- I know I did. Neary was booed during the senior night introductions. Bernard Toone was a much more talented player and the students thought he should have started ahead of Neary. So a lot of folks booed when he was introduced to the crowd, which obviously was terrible thing to do.
After returning from Atlanta, there was a rally on campus and members of the team spoke. At the end of Neary's brief remarks, he sarcastically said: "Thanks for booing me on senior night." I never have and never will forget that.
I wass there that day as well. Neary had a legitimate complaint. Coach McGuire started Bill for two reasons. First, seniors in Coach McGuire's system were his stars. Period. Second, Bill brought a level of defense that Coach McGuire wanted in his line-up.
No matter how you don't like something, YOU NEVER EVER BOO a senior on senior day. You respect what they gave uss and their contribution to what we are. No wonder Bill was aggravated.
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The thing is... you don’t even know how he is compensated...
So you don't think his almost $2MM per year is in the top 15% ? Not sure what your point is. I concede I don't what he is paid this year but public records show he's very well paid and I agree with MU's decision to do so.
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As a final thought, take a hard look at Coach McGuire's record. We lost to SIU in the 1967 NIT final. In 1969, we were one missed free throw away from the Final 4. In 1971, we lost to a middling Ohio State team. In 1973, a young Bobby Knight team beat us and in 1974, we lost after our coach took two technicals in the NatChamp game. 1975 was a disappointment and 1976 was an unfortunate situation in that we were matched up in the regional final against the last team ever to go unbeaten in a season. God help us if we would have had Scoop back then.
Allow me to clarify:
1967: Walt "Clyde" Frazier was a member of that SIU team.
1969: vs. Purdue (with Rick Mount) at the Field House in Madison. #51 never was a reliable free throw shooter.
1971: vs tOSU in Athen, GA. Luke Witte and Jim Cleamons were part of that team and they were good. #14 fouled out for the first time ever in either high school or college.
You have 1973 listed vs IU. I believe losing to IU in Nashville occured in 1972 after losing #22 to the ABA in February.
1974: vs. NCState with David Thompson and Monte Towe on their home court in Greenboro in the Monday night Championship Game
1976: vs. IU in Baton Rouge. IU was loaded with Kent Benson, Quinn Buckner, Scott May, Tom Abernethy, and Bob Wilkerson--all played in the NBA
What this really shows, and you younguns take note, is just what a powerhouse Al built and sustained for years. When its said that you want to compete at the highest level--this is the highest level.
Hank, Rick, Bob, Kevin, Mike, Tom, Buzz, and Wojo have not built anything near that successful and certainly don't come close to sustaining it.
Just to amplify this. MU was flat out considered the #2 program after UCLA during this period. We were the team nobody wanted to play. I saw games where the opponents where intimidated before the game started.
Letting Hank take Als spot was one of the three great mistakes of Marquette history. We had opportunities to get guys like Denny Crum or even Dick Vitale ( who believe it or not, was the hot young coach of his day) who could have continued our legacy. Should have made Hank AD and hired a hot young coach.
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Just to amplify this. MU was flat out considered the #2 program after UCLA during this period. We were the team nobody wanted to play. I saw games where the opponents where intimidated before the game started.
Letting Hank take Als spot was one of the three great mistakes of Marquette history.
Brother Herm, we've debated this many times in Scoop and yes, you are absolutely right. Coach Raymonds was a great guy, a gentlemen and his family was/is nice people. But I did not and do not understand what the elders of Marquette University saw in him in 1977 that they did not see in 1964, when the passed him over for Coach McGuire.
My general recollection is that the university was quietly debating the efficacy of basketball. The faculty was idealistically griping that the highest paid university employee was the head basketball coach. The university was concerned that we were known for athletics, not academics and there were more than a few cheapskates at O'Hara Hall who were picking up pennies rather than harvesting $1,000 bills.
I wonder if anyone ever did an estimate of what the financial cost of that decision was. We had the direct costs in lost basketball tournament revenue and lost television revenue. But what about the impact on the student body, giving, grants and other programs that went elsewhere because Marquette's national visibility faded? The excellence of our basketball program by itself causes none of this but if the most visible sign of your excellence is your basketball program and it causes others to look at you, then the program serves its purpose.
These episodes are ancillary evidence why you renew Wojo and make sure he is happy/ As long as we're headed back to where we are, this guy needs to be nurtured, stroked and otherwise made happy.
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Brother Herm, we've debated this many times in Scoop and yes, you are absolutely right. Coach Raymonds was a great guy, a gentlemen and his family was/is nice people. But I did not and do not understand what the elders of Marquette University saw in him in 1977 that they did not see in 1964, when the passed him over for Coach McGuire.
My general recollection is that the university was quietly debating the efficacy of basketball. The faculty was idealistically griping that the highest paid university employee was the head basketball coach. The university was concerned that we were known for athletics, not academics and there were more than a few cheapskates at O'Hara Hall who were picking up pennies rather than harvesting $1,000 bills.
I wonder if anyone ever did an estimate of what the financial cost of that decision was. We had the direct costs in lost basketball tournament revenue and lost television revenue. But what about the impact on the student body, giving, grants and other programs that went elsewhere because Marquette's national visibility faded? The excellence of our basketball program by itself causes none of this but if the most visible sign of your excellence is your basketball program and it causes others to look at you, then the program serves its purpose.
These episodes are ancillary evidence why you renew Wojo and make sure he is happy/ As long as we're headed back to where we are, this guy needs to be nurtured, stroked and otherwise made happy.
Well, between promoting Hank and not getting into the Big East at the founding. Two weeks ago, MU was 23-4 and riding a 20-2 streak. Markus was a BEPOY and NPOY candidate. Now some want him fired? Again? Running the kind of program and getting the kind of representatives of the university that the powers that be want? AYFKM? Just plain silliness.
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Young Woj on the ESPNU right now
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Brother Herm, we've debated this many times in Scoop and yes, you are absolutely right. Coach Raymonds was a great guy, a gentlemen and his family was/is nice people. But I did not and do not understand what the elders of Marquette University saw in him in 1977 that they did not see in 1964, when the passed him over for Coach McGuire.
Hank wanted the top job. Al endorsed him, and the administration said OK. Moving Hank & Rick up one spot preserved continuity and was the easiest solution. But it set in motion a fairly quick decline that ultimately became a disaster.
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Altman with contract extension, I expect Wojo’s will be announced soon.
https://nbc16.com/sports/ducks/university-of-oregon-announces-contract-extension-for-dana-altman
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Brother Herm, we've debated this many times in Scoop and yes, you are absolutely right. Coach Raymonds was a great guy, a gentlemen and his family was/is nice people. But I did not and do not understand what the elders of Marquette University saw in him in 1977 that they did not see in 1964, when the passed him over for Coach McGuire.
My general recollection is that the university was quietly debating the efficacy of basketball. The faculty was idealistically griping that the highest paid university employee was the head basketball coach. The university was concerned that we were known for athletics, not academics and there were more than a few cheapskates at O'Hara Hall who were picking up pennies rather than harvesting $1,000 bills.
I wonder if anyone ever did an estimate of what the financial cost of that decision was. We had the direct costs in lost basketball tournament revenue and lost television revenue. But what about the impact on the student body, giving, grants and other programs that went elsewhere because Marquette's national visibility faded? The excellence of our basketball program by itself causes none of this but if the most visible sign of your excellence is your basketball program and it causes others to look at you, then the program serves its purpose.
These episodes are ancillary evidence why you renew Wojo and make sure he is happy/ As long as we're headed back to where we are, this guy needs to be nurtured, stroked and otherwise made happy.
Interesting take, and interesting question about whether MU ever did an estimate of the financial cost of the short-sighted, penny-pinching desicionmaking in hiring Al's replacement. I'm guessing the answer is no.
I have always wondered the same about the other major short-sighted decision MU made: giving up the medical school. I understand that it was a financial burden at the time, but other similarly-situated private schools managed. And now medical schools are huge status symbols and cash cows for universities. I'm sure schools like Loyola, SLU, Creighton and others are glad they made it to the era of big prestige and big research dollars. And while I know MU can never go back, I wonder how many leadership types wish we hadn't cut ours loose....